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| 09:34.22 | T0mW | seems I am forever rebuilding gcc |
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| 10:31.55 | LinuxCart | Hello |
| 10:32.22 | LinuxCart | I've seen the elinux wiki, and found it quite useful |
| 10:32.28 | LinuxCart | congratulations! |
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| 11:38.07 | prpplague | morning folks |
| 11:38.22 | T` | nite plague |
| 11:38.24 | T0mW | prpplague: up early |
| 11:38.27 | T` | just about to head to sleep ;) |
| 11:38.42 | T` | T0mW, !! still up? |
| 11:38.52 | T0mW | yeah |
| 11:38.55 | T0mW | compiling |
| 11:39.13 | T` | u dont need to be awake for it to compile ;) |
| 11:39.38 | prpplague | T0mW: yea had to take donna and one of the critters to the orthodontist this morning |
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| 11:44.39 | T0mW | ah, it is daylight |
| 11:45.28 | T0mW | playing with Thumb code and getting the library situation squared away |
| 11:46.06 | T0mW | then I'll have to research the copyrights of the code I'm using to see what notices / obligations are required |
| 11:49.29 | T0mW | I see that the Sony rootkit is a big deal |
| 11:57.08 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 11:57.19 | prpplague | T0mW: i hope they get the !#$!@#$ sued out of them |
| 11:57.31 | T0mW | heh |
| 11:57.44 | T0mW | you are still in a nasty mood |
| 11:57.51 | prpplague | yea |
| 11:58.04 | T0mW | time for a little girl watching (or heavy boozing) |
| 11:58.15 | prpplague | T0mW: tried both, doesn't seem to be helping |
| 11:59.03 | prpplague | T0mW: i've been totally frustrated with ppl coming into irc asking poorly worded questions and then when ppl try to help them, they act like they know it all |
| 12:00.03 | T0mW | the helpers or the helped act as if they know it all? |
| 12:00.05 | prpplague | T0mW: granted i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but i endeaver to ask question in an intellegent way inwhich a response from someone would actually provide usefully information |
| 12:00.14 | T0mW | ah |
| 12:00.15 | prpplague | T0mW: the ones that asked the question |
| 12:00.29 | T0mW | yeah |
| 12:00.31 | T0mW | btdt |
| 12:00.54 | prpplague | that this post to linux arm list |
| 12:00.55 | prpplague | hi all, |
| 12:00.55 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:00.56 | prpplague | ARM based new boards. can anybody help me .? |
| 12:00.56 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:00.56 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:00.57 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:00.59 | prpplague | |
| 12:01.01 | prpplague | --------------------------------- |
| 12:01.05 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:01.29 | T0mW | I like the people that try to give an opinion on GPL / LGPL copyright requirements and it is their own opinion, nothing based on research or fact |
| 12:01.50 | prpplague | jsut as a test i emailed the guy back and he responded from an email address from................ |
| 12:02.00 | prpplague | a freaking embedded outsource company |
| 12:02.09 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 12:02.53 | T0mW | I'm not even sure what it is that he is looking for... |
| 12:03.10 | prpplague | T0mW: exactly |
| 12:03.22 | T0mW | neither does he, apparently |
| 12:03.31 | prpplague | T0mW: they get these contracts to do arm dev, and they haveb't even a clue how to begin |
| 12:04.13 | T0mW | you get these people, the ones I chuckle about are those that get on the LPC2000 mailing list and want to design an embedded system and want to know what they have to do to get started |
| 12:04.27 | prpplague | hehe yea |
| 12:05.19 | T0mW | then there are the ones that don't bother with basic tools (objdump) and whine about their code doesn't work what is wrong with it, then they post an 80 line source |
| 12:05.43 | T0mW | I pass them by |
| 12:05.51 | T0mW | I'm not the "answer man" |
| 12:06.02 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:06.11 | prpplague | i usually don't bother either |
| 12:06.33 | T0mW | sometimes it is hard not to respond, I know the answer but I also know it won't do them any good to get it. |
| 12:06.40 | T0mW | ;-) |
| 12:06.59 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 12:07.27 | T0mW | "get a job as a junior engineer / electronics tech, then have them explain the basics to you" |
| 12:07.50 | T0mW | sometimes I just want to say that soo badly |
| 12:08.24 | T0mW | but that was the "old Tom", this is the "new Tom", I try to not pee on people |
| 12:09.19 | T0mW | I'm also procrastinating |
| 12:09.50 | T0mW | I've the software framework to start building for this project and am afraid to get started |
| 12:10.21 | T0mW | I have all the peices, but I'm not sure how they are going to fit together, yet. |
| 12:18.31 | T0mW | prpplague: I guess that I don't mind helping a fellow out, I just don't like doing their job for them. |
| 12:19.00 | prpplague | T0mW: _exactly_ |
| 12:20.08 | prpplague | T0mW: oh here is a great one |
| 12:20.08 | prpplague | I'd like to evaluate kdrive / tinyx on an EP9315 based board. Right now |
| 12:20.08 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:20.08 | prpplague | large and slow, especially at startup. |
| 12:20.08 | prpplague | Is there some precompiled kdrive package available? |
| 12:20.10 | prpplague | If not - what is the prefered way to build and install it? |
| 12:20.12 | prpplague | How about speed, footprint, ... when compared to a full blown xserver? |
| 12:21.29 | T0mW | Tom, do you have a general idea about how long the card |
| 12:21.30 | T0mW | responds with a busy condition after issuing the WRITE_BLOCK |
| 12:21.30 | T0mW | command? |
| 12:21.58 | T0mW | "no, I don't, why don't you compile the example I have for download and try it yourself" |
| 12:22.05 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:22.25 | T0mW | no shit, they want me to sell them on using my code |
| 12:23.06 | T0mW | I don't care if they use it or not, I have filestreams working through newlib to the FAT filesystem of the MMC drive. |
| 12:23.22 | T0mW | that is all I care about |
| 12:24.18 | T0mW | hopefully, someone will take that code and speed up the file delete process, it thrashes when deleting a file |
| 12:25.24 | T0mW | I haven't the time to, after all, I spent almost two months trying to come up with a solution to integrating the FAT filesystem into my program. |
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| 12:26.18 | T0mW | now, I give it to them for free and some of them whine about latency |
| 12:26.34 | T0mW | if it is too slow, fix it! |
| 12:27.47 | T0mW | prpplague: this doesn't make any sense, there is a project on sourceforge: Embedded Filesystem Library Version 0.3.4 |
| 12:28.12 | prpplague | oh? |
| 12:28.32 | T0mW | prpplague: it is under the LGPL, now who is going to take the trouble to adhere to LGPL with an embedded product? (static link) |
| 12:29.19 | T0mW | you cannot dynamic link in a small embedded processor, not enough Flash / RAM to store a linker |
| 12:29.29 | T0mW | dummies |
| 12:29.44 | prpplague | jeeze |
| 12:30.05 | T0mW | useless as ti^H^H on a bull |
| 12:30.11 | T0mW | heh |
| 12:31.03 | T0mW | oh well, I'm compiling compiling compiling, getting my dev tools in order |
| 12:31.33 | T0mW | good, that worked |
| 12:32.16 | T0mW | rm -rf /opt/arm-elf-3.4.3/ |
| 12:32.32 | T0mW | and start again to make sure _all_ of it builds correctly |
| 12:35.09 | T0mW | prpplague: oh, and here is a classic 'I know very little' question: "why do I have to apply patches to <some package> before I build it?" |
| 12:35.43 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:35.55 | T0mW | am i right? |
| 12:35.57 | T0mW | huh |
| 12:35.58 | T0mW | heh |
| 12:37.14 | T0mW | you could tell them that the patch turns off the floating point stuff in the package, but then you would have to tell them why floating point is a bad thing for an embedded system doing realtime |
| 12:37.39 | prpplague | hehe yea |
| 12:37.58 | T0mW | ah well |
| 12:38.22 | prpplague | this guy over in #hh.o is soo without a clue |
| 12:38.42 | T0mW | I keep telling myself that one time I was that ignorant, only I tried to think before I asked |
| 12:39.04 | prpplague | T0mW: exactly |
| 12:39.22 | T0mW | even delved into the code a few times to see if I could _learn something_ |
| 12:39.35 | prpplague | T0mW: i never ask about something until i have researched enough that i can speak informed about the subject |
| 12:40.56 | T0mW | well, maybe admit you know nothing about it and ask for some URLs |
| 12:41.32 | prpplague | yea i;ve done that before,but only when i had absouletly no clue where to start |
| 12:42.20 | T0mW | who's project maintainer at handhelds ? |
| 12:42.34 | prpplague | no idea, sorrt |
| 12:43.55 | prpplague | chouimat: just back from the pub? |
| 12:44.02 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:44.28 | clueless | he fell asleep at the bar |
| 12:44.29 | chouimat | prpplague: no ... back from my bed ... |
| 12:44.48 | clueless | yeah, his bed is in the bar room,heh |
| 12:45.09 | chouimat | prpplague: just forgot to change my nick last night |
| 12:45.34 | windbag | heh |
| 12:45.37 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:45.38 | windbag | that one fits me |
| 12:45.43 | windbag | lol |
| 12:45.50 | windbag | not taken either |
| 12:45.50 | chouimat | windbag: hehe |
| 12:46.31 | arrogantSOB | now, to go over on #hh and start opining |
| 12:46.43 | arrogantSOB | I need sleep |
| 12:48.26 | T0mW | prpplague: dave |
| 12:48.33 | T0mW | prpplague: dave, stop it |
| 12:48.38 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:48.45 | T0mW | prpplague: dave, remember your blood pressure |
| 12:48.50 | prpplague | T0mW: i can't heeeelllllpppppp meeeeee |
| 12:48.55 | T0mW | prpplague: they ain't worth it |
| 12:49.23 | T0mW | let them go back to windows |
| 12:52.23 | prpplague | oh !#@#$ , now we start with the "you're just picking on me!" |
| 12:52.25 | T0mW | prpplague: watch it! he is now gonna slash his wrists on the channel! |
| 12:53.02 | prpplague | troll troll troll |
| 12:54.53 | T0mW | prpplague: I did |
| 12:55.03 | prpplague | hehe you are sooo bad |
| 12:55.04 | T0mW | prpplague: POS too |
| 12:55.47 | T0mW | prpplague: obviously he's never heard of CUPS or lpr |
| 12:56.36 | T0mW | prpplague: Plouj, isn't that the sound a toilet makes when it flushes? |
| 12:56.52 | prpplague | hehe |
| 12:59.12 | prpplague | T0mW: i have never understood why ppl treat computers different that other things in their life |
| 12:59.20 | prpplague | "<Plouj> whats unfortunate is I remember someone recommending h5400 as a good end user pda" |
| 12:59.53 | prpplague | now if i substitute, crack for for h5400 and drug for end user pda |
| 12:59.53 | T0mW | [tom@BeastBox tom]$ whois 207.112.12.15 -h whois.arin.net |
| 12:59.53 | T0mW | OrgName: Primus Telecommunications Canada Inc. |
| 13:00.06 | T0mW | dumb Canadians |
| 13:00.07 | prpplague | would this guy have said the same thing? |
| 13:00.08 | T0mW | heh |
| 13:00.18 | T0mW | excepting chouimat |
| 13:01.44 | prpplague | T0mW: i am afraid he;s gonna start crying |
| 13:01.52 | prpplague | <Plouj> with a printer at least I could return it to the store |
| 13:01.52 | prpplague | <Plouj> who would buy my 3rd hand discontinued pda |
| 13:02.12 | T0mW | prpplague: there must be a 12-step channel he can go whine on? |
| 13:03.50 | T0mW | prpplague: what was he trying to do? Put linux on a pda that wouldn't support it? |
| 13:04.34 | prpplague | T0mW: he wants a magic bullet to install on his pda that will allow him to be one with the world |
| 13:04.44 | T0mW | nod |
| 13:07.11 | LinuxCart | T0mW: remember you have a pending dinner in Spain ;) |
| 13:07.23 | T0mW | yeah |
| 13:07.32 | T0mW | LinuxCart: only I don't travel |
| 13:07.41 | LinuxCart | really :( |
| 13:07.43 | LinuxCart | ? |
| 13:07.57 | LinuxCart | why¿? |
| 13:08.26 | T0mW | LinuxCart: no, when I was working at the last company, in 8 years I only went to another part of the United States on business maybe twise |
| 13:08.28 | prpplague | LinuxCart: you don't find many americans who travel outside the country any more |
| 13:08.36 | T0mW | s/twise/twice/ |
| 13:08.55 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah, the airport security check discourages air travel |
| 13:09.32 | T0mW | prpplague: next they'll have us doing strip-searches before we can board the planes |
| 13:09.37 | LinuxCart | well I can imagine :| |
| 13:09.55 | T0mW | I like my own bed to sleep in |
| 13:10.09 | T0mW | LinuxCart: thanks for the offer though |
| 13:10.14 | LinuxCart | airport are becoming good strip clubs :) |
| 13:10.17 | prpplague | LinuxCart: plus it is just a culture thing, you really don't find many americans who are interested in traveling overseas other than maybe to mexico for holiday |
| 13:10.43 | T0mW | yeah, there is still a lot of the US I haven't seen yet |
| 13:11.05 | LinuxCart | maybe silly, but aren't mexicans American as well¿? |
| 13:11.17 | T0mW | besides, if I want to feel like I'm in a foreign country, I can always visit New York or New Jersey |
| 13:11.22 | prpplague | LinuxCart: hehe, not legally |
| 13:11.53 | LinuxCart | I meant same as Canadian, Brazilian, Argentinian... |
| 13:12.01 | prpplague | i forget which movie it was in but someone said, "i hate traveling to foreign countries, they are always so....... full of foreigners" |
| 13:12.18 | LinuxCart | yeah :D |
| 13:12.19 | T0mW | LinuxCart: there is somewhat of an "american" bond |
| 13:12.20 | prpplague | LinuxCart: i do not understand what you are saying |
| 13:12.55 | LinuxCart | I mean I see American as a continent, same as Europe, isn't it? |
| 13:12.56 | prpplague | T0mW: do you understand? |
| 13:13.03 | prpplague | LinuxCart: ahh |
| 13:13.19 | T0mW | LinuxCart: somewhat like you feel that the russians are European. |
| 13:13.20 | T0mW | heh |
| 13:13.44 | LinuxCart | well Russia is a special case, it is so big |
| 13:14.01 | prpplague | LinuxCart: generally you would refer to the continent as north america, central america, or south america, if you speak of america without the prefix, you are speak of the country |
| 13:14.02 | LinuxCart | you don't know when in Russia starts Europe or Asia ends |
| 13:14.10 | T0mW | LinuxCart: Canada and the US are pretty close, we intermarry a lot |
| 13:14.40 | LinuxCart | I understand that you see that way, but for me the country is the USA |
| 13:14.51 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe except most of america is still upset over canada sending us celin dion |
| 13:15.03 | prpplague | LinuxCart: ahh |
| 13:15.17 | prpplague | LinuxCart: let me rephrase my statement then |
| 13:15.24 | LinuxCart | ok |
| 13:15.35 | prpplague | LinuxCart: plus it is just a culture thing, you really don't find many citizens of the United states of america who are interested in traveling overseas other than maybe to mexico for holiday |
| 13:16.33 | LinuxCart | all in all, I understand that you call yourself americans, after all I don't know if there is a name for USA people |
| 13:16.55 | LinuxCart | from Spain you have Spanish, for England English, for the USA... |
| 13:17.03 | LinuxCart | americans¿? |
| 13:17.09 | T0mW | yes |
| 13:17.09 | prpplague | LinuxCart: the accepted term is american |
| 13:17.50 | LinuxCart | umm if I were in your shoes I preferred to be called any other way |
| 13:18.03 | LinuxCart | i.e.: I prefer Spanish to European |
| 13:18.05 | prpplague | LinuxCart: hehe such as? and why? |
| 13:18.08 | LinuxCart | it is more exact |
| 13:18.35 | T0mW | LinuxCart: yeah, but, you've only recently become europeans |
| 13:18.42 | LinuxCart | well but after all, little ppl called Linux GNU/Linux |
| 13:18.53 | T0mW | LinuxCart: the european union and all that |
| 13:18.59 | LinuxCart | do you think¿? |
| 13:19.05 | T0mW | yes |
| 13:19.08 | LinuxCart | well the continent exists long time ago... |
| 13:19.48 | LinuxCart | anyway maybe you don't want to talk about this, after all this is a electronic device channel... |
| 13:19.50 | T0mW | LinuxCart: we travel so freely around the various states of country that we don't think of the borders |
| 13:20.22 | LinuxCart | so the states are very united.. :) |
| 13:20.29 | T0mW | LinuxCart: it is more like "I am from Pennsylvania" rather than "I am a Pennsylvanian" |
| 13:20.32 | LinuxCart | and they are americans... |
| 13:21.17 | LinuxCart | maybe it is cultural details |
| 13:21.32 | prpplague | of course the only state that you will find people refer to their state citizen ship is in texas, as it was a country before being a state, so many ppl will say they are texan |
| 13:21.59 | T0mW | LinuxCart: interesting thing is that each state is almost like it's own country: the laws differ somewhat, the government is different somewhat and culturally the people who live there look at life differntly |
| 13:22.01 | LinuxCart | ohh, I see nice matix |
| 13:22.18 | LinuxCart | so it is in Spain |
| 13:22.31 | T0mW | prpplague: texans are the exception, the rest of _allow_ them to stay in the Union |
| 13:22.39 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe |
| 13:22.50 | T0mW | s/_allow_/ us _allow_/ |
| 13:23.15 | LinuxCart | so dangerous are them¿? ;) |
| 13:23.31 | T0mW | no they think too much of themselves, heh |
| 13:23.34 | prpplague | ha |
| 13:23.58 | LinuxCart | well you can see the sample in your president.. |
| 13:24.09 | T0mW | LinuxCart: they are tolerated because their woman are so beautiful |
| 13:24.12 | T0mW | heh |
| 13:24.41 | LinuxCart | well, women are rarely not beautiful :D |
| 13:24.50 | T0mW | this is true |
| 13:24.54 | prpplague | LinuxCart: hehe, well we can talk culture and stuff, however politics and religion are off limits here |
| 13:25.08 | T0mW | can we talk about sex? |
| 13:25.19 | LinuxCart | I supposed, I didn't mean to start a politic argument |
| 13:25.28 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, online if tim isn't around, hehe |
| 13:25.33 | T0mW | true |
| 13:25.41 | LinuxCart | all that we could agree regarding the topic we could disagree in politics... ;) |
| 13:25.47 | T0mW | prpplague: but he reviews the log doesn't he |
| 13:25.48 | T0mW | ? |
| 13:26.05 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe yea, |
| 13:26.19 | LinuxCart | Moreover, I don't want to face that Tim |
| 13:26.25 | T0mW | prpplague: what is tim up to lately? |
| 13:26.28 | LinuxCart | jeje |
| 13:26.46 | prpplague | T0mW: giant db cluster |
| 13:26.51 | T0mW | right |
| 13:27.05 | LinuxCart | could we be back to the channel topic? |
| 13:27.18 | prpplague | hehe |
| 13:27.19 | prpplague | sure |
| 13:27.30 | LinuxCart | I've seen a nice micro, bloated up with features it is the OMAP |
| 13:27.33 | LinuxCart | do you know it¿? |
| 13:28.01 | LinuxCart | well I see in the wiki so you should know |
| 13:28.01 | prpplague | yes, several ppl here are familiar with omap |
| 13:28.03 | LinuxCart | ... |
| 13:28.26 | LinuxCart | how big is a project with omap intended to be¿? |
| 13:28.50 | LinuxCart | 10K, 1K, 1M¿? |
| 13:28.56 | prpplague | hehe, depends on what you are doing |
| 13:29.14 | LinuxCart | what do you mean¿? |
| 13:30.03 | prpplague | LinuxCart: you need to explain what you mean as "how big is a project?" |
| 13:30.25 | LinuxCart | haw many units¿? |
| 13:30.29 | T0mW | prpplague: cul |
| 13:30.36 | LinuxCart | s/haw/how/ |
| 13:30.59 | T0mW | I don't know OMAP |
| 13:31.03 | LinuxCart | T0mW: I have also seen your EP from cirrus |
| 13:31.17 | LinuxCart | it is short for me I think, only 2 serial |
| 13:31.21 | LinuxCart | :( |
| 13:31.27 | T0mW | Cirrus does make some interesting stuff |
| 13:31.46 | LinuxCart | you're right |
| 13:31.56 | LinuxCart | the micro is nice, but not for me |
| 13:32.05 | LinuxCart | did get with a price? |
| 13:32.14 | T0mW | no |
| 13:32.17 | LinuxCart | you know cirrus is quite located in the US |
| 13:32.30 | LinuxCart | is difficult to get that in Europe |
| 13:32.47 | T0mW | I don't think that you'll find a processor with more than two serial ports |
| 13:32.49 | LinuxCart | after the conversation with you I have documented a lot |
| 13:32.57 | T0mW | the Coldfire might |
| 13:33.04 | LinuxCart | (altough not enough) |
| 13:33.21 | LinuxCart | sharp has |
| 13:33.27 | T0mW | LinuxCart: from what I understand it is difficult to get many parts in Europe |
| 13:33.30 | LinuxCart | LH7510 |
| 13:33.50 | LinuxCart | not if you work with some traditional manufacturers |
| 13:33.57 | LinuxCart | Atmel, motorola, infineon |
| 13:34.02 | LinuxCart | etc... |
| 13:34.18 | T0mW | Sharp is japanese, they have some nice chips. I have the LH7A400 and LH79520 development boards here. |
| 13:34.26 | LinuxCart | really¿? |
| 13:34.32 | LinuxCart | waht do you think about them¿? |
| 13:34.38 | T0mW | very nice |
| 13:34.59 | LinuxCart | 79520 is nice, only 55mA |
| 13:35.00 | T0mW | especially the LH7A400, it is fast |
| 13:35.12 | T0mW | yes |
| 13:35.17 | LinuxCart | 12$ + - |
| 13:35.40 | LinuxCart | and seems to have correct linux support |
| 13:36.00 | LinuxCart | altogh maybe not good enough for people that's starting (like me) |
| 13:36.16 | LinuxCart | you were talking about people like me before, aren't you¿? |
| 13:36.17 | T0mW | I had been considering the LH79520 for the project I'm working on, but the specifications for the project didn't allow for it |
| 13:36.26 | LinuxCart | could I ask why¿? |
| 13:36.59 | T0mW | The customer wanted to build a cheaper version of the product for less than $40 |
| 13:37.27 | LinuxCart | so cheap¿? |
| 13:37.30 | T0mW | that was everything: PCB, cost of assembly, packaging and manuals |
| 13:37.30 | LinuxCart | wow |
| 13:37.55 | LinuxCart | and how do you know EP will be ok¿? |
| 13:38.09 | T0mW | LinuxCart: I got the cost of the board down to around $26, figuring $5..$7 for assembly labor |
| 13:38.32 | LinuxCart | only 26$ |
| 13:38.36 | LinuxCart | that's amazing |
| 13:38.47 | T0mW | that is in 5000 lot |
| 13:38.53 | LinuxCart | ok that's important |
| 13:38.59 | T0mW | manufacturing 5000 units per year |
| 13:39.16 | LinuxCart | a good amount |
| 13:39.34 | LinuxCart | and you include two micros as you explained me yesterday... |
| 13:39.45 | T0mW | yes, once you get up to 1000 units the cost drops about 30% for the parts |
| 13:40.12 | LinuxCart | and do you use (uC)linux¿? |
| 13:40.14 | T0mW | then it drops maybe another 5% at the 5000 unit level |
| 13:40.16 | T0mW | no |
| 13:40.24 | T0mW | no linux on this |
| 13:40.55 | LinuxCart | oh, in that way is easier if you have to include RAM and FLASH cost increase somehow |
| 13:40.59 | T0mW | the processor memory is too small: 512K Flash + 32K SRAM for the one processor, the other is: 128K Flash and 64K SRAM |
| 13:41.18 | LinuxCart | do you program it directly, pure C? |
| 13:41.24 | T0mW | yes |
| 13:41.35 | LinuxCart | what environment¿? |
| 13:41.40 | LinuxCart | gcc+kdevelop¿? |
| 13:41.48 | LinuxCart | or proprietary¿? |
| 13:42.06 | T0mW | that is on my website: gcc + insight debugger |
| 13:42.22 | LinuxCart | openhw.org¿? |
| 13:42.59 | LinuxCart | sorry .net¿? |
| 13:43.03 | T0mW | http://www.openhardware.net/?title=ARM%20tools&dir=ArmTools&file=InstallingToolchain.html |
| 13:43.41 | LinuxCart | I have it already |
| 13:43.45 | LinuxCart | I was checking |
| 13:44.14 | LinuxCart | do you use any support package to manage the peripheral¿? |
| 13:44.20 | T0mW | no |
| 13:44.22 | LinuxCart | I mean timers, serial |
| 13:44.29 | LinuxCart | you also program it yourself¿? |
| 13:44.39 | LinuxCart | that's time, isn't it¿? |
| 13:44.39 | T0mW | yes, it is a proprietary system |
| 13:45.34 | LinuxCart | oh |
| 13:45.37 | T0mW | well, it is a realtime system, I do have some timing constraints (performance) that are difficult to do with an off-the-shelf operating system |
| 13:45.50 | LinuxCart | then I understand |
| 13:46.05 | LinuxCart | but there are lots of RT OS, aren0t they¿? |
| 13:46.17 | T0mW | Communication with the main equipment that I'm attached to has a time interval that I have to meed |
| 13:46.25 | T0mW | s/meed/meet/ |
| 13:46.46 | LinuxCart | right |
| 13:47.02 | T0mW | LinuxCart: every operating system is "realtime" but sometimes it isn't real enough |
| 13:47.21 | LinuxCart | I wonder if I could use the toolchain you provide in your web for myself |
| 13:47.37 | T0mW | if you need response in seconds, use MSDOS, if you need less than one second response than any operating system could do that. |
| 13:47.50 | T0mW | but when you need less than 10ms response... |
| 13:47.54 | LinuxCart | uf |
| 13:48.21 | LinuxCart | then you need a PIC for each task :P |
| 13:48.31 | LinuxCart | jeje |
| 13:49.08 | LinuxCart | you seem tired again |
| 13:49.11 | T0mW | I have to pass a test at Underwriters Labratories where they short my input for 800ms and I am supposed to "see" that. That means I have to debounce the input and qualify it in 800ms. I keep that figure down to less than 300ms |
| 13:49.29 | LinuxCart | have you slept¿? |
| 13:49.35 | T0mW | yeah |
| 13:49.57 | LinuxCart | don't you have a timetable¿? |
| 13:50.01 | T0mW | no |
| 13:50.24 | T0mW | I do what I do when it is time to do it |
| 13:50.25 | T0mW | heh |
| 13:50.32 | LinuxCart | I wish I could |
| 13:50.50 | LinuxCart | I arrived home yesterday at 11pm |
| 13:50.56 | T0mW | well, having a tight project schedule will do that to you. |
| 13:51.33 | T0mW | I'm in the middle of the project: the hardware is done and now I have to start planning the system software |
| 13:51.33 | LinuxCart | that was because I was learning and because wife wasn't already there |
| 13:51.59 | LinuxCart | now I'm in the starting |
| 13:52.08 | LinuxCart | as you can see we are planning the HW |
| 13:52.24 | LinuxCart | and as this is the first important thing I do from the beggining |
| 13:52.33 | LinuxCart | I don't want to make any mistake |
| 13:52.48 | LinuxCart | that's the best threshold to just make the less possible |
| 13:53.09 | T0mW | I don't like the idea stage of a project, you have to consider so much, and do a lot of research before you can get started. Once you get started then it becomes more interesting. |
| 13:53.16 | LinuxCart | but I have so many doubts, so many things to investigate... |
| 13:53.24 | LinuxCart | yes |
| 13:53.30 | LinuxCart | I totally agree |
| 13:53.59 | LinuxCart | It even get worst if you are not telled what you excatly have to do or even worst |
| 13:54.12 | LinuxCart | ... your bosses tell you one thing and then another |
| 13:54.29 | T0mW | you are always going to make a mistake in the design, it may take several years before it shows up sometimes. Usually you find out 6 months after the product has been shipping to customers and you cannot fix it then. |
| 13:54.42 | LinuxCart | weeks of investigation directly to the thrash |
| 13:54.53 | T0mW | yes |
| 13:55.15 | LinuxCart | I know that but I hope to be very carefull |
| 13:55.19 | T0mW | this project I'm working on has taken me 6..7 proposals over the past 4 years |
| 13:55.28 | LinuxCart | and to tell the truth, knowing people like you helps a lot |
| 13:55.36 | LinuxCart | uff |
| 13:55.42 | LinuxCart | I haven't so much time |
| 13:55.55 | LinuxCart | in my case I need a lot of advice |
| 13:56.20 | LinuxCart | but don't worry, I want expected athem all from you ;) |
| 13:56.24 | T0mW | well, my customer just wasn't ready to do the project, they were still shipping the old product |
| 13:56.32 | LinuxCart | s/want/don't/ |
| 13:56.49 | LinuxCart | s/athem/all of them/ |
| 13:57.03 | LinuxCart | quite similar here |
| 13:57.26 | LinuxCart | we now want to do the step to the future range of products |
| 13:57.40 | T0mW | well, I spent a lot of time playing with stuff: webpal, tuxscreen, various development boards |
| 13:57.42 | LinuxCart | once Linux is introduced we will exploit that a lot |
| 13:57.55 | T0mW | that is where I get not only ideas but information |
| 13:58.34 | LinuxCart | I asked a MCF5272 board, but I'm still waiting |
| 13:58.44 | T0mW | once you start working with linux and some developemnt board / surplus board, you can see where problems are. |
| 13:58.54 | LinuxCart | I'm wondering now to ask for an ARM7 one |
| 13:59.10 | T0mW | LinuxCart: you have ebay in your country? |
| 13:59.29 | T0mW | ebay.com |
| 13:59.31 | LinuxCart | I think so |
| 13:59.34 | LinuxCart | let me check |
| 13:59.48 | T0mW | that is a good place to look for surplus electronics. |
| 14:00.07 | LinuxCart | I have it |
| 14:00.12 | LinuxCart | looking for surplus |
| 14:00.41 | LinuxCart | Chinese Military Air Force Jet Pilot Surplus Helmet |
| 14:00.45 | LinuxCart | that's what I get |
| 14:01.06 | LinuxCart | some other military stuff |
| 14:01.13 | T0mW | http://www.linux-hacker.net/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Session= |
| 14:02.03 | T0mW | good place to find out what hardware (surplus) will work with linux. You can get surplus / outdated boards and products fairly cheap, then practice putting linux on them |
| 14:02.57 | LinuxCart | as this is a company, I will exploit that and ask for some dev kits |
| 14:03.18 | LinuxCart | altough yours is a good advice |
| 14:03.41 | LinuxCart | they are not very expensive |
| 14:04.04 | LinuxCart | an spending 100-200$ is ok for development |
| 14:04.13 | T0mW | the last company I worked for was a small one: 15 people |
| 14:04.51 | T0mW | I had to fund some of the projects out of my pocket until they thought I had a good idea and then they would start paying for it. |
| 14:05.18 | LinuxCart | we're smaller, but I won't pay a cent |
| 14:05.32 | LinuxCart | i'm not so comprimised with my bosses |
| 14:05.53 | T0mW | maybe too small? |
| 14:06.20 | LinuxCart | altough if I had to I'd just do it for linux |
| 14:06.30 | LinuxCart | I'm on my own |
| 14:06.33 | T0mW | nod |
| 14:06.49 | LinuxCart | plus one engineer who's comingo only on mondays |
| 14:07.01 | LinuxCart | well that's the R&D dept. |
| 14:07.17 | LinuxCart | then we have the rest, administration, production... |
| 14:07.18 | T0mW | Well, I've always had an oscilloscope and meters of my own. Always have had electronics parts at my house. |
| 14:07.45 | LinuxCart | my wife wouldn't forgive me |
| 14:07.51 | LinuxCart | if I do that |
| 14:08.00 | T0mW | But, I am single, only married once for 6+ years, then decided not to do it again |
| 14:08.15 | LinuxCart | oh :( |
| 14:08.19 | LinuxCart | that's sad |
| 14:08.25 | T0mW | shrug |
| 14:09.05 | LinuxCart | for me, my wife is the most important |
| 14:09.15 | LinuxCart | very topic, but true |
| 14:09.23 | T0mW | my point is that I understand that with a wife + family it makes it hard to do stuff on your own time. |
| 14:09.28 | LinuxCart | I'm lucky |
| 14:09.48 | LinuxCart | true |
| 14:10.23 | LinuxCart | I manage somehow, now she works most time in the evening |
| 14:10.40 | LinuxCart | what do you think about intel PXA¿? |
| 14:11.12 | T0mW | I don't consider them, the customers I have don't do BGA |
| 14:11.39 | LinuxCart | and if you were allowed to use BGA¿? |
| 14:12.17 | T0mW | I'm not against BGA, just that it is more expensive to design with |
| 14:12.36 | T0mW | it is hard to cut + jumper a multilayer board |
| 14:12.39 | LinuxCart | true |
| 14:13.02 | LinuxCart | I'm not very keen on it as well |
| 14:13.27 | T0mW | also, you cannot build your own prototypes, you have to have the board built by someone who has the right equipment. The setup charge for BGA starts at $1500 |
| 14:13.38 | T0mW | that is just to solder the parts on for you |
| 14:13.46 | LinuxCart | umm |
| 14:13.54 | LinuxCart | we did a BGA board |
| 14:13.57 | LinuxCart | bluetooth |
| 14:13.57 | T0mW | but, once you get it done, then you can make thousands of them |
| 14:14.12 | LinuxCart | it was small BGA, but we managed to solder here with an air gun |
| 14:14.24 | T0mW | BGA is cheaper and more reliable, less chance of solder shorts. |
| 14:14.32 | *** join/#elinux GPSFan (n=Ken@65.121.49.208) |
| 14:14.49 | T0mW | LinuxCart: I am tempted to try it in a toaster oven |
| 14:15.12 | LinuxCart | I saw one page about soldering BGA on your own |
| 14:15.20 | LinuxCart | if I find it I will tell |
| 14:15.30 | T0mW | that is how I build my boards lately, I sqeegee the paste onto the board using a stencil, then reflow in a $69 household toaster oven |
| 14:16.02 | T0mW | GPSFan: morning ken |
| 14:16.16 | Wingnut | http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/ReflowToaster/reflow-hotplate.htm |
| 14:16.30 | GPSFan | T0mW: morning.. |
| 14:17.04 | T0mW | Wingnut: saw that, that is what got me interested, the stencil is working out pretty good for the fine pitch leads (0.15") |
| 14:17.28 | Wingnut | I've been wanting to do a project with that |
| 14:17.38 | LinuxCart | well, it's time to lunch for me |
| 14:17.46 | LinuxCart | 15:26 here, I'm hungry |
| 14:17.48 | LinuxCart | see you |
| 14:17.57 | LinuxCart | thanks for your help |
| 14:18.20 | T0mW | Wingnut: I tape everything down. you cannot do smd smaller than the 0.05" pitch that sparkfun uses while holding the stencil in your hand |
| 14:18.26 | T0mW | LinuxCart: later |
| 14:18.39 | Wingnut | hehe |
| 14:18.55 | T0mW | paper tape is your friend |
| 14:19.26 | T0mW | takes 10..15minutes to get the stencil aligned properly |
| 14:19.48 | Wingnut | why not place it on a tray before sticking it in the oven? |
| 14:20.40 | T0mW | that is not a problem, getting it into the oven. pasting the board isn't too bad, it is putting 142 SMD parts onto the board that takes time |
| 14:21.01 | T0mW | I have 29 10K resistors (0805) |
| 14:21.03 | Wingnut | hehe |
| 14:21.06 | T0mW | yeah |
| 14:21.31 | T0mW | 40 different parts and 142 total |
| 14:21.34 | T0mW | fun fun |
| 14:21.38 | T0mW | OH |
| 14:22.14 | T0mW | then digikey sent me the wrong part and I didn't discover that until they were soldered onto the board! |
| 14:22.33 | Wingnut | ack! |
| 14:22.54 | T0mW | fortunately they were SSOP-8 packages |
| 14:23.17 | Wingnut | ah...big enough to get on and off with a heat gun |
| 14:23.32 | T0mW | yeah, I have a hot-air pencil for that |
| 14:23.33 | Wingnut | I've soldered those with a soldering iron before too |
| 14:24.08 | Wingnut | we had one in this trailer hitch brake controller that one of my professors was working on for Blue Ox |
| 14:24.19 | T0mW | those weren't too bad, but I use the low-temp desoldering stick on the one board and shorted a TSSOP-20 package leads. |
| 14:25.28 | T0mW | so, I turned a simple job into a PITA because I still though that low-temp melt was the easy way to take the chips off the board. I ought to throw that stuff in the garbage where it belongs |
| 14:25.53 | T0mW | compile is done, time to do some testing |
| 14:53.14 | *** join/#elinux Soopaman (n=soopaman@66.59.138.125) |
| 15:23.24 | prpplague | LinuxCart: they scare you out of the channel? |
| 15:26.13 | *** join/#elinux eggers (n=eggers@pixpat.austin.ibm.com) |
| 15:33.26 | LinuxCart | no |
| 15:33.27 | LinuxCart | :) |
| 15:33.42 | LinuxCart | I went for lunch |
| 15:33.58 | LinuxCart | hopefully I'm here again and more powerful than ever .... :D |
| 15:34.13 | LinuxCart | jeje |
| 15:34.22 | prpplague | LinuxCart: you left #edev |
| 15:34.22 | LinuxCart | we were talking about the omap |
| 15:34.28 | LinuxCart | oh |
| 15:34.33 | LinuxCart | that |
| 15:34.59 | LinuxCart | it's because my target is not now embedded for fun |
| 15:35.09 | LinuxCart | but if you want |
| 15:35.13 | LinuxCart | I can return |
| 15:47.28 | *** join/#elinux thraxisp (n=thraxisp@ottgate.precidia.com) |
| 15:49.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: one of the upper management at aml uses html for his emails, should i bother tell him that its very irritating? |
| 15:55.41 | file[laptop] | headaches are bad mmmk |
| 16:04.17 | prpplague | so are brain tumors |
| 16:26.49 | LinuxCart | prpplague: I hope it's only a bad joke ... |
| 16:28.04 | prpplague | LinuxCart: ? |
| 16:36.23 | LinuxCart | prpplague: forgetit |
| 16:36.57 | prpplague | forget what??? hehehehe |
| 16:54.57 | CosmicPenguin | Heh - Greg KH posted a patch to the LKML to make all PCI symbol GPL only... :) |
| 16:56.00 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:08.12 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 17:08.12 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:08.20 | prpplague | TimRiker: hola smola |
| 17:09.28 | TimRiker | moin moin |
| 17:17.15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, here is a contest for sorphin to enter - http://www.pimpmyrack.se/ |
| 17:18.20 | file | I'm slightly disturbed |
| 17:18.58 | prpplague | file: really? we generally talk about you as if you are really really disturbed! |
| 17:19.17 | file | really? wow, what a world |
| 17:19.38 | file | today? no |
| 17:19.47 | file | I don't have anything to drink here |
| 17:19.52 | file | I should pick up some redbull and vodka though |
| 17:20.06 | prpplague | ew |
| 17:20.17 | file | it's a good combo :P |
| 17:21.04 | prpplague | sounds like that would have me wired like a 220 circuit |
| 17:21.15 | file | they cancel eachother out |
| 17:29.50 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 17:29.50 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:39.14 | *** join/#elinux LinuxCart (n=kvirc@212.106.245.186.adsl.jazztel.es) |
| 17:39.34 | LinuxCart | Hi again |
| 17:42.53 | *** join/#elinux markl_ (i=mark@dsl093-225-127.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 17:54.18 | prpplague | ok talking aobut weird |
| 17:55.11 | prpplague | i'm looking on these pages at different hacks and see this post - http://www.grynx.com/index.php/2005/08/07/sam-worlds-ugliest-dog/ |
| 17:55.55 | prpplague | ok so i've never heard or seen of this dog before in my entire life |
| 17:56.30 | prpplague | i'm done with the pages and so i go to cnn.com to see what up in the world |
| 17:56.36 | prpplague | and on the front page is this |
| 17:56.37 | prpplague | http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/22/ugly.dog.ap/index.html |
| 18:02.48 | LinuxCart | what a horrible thing! |
| 18:02.56 | LinuxCart | the dog and its dead |
| 18:03.28 | markl_ | that is one ugly dog |
| 18:06.01 | *** join/#elinux Genesis (n=genesis@dev.aimao.org) |
| 18:07.24 | Genesis | bonjour |
| 18:07.38 | file | 'allo |
| 18:08.51 | LinuxCart | ça va? |
| 18:09.08 | file | bien, et toi? |
| 18:09.22 | LinuxCart | moi aussi, merci |
| 18:12.04 | LinuxCart | http://www.revely.com/RMS100/AboutRMS100.htm |
| 18:12.16 | LinuxCart | do you know if 512KB of RAM is enough to run linux¿? |
| 18:12.26 | prpplague | no |
| 18:12.30 | LinuxCart | or (uC) |
| 18:12.41 | prpplague | nope |
| 18:12.53 | prpplague | LinuxCart: need atleast 1mb with 2mb prefered |
| 18:12.55 | LinuxCart | then what could be the purpose of this board¿? |
| 18:13.42 | prpplague | LinuxCart: not everyone runs a full operating system on their embedded device |
| 18:13.42 | CosmicPenguin | "The RMS100 is an ideal platform for moving demanding 8-bit designs into the world of 32-bit processing" |
| 18:13.55 | CosmicPenguin | migrating 8051 code into the 21st century, I presume |
| 18:14.28 | LinuxCart | I know that, but for a 8-bit upgrade it seems to much |
| 18:14.34 | LinuxCart | 512KB RAM |
| 18:14.38 | prpplague | LinuxCart: if your interested in that arm7tdmi from sharp, just buy a pixter |
| 18:14.43 | LinuxCart | you usually have 8KB |
| 18:16.17 | *** join/#elinux Crofton|laptop (n=balister@hc6521c88.dhcp.vt.edu) |
| 18:23.56 | LinuxCart | Can I buy that stuff in Spain¿? |
| 18:35.29 | LinuxCart | but pixter only includes 128K RAM, right¿? |
| 18:43.22 | prpplague | yea |
| 18:46.05 | LinuxCart | well, I maybe didn't explained I wanted to run (uC)Linux... |
| 18:46.11 | LinuxCart | and that's not enough |
| 18:46.39 | prpplague | LinuxCart: buy a juicebox then |
| 18:48.01 | LinuxCart | I'm looking... |
| 18:50.12 | LinuxCart | Again I'm afraid I can't buy that in Spain |
| 18:50.13 | LinuxCart | :( |
| 18:52.51 | prpplague | LinuxCart: if you can't buy a juicebox what makes you think you could get a revely board? |
| 18:53.13 | prpplague | LinuxCart: i'm sure there is someone on ebay that would ship to you |
| 18:53.27 | prpplague | LinuxCart: what is it you want to do? |
| 18:53.43 | LinuxCart | I want to "play" with an ARM7TDMI |
| 18:53.49 | LinuxCart | at low cost of course |
| 18:54.37 | LinuxCart | and I think that it is easier to buy a product focused to the bussiness market than to buy a consumer product you know in the us |
| 18:54.46 | prpplague | http://anyway.no-ip.org:8080/ep/44B0db/44B0db.htm |
| 18:54.53 | LinuxCart | moreover the shipment costs would do that unfeasible for a regular person |
| 18:55.55 | LinuxCart | I saw this yesterday |
| 18:56.16 | LinuxCart | how could I buy this¿? |
| 18:56.37 | LinuxCart | Ok |
| 18:56.43 | LinuxCart | I see some addresses now |
| 18:56.43 | prpplague | http://anyway.no-ip.org:8080/ |
| 18:56.51 | LinuxCart | how much does that cost¿? |
| 18:56.55 | LinuxCart | do you know that¿? |
| 18:57.08 | prpplague | SELLING PRICE is US$150.00 each (Development Board, JTAG interface card and 14 pin cable) |
| 18:57.44 | LinuxCart | umm |
| 18:57.51 | LinuxCart | that's more interesting |
| 18:58.12 | LinuxCart | I suppose you work with them, right¿? |
| 19:00.41 | LinuxCart | There's only one loacking detail that would make it perfect for me |
| 19:00.46 | LinuxCart | a third serial port |
| 19:00.51 | LinuxCart | :\ |
| 19:01.42 | prpplague | LinuxCart: no i've not purchased one of those, but i've heard from several people that they are good boards |
| 19:03.00 | LinuxCart | it'd be a good starting point |
| 19:03.20 | LinuxCart | what SW do you use to interface with the jtag¿? |
| 19:04.07 | prpplague | i have about 5 different apps i use |
| 19:05.25 | LinuxCart | are any of them GPL¿? |
| 19:31.37 | prpplague | LinuxCart: all |
| 19:36.20 | LinuxCart | would you see badly if I ask you their names or the web where I can find them¿? |
| 19:36.34 | LinuxCart | aer all of them neccesary¿? |
| 19:36.40 | LinuxCart | s/aer/are/ |
| 19:39.13 | Genesis | :) |
| 19:42.56 | LinuxCart | I now they are the typical newbie's questions, but I consider that myself |
| 19:43.07 | LinuxCart | I should start anywhere :) |
| 20:35.37 | *** join/#elinux darkschneider (n=gab@213-140-6-96.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 20:38.23 | Wingnut | does anyone have a good recommendation for an open source PCB layout program? |
| 20:38.37 | prpplague | Wingnut: yea |
| 20:39.55 | Wingnut | prpplague: what would you recommend? |
| 20:40.49 | prpplague | Wingnut: hehe i was waiting for you to ask hehe |
| 20:41.14 | prpplague | let me get the url for ya |
| 20:41.16 | Wingnut | that's what I figured...my internal timeout response expired |
| 20:41.42 | prpplague | http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ |
| 20:42.03 | prpplague | http://www.geda.seul.org/ |
| 20:42.49 | Wingnut | last time I tried to use gEDA it fought with me a lot, then crashed |
| 20:43.41 | prpplague | hehe yea its improved alot of the last year |
| 20:43.56 | prpplague | Wingnut: the only other app i can recommend is eagle |
| 20:44.02 | prpplague | Wingnut: the light edition is free |
| 20:44.11 | prpplague | Wingnut: but only does two layers |
| 20:44.48 | Wingnut | right |
| 20:45.24 | Wingnut | I'm hoping not to need more than 2 layers, but I may needseparate analog and digital ground planes |
| 20:45.51 | Wingnut | whoops, time for a reboot |
| 20:50.53 | *** join/#elinux jipi (n=jipi@cm191.delta245.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 20:51.01 | *** join/#elinux andersee (n=andersen@ip70-189-90-37.ok.ok.cox.net) |
| 20:51.01 | *** mode/#elinux [+o andersee] by ChanServ |
| 20:58.11 | *** join/#elinux Wingnut (i=mcrist@mknod.org) |
| 21:08.46 | prpplague | Wingnut: the next level up on eagle is just $50 iirc |
| 21:08.49 | prpplague | andersee: hey hey |
| 21:09.21 | prpplague | andersee: would you provide me with a little insight as the mind set for working with buildroot |
| 21:09.39 | prpplague | andersee: how are we suppose to judge about adding packages to buildroot? |
| 21:10.14 | prpplague | andersee: should we be adding everything under the sun that ppl want to add? |
| 21:11.38 | Wingnut | I'd rather see a modular way to add packages to buildroot |
| 21:11.57 | Crofton|laptop | open embedded :) |
| 21:12.15 | Wingnut | hehe |
| 21:12.16 | prpplague | Crofton|laptop: ugh |
| 21:12.22 | prpplague | Crofton|laptop: don't think so |
| 21:12.34 | prpplague | no offense kergoth, oe just isn't for me |
| 21:12.39 | Crofton|laptop | if you aren't careful, you will reinvent it |
| 21:12.59 | prpplague | Crofton|laptop: yea well, OE just doesn't work for me |
| 21:13.05 | kergoth | dave, i've not once seen you actually give it a try. when have you ever been in #oe asking a question? |
| 21:13.15 | kergoth | no offense taken, you're welcome to reinvent the wheel |
| 21:13.28 | Crofton|laptop | I just made my OE sysetm work again |
| 21:13.30 | prpplague | kergoth: several times over the last 2 years |
| 21:13.36 | Crofton|laptop | it was much better second time through |
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| 22:15.59 | Genesis | bonne nuit |