| 00:13.49 | *** join/#elinux thraxisp (n=thraxisp@ottawa-hs-209-217-124-202.d-ip.magma.ca) |
| 00:48.38 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 00:48.38 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 00:50.03 | *** join/#elinux joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@adsl-65-70-239-54.dsl.fyvlar.swbell.net) |
| 01:11.02 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy01.amd.com) |
| 01:11.02 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 01:14.16 | *** join/#elinux inv (n=inv@host35.180.219.81.magma-net.pl) |
| 01:16.46 | *** join/#elinux noclouds (n=mhfan@60.166.59.16) |
| 02:30.04 | *** join/#elinux Crofton (n=balister@66-207-66-26.black.dmt.ntelos.net) |
| 02:38.28 | *** join/#elinux Genesis (n=genesis@dev.aimao.org) |
| 02:39.55 | Genesis | bonjour |
| 02:57.51 | *** join/#elinux we0 (n=weo@p5499A018.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 03:06.38 | *** join/#elinux Soopaman (n=soopaman@HSE-London-ppp290826.sympatico.ca) |
| 03:25.28 | *** join/#elinux catastrop (n=catastr0@d14-69-178-65.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 03:26.14 | *** join/#elinux gnuder (n=gnudisti@dsl017-073-218.chi4.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 03:44.10 | *** join/#elinux hufnus (n=slonsiki@DSL135-071.LABridge.com) |
| 03:46.43 | kergoth | foo |
| 03:46.53 | file[laptop] | bar |
| 03:51.25 | *** mode/#elinux [+o Russ] by ChanServ |
| 03:52.03 | Russ | key kergoth |
| 03:52.21 | Russ | happy to say everything went good today |
| 03:52.35 | Russ | so if Tim is around somewhere writing a letter, he can stop |
| 03:53.44 | file[laptop] | he once was here, but now is not |
| 03:55.13 | kergoth | Russ: glad to hear it |
| 03:55.27 | kergoth | guess i'm waiting to hear from NCS to work out the details now |
| 03:55.33 | Russ | yup |
| 05:01.53 | *** join/#elinux kergoth (n=kergoth@c-24-118-213-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 05:01.54 | *** mode/#elinux [+o kergoth] by ChanServ |
| 05:24.53 | *** join/#elinux kergoth (n=kergoth@c-24-118-213-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 05:24.53 | *** mode/#elinux [+o kergoth] by ChanServ |
| 06:03.54 | *** part/#elinux joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@adsl-65-70-239-54.dsl.fyvlar.swbell.net) |
| 06:19.54 | *** part/#elinux octel (n=pkirk@cpe-66-75-20-105.san.res.rr.com) |
| 06:20.31 | *** join/#elinux octel (n=pkirk@cpe-66-75-20-105.san.res.rr.com) |
| 08:21.23 | pb_ | morning |
| 08:28.12 | *** join/#elinux CIA-15 (i=cia@flapjack.navi.cx) |
| 08:39.48 | *** join/#elinux Blue_Sky (n=smbd2005@pool-141-152-76-180.roa.east.verizon.net) |
| 08:41.24 | *** part/#elinux Blue_Sky (n=smbd2005@pool-141-152-76-180.roa.east.verizon.net) |
| 09:02.49 | Russ | morning pb_ |
| 09:21.01 | *** join/#elinux mhfan (n=mhfan@60.166.36.134) |
| 09:43.20 | *** join/#elinux neofob|cdc (n=tpham@bburg.californiadigital.com) |
| 10:40.43 | *** join/#elinux vrm (n=vrm@138.55.101-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 10:57.35 | *** join/#elinux ade|desk (n=adavey@194.200.143.249) |
| 12:44.31 | *** join/#elinux prpplague (n=billybob@72.22.152.142) |
| 13:10.35 | prpplague | anyone libusb familiar? |
| 13:13.06 | Crofton | no |
| 13:13.11 | Crofton | I've heard of it though |
| 13:14.50 | Crofton | Happy New Year too |
| 13:15.39 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
| 13:34.32 | *** join/#elinux linnuxxy (n=dave@210.5.196.22) |
| 13:35.03 | linnuxxy | anyone have experiance with boa embedded server? |
| 13:49.02 | chouimat | morning |
| 14:06.33 | *** join/#elinux GPSFan (n=Ken@65.121.49.208) |
| 14:27.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ping |
| 14:28.35 | prpplague | pb_: ping |
| 14:39.02 | *** join/#elinux inv (n=inv@host35.180.219.81.magma-net.pl) |
| 14:43.25 | prpplague | anyone know an easy way to do this in c: 0x12345678 would be stored as val1=0x12 val2=0x34 val3=0x56 val4=ox78 |
| 14:45.47 | linnuxxy | mask and shift |
| 14:46.36 | chouimat | or use a void* array ... |
| 14:47.22 | linnuxxy | val2=(0x12345678&0x00ff0000)>>16 or something |
| 14:47.41 | linnuxxy | val2=(0x12345678 & 0x00ff0000)>>16 or something |
| 14:51.48 | prpplague | hmm, thats what i though |
| 14:52.03 | prpplague | i was just curious if you could use memcpy to do the trick |
| 14:53.27 | chouimat | prpplague: hi |
| 14:57.53 | prpplague | chouimat: hey |
| 15:00.26 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: pong |
| 15:00.29 | CosmicPenguin | ~quote amd |
| 15:00.38 | CosmicPenguin | Yay us! |
| 15:04.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you see my question about storing a 32-bit value in four 8-bit vars? |
| 15:05.51 | CosmicPenguin | no |
| 15:05.53 | CosmicPenguin | ask it again |
| 15:08.34 | prpplague | anyone know an easy way to do this in c: 0x12345678 would be stored as val1=0x12 val2=0x34 val3=0x56 val4=ox78 |
| 15:09.29 | chouimat | wow 1 cad == 0.8684usd ... |
| 15:13.40 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: for(i = 3; i >= 0; i--) { |
| 15:13.40 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:13.40 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:13.40 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:15.12 | prpplague | hmm |
| 15:22.50 | prpplague | hmmmmm |
| 15:22.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i keep getting an odd result on one of the values |
| 15:23.24 | CosmicPenguin | ? |
| 15:25.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: val[2] ends up as 0xffffff34 |
| 15:25.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: sorry val[1] |
| 15:25.43 | prpplague | everything else is correct |
| 15:25.43 | prpplague | sounds like i have sign problem |
| 15:25.54 | CosmicPenguin | That is a sign problem |
| 15:26.26 | CosmicPenguin | make everything unsigned and you'll be fine |
| 15:27.08 | prpplague | thought i had |
| 15:38.20 | CosmicPenguin | signed variables are from the devil |
| 15:38.22 | CosmicPenguin | devil I tell you! |
| 15:38.31 | file | which devil? |
| 15:38.35 | file | regular, or non-regular? |
| 15:40.04 | CosmicPenguin | what, is there a sugar free devil now? |
| 15:45.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: spicy and mild |
| 15:51.28 | file[laptop] | CosmicPenguin: extra cheesy too |
| 15:53.15 | CosmicPenguin | mmm - cheesy |
| 16:31.56 | *** join/#elinux mbuf (n=mbuf@59.92.53.19) |
| 16:34.49 | mbuf | can we use usb with u-boot ? |
| 16:35.07 | mbuf | i see some usb* files, but, not sure how to use it with u-boot |
| 16:47.15 | *** join/#elinux dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.135.176) |
| 16:49.26 | *** join/#elinux sjhill (n=sjhill@eth13.com-link.com) |
| 16:55.11 | prpplague | argh this usb stuff drives me nuts |
| 16:57.20 | mbuf | if i am correct, what i see in u-boot code base is basic core stuff |
| 16:57.31 | mbuf | its better to use an OS for usb-related stuff ? |
| 16:58.15 | *** join/#elinux T0mW (n=Tom@24.115.193.215.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net) |
| 17:05.06 | prpplague | mbuf: it depends on your platform |
| 17:05.25 | prpplague | mbuf: there is plenty of embedded code for some of the arm processors |
| 17:05.30 | prpplague | mbuf: others there isn't |
| 17:06.05 | beeble | hmm, the atmel arm develboard has some usb upload code |
| 17:06.29 | beeble | but the client was win32 only so i didnt try it |
| 17:06.31 | mbuf | prpplague, i am using littlechips.com, LN2410SBC |
| 17:06.43 | mbuf | uses samsung s3c2410, arm920t |
| 17:06.52 | prpplague | mbuf: yea, i have 2 on my desk, hehe |
| 17:07.04 | mbuf | prpplague, does the core get heated up fast ? |
| 17:07.15 | prpplague | mbuf: the uboot that ships with it should support usb slave |
| 17:07.28 | prpplague | mbuf: have not noticed it heating up |
| 17:07.29 | mbuf | prpplague, so i connect it with a host ? |
| 17:07.38 | prpplague | mbuf: should |
| 17:07.47 | mbuf | probaby i am not in an air-conditioned room |
| 17:07.50 | prpplague | mbuf: but i don't use uboot, i use apex |
| 17:08.04 | mbuf | prpplague, what OSes have you booted on this board? |
| 17:08.16 | prpplague | mbuf: linux of course |
| 17:08.37 | mbuf | yes, indeed, what about other free/open source operating systems? |
| 17:08.46 | prpplague | no |
| 17:08.59 | mbuf | ecos, perhaps |
| 17:09.03 | prpplague | the company i work for primarily uses linux |
| 17:09.14 | mbuf | nice |
| 17:09.33 | beeble | hmm, apex is for samsung arm only? |
| 17:10.08 | beeble | s/samsung/sharp |
| 17:10.23 | mbuf | for ecos, you require eboot |
| 17:10.52 | gnuder | does anyone run linux on Atmel C51 controllers? |
| 17:10.54 | prpplague | beeble: no its very portable |
| 17:11.25 | prpplague | beeble: i've got a patch against the current version, just been wrangling with marc singer over the last few tweaks |
| 17:12.19 | beeble | what license is it? i would like to see a bsd/mit bootloader as uboot "drop-in" replacement |
| 17:12.38 | prpplague | gpl |
| 17:13.12 | *** join/#elinux Genesis (n=genesis@dev.aimao.org) |
| 17:13.32 | prpplague | beeble: patch for the s3c2410 boards supports sd/mmc |
| 17:13.36 | prpplague | beeble: with fat or ext2 |
| 17:14.39 | beeble | hmm, in most cases we use jffs2 |
| 17:14.41 | Genesis | bonsoir |
| 17:14.59 | prpplague | beeble: on sd/mmc card? |
| 17:15.06 | beeble | no |
| 17:15.14 | CosmicPenguin | iif an application has a child, and that child has children, and I do a kill() of the entire child process group, will executing wait() once kill all the zombies of our child too? |
| 17:15.25 | Genesis | prpplague : what do you think about the gp2x ? |
| 17:15.35 | prpplague | beeble: what i meant was you can load the kernel,rootfs and bootloader from a sd/mmc card |
| 17:15.38 | beeble | we dont have any plattforms with sd or mmc |
| 17:15.39 | CosmicPenguin | or do I need to while(1) { waitpid(-1, 0, NOHANG) } until it regurns 0? |
| 17:15.43 | beeble | ah ioc |
| 17:15.43 | prpplague | Genesis: haven't seen it yet |
| 17:15.47 | beeble | s/ioc/ic |
| 17:15.48 | Genesis | rhoo |
| 17:15.50 | beeble | thats nice |
| 17:15.52 | prpplague | beeble: oh sorry, got crossed with mbuf |
| 17:15.58 | Genesis | prpplague : the best console over the world |
| 17:16.05 | prpplague | Genesis: i really like the gp32 |
| 17:16.09 | Genesis | pfff |
| 17:16.12 | prpplague | Genesis: i almost has linux running it |
| 17:16.17 | Genesis | it's nothing comparate |
| 17:16.24 | Genesis | see gp2x |
| 17:16.26 | prpplague | Genesis: got the kernel booting, but ran out of free time |
| 17:16.34 | CosmicPenguin | I don't know enough about children processes |
| 17:16.53 | Genesis | gp2x it's not for children |
| 17:16.56 | Genesis | it's for hacker |
| 17:17.03 | beeble | hehe |
| 17:17.09 | Genesis | http://www.gbax.com/indexgp2x.html |
| 17:17.12 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:17.13 | beeble | mixed conversations++ |
| 17:17.15 | Genesis | dual arm 9 |
| 17:17.24 | prpplague | Genesis: hehe. he was speaking about something else |
| 17:17.35 | Genesis | oki scuse guys |
| 17:17.49 | prpplague | Genesis: i know its samsung, but i can;'t remember which processor |
| 17:17.56 | prpplague | Genesis: s3c25xx series? |
| 17:18.11 | beeble | im thinking about to buy an nokia n770. its a realy cheap devel board for the texas arm series |
| 17:18.40 | Genesis | i think gp2x is better |
| 17:18.43 | Genesis | but no keyboard |
| 17:18.49 | Genesis | but USB host |
| 17:18.55 | Genesis | and tv out |
| 17:18.58 | Genesis | sd card reader |
| 17:19.09 | Genesis | full linux support |
| 17:19.17 | mbuf | has n770 price come down? |
| 17:19.23 | beeble | g2x is nice but i would like to benchmark the arm + dsp |
| 17:19.25 | mbuf | having a laptop, i don't find it useful |
| 17:19.35 | prpplague | Genesis: nice |
| 17:19.47 | prpplague | Genesis: glad they went with sd instead of smartmedia like the gp32 |
| 17:19.51 | beeble | its not usefull for me. its just cheaper than the eval board ;) |
| 17:20.09 | Genesis | nokia sux |
| 17:20.20 | mbuf | it works! lasts long! |
| 17:20.29 | beeble | we dont have TI connections right now, we are stucked at cirrus, thats pretty lame |
| 17:20.40 | Genesis | see their politics about european law |
| 17:22.11 | Genesis | i can't imagine worse than nokia |
| 17:22.55 | beeble | siemens ;) |
| 17:22.57 | Genesis | how can you still buy their product |
| 17:23.11 | Genesis | after what they said |
| 17:23.27 | Genesis | i'm out of english word |
| 17:30.52 | CosmicPenguin | bah - stevens let me down |
| 17:30.57 | CosmicPenguin | you suck, stevens! |
| 17:31.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ? |
| 17:31.40 | prpplague | argh, i have xmit this via usb byte swapped |
| 17:57.11 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 17:58.59 | T0mW | prpplague: USB == Intel / Microsoft hack |
| 17:59.11 | T0mW | prpplague: need I say more? |
| 18:02.24 | T0mW | prpplague: what we need is a strong Programmer's Union. That way, we can vote to refuse to work on A**Hole Technology and all members would be bound to the majority vote. |
| 18:02.47 | T0mW | prpplague: then when the boss gets the bright idea to use the banned technology, he cannot have it. |
| 18:03.21 | T0mW | </dream> |
| 18:03.36 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy02.amd.com) |
| 18:03.36 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 18:03.38 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:03.43 | prpplague | T0mW: yea dream on |
| 18:04.02 | prpplague | T0mW: PHB's are too easily influenced with these catch phrases and buzz word technologies |
| 18:04.02 | T0mW | not in our lifetime, eh? |
| 18:04.33 | prpplague | T0mW: i would expect to make first contact with aliens before a programmers union would exist |
| 18:05.02 | CosmicPenguin | It would never work anyway |
| 18:05.08 | CosmicPenguin | its programmers that is coming up with this crap |
| 18:05.20 | CosmicPenguin | They would outvote the rest of us |
| 18:05.29 | T0mW | its programmers that is coming up with this crackhead ideas |
| 18:06.10 | T0mW | entirely too many drugs are being consumed by a few individuals working for some key corporations. |
| 18:06.21 | prpplague | hehe yea |
| 18:07.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: give me a whack at it |
| 18:07.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i come up with some good names |
| 18:07.31 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: like the Advantage Imaging and Document System |
| 18:07.42 | CosmicPenguin | geesh |
| 18:07.54 | CosmicPenguin | that name will get you beaten in some countries |
| 18:08.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, abcsinc is still selling with that name |
| 18:08.18 | *** join/#elinux Crofton (n=balister@hc6521d1e.dhcp.vt.edu) |
| 18:08.23 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: try some aboriginal works, or eskimo words? |
| 18:08.38 | T0mW | s/works/words/ |
| 18:09.36 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: "Good Times Paycheck Generator" ? |
| 18:11.38 | prpplague | T0mW: russian words are better |
| 18:12.28 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe i made a cd for donna a few weeks back, and i put all songs on it that were in non-english |
| 18:12.50 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe labled the cd, "what the #%#@!# are they saying?" |
| 18:14.49 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: hehe - none of the native languages have a word for "stress" |
| 18:15.08 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 18:15.08 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:15.20 | *** mode/#elinux [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 18:15.57 | prpplague | TimRiker: hey hey |
| 18:16.17 | prpplague | TimRiker: planning to move elinux from sf.net anytime soon? |
| 18:16.30 | prpplague | TimRiker: if not, i want to do a backup in the next few days |
| 18:18.31 | prpplague | ok so i guess i'm getting old, i've been coding for 6 hours and i'm worn out |
| 18:18.53 | prpplague | gone are the 20 hours of coding without getting up for anything other than coffee |
| 18:18.56 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I'm trying to figure out a name for a framework I'm making to better manage platforms under stress |
| 18:20.26 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: Berzerker? |
| 18:20.54 | T0mW | Spawn Killer |
| 18:21.41 | T0mW | prpplague: only 20hours? I recall some 30+ hour days |
| 18:22.58 | chouimat|lunch | hi T0mW |
| 18:23.09 | T0mW | chouimat|lunch: :) |
| 18:25.06 | beeble | fill them in a children swimmingpool |
| 18:25.21 | beeble | and make some weired geek fetish pix |
| 18:26.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: FADSS, hehe Framework for Averting Delayed Stress Syndrome, hehe |
| 18:26.22 | TimRiker | prpplague: feel free to do a backup anytime. :-) |
| 18:26.39 | prpplague | TimRiker: will do |
| 18:26.55 | prpplague | TimRiker: we don't hear from you much lately, hows things going? |
| 18:26.56 | TimRiker | I run a backup script in ~timriker/bin/ that you can hack if you like. |
| 18:27.10 | prpplague | ok thanks |
| 18:27.16 | CosmicPenguin | hehe - pressure management system |
| 18:27.23 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:27.23 | TimRiker | it creates a backup in ~elinux/backup/ that's group readable, but only me writeable. |
| 18:27.36 | *** join/#elinux inv (n=inv@host35.180.219.81.magma-net.pl) |
| 18:27.36 | TimRiker | prpplague: busy hacking java boxen. |
| 18:27.41 | prpplague | lovely |
| 18:27.53 | prpplague | TimRiker: still looking to get back into embedded? |
| 18:28.39 | *** join/#elinux T`2 (n=total@pdpc/supporter/student/T) |
| 18:28.44 | TimRiker | I'll hang here for another year or so. then sure. |
| 18:30.05 | CosmicPenguin | heh - crystal |
| 18:30.13 | CosmicPenguin | because they're formed by minerals under stress |
| 18:30.35 | CosmicPenguin | And whats in a geode? crystals |
| 18:30.40 | *** join/#elinux George- (n=Test@future-is.orange.co.uk) |
| 18:30.50 | CosmicPenguin | Briliant! |
| 18:31.27 | *** part/#elinux George- (n=Test@future-is.orange.co.uk) |
| 18:31.36 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:32.31 | CosmicPenguin | its as good a name as any |
| 18:32.45 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:32.52 | prpplague | how boilermake |
| 18:32.55 | prpplague | howabout |
| 18:34.24 | CosmicPenguin | boilermaker |
| 18:34.28 | CosmicPenguin | thats creative |
| 18:34.37 | CosmicPenguin | code name "perdue" |
| 18:37.03 | *** join/#elinux vittorio (n=andreas@213.174.253.3) |
| 18:53.04 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 18:53.04 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:54.03 | *** join/#elinux Sgt-Donan (n=Loutre@mto30-1-82-242-53-8.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:57.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: Ross-Pop Framework |
| 18:57.16 | prpplague | The "Ross Pop" type of safety valve was in extensive use on the former British Railways and it is still in use today. Below is a sectioned example as used on the former Midland region and on all the BR Std. Locomotives . |
| 18:59.48 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 19:00.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: RPFS |
| 19:00.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: Ross Pop Framework System |
| 19:01.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: this usb crap just wears me out |
| 19:01.34 | CosmicPenguin | It wears everybody out |
| 19:01.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: its like fighting with a 12 headed snake |
| 19:01.41 | CosmicPenguin | USB sucks like that |
| 19:02.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: just about ready to stop drinking the coffee and start eating the grounds |
| 19:04.06 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 19:04.13 | CosmicPenguin | espresso beans and lots of em |
| 19:04.14 | CosmicPenguin | stat! |
| 19:04.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: totally burnt out today, can't seem to focus on finishing this code |
| 19:21.15 | T`2 | anyone using pxeboot here? |
| 19:21.48 | T`2 | for some reason my e1000 card takes forever to load the kernel... something broken in grub driver i think |
| 19:26.29 | prpplague | T`2: no, but you can alot of help with pxe on the #ltsp channel |
| 19:27.16 | T`2 | plague, thanks |
| 19:27.29 | prpplague | np |
| 19:30.44 | *** join/#elinux darkschneider (n=gab@213-140-6-96.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 20:00.20 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy02.amd.com) |
| 20:00.20 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 20:15.41 | gnuder | Does anyone here have experience running linux on ARM7? |
| 20:16.13 | prpplague | a significant number of ppl here probably would answer yes |
| 20:16.15 | CosmicPenguin | you might say that |
| 20:21.47 | gnuder | CosmicPenguin, do you run it on a custom platform or something off-shelf? |
| 20:21.59 | Crofton | heh |
| 20:22.15 | Crofton | CosmicPenguin is not they guy running ARM :) |
| 20:22.28 | gnuder | Crofton, are you the arm7 master? |
| 20:23.04 | CosmicPenguin | gnuder: well, back when I did run ARM, it was on off-the-shelf products |
| 20:23.14 | CosmicPenguin | But these days, I'm anti-ARM |
| 20:23.26 | CosmicPenguin | Sort of like the Venus De'Milo |
| 20:23.43 | gnuder | CosmicPenguin, New to this stuff. Why are you against arm? |
| 20:24.24 | CosmicPenguin | gnuder: becuase my company produces processors in the same space with different architectures |
| 20:24.56 | gnuder | CosmicPenguin, yeah, give me a pointer to something critical on arm7's -- trying to vet out my options. |
| 20:27.00 | prpplague | gnuder: why not just ask what you need to know |
| 20:27.28 | gnuder | prpplague, I need to know what people think sucks about arm7. |
| 20:28.06 | prpplague | i see |
| 20:28.31 | prpplague | gnuder: arm7 as opposed to what? |
| 20:28.54 | Crofton | sorry gnuder, jack of all trades master of none here |
| 20:29.04 | gnuder | prpplague, CosmicPenguin said he knows of something better. |
| 20:29.14 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:29.17 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 20:29.27 | prpplague | gnuder: computers and cpu's are tools, you get the tool that does the job |
| 20:29.40 | prpplague | gnuder: don;t use a hammer when you need screw driver |
| 20:29.53 | prpplague | gnuder: you need a criteria for making a decision |
| 20:30.00 | Crofton | CosmicPenguin gets paid by people who sell processors that compete with ARM's |
| 20:30.06 | CosmicPenguin | Not with ARM7s |
| 20:30.12 | Crofton | ah |
| 20:30.13 | gnuder | prpplague, yeah -- right. There is also something to being able to a lot with simple tools. I don't want four tools I want one. |
| 20:30.36 | prpplague | gnuder: ok, well what are your criteria then? |
| 20:31.16 | gnuder | prpplague, cheap, fast for a variety of embedded boards, all custom, with spec. tasks for each platform. |
| 20:31.17 | Crofton | just tell us what you want to do |
| 20:31.36 | gnuder | prpplague, arm7 is the lowest comm denom. |
| 20:32.43 | gnuder | Crofton, motor control, usb comm., signal processing (low computation power), graphical displays on embeds. |
| 20:33.27 | prpplague | gnuder: ok qualify cheap |
| 20:33.42 | prpplague | $100, $200, $2000 |
| 20:33.44 | gnuder | prpplague, 10 bucks per unit/qty. =1 |
| 20:33.52 | Crofton | per cpu? |
| 20:33.53 | CosmicPenguin | what about the whole BOM? |
| 20:33.54 | prpplague | gnuder: for the processor alone? |
| 20:34.26 | gnuder | prpplague, BOM = 125 - 250, depending on diff. projects/diff. hardware |
| 20:34.45 | prpplague | gnuder: ok, qualify fast |
| 20:34.50 | gnuder | prpplague, these will be custy boards for app specific use. |
| 20:35.00 | Crofton | remind to tell the screwdriver story when we are bored |
| 20:35.07 | gnuder | fast = 50 mips. |
| 20:35.10 | prpplague | Crofton: hehe |
| 20:35.25 | Crofton | it has to do with scale |
| 20:35.34 | prpplague | gnuder: so are designing these boards yourself? |
| 20:35.36 | gnuder | prpplague, well it's fast for me -- thank you! |
| 20:35.50 | gnuder | prpplague, yeah, been doing it for a long time with other parts. |
| 20:36.10 | prpplague | gnuder: bga capable? |
| 20:36.40 | gnuder | prpplague, tqfp, no bga's b/c it incr. pcb cost --- many layers = many dollars. |
| 20:36.51 | prpplague | gnuder: thats gonna limit you |
| 20:37.06 | prpplague | gnuder: mmu or not? |
| 20:37.34 | gnuder | prpplague, actually 4 layer is good for speed, but as far as io these systems only need between 8-16 pins, so not a huge limit. |
| 20:37.59 | gnuder | prpplague, small code footprint will reside in flash |
| 20:38.56 | gnuder | prpplague, what are you designing boards with? geda/PCB? |
| 20:40.06 | prpplague | gnuder: i don't do the board layouts, but we use orcad |
| 20:40.24 | prpplague | gnuder: so are you gonna run linux? |
| 20:42.21 | gnuder | prpplague, haven't really decided whether to run an os. It would be linux, but just don't know yet. |
| 20:42.52 | gnuder | prpplague, how small can I make a linux for arm7, say without tasks? |
| 20:44.52 | vittorio | gnuder, im in the decision process like you right now. similar specs, a bit higher ... |
| 20:45.04 | gnuder | vittorio, higher what |
| 20:45.32 | vittorio | gnuder, speed. cause a friend using ARM7 at company said its to slow for them |
| 20:45.43 | vittorio | so we picked ARM9 |
| 20:45.47 | vittorio | we run linux |
| 20:45.55 | gnuder | vittorio, what toolchain do you use? |
| 20:46.15 | vittorio | we use sysgo ELinOS 4.0 |
| 20:46.26 | vittorio | linux with RTAI |
| 20:46.41 | gnuder | vittorio, do you load ELinOS into flash or OTP or media card? |
| 20:47.01 | vittorio | flash, we will need ~16MB. to hifh for OTP |
| 20:47.13 | gnuder | vittorio, yeah too much mem. |
| 20:47.28 | gnuder | vittorio, is 16mb the smallest you can make ELinOS? |
| 20:47.39 | vittorio | 16MB because we want to use tiny-x and maybe gtk+ |
| 20:47.47 | gnuder | vittorio, would really like a 5k sized linux? Is it possible? |
| 20:48.02 | vittorio | 500k? |
| 20:48.17 | gnuder | vittorio, no 5k. Is this crazy? |
| 20:48.44 | vittorio | what do you mean by 5k? 5kB, 5MB? |
| 20:49.00 | vittorio | 5k is crazy yes |
| 20:49.09 | gnuder | vittorio, 5000 lines of code. 5kB. |
| 20:49.24 | vittorio | smallest linux image ive got was 540kB flash |
| 20:49.38 | gnuder | vittorio, can one adjust the build of ELinOS to get it smaller? |
| 20:50.24 | vittorio | i gues this is smallest you will get (+/- some xx kb |
| 20:51.05 | vittorio | for 540kb you dont even have file system. the programm is running in the init process |
| 20:51.06 | gnuder | vittorio, thanks, new to elinux devel -- on crack from running own custy apps on embeds. |
| 20:51.47 | gnuder | vittorio, 540kb for a linux that just handles tasks, right? |
| 20:51.51 | vittorio | we just started to use linux too |
| 20:51.55 | vittorio | yes |
| 20:52.21 | gnuder | vittorio, what kind of storage exactly are you putting lin on and how does the micro interface it? |
| 20:52.28 | vittorio | if you need flash filesystem add maybe 50-100k |
| 20:53.01 | vittorio | NAND flash. interface via bux |
| 20:53.04 | vittorio | bus |
| 20:53.37 | gnuder | vittorio, is the nand flash in chip or swappable form? |
| 20:53.44 | vittorio | extern |
| 20:54.04 | gnuder | vittorio, do you install via jtag or usb? |
| 20:54.07 | vittorio | extern on same PCB |
| 20:54.13 | vittorio | jtag |
| 20:54.35 | vittorio | bootloader via jtag - linux and application updates via USB |
| 20:54.40 | gnuder | vittorio, cool. do you use gcc for builds? |
| 20:54.44 | vittorio | yes |
| 20:55.12 | gnuder | vittorio, is there an IRC for gcc-embedded code? |
| 20:55.39 | vittorio | hmm, dont know |
| 20:56.01 | vittorio | theres #gcc |
| 20:56.13 | gnuder | just don't want to be so off topic --> get flamed doin' that. |
| 20:56.52 | gnuder | vittorio, #gcc is for gcc devel. got flamed for asking about c devel there once. |
| 20:56.59 | vittorio | oh |
| 20:57.03 | Crofton | heh |
| 20:57.14 | gnuder | he |
| 20:57.30 | Crofton | try pasting something big into this window :) |
| 20:57.51 | gnuder | Crofton, some ascii art, maybe? |
| 20:57.59 | Crofton | or using colour |
| 20:58.00 | vittorio | theres a C IRC channel but dont recall the name |
| 20:58.16 | CosmicPenguin | I mean, really, isn't every channel a C channle? |
| 20:59.03 | Crofton | someone actually discssing embedded stuff here is pretty on topic, given the general chatter at iems |
| 20:59.03 | gnuder | CosmicPenguin, yeah, just try telling that to those #gcc jacknuts. |
| 20:59.04 | vittorio | #python too? |
| 20:59.29 | gnuder | Crofton, iems? what's that? |
| 20:59.42 | Crofton | er times |
| 20:59.44 | Crofton | I type bad |
| 20:59.54 | gnuder | he he |
| 21:00.44 | vittorio | gnuder, but if you want to use linux you probably need a MMU, which does limit the available ARM7/ARM9 processors alot |
| 21:01.20 | gnuder | vittorio, that's a mem manager? I've always done everything out of flast/otp with assembly. |
| 21:01.52 | vittorio | yeah, but without MMU you only can use uclinux |
| 21:02.03 | gnuder | vittorio, does ElinOS deal with the mmu? |
| 21:02.04 | inv | you can run linux on mcu without mmu |
| 21:02.32 | inv | oh sorry linux != uclinux ;p |
| 21:02.32 | gnuder | inv, what kind of linux should I be looking for ... for abs. min. size? |
| 21:02.58 | inv | uclinux |
| 21:02.59 | inv | ;p |
| 21:03.15 | vittorio | gnuder, do you need hard realtime? |
| 21:03.22 | inv | with ~4MB Ram |
| 21:03.36 | gnuder | vittorio, yeah, realtime good. that's why i've been doing asmbly. |
| 21:03.55 | gnuder | inv, you need 4MB for uclinux? |
| 21:04.19 | inv | this is safe amount |
| 21:04.30 | gnuder | inv, what about 12kB linux? |
| 21:04.38 | inv | ?! |
| 21:04.45 | inv | lpc :P ? |
| 21:04.49 | gnuder | no, i'm serious! |
| 21:05.17 | inv | you want to run it on system without ext ram ? |
| 21:05.17 | vittorio | gnuder, then your limiting the available embedded linux distros alot. RTLinux, linux with RTAI (sysgo, k-linux). or montavista, timesys (not that hard realtime like rtlinux and rtai) |
| 21:07.02 | gnuder | inv, uh 'lpc' are you saying I'm Low Pin Count? |
| 21:07.08 | vittorio | gnuder, something like 2MB flash and 2MB RAM is the absolut minimum. something like 4MB flash and 4MB RAM if you want to run an application : |
| 21:07.55 | gnuder | vittorio, thanks for straigtening me out -- didn't realize my fav. os was such a beast! |
| 21:08.19 | vittorio | e.g. sysgo elinos says 4MB flash and 4MB RAM is minimum |
| 21:09.14 | gnuder | vittorio, is elinos open or closed? |
| 21:09.33 | vittorio | open and closed. theres a free version without realtime |
| 21:10.00 | vittorio | and i think only for x86 |
| 21:10.07 | gnuder | vittorio, is the free version w/o realtime able to break off and run clock-owned tasks in assembly? |
| 21:10.48 | vittorio | oh worng. available for more plattforms. see http://www.sysgo.com/en/products/elinos/elinos-packages/freetoolbox/features/?tx_jppageteaser_pi1%5BbackId%5D=40 |
| 21:11.15 | gnuder | vittorio, on their site now. Looks very expensive. |
| 21:11.39 | vittorio | gnuder, i dont understand. whats break off and clock-owned? |
| 21:11.55 | vittorio | gnuder, its 2000€ min. |
| 21:12.03 | *** join/#elinux cb_away (n=cbrake@cpe-65-25-51-117.neo.res.rr.com) |
| 21:12.23 | gnuder | vittorio, I may be misunderstanding the point of the OS, but can a task take over and be real-time even if the OS is not? |
| 21:12.48 | vittorio | not if you dont have RTAI or RTLinux |
| 21:12.52 | Genesis | bonne nuit |
| 21:12.56 | gnuder | vittorio, since it looks like elinos is mostly gnu tools, what are the added features that get the price up to 2keuro? |
| 21:13.29 | gnuder | vittorio, yeah rtos -- that makes a good bit of sense :] |
| 21:14.14 | gnuder | vittorio, running elinos, what kinds of applications do you think people are running? |
| 21:14.16 | vittorio | they have integration for RTAI. prebuild packages and building system. many BSPs supported |
| 21:15.03 | gnuder | vittorio, bsp (board scale pack?) is this in the realm of asic arm7 thru lisc. vendor? |
| 21:15.04 | vittorio | probably industrial automation... |
| 21:15.32 | vittorio | things you cant do without an OS properly. like USB host |
| 21:15.50 | vittorio | Board Support Package |
| 21:16.14 | vittorio | so you can run linux and different hardware boards |
| 21:16.28 | vittorio | on different.. |
| 21:16.48 | gnuder | vittorio, that is just a header kit for diff platforms? |
| 21:17.11 | vittorio | includes drivers and stuff |
| 21:18.24 | gnuder | vittorio, I see. How do they do it. The lift the gnu toolchain, make improvements and sell their packaged kit but don't return the improvementz? |
| 21:19.25 | vittorio | they return the improvements. |
| 21:19.50 | gnuder | so they're selling the package deal, which should make projects faster/easier for their clients? |
| 21:19.59 | vittorio | yes |
| 21:20.08 | vittorio | its like redhat enterprise linux |
| 21:20.15 | vittorio | and you get support |
| 21:20.22 | gnuder | vittorio, how many diff engineers/developers do you think are required to build a custom arm7 application? |
| 21:20.42 | gnuder | application meaning hardware board running app + linux? |
| 21:21.52 | vittorio | hmm. |
| 21:22.05 | vittorio | we have 1 HW guy working on it. 2 and more software guys. |
| 21:22.08 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy01.amd.com) |
| 21:22.08 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 21:22.26 | CosmicPenguin | sigh |
| 21:22.33 | file | CosmicPenguin: no proxy foo you |
| 21:23.00 | gnuder | vittorio, serious question, I do it all alone, but getting into embedded os seems a little dicey. |
| 21:23.00 | gnuder | CosmicPenguin, don't kick the proxy, that's unkewl. |
| 21:23.00 | vittorio | gnuder, its not a simple task! |
| 21:23.03 | gnuder | vittorio, no JOKE ... |
| 21:23.28 | kergoth | dicey? |
| 21:23.29 | vittorio | its not like doing a PIC/MSP430/ATMEL something board and write a small application |
| 21:24.09 | gnuder | vittorio, theoretically, it could be that simple right. One OS. One task. Just set it up to run that task all the time and forget about it??? |
| 21:24.54 | vittorio | for what do you need the OS? |
| 21:24.56 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/20/messages/1305.html |
| 21:25.30 | kergoth | i know what the word /means/, i just dont see how it applies here :) |
| 21:25.44 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 21:26.08 | CosmicPenguin | ok, so I just totally insulted your intellegence - my bad |
| 21:26.36 | gnuder | kergoth, I meant adding an embedded os to make my programming jobs easier might make my life harder -- don't want to roll the dice without placing a smart bet first. |
| 21:27.30 | gnuder | vittorio, os to handle IRC interrupts i mean. |
| 21:28.48 | gnuder | vittorio, if I can get drivers for an onboard peripheral, say in C, is there any reason to use an OS to run it, as opposed to an application that calls it? |
| 21:28.48 | vittorio | gnuder, if you dont need USB host and things various RTOS cant handle well its alot easier to use a simple and small RTOS |
| 21:29.24 | gnuder | vittorio, I do need USB client. What do you think about that regards to whether to use an os? |
| 21:29.59 | gnuder | vittorio, simple and small? Is this like 8MB, or are you referring to some other RTOS that isn't linuz? |
| 21:31.09 | vittorio | simple and small like ECOS http://sources.redhat.com/ecos/about.html |
| 21:31.22 | gnuder | vittorio, i'll check it out. |
| 21:32.16 | vittorio | there are alot RTOS available, ecos is only an example. a good one |
| 21:33.47 | vittorio | brb coffee |
| 21:49.01 | *** join/#elinux vittorio (n=andreas@213.174.253.3) |
| 22:34.41 | *** join/#elinux FireEgl (i=Atlantic@Atlantica.US) |
| 23:00.29 | *** join/#elinux prh (n=paul@wacka.mjr.org) |
| 23:14.05 | *** join/#elinux Sgt-Donan (n=Loutre@mto30-1-82-242-53-8.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 23:20.39 | *** join/#elinux MonMotha (n=monmotha@martinbv-3.student.rose-hulman.edu) |
| 23:37.38 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: heh - I don't know if I should use the name boilermaker, because I would want to abbreviate it |
| 23:37.44 | CosmicPenguin | I don't think we want a lot of functions named bm_ |
| 23:38.29 | Crofton | Heh |
| 23:38.37 | Crofton | I have had a successful day |
| 23:45.30 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy01.amd.com) |
| 23:45.30 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |