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| 01:53.11 | file | bleh |
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| 09:21.41 | prh | apps keep craashing in opie. |
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| 11:27.26 | Genesis | bonjour |
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| 12:43.04 | prpplague | mallum: hey hey, how goes it? |
| 13:00.47 | prpplague | ~seen sjhill |
| 13:00.52 | ibot | sjhill <n=sjhill@eth13.com-link.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #elinux, 10d 19h 16m 18s ago, saying: 'no big deal'. |
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| 14:05.07 | mallum | hey prpplague |
| 14:05.38 | mallum | prpplague: hey question for you; do you run asterisk as a sip<->iax gateway ? or was that someone else ? |
| 14:06.01 | prpplague | mallum: wasn't me, probably file could answer that |
| 14:06.12 | prpplague | mallum: i'm not much into Voip stuff as of yet |
| 14:08.35 | mallum | file: about ? |
| 14:08.55 | mallum | prpplague: maybe it was sorphin but he dont seem to hang around here much anymore ? |
| 14:09.39 | prpplague | mallum: hehe, yea, after the last spat between kergoth and sorphin, he stopped coming onto irc |
| 14:14.41 | ade|desk | yeah anyone seen dan around ? |
| 14:15.38 | ade|desk | what happened between them ? |
| 14:17.07 | prpplague | ade|desk: hehe, they don't get along, kinda like fire and gasoline |
| 14:19.03 | ade|desk | how strange, i dont think i've ever come across people who cant get along on irc |
| 14:19.57 | ade|desk | i guess human nature can flow into irc now and again |
| 14:20.20 | ade|desk | prpplague: hows your bootloader fetish going ? |
| 14:27.50 | prpplague | ade|desk: hehe, it goes |
| 14:28.02 | prpplague | ade|desk: there are lots of ppl that don't get along on itc |
| 14:28.03 | prpplague | irc |
| 14:28.11 | prpplague | ade|desk: just freenode is much better than msots |
| 14:28.13 | prpplague | mosts |
| 14:28.20 | prpplague | jeeze i can't type this morning |
| 14:28.28 | T0mW | yeah, you got that right |
| 14:28.32 | ade|desk | too much beer |
| 14:28.44 | T0mW | yeah, his fingers are hungover |
| 14:29.11 | prpplague | ade|desk: actually i've been cuting back, i've only had about 4 beers this week |
| 14:29.13 | ade|desk | grrr i dont like waiting |
| 14:29.51 | ade|desk | my parents rang thismorning to say they were coming over, great, what time... dunno |
| 14:30.29 | T0mW | ade|desk: tell 'em if you're not there visit without you |
| 14:30.48 | ade|desk | my day off and i'm waiting hanging around for them .. fun fun fun |
| 14:30.57 | T0mW | ade|desk: leave a photo of yourself there for them to talk with |
| 14:31.33 | T0mW | ade|desk: or your avatar |
| 14:31.38 | ade|desk | my wife is going to go nuts cos i haven't done all the jobs i was going todo |
| 14:32.06 | ade|desk | T0mW: i dont do avatars :( |
| 14:32.32 | ade|desk | wouldn't know what to have |
| 14:33.47 | T0mW | ade|desk: prpplague's would be a bored bartender |
| 14:33.51 | T0mW | heh |
| 14:34.43 | T0mW | hmm, there is a bunch of peices to install for this subversion thingy |
| 14:34.57 | Crofton | subversion thingy? |
| 14:35.10 | T0mW | couple libs and clients and server thingys to choose from |
| 14:35.25 | T0mW | Crofton: svn\ |
| 14:35.30 | T0mW | Crofton: svn |
| 14:35.34 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:35.43 | Crofton | I am pretty familiar with svn |
| 14:35.49 | T0mW | still wondering what a "DAV" is |
| 14:36.02 | Crofton | method for talking to a web server |
| 14:36.05 | Crofton | read/write |
| 14:36.15 | Crofton | svnserve is easier to get going |
| 14:36.35 | Crofton | but svn over http is better if you deal with lots of people |
| 14:36.44 | Crofton | or want to surf repo via http |
| 14:36.58 | Crofton | https://ossie-dev.mprg.org/repos/oe/ |
| 14:37.12 | T0mW | I figure that since I've a new product to support, and maybe merge in the sources for the older one, I'd look at svn to do the repository stuff. |
| 14:37.22 | T0mW | I know what cvs cannot do for me. |
| 14:37.28 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:37.42 | Crofton | I don't think I could stand cvs after using svn |
| 14:37.49 | Crofton | trac is a nice add on also |
| 14:38.04 | T0mW | mostly version branching (confusing to do) and moving stuff around the source tree |
| 14:38.14 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:39.09 | T0mW | I'd like a development branch, a release (gold code) main, and maybe spinoff a branch occasionally to try ideas out on. |
| 14:39.31 | Crofton | I assume you are the only person using the repo? |
| 14:39.36 | T0mW | yes |
| 14:40.07 | Crofton | unless you are an apache guru, use svnserve, or just local access if you don't need network access |
| 14:40.25 | T0mW | I need the network access. |
| 14:40.36 | Crofton | then setup up svnserve :) |
| 14:40.42 | T0mW | I keep the repos on another server, to keep it safer from me |
| 14:40.52 | Crofton | yeah, same here |
| 14:40.54 | prpplague | T0mW: yea lots of dependieces for svn |
| 14:41.08 | Crofton | yum install subversion :) |
| 14:41.16 | T0mW | I do stupid sh!t from time to time, like brick the machine, rm -rf , etc. |
| 14:41.24 | prpplague | ugh ugh ugh, sf.net is soooooooo sllloooooowwwwwww |
| 14:41.33 | T0mW | prpplague: not new |
| 14:42.54 | T0mW | anyone do any realtime work with linux? |
| 14:43.21 | Crofton | not realtime in the sense of hard realtime |
| 14:43.31 | T0mW | I've been looking at adeos and RTAI lately, but it seems to be rather disorganized |
| 14:43.54 | T0mW | Crofton: I need hard realtime in the 10ms range, jitter < 1ms |
| 14:44.09 | T0mW | on ARM, not x86 |
| 14:44.24 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:44.31 | Crofton | We do sw radio work |
| 14:44.33 | T0mW | Crofton: you too? |
| 14:44.39 | Crofton | so it is an issue |
| 14:44.44 | T0mW | nod |
| 14:44.49 | Crofton | but we can cheat by using big buffers |
| 14:44.59 | Crofton | and we are academics :) |
| 14:45.32 | T0mW | I've some ARM710 boards that I can hack up to do some testing at 56MHz. Just to get some sense of what issues could be involved. |
| 14:45.47 | Crofton | no vm system? |
| 14:45.55 | T0mW | I figure if I can do it at the lower speed then an ARM920 would be ok |
| 14:46.06 | T0mW | Crofton: it does have an MMU |
| 14:46.36 | T0mW | I won't do uClinux, too restrictive |
| 14:46.38 | Crofton | that adds complexity |
| 14:46.58 | prpplague | hey, just out of curiosity, why do you guys not consider x86 cpus for most embedded devices? |
| 14:47.06 | T0mW | I see they do thread locking in RTAI, keep the program from being paged. |
| 14:47.07 | prpplague | (playing devils advocate) |
| 14:47.13 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:47.23 | T0mW | prpplague: power, takes too much current |
| 14:47.37 | Crofton | CP must be asleep |
| 14:47.58 | prpplague | T0mW: even something like the geodes? |
| 14:47.59 | Crofton | RTAI works with real linux? |
| 14:48.01 | T0mW | prpplague: maybe the newer stuff is lower power, but x86 "embedded" has a bad reputation for being power hungry in the past |
| 14:48.20 | prpplague | T0mW: agreed |
| 14:48.31 | prpplague | T0mW: howeve most geode designes are around 1watt |
| 14:48.42 | prpplague | T0mW: that still too high? |
| 14:48.53 | prpplague | T0mW: even for a non mobile embedded device? |
| 14:48.57 | T0mW | my entire dual cpu LPC2000 design runs at about half the power it takes to crank an 80C188 cpu over |
| 14:49.24 | prpplague | Crofton: i was just thinking about something cp said yesterday about how very few people look at the geode as an embedded processor |
| 14:49.27 | T0mW | prpplague: I'm consuming an active current of < 50ma (everything lit up). |
| 14:49.49 | prpplague | T0mW: right, but is that even a concern in a non mobile device/ |
| 14:49.50 | prpplague | ? |
| 14:51.06 | T0mW | prpplague: I just looked at the Cirrus EP9301: ethernet MAC, SPI, 3 UARTs, blah blah. Worst case active current for the 1.8v line is 230ma (400mw) and that is at 166MHz |
| 14:51.39 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 14:51.43 | T0mW | typical is 180ma (325mw) |
| 14:52.08 | prpplague | T0mW: but if we are talking being used for datacollection, or STB, or some network device |
| 14:52.26 | prpplague | T0mW: is a 1watt ps that big of a deal? |
| 14:52.30 | T0mW | ARM has a much better suite of periphs |
| 14:53.09 | prpplague | T0mW: but if you are using x86, why not use all those off the shelf designs and parts? |
| 14:53.10 | T0mW | prpplague: could be, most of the stuff I deal with must run for 48hours on a sealed lead-acid battery. |
| 14:53.30 | prpplague | T0mW: gotcha |
| 14:53.37 | T0mW | so, if it is the difference between 1 watt and a half watt of consumption, guess what wins? |
| 14:53.57 | prpplague | T0mW: i was just entertaining myself with my daily commute pondering the question |
| 14:54.03 | prpplague | T0mW: agree |
| 14:54.24 | T0mW | prpplague: some of the stuff has to be put at a remote location with a solar panel to charge / power during the day. Then run at night, and over several cloudy days. |
| 14:54.39 | prpplague | T0mW: i was also considering that many developers feel that they have less control over an x86 arch |
| 14:54.45 | T0mW | prpplague: commute being from the kitchen to the living room? |
| 14:54.46 | T0mW | heh |
| 14:55.07 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, i think you miss understand, hehe, i don;t work from my house |
| 14:55.16 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, i rent a small office |
| 14:56.16 | T0mW | prpplague: IMO, the X86 is more complex in one sense, you can virtualize the hardware. This makes VMWare possible, however, when you run embedded you don't need that as your system is entirely self contained. So it is not a feature that attracts embedded people |
| 14:57.19 | prpplague | T0mW: agreed as well |
| 14:57.29 | prpplague | T0mW: when i think x86 i think complexe |
| 14:57.34 | T0mW | I think too that moving from 8051 upwards is easier into ARM as the arch is more 8051 like than the x86. |
| 14:58.00 | prpplague | ha, that was also in my thoughts this morning |
| 14:58.12 | T0mW | 8051/68HC11: fairly simple asm language. While x86 is a really rich instruction set. |
| 14:58.23 | T0mW | more imposing? |
| 14:58.55 | prpplague | and embedded systems are often under a short time to market development schedule |
| 14:59.48 | T0mW | prpplague: Intel has done themselves a dis-service in how they've marketed the X86. 10-12 years ago they languidly came out with some embedded versions of the processors (80386), but didn't push it and they were targeted towards the high end. |
| 15:00.26 | T0mW | ARM has started out at the low end market and worked upwards (arm3 --> arm4 --> arm5 -->arm6) |
| 15:00.49 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, nec also had a set of chips |
| 15:00.50 | T0mW | perception being they are simpler? |
| 15:00.55 | prpplague | T0mW: i found them very nice |
| 15:01.08 | T0mW | I don't recall what NEC had |
| 15:01.14 | prpplague | T0mW: V20 and V30 |
| 15:01.20 | T0mW | oh yeah |
| 15:01.52 | T0mW | prpplague: the design one customer is considering me re-doing is to replace an 80C188 chip with an ARM9 |
| 15:02.09 | T0mW | ARM920 |
| 15:02.37 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, i'll have to save my scroll buffer for cp |
| 15:02.59 | prpplague | T0mW: amd really needs to do some PR about these issues |
| 15:03.03 | T0mW | I'm trying to figure out if I can install linux, apache, ssh, openvpn, etc. on that chip + keep good hard realltime running. |
| 15:03.25 | Crofton | let me know if you can :) |
| 15:03.25 | prpplague | T0mW: thats alot running to be realtime |
| 15:04.04 | T0mW | If I can do the realtime, either via FIQ interrupts + fifos to the user / kernel... |
| 15:04.45 | T0mW | preferably, sidestep the kernel and run the fifos directly into the user app |
| 15:06.04 | *** join/#elinux Sgt-Donan (n=Loutre@feu30-1-82-242-59-35.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:06.19 | T0mW | I keep coming around to the same solution: ARM7/9 to do the linux + networking, ARM7TDMI to do realtime and let the two of them talk with each other. |
| 15:06.33 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
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| 15:07.39 | T0mW | cannot justify the costs though, with that approach it wastes a perfectly good ARM7/9 processor (in a sense). |
| 15:10.58 | prpplague | i just can't see amd making inroads into the arm, ppc, and mips embedded areas |
| 15:11.34 | T0mW | Crofton: I think that your needs for realtime are different from mine. I need to watch hardware very closely and "eventaully" process the information. You, OTOH, need to watch the hardware closely (PTT, COR) and stream the audio content to the destination (stricter requirements). |
| 15:11.38 | prpplague | they might have been in the right area aobut 8-10 years ago |
| 15:11.53 | prpplague | but i think they are missing the boat, especially with killing of alchemy |
| 15:12.54 | T0mW | prpplague: maybe that is licensing? ARM seems to do a boutique approach: here is the core IP, then we have this other IP stuff that you can hang off of your core. |
| 15:13.10 | T0mW | s/your core/your hardware core/ |
| 15:13.48 | prpplague | T0mW: well alchemy was all amd's |
| 15:13.51 | T0mW | your customers need SSP? Bolt this on. Your customers need ethernet MAC, bolt this one one. |
| 15:15.10 | T0mW | prpplague: here is another X86 issue, not many semiconductor mfgrs offering variants. |
| 15:16.35 | T0mW | I think when we went with the 80C188, it was Intel, AMD and Fujitsu (?) that were sourcing it. Intel dropped their source, so that left two sources for chips |
| 15:17.07 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, so you were looking at a lockin |
| 15:17.13 | T0mW | yeah |
| 15:17.23 | T0mW | more a death-threat |
| 15:18.02 | T0mW | either one could bail, leaving a sole source, then the sole source could have a production / supply problem and we'd be SOL |
| 15:19.00 | T0mW | not saying that if the LPC2106 had production probs that we could get it somewhere else. heh |
| 15:19.24 | prpplague | T0mW: but moving the project to another arm would be easy enough |
| 15:19.50 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah, internal arch would be same / similar |
| 15:23.50 | prpplague | T0mW: could not the same be said for x86 ? |
| 15:24.26 | T0mW | prpplague: I never got past the power issue far enough to take it seriously enough to know. |
| 15:25.25 | prpplague | T0mW: i think alot of ppl stop there |
| 15:26.01 | T0mW | prpplague: who needs a math coprocessor and MMX for an embedded system? Maybe Apple does... |
| 15:26.49 | Crofton | I like math coprocessors for signal processing |
| 15:27.06 | T0mW | where is Jordon today? |
| 15:28.01 | file | I ate him |
| 15:28.20 | T0mW | file: hungry little sucker aren't you? |
| 15:28.43 | file | meh |
| 15:31.55 | ade|desk | easier to get the dvd no ? |
| 15:32.43 | T0mW | ade|desk: I've 300+ shows edited so far. |
| 15:33.00 | T0mW | what would that cost in DVDs? |
| 15:33.57 | ade|desk | what format are your shows in ? |
| 15:33.59 | file | too much |
| 15:34.22 | T0mW | ade|desk: they record as MPEG2 and I transcode into DIVX |
| 15:34.35 | ade|desk | groovy |
| 15:35.02 | T0mW | heh, they go onto a 860Gig LVM |
| 15:35.18 | ade|desk | std tv feed or what ? |
| 15:36.57 | T0mW | ade|desk: yeah, unfortunately, I take them off 4x3 video format from ntsc video using MythTV + Hauppauge PVR250 cards. |
| 15:38.35 | T0mW | ade|desk: I've found out, it is true: they show the same 2 or 3 hundred movies over and over again on tv |
| 15:39.23 | ade|desk | sound of music every xmas eve |
| 15:39.40 | ade|desk | and bond or superman every bank holiday in the uk |
| 15:39.49 | T0mW | lol |
| 15:40.17 | T0mW | now for Jimmy Stewart in Flight of the Phoenix |
| 15:40.42 | prpplague | good movie |
| 15:40.48 | prpplague | T0mW: did you see the remake? |
| 15:41.32 | T0mW | ade|desk: I get done work at any odd hour and sometimes just want to watch a movie. I cannot bring myself to pay $14..$30 for a DVD, so, this way I don't get as good a quality, but ... |
| 15:41.42 | T0mW | prpplague: no! There was a remake? |
| 15:41.51 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (n=root@kde/developer/chouinard) |
| 15:42.14 | T0mW | prpplague: It wouldn't be the same without Stewart |
| 15:42.21 | chouimat | morning |
| 15:42.32 | T0mW | chouimat: good afternoon |
| 15:42.42 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, i didn't think so either, but i found it one of the best remakes i've ever seen |
| 15:43.10 | chouimat | T0mW: that will be good if I can get my setup working again ... updated my main box and xinerama stopped working |
| 15:44.34 | T0mW | chouimat: I thought I lost all my movie store. A 250G drive failed in the LVM, turned out it was the last drive in the volume. |
| 15:44.34 | T0mW | only lost about 18 movies |
| 15:44.49 | chouimat | ouch |
| 15:46.00 | T0mW | yeah, I'd hate to lose this stuff, but how do you backup 600+ gig? |
| 15:46.25 | ade|desk | borrow and sdlt tape drive |
| 15:46.32 | ade|desk | s/and/an |
| 15:46.37 | T0mW | I know, put it out on the internet and people mirror it for me! |
| 15:46.39 | chouimat | T0mW: a lot of zip100 or CD ;) |
| 15:46.56 | T0mW | works for the open source people, right? |
| 15:47.16 | chouimat | T0mW: get another computer with a huge drive and backup on it |
| 15:47.35 | ade|desk | buy an HP EVA |
| 15:48.05 | T0mW | chouimat: but if I did that, and had all that storage there, I'd start using it for other purposes other than backup |
| 15:48.19 | chouimat | T0mW: get a nslu2 then ;) |
| 15:48.26 | T0mW | ade|desk: yeah, some surplus tape units |
| 15:49.50 | ade|desk | if i had the money and the power source, i'd go with a couple of EVA and put one in another building... but i dont so i can't |
| 15:51.53 | ade|desk | tape drive ~600 usd |
| 15:52.08 | ade|desk | tapes ~40 usd |
| 15:52.45 | chouimat | ade|desk: EVA? |
| 15:52.58 | MonMotha | T0mW: another 600GB worth of hard drives, duh |
| 15:53.05 | MonMotha | it's probably cheaper than anything else |
| 15:53.54 | ade|desk | http://h18006.www1.hp.com/products/storageworks/eva4000/index.html |
| 15:53.58 | T0mW | MonMotha: that has been my thinking, if I wait another 4 months, I should be able to put a 2Terabyte server online at reasonable cost. |
| 15:55.25 | MonMotha | T0mW: my current server backup solution is a Travan TR-5 I was given (along with like 20 tapes). It works, but it's slow and it friggin' eats tapes. I'm glad that it is unlikely I will ever need them (I do have a RAID 1 array) |
| 15:55.33 | MonMotha | and of course, I'm only backing up a 40GB array |
| 15:58.29 | T0mW | that is my smallest computer (ITX), I've four running in here today |
| 15:59.00 | T0mW | half my living room resembles a data processing center. :-/ |
| 15:59.44 | MonMotha | maybe if you stopped using webpals as servers... :) |
| 16:00.34 | T0mW | rotl |
| 16:00.46 | T0mW | rotfl |
| 16:01.07 | T0mW | MonMotha: no, that is my beowulf cluster |
| 16:01.39 | MonMotha | T0mW: you should post that to /. It would be a riot |
| 16:02.09 | T0mW | I wonder if you could cluster those things? Maybe get performance rivaling a Pentium-III ? |
| 16:02.22 | T0mW | P-III 800 |
| 16:02.53 | T0mW | compile the linux 2.6 kernel in 24 minutes or something like that |
| 16:03.17 | T0mW | native even, for ARM |
| 16:05.35 | *** join/#elinux CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@aus-ext-proxy01.amd.com) |
| 16:05.45 | T0mW | ~lart CosmicPenguin |
| 16:05.52 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: so there |
| 16:06.15 | CosmicPenguin | Thanks for that |
| 16:06.24 | T0mW | you are welcome sir |
| 16:06.36 | MonMotha | I'm trying to remember how many jobs you can get out of the 2.6 build process |
| 16:06.40 | MonMotha | IIRC, it's not much more than 20 |
| 16:06.52 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: anytime you wish to be abused, just stop by #elinux |
| 16:06.52 | MonMotha | i.e. make -j and make -j20 or so aren't any different |
| 16:10.18 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: prpplague and I were discussing the relative merits of using X86 processors in embedded systems. |
| 16:10.31 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: the conclusion was that we decided it was a bad thing |
| 16:14.42 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, you over stated the conclusion |
| 16:14.51 | T0mW | i did? |
| 16:14.58 | prpplague | hehe yea |
| 16:15.09 | T0mW | ah, you know me Dave, I'm such an extremist |
| 16:15.14 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:15.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i've been pondering some of the current urban myths of using x86 for embedded projects |
| 16:25.46 | T0mW | WTF is subversion BDB or FSFS ? |
| 16:26.10 | T0mW | Boink Data in Bunches or something? |
| 16:26.26 | file | berkeley db |
| 16:26.58 | T0mW | I guess I should just RTFM at least, this thing looks like it has a few rough edges to it |
| 16:28.52 | chouimat | T0mW: BDB is the backend that use berkeley bdb to store the revisions and FSFS is the one that use the filesystem, it use less space and it's somewhat faster |
| 16:38.13 | Crofton | ude fsfs |
| 16:38.22 | Crofton | then you don't need to mess with dbd |
| 16:42.15 | T0mW | ruby, swig, perl, apache2-devel, yada yada yada |
| 16:43.14 | T0mW | so, I've got to install 15 packages that will have no other use but run with svn? |
| 16:43.15 | T0mW | ! |
| 16:43.22 | T0mW | bah! |
| 16:43.46 | Crofton | what are you running it on? |
| 16:46.41 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I ponder them daily |
| 16:47.16 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i think AMD should get some web pages and PR together to combat some of these misnomers |
| 16:47.40 | CosmicPenguin | I don't think they've completely bought into it |
| 16:47.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ?? |
| 16:47.51 | T0mW | Crofton: Mandrake 10.1, I'm not sure I want to upgrade that machine to Mandriva-2006 |
| 16:48.05 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i thought thats what you said yesterday they were shooting for |
| 16:48.18 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: AMD wants to sell embedded x86 chips |
| 16:48.24 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: but I don't think they know what that means |
| 16:48.30 | T0mW | yeah |
| 16:48.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 16:48.40 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: *I* know what that means - and I need you here to help me spread the gospel |
| 16:48.47 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:48.56 | T0mW | "there is a source of revenue out there that we haven't tapped into yet..." |
| 16:49.00 | file | wow, my brother is finally writing his GED |
| 16:49.14 | T0mW | file: LOL |
| 16:49.32 | file | I was speechless when my mother told me |
| 16:49.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: sounds like AMD needs a better battle plan |
| 16:49.58 | T0mW | file: A friend of mine, who makes very good money as a printer, finally got his GED at age 46 |
| 16:50.17 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: it starts with the engineering core |
| 16:50.42 | T0mW | file: I guess he is going to hold the class re-union at the post office? |
| 16:50.45 | file | now, I wonder if he's going to actually get it... |
| 16:51.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the three things that keep coming up when i speak to ppl about using x86 for embedded, are 1) power consumtion, 2) design complexity, and 3) lack of control with things like the bios |
| 16:52.01 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: good points |
| 16:52.31 | CosmicPenguin | #3 is mainly political and business |
| 16:53.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed, but for mid sized business who has a very specific design in mind, the control of the design is important |
| 16:53.51 | T0mW | yeah, if it X86 based it must be compatible with Windows... |
| 16:54.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: is there an open source bios for the geode? |
| 16:54.27 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: no doubt - but the BIOS actually ends up being much less evil then you think - and we publish much greater documentation then regular desktop vendors |
| 16:54.49 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: no - but there isn't any reaason why there should be, save time and expense |
| 16:55.06 | CosmicPenguin | s/should/shouldn't/ |
| 16:55.34 | CosmicPenguin | I continue to lobby for a loader |
| 16:55.45 | T0mW | and JTAG |
| 16:55.56 | CosmicPenguin | ? |
| 16:56.03 | prpplague | T0mW: jtag is available for the geode |
| 16:56.13 | T0mW | ok, keep it then |
| 16:56.14 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah, we're good for jtag |
| 16:56.29 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: I was voting |
| 16:57.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: case in point, i know that my device will always need the first rs-232 com port enabled, what happens when the bios gives the end user the option to disable or change the settings |
| 16:57.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or if the setting i need is different than the default configuration |
| 16:58.00 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: the "BIOS" is not a set item |
| 16:58.19 | CosmicPenguin | Your platform needs the first UART always there, then the BIOS rom gets written to make that happen |
| 16:58.49 | T0mW | One reason I won't use an embedded x86 is that the 80c18x is limited to 1Meg and you have to run 80386 in enhanced mode (I think) to access several megs of flash / ram |
| 16:59.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed, but my point is, the PHB's are gonna ask themselves, "we are design this board, and if our needs changes are we gonna have to call upon a bios provider every time?" |
| 16:59.14 | T0mW | not sure if MMU is needed to do that though |
| 16:59.32 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Ok, I guess - but I think thats not a limitation of the hardware architecture in any way |
| 16:59.43 | T0mW | ARM is simple, plug the SDRAM onto the bus and just use it |
| 17:00.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no its not, but it is something that is keeping mid size biz from going with x86 and going with arm instead |
| 17:00.02 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: and I'm going to venture a guess that serious ARM customer use a commerical loader too, so its the same thing |
| 17:00.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but they can modify the loader themselves in most cases |
| 17:00.30 | CosmicPenguin | If they buy the source code |
| 17:00.34 | CosmicPenguin | Same difference with the BIOS |
| 17:01.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed if we are talking commercial items |
| 17:01.16 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and i wasn't aware BIOS code was available for licensing |
| 17:01.46 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I work for a Fortune 500 company - despite the fact that my primary job is to interface with the community, the commercial guys still do pay the bills... :) |
| 17:02.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: understood, but amd wants to sell chips not bios code |
| 17:02.23 | kergoth | morning |
| 17:02.32 | prpplague | kergoth: hey bud |
| 17:02.33 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: exactly |
| 17:02.41 | *** mode/#elinux [+v CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 17:02.43 | prpplague | kergoth: seen sjhill around? |
| 17:03.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: if you look at almost any ARM vendor, there is sample boot code available from the vendor |
| 17:04.13 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: point taken |
| 17:04.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: (don't get me wrong, i'm just working from a devil's advocate position to understand some things) |
| 17:04.21 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: I have one design with an 80C188 that I'm going to replace that with an ARM processor rather than some other x86 chip |
| 17:05.23 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: I agree, the x86 is targeted at applications requiring a moderately featured operating system |
| 17:05.33 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: so, point is that I am a commercial customer who is not interesting in the current X86 offerings |
| 17:05.34 | CosmicPenguin | Plus, the price, low as it is, is still too high for your applications |
| 17:05.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i think if you are gonna be able to make a dent in the market with an x86 embedded target, you are gonna have to get into the minds of those that are choosing ARM over x86 |
| 17:05.51 | CosmicPenguin | We're not looking to go that low |
| 17:06.06 | CosmicPenguin | We can't possibly compete at that level |
| 17:06.11 | CosmicPenguin | Xscale - yes - we can go there |
| 17:06.13 | T0mW | but ARM keeps getting "bigger": ARM6 |
| 17:06.19 | T0mW | ARMv6 |
| 17:06.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i expect that within a few years, ARM will start competeing for desktop space |
| 17:06.48 | T0mW | I can migrate from ARMv4 --> ARMv6 fairly easily |
| 17:07.01 | CosmicPenguin | And if ARM starts competing for the desktop space, then it will come right smack up against us |
| 17:07.10 | CosmicPenguin | but I don't care about the desktop space... :) |
| 17:07.13 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: no it won't |
| 17:07.29 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: it will come up against me, the developer |
| 17:07.40 | prpplague | T0mW: ?? |
| 17:08.04 | Genesis | not against me , the unemployed |
| 17:08.09 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: if "you" (AMD) don't give me what I want / need, I will design you out |
| 17:08.30 | CosmicPenguin | Thats a given |
| 17:09.02 | T0mW | So, you can have the very best part, but if you cannot enable me, the hardware engineer, to use it, or utilize it, you don't sell parts |
| 17:09.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm just thinking if amd really wants to get in their, they are gonna have to attack the myths and to some extent , the facts that driving ppl to ARM |
| 17:09.38 | CosmicPenguin | We're not going to be in the next gen juice box |
| 17:09.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed |
| 17:09.51 | CosmicPenguin | thats just not what we are designed for |
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| 17:10.00 | CosmicPenguin | So if thats competing against ARM, then maybe we don't compete with ARM |
| 17:10.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but what about other devices such as network enabled devices, STB's, datacollection and such |
| 17:10.32 | CosmicPenguin | Ok - lets talk about those |
| 17:11.30 | CosmicPenguin | Obviously power consumption means less in those areas , as long as you can keep the fan off |
| 17:11.36 | T0mW | I would rather be X86 based, there is a wealth of software code generators that I could utilize to build code with. ARM is still restrictive in that regards, |
| 17:12.21 | prpplague | ok, my boss walks in and says we have a new customer that needs a stationary data collection device, hmm, i just finished a handheld with ARM, familiar with the parts/design, i already have the parts in stock since we are buying it for other projects |
| 17:12.33 | prpplague | shall i grab another device, or go with what is familiar? |
| 17:12.36 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: ok, dammit - if you're more comfortable with ARM, then use it |
| 17:13.07 | T0mW | he's not saying that |
| 17:13.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: sorry, sorry, don't take it as i'm attacking, just trying to look at it from a different angle |
| 17:13.34 | T0mW | It's the hurdle you have to go over just to work with interfacing hardware to the X86 bus |
| 17:13.43 | CosmicPenguin | I disagree |
| 17:14.03 | CosmicPenguin | For most shops that are moving down into embedded rather then up from embedded, x86 is probably more familiar |
| 17:14.10 | CosmicPenguin | You guys are coming at it from a completely different direction |
| 17:14.17 | T0mW | right |
| 17:14.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh good point |
| 17:14.29 | T0mW | from small to larger chips |
| 17:14.31 | CosmicPenguin | If you go from handheld collection devices to a NAS, of course you're going to use an ARM |
| 17:14.36 | CosmicPenguin | because thats what you're familiar with |
| 17:14.44 | T0mW | 8051 anyway |
| 17:14.46 | CosmicPenguin | But if Wyse goes from a thin client to the same NAS, they'll use an x86 |
| 17:14.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i can see that |
| 17:15.10 | T0mW | I dunno |
| 17:15.13 | CosmicPenguin | I don't expect that we'll win many converts from the heavily embedded world |
| 17:15.28 | T0mW | I've spoken to two manufacturers currently using the P3 processor |
| 17:15.31 | CosmicPenguin | But I think that our strength is that we have the x86 familiarity behind us |
| 17:15.32 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but why not? |
| 17:15.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the geode is an embedded SOC design is it not? |
| 17:15.50 | T0mW | they are familiar with X86 and are looking seriously into moving to ARM |
| 17:15.53 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: for exactly the reasons you detailed - if you've always used an ARM, then you're less likely to switch |
| 17:16.06 | CosmicPenguin | Heck - we're banking on reluctance to switch away from x86 |
| 17:16.20 | prpplague | ahh i see |
| 17:16.20 | T0mW | it maybe is there to some degree |
| 17:16.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: gotcha |
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| 17:16.59 | CosmicPenguin | If you have a new shop thats trying to build a Linux based plugged in device -I think we can compete |
| 17:17.10 | CosmicPenguin | on a technical basis, that is |
| 17:17.27 | T0mW | IMO, this is why Motorola has failed in the embedded market. They came at the market with a mainframe attitude |
| 17:17.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: are there any dev boards available with geode similiar to this - http://www.linuxdevices.com/products/PD8437958536.html |
| 17:18.55 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah - cept for the flash controller |
| 17:19.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: url? |
| 17:19.57 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: hold on, let me find it |
| 17:20.10 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: what you want is either the Salsa or the Rumba |
| 17:20.40 | CosmicPenguin | stupid website |
| 17:21.27 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/0,,50_2330_9863_13022%5E13060,00.html |
| 17:21.35 | T0mW | prpplague: btw, the 80C188 board I'm replacing with ARM? I designed that board |
| 17:22.03 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/0,,50_2330_9863_10524%5E12595,00.html |
| 17:22.07 | CosmicPenguin | THat one is like the Sokris |
| 17:22.23 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/0,,50_2330_9863_9864%5E10846,00.html |
| 17:22.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: those are entire boards though |
| 17:22.41 | CosmicPenguin | you asked for dev boards... :) |
| 17:23.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: oh i was asking move for a geode based cpu board in a DIMM form factor |
| 17:23.14 | CosmicPenguin | Oh, heh |
| 17:23.14 | CosmicPenguin | no |
| 17:23.16 | CosmicPenguin | nothing like that |
| 17:23.34 | CosmicPenguin | We can't get our package that small |
| 17:23.52 | CosmicPenguin | There might be some SC1100 or SC1200 out there - you would have to check google |
| 17:24.05 | CosmicPenguin | All I know about is what we have around here - but we don't see many customer boards here |
| 17:25.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the Elan series is dead right? |
| 17:26.33 | T0mW | prpplague: been dead for years, amd just hasn't discontinued it yet |
| 17:26.35 | T0mW | heh |
| 17:28.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: interesting stuff |
| 17:29.11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hope you didn't get bent out of shape, just tyring to understand some concepts and direction for geode |
| 17:29.30 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: no, its good to ask these questions |
| 17:29.36 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: and I trust your opinion on these matters |
| 17:30.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: now see i'd be interested in this board - http://linuxdevices.com/files/misc/lippert_cool_frontrunner.jpg |
| 17:30.25 | T0mW | I'm a bit bent out of shape over the fact that there is nothing out there in X86 that will meet my current design needs. |
| 17:30.46 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: but you're needs are just outside of the scope of the 386+ |
| 17:31.13 | T0mW | not really |
| 17:31.26 | T0mW | several megs of RAM outside of that? |
| 17:31.39 | T0mW | it is over what an '88 will do |
| 17:31.40 | CosmicPenguin | Well, you don't want to go into protected mode - that sort of kills things right there |
| 17:32.05 | T0mW | I also need LCD controller DSTN, SPI/SSP controller |
| 17:32.19 | T0mW | and an Ethernet MAC |
| 17:32.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: that is a nice pc/104, i could do without the ide interface and the pci |
| 17:32.34 | T0mW | power consumption below 400mw |
| 17:32.40 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 17:32.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: as well as the form factor would need to be different |
| 17:33.20 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: yeah, well - we can't compete with that. Have you considered the Alchemy? :) |
| 17:33.49 | T0mW | no I haven't |
| 17:34.07 | CosmicPenguin | If I was in charge, I would demand a half watt x86 SoC |
| 17:34.08 | T0mW | but you're discontinuing that right? |
| 17:34.11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the alchemy desgin is wholly amd? |
| 17:34.12 | CosmicPenguin | but I'm not in charge |
| 17:34.25 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: no, we aquired it |
| 17:34.31 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 17:34.46 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: there are no more chips in the pipeline, but we haven't EOLed any of them |
| 17:34.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so part of the core is licensed from some other group? |
| 17:34.52 | T0mW | screw PCI, they could lose the PCI / PC-Card bus and I'd never miss it |
| 17:34.58 | CosmicPenguin | well, the MIPS is of course licensed - but we own the IP |
| 17:35.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: right |
| 17:35.34 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, i might prefer isa if i needed expansion |
| 17:35.39 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 17:35.48 | T0mW | spi/ssp for expansion |
| 17:36.03 | prpplague | T0mW: just that circuit cellar has lots of projects for isa, hehe |
| 17:36.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'd also dump the DOC, and go with an xD socket |
| 17:36.52 | CosmicPenguin | xD is through SPI? |
| 17:37.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no, sd/mmc would go through spi |
| 17:37.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: xD is more bus oriented |
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| 17:37.38 | CosmicPenguin | what bus though - does it need its own host controller? |
| 17:38.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no you can access it from a standard memmory map |
| 17:38.46 | CosmicPenguin | oh - its on the memory lines |
| 17:38.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: xD would require 8 data lines and atleast 5 control lines |
| 17:38.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 17:38.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: would be easy to add |
| 17:38.58 | CosmicPenguin | Somebody should do that |
| 17:39.22 | CosmicPenguin | What we should do is hire you to design us boards |
| 17:39.41 | prpplague | hehe, so you wanna go out of business eh? |
| 17:41.43 | T0mW | prpplague: http://www.snopes.com/photos/tallwoman.asp |
| 17:43.54 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe yea i've seen that |
| 17:44.14 | prpplague | T0mW: they had one girl at the nudie bar in dallas that was 6-3 |
| 17:44.23 | T0mW | :P |
| 17:45.03 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, standing up, my eyes were basically at her chest area, hehe |
| 17:45.18 | T0mW | prpplague: so, when you talked with her you had to be careful about where you put your nose? |
| 17:45.26 | chouimat | lol |
| 17:45.38 | T0mW | while sitting down... |
| 17:45.55 | prpplague | no comment |
| 17:46.04 | T0mW | :) |
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| 17:57.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: recommend some gx2 based pc104 boards? |
| 17:58.21 | CosmicPenguin | I haven't played with many |
| 17:58.27 | CosmicPenguin | I usually only see our own RDKs here |
| 17:58.55 | prpplague | ahh |
| 17:59.52 | CosmicPenguin | Which is probably why I want somebody to make me more cool RDKs |
| 17:59.57 | CosmicPenguin | xD would be a great thing to have |
| 18:00.00 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:02.14 | CosmicPenguin | That woudl be a wicked nice embedded demo |
| 18:02.25 | CosmicPenguin | plug something interesting into the GPIOS |
| 18:03.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, would be cute to interface to the gba xport, hehe |
| 18:05.10 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 18:05.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or maybe the gba movie player |
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| 18:14.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: now see, this is an x86 board i would purchase to tinker with - http://www.jkmicro.com/products/flashlite.html |
| 18:15.59 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: so its just a matter of a lack of available boards in cool form factors, rather then the architecture itself |
| 18:16.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea i think thats probably the big block |
| 18:17.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: too many of the current boards are more like scaled down pc's |
| 18:17.20 | CosmicPenguin | That is a problem |
| 18:17.33 | CosmicPenguin | Well, we've identified a market need |
| 18:17.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: keep the pc compatibility, but give it an embedded feel |
| 18:18.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: our design cycle usually consists of us purchasing 2 or 3 dev boards, adding out custom hardware to it, and testing |
| 18:19.11 | CosmicPenguin | Right |
| 18:19.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: once we have proof of concept, we design our own |
| 18:19.16 | kergoth | http://phraktured.net/blog/2006/01/23/pycomplete-03/ <-that is sweet |
| 18:19.19 | CosmicPenguin | but you could do that with our reference designs too |
| 18:19.22 | kergoth | python omnicompletion for vim7 |
| 18:19.38 | CosmicPenguin | Unless the whole form factor thing comes into play |
| 18:19.40 | Crofton | kergoth, you in Scottsdale now? |
| 18:19.43 | kergoth | yep |
| 18:19.47 | CosmicPenguin | sometimes people just can't see a solution until they see it in the right light |
| 18:19.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: agreed, but we generally want a system that has just the core, and then add to it |
| 18:19.53 | Crofton | GD is prime on LW right? |
| 18:20.24 | kergoth | yeah |
| 18:20.57 | Crofton | heh, we may get a quick gig doing a 3 day course for them out there |
| 18:21.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: does you ref design have plenty of gpio? |
| 18:21.09 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: yeah, generally |
| 18:21.28 | kergoth | Crofton: course on what? |
| 18:21.42 | Crofton | sw radio stuff |
| 18:21.46 | Crofton | intro |
| 18:21.52 | kergoth | ah |
| 18:22.11 | Crofton | say the words JTRS and see if people snicker |
| 18:22.15 | Crofton | I am curious :) |
| 18:22.28 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:24.06 | Crofton | kergoth, you might find this interesting |
| 18:25.00 | Crofton | http://www.ccm.ece.vt.edu/etextiles/ |
| 18:30.30 | kergoth | slick |
| 18:37.24 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 18:37.34 | prpplague | kergoth: hows the new gig working out? |
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| 18:54.49 | prpplague | mbuf: evening |
| 18:55.50 | prpplague | mbuf: just about time for some alu gobi and a beer, hehe |
| 18:56.15 | kergoth | prpplague: pretty good. things are pretty hectic though, they dont have a lot of time to be training... trial by fire |
| 18:56.23 | kergoth | clueful group of folks |
| 18:56.23 | prpplague | kergoth: hehe yea |
| 18:56.58 | kergoth | vim 7 rocks. omnicompletion... check out omnicompletion in a C file in the tslib codebase. pops up a list of candidates to choose from -> http://kergoth.com/files/omni001.jpg |
| 18:57.04 | prpplague | kergoth: i wondered if the atmosphere there was pretty military oriented |
| 18:57.39 | prpplague | kergoth: yea, there are some similiar modules for midnight commanders editior |
| 18:57.53 | kergoth | prpplague: its surprisingly relaxed. i think its because we arent the prime on the project, and its a small team. company has like a thousand employees, but in scottsdale there are only around 30 of us |
| 18:59.50 | prpplague | kergoth: ahh lovely |
| 19:00.34 | prpplague | ok who wants to start the betting pool for how long kergoth with stay at his new job? |
| 19:09.46 | mbuf | prpplague, hey hi |
| 19:09.59 | mbuf | prpplague, sorry, was playing with the board, forgot about this irc |
| 19:10.39 | mbuf | prpplague, wanted to inform you, http://www.littlechips.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110 and http://shakthimaan.com/installs/ln2410sbc.html |
| 19:12.05 | prpplague | mbuf: lovely |
| 19:14.05 | mbuf | prpplague, thanks, i'll probably start working on the device drivers this weekend |
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| 22:45.31 | zx80user | I need to run alsaconf on my busybox installation - but it fails because of a lack of a modinfo - is there a way round this? |
| 22:57.26 | CosmicPenguin | I have no idea what you are talking about |
| 23:00.46 | zx80user | OK. I'll explain. |
| 23:01.36 | zx80user | I am writing a driver for the soundcard on the Dreamcast (I previously wrote the OSS driver now I am trying to write an ALSA driver) |
| 23:02.18 | zx80user | To test it I want to run the alsa utils - which require an alsa.conf file which is created by the app alsaconf |
| 23:02.31 | zx80user | when i run alsaconf I get this: |
| 23:02.55 | zx80user | /usr/sbin/alsaconf: /usr/sbin/alsaconf: 155: /sbin/modinfo: not found |
| 23:02.55 | zx80user | /usr/sbin/alsaconf: /usr/sbin/alsaconf: 165: /sbin/modinfo: not found |
| 23:02.55 | zx80user | /usr/sbin/alsaconf: /usr/sbin/alsaconf: 170: /sbin/modinfo: not found |
| 23:02.55 | zx80user | Error, dialog or whiptail not found. |
| 23:03.34 | zx80user | So I was wondering if anyone else had this problem with their busybox setup (BB appears to have no modinfo available) and what they did to get round it |
| 23:04.11 | zx80user | (alsaconf is a shell script rather than a binary btw) |
| 23:04.48 | CosmicPenguin | Ok |
| 23:05.01 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah, you'll probably want to create an alsa.conf somewhere else and copy it to your target |
| 23:23.09 | zx80user | CosmicPenguin, actually there is a modinfo hidden away inside buildroot, so I'll test that |
| 23:23.39 | CosmicPenguin | Whatever suits you |
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