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| 08:17.18 | Russ | oh dear god, help us all http://imdb.com/title/tt0453556/ |
| 08:28.22 | fishhead | cool |
| 08:28.30 | fishhead | my nephew will freak out : |
| 08:28.32 | fishhead | :D |
| 08:36.39 | Russ | 'This situation, called "priority inversion," tends to be followed by system failure, upset users, and unemployed engineers' |
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| 11:32.58 | Crofton | heh |
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| 13:20.02 | Gerrath | does anyone know of a good honest comparision of Windows CE verses Linux |
| 13:22.14 | prpplague | Gerrath: kinda hard to compare elephants to gezzells |
| 13:23.16 | prpplague | Gerrath: what is it you want to compare? customer UI acceptance, size, platform availability, costs |
| 13:25.00 | Gerrath | prpplague, LOL I agree but I need to sale it to my company. Costs, time to market, features: Bluetooth, USB, MMC, ethernet. Basic frame buffer driver and lib for simple images/fonts |
| 13:25.33 | Gerrath | I was supprised that CE was only $3 per lisense with its basic system (no web browser). |
| 13:26.01 | Gerrath | I'm very against CE but I need to do a unbiased anaylsis to sale to everyone else :) |
| 13:28.23 | prpplague | thats a pretty tall task getting those comparisons |
| 13:28.34 | prpplague | i think the hardware support should be easy to make a table |
| 13:28.46 | prpplague | but the time to market stuff is gonna vary |
| 13:29.47 | Gerrath | prpplague, Have you delt with power management and Linux on ARM processors? |
| 13:31.07 | Gerrath | prpplague, I have done a good bit with Linux on desktops including some minor kernel module work but this would be my first embedded project. |
| 13:34.31 | Gerrath | prpplague, What kinds of snags did you run into when setting up Linux on an ARM processor? |
| 13:37.24 | Gerrath | prpplague: Sorry I'm jumping around on my comments: Yes the hardware table comparison will be easy. The Bluetooth is just for serial connection so it can be done through a UART and very simply. THe USB I'm assuming is easy since it fairly supported in Linux for mass storage which is what we want. |
| 13:37.37 | Gerrath | ethernet is supported as well. |
| 13:38.10 | Gerrath | I'm assuming I will need to write the low level drivers for USB, ethernet, audio and LCD. |
| 13:38.44 | prpplague | Gerrath: there are alot of gotchas for usb in general |
| 13:38.51 | prpplague | Gerrath: including the mass storage |
| 13:39.32 | prpplague | Gerrath: remember to use the mass storage with most devices you'll need to have it formated to file system that is support by all the OS's , i.e. fat |
| 13:39.43 | Gerrath | prpplague, I guess that is something I'm lacking some knowlege on. If I have to write the low level drivers for USB, ethernet, LCD and audio what amount of work is normally involved to get that done? |
| 13:39.48 | prpplague | Gerrath: in addition only one OS can access the mass storage as rw at a time |
| 13:40.02 | Gerrath | the rw issue is fine. |
| 13:40.16 | prpplague | Gerrath: rarely do you need to write something from scratch, its mostly tweaking these days |
| 13:40.34 | Gerrath | prpplague, so the embedded system will need FAT support compiled in. |
| 13:41.04 | Gerrath | prpplague, I don't think that would be a problem. |
| 13:41.08 | cbrake | Gerrath: I have done quite a bit of both CE and Linux dev if you have any specific questions. |
| 13:41.33 | Gerrath | cbrake, have you used CE 5.0? |
| 13:41.37 | prpplague | Gerrath: those are pretty big issues when using most linux embedded devices |
| 13:41.59 | Gerrath | prpplague, what are pretty big issues? |
| 13:42.09 | cbrake | Gerrath: yes |
| 13:43.02 | cbrake | Gerrath: like anything else, CE & Linux have their strengths and weeknesses |
| 13:43.18 | Gerrath | cbrake if you were starting from scratch and you needed to design a system with USB, ethernet, audio, Bluetooth and a simple color LCD (static images and text) which do you think you would choose? |
| 13:43.23 | cbrake | Gerrath: I think CE's biggest strength is application dev, consistent set of tools, etc. |
| 13:44.00 | cbrake | Gerrath: the big strength of Linux is flexibility, JFFS2 -- you can do whatever you want with it, and I think the driver selection is much better and of much higher quality. |
| 13:44.29 | cbrake | Gerrath: Linux :-) |
| 13:44.41 | Gerrath | one of our concerns is powerdown, our battery can be pulled out at any time with no back-up. jffs2 handles that does CE 5.0? |
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| 13:45.08 | cbrake | Gerrath: CE's flash filesystem support is pretty weak compared to JFFS2 |
| 13:45.15 | prpplague | Gerrath: using FAT in an embedded linux device as well as the only one OS can access the mass storage in rw at a time |
| 13:46.12 | Gerrath | cbrake, that is an issue. I'm not concerned about the USB mass storage during power down but our on board flash file system must be VERY robust. |
| 13:46.34 | cbrake | Gerrath: they have what the call TFAT, but I think it is something like FAT w/ redundant tables. |
| 13:46.50 | prpplague | Gerrath: well fat and robust don't belong together in a sentence |
| 13:47.01 | cbrake | Gerrath: I think most people use datalight if they want a robust filesystem on Linux. |
| 13:47.10 | cbrake | prpplague: agreed. |
| 13:47.33 | cbrake | Gerrath: Intel also provides IPSM if you use their chips -- it seems to be fairly robust. |
| 13:48.03 | cbrake | Gerrath: but JffS2 is really nice -- a big reason to use Linux. |
| 13:48.08 | prpplague | Gerrath: we are using a combination ramdisk and jffs2 for our battery device |
| 13:48.10 | Gerrath | cbrake and prpplague, I will have to check into datalight. Yes I'm looking at the Intel PXA270 and the Sharp A404... Can't decide between the two yet. |
| 13:48.38 | prpplague | Gerrath: let me be the first to tell you, avoid sharp processor like the plague (no pun intended) |
| 13:48.48 | Gerrath | really, why? |
| 13:48.57 | cbrake | Gerrath: another problem with CE, is the root filesystem tends to be one big blog where you can't upgrade pieces of it very easily. |
| 13:49.20 | cbrake | Gerrath: where with Linux on JFFS2 it is just a filesystem -- replace what you want whenever you want. |
| 13:50.05 | cbrake | Gerrath: gahh, s/blog/blob |
| 13:52.23 | Gerrath | what about file compression, jffs2 does it automatically, does tfat? |
| 13:52.28 | cbrake | Gerrath: but, it seems that the application developers seem to drive OS selection. Most projects have a team many app dev's to one or two system sw dev's, so in many cases, the app devs want windows. |
| 13:52.40 | Gerrath | prpplague, what is wrong with the sharp processors? |
| 13:52.57 | cbrake | Gerrath: no, tfat does not do compression. |
| 13:53.08 | Gerrath | how do you handle that with CE? |
| 13:54.02 | Gerrath | cbrake and prpplague, I'm assuming most embedded Linux systems would take advantage of JFFS2 compression, correct? |
| 13:54.29 | cbrake | Gerrath: depends on your needs. If you need RW, JFFS2 is the way to go. |
| 13:54.40 | cbrake | Gerrath: if you don't need RW, there is cramfs, squashfs, etc. |
| 13:57.49 | cbrake | Gerrath: I wrote a paper that might interest you: http://bec-systems.com/web/content/view/35/37/ |
| 13:57.51 | Gerrath | cbrake, we do a lot of data writing (flags and ECGs), we're a medical company. That brings up another point, do you know if tfat does write balancing for flash? I know jffs2 does. Our products are around for a long time, I would not want flash to burn out because the file system keeps writing to the same address. |
| 13:58.09 | cbrake | Gerrath: I've been thinking about writing a Linux/CE comparison, but have not got around to it yet. |
| 13:58.41 | Gerrath | cbrake, I would be willing to help you in any way that I could. |
| 14:07.10 | cbrake | Gerrath: I don't think TFAT does wear leveling, but MS introduced some additional flash layers in CE 5.0 that are supposed to do this. |
| 14:07.38 | cbrake | Gerrath: I have never implemented this as it was new at the time and IPSM was a "safer" solution. |
| 14:08.33 | cbrake | Gerrath: Flash Filesystems are pretty difficult to get right, so with my last CE project I was a little hesitant to use the latest MS stuff. |
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| 14:28.55 | Gerrath | cbrake, do you know why prpplague recommended against the sharp ARM? |
| 14:29.20 | prpplague | Gerrath: did you not get my response? |
| 14:29.41 | Gerrath | no, I missed it, and I didn't see you on the channel. |
| 14:29.51 | prpplague | ahh i dropped connection |
| 14:30.05 | prpplague | <prpplague> Gerrath: support problems, poor documentation, tons of errata, BSP is lacking, high min qty orders |
| 14:30.05 | prpplague | <prpplague> Gerrath: the list goes on and on and on |
| 14:30.05 | prpplague | <prpplague> Gerrath: i'd look more to either the pxa series or the samsung s3c24xx series |
| 14:30.06 | prpplague | <prpplague> Gerrath: pxa has alot of people doing dev , but the life cycle of most intel chips is pretty short compared to other companies |
| 14:30.11 | Gerrath | prpplague, your an admin so your name is at the tom in my list so I missed it. |
| 14:31.14 | Gerrath | replace tom with top. |
| 14:33.05 | CosmicPenguin | Morning folks |
| 14:33.36 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey |
| 14:33.52 | Gerrath | prpplague, geeze and the main reason I was interested in the sharp was that sharp had their on BSP and seem to be actively developing it. |
| 14:34.53 | prpplague | Gerrath: beewoollie does their bsp support, but he hasn't been doing an dev for them in awhile |
| 14:35.15 | prpplague | Gerrath: just think this way |
| 14:35.24 | prpplague | Gerrath: who makes the zaurus pda? |
| 14:35.41 | Gerrath | of course, Sharp. |
| 14:36.17 | prpplague | Gerrath: what processor does the zaurus line use? |
| 14:37.30 | ade|desk | prpplague: but its like IBM PC div used DOS rather than OS/2 .... the company has to use the cheapest cpu, this may or may not be from the same group |
| 14:38.11 | ade|desk | but yes sharp cpus suck |
| 14:38.25 | prpplague | ade|desk: i would think production wise, it would be cheaper to buy from themselves |
| 14:38.34 | Gerrath | thanks prpplague and ade|desk |
| 14:38.51 | prpplague | ade|desk: i can tell you in bunches of 10,000 sharps' chips are far cheap than pxa |
| 14:38.56 | Gerrath | prpplague, business units very rarely give each other deals. |
| 14:39.21 | Gerrath | prpplague, they are run as seperate companies. I also recieved better pricing on the sharp verses the intel. |
| 14:39.24 | prpplague | Gerrath: understood, but it doesn't speak well imho |
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| 14:40.04 | ade|desk | prpplague: you'd think so .. but not always the case. before Hitachi bought IBM PC storage drive div, IBM PC used Quantum.. cos it was cheaper |
| 14:40.39 | ade|desk | its a wacky world out there |
| 14:40.41 | prpplague | ade|desk: well thats the whole point the sharp chips are cheaper |
| 14:41.38 | ade|desk | lol oh well sharp == stupid |
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| 15:02.44 | prpplague | tsowell: you get anything back on your extension yet? |
| 15:03.39 | T0mW | philips is fast! I asked for samples of the LPC2138 ARM micros last Thursday and they FED-EX'ed me them from Asia! |
| 15:04.12 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe |
| 15:05.29 | T0mW | I thought there would be at least a 3 week wait for them |
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| 15:26.42 | T0mW | prpplague: overnite from Hong Kong, wonder what that cost? |
| 15:27.13 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe |
| 15:29.42 | CosmicPenguin | Is it even possible? |
| 15:29.55 | CosmicPenguin | Thats a 14 hour plane ride just to LA |
| 15:30.35 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: lets see, if it is Tuesday in Hong Kong, what day is it here? |
| 15:30.47 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 15:31.04 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: Bill Of Lading says shipped on 4/18. But which side of the dateline? |
| 15:31.12 | CosmicPenguin | When they say overnight at FedEx, they mean in the originating city? |
| 15:31.31 | T0mW | ? who knows |
| 15:31.39 | CosmicPenguin | Thats cheating, isn't it? |
| 15:32.57 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: http://www.fedex.com/Tracking?ascend_header=1&clienttype=dotcom&cntry_code=us&language=english&tracknumbers=6511+2272+1116 |
| 15:35.18 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: when I was a kid, going 22miles into town once a week to do shopping was a big deal |
| 15:35.59 | file | T0mW: nice. |
| 15:36.10 | T0mW | heh, when I was a kid, we didn't have TV |
| 15:36.42 | file | http://iship.com/trackit/track.asp?T=1&ACCOUNTNO=AISHIP&Track=651122721116 I like that site better for tracking |
| 15:37.58 | T0mW | takes longer to get the PCB made than it does to get the chips, caps and resistors. |
| 15:45.19 | prpplague | http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=COM10705 |
| 15:50.23 | prpplague | tsowell: wheeee, got an email, looks like my extension was accepted |
| 15:50.52 | T0mW | prpplague: darn, does that mean you are not going to federal prison? |
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| 15:55.30 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe |
| 15:55.50 | prpplague | T0mW: techincally i automatically get a 3 month extension for being outside the country |
| 15:55.56 | prpplague | T0mW: but i like to cover my ass |
| 16:03.36 | CosmicPenguin | I like to cover my ass too, but its hard to find clothes that big |
| 16:09.44 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: yeah, especially in puce, orange, lime green, ... |
| 16:09.56 | CosmicPenguin | Hey! Who showed you my closet? |
| 16:10.09 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 16:47.35 | prpplague | andersee: ho ho ho |
| 16:50.32 | prpplague | T0mW: http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/uclinux/ucl_base.php |
| 16:52.01 | andersee | prpplague: morning |
| 16:53.21 | andersee | prpplague: spiffy looking board |
| 16:53.49 | prpplague | andersee: hehe yea i've been curious about the lpc stuff for awhile |
| 16:53.57 | prpplague | andersee: but this board also has an enc28j60 on it |
| 16:54.08 | prpplague | andersee: an suppossedly they have a working uclinux driver |
| 16:54.22 | prpplague | andersee: which i'd like to compare with the one i wrote |
| 16:54.44 | prpplague | ~exchange 200 EUR to USD |
| 16:55.25 | prpplague | hmm |
| 16:55.27 | prpplague | dare i? |
| 16:56.37 | andersee | depends how rich and board you are... |
| 16:57.00 | prpplague | andersee: i'm neither |
| 16:57.14 | prpplague | andersee: really my big interest is seeing their enc28j60 driver |
| 16:57.30 | prpplague | andersee: i would really like to see how well i did |
| 16:57.38 | prpplague | (or poorly) |
| 16:58.26 | prpplague | andersee: my first network driver from scratch |
| 17:01.16 | andersee | and their driver was developed independently, or is a derivitive of yours? |
| 17:01.40 | prpplague | andersee: independently |
| 17:02.21 | andersee | so you can compare, contrast, and cherry pick any improvements (should there be any) |
| 17:02.28 | prpplague | andersee: hehe yea |
| 17:02.52 | prpplague | andersee: mainly i want to just get an idea about how i approached the development |
| 17:03.44 | prpplague | andersee: i've done alot of block and char, so i have a pretty good idea about debugging methods for those, the network stuff seems a little more difficult |
| 17:04.01 | prpplague | andersee: because i really wan't sure about the best way to isolate problems |
| 17:04.37 | T0mW | prpplague: here is the silly aspect of that board. If you take the cost of the LPC2292 processor + 8Meg PSRAM + 2Meg Flash, you are at the same cost of an EP7312 core system and the EP7312 has an MMU |
| 17:05.15 | T0mW | you might be $5 more on the EP7312 system, depending, but it would not be uClinux. |
| 17:05.23 | prpplague | T0mW: agreed |
| 17:05.31 | andersee | T0mW: which is precisely why these days I generally shy away from uClinux |
| 17:05.36 | prpplague | T0mW: i was mainly interested as a learning tool |
| 17:05.48 | T0mW | replace the EP7312 with an EP9302 and you get a 1/10/100 ethernet MAC for about the same cost |
| 17:06.21 | prpplague | just not enough time in the day |
| 17:06.25 | andersee | T0mW: these days, the pain and cost of walking the road less travelled hardly seems jurtified |
| 17:06.33 | T0mW | remove the big Flash and put a smaller one on it, then boot from SPI miniSD |
| 17:06.51 | andersee | s/jurtified/justified/ |
| 17:07.08 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:08.06 | T0mW | andersee: yeah, I've been wrestling with how to put an core ARM system together with: MMU, 16Meg SDRAM, and Ethernet. Been looking over parts again today. Cirrus still looks attractive |
| 17:08.41 | T0mW | EP7312 + CS8900 or EP9302 |
| 17:08.47 | prpplague | andersee: hehe, 9 years doing linux application and kernel dev, and i'm just _now_ writing my first net driver, guess i'm a slow learner, hehe |
| 17:09.14 | andersee | I've never written a net driver |
| 17:09.15 | T0mW | andersee: erik, did uclinux ever resolve the memory fragmentation problem? |
| 17:09.31 | prpplague | andersee: really? |
| 17:09.37 | andersee | most I've done is fix an alignment problems in a net driver |
| 17:09.44 | prpplague | andersee: i figured you'd have done one with all your contracts and stuff |
| 17:10.04 | andersee | T0mW: to an extent by using a better malloc for user space |
| 17:10.09 | T0mW | :-/ |
| 17:10.35 | T0mW | that's the only reason I cannot use uClinux. My stuff has to run for months and months without reboot |
| 17:10.39 | andersee | prpplague: nope. serial drivers and such. and of course plenty of block device work. but no net driver stuff... |
| 17:22.21 | prpplague | http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2006/view_abstract.php?content_key=247 |
| 17:22.28 | prpplague | i really want to attend that one |
| 17:27.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin / sjhill : we gonna have a elinux get together at one of the pubs? |
| 17:27.49 | prpplague | chouimat: you going? |
| 17:29.26 | sjhill | prpplague: heck yeah |
| 17:29.49 | CosmicPenguin | we should |
| 17:30.08 | CosmicPenguin | we'll post an impromptu BOF - #elinux beer tour BOF |
| 17:32.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, i'd like to keep it small, hehe, as i probably will spring for some of the brew |
| 17:33.10 | fishhead | prpplague did you get my message |
| 17:33.58 | prpplague | fishhead: yea |
| 17:34.23 | fishhead | please keep him in mind if you just happen to know of any semi companies that need someone :) |
| 17:34.28 | fishhead | thx |
| 17:35.03 | fishhead | he's good, I certainly couldn't do what he's doing :P |
| 17:36.20 | fishhead | but ASSHAT (asat) is moving to china and he's screwed |
| 17:38.01 | fishhead | oh God this new fcc bitch loves drm and plans to use he position to stronghold the industry into it |
| 17:40.45 | tsowell | you've got it all wrong. the industry strongholds YOU! |
| 17:43.28 | fishhead | I actually don't have a problem with drm as long as you can give up media content and opt-out, but when they start pushing for encrypted ram, keyboard etc and forcing you to use this crap even when you don't want to then I have a major problem with it |
| 17:43.36 | fishhead | espically as a computertechnician and this channel |
| 17:43.51 | fishhead | both of which could become extinct |
| 17:44.02 | fishhead | if everything becomes a black box |
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| 18:41.27 | *** mode/#elinux [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
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| 19:52.01 | CosmicPenguin | And I think I can speak for all of us when we say that none of us care |
| 19:52.57 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 19:53.36 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: re |
| 19:53.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i think i'm gonna bring some of our boards to OLS |
| 19:54.00 | CosmicPenguin | Cool |
| 19:54.03 | CosmicPenguin | I am too |
| 19:54.07 | CosmicPenguin | I promised sjhill I would bring him one |
| 19:54.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i've got a bunch that we won't be using any more, figure i can swap them around |
| 19:54.31 | CosmicPenguin | What fun |
| 19:55.06 | CosmicPenguin | Last year I flew in on Tuesday and left on Sunday, but this year I might end up going Sunday to Sunday |
| 19:55.08 | CosmicPenguin | we'll see |
| 19:55.21 | CosmicPenguin | I should come in a day early anyway if everyone is going to be there |
| 19:55.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea i'm probably gonna due tuesday to sunday |
| 19:55.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea i'm not sure i can, i got critters and stuff at home, hehe |
| 19:57.40 | prpplague | lordy i have a ton of work to do |
| 19:57.41 | file[laptop] | hrm... Ottawa |
| 19:57.49 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: there are some good BOFs |
| 19:57.57 | CosmicPenguin | We'll crash Tim Bird's and give him a hard time |
| 19:58.04 | prpplague | yea gotta run |
| 19:58.06 | prpplague | later |
| 19:58.08 | CosmicPenguin | later |
| 19:58.48 | file[laptop] | too bad OLS isn't even slightly VoIP related or Digium might send me |
| 20:04.27 | CosmicPenguin | Wouldn't they send you just for the knowledge |
| 20:04.30 | CosmicPenguin | ? |
| 20:05.28 | file | if only, if only |
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| 20:17.54 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey sorry about that |
| 20:17.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: quick exit |
| 20:18.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: thought i was gonna have to run an errand |
| 20:18.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: turns out i didn't |
| 20:18.20 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:29.15 | sjhill | omb |
| 20:29.19 | sjhill | there was a MIPS BOF and CELF |
| 20:29.31 | sjhill | s/and/at/ |
| 20:31.08 | CosmicPenguin | I didn't go |
| 20:31.41 | CosmicPenguin | Probably all Phillips guys hanging out at that |
| 20:32.14 | fishhead | http://news.com.com/Seagate+releases+perpendicular+storage+drives/2100-1015_3-6062207.html?tag=nefd.pop <---- w00t! |
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