| 01:08.04 | *** join/#elinux ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 01:08.04 | *** topic/#elinux is Embedded Linux || http://eLinux.org/ || cross compile, uClibc, busybox, handhelds, post-sale linux installs ;-), etc. || free embedded linux training at http://free-electrons.com/news/news.2004-09-28/en |
| 01:08.04 | *** mode/#elinux [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
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| 01:32.45 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (n=dieu@kde/developer/chouinard) |
| 02:00.17 | *** join/#elinux sjhill (n=sjhill@eth13.com-link.com) |
| 02:43.01 | Wingnut | can anyone recommend a company to go through to get ~70 2 layer, 1.5"x1" PCBs with ~20 through-holes, no SMT made? |
| 03:06.41 | T0mW | Wingnut: what kind of quality are you requiring and what cost? |
| 03:06.51 | *** join/#elinux ricmm (n=ricmm@200.85.75.11) |
| 03:07.14 | T0mW | Wingnut: e.g. Hobbyist or professional job? |
| 03:08.51 | Wingnut | hobbyist |
| 03:09.39 | Wingnut | I've got to build 63 of these: |
| 03:09.40 | Wingnut | http://www.utdlug.org/~mcrist/lpt_device/ |
| 03:09.44 | T0mW | http://www.pcbnet.com/ |
| 03:09.48 | Wingnut | and I don't want to do it by hand |
| 03:10.16 | T0mW | Their quality can be a little shakey, but they are cheap. The give you a % |
| 03:10.34 | T0mW | $500 credit after first order, so second batch could be free. |
| 03:11.00 | Wingnut | nice |
| 03:11.22 | T0mW | for top-notch quality, I highly recommend: http://www.4pcb.com/index.htm |
| 03:11.27 | Wingnut | have you ever used them before? |
| 03:11.32 | MonMotha | yeah, Advanced Circuits has EXCELLENT quality |
| 03:11.35 | T0mW | I've used both |
| 03:11.50 | T0mW | two orders with pcbnet.com |
| 03:12.17 | *** join/#elinux sjhill (n=sjhill@eth13.com-link.com) |
| 03:12.19 | MonMotha | some of the finest boards I've ever had made. I've not used pcbnet. pcbexpress.com is reasonably priced (higher than pcbnet.com), and quality tends to be fairly good, not up to advanced circuits, though |
| 03:12.36 | MonMotha | pcbexpress is also very, very quick |
| 03:12.52 | T0mW | their cutouts of the board is +/- 20..30mils and soldermask + plating of the second order was lower than expected quality for a few of the boards. But acceptable for hobby use |
| 03:13.18 | Wingnut | k |
| 03:13.19 | Wingnut | yt |
| 03:13.19 | Wingnut | ty |
| 03:13.40 | MonMotha | if you're a student, 4pcb will give you deals |
| 03:13.54 | MonMotha | $33 + ship for 70 sq inches, all you can panelize it |
| 03:14.07 | MonMotha | you cut apart |
| 03:14.14 | T0mW | does pcbexpress have online quoting? Or do you have to submit the gerbers first? |
| 03:14.15 | Wingnut | cut apart or punch out? |
| 03:14.41 | MonMotha | T0mW: pricing is purely by board size, so you can get quotes |
| 03:14.54 | MonMotha | Wingnut: they don't even score them for you. You'd have to cut them yourself |
| 03:14.59 | MonMotha | they make it as a giant panel |
| 03:15.07 | MonMotha | pcbexpress will cut |
| 03:15.23 | T0mW | everybody will give you quotes, I just look at the sites that tell me the bottom line price from an online calculator |
| 03:15.26 | MonMotha | T0mW: http://www.pcbexpress.com/products/prices.php#1pricing |
| 03:15.44 | MonMotha | that's the price you pay, no matter whaty ou cram into said area |
| 03:15.48 | T0mW | oh, good |
| 03:16.06 | MonMotha | well, provided you meet minimum clearances, etc. for their prototype processes |
| 03:16.25 | T0mW | ugh, their prices are not that great |
| 03:16.43 | T0mW | 4pcb will do a nice job for the $33 special |
| 03:16.46 | MonMotha | T0mW: no they aren't. Their big thing is speed |
| 03:17.11 | MonMotha | yeah, 4pcb's $33 special is really nice, though if you aren't a student you have to buy 3 and aren't supposed to panelize |
| 03:17.31 | MonMotha | I've been told that if you let them know you're a hobbyist, they'll let you panelize, but you still have to buy 3 |
| 03:18.18 | MonMotha | oh, there's also batchpcb (aka sparkfun), though not nearly as good of a deal as it once was |
| 03:18.33 | T0mW | lets me out, I've been doing business with 4pcb for many years |
| 03:18.34 | MonMotha | $5/sq in + $10 setup fee, IIRC |
| 03:18.34 | Wingnut | but they had a neat site the last time I looked |
| 03:19.06 | MonMotha | T0mW: yeah, they seem fairly into establishing relationships with their customers. I can imagine that they'd give repeat customers deals like that |
| 03:19.51 | MonMotha | sparkfun used to be an incredible deal at $5/sq in, no setup, no minimum |
| 03:20.02 | MonMotha | actually, weren't they $2.50/sq in at one point? |
| 03:20.29 | T0mW | Wingnut: don't you like surface mount? |
| 03:21.10 | MonMotha | SURFACE MOUNT IS THE DEVIL! OLD-SCHOOL FOREVER! (actually, I quite like surface mount...) |
| 03:21.12 | Wingnut | didn't want to have to deal with it |
| 03:21.33 | Wingnut | it's 8 diodes, 1 resistor and a 7 segment LED |
| 03:21.33 | MonMotha | I find the larger stuff (50mil space) easier to deal with than most through-hole parts... |
| 03:21.42 | T0mW | Wingnut: see this yet? http://www.openhardware.net/?title=ZipIt%20Addon%20Board%20mod&dir=zipit&file=zipitBoard.html |
| 03:22.11 | T0mW | that is a pcnet.com board |
| 03:22.48 | Wingnut | nice |
| 03:23.03 | T0mW | lotta work with the vernier caliper to get it "right" |
| 03:23.25 | Wingnut | hehe |
| 03:24.07 | T0mW | top side is flow soldered in a toaster oven using a stencil I cut out with Xacto knife, the bottom was done by hand :-/ |
| 03:24.14 | T0mW | PITA for that one chip |
| 03:24.45 | Wingnut | did you use solid solder and wick off the excess or liquid solder? |
| 03:25.01 | T0mW | I finally cut a old stencil apart to get that one part, then used a razor blade to apply the paste. |
| 03:25.28 | MonMotha | T0mW: does the zipit display have a backlight that isn't hooked up or something? or did you add a backlight in? |
| 03:25.29 | T0mW | worked pretty good |
| 03:25.50 | T0mW | I had to add it, go out and find the material, cut it to size, blah-blah |
| 03:26.20 | T0mW | then fsck with the part values until it was nice an bright at 3.4volts |
| 03:26.59 | MonMotha | ah |
| 03:27.01 | T0mW | nice backlight for a lousy, cheap-o LCD |
| 03:27.15 | MonMotha | I've been meaning to go back and hack some of the devices I've accumulated |
| 03:27.17 | T0mW | the LCD is not top-quality |
| 03:27.17 | MonMotha | maybe this summer |
| 03:27.25 | T0mW | MonMotha: heh |
| 03:27.52 | T0mW | MonMotha: yeah, btdt, most of them hit the trash after I've seen that "yeah, I *could* do this, but" |
| 03:28.03 | Wingnut | I end up piling on more projects and pushing out the existing ones |
| 03:28.19 | T0mW | good way to learn though |
| 03:29.25 | MonMotha | T0mW: well, I've got a DCT5000 that needs to have Linux running on it |
| 03:29.32 | MonMotha | and my freaking TuxScreen should do something useful |
| 03:29.40 | T0mW | lol, I have another one and no time to play with it |
| 03:30.18 | Wingnut | at some point I need to reflash my tuxscreen, it doesn't boot :( |
| 03:30.31 | MonMotha | hehe, I definately had to JTAG the life back into mine at one point |
| 03:30.31 | T0mW | The TuxScreen was a good project for me. It not only helped me build confidence in the ARM, but allowed me to design electronics to interface to an ARM processor. |
| 03:30.47 | MonMotha | T0mW: yeah, my plan is to do that with the Webpals I have |
| 03:30.54 | MonMotha | I've got some nifty ideas for those |
| 03:31.06 | MonMotha | one is to become an MP3 player |
| 03:31.10 | T0mW | nod, I've got 20 of those things here. It only cost me shipping |
| 03:31.26 | MonMotha | I think I paid $17 for 4 of them including shipping |
| 03:31.34 | T0mW | yeah |
| 03:31.44 | MonMotha | friend has one, I may ask for it back |
| 03:31.49 | MonMotha | I don't think he's using it anymore |
| 03:32.02 | MonMotha | is there a good ARM bootloader at this point? |
| 03:32.10 | T0mW | I think mine way $127 for the 20 units. That was, what, $6 each |
| 03:32.25 | MonMotha | BLOB got ugly, the HH.org loader is still somewhat ipaq specific from what I've seen |
| 03:33.22 | T0mW | I didn't bother with a loader, I have a Flash / Eprom programmer and built an adapter to plug the Flash SIMM directly into it. |
| 03:34.30 | T0mW | But, this stuff has been put on the back burner until I get some paying stuff done. |
| 03:34.47 | T0mW | I gotta eat, you know? |
| 03:34.55 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 03:35.20 | Wingnut | tired of top ramen already? |
| 03:35.20 | MonMotha | I didn't know the ARM kernel could self-boot like the x86 ones could |
| 03:35.57 | T0mW | for me its' beans, when i start cranking those cans open I'm tapped out. |
| 03:36.47 | T0mW | MonMotha: yeah, just copy the image to RAM and jump to the kernel crt0.S, or equivilent. Then pivot_root |
| 03:37.35 | T0mW | kernel will discover the hardware and then you can pivot. The downside is that you're stuck with that one kernel. |
| 03:37.35 | MonMotha | ok, so you do still need something of a loader, albeit extremely simple |
| 03:37.49 | MonMotha | well, the kernel can talk to flash, right? |
| 03:37.59 | MonMotha | or can the kernel not talk to the Webpal flash? |
| 03:38.09 | T0mW | yeah, not much really, just copy kernel from Flash, put it into RAM and jump to it. |
| 03:38.25 | T0mW | you write the copy routine |
| 03:38.39 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 03:38.50 | T0mW | Actually, you can put the copy operation into the crt0.S (or head.S?) |
| 03:39.07 | T0mW | init the DRAM controller, then move the kernel |
| 03:39.16 | MonMotha | can the kernel write to the flash in the webpal? That would allow you to install a new kernel without chucking it in a programmer. Of course you'd better get it right the first time! |
| 03:39.48 | MonMotha | oh, and do you know much about the remote debugger that ships on the webpal? |
| 03:39.50 | T0mW | I dunno, that was something everyone seemed hyped up about on the TuxScreen, but I never thought it usefull |
| 03:40.01 | T0mW | nothing |
| 03:40.03 | MonMotha | ok |
| 03:40.18 | MonMotha | I remember I tried to dump and entire kernel into RAM using the debugger, but it wouldn't take it |
| 03:40.21 | MonMotha | I presume it was too big |
| 03:40.27 | MonMotha | s/and/an/ |
| 03:40.36 | T0mW | one of the reasons the webpals are lanquishing, I'd rather use JTAG to do debug with, not Angel or something like that. |
| 03:40.44 | MonMotha | agreed |
| 03:41.00 | MonMotha | heck, that debugger runs in software, so if you screw up, it's really a brick |
| 03:41.09 | T0mW | heh |
| 03:41.18 | MonMotha | unless you can program the flash via another means (hot swap with another unit or a programmer) |
| 03:42.01 | T0mW | Thats why I'm doing nothing with ZipIt until I can put together an RS232 loader. The WiFi update sounds too shakey. |
| 03:42.51 | MonMotha | T0mW: how much RAM does ZipIt have? |
| 03:42.56 | T0mW | 16meg |
| 03:43.06 | T0mW | 2meg of flash |
| 03:43.27 | T0mW | 16meg is pretty beefy |
| 03:44.05 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 03:44.16 | MonMotha | is there a way to dump stuff into RAM using the stock firmware? |
| 03:44.22 | MonMotha | you could just develop on it entirely out of RAM |
| 03:44.55 | T0mW | naw, not that I know of. |
| 03:45.24 | T0mW | I'd like to get it running up to a pivot_root and pivot to the SD card. |
| 03:45.41 | MonMotha | ah |
| 03:45.49 | MonMotha | yeah, with 2MB of flash that's probably best |
| 03:45.59 | MonMotha | I have my tux set up to pivot onto a CF in the PCMCIA slot |
| 03:46.42 | T0mW | I still have that Tux that pivots to a 10gig notebook drive |
| 03:46.50 | MonMotha | that works |
| 03:46.55 | T0mW | heh |
| 03:47.01 | pigeon | ricmm: oh hey |
| 03:47.07 | MonMotha | I've found that I don't normally need more than 64MB (which is what I've got in it), especially since it has network access |
| 03:47.12 | T0mW | yeah, just for giggle I had the thing compile the kernel source. |
| 03:47.21 | MonMotha | how long did that take? |
| 03:47.31 | T0mW | I stopped it after two hours |
| 03:47.31 | MonMotha | I remember building things on the hh.org skiffs...that was slow |
| 03:47.51 | MonMotha | first time I compiled the linux kernel was on my 486 back in 98. That took a long time |
| 03:47.58 | MonMotha | I let it run overnight |
| 03:48.18 | T0mW | oh yeah, I recall those days, an hour or more to compile the full kernel |
| 03:49.07 | MonMotha | yup |
| 03:49.12 | T0mW | I moved pretty quickly to a Pentium-1 though, so I didn't do too much with the 486 |
| 03:49.28 | MonMotha | I actually had a PII at the time, but I was just getting into linux so it was on the old machine |
| 03:49.35 | MonMotha | Slackware 3.6 |
| 03:49.41 | T0mW | nod |
| 03:49.43 | MonMotha | maybe older... |
| 03:49.47 | MonMotha | I don't remember, it was 3.x |
| 03:49.48 | T0mW | 2.2.7 |
| 03:49.57 | T0mW | IIRC |
| 03:50.03 | MonMotha | the kernel was 2.0.24 out of the box I think |
| 03:50.31 | T0mW | I still kept my orignal 6 cd pack of slackware |
| 03:50.59 | T0mW | it was slack, redhat 4 and something else on it, plus sources |
| 03:51.05 | MonMotha | I downloaded it...on my 26.4kbps dialup...and installed it off floppies... |
| 03:51.09 | T0mW | LOL |
| 03:51.13 | T0mW | brutal |
| 03:51.15 | MonMotha | I didn't get my CD burner until about 6 months later |
| 03:51.26 | MonMotha | yeah, especially because you couldn't tell the installer to cleanly try again if a disk was bad |
| 03:51.34 | MonMotha | getting all of A and N installed from old floppies was hard |
| 03:51.35 | T0mW | now THAT took at least an overnight |
| 03:51.44 | MonMotha | it took several hours, I know that |
| 03:51.50 | T0mW | heh |
| 03:52.03 | T0mW | that was late '96 for me |
| 03:52.19 | T0mW | heh |
| 03:52.52 | Wingnut | the hard part was getting enough _working_ floppies in the same place at the same time |
| 03:53.00 | T0mW | I fixed a guys new install today, the nsswitch was broken. I remember finding that beasty-file when I was tinkering with Solaris-X86 |
| 03:53.23 | T0mW | hosts = nisfiles wins |
| 03:53.26 | T0mW | no dns |
| 03:53.49 | T0mW | couldn't figure out why nslookup worked and ping didn't |
| 03:54.01 | MonMotha | hehe] |
| 03:54.15 | T0mW | resolv.conf was good, the firewall was off... |
| 03:54.22 | MonMotha | Wingnut: IIRC, my solution was to reuse known working floppies |
| 03:54.32 | T0mW | could ping an IP but not a name |
| 03:54.33 | MonMotha | of course, occasionally one would become non-working |
| 03:54.43 | MonMotha | T0mW: ah yes, I remember messing with that |
| 03:54.59 | T0mW | good to know what is in /etc |
| 03:55.38 | T0mW | I only ran slackware for about 2+ years, then went to RedHat so I could play with Oracle |
| 03:55.54 | T0mW | had delusions of learning a "real" database |
| 03:56.09 | MonMotha | I could never bring myself to run RedHat |
| 03:56.23 | MonMotha | I went from Slackware after about 3 years to Debian |
| 03:56.53 | MonMotha | I ran Gentoo for about 8 months in the middle of that, I guess |
| 03:56.59 | T0mW | I did for a couple of years then had a bitch of a time getting RH to recognize hardware on a client's machine. I tried Mandrake, it found all the hardware and I've never gone back to RH |
| 03:57.03 | MonMotha | it was brand new, still pretty bleh |
| 03:57.39 | T0mW | I also liked the fact that Mandrake installed Midnight Commander as default |
| 03:57.50 | MonMotha | heh |
| 03:57.54 | MonMotha | I never used that |
| 03:57.55 | T0mW | I still cannot get away from XTree |
| 03:58.14 | T0mW | XTree was a similar util on msdos |
| 03:58.21 | MonMotha | I remember it |
| 03:58.26 | T0mW | nod |
| 03:58.43 | T0mW | I never did like using the mouse a lot |
| 03:58.54 | MonMotha | tab completion makes handling files using regular commands a bit easier on *nix |
| 03:59.00 | T0mW | so, the Windows Explorer was the pits for me to use |
| 03:59.08 | T0mW | oh man! yessir! |
| 03:59.33 | MonMotha | I noticed microsoft "innovated" that for XP :) |
| 03:59.38 | T0mW | First time I acqainted a buddy with linux, he couldn't figure out how I could type so fast. heehee |
| 04:00.00 | T0mW | I just kept hitting that tab key |
| 04:00.04 | MonMotha | yup |
| 04:00.11 | T0mW | set -o vi |
| 04:00.18 | MonMotha | I'll even hit it to bring up the partial completion list in bash all the time |
| 04:00.25 | MonMotha | people wonder what all the crap scrolling down my screen is |
| 04:00.39 | T0mW | magic, leave me alone, I'm working hard |
| 04:00.43 | T0mW | heh |
| 04:01.27 | T0mW | best part of linux I like is the utils: gcc, lazarus, perl, etc. |
| 04:01.33 | MonMotha | yup |
| 04:01.34 | MonMotha | all free |
| 04:01.45 | T0mW | lazarus rocks |
| 04:02.09 | MonMotha | I've not used that |
| 04:02.10 | MonMotha | what is it? |
| 04:02.23 | T0mW | all the problems I had with thread under Delphi + Kylix went away when I ported the code to lazarus |
| 04:02.35 | T0mW | s/thread/threading/ |
| 04:03.13 | T0mW | MonMotha: it is Object Pascal |
| 04:03.42 | MonMotha | oh |
| 04:03.42 | T0mW | I like Object Pascal much better than C++, I HATE HATE C++ |
| 04:03.53 | MonMotha | I don't know C++ |
| 04:03.57 | MonMotha | only OO lang I know is Java |
| 04:04.03 | T0mW | an abortion as such the world has never seen before! |
| 04:04.13 | MonMotha | which? Java or C++? |
| 04:04.16 | T0mW | C++ |
| 04:04.17 | MonMotha | (or both...) |
| 04:04.22 | T0mW | well both really,heh |
| 04:04.31 | T0mW | Java is a bit saner |
| 04:04.36 | MonMotha | do you know much about the Windows driver API? |
| 04:04.51 | T0mW | at least the java people are realistic about what java can really do. |
| 04:04.58 | MonMotha | true |
| 04:05.09 | T0mW | no, have stayed away from windows for almost 7 years now |
| 04:05.17 | MonMotha | ok |
| 04:05.19 | T0mW | linux poisened me |
| 04:05.25 | MonMotha | I'm going to have to write some Windows USB drivers here soon |
| 04:05.38 | MonMotha | I presume it has some equiv of libusb, though probably not as sane |
| 04:05.44 | T0mW | ROTFL |
| 04:05.55 | T0mW | MonMotha: my condolances |
| 04:06.15 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 04:06.26 | MonMotha | The Linux USB stuff is actually pretty decent |
| 04:06.41 | MonMotha | I know windows has a userspace driver model, but I don't know much about it |
| 04:06.44 | T0mW | MonMotha: why don't you work on something really fsked up and do some X server customization? |
| 04:06.50 | MonMotha | hehe |
| 04:06.53 | MonMotha | I stay away from X |
| 04:07.01 | T0mW | Now that is a mess |
| 04:07.05 | MonMotha | yes |
| 04:08.31 | T0mW | Ok, I've got a doctors appoint at 10:30AM, they are going to make me run a treadmill and see if I live |
| 04:08.37 | T0mW | cul |
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| 09:42.27 | HJBIII | hi all |
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| 15:47.36 | ignatoff | could anyone help with an ixdp425-setup.c question ? |
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| 18:00.56 | sjhill | is it safe to say that no architecture but x86 used acpid? |
| 18:01.02 | sjhill | i think it is |
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