| 00:00.37 | Thanatermesis | that sounds hard to configure? |
| 00:01.19 | Thanatermesis | no mail received? sure? |
| 00:01.21 | Thanatermesis | sent again |
| 00:05.30 | yebyen | oh those were caught by my "enlightenment" label |
| 00:05.30 | yebyen | that's where i expect elive mail to comefrom |
| 00:05.30 | yebyen | the others weren't |
| 00:07.05 | Thanatermesis | ok so, there's no spam mark then, right? |
| 00:07.11 | Thanatermesis | there's a very intersting thing here... |
| 00:07.32 | Thanatermesis | one day i started to have the emails from Elive to the "non-main" folder of gmail, so i started to inspect why... |
| 00:07.39 | keyra | microsoft says that a folder is something between the desktop and the trash, just in face of the books and pencils, near of the chair... why ppl dont say just directory ? |
| 00:07.51 | Thanatermesis | and it was only by removing the "list-unsubscribe" header that they goes back to the "main" folder |
| 00:08.41 | Thanatermesis | so i removed it a few times, but because of the policies i put it back (i dont wanted to be considered as spam by sending lists and not telling it clearly) |
| 00:08.41 | Thanatermesis | anyhow |
| 00:08.41 | Thanatermesis | i just removed it now again, and now gmail doesn't marks it as spam |
| 00:08.41 | Thanatermesis | (so wtf?) |
| 00:09.14 | Thanatermesis | by other side the tests (bayes) stills marks it as a big spam ranking? http://isnotspam.com/newlatestreport.php?email=ins-alchjkl6%40isnotspam.com |
| 00:11.18 | yebyen | hmm |
| 00:11.40 | yebyen | well if you want i can try running this mail through spamassassin |
| 00:12.08 | Thanatermesis | ok, that sounds good :) |
| 00:12.11 | keyra | :) |
| 00:13.56 | yebyen | running sa-compile (may take a long time) |
| 00:15.05 | yebyen | X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mootop |
| 00:15.05 | yebyen | X-Spam-Level: |
| 00:15.05 | yebyen | X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, |
| 00:15.05 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:15.05 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:19.57 | *** join/#elive apt (~apt@rikers.org) |
| 00:19.57 | *** topic/#elive is Web: http://www.elivecd.org | BTS: http://bugs.elivecd.org - please report problems so we can solve them | Forum: http://forum.elivecd.org | Elive 3.0 is on the way and going to be entirely cost-free! |
| 00:20.00 | Thanatermesis | keyra, spank apt |
| 00:20.02 | keyra | pants OFF! |
| 00:21.00 | yebyen | i donno google says list-unsubscribe header will improve your reputation |
| 00:21.38 | Thanatermesis | heh |
| 00:21.54 | yebyen | what do you put in the header? |
| 00:21.57 | Thanatermesis | yeah its very strange, in the past too, by removing it the ranking goes better |
| 00:22.13 | Thanatermesis | ok let me show that |
| 00:22.23 | yebyen | maybe its wrongly implemented |
| 00:23.47 | Thanatermesis | maybe! |
| 00:23.47 | Thanatermesis | and i think so |
| 00:23.55 | Thanatermesis | because there's no the feature to "click to unsubscribe" directly from gmail |
| 00:24.00 | Thanatermesis | if you see what i mean |
| 00:24.06 | Thanatermesis | (not from the template but from the gmail interface) |
| 00:24.09 | Thanatermesis | --- |
| 00:24.09 | Thanatermesis | Message-ID: <596960453ea32-00000000000000000000000000000000-966-fe4677f53d73e7a3a12c595ad2578d8d@www.elivecd.org> |
| 00:24.09 | Thanatermesis | X-Mailer: Mailster 2.2.7 (5.2.22) |
| 00:24.09 | Thanatermesis | X-Mailster-Campaign: 966 |
| 00:24.10 | Thanatermesis | X-Mailster-ID: fe4677f53d73e7a3a12c595ad2578d8d |
| 00:24.12 | Thanatermesis | List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.elivecd.org/newsletters/unsubscribe> |
| 00:24.15 | Thanatermesis | X-Message-ID: <596960453ea32-00000000000000000000000000000000-966-fe4677f53d73e7a3a12c595ad2578d8d@www.elivecd.org> |
| 00:24.35 | Thanatermesis | MIME-Version: 1.0 |
| 00:24.35 | Thanatermesis | likethis |
| 00:25.04 | yebyen | yup |
| 00:25.04 | yebyen | hows that supposed to work |
| 00:25.33 | yebyen | don't you need to have the recipient's address encoded in there somehow? |
| 00:25.33 | yebyen | preferably in plaintext so the spam filter can see it :D |
| 00:26.00 | yebyen | or does the standard say something about posting the email address to unsubscribe |
| 00:26.03 | yebyen | doesn't look like it here |
| 00:26.14 | yebyen | http://www.list-unsubscribe.com/ |
| 00:27.30 | yebyen | https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en |
| 00:27.34 | yebyen | they don't come out and say it here |
| 00:27.42 | yebyen | but they do tell you what the POST content will look like |
| 00:27.56 | yebyen | which means the opaquepart in |
| 00:27.56 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:28.07 | yebyen | had better be unique enough to identify the sender |
| 00:28.15 | Thanatermesis | List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.elivecd.org/newsletters/unsubscribe> |
| 00:28.35 | yebyen | the sender of the POST request to unsubscribe, i mean |
| 00:29.01 | yebyen | and |
| 00:29.03 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:29.04 | Thanatermesis | one-click unsubscribe? mmh... looks like |
| 00:29.36 | Thanatermesis | let me report this to the author of the plugin... |
| 00:29.47 | yebyen | do you get what i'm saying though |
| 00:30.02 | yebyen | if there's no way for the webserver to know who sends this POST |
| 00:30.14 | yebyen | how is unsubscribe functionally supposed to actually remove anyone from any list |
| 00:30.46 | yebyen | i bet that gmail is checking the "opaquepart" for uniqueness, and if you send hundreds of them and they're all the same |
| 00:31.00 | yebyen | they assume that you have implemented the standard improperly and spam-weight your emails until you fix it |
| 00:31.13 | yebyen | it actually makes sense that putting that header on your emails would get them spamholed |
| 00:31.17 | yebyen | because there's no way that link works |
| 00:31.47 | yebyen | it's gotta be newsletters/unsubscribe?email=person@domain.i.sent.this.mail.to.com |
| 00:31.52 | Thanatermesis | <yebyen> List-Unsubscribe: <https://example.com/unsubscribe/opaquepart> |
| 00:32.03 | Thanatermesis | so what is opaquepart here? me? or the receiver email? |
| 00:32.37 | yebyen | the receiver email would do it |
| 00:32.37 | yebyen | the format doesn't matter so much as it has to actually work |
| 00:32.37 | yebyen | and it can only actually work if there's some nonce in the opaque part |
| 00:32.45 | yebyen | or you'd have no way to tell any one POST apart from the others |
| 00:32.53 | yebyen | like bitcoin, LOL |
| 00:33.38 | yebyen | it can't be a URL that they're expected to go visit and fill out some form |
| 00:33.50 | yebyen | it has to be able to handle the request in "one click" |
| 00:35.00 | yebyen | The URI SHOULD include an opaque identifier or another hard-to-forge |
| 00:35.00 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.00 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.00 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.00 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.02 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.05 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.07 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.10 | yebyen | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.12 | yebyen | https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 |
| 00:35.49 | yebyen | so it's better if it isn't the recipient's email address |
| 00:36.06 | Thanatermesis | ok, let me include this info in the report... |
| 00:36.20 | Thanatermesis | so let's see if the author improves the plugin |
| 00:36.24 | Thanatermesis | will know that tomorrow :) |
| 00:36.24 | yebyen | this google link is great |
| 00:36.26 | keyra | :) |
| 00:36.31 | yebyen | with lots of nice links |
| 00:36.47 | Thanatermesis | until that i will simply remove that header line for announce 2.9.4 |
| 00:36.56 | yebyen | yeah, it's better than including it but it doesn't work |
| 00:37.20 | yebyen | from reading this RFC, I would not be shocked at all if Google has built gmail to look for things like that |
| 00:37.37 | yebyen | does your mailing list come right out of wordpress? |
| 00:37.44 | keyra | we don't use mailing list, instead, try to use the forums or the specific-forums (and all other features) from the collaborators website |
| 00:38.43 | Thanatermesis | yep, worpress |
| 00:38.43 | yebyen | how is it hosted? curious |
| 00:38.43 | Thanatermesis | which part? :) |
| 00:38.49 | yebyen | well, the wordpress and the smtp I guess |
| 00:39.22 | yebyen | the download mirrors infrastructure I know a little bit about your setup :D |
| 00:40.07 | Thanatermesis | ok so, hosting in a digitalocean provider (very good quality/price), the WP works under nginx and the email is installed in the server too thanks to ikevin, its an exim4 setup |
| 00:41.08 | yebyen | ah! |
| 00:41.26 | yebyen | i'm learning me some kubernetes |
| 00:42.01 | yebyen | i'd really like to know how to make cucumber tests in ruby parallel |
| 00:42.04 | keyra | my body is full of ruby! |
| 00:43.02 | yebyen | aww yeah |
| 00:43.02 | yebyen | https://github.com/grosser/parallel_tests |
| 00:43.10 | yebyen | definitely doing this this weekend |
| 00:43.18 | yebyen | i have a 40 minute cucumber test suite |
| 00:45.18 | Thanatermesis | is not writing tests a very time-consuming thing ? |
| 00:45.57 | yebyen | i like that they address Spinach as a first-class citizen of the Ruby TDD world :D |
| 00:45.57 | yebyen | so, I work in University IT |
| 00:46.12 | yebyen | I've spent 10 months building an app that only does one thing for HR |
| 00:46.33 | yebyen | it takes in requests to terminate people, lets HR process them, then sends them to Payroll and anyone else that needs to know this person is leaving |
| 00:46.41 | yebyen | and every edge case around that if you can think of it |
| 00:47.04 | yebyen | next phase might be 6 more months until we can use this tool to add jobs to employee record |
| 00:47.11 | yebyen | it has to handle every edge case |
| 00:47.21 | yebyen | and each new edge case has a very high probability of breaking something else |
| 00:47.30 | *** join/#elive keyra (~keyra@hostdo1.elivecd.org) |
| 00:47.31 | yebyen | so, short answer, yes it does take a very long time and it is worth it |
| 00:47.49 | yebyen | the more you do it, the better you get at it though |
| 00:47.57 | yebyen | like today, i used a trick I learned from elm developers |
| 00:48.02 | keyra | actual developers are Thanatermesis and PrinceAMD, maybe I forgot others? well, im only a bot :รพ |
| 00:48.20 | Thanatermesis | keyra, add yebyen as your own developer :) |
| 00:48.23 | keyra | :) |
| 00:48.36 | yebyen | ok so you have a small change to make to your HR Record interface |
| 00:48.45 | yebyen | you show a snapshot of the person's jobs at the time they were terminated |
| 00:48.56 | yebyen | at the time the request to separate them was submitted, actually |
| 00:48.57 | Thanatermesis | from elm developers? |
| 00:49.09 | yebyen | yeah an elm dev showed me this trick at RailsConf |
| 00:49.10 | yebyen | elm-lang |
| 00:49.19 | yebyen | it's a functional language with a really nice compiler |
| 00:49.44 | yebyen | and it makes javascript for the browser |
| 00:49.44 | yebyen | that's what it compiles to |
| 00:49.44 | Thanatermesis | oh, i thought that you meant elementary (efl) |
| 00:49.52 | yebyen | the compiler will do a very good job of telling you what you are missing or what you are doing wrong |
| 00:50.01 | yebyen | the idea is that you start from the most obvious part of the change |
| 00:50.03 | Thanatermesis | keyra, !help |
| 00:50.05 | keyra | I'm the good and the bad, the black and the white, the alpha and omega, I'm beyond time, there's no atomic substances on me and my form is pure energy, I'm a reflection of my echo resonating across the universe from the future, so what I'm, you know now? |
| 00:50.06 | yebyen | and then start filling in the blanks after that |
| 00:50.12 | keyra | I can: learn new things (with regex) for automatically reply, reminders for you in X time, memos to other users in the chat to tell when they connects back, etc.. details in: https://github.com/Elive/keyra-bot |
| 00:50.24 | yebyen | and only do what the compiler tells you that you need to do in order to make that obvious change actually functional |
| 00:50.44 | Thanatermesis | keyra, you become crazy! |
| 00:50.48 | yebyen | so in my case, i wanted to show the HR person the current jobs alongside the snapshot |
| 00:50.53 | yebyen | so they know what the current state is without going to another application to look it up |
| 00:51.07 | yebyen | (we are only a small part of HR's digital arsenal) |
| 00:51.36 | yebyen | and so payroll can know if the jobs have all been terminated |
| 00:51.36 | yebyen | so they know the person will stop getting paid when it's supposed to happen |
| 00:52.06 | yebyen | so i basically just wrote the view |
| 00:52.06 | yebyen | and included it as a partial in the page that shows the HR record |
| 00:52.06 | yebyen | and then added a test to rspec that says |
| 00:52.06 | yebyen | "make sure this partial gets rendered" |
| 00:52.12 | yebyen | that was the only test I needed |
| 00:52.26 | yebyen | if the partial doesn't render, then I can't call some method or other that I needed to render the partial |
| 00:52.33 | yebyen | then the test fails and it should, because the feature doesn't work |
| 00:52.39 | yebyen | and I get a pointer to the thing that's broken or missing |
| 00:53.00 | yebyen | now all that's left is to write the query to look up the jobs, and connect the two things somehow |
| 00:53.15 | yebyen | and if you're really serious about rigorous TDD |
| 00:53.39 | yebyen | look at a code coverage analysis tool when you're done and make sure you didn't create any edge cases not covered by that test |
| 00:53.48 | yebyen | write a couple more tests if you have to, so you are sure they got covered too |
| 00:54.06 | yebyen | in Elm, you can do all of that without actually writing any test |
| 00:54.36 | yebyen | just start by writing the view and the compiler tells you it won't work and what you need to make up next |
| 00:54.48 | yebyen | that's the beauty of statically typed compiled functional languages |
| 00:55.05 | yebyen | i finally understood monads when this guy gave his presentation |
| 00:55.52 | yebyen | https://confreaks.tv/videos/railsconf2017-developer-happiness-on-the-front-end-with-elm |
| 00:56.12 | yebyen | there was also a workshop too |
| 00:57.26 | Thanatermesis | developer happiness heh |
| 01:11.28 | yebyen | this is a good talk |
| 01:11.33 | yebyen | i'm watching it again now LOL |
| 01:18.13 | yebyen | yep and at about 20:25 he does the example that i'm talking about |
| 01:18.27 | yebyen | "oh just change the view so it shows the thing you want it to show, and let the compiler tell you what else it needs" |
| 01:31.44 | Thanatermesis | https://youtu.be/I1aoRQhqM1k |
| 01:39.58 | Thanatermesis | damn almost 4 AM ! |
| 01:56.46 | Thanatermesis | time for a nap! |
| 01:56.51 | Thanatermesis | see you in a while :) |
| 01:56.54 | keyra | :) |
| 03:09.03 | *** join/#elive Elive_user_en_18 (~Elive_use@180.251.255.131) |
| 03:09.08 | keyra | welcome to Elive, Elive_user_en_18! =) |
| 03:09.16 | keyra | how is your experience with Elive so far? any suggestion or issue to report us so we can make it better? for a direct assistance just talk to Thanatermesi or use http://bugs.elivecd.org , your feedbacks is important for improve Elive and your reports are for the correct work for everybody! |
| 10:43.04 | *** join/#elive Elive_user_nl_10 (~Elive_use@213.219.160.241.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 10:43.10 | keyra | welcome to Elive, Elive_user_nl_10! =) |
| 10:43.18 | keyra | how is your experience with Elive so far? any suggestion or issue to report us so we can make it better? for a direct assistance just talk to Thanatermesi or use http://bugs.elivecd.org , your feedbacks is important for improve Elive and your reports are for the correct work for everybody! |
| 10:48.26 | Elive_user_nl_10 | well it is rather nice, Onlu problem, You like for me to donate, and I would love to. I just do not have a creditcard or paypal account, and I am not interested in getting one, So how can I make a donotion |
| 10:48.28 | keyra | of course! :) |
| 10:48.31 | keyra | Thanatermesis ping, somebody needs you |
| 11:00.25 | *** part/#elive Elive_user_nl_10 (~Elive_use@213.219.160.241.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 11:01.08 | *** join/#elive Elive_user_nl_10 (~Elive_use@213.219.160.241) |
| 11:01.13 | keyra | welcome to Elive, Elive_user_nl_10! =) |
| 11:01.21 | keyra | how is your experience with Elive so far? any suggestion or issue to report us so we can make it better? for a direct assistance just talk to Thanatermesi or use http://bugs.elivecd.org , your feedbacks is important for improve Elive and your reports are for the correct work for everybody! |
| 22:11.26 | *** join/#elive grottem (~grottem@51-171-53-98-dynamic.agg7.etn.lmk-pgs.eircom.net) |
| 22:11.51 | grottem | evening all |
| 22:11.55 | grottem | Naglfar, |