| 00:00:14 | tvraman | sounds good --carpool called --taking off. |
| 00:01:06 | edwardam | later |
| 01:24:39 | sartor | I've successfully installed familiar on my ipaq...question is: how do I ssh into it? (ssh claims that "secure connection to ipaq refused") |
| 01:26:13 | jaxon | do you already have a ppp or ethernet connection to it? |
| 01:26:24 | sartor | yes... successful ppp |
| 01:26:27 | jacques | sartor: sshd is probably not running |
| 01:26:41 | jacques | sartor: the keys must currently be manually generated |
| 01:57:58 | jacques | tst |
| 09:04:07 | cworth | morning |
| 09:04:10 | a7r | Mr. Worth.. |
| 09:04:29 | cworth | a7r: ah, fancy seeing you here at this hour. |
| 09:04:43 | a7r | cworth: yeah.. I'm putting in a couple extra hours to finish off some office work. |
| 09:05:19 | cworth | a7r: heh. And I stayed up last night fiddling with my TuxScreen. |
| 09:05:39 | a7r | cworth: cool. |
| 09:05:42 | a7r | how's it look? |
| 09:06:39 | cworth | a7r: It's pretty slick. I'm keeping a journal on the TuxScreen wiki: http://tuxscreen.net/wiki/view.php?topic=CarlWorth |
| 09:08:17 | a7r | cworth: nice. |
| 09:08:34 | a7r | I'm going to buy one for my little brother to tinker with, I think. |
| 09:35:01 | jacques_ | cworth: so it was OK? not defective? |
| 09:35:19 | cworth | jacques_: my tuxscreen? |
| 09:35:44 | jacques_ | cworth: weren't you the one having the problem? |
| 09:36:45 | cworth | jacques_: yes. I still have the problem, (no dialtone, no buttons). I've got a colleague with a couple of phones -- I'll try swapping boards this weekend to isolate the problem. |
| 09:37:04 | jacques_ | ah :-( |
| 11:03:26 | cworth | re |
| 11:08:27 | cworth | morning mallum |
| 11:08:42 | mallum | hi cworth |
| 11:08:44 | cworth | mallum: did you find the xstroke code you were looking for? |
| 11:08:56 | mallum | cworth: yes |
| 11:09:03 | cworth | mallum: OK |
| 11:09:18 | mallum | cworth: need anevent.xmotion.x_root ! |
| 11:09:33 | mallum | didn't realise there was an x_root property |
| 11:09:49 | mallum | what are you working on at the mo cworth ? |
| 11:10:39 | cworth | mallum: what's x_root? that's not in xstroke is it? |
| 11:10:55 | mallum | cworth: oh maybe I got it from fscrib or something |
| 11:10:59 | cworth | mallum: finishing up ipkg 0.9, (multi-source, multi-target) |
| 11:11:06 | cworth | mallum: ah, OK. |
| 11:11:10 | mallum | cool |
| 11:11:23 | mallum | Im gonna try and package up 0.1 of this keyboard today |
| 11:11:43 | cworth | mallum: great. |
| 11:11:59 | cworth | mallum: were you trying to do window moving or something? |
| 11:12:06 | mallum | yeah |
| 11:12:16 | mallum | I had a problem where it worked on my desktop, but not the ipaq |
| 11:12:51 | cworth | mallum: the latest xstroke moves the window during the drag, (unlike fscrib/fstroke which don't move the window until the drag is complete) |
| 11:13:22 | mallum | ah, yes my moves with the drag |
| 11:13:32 | cworth | mallum: OK. |
| 11:13:43 | mallum | I was using XTranslateCoordinates |
| 11:14:04 | mallum | but with that x_root thing I dont need to, and it works on the ipaq |
| 11:15:12 | cworth | mallum: Oh, I see. x_root in the MotionEvent. (X coordinate relative to root window as opposed to x which is X coordinate relative to window). |
| 11:15:31 | mallum | yes |
| 11:15:49 | cworth | mallum: this is in xstroke, I'm still not thinking straight yet this morning. |
| 11:17:37 | mallum | Did you see your mentioned on Linux.com, via a7r interview ? |
| 11:18:18 | cworth | mallum: nope. |
| 11:19:50 | mallum | one sec........ trying to find it again |
| 11:20:10 | mallum | http://linux.com/develop/newsitem.phtml?sid=126&aid=12287 |
| 11:21:28 | cworth | mallum: ah, thanks. I guess I had seen that, (forgot that it was linux.com) |
| 13:20:06 | sartor | I'm interested in installing some arm .deb files on my ipaq... is there any simple conversion mechanism to .ipk? |
| 13:26:14 | boodle | sartor: I built dpkg-deb on my redhat laptop and just uncompress them manually and copy files into relevant locations on ipaq (and do ldconfig for libs :) |
| 13:28:10 | boodle | sartor: if you look at 'ipkg' itself (just a script still), it prolly wouldn't be too difficult to write a conversion script (using dpkg-deb) to go from .deb to .ipk |
| 13:30:58 | boodle | sartor: in fact a quick/cheesy answer is to have your conversion script dpkg-deb extract the .deb then just use ipkg-build to build up the .ipk... |
| 13:32:32 | nikos | If you look in the CVS for ipkg I believe there is already a conversion utility. |
| 13:32:50 | sartor | thanks :) |
| 13:33:41 | | i heard ipkg was a work-in-progress package manager for the iPAQ. See http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/iPKG |
| 13:33:41 | nikos | ibot: ipkg? |
| 13:33:49 | nikos | Be sure to see that URL also. |
| 13:40:56 | nikos | There is probably not a one step conversion, since you usually want to hand strip some of the documentation and anything else unnecessary. |
| 14:11:32 | nikos | Hey mpakula |
| 14:11:41 | mpakula | hi how are you |
| 14:11:55 | nikos | Well, and you? |
| 14:12:09 | mpakula | could be worse ;-) |
| 14:13:02 | mpakula | i tried to make usb network by typing modprobe usbeth but it say cant find the module can you give me specific path to it |
| 14:13:41 | nikos | mpakula: Have you looked at the USBnet wiki page? |
| 14:13:45 | | usbnet is at http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/How%20do%20I%20setup%20USB%20networking |
| 14:13:45 | nikos | ibot: usbnet? |
| 14:13:58 | nikos | mpakula: Look very carefully at those instructions. |
| 14:14:42 | mpakula | so familiar don't have alresdy drivers for usb installed ? |
| 14:15:20 | nikos | mpakula: Yes, you don't have to build the ipaq side. |
| 14:16:05 | nikos | modprobe usb-eth |
| 14:16:46 | mpakula | nikos: is there some simple web browser that i can install directly from net by pcmcia card i'm using in my ipaq |
| 14:18:09 | nikos | mpakula: dillo is in the unstable feed. |
| 14:19:30 | mpakula | nikos: unstable ? i'm not sure i want this concerning my little experience in this topic |
| 14:20:08 | nikos | mpakula: True. I'm simply pointing out what's available. |
| 14:22:16 | mpakula | nikos: oops sorry but i just got notice from admin that the server is going to be reset so that means i'm offline in 2 min. |
| 14:22:30 | mpakula | take care |
| 14:35:34 | cworth | re |
| 14:35:37 | nikos | Morning cworth |
| 14:36:25 | cworth | hi nikos |
| 14:45:28 | boodle | nikos: Since you requested the streaming in scream, I have a streaming question for you :) |
| 14:46:15 | boodle | nikos: Do you know if there's a website/method to retrieve the entire shoutcast server list (their website seems to limit max to 100) |
| 14:53:30 | nikos | boodle: Hmm. Let me think about it a moment. |
| 14:54:33 | boodle | nikos: Otherwise I'd have to write a sort of filtering frontend to match their website logic.. |
| 14:55:18 | nikos | boodle: It's a hack, but I think '?genre=' returns everything. |
| 14:55:33 | boodle | nikos: ok, thank you |
| 14:55:34 | nikos | I'm still getting the list and I've exceeded 3MB. |
| 14:55:41 | boodle | gasps |
| 14:55:43 | nikos | Still waiting for rendering... |
| 14:56:00 | nikos | I don't think you really want to retrieve a complete list. |
| 14:56:03 | boodle | hrm.. mebbe I better start cracking on that frontend |
| 14:56:06 | nikos | There are thousands of servers. |
| 14:56:19 | nikos | 2044 right now to be exact. |
| 14:56:33 | boodle | nikos: yea front-end it is.. icecast list is only around 100-200 I think.. |
| 14:57:26 | nikos | boodle: Hmm, doesn't look like that worked, I only got 1865 of 2044. |
| 14:57:51 | boodle | nikos: I just wish there was some kind of 'standard protocol' on the list itself.. if these websites change their formats in the slightest, my stuff will break |
| 14:58:31 | nikos | boodle: You have to understand. They don't want you to not use their website. |
| 14:58:43 | nikos | boodle: I really think this internal list thing is a bad idea. |
| 14:59:02 | boodle | nikos: yep.. but I am :) (through urllib.) |
| 14:59:03 | nikos | boodle: We need to do it just like you would on a desktop. Use a web browser to spawn a stream. |
| 14:59:25 | boodle | nikos: have you seen latest scream? (in cvs) |
| 14:59:29 | nikos | No. |
| 15:00:53 | boodle | nikos: you may want to have a look. Yes it's not browser based but it displays it well.. I'd be happy to drop it in favor of the browser hotlink method but I think we're a long way off having the browser available to support that. then that also becomse a heck of a large dependancy for streaming |
| 15:01:30 | nikos | boodle: Have you tried the shoutcast page in dillo? I really don't think it would take that much to provide a useable rendering. |
| 15:01:43 | nikos | I guess CGI support is necessary though. |
| 15:02:24 | boodle | nikos: I haven't.. I don't know much about dillo but yes, uncertain if it supports mime types etc for this |
| 15:03:07 | nikos | boodle: You are probably right. I don't disagree that we are missing the browser support currently. |
| 15:03:18 | boodle | nikos: well in all reality, it the table format on the server lists change, it is literally one line (albeit a long one ;) that would need to be updated in scream |
| 15:03:34 | boodle | s/it the table/if the table/ |
| 15:04:32 | boodle | nikos: I tinkered with qpe/konqueror yesterday.. it worked well but I hate the qpe dependancy.. + it's huge |
| 15:15:16 | tvraman | Morning Nikos! |
| 15:15:33 | nikos | Hello tvraman |
| 15:16:17 | tvraman | Nikos --could you point me at the python sources for some of the simple apps currently bundled with familiar/ipaq |
| 15:17:54 | nikos | tvraman: I can certainly try. I suspect that in most cases you can find the source right in the executable location. |
| 15:18:06 | nikos | tvraman: Some of them will also be in CVS. |
| 15:18:26 | nikos | tvraman: Can you navigate ViewCVS? |
| 15:18:39 | tvraman | have gotten burnt too many times the last two days by assuming the obvious about familiar. |
| 15:18:59 | nikos | tvraman: I understand. ;) |
| 15:19:03 | tvraman | can handle view CVS but got very confused yesterday starting with the link you sent me. |
| 15:19:22 | nikos | tvraman: Which one? The GNATS database? |
| 15:19:36 | tvraman | it's not obvious where something might be buried, and having to wade through the same set of repeated links on each page is a royal pain (one of the reasons I hate auto generated WWW pages). |
| 15:19:57 | nikos | tvraman: I see. Let me know and I will try to find you a more direct URL. |
| 15:20:52 | tvraman | I need to pick an app --any app for my summer student to go hack and play with --was thinking calendar/diary but something else might be fine too. Pick your pick? |
| 15:21:30 | tvraman | here is where I started and got lost --http://cvs.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ |
| 15:21:51 | nikos | tvraman: How about a framework that is being developed for PIM type applications? |
| 15:22:23 | tvraman | ps might be nice for both the speech user like me and the hand-helds user like the ipaq crew to be able to optionally nuke the repeated navigation links on request. The page would be smaller, download faster, draw quicker take up less screen real estate ....... |
| 15:22:38 | tvraman | framework for PIM would be a good fit. |
| 15:22:54 | nikos | tvraman: http://cvs.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/familiar/framework/ |
| 15:23:05 | nikos | tvraman: Would it be easier for you to simply check it out of CVS? |
| 15:24:37 | nikos | tvraman: I'm afraid that CVS repository is a bit dated. |
| 15:24:50 | nikos | tvraman: I will try to get the primary developer to commit his changes today. |
| 15:25:43 | tvraman | simple cvs checkout would be perfect --what is the cvs root to use? ERC> Incidentally, I did see the "framework" dir link --but by then I had gotten tired of burrowing through the earlier links, and "framework" implied to me that it contained the code for putting together the familiar packages --rather than the PIM framework. ERC> |
| 15:25:59 | tvraman | dated cvs repos? sounds like the end of civilization doesn't it?:-) |
| 15:27:13 | nikos | tvraman: cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.handhelds.org:/cvs |
| 15:27:19 | nikos | tvraman: Use the password anoncvs |
| 15:27:30 | nikos | tvraman: then checkout familiar/framework |
| 15:27:48 | tvraman | thanks --off to another buffer to go do the chckout. |
| 15:27:59 | nikos | OK |
| 15:31:43 | tvraman | cvs checkout worked fine --while at it I grabbed the whole familiar tree from cvs. Thanks! |
| 15:34:05 | nikos | tvraman: Great! |
| 15:34:12 | tvraman | nikos --here is a dumb question borne of laziness --will the mingle familiar/framework run on my RH 7.0 box? Ought to given that I have Python etc installed. |
| 15:34:27 | nikos | tvraman: With a Python 2 install, it should run. Yes. |
| 15:36:39 | tvraman | minor nit --framework/README talks about PyGTK --the rpm is called pygtk --for a minute I went looking for PyGTK and thought I didn't have it. |
| 15:41:15 | nikos | tvraman: I'm not sure what to say about that. The project calls itself PyGTK. |
| 15:43:30 | tvraman | ok. I just tried running it --problems: |
| 15:43:42 | tvraman | 1) it's looking for atexit line 4 of mingle: |
| 15:43:54 | tvraman | import atexit --where is this python module found? |
| 15:43:55 | nikos | tvraman: That means you aren't running Python2. |
| 15:44:19 | nikos | tvraman: Check the version of your python executable. |
| 15:44:21 | tvraman | correct --I'm running python 1.5.2 --and that was what the README said I needed --guess it's out of date. |
| 15:44:38 | nikos | tvraman: Ah, I didn't realize it said that. That is incorrect. |
| 15:44:43 | tvraman | also highlight.png etc are missing --the cvs repos is probably out of date as you said. |
| 15:45:10 | tvraman | I could upgrade my desktop to python 2 --will go see if I can find an rpm for it first. |
| 15:45:12 | nikos | tvraman: The developer (Morph aka gjg) Gareth Greenaway should be here in the next hour or so. |
| 15:45:25 | tvraman | will hang around here for him then. |
| 15:46:04 | tvraman | with regards to upgrading to python 2 --I need some python hacker advice here --my RH 7 box depends on python 1.5.2 heaivly for quite a few things --will all hell break lose if I install Python 2? |
| 15:46:59 | nikos | tvraman: I'm not sure. Properly written code should not break. It's also possible that RedHat may install Python 2 as 'python2'. |
| 15:49:59 | tvraman | statement of the day "properly written code should not break":-) |
| 15:50:30 | fad | properly written code does not break |
| 15:59:53 | vorteX | hi all! |
| 15:59:56 | nikos | Hey |
| 15:59:58 | nailerr | lo |
| 16:00:55 | vorteX | sorry phonecall... |
| 16:01:22 | vorteX | back |
| 16:02:17 | vorteX | nikos are ALL the debian arm packages supposed to work properly on familiar ? |
| 16:03:40 | nikos | vorteX: That's a very vague question. Obviously the requirements for each package would have to be met. |
| 16:04:16 | vorteX | yes it was pretty vague... :) but i have been having some problems :) |
| 16:04:42 | vorteX | i struggled finding a good /proc monitor for X... |
| 16:05:21 | vorteX | but i have had to use ipkg the hard way because of my restricted (zmodem) connection |
| 16:05:50 | vorteX | does our /proc conform to the debian standards though ? |
| 16:19:00 | tvraman | calling all familiar pythons:-) |
| 16:19:16 | tvraman | 10:18:39 bubbles src $ |
| 16:19:42 | tvraman | the above is after installing python2 --do I need to install pyGTK for python2 separate from pyGTK for python 1.5.2? |
| 16:22:31 | nikos | vorteX: /proc is a kernel issue. It has nothing to do with any distribution. |
| 16:23:03 | nikos | tvraman: I'm sorry, I don't know. That's a distribution specific issue. The short answer is 'probably'. |
| 16:27:34 | tvraman | thanks nikos --if someone around here knows more please let me know. |
| 16:56:57 | boodle | tvraman: You're looking for python help? |
| 16:58:49 | nelson | tvraman: how well does gtk work with a speech synthesizer? |
| 16:59:59 | nelson | tvraman: I have this fantasy about being able to do useful things with my iPAQ using solely voice, but it's just a fantasy at this point. |
| 17:05:50 | boodle | tvraman: I'd be happy to help on python/pygtk if you can help me with emacspeak :) I'm trying to get it working as a demo for a visually impaired association |
| 17:08:17 | cworth | later all |
| 17:08:24 | cworth | err... |
| 17:09:00 | nikos | later cworth |
| 17:09:13 | nikos | Or did you just leave that channel? |
| 17:09:34 | cworth | nikos: just that one. :) |
| 17:09:46 | nikos | ah |
| 17:13:11 | cworth | whoops. |
| 17:13:21 | cworth | deletes all shells from his iPAQ. :( |
| 17:13:40 | nikos | don't reboot! |
| 17:13:55 | nikos | Don't exit the session even. |
| 17:13:59 | cworth | nikos: heh... yeah, I'm covered. |
| 17:14:18 | cworth | nikos: untarring bash_2.03-6-fam1_arm.ipk now. :) |
| 17:14:54 | cworth | nikos: "ipkg install bash" just didn't work for some strange reason... ;-) |
| 17:14:59 | nikos | LOL |
| 17:15:15 | nikos | Nother reason to go compiled I guess. |
| 17:20:05 | vorteX_away | does anybody know if telnet and or telnetd/inetd is available ? |
| 17:20:13 | nikos | vorteX_away: Use ssh. |
| 17:20:25 | nikos | vorteX: The answer is no, not in Familiar. |
| 17:20:38 | vorteX | no for inetd as well? |
| 17:20:53 | nikos | vorteX: I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think so. |
| 17:21:22 | nikos | tvraman: You will want to talk to gjg at some point about Familiar Framework. |
| 17:21:23 | vorteX | thnx, for now i'll keep busy with the ssh package :) |
| 17:21:39 | cworth | vorteX: no one has done it yet. You could package them up if you really need them, (might want to start start with the Debian/Arm versions) |
| 17:22:26 | vorteX | cworth : thnx, i do think ssh might have some added benefits though |
| 17:23:12 | tvraman | boodle what emacspeak help do you need? |
| 17:24:19 | tvraman | nelson you asked about gtk and speech --doesn't exist yet. |
| 17:25:17 | gjg | tvraman: you were asking about the familiar framework? |
| 17:25:25 | boodle | tvraman: seriously I think it has all to do with midi support for soundcards.. when I start it, I try to do a ctrl-E ctrl-H and no demo/help comes up.. |
| 17:25:33 | tvraman | gjg --yes --want to talk for a few minutes? |
| 17:25:43 | gjg | tvraman: sure. |
| 17:25:59 | tvraman | okay --adding you to monitor list --give me a second. |
| 17:26:12 | gjg | alright, whats a monitor list? |
| 17:26:13 | cworth | nelson: although I know the "Gnome Accessibility" group is fairly active, (lots of recent traffic on sawfish anyway). |
| 17:26:15 | tvraman | okay --gjg --here goes. |
| 17:26:57 | tvraman | nelson --gnome accessibility group are chugging away --their demos need gtk2 --and are not ready unless you're hacking gnome/gtk |
| 17:27:40 | tvraman | I installed python 2. I kluged things by symlinking /usr/lib/site-packages to /usr/lib/python1.5.2/site-packages so python2 can find pygtk |
| 17:27:56 | tvraman | mingle launches --but I get a ton of warnings about c api mismatches. Finally, |
| 17:28:25 | tvraman | mingle doesn't respond when sawfish tries telling it to kill itself -- |
| 17:28:47 | tvraman | boodle --you're too vague in your question. |
| 17:29:08 | gjg | tvraman: Yeah, the pygtk is built for 1.5.2, libraries and modules and stuff. You'll need to grab the source and build it for python2.0 |
| 17:29:41 | tvraman | okay --hope they continue to co-exist. |
| 17:30:32 | nelson | tvraman: thanks. |
| 17:30:36 | tvraman | so dumb rpm question --if I did a build of pygtk from the src rpm is there a good way to tell the build to use python2 --other than temporarily redirecting /usr/bin/python to point at /usr/bin/python2 |
| 17:30:37 | gjg | tvraman: Yup...the pygtk stuff for 2.0 will sit in /usr/lib/python2.0/site-packages |
| 17:31:09 | gjg | tvraman: there is a configure option that you can set to tell it to use a certain version of python. |
| 17:31:11 | boodle | tvraman: I'm just trying to get started with emacspeak and try to do the C-h C-e command sequence per the startup hint to get an overview of emacspeak. When I do this, stuff flashes by at the bottom of the emacs screen, then it says 'set punctuation mode locally' then seems to freeze with nothing more being displayed. Since midi doesn't seem to work for my laptop's soundcard, I thought this may be the underlying problem |
| 17:33:01 | tvraman | ah yes, but rpm builds dont let you tweak config options --not the same as good old ./configure ... incidentally looked for a src rpm of pygtk http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=pygtk --and surprizingly enough they're not uptodate --soq: grab pygtk tarball? |
| 17:33:19 | tvraman | boodle --sorry-- still too vague. |
| 17:33:32 | gjg | tvraman: Yeah. grab the tarball |
| 17:33:47 | nikos | tvraman: ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:34:01 | boodle | tvraman: can emacspeak be configured to not use the audio midi cues? |
| 17:34:04 | gjg | Yup that one, thanks nikos |
| 17:34:08 | tvraman | thanks! you beat google nikos!<boodle> tvraman: can emacspeak be configured to not use the audio midi cues? |
| 17:34:50 | | nikos: excuse me? |
| 17:34:50 | nikos | ibot: google pygtk |
| 17:36:06 | | OK, gjg. |
| 17:36:06 | gjg | ibot: pygtk is <replay> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:14 | | pygtk is <replay> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:14 | gjg | ibot: pygtk |
| 17:36:21 | gjg | damnit :) |
| 17:36:25 | nikos | s/replay/reply/ |
| 17:36:28 | | ...but pygtk is <replay> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz... |
| 17:36:28 | gjg | ibot: no, pygtk is <reply> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:31 | gjg | yeah yeah yeah |
| 17:36:32 | | ...but pygtk is <replay> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz... |
| 17:36:32 | gjg | ibot: no, pygtk is <reply> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:36 | | OK, gjg. |
| 17:36:36 | gjg | ibot: no pygtk is <reply> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:40 | | pygtk is <replay> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:36:40 | gjg | ibot: pygtk |
| 17:36:46 | | nikos: I forgot pygtk |
| 17:36:46 | nikos | ibot: forget pygtk |
| 17:36:51 | | i already had it that way, gjg. |
| 17:36:51 | gjg | ibot: no pygtk is <reply> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:37:01 | gjg | um |
| 17:37:05 | | gjg: what? |
| 17:37:05 | gjg | ibot: pygtk |
| 17:37:06 | | grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/pygtk-0.6.6.tar.gz |
| 17:37:06 | nikos | ibot: no pygtk? |
| 17:37:13 | nikos | gjg: See? :) |
| 17:37:19 | | nikos: I forgot no pygtk |
| 17:37:19 | nikos | ibot: forget no pygtk |
| 17:37:40 | nikos | gjg: Drop the no. |
| 17:38:28 | | OK, nikos. |
| 17:38:28 | nikos | ibot: pygtk is <reply> grab it here ftp://ftp.daa.com.au/pub/james/python/ |
| 17:38:33 | tvraman | guys --./configure of pygtk tarball doesn't have an option to specify which python to use. |
| 17:41:16 | tvraman | bizarrely unexpected --after pointing /usr/bin/python at /usr/bin/python2 configure says: |
| 17:41:16 | nikos | tvraman: You can set an environ var PYTHON to the appropriate executable. |
| 17:41:37 | tvraman | checking local Python configuration... looks good checking for headers required to compile python extensions... not found |
| 17:41:51 | boodle | tvraman: the configure script greps the version of python by simply running python.. as long is running 'python' runs version 2, you're ok as is |
| 17:42:05 | nikos | tvraman: Probably don't have Python development stuff installed. |
| 17:42:52 | tvraman | thought I had those --will go looking --the price of rpm convenience:-) |
| 17:42:56 | boodle | tvraman: after you do a "./configure", check config.status for the value of PYTHON_INCLUES which hopefully points to your python2.0 library area, them its a non-issue |
| 17:43:11 | boodle | s/PYTHON_INCLUES/PYTHON_INCLUDES/ |
| 17:43:59 | tvraman | just checked --the python2 rpm I grabbed (found through rpmfind) didn't install very much --what a pain! |
| 17:46:19 | tvraman | now grabbing ftp://ftp.rpmfind.net/linux/redhat/7.1/en/powertools/i386/RedHat/RPMS//python2-devel-2.0-3.i386.rpm |
| 17:47:01 | gjg | sorry back, was talking to some people here. |
| 17:47:46 | tvraman | no problems --as you can see I'm still juggling bits to build pygtk for python2 --grabbing the python2-devel rpm as I type. |
| 17:47:55 | gjg | cool. |
| 17:49:27 | tvraman | okay --configure did its bit --now make is chugging away. |
| 17:50:45 | gjg | cool |
| 17:51:07 | tvraman | Now launched with one warning --give me a minute while I grab it and paste it in here. |
| 17:53:08 | tvraman | WARNING: Python C API version mismatch for module _gladegnome: This Python has API version 1009, module _gladegnome has version 1007. |
| 17:56:40 | tvraman | gjg --did you see the warnings I pasted? |
| 17:56:57 | nikos | tvraman: Do you still have that site-packages redirect? |
| 17:57:08 | tvraman | good catch nikos! |
| 17:59:57 | gjg | Oh yeah...dont install the stuff there :) |
| 18:00:03 | tvraman | cute --it worked! |
| 18:00:12 | gjg | what worked? |
| 18:00:19 | tvraman | nikos is a wiz --in addition to being faster than gogle:-) |
| 18:00:33 | gjg | tosses nikos a botsnack |
| 18:00:44 | tvraman | oops sorry --mingle worked. I nuked the site-packages symlink --and mingle launched wihtout warnings. |
| 18:00:47 | nikos | :) |
| 18:00:56 | gjg | tvraman: awesome. :) |
| 18:01:05 | tvraman | I launched it with a little gtkspeak.so loaded, and it even spoke the button names and quit the app when I hit quit. |
| 18:01:16 | gjg | awesome! |
| 18:01:17 | nikos | Wow! |
| 18:01:33 | gjg | thats cool, we should include that in familiar by default. |
| 18:01:45 | tvraman | over time yes. |
| 18:02:12 | Kero | Buttons that tell what's written on them already? *blergh* |
| 18:02:18 | tvraman | first goal is to get emacspeak running in ipaq land --that is much bigger than perhaps familiar will accept. |
| 18:02:45 | gjg | responds to the guy who wrote a scheduler |
| 18:03:06 | tvraman | yes -it's a simple hack I picked up off the gtk/gnome list a few months ago --it just adds hooks to on-focus and so on.Not too useful for real use --good for debugging in an eyes-free environment. |
| 18:03:19 | boodle | tvraman: congratulations! |
| 18:07:00 | gjg | cworth: btw, how are the ion hacks for randr coming? |
| 18:08:15 | cworth | gjg: the "true hack", (restart ion when root screen size changes), has been working since early yesterday morning. It works, but the 3 or 4 full-screen flashes are rather annonying. |
| 18:09:01 | gjg | hmm...sounds a cool effect though :) |
| 18:10:11 | cworth | gjg: the randr is very cool though, (and no flashing at all when switching between the two different landscape orientations or the two different portrait orientations). |
| 18:11:03 | gjg | cworth: so the flashing is when ion restarts? |
| 18:11:45 | cworth | gjg: yes, ion goes away and all the windows are redrawn without decorations, then the new ion comes and redraws again, (maybe twice). |
| 18:11:58 | gjg | hmmm...funky |
| 18:12:11 | gjg | How does X know that the resolution has changed? |
| 18:13:18 | cworth | gjg: huh? don't follow your question. |
| 18:13:45 | gjg | rephrases |
| 18:14:10 | gjg | when you want X to change orientations, how do you tell it you want it to change? |
| 18:15:22 | cworth | gjg: ah, well the RandR exstension provides some calls. Jim has provided a small program to provide acces, (xrandr -o {normal|inverted|left|right}). |
| 18:17:13 | gjg | Oh okay..I was wondering how that was going to be accomplished :) so we could have a foal button for the screen orientation for right now. |
| 18:18:14 | cworth | gjg: that would work. Also, a sysset applet would probably make sense too. |
| 18:18:24 | gjg | Yeah |
| 18:19:25 | gjg | cant wait to sit on a plane and have people stare at a PDA running stuff that looks like no other PDA software |
| 18:19:41 | gjg | :) |
| 18:23:12 | nelson | Silly me: why don't we have a symlink from /usr/bin/window-manager to the current window manager? |
| 18:23:47 | nelson | I'm just wondering how I'm supposed to kill blackbox and start ion. |
| 18:24:34 | gjg | I edit the x init script :D |
| 18:24:42 | nikos | How does a desktop handle multiple window managers? |
| 18:24:49 | nelson | It doesn't. You can't. |
| 18:24:56 | nikos | ion-nasty-hacks hacks /etc/init.d/x |
| 18:25:14 | nikos | so /etc/init.d/x stop ; /etc/init.d/x start would get you into ion. |
| 18:25:35 | nelson | I see. Well, that's one way to do it. |
| 18:26:44 | gjg | there probably should be a sym link for ease of switching between window managers. |
| 18:27:30 | cworth | nikos: the fact that ion hacke /etc/init.d/x is what earned ion-nasty-hacks its name. :) |
| 18:27:51 | nikos | cworth: Indeed, I don't disagree. |
| 18:28:07 | cworth | a7r is working on multiple-user support and a login mechanism, (so then each user will have a ~/.xinit to start their favorite wm) |
| 18:29:04 | cworth | in the meantime, ipkg 0.9 now supports update-alternatives so we could do /usr/bin/window-manager in a clean way, (the /bin/sh and /bin/vi problem is already covered this way) |
| 18:29:10 | gjg | is someone working on a login app? |
| 18:29:30 | cworth | gjg: a7r said he would have something rudimentary soon. |
| 18:29:41 | nelson | man ion ? |
| 18:29:56 | gjg | Yeah. he's been busy with other, paying stuff lately :) |
| 18:30:03 | nelson | How do I get a root menu when I'm running ion, or has that concept been lost? |
| 18:30:07 | cworth | gjg: I wouldn't mind a simple GTK drop-down list of the users in /etc/passwd with a LOGIN button. |
| 18:30:12 | nikos | nelson: No such beast. |
| 18:30:21 | gjg | nelson: there is no root menu in ion, install foal for a nice app launcher though |
| 18:30:25 | nikos | nelson: That's an app issue with ion. |
| 18:30:26 | nelson | which? man page or root menu? |
| 18:30:34 | nikos | nelson: root menu |
| 18:30:37 | cworth | nelson: the ion author believes a menu should be an external program, (I happen to agree) |
| 18:30:44 | nikos | I concur. |
| 18:31:00 | gjg | cworth: I think thats what was planned. For now it wouldnt need the pw either. eventually some sort of puzzle for hte password woudl be cool though. |
| 18:31:16 | boodle | isn't foal a root-menu pgm of sorts? |
| 18:31:26 | nelson | Essentially. |
| 18:31:26 | cworth | I would still like to see a nice program launcher app that runs as a window, (as nice as foal is we need something to put in the default ion frame...) :-) |
| 18:31:29 | gjg | kinda, its a pygtk app launcher, it works really well. |
| 18:31:53 | boodle | I haven't tried latest foal but I hope author opted for tooltips |
| 18:32:02 | gjg | cworth: agreed. its annoying when it overlaps the apps. |
| 18:32:09 | gjg | he did. |
| 18:32:11 | gjg | sorta. :) |
| 18:32:12 | nelson | Kewl. I see how ion works. Yes, foal needs tooltips. |
| 18:32:22 | nelson | No, no, *real* tooltips. |
| 18:32:28 | boodle | gjg: sorta.. ? homebrew |
| 18:32:46 | gjg | boodle: they show up when you open a "drawer" not when you hold the pointer over the button. |
| 18:33:09 | boodle | gjg: so they're still not pygtk driven tooltips then? |
| 18:33:17 | nelson | No. |
| 18:33:27 | boodle | ah.. |
| 18:34:06 | gjg | Nope. |
| 18:34:19 | cworth | has anyone tried pygtk tootips on the iPAQ? I would imagine they work quite well, (assuming the button activates on on release). |
| 18:34:22 | gjg | im not sure how well those would work anyways. |
| 18:34:44 | cworth | s/on on/only on/ |
| 18:34:53 | boodle | cworth: I implmented them in scream.. they seem ok |
| 18:35:06 | gjg | boodle: how do they activate? |
| 18:35:28 | boodle | gjg: just move mouse cursor on top of a button and let it sit for 1-2 secs and it pops up |
| 18:35:42 | cworth | I would like "press and hold" on the button to bring it up. Then you can just slide the stlyus away if it's not what you want... |
| 18:35:56 | nikos | That worries me in a widget heavy app though. |
| 18:36:04 | nikos | Probably works OK in most instances. |
| 18:36:05 | cworth | Managing the desktop-typical "slide-onto-the-button" would be a pain I think. |
| 18:36:25 | boodle | nikos: true.. if many buttons nearby and little 'freespace' you'll surly get a popup |
| 18:36:38 | boodle | s/surly/surely/ |
| 18:36:47 | boodle | surly with little sleep :p |
| 18:36:48 | gjg | nikos: thats when you scream and throw the ipaq across the room. |
| 18:37:04 | cworth | also, I would like GTK to *not* bring up the popup if the pointer stays on a button after being clicked, (which would be expected of course). |
| 18:37:04 | nikos | Now that an idea. What if buttons did not react unless the mousedown actually ocurred over the button? |
| 18:38:01 | nikos | That would mean you couldn't just slide around the screen reading tooltips though. |
| 18:38:20 | cworth | nikos: I would imagine most buttons already work this way, (just that click-on-freespace-then-drag-to-button would be an annoying operation). |
| 18:38:30 | nikos | cworth: I agree. I wonder if we really need the pointer. |
| 18:38:38 | cworth | nikos: tap and hold on the button itself would be much more intuitive. |
| 18:38:48 | cworth | nikos: probably not. See unclutter. |
| 18:39:58 | gjg | I wonder if foal would be better as a gtkmenu, with one "root" menu items that folds down into the sub menus. |
| 18:41:00 | cworth | gjg: that would be fine with me. I don't think the buttons have to be as tiny as they are, (you won't be using the menu at the exact same time as any other task). |
| 18:44:06 | gjg | Yup, I think that would be a good alternative to tooltips. |
| 18:44:29 | cworth | gjg: oh, absolutely. |
| 18:45:01 | cworth | gjg: I was thinking about tooltips only for real buttons in applications. |
| 18:48:59 | gjg | cworth: Right. |
| 18:49:01 | cworth | seeks victims to try out an ipkg 0.9 pre-release. |
| 18:49:12 | gjg | goes to email Wez about the possiblily of using a menu |
| 18:49:19 | gjg | cworth: I can try it out later. |
| 18:49:57 | cworth | gjg: OK, try "ipkg install http://scream.east.isi.edu/familiar/hacks/ipkg_0.9_all.ipk" |
| 18:50:26 | cworth | gjg: after you do that, you'll definitely want to add the following line as the first src in ipkg.conf: |
| 18:50:44 | cworth | gjg: src carls-hacks http://scream.east.isi.edu/familiar/hacks |
| 18:50:53 | gjg | Okay. |
| 18:51:08 | gjg | cworth: this version support multiple source lines? |
| 18:51:12 | cworth | gjg: if you don't do that then ipkg will downgrade itself on the next "ipkg upgrade" and everything will break. |
| 18:51:24 | cworth | gjg: yes, first listed gets precedence. |
| 18:51:43 | cworth | gjg: also supports multiple destinations, "ipkg -d udrive install emacs" for example. |
| 18:53:18 | gjg | coolness |
| 18:53:20 | gjg | very cool. |
| 18:58:06 | nikosAWAY | is back |
| 19:04:51 | cworth | re |
| 19:05:00 | nikos | re re |
| 19:05:23 | gjg | re re re |
| 19:24:10 | gjg | http://www.infosync.no/en/news/n/429,2.asp |
| 19:24:44 | edwardam | tvraman: you may want to grab a newer version of pygtk that 0.6.6 |
| 19:24:57 | cworth | gjg: OK, I think I just made my last change to ipkg 0.9. <phew!> |
| 19:25:21 | gjg | cworth: rad, I'll try it on when I get home from work |
| 19:25:52 | nikos | edwardam: 0.6.6 is the newest on his site. |
| 19:26:11 | nikos | edwardam: Henstridge I mean. |
| 19:26:26 | edwardam | nikos: hmmm I think I've been using 0.6.8 .... I though that was the latest |
| 19:26:42 | gjg | edwardam: I think its 0.6.6 |
| 19:26:54 | edwardam | It's possible I'm confused at the momemnt |
| 19:27:05 | edwardam | has spent too much time today fighting windows |
| 19:27:37 | gjg | edwardam: that is a battle you can not win. |
| 19:27:53 | edwardam | I know. I've decided I need to format and start again with the machine. |
| 19:28:27 | edwardam | http://freshmeat.net/redir/pygtk/8536/url_tgz/pygtk-0.6.8.tar.gz |
| 19:28:30 | edwardam | 0.6.8 |
| 19:28:39 | gjg | hm |
| 19:28:52 | edwardam | should also be on ftp.gtk.com |
| 19:28:52 | gjg | the latest in the download area on the guy's site is 0.6.6 |
| 19:28:56 | edwardam | err .org or whatever |
| 19:28:58 | nikos | Kind of odd that the PyGTK site doesn't reference that version. |
| 19:29:11 | edwardam | gjg: James doesn't keep his site very up to date |
| 19:29:21 | gjg | Ah |
| 19:29:30 | nikos | Very interesting. He doesn't point to the ftp.gtk.org which has 0.6.8 though. |
| 19:29:32 | edwardam | The basic site hasn't changed in 2+ years ... just occasionaly version # updates |
| 19:29:56 | gjg | hmm..I guess its time to update :) |
| 19:30:24 | gjg | anyone check out that url I pasted? |
| 19:30:39 | nikos | edwardam: Which version will be in Fam 0.5? |
| 19:30:42 | edwardam | So, It looked like a busy chat day. Did I miss anything ? |
| 19:30:50 | nikos | gjg: URL? |
| 19:31:07 | edwardam | nikos: Prolly 0.6.6 ... I'm not sure anymore ... maybe 0.6.7 ... What does ipkg say ? |
| 19:31:11 | nikos | edwardam: VERY busy. Starting to look like other channels I can't follow in #handhelds.org |
| 19:31:15 | edwardam | left his ipaq at home today |
| 19:31:36 | nikos | edwardam: The goal in this case was to have a setup similar to Fam, so I think its best to stick with 0.6.6 for tvraman |
| 19:31:40 | gjg | http://www.infosync.no/en/news/n/429,2.asp |
| 19:31:40 | edwardam | forgot to set his buffer to 0 (unlimited) ... So most of it is lost . :-( |
| 19:32:17 | edwardam | I think unstable may have 0.6.8 in ... boodle mentioned a dependancy on 0.6.8 at some point iirc |
| 19:35:16 | nikos | edwardam: Yeah that sound right. |
| 19:35:18 | gjg | isnt there anything significant in 0.6.8? |
| 19:35:35 | edwardam | gjg: bug fixes :-) |
| 19:35:47 | gjg | any significant bug fixes? :) |
| 19:36:17 | edwardam | gjg: NAFAIK ... I think boodle (or nelson) ran into something that was fixed in 0.6.8 |
| 19:47:38 | nelson | I think it was boodle, and it was a color palette bug. |
| 19:49:44 | gjg | goes to get some food |
| 19:51:55 | tvraman | back from lunch --time to do more hackery --nikos still around? |
| 19:52:04 | nikos | tvraman: Yep. Hi. |
| 19:53:11 | tvraman | next step? Have familar/framework running on my desktop --looking through the code. I have two goals --one to get emacspeak running --the other to define a mini project for my summer intern --I was hoping to do the lattre around a set of python apps under familiar. |
| 19:53:26 | tvraman | Q: is framework sufficiently complete for the latter --or are there other choices? |
| 19:54:00 | nikos | tvraman: There is a GUI application for MP3 playing and MP3 streams. |
| 19:54:11 | nikos | tvraman: There's a lot of stuff. I'm not sure where to start really. |
| 19:54:29 | nikos | tvraman: I think PIM type apps would be very well received though. |
| 19:54:45 | nikos | tvraman: You might look at foal which is sort of an application launcher. |
| 19:54:49 | tvraman | calendar/datebook thing is a good start demo. I dont want to do the mp3 thing because I'll spend most of my energy fighting duplex (or the lack thereof) problems. |
| 19:55:11 | tvraman | where is this foal you speak of? |
| 19:55:56 | | hmmm... foal is a application launcher written in Python and GTK |
| 19:55:57 | nikos | ibot: foal? |
| 19:56:07 | nikos | Anybody have a pointer to foal? |
| 19:56:26 | edwardam | nikos: the mailing list archives |
| 19:56:31 | tvraman | not too interested in an app launcher --need an app first! |
| 19:56:38 | nikos | edwardam: Can't let me be lazy huh. |
| 19:56:49 | nikos | tvraman: I agree. |
| 19:56:50 | edwardam | tvraman: Datebook/Calendar ... integrated with Mingle (or part of it) |
| 19:57:03 | tvraman | edwardam sharky update? |
| 19:57:39 | tvraman | nikos --also I have a microdrive up and working on the ipaq. What is hte most painless way of getting a full environment up on the microdrive without messing up familiar on th eipaq? |
| 19:58:00 | edwardam | tvraman: My shark's existing image is hosed. I can no longer find the old base image I started with. So ... I started building a new one last night. Then got lost in a python/scream (the mp3 player that nikos mentioned) discussion ... and it was time for bed... |
| 19:58:20 | edwardam | tvraman: union mounts. But they don't work yet. :-) |
| 19:58:24 | nikos | tvraman: Intimate. http://intimate.handhelds.org |
| 19:58:38 | nikos | tvraman: Tangent is the developer. Talk to him if you have any questions. |
| 19:58:52 | tvraman | I keep being told intimate --and the url keeps going to the bottom of my stack of things to read. what exactly does intimate do? |
| 19:58:53 | nikos | tvraman: Basically it uses Debian ARM. |
| 19:59:15 | nikos | tvraman: It's designed to let you have Familiar in flash and Debian ARM on the microdrive. |
| 19:59:16 | Tangent | tvraman : Full blown linux on the iPAQ... boots from udrive... |
| 19:59:45 | edwardam | tvraman: I should finish my base image tonight (hopefully). |
| 19:59:57 | tvraman | sounds like exactly what I want. Q: what is udrive? |
| 20:00:04 | Tangent | tvraman : An extension to intimate :) |
| 20:00:08 | Tangent | u=micro |
| 20:00:39 | edwardam | tvraman: the way I am doing things is testing by booting everything from nfs (kernel and root) and using the local hd from swap. Once I am happy with things I'll move everything over to the hard drive. |
| 20:00:39 | tvraman | u= micro --that explains it. I have a 1gb microdrive --benefits of working Big Blue-- |
| 20:01:02 | tvraman | edward --if you could send me a hard drive image that would be perfect. |
| 20:01:40 | tvraman | now let me read that intimate site before it goes to the bottom of the stack of buffers in my emacs --emacs session has been going for 3 weeks and more --so that stack of buffers is pretty deeep... |
| 20:01:47 | edwardam | tvraman: Once I'm set I'll be able to send you a .tar.gz of the fs and the kernel. But that is prolly a bit off yet... I'll have to see what I can do tonight... |
| 20:02:09 | Tangent | tvraman : Don't use the install instructions from the site... |
| 20:02:19 | edwardam | tvraman: so what chance of getting viavoice on the ipaq is there? |
| 20:02:37 | Tangent | tvraman : That is the old dist.. we've stopped supporting it as of yesterday.. there's a new one gone into beta.. but the site still needs an update |
| 20:02:44 | tvraman | intimate: dont use the install instructions from the site --then what do I do? |
| 20:02:55 | tvraman | Edward --viavoice on ipaq too early to talk publicly about it. |
| 20:03:12 | edwardam | tvraman: :-( ... Oh well |
| 20:03:15 | tvraman | so when/how/where do I get the new intimate install? |
| 20:03:22 | Tangent | tvraman : The install line is different... |
| 20:03:24 | edwardam | dang ... meeting ... ltr |
| 20:03:28 | edwardam | is away: Meeting |
| 20:03:30 | Tangent | should read as follows... |
| 20:03:59 | Tangent | cd /tmp && rm -rf /tmp/* && wget http://intimate.handhelds.org/installer/beta-installer && sh beta-installer |
| 20:04:16 | Tangent | tvraman : And there's an extra question in the isntaller... (Do you want to install .debs) to which you _must_ answer yes if you want it to work... |
| 20:05:04 | Tangent | tvraman : Best to be present on #intimate while you install though |
| 20:05:16 | Tangent | for now.... |
| 20:05:40 | tvraman | tangent --I'm still not up to speed with what you're talking about because I still need to read the intimate site. |
| 20:05:54 | tvraman | Your instructions assume that my ipaq is on the net --alas it is not so -- |
| 20:06:21 | tvraman | do you have instructions for me that will let me download stuff to my machine and then tell the ipaq to pick it up from there? |
| 20:06:25 | Tangent | tvraman : Sadly, it must be so... Though you can install if you can plug the udrive into something else... |
| 20:06:43 | tvraman | The easiest would be to copy stuff onto the microdrive, and then put the microdrive into the ipaq |
| 20:06:45 | Tangent | tvraman : Look at the beta-installer script |
| 20:06:58 | Tangent | tvraman : You'll need to follow much the same steps... |
| 20:07:08 | tvraman | I can plug the udrive into my laptop which is on the net. |
| 20:07:09 | Tangent | tvraman : When we release, a .tgz of the base will be available... |
| 20:07:25 | Tangent | tvraman : But the .deb repositary really needs to be accessible from the iPAQ... |
| 20:07:40 | Tangent | tvraman : You couold use PPP/usbnet to connect the iPAQ to the net |
| 20:07:42 | tvraman | okay --let me do some reading --at this point I'm likely to get confused rather than encouraged. |
| 20:08:03 | tvraman | it's connected by ppp to my desktop --but that link is ssslllooowww. |
| 20:08:30 | Tangent | tvraman : Install over ppp should take about 2 hours |
| 20:13:20 | tvraman | tangent --back from a quick read. request --lose the ascii art causes TTS untol pain ... |
| 20:14:12 | tvraman | I'm still trying to figure out what I need to download to the udrive --earlier you asked to pull the beta-installer --is this all I need --or will that thing want to pull more off the net as it runs? |
| 20:17:11 | tvraman | tangent --looking at the installer shell script. if you can tell me what to download before I figure it out from the shell script ... |
| 20:17:11 | Tangent | tvraman : It pulls bits off the net as it goes... |
| 20:17:27 | Tangent | tvraman : The base is copied to the microdrive using rsync |
| 20:17:44 | Tangent | So you could rsync the base to the microdirve using a laptop first... |
| 20:17:55 | Tangent | tvraman : To cut down the install time |
| 20:18:19 | Tangent | tvraman : But the intimate distribution expects to be able to access the net for package installation |
| 20:18:37 | nelson | tvraman: Agreed. Calendar/scheduler is important. |
| 20:18:43 | tvraman | terminology woes. what s the "base"? Easiest would be to wget a bunch of stuff to the udrive on my laptop --plug the udrive into the ipaq and tell the ipaq to do its stuff --is this possible? |
| 20:19:19 | tvraman | I'm badly hosed if it will want the net for package installation --wont I be able to copy packages to the udrive later? |
| 20:19:37 | tvraman | nelson --so what calendar/schedular for familiar do you recommend? |
| 20:19:44 | Tangent | tvraman : The intimate distribution is built from debian components... The base started off as the debian 2.2 stable base that they distribute for strange installation situations... for example, no floppy and no CD |
| 20:20:00 | Tangent | tvraman : We upgraded the base to debian unstable, and configured it so that it would boot on the iPAQ |
| 20:20:08 | tvraman | okay so I download "base" and put it on udrive --where is "base"? |
| 20:20:14 | nelson | tvraman: In my experience, nobody designs their application to run on very small screens. |
| 20:20:17 | Tangent | tvraman : It has no X-Windows, and no kernel modules to start with |
| 20:20:36 | Tangent | tvraman : The base is currently only available using rsync |
| 20:20:37 | tvraman | okay --understood. |
| 20:20:51 | nelson | tvraman: for my GPS application, I used glade with multiple glade files for different screen resolutions. |
| 20:21:02 | tvraman | tangent --I'm sitting behind a firewall --how would rsync even work ! |
| 20:21:02 | Tangent | tvraman : The command you need to install is.... (one second.. finding command...) |
| 20:21:28 | Tangent | tvraman : Hang on then... I'll tar up the base image for you... It shouldn't change between now and release anyway |
| 20:21:58 | tvraman | nelson --perhaps you missed some context for the earlier conversation into which you've jumped in --anyway I need to focus on intimate for a while. |
| 20:22:20 | tvraman | tangent --thanks. but in an attempt to clarify you're also confusing me. |
| 20:22:24 | gjg | nelson: what hardward does that app use? |
| 20:22:48 | nelson | gjg: anything supported by gpsd. |
| 20:22:58 | gjg | nelson: cool |
| 20:23:09 | tvraman | so I understand you're tarring the base because it's not released on the WWW site yet? I really realy would encourage both familiar and intimate not to always assume network connectivity for the ipaq since so many of the network cards dont work. |
| 20:23:12 | nelson | gjg: cworth says that his Garmin works with it. |
| 20:23:33 | gjg | excellant |
| 20:24:42 | Tangent | tvraman : The base image is at http://intimate.handhelds.org/beta-base.tgz |
| 20:24:53 | nelson | gjg: and I develop with a Delorme Earthmate, but I'm going to switch to a pretec CF GPS receiver when it's available. |
| 20:24:54 | tvraman | tangent --looking at /anonymous@ipaq.secret.org.uk:/intimate/latest/release: |
| 20:25:30 | Tangent | tvraman : That's the old stuff. Not worth looking at now... |
| 20:25:39 | tvraman | grabbed it 14:25:35 (1.76 MB/s) - `beta-base.tgz' saved [18467206/18467206] |
| 20:25:40 | nikos | I'll be using a Garmin Vista soon I think. |
| 20:26:02 | Tangent | tvraman : The paths are from / (root) so you want to cd onto the microdrive before you untar |
| 20:26:16 | gjg | nikos: got a url for them? |
| 20:26:18 | tvraman | what is a garmin vista --sounds like an exotic piece of clothing when spoken by TTS |
| 20:26:35 | nikos | gjg: For Garmin, or the Vista specifically? |
| 20:27:03 | tvraman | tangent --okay --so I untar the base tar ball on to the root level of the microdrive correct? |
| 20:27:04 | gjg | either or |
| 20:27:11 | nikos | gjg: http://www.garmin.com |
| 20:27:13 | Tangent | tvraman : Correct |
| 20:27:15 | gjg | thanks |
| 20:28:19 | tvraman | tangent-- and then I run the base-installer shell script? does it mattre where I mount the microdrive? |
| 20:28:36 | Tangent | tvraman : Don't run the installer script yet... |
| 20:28:49 | Tangent | tvraman : In fact, we'll do this so that you don't have to run it at all... |
| 20:29:17 | tvraman | great --define "this" above? |
| 20:29:42 | Tangent | tvrman : this = install procedure |
| 20:29:55 | gjg | nikos: ``Coming Soon.`` |
| 20:30:35 | nikos | gjg: What is? |
| 20:30:37 | tvraman | tangent --thanks --by the way I'm raman --ssee that you're writing tvraman which is my login name at IBM. |
| 20:30:45 | gjg | nikos: that URL. |
| 20:30:58 | nikos | gjg: http://www.garmin.com ? |
| 20:31:03 | nikos | gjg: I'm looking at it right now. |
| 20:31:04 | Tangent | raman : My IRC client autocompletes the name tvraman |
| 20:31:10 | gjg | er I think I typed it wrong. |
| 20:31:14 | nikos | Heh |
| 20:31:15 | gjg | OH...Garmin. |
| 20:31:21 | Tangent | raman : Next, fetch this archive http://ipaq.secret.org.uk/intimate/latest/libmodules-2.4.3-rmk2-np1.tgz |
| 20:31:51 | Tangent | then cd to /lib/modules on the microdrive and untar it |
| 20:32:06 | nikos | I'm lost on the whole raman, tvraman issue. |
| 20:32:26 | tvraman | skipped a step. I had asked whether it mattered where I mounted the udrive --I assume it doesn't matter? |
| 20:32:35 | tvraman | so: I'll assume I do ... |
| 20:32:43 | Tangent | tvraman : Are you running this on the laptop? |
| 20:32:44 | tvraman | 1) mount microdrive as /mnt/udrive |
| 20:32:55 | tvraman | 2) cd /mnt/udrive and untar base.tar.gz |
| 20:32:56 | Tangent | tvraman : The script is designed to run on the iPAQ |
| 20:33:03 | Tangent | tvraman : It may mess up your laptop |
| 20:33:21 | Tangent | tvraman : Though it shouldn't mess anything up |
| 20:33:37 | tvraman | 3) the above creates |
| 20:34:00 | tvraman | i would not dare run the scirpt on my laptop --that would be way too adventurous |
| 20:34:05 | tvraman | returning to what I understood -- |
| 20:34:30 | tvraman | after I unpack base.tar.gz which would have created /lib/modules on the microdrive I unpack the second tarball there? |
| 20:34:31 | Tangent | tvraman : I'm a little confused as to what stage you're at |
| 20:34:37 | tvraman | do I need to do a chroot at some point? |
| 20:34:53 | tvraman | all I've done is download things to my desktop machine -- |
| 20:35:04 | Tangent | tvraman : Correct.. the /lib/modules directory should be there but empty until you untar the libmodules archive |
| 20:35:20 | Tangent | tvraman : The arm binaries on the microdrive will not run if you chroot |
| 20:35:31 | Tangent | tvraman : That'll only work from familar |
| 20:35:50 | Tangent | tvraman : Once the libmodules is untarred though, You'll have a booting system |
| 20:36:12 | Tangent | tvraman : Familiar will still need some updates though |
| 20:36:37 | Tangent | tvraman : we need a new linuxrc before intimate will boot up |
| 20:38:11 | tvraman | so : I untar beta-base.tar.gz and libmods.tar.gz on the tangent --you're confusing me again -- |
| 20:38:37 | tvraman | I was saying --I untar base and libmods on to the root of the microdrive filesystem (currently e2fs) |
| 20:39:00 | tvraman | I understood that the next time I booted it with the microdrive in it would boot off the microdrive --is that correct? |
| 20:39:07 | Tangent | tvraman : Using the latop, untar the beta-base image to the microdrive, and then untar the libmodules archive to lib/modules on the microdrive |
| 20:39:20 | Tangent | tvraman : Once you've done that, the microdrive is in a bootable state |
| 20:39:35 | Tangent | tvraman : But familiar will need changes before we can boot it. |
| 20:40:06 | tvraman | I see --so once I do this then my ipaq will boot off the microdrive but not off flash? |
| 20:41:07 | Tangent | Once you make the changes to familiar, your iPAQ will boot from the microdrive if it's plugged in, or boot from familiar if the drive is not there |
| 20:41:36 | tvraman | tangent --you're talking still of sme unspecified changes to familiar. One thing a time please? |
| 20:41:49 | tvraman | so: I put base and modules on the microdrive --haven't changed familiar. |
| 20:42:01 | Tangent | tvraman : I think that we're at the stage where you're ready to make the changes to familiar.. |
| 20:42:04 | tvraman | Is this microdrive bootable yet --and if it is bootable --what happens when it boots? |
| 20:42:06 | nelson | tvraman: a Garmin Vista is a global positioning system receiver. |
| 20:42:18 | Tangent | tvraman : I just wanted to make sure that we were at the same point in the install |
| 20:42:41 | tvraman | thanks tangent --I'm not doing the install yet --cant because I cant see and my friend who can isn't around. |
| 20:42:59 | Tangent | tvraman : OK.. NP... |
| 20:43:17 | tvraman | What I'm doing is to get all the bits put on the microdrive so I can do the remaining when I have a working set of photon-detectors around. |
| 20:43:44 | tvraman | nelson --gps receiver sounds cool. |
| 20:44:00 | Tangent | tvraman : Grab the following two files... http://intimate.handhelds.org/installer/reiserfs-module_2.4.3-rmk2-np1-arm.ipk and http://intimate.handhelds.org/installer/intimateboot-051601-arm.ipk |
| 20:44:22 | Tangent | tvraman : And install them in familiar using ipkg |
| 20:44:31 | Tangent | tvraman : The same way you would with any other package |
| 20:44:58 | Tangent | tvraman : Lastly, you need to set your linuxargs in the bootloader to the following |
| 20:45:38 | Tangent | "noinitrd devfs=mount root=/dev/mtdblock3 init=/linuxrc.intimate console=ttySA0" |
| 20:45:57 | jacques | 'lo all |
| 20:46:04 | Tangent | tvraman : After you do that, you should be able to boot into intimate |
| 20:46:18 | Tangent | Hi jacques |
| 20:46:35 | tvraman | tangent --hold on --feels like drinking from a fire hse. give me a few minutes to absorb what you've told me. |
| 20:47:55 | nailerr | has anyone got an fdisk binary for familiar plz? |
| 20:48:16 | Tangent | nailerr : In here... http://intimate.handhelds.org/installer/util/ |
| 20:48:29 | nailerr | thnx muchly Tangent |
| 20:48:42 | nailerr | wanna format my CF, 2% left on the ipaq |
| 20:48:46 | Tangent | nailerr : NP |
| 20:49:03 | nailerr | OH, hm. think reiserFS is worth it on 32mb? |
| 20:49:21 | Tangent | nailerr : No.. reiserfs wastes more space than ext2 |
| 20:49:29 | nailerr | oki |
| 20:49:49 | BBrox | nailerr: you have a udrive on your CF ? |
| 20:50:09 | Tangent | BBrox : Huh? udrive on CF.. what? |
| 20:50:12 | tvraman | tangent --think I'm done absorbing the stuff you told me --even put it into a install file --can I mail it to you? |
| 20:50:28 | Tangent | tvraman : jim@secret.org.uk |
| 20:50:51 | Tangent | tvraman : I could make life easy for you and just tar up my microdrive and upload it... |
| 20:51:12 | BBrox | Tangent: well CF is CompactFlash for me, so it could be anything :) A memory card, an udrive, a ... |
| 20:51:22 | Tangent | BBrox : 32Mb in size :) |
| 20:51:37 | BBrox | Tangent: argh, I should read :-) |
| 20:51:46 | BBrox | nailerr: then why not use JFFS2 on this CF card ? |
| 20:51:46 | Tangent | :) |
| 20:52:00 | Tangent | BBrox : jffs2 doesn't work on block devices |
| 20:52:34 | tvraman | tangent --you said after I did an ipkg of those two last files I grabbed I would be "booting intimate." Question: + |
| 20:52:39 | BBrox | Tangent: well, why is the internal flash and external flash different ? |
| 20:52:45 | BBrox | Tangent: they are both flash devices ? |
| 20:52:59 | tvraman | What is the difference between the ipaq booting from the udrive if it is there --or from flash if it is not there vs "booting intimate". |
| 20:53:14 | Tangent | BBrox : jffs2 assumes that it can write single bits/bytes... CF pretends to be an IDE deivce |
| 20:53:41 | Tangent | tvraman : booting intimate = booting from udrive if it's there |
| 20:54:05 | tvraman | tangent --then --what do the ipkg of the two files I pulled do? |
| 20:55:08 | Tangent | tvraman : The intimate distro assumes that you're using reiserfs filesystem. One of the packages it the reiserfs module for familiar. The other package is the replacement linuxrc which is called linuxrc.intimate |
| 20:55:26 | Tangent | tvraman : The linuxrc gets fun before anything else |
| 20:55:31 | Tangent | gets run |
| 20:56:37 | gjg | wow a fun linuxrc. |
| 20:57:18 | tvraman | thanks tangent! re: rieserfs is it worth it at some point to change the udrive from e2fs to something like rieserfs --or is it not worth bothering? |
| 20:57:36 | tvraman | ps what does linuxrc do -- |
| 20:57:58 | Tangent | tvraman : I found that an ext2 formatted drive filled to capacity would take up to seven minutes to check |
| 20:58:09 | Tangent | tvraman : That's why I switched to reiserfs |
| 20:58:45 | tvraman | I've heard good things about rieserfs too --just haven't used it myself. May be for now I'll leave the udrive as e2fs while I get intimate going -- |
| 21:01:15 | icant | if anyone's listening, i was wondering if anyone has a recommendation for a cf net card |
| 21:01:45 | tvraman | and while talking net cards --any one got any 3c5xx cards working on ipaq/familiar? |
| 21:02:09 | icant | yeah, that too... |
| 21:02:57 | nikos | icant: Socket cards work I believe. |
| 21:03:24 | nikos | icant: It's a little hold but see http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/IpaqHardwareCompatibility |
| 21:03:34 | icant | interesting...i saw one for about $120 |
| 21:05:12 | nikos | s/hold/old/ |
| 21:05:40 | jacques | only problem with reiserfs right now is tha dang 32MB hardwired size jourmal |
| 21:05:55 | tvraman | tangent --one question on ipkg having never used it before -- |
| 21:06:15 | tvraman | just tried ipkg --help and ipkg -h and it helpfully says ipkg_h not found. |
| 21:06:25 | tvraman | Define "use ipkg " as you would ... |
| 21:06:37 | Tangent | tvraman : The install line you need is |
| 21:06:45 | Tangent | tvraman : ipkg install ./<packagename> |
| 21:06:47 | nikos | tvraman: Hmm, you need to update ipkg when you get a net connection. |
| 21:06:51 | | well, ipkg is a work-in-progress package manager for the iPAQ. See http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/iPKG |
| 21:06:51 | nikos | ibot: ipkg |
| 21:07:00 | nikos | tvraman: You might want to see that URL as well. |
| 21:07:30 | Tangent | tvraman : Having an internet connection for the iPAQ makes things a lot easier |
| 21:08:02 | | a7r was last seen on #familiar 11 hours, 59 minutes and 28 seconds ago, saying: I'm going to buy one for my little brother to tinker with, I think. [Wed Jun 13 10:08:34 2001] |
| 21:08:02 | jg | ibot: seen a7r? |
| 21:08:16 | nikos | jg: Hasn't been on so far today. |
| 21:08:27 | jg | Oh, well... |
| 21:08:58 | tvraman | tangent --agree on the network importance --dont get me started! not getting any of the network cards working on the ipaq has been possibly the most frustrating thing with this whole process --hope that changes soon or we will all be saying "ouch" and wince with pain as I said yesterday |
| 21:09:26 | Tangent | tvraman : Getting USB networking set up is the way forward |
| 21:09:31 | jg | got crash bug in X server from randr fixed, and added the small number of lines of code, blackbox "does the right thing... |
| 21:09:39 | nikos | jg: Excellent! |
| 21:09:45 | Tangent | tvraman : You need to get your cradle modified to provide both USB and serial connections |
| 21:10:05 | tvraman | will look into what is involved in getting the cradle modified. |
| 21:10:07 | gjg | hm |
| 21:10:25 | gjg | is anyone doing work to use the iapq's sound recorder in linux? |
| 21:10:31 | nikos | We do need to figure out what is going on with the 3c5xx cards though. |
| 21:10:35 | tvraman | i'd like to soon -- |
| 21:10:48 | Tangent | tvraman : I have a good set of instructions for cradle modification online at http://ipaq.secret.org.uk |
| 21:10:54 | w13rdo | can you just use a Store bought serial cradle for iPaq |
| 21:10:56 | jacques | jg: COOL |
| 21:11:06 | nikos | w13rdo: Yes. |
| 21:11:31 | tvraman | yes --usbnet is presently not a solution for me because the machine the ipaq is connected to doesn't have usb. can I actually use usbnet to talk tcp/ip to a network port on the wall? |
| 21:12:25 | tvraman | by the way tangent --how did you get that cool domain name? one of the better ones I've seen since wiretap.spies.com |
| 21:13:07 | nikos | tvraman: I think it would be easiest for you to find another net card in your situation. |
| 21:13:28 | nikos | tvraman: usbnet requires a supportin laptop or PC with USB master. |
| 21:13:45 | Tangent | tvraman : My mate registered a load of domains while they were still free and he worked for an ISP. We got secret.org.uk, paranoia.org.uk, uncle.org.uk, spectrum.org.uk, home.org.uk, work.org.uk, pub.org.uk and fu.cx |
| 21:14:22 | w13rdo | ami right to assume Compaq's wl100 is supported ? 802.11b |
| 21:14:26 | Tangent | tvraman : fu.cx is my favorite, but we don't have delegation over that at the moment.. my mate needs to speak to his mate to get it sorted out |
| 21:14:38 | tvraman | nikos --that was what I was afraid of with usbnet. is there alist of network cards known to work under familiar/ipaq |
| 21:14:50 | nikos | w13rdo: I believe that is correct. I'm not sure it works out of the box, but I think there are working drivers floating around. |
| 21:15:06 | nikos | tvraman: Not a good one. Any NE2000 should be good. |
| 21:15:17 | nikos | tvraman: http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/IpaqHardwareCompatibility has a poorly updated list. |
| 21:15:30 | tvraman | will see if I can find an ne2000 know of any ibm cards that work? |
| 21:15:55 | gjg | tvraman: I know the linksys ones work |
| 21:15:56 | tvraman | "poorly updated" never inspires enough confidence in one to want to go read. |
| 21:16:00 | nikos | tvraman: Not that I know of. |
| 21:16:15 | Tangent | Not that it helps much, but my Dlink DE-650 BNC adaptor works fine in the iPAQ.. just need a network to connect it to now... |
| 21:16:17 | tvraman | gjg --thanks |
| 21:16:49 | tvraman | well --I guess I collected a list of three known to work cards --:-) |
| 21:17:17 | gjg | http://www.infosync.no/en/news/n/16,2.asp |
| 21:17:37 | w13rdo | nikos I have them, asking about testimonials - can one "switch back and forth" between ppc and familiar by "toggling" ROMs? |
| 21:18:08 | nikos | w13rdo: Technically yes. There is no quick way to do so. And I think it would be a hassle under the best of situations. |
| 21:18:19 | nikos | gjg: What are we supposed to be seeing there? |
| 21:19:37 | w13rdo | I'm interested in building my own wearable platform, what about Compaq's SoftPak for the PPC 1.77 upade? Couldn't something like that fascilitate "flipping"? |
| 21:19:39 | gjg | screenshots |
| 21:20:20 | nikos | gjg: That site needs some explanations, I don't really know what I'm looking at. |
| 21:20:40 | nikos | w13rdo: You aren't going to get any comments of any kind about M$ here. |
| 21:21:12 | gjg | Oh...thats Quartz, the new OS from Symbian, used on the psions now. |
| 21:22:16 | w13rdo | nikos: I figured, but in many cases, in order to show one platforms superiority, flipping for "contrast" would be nice. |
| 21:22:32 | gjg | nikos: I thought it looked kinda nice. |
| 21:23:01 | nikos | w13rdo: It's too early for any such comparison at this time. This is a v0.4 distribution. It's not designed for "users" at this point. |
| 21:23:37 | tvraman | tangent --attempting to browse the intimate packages at http://ipaq.secret.org.uk/intimate/latest/debian throws an error |
| 21:23:52 | jacques | jg: is the crash fix checked in to xfree cvs yet? |
| 21:24:01 | Tangent | tvraman : use http://intimate.handhelds.org/debian |
| 21:24:40 | tvraman | nikos --returning to the question I started with this morning --what calenar/pim apps does familiar have --I'm looking at framework -- what else? |
| 21:25:23 | gjg | tvraman: thats about it at the moment. |
| 21:25:33 | nikos | tvraman: Not a lot. Frankly I've not been paying much attention to such issues lately. |
| 21:25:55 | nikos | tvraman: But if gjg gets off his ass and commits his changes to CVS you might get to see a little more. ;) |
| 21:26:02 | gjg | Haha |
| 21:26:24 | gjg | nikos: I can do it right now but mingle crashes :) |
| 21:26:33 | nikos | gjg: OK, maybe not a good time. ;) |
| 21:26:38 | gjg | probably not :) |
| 21:27:57 | nikos | Now that I've complained about other peoples laziness. I'm going to quit for the day... |
| 21:28:02 | nikos | Good night everyone |
| 21:29:03 | gjg | hasta |
| 21:32:39 | icant | im having some library problems when blackbox tries to start on bootup---- blackbox: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: undefined symbol: __ti3ios |
| 21:32:46 | gjg | tvraman: the idea of the framework is to have all all the PIM apps interconnected with one another, everything is in an object basically. |
| 21:37:38 | tvraman | gjg --thanks. I am specifically looking for a small app to let the summer intern loose on -- she knows little and I need something simple to get started. |
| 21:38:58 | tvraman | gjg --also this is the first time I'll be hacking gtk+glade myself --so I'm learning to. |
| 21:40:16 | jg | jacques: yes, all checked in. |
| 21:41:57 | gjg | tvraman: there is mingle (contact manager), notepaq, and the beginnings of a scheduler. |
| 21:42:37 | jacques | jg: hmmm, by whom? looking at commit archive and the files modified in my cvsup I can't tell which it is |
| 21:43:22 | nailerr | does anyone kno |
| 21:45:05 | tvraman | jim --yes --have mingle here already --that was this morning's exercise --got python2 --all of it working on my desktop so I can go hack it. |
| 21:47:11 | icant | im having some library problems when blackbox tries to start on bootup---- blackbox: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: undefined symbol: __ti3ios |
| 21:49:45 | gjg | icant: on an ipaq? |
| 21:50:16 | BBrox | icant: do you have Intimate per chance ? |
| 21:50:20 | tvraman | gjg --looking at framework code as I type --could we add multiple view classes so one view can do a visual view another a speech view so instead of only ContactView have ContactVisualView ContactAuralView --later allow for mixin views so you get both aural and visual feedback |
| 21:50:57 | gjg | tvraman: I dont see why not. |
| 21:52:48 | jg | jacques: where do you cvsup from? |
| 21:53:14 | tvraman | gjg --before I go reinvent the wheel could you point me at a glade/pygtk tutorial of sorts I want to take a simple gismo through its steps and understand what the right place to add things is-- ultimately I'd like to have the foo.glade file for the aural interface specify what voices to use when speaking, what grammars to use when listening etc. |
| 21:53:59 | tvraman | jim --where do you cvsup from sounded like you were asking him where he ate:-) (tts can still add humor where none exists-- |
| 21:54:57 | jacques | jg: host=anoncvs.xfree86.org |
| 21:55:57 | jg | Keith and I work off of the "secret" master cvs pool: it gets pushed out every few hours to the public one. |
| 21:56:00 | gjg | tvraman: building the GUI with glade is pretty straight forward, if you look at how we did it in the framework it should also be straightforward, the glade items are read into an array and then when you want to use a widget you just reference it in the array. |
| 21:56:14 | gjg | hums secret agent man |
| 21:57:08 | nailerr | hm, anyone what is the other channel than this #openprojects.net ? |
| 21:57:24 | gjg | nailerr: hmm? |
| 21:58:01 | nailerr | gj, i was in this channel, #ipaq and a third, you were in too |
| 21:58:09 | nailerr | i am in BX now, forgot the channel.. |
| 21:58:12 | tvraman | gjg --thanks. I'm still missing the big picture while sequentially reading through the framework code. |
| 21:58:56 | gjg | tvraman: no prob, feel free to ask me any questions. |
| 21:59:07 | jacques | jg: OK, NP. I'll try a bit later |
| 21:59:11 | nailerr | ah got it |
| 21:59:16 | cworth | good evening all. |
| 21:59:27 | jg | The changes are in miext and kdrive and fbdev... |
| 21:59:35 | jg | cworth: BB works. |
| 21:59:42 | cworth | pardon me if I'm in and out... electric storm here keeps taking the power, (at least I'm on my laptop) |
| 21:59:45 | cworth | jg: great |
| 21:59:50 | jacques | jg: ok, OK, I did see the miext in the commit list archives |
| 22:00:16 | cworth | one last tweak and I will release ipkg 0.9 |
| 22:00:28 | nailerr | Is there anyone who could read a PPP/serial error for me and tell me what might be failing please? |
| 22:00:34 | jg | will it do the menu stuff? |
| 22:00:40 | jacques | jg: where can one get the new blackbox :-) :-) |
| 22:01:01 | cworth | jg: yes and no... |
| 22:01:17 | tvraman | gjg --here goes -- |
| 22:01:26 | cworth | jg: that is, it will do what it should, (which is simply to call the /etc/menu-method/* scripts). |
| 22:01:58 | tvraman | Looking in src/familiar --ObjectManager.py does pickling --and looking inside him I see import contact import task import familiar --I assume these are the main classes -- |
| 22:02:04 | cworth | jg: but each window manager/menu program needs to provide a script in /etc/menu-methods before everything will work. |
| 22:03:01 | jg | jacques: we'll put out the updated package for BB tomorrow... |
| 22:03:04 | tvraman | next, I see that Familiar?Class is the main super class --assume each of the others inherit from him --at least seems to be true for the first two I looked at-- |
| 22:03:37 | cworth | jacques: and I'll try to match jg's timing with my new ion package, (also supporting randr) |
| 22:03:42 | jg | cworth: do we have such scripts for bb and ion? |
| 22:03:53 | cworth | jg: ion has no menu |
| 22:04:02 | jg | how about for bb? |
| 22:04:05 | cworth | jg: foal is an external menu program that does have such a script |
| 22:04:09 | tvraman | what I'm missing is hw the helper classes in things like Contact.py e.g. GladeHelper and ContactView for instance hook in --and what roles the glade files play. |
| 22:04:15 | cworth | jg: I don't think the BB script has been written yet. |
| 22:04:26 | jg | No one has written it for debian? |
| 22:05:39 | cworth | jg: well, there is a sort of super-script that exists for Debian called install-menus. The Debian blackbock /etc/menu-method script uses install-menus as its interpreter and just sort of guides it... |
| 22:06:40 | cworth | jg: we've decided against the install-menus route because it is about 200kB and would also require Debian's update-menus program which is another 200kB or so, (or maybe it's just a total of 300kB for the two programs) |
| 22:07:19 | cworth | jg: in a pinch the blackbox package could actually include those programs from Debian, but it'd be a shameful waste of flash I think. |
| 22:08:12 | Tangent | tvraman : You may be pleased to hear that I just got emacspeak installed into intimate... |
| 22:08:17 | jg | tell me again what being compatible with debian is buying us, as, opposed, for example, the files used by both KDE and Gnome for app definitions? |
| 22:08:28 | Tangent | tvraman : Of course, I haven't a clue how to set it up or use it... |
| 22:08:53 | gjg | tvraman: sorry, i walked away, going back to see what you said. |
| 22:08:59 | tvraman | wonderful. Once I track down my friend I should be able to get emacspeak on the intimate thing going pretty rapidly --incidentally which emacs dpkg did you install? |
| 22:09:12 | Tangent | tvraman : emacs20 |
| 22:09:16 | cworth | jg: easier porting of all 7489 Debian programs. The KDE/Gnome style would also require new scripts, (so it might as well be Debian I think). |
| 22:09:35 | Tangent | tvraman : I had to make a new perl package to make the dependencies work... but it installs OK now... |
| 22:09:43 | tvraman | tangent --you'll need a tts engine --but if you had one --then emacspeak essentially hooks speech into every corner of emacs. it's what I'm using to jabber away as I work. |
| 22:09:47 | Tangent | tvraman : You'll need a network connection though... |
| 22:09:59 | jg | well, I have to be going home now... |
| 22:10:01 | gjg | tvraman: the helper loads up the glade file, which is XML definition of what widgets to use and where they should be, etc. the helper provides a means of using the widgets. |
| 22:10:03 | tvraman | network for what now? |
| 22:10:06 | gjg | jg: hasta. |
| 22:10:12 | cworth | jg: not that all those programs are useful... but Tangent just sent me about 15 good packages from Intimate that all have the menu support built in for example. |
| 22:10:13 | Tangent | tvraman : Is there a soft speech engine, or are they all hardware based? |
| 22:10:33 | Tangent | cworth : Hardly any of them are _useful_ ;) |
| 22:10:36 | cworth | bye jg |
| 22:10:46 | tvraman | there are software TTS engines --all commercial --the open source ones are not good enough for real use. |
| 22:10:57 | cworth | Tangent: well, xstroke is in the mix. ;) |
| 22:11:17 | Tangent | cworth : I said _hardly any_ :) |
| 22:11:39 | cworth | Tangent: :) |
| 22:12:34 | Tangent | cworth : Actually, I discovered something slightly wrong with some of those packages... I forgot the postrm script (which is identical to postinst) |
| 22:12:49 | Tangent | cworth : I forgot on the earlier ones.. .I started putting it in when I remembered. |
| 22:12:54 | cworth | Tangent: ah, for menus that's right. |
| 22:12:54 | tvraman | tangent --you forgot me? --you said I needed the network --to do what? |
| 22:13:19 | Tangent | tvraman : To install emacspeak |
| 22:13:37 | cworth | Tangent: OK, I'll check them out. |
| 22:13:39 | Tangent | tvraman : It'd be virtually impossible to get it working without the packaging system |
| 22:13:45 | tvraman | why did you need the network to install emacspeak? IN my case I'd install the latest tarball out of my cvs bundle -- |
| 22:14:07 | Tangent | tvraman : It took me this long with a USB connection (though I did have to fix a package or two first) |
| 22:14:35 | Tangent | tvraman : It would probably take days to do it manually |
| 22:14:54 | Tangent | tvraman : PPP is sufficient though :) |
| 22:14:56 | tvraman | tangent --I assume you're refering to package dependencies etc --guess you're right--on the other hand--given that I have a 1gb microdrive, I'd basically grab a lot of the debian packages and throw them on there. |
| 22:15:08 | gjg | goes home |
| 22:15:23 | tvraman | bye gjg -- |
| 22:16:20 | Tangent | tvraman : Yep... but it's getting the right ones that's the problem.. There's many gigabytes to choose from |
| 22:19:20 | tvraman | tangent --I understand. I have a secondary problem now that I think of it my ipaq has only one pcmcia slot --so I'll need to do it over usb or ppp. |
| 22:19:44 | tvraman | tangent --any possibility of telling the ipaq/intimate to mount a cd and install from it? |
| 22:20:11 | Tangent | tvraman : Not until the dual pcmcia sleeves are available |
| 22:23:06 | nlrAFK | btw, what is a good terminal emu in slackware? aside the evil minicom.. |
| 22:23:34 | nlrAFK | root |
| 22:23:40 | tvraman | try kermit --though gnu purists may kill me for saying so -- |
| 22:23:55 | nlrAFK | chrz |
| 23:21:39 | icant | gjg: sorry for the delay, but yes, on an ipaq 3670....BBrox mentioned intimate? i dont know what that is... |
| 23:21:58 | icant | dammit, gjg left... |
| 23:22:04 | icant | im having some library problems when blackbox tries to start on bootup---- blackbox: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libstdc++-libc6.2-2.so.3: undefined symbol: __ti3ios |
| 23:22:22 | icant | umm...on an ipaq 3670... |