| 01:50:20 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hi |
| 03:00:43 | esalazar | hi. |
| 03:01:06 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hi |
| 03:01:13 | esalazar | Is setting ipkg path to unstable a good idea at this particular time? I mean, is familiar unstable very unstable right now? |
| 03:01:37 | esalazar | Or are there lots of cool new things that would make it worth it? |
| 03:02:15 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | i had some problems, but i believe they were self-made |
| 03:02:37 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | (deleted/overwrote /etc/profile, not a good idea) |
| 03:02:57 | esalazar | yeah |
| 03:03:32 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | if i wouldn't download intimate right now, i would get the new ipkg-0.9 and pull single packages from unstable |
| 03:04:08 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | not sure if ipkg-0.9 still has problems with dependencies |
| 04:03:53 | esalazar | what is the familiar base package? do I already have that from installing task-familiar-bootstrap? |
| 04:05:20 | dneuer | This package is a bit of a catch-all for files that need to be |
| 04:05:20 | dneuer | installed with familiar, (I made this package from everything that |
| 04:05:21 | dneuer | was still left over after I split off the rest of the files from |
| 04:05:21 | dneuer | familiar v0.4 bleeding into their own packages) . Much of what it is |
| 04:05:21 | dneuer | here is simply emty directories that must exist. Also, there are |
| 04:05:21 | dneuer | some files here which may be created by scripts in Debian that we |
| 04:05:23 | dneuer | are not yet runnging. There are probably several files here that |
| 04:05:25 | dneuer | should move to other packages. |
| 04:05:56 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | AFAIK no. bootstrap is just bootstrap |
| 04:05:58 | dneuer | esalazer: from the package info |
| 04:08:10 | esalazar | So, If I had just dont bootstrap, and am installing everything else from unstable, then I should do the familiar-base? |
| 04:08:25 | esalazar | .ipk? |
| 04:10:02 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | i would just get the big familiar package, then get the new ipkg, then point to unstable, then ipkg update, then ipkg upgrade |
| 04:10:14 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | or ipkg dist-upgrade |
| 04:12:27 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | well, familiar-base is just a small package which you can fetch with ipkg install familiar-base |
| 04:12:58 | esalazar | dist-upgrade? What I did was this: installed the bootstrap, then immediately edited my ipkg.conf to point at unstable, then ipkg update, ipkg upgrade. |
| 04:13:14 | esalazar | what exactly is the difference between that and ipkg dist-upgrade? |
| 04:14:05 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hmm, at least in debian's dpkg, it won't de-install already installed packages just to satisfy dependencies |
| 04:14:17 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | and probably something else differently |
| 04:14:35 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | IIRC |
| 04:16:11 | esalazar | and ipkg actually has a dist-upgrade option? |
| 04:16:43 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | oh. hmm. might not :) |
| 04:16:44 | esalazar | it isn't listed in the command help as an option. |
| 04:17:13 | esalazar | . |
| 04:17:31 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | maybe it is in ipkg-0.9. the help might also be wrong, why don't you try it? |
| 04:18:58 | esalazar | Do you know anything about pcmcia -> isa adaptors? I'm trying to get two working at the same time with no luck at all. |
| 04:20:39 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | sorry, no. interrupt conflicts? |
| 04:22:32 | esalazar | Nothing, no errors of any kind. cardctl even claims to have initialized the adaptor but putting a card in either slot does nothing. No errors and doesn't work. |
| 04:23:19 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hmm, no idea... |
| 04:29:43 | jacques | hi keithp |
| 04:29:48 | jacques | what's new? |
| 04:29:52 | jacques | new ion? |
| 04:29:58 | keithp | Good morning; I'm building a kernel for a 3150. |
| 04:30:44 | jacques | 2.4.6? |
| 04:31:01 | keithp | cvs update -d . -- I think it's 2.4.6. |
| 04:31:19 | jacques | rmk2-np1-hh? |
| 04:31:31 | dneuer | hi keithp |
| 04:31:44 | jacques | ive spent the last 5 days trying to build a xtoolchain that works |
| 04:31:54 | jacques | I'm starting to get discouraged |
| 04:32:04 | keithp | Hmm. Nope, says 2.4.4-rmk3-np1. That's no good. Are the 2.4.6 bits somewhere other than handhelds.org:/cvs? |
| 04:32:17 | dneuer | keithp: 'K2_4_6_rmk1_np2_mono1' |
| 04:32:37 | jacques | hmg, HEAD tag should be 2.4.6 |
| 04:32:38 | keithp | jacques: I just use the /skiff toolchain for X. dneuer: tnx, I'll check out again... |
| 04:32:59 | jacques | keithp: yeah, I have used skiff and beta, they work fine. |
| 04:33:21 | jacques | keithp: I want to build one that uses more recent glibc and binutils - to more closely match debian unstable |
| 04:33:29 | dneuer | keithp: that uses the old framebuffer, btw; I still can't quite figure out why the new one doesn't work |
| 04:33:31 | esalazar | Is there supposed to be some way to automatically generate a reasonable blackbox menu? I've had this work before but my last couple of reinstalls (I've been experimenting) I end up with totally worthless menus and have to make one myself. |
| 04:33:43 | jacques | keithp: but I keep getting an internal compiler error on a particular file in libX11 |
| 04:34:17 | esalazar | /usr/bin/update-menus: /etc/menu-methods/blackbox: not found |
| 04:34:24 | jacques | keithp: I've tried 3 diff binutils, 5 diff compilers - same error on same file |
| 04:34:27 | esalazar | That error message looks relevant... |
| 04:34:47 | keithp | jacques: you may need to disable optimization for that file. There have been compiler problems in a couple of places in the past, looks like you hit something new though. |
| 04:35:10 | jacques | keithp: lcGeneric.c sound familiar? |
| 04:35:25 | jacques | lcGeneric.c: In function `read_charset_define': |
| 04:35:25 | jacques | lcGeneric.c:536: internal error--unrecognizable insn: |
| 04:35:25 | jacques | (insn 1708 1705 181 (set (reg:QI 12 ip) |
| 04:35:25 | jacques | (mem:QI (plus:SI (reg:SI 12 ip) |
| 04:35:26 | jacques | (const_int -336 [0xfffffffffffffeb0])) 0)) -1 (nil) |
| 04:35:26 | jacques | (nil)) |
| 04:35:28 | jacques | make[4]: *** [lcGeneric.o] Error 1 |
| 04:36:09 | keithp | jacques: it's an ugly looking function. Did you try with -O0? |
| 04:36:12 | jacques | same exact error on both my x86->arm and alpha->arm toolchains |
| 04:36:28 | jacques | keithp: never thought about that - I'll try it now |
| 04:36:58 | jacques | WOW that worked! |
| 04:37:07 | jacques | dances a little jig. |
| 04:38:00 | keithp | please whack the Imakefile -- look in ../Xt/Imakefile for ItsyCompilerBug |
| 04:38:34 | jacques | heh, -O1 works too |
| 04:38:41 | keithp | esalazar: is /etc/menu-methods/blackbox executable? |
| 04:38:58 | dneuer | keithp: ItsyCompilerBug triggers -O0? |
| 04:39:20 | jacques | keithp: OK I found that label in that file - now what? |
| 04:39:25 | keithp | jacques: Use whatever level you like, ItsyCompilerBug is just a test that Xt/Imakefile uses to compile things differently. |
| 04:39:43 | jacques | I see this: |
| 04:39:45 | jacques | #if ItsyCompilerBug |
| 04:39:46 | jacques | SpecialCLibObjectRule(PassivGrab,$(_NOOP_),-O0) |
| 04:39:46 | jacques | #endif |
| 04:39:54 | esalazar | keithp: yes |
| 04:39:59 | keithp | Add a SpecialCLibOBjectRule(lcGeneric,$(_NOOP_),-O0) inside #if ItsyCompileBug |
| 04:40:07 | jacques | ooooh, aaaah |
| 04:40:19 | keithp | But stick it in X11/Imakefile, of course. |
| 04:40:32 | esalazar | That is strange isn't it? I also have /usr/X11R6/bin/blackbox |
| 04:40:48 | keithp | dneuer: any magic config options I should know about? |
| 04:41:14 | jacques | coolcool |
| 04:41:19 | keithp | esalazar: the blackbox in /etc/menu-methods is a script to take generic menu descriptions and convert them to blackbox specific ones. ion has a script too. |
| 04:41:34 | dneuer | keithp: use linux/kernel/arch/arm/def-configs/h3100-familiar |
| 04:42:01 | dneuer | keithp: did you get time to look at/apply my patch? |
| 04:42:17 | keithp | dneuer: check. Still waiting for CVS to give me a source tree. Does cvsup work yet? |
| 04:42:34 | keithp | dneuer: your patch (actually, completely different, but fixes the same problem) is already inXFree86 CVS |
| 04:43:11 | dneuer | keithp: cool |
| 04:43:22 | esalazar | keithp: hmm. I trying to understand that. What generic menu descriptions? update-menus said file not found, but it is there. Should I just run it? |
| 04:43:41 | keithp | dneuer: I've got Render working as well, should have rotation in a day or so. |
| 04:43:58 | keithp | esalazar: it's probably not executable; try 'chmod +x blackbox' and then ./blackbox |
| 04:44:16 | keithp | esalazar: it's just telling you to switch to ion anyway :-) |
| 04:44:29 | esalazar | ls -l /etc/menu-methods/blackbox |
| 04:44:29 | esalazar | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1403 Jun 27 2001 /etc/menu-methods/blackbox |
| 04:44:30 | dneuer | keithp: cool; so if I were to build X right now from fresh CVS, it should work on mono iPAQs except perhaps the rotate code? |
| 04:44:57 | esalazar | keithp: part of what is confusing me is this: what is ion? |
| 04:45:05 | keithp | dneuer: "should". I'll know in an hour or so after I build a kernel, flash a new kernel and root, boot and try the X server. |
| 04:45:30 | dneuer | keithp: cool, well, I'll be here; let me know as well |
| 04:45:35 | keithp | esalazar: ion is another window manager; works a bit better on the tiny screen. cworth and I hacked it to death during Usenix. |
| 04:45:44 | dneuer | keithp: I'll start grabbing cvs right now |
| 04:45:49 | jacques | keithp: I am anxious to try the new ion |
| 04:45:58 | jacques | keithp: is it in cvs? |
| 04:46:06 | keithp | dneuer: you should get cvsup running; it'd only take you a couple of minutes that way... |
| 04:46:21 | dneuer | jaques: the ion in familiar unstable is pretty cool |
| 04:46:45 | jacques | cvsup rocks! |
| 04:47:02 | dneuer | keithp: as opposed to cvs -z 3 update, you mean? |
| 04:47:08 | keithp | dneuer: yup, that's the one carl and I hacked. Does it work on the 3150? It doesn't have any core text code left in it... |
| 04:47:18 | jacques | dneuer: I want the absolute latest ion that keith and cworth hacked :-) |
| 04:47:38 | keithp | jacques: you can cvsup that from my repository (http://keithp.com has instructions). |
| 04:47:45 | dneuer | keithp: it seems to work, I'm no Ion expert |
| 04:47:47 | jacques | keithp: thanks again! |
| 04:48:19 | keithp | dneuer: I've just never tested it to make sure text appears on non-Render X servers, nor does it look like I'll get a chance on the 3150, it's got Render now... |
| 04:50:21 | dneuer | keithp: when did you add xrender? |
| 04:50:50 | keithp | A few hours ago. Finally got around to handling non-TrueColor displays. |
| 04:51:12 | jacques | dneuer: yeah, don't you keep up with the times :-D |
| 04:51:25 | keithp | Hey, it's in CVS, you *could* have checked it out :-) |
| 04:51:42 | dneuer | keithp: In that case, I can tell you, because I grabbed the latest Ion last night, and I've been using my same patched X server since I sent you the patch a couple of weeks ago |
| 04:52:24 | keithp | Yeah, I'm mostly just bragging though -- Xft is pretty good about running on ancient non-Render X servers, so I wasn't really worried. |
| 04:52:42 | dneuer | has been single mindedly focussed on getting overall environment workin on 31xx's |
| 04:53:44 | keithp | At $200, it's pretty hard to beat it. Needs more memory though. |
| 04:53:48 | dneuer | keithp: did you see my comment about the rotate code that I mailed you? |
| 04:54:00 | jacques | yeah, nothing can touch it at $200 |
| 04:54:18 | keithp | dneuer: yeah, but I'm still confused -- the server should only work in landscape mode, portrait should be pretty messed up. |
| 04:54:39 | dneuer | keithp: ah, I've only tried it in landscape |
| 04:54:48 | keithp | Then you haven't tried rotation... |
| 04:54:58 | dneuer | keithp: why would portrait be screwed up, though? |
| 04:55:26 | keithp | The "native" orientation of the frame buffer is landscape; portrait mode is only possible through rotation. Weird, huh? |
| 04:55:51 | dneuer | keithp: it grabs the pixels one 'CARD8' at a time across a horizontal row, then move down one row, right? |
| 04:56:39 | keithp | Yeah, so portrait mode should have pairs of pixels rotated, not individual pixels. It should look pretty strange. You can give it a try, just 'xrandr -o right' and see what you get... |
| 04:57:20 | dneuer | keithp: ahh, I see. It rotates as it goes, rather than rotating a whole screen? |
| 04:57:53 | keithp | Well, the rotation code sits behind a shadow frame buffer, so it's rotating areas of the screen that change. That's a bit faster and not much harder. |
| 04:59:13 | dneuer | keithp: I don't know if it's germane to the discussion, but while running x under the debugger, just stating it up, it does call the rotation code once (the 270 degree version), so it would seem that it *is* being rotated |
| 05:00:49 | dneuer | keithp: could be because I've been starting up with 'Xfbdev -screen 240x320' |
| 05:00:58 | keithp | dneuer: well, it "can't" work, correctly in it's current state. It may be that the root weave comes out OK with this weird transformation, but that'd be a happy coincidence. "real" rotation code isn't hard, just isn't done yet. It'll hit CVS tomorrow sometime. |
| 05:01:41 | keithp | dneuer: I think Xfbdev ignores the resolutions you pass now, but your version might still look at the command line to select rotation. The current mechanism is Xfbdev -screen 320x240@270 |
| 05:05:33 | dneuer | keithp: well, let me know how far you get, because I'm trying to start packaging things up for 31xx users |
| 05:06:29 | keithp | I know -- jg mentioned that when he put the 3150 in the mail for me. I should have rotation running some time tomorrow; I still don't have the machine booting as I'm waiting for the kernel sources to download... |
| 05:07:03 | keithp | Do I need a custom jffs image? |
| 05:07:08 | dneuer | keithp: I can get you a pre-built kernel right now, if you want |
| 05:07:21 | keithp | That might be a good idea; one less variable in the mix. |
| 05:07:59 | dneuer | keithp: the root image situationis a little bit more difficult, as I cobbled my own custom one together |
| 05:08:37 | dneuer | keithp: but since I'm working on that for someone else now anyway, I guess I can work on that too |
| 05:08:39 | keithp | Will task-bootstrap.jffs2 from 0.4 work? |
| 05:09:10 | keithp | Oh, of course not -- wrong kernel modules. |
| 05:09:35 | dneuer | keithp: just to get you the basics, yes, but you'll need different modules; I don't know if task-bootstrap has lrzsz in it, either |
| 05:10:42 | keithp | Without the modules, I can't get ethernet running, without ethernet, I can't download new modules. I don't need anything *useful*, just something that will let me start an X server. |
| 05:11:41 | keithp | I've got a kernel building finally, if you can point me at a .jffs, I'll be in business. |
| 05:12:56 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hi keithp: would you consider tap+hold (like wince) a property of X or the WM? regular apps could benefit from that functionality... |
| 05:14:14 | keithp | cmarqu[XXX1302]: cworth and I have been discussing how to get gestures of all kinds working; that'll change how applications interact with the stylus a lot. I think X should focus on reporting physical events and leave interpretation to external clients. |
| 05:15:12 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: so it would be a PDA-specialized WM? |
| 05:15:39 | keithp | Not a WM, but a separate gesture recognition app -- we've already got xstroke stealing |
| 05:16:26 | keithp | all of your mouse events, that app needs to do all of the gestures in the system. |
| 05:16:55 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | ah, yeah. still have to play with that. |
| 05:18:00 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | dreams of running emacs with M-x replaced by an easy stroke |
| 05:18:00 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: thx |
| 05:23:31 | jacques | ok guys, I'm heading home - I'll be on from there |
| 05:58:05 | esalazar | what are gtk-menu and menu-tiny? Will installing either fix the fact that my blackbox menus are totally out of whack? |
| 05:58:38 | keithp | menu-tiny is the system that auto-builds menus for you. You might want it. |
| 06:02:01 | esalazar | libgpmg1 ? Is this the beginning things like right mouse click emulation? |
| 06:13:25 | esalazar | menu-tiny did create menus for me but also deleted a bunch of stuff that I liked :< |
| 06:13:51 | esalazar | Is there like a menu.local where I can put in my own definitions that menu-tiny won't overwrite? |
| 06:33:21 | keithp | You should build menu files for your own packages; that way blackbox and ion would both get menus. They're not hard to do. |
| 06:39:16 | esalazar | keithp: how do you build menu files? Not all the apps I have installed are in my menu. Does that meant that some developers did do a menu file and others not with the .ipk they distributed? |
| 06:40:45 | keithp | You can look at the existing menu files; cworth walked me through it once, but that's paged out now. New packages should come with menu instructions, but older ones didn't. You can hand-add menu files if you like, of course it's polite to send those back to the package maintainer. |
| 06:41:50 | esalazar | Where are the existing ones? |
| 06:41:53 | keithp | umm. Don't recall, and my ipaq is getting it's brains replaced. /usr/lib/menus? |
| 06:43:03 | keithp | Ah, /usr/lib/menu |
| 06:47:02 | esalazar | icons? |
| 06:47:18 | keithp | I don't know; ion doesn't display them yet in any case. |
| 06:47:35 | esalazar | neither does blackbox, but that is cool I guess when it is supported. |
| 06:48:16 | keithp | Any idea why my 3150 won't find the filesystem I stuck into flash? Says Erase block at 0x00000000 is not formatted. |
| 06:52:02 | keithp | Oh, yeah. root=/dev/mtdblock3, not /dev/mtdblock/3. No devfs in this kernel. |
| 06:52:29 | esalazar | no. sorry. |
| 06:52:49 | esalazar | Do I have to run anything to get my menus to update? |
| 06:52:49 | keithp | It's booted now. Wrong root parameter. Only reflashed three times. |
| 06:53:02 | esalazar | after adding a new menu file? |
| 06:54:10 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: is it normal that the joypad works like in portrait even if i am in landscape? |
| 06:54:37 | keithp | It's entirely up to the UI to reconfigure the keyboard; we just don't have a UI yet. Feel free to write one :-) |
| 06:55:11 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: uuuuh... i just promised Tangent things already... :) |
| 07:00:00 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | how do i move big apps that have no wm decorations visible? (press meta when the wm understands it, but on a pda?) |
| 07:00:19 | keithp | One of the buttons is meta; the 'menu' one, I think. |
| 07:00:48 | esalazar | anyone using xstella? It seems like the keyboard isn't mapped right to fire. |
| 07:01:33 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: i currently run xstroke, how do i disable that? |
| 07:02:08 | keithp | xstroke has a button that turns it on/off; do you want to switch recognizers? |
| 07:02:50 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | well, a the moment i just want to move that window, and xstroke doesn't let me |
| 07:03:06 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | ah, got it! |
| 07:03:32 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | i see the button, i was wondering what it did already :) |
| 07:09:40 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hda: lost interrupt. does that sound familiar? (no pun intended) |
| 07:26:43 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: could one of the iPAQ buttons act as [TAB |
| 07:26:48 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | ]? |
| 07:27:34 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: and is fstroke/xstroke in CVS somewhere? |
| 07:37:26 | keithp | cworth is doing xstroke; I don't know where the CVS lives, it might well be on my machine (http://keithp.com) |
| 07:37:48 | keithp | I see that carl updated some xstroke files there a week or so ago. |
| 07:38:43 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | keithp: will check, thanks |
| 07:57:43 | RoMoPAQ | hi |
| 14:23:55 | dneuer | hey a7r |
| 14:35:00 | | keithp was last seen on #ipaq 6 hours, 56 minutes and 38 seconds ago, saying: No, just suffering with a 3150. The display is terrible [Thu Jul 19 08:38:22 2001] |
| 14:35:00 | dneuer | ibot: seen keithp? |
| 15:26:35 | mallum | kiethp: hi |
| 15:26:57 | mallum | kirma: got a coupla questions to ask you about your ion implementation |
| 15:27:09 | mallum | s/kirma/kiethp/ |
| 15:27:20 | mallum | kiethp: specifically the dock |
| 15:46:06 | | jamey was last seen on #handhelds.org 1 hours, 18 minutes and 54 seconds ago, saying: I didn't get the patch yet [Thu Jul 19 15:27:12 2001] |
| 15:46:06 | dneuer | ibot: seen jamey? |
| 15:58:11 | mallum | keithp: hi |
| 16:05:46 | dneuer | slaps keithp around a bit with a large trout |
| 16:06:12 | dneuer | keithp: you here? |
| 16:07:40 | mallum | dneuer: your trout must be inpieces by now |
| 16:08:06 | dneuer | mallum: yes, it's getting pretty ragged |
| 16:08:42 | dneuer | mallum: what's up w/ people keeping their clients connected (and having them auto-reconnect) forever? |
| 16:09:33 | dneuer | mallum: xkbd is nice; are there docs explaining how to set up config? |
| 16:10:59 | mallum | dneuer: thanks: only whats in the the actual config file at the moment ;( |
| 16:11:23 | mallum | dneuer: the format of that file is a bit crap at the moment |
| 16:11:44 | dneuer | mallum: a bit crap? are you British? |
| 16:11:47 | mallum | dneuer: yes |
| 16:11:58 | mallum | dneuer: xkbd is due for an overhaul |
| 16:12:20 | dneuer | mallum: well, it's small and works, which is great |
| 16:12:36 | dneuer | mallum: is there a way to to function keys & stuff? |
| 16:12:44 | mallum | dneuer: yeah. |
| 16:12:55 | mallum | dneuer: the config file is split into 4 columns |
| 16:13:01 | dneuer | mallum: and arrow keys |
| 16:13:36 | mallum | dneuer: what to display 'normally' , what to display 'shifted' , the X name for unshifted key, the X name for shifted key |
| 16:13:37 | dneuer | doesn't have his iPAQ w/ him at work |
| 16:14:05 | mallum | so if you want an arroy key you;d put something like.... |
| 16:14:32 | mallum | <- <- XnameForLeftArrow XnameForLeftArrow in |
| 16:14:57 | mallum | the names X uses for keys are in some think like /usr/include/x11/keysym.h |
| 16:15:17 | mallum | I want to make that file xml |
| 16:15:23 | mallum | if I can find a tiny parser |
| 16:16:29 | mallum | dneuer: you got the grey scale ipaq working ? |
| 16:23:44 | nikos | mallum: We already including some xml libs in Familiar I think. |
| 16:24:10 | mallum | nikos: do you know if exapt is included in the base ? ( libexpat ? ) |
| 16:24:17 | mallum | nikos: I know python uses it |
| 16:24:46 | nikos | mallum: How are you defining base? |
| 16:25:24 | nikos | mallum: I wouldn't expect much in the bootstrap image. |
| 16:26:18 | mallum | nikos: I think its in the Python package |
| 16:26:34 | nikos | mallum: Looks like libglade relies on libxml1, so I think you can rely on its existence to some extent. |
| 16:27:18 | nikos | mallum: And also libxmltok1 |
| 16:27:49 | nikos | mallum: They are only about 160KB together. |
| 16:28:08 | nikos | mallum: I'm not XML expert, but I'm inclined to think it may be overkill for this situation. |
| 16:28:27 | mallum | nikos: thing is I really want x to be the only depentcy for xkbd |
| 16:28:46 | mallum | nikos: I'll maybe have to write a tiny simple parser |
| 16:29:03 | dneuer | mallum: I mostly got the 31xx working |
| 16:29:27 | nikos | mallum: I would think you own parser makes sense, since you have full control over the situation. |
| 16:29:57 | mallum | dneuer: well done, respect ! |
| 16:30:24 | dneuer | mallum: tnx. New framebuffer doesn't work on it yet, though, still stuck w/ the old one |
| 16:31:43 | mallum | thinks about porting http://www.jeremie.com/Dev/XML/xparse.js |
| 16:32:42 | nikos | mallum: X does have its own configuration file stuff I think. You should just make use of it. |
| 16:34:36 | mallum | nikos: hmm, yes I'll have to look into that. the keyboard config would work real nice in an xml-ish format though |
| 16:58:29 | RoMo | hi |
| 17:00:59 | dneuer | and hi |
| 17:27:11 | mutex-work | i can't get packets back from handhelds.org... |
| 17:27:36 | jacques | he neither |
| 17:27:42 | jacques | me neither |
| 17:27:53 | jacques | hmmm, they just started coming back |
| 17:28:05 | jacques | getting high packet loss |
| 17:29:28 | mutex-work | hmmm |
| 17:29:28 | nikos | core-gw2.pa-x.dec.com (204.123.1.2) is having trouble it appears. |
| 17:29:31 | mutex-work | still none for me |
| 17:29:51 | jacques | i got the site to dl |
| 17:30:04 | jacques | 35% PL |
| 17:31:44 | nikos | jacques: You must follow a different route, I can't get anything through either. |
| 17:31:53 | jacques | nikos: :-( |
| 17:32:11 | nikos | 15 packets transmitted, 1 packets received, |
| 17:32:18 | nikos | OK, I did get a litte through. ;) |
| 17:32:24 | nikos | s/litte/little/ |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | penguin% mtr --report handhelds.org |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | HOST LOSS RCVD SENT BEST AVG WORST |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | router.activebuddy.com 0% 16 16 0.88 1.17 2.40 |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | 64.209.188.110 0% 16 16 3.68 4.22 5.83 |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | 192.168.201.254 0% 16 16 6.21 7.71 18.43 |
| 17:32:58 | jacques | 64.209.188.1 0% 16 16 5.34 6.90 18.62 |
| 17:32:59 | jacques | 64.15.192.81 0% 16 16 5.25 9.01 20.97 |
| 17:33:02 | jacques | 64.15.192.34 0% 16 16 5.21 7.29 23.09 |
| 17:33:04 | jacques | bbr02-p6-0.sntc03.exodus.net 0% 16 16 5.23 6.54 10.94 |
| 17:33:06 | jacques | bbr01-g3-0.sntc03.exodus.net 0% 16 16 5.18 5.44 6.43 |
| 17:33:08 | jacques | ibr01-p3-2.paix01.exodus.net 0% 16 16 6.47 7.08 8.42 |
| 17:33:10 | jacques | paix-gw2.pa-x.dec.com 0% 16 16 6.45 7.42 10.38 |
| 17:33:11 | jacques | core-gw2.pa-x.dec.com 25% 12 16 29.17 33.58 44.13 |
| 17:33:14 | jacques | h0.handhelds.org 38% 10 16 30.47 33.89 38.76 |
| 17:48:34 | a7r | re.. |
| 18:04:31 | a7r | jg: re.. |
| 18:04:38 | jg | hi. |
| 18:05:14 | dneuer | hi jg |
| 18:05:21 | dneuer | a7r: did we finish our conversation about the 31xx images? |
| 18:05:24 | jg | dneuer: hi. |
| 18:05:40 | jg | dneuer: Keithp' |
| 18:05:53 | jg | dneuer: Keith's working on finishing up the X server. |
| 18:05:56 | dneuer | where is keithp |
| 18:06:08 | jg | Portland, Or |
| 18:06:22 | dneuer | jg: what's he doing there? |
| 18:06:43 | jg | dneuer: that's where he lives... |
| 18:07:04 | dneuer | jg: damn: I was there a little over a week ago |
| 18:07:05 | nikos | LOL |
| 18:07:46 | dneuer | jg: I was just going to send him a kernel to run on his shiny new 3150 last night when my ISP crapped out completely |
| 18:08:00 | jg | There was a kernel on it... |
| 18:08:26 | dneuer | jg: there was? Oh, wait... was it the 2.4.4.demo? |
| 18:08:39 | jg | I don't remember... |
| 18:08:57 | dneuer | jg: K2_4_6_rmk1_np1_mono1 is required |
| 18:09:23 | jg | dneuer: have you gotten Jamey the patches? |
| 18:09:35 | dneuer | make that K2_4_6_rmk1_np2_mono1 |
| 18:09:47 | | keithp was last seen on #ipaq 10 hours, 31 minutes and 25 seconds ago, saying: No, just suffering with a 3150. The display is terrible [Thu Jul 19 08:38:22 2001] |
| 18:09:47 | nikos | ibot: seen keithp |
| 18:09:48 | dneuer | jg: I have commit access |
| 18:09:56 | nikos | Maybe that's the cause of that comment? |
| 18:11:14 | dneuer | nikos: could be |
| 18:21:13 | jg | dneuer: I hope that a different kernel for Mono won't be needed. Please tell me this is true... |
| 18:23:55 | dneuer | jg: a different kernel *will* be needed, in the short term |
| 18:24:04 | jg | dneuer: why? |
| 18:24:47 | dneuer | jg: because, there are oodles of hardware differences between the two, and the work which will make possible runtime differentiation between the two hasn't been done yet |
| 18:24:55 | dneuer | jg: it's on the list |
| 18:25:19 | dneuer | jg: I was ready to try to do it a while ago, but jamey wanted to get LCD working first |
| 18:25:47 | dneuer | jg: so for now, one must specifically compile a color kernel or a monochrome kernel |
| 18:27:02 | a7r | which sucks, but we're going to need to have seperate install trees anyway.. |
| 18:27:22 | dneuer | a7r: because of eraseblock sizes, you mean? |
| 18:27:35 | dneuer | a7r: and RAM size? |
| 18:27:43 | a7r | dneuer: yup, and it makes sense, since the ``complete'' images are going to be different, among other things. |
| 18:30:14 | dneuer | jg: are you stunned speechless? |
| 18:31:03 | jg | dneuer: No, two people wandered into my office.... |
| 18:31:25 | a7r | deneur: he's AFK getting on the plane to come beat you with a wet noodle. |
| 18:31:41 | jg | dneuer: I'd like to see this fixed as soon as we can, because we're going to have more installation screwups the more different paths we have.... |
| 18:32:15 | dneuer | jg: hey, CRL should hire me, then I could work all night *and* day to work on this stuff |
| 18:32:42 | dneuer | apologizes for poor sentence structure |
| 18:32:45 | jg | Would that our budget could.... |
| 18:33:31 | dneuer | jg: could you send my managers a note: "Compaq would really appreciate it if Dave could be allowed to develop for iPAQ on company time ..." |
| 18:33:42 | dneuer | jg: you could sign it "Dr. Gettys" |
| 18:33:58 | dneuer | jg: say it was "medically necessary" |
| 18:34:05 | jg | dneuer: I presume you are joking... And I don't have a PHD... |
| 18:34:20 | dneuer | jg: after all, I am a kernel junkie thanks to you guys ... |
| 18:34:28 | dneuer | jg: they don't know that |
| 18:34:47 | jg | dneuer: who do you work for? |
| 18:34:52 | dneuer | is of course, just kidding |
| 18:34:59 | dneuer | jg: eflatbed.com |
| 18:35:10 | dneuer | jg: or eflatbread.com, I can never remember which |
| 18:35:23 | a7r | mmm.. flatbread |
| 18:36:27 | jg | a .com, eh? |
| 18:36:50 | jg | one of these wonderful companies that stopped buying our products last year, causing us pain... :-) |
| 18:38:51 | bworth | dneuer: where do you live? |
| 18:39:50 | dneuer | jg: lots of those out there |
| 18:39:58 | dneuer | jg: only one? |
| 18:40:14 | dneuer | bworth: I live in Pittsburgh, PA |
| 18:40:15 | jg | dneuer: only one what? |
| 18:40:31 | dneuer | jg: only one failed dot com stopped buying your products? |
| 18:40:55 | bworth | djeuer: hello neighbor - i'm in ohio, but just over the PA line (lisbon) |
| 18:41:02 | dneuer | wishes his dot com would fail |
| 18:41:19 | dneuer | bworth: how far away from Rochester PA is that? |
| 18:41:26 | jg | dneuer: Lots of .com's stopped bying computers, not just failed ones... |
| 18:42:09 | dneuer | jg: I know, bad time for hw makers |
| 18:42:10 | bworth | djeuer: not sure - only 40 minutes or so from pittsburgh |
| 18:42:44 | dneuer | bworth: give me an address in Lisbon (i.e. 1 Main st, but a real one) |
| 18:43:11 | bworth | 10076 elkton rd |
| 18:43:16 | dneuer | jg: it would be easier if I had a color unit too, because then I'd feel less timid about making big, bitsy-wide changes |
| 18:43:52 | bworth | dneuer: 35 miles or so |
| 18:43:55 | jg | dneuer: but then your motivation would drop... |
| 18:45:24 | dneuer | bworth: I currently sit 43 miles from you, which means you're about 70 from Pittsburgh proper |
| 18:45:37 | dneuer | jg: my motivation wouldn't drop at all. I'm obsessed |
| 18:45:56 | dneuer | jg: I'd just have better metrics |
| 18:46:11 | dneuer | jg: plus, I've had a terrible time getting others to test my changes |
| 18:47:20 | jg | The problem is that hacker types want more memory, so typically hold out for the 36xx. Sigh... |
| 18:48:51 | dneuer | jg: well, I have no plans to stop hacking for the 31xx series, as long as I can get the info I need to do so |
| 18:49:08 | dneuer | jg: it'd be nice to have more time to do it though |
| 18:49:15 | jg | I dunno if we have any I could free up... |
| 18:49:37 | dneuer | jg: someone should write a book: getting a job writing free software for dummies |
| 18:50:16 | dneuer | jg: for the record, if CRL wants to bribe me with equipment of any kind, I will gladly respond with hackery |
| 18:50:45 | jg | I'll keep it in mind... I have to spend some time on the hardware for hackers problem... |
| 18:50:59 | dneuer | jg: meaning mercury? |
| 18:51:20 | dneuer | jg: or meaning bribery materials |
| 18:51:32 | dneuer | jg: budgets for bribes |
| 18:52:04 | jg | all of the above.... |
| 18:52:08 | bworth | dneuer: is there anybody else in the Ipaq community in this local area? we should get together sometime. I have a color unit :) |
| 18:52:20 | dneuer | jg: just don't call them bribes, lest the FBI and FEC get the wrong idea... |
| 18:52:39 | jg | "incentives" |
| 18:54:10 | dneuer | bworth: bhima goes to CMU in Pittsburgh. Was making a kernel for him the other night, and my user account wasn't in the ftp group on ftp.handhelds.org; we almost met at Eat n' Park so I could deliver his kernel via floppy. Then he gave me an account on his local machine, and my wife started yelling at me to come to bed (it was 5:00 am) |
| 18:54:45 | bworth | dneuer: oh, you have one of those too, huh? |
| 18:54:58 | dneuer | bworth: an a 4-year-old son |
| 18:55:15 | bworth | dneuer: 3 kids and one on the way |
| 18:55:26 | dneuer | bworth: and a job that's an hour away each way, hence the "no time" situation |
| 18:55:53 | bworth | i know exactly what you mean - lisbon, oh is hardly a high-tech mecca |
| 18:56:32 | dneuer | bworth: well, my company was closer, but they decided to screw us all by moving to nowhere-land |
| 18:56:45 | bworth | prepares to leave the cyber world and re-enter the physical world (time to go home) |
| 18:56:52 | dneuer | is keeping his eyes open for other things |
| 18:57:11 | bworth | dneuer: talk to you later |
| 18:57:20 | dneuer | bworth: yeah, see ya |
| 18:57:36 | dneuer | jg: do you know if keith ever got a kernel to his liking? |
| 18:57:56 | jg | Nope. dunno. |
| 18:58:10 | dneuer | jg: I was going to send him one I built for bhima the night before, but my ISP decided that routing packets wasn't that important |
| 18:58:46 | dneuer | a7r: still here? |
| 19:00:03 | dneuer | well, I feel feverish and dizzy, which is the best time to make an hour drive home |
| 19:00:19 | dneuer | see some or all of you later |
| 19:00:32 | nikos | bye dneuer, drive carefully |
| 19:00:37 | dneuer | always |
| 19:30:39 | mutex-work | is there any place to get just the usbnet patch for the 2.4 kernel ? |
| 19:30:46 | mutex-work | so i can use usbnet with my ipaq ;-) ? |
| 19:33:31 | mutex-work | hmm i'm trying to ssh to somewhere via, my ipaq, and i get "You have no controlling tty. Cannot read passphrase" |
| 19:33:36 | mutex-work | any idea what that means ? |
| 19:33:41 | | usbnet is at http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/How%20do%20I%20setup%20USB%20networking |
| 19:33:41 | nikos | ibot: usbnet |
| 19:33:50 | nikos | mutex-work: There are links there. |
| 19:34:16 | nikos | mutex-work: I don't recognize that error, repeat it for a7r's benefit. |
| 19:34:53 | mutex-work | <mutex-work> hmm i'm trying to ssh to somewhere via, my ipaq, and i get "You have no controlling tty. Cannot read passphrase" |
| 19:35:02 | mutex-work | i also get a simialr message when starting a csh |
| 19:35:17 | mutex-work | thanks nikos |
| 20:00:36 | nikos | is away: Service Call |
| 20:54:33 | | keithp was last seen on #ipaq 13 hours, 16 minutes and 11 seconds ago, saying: No, just suffering with a 3150. The display is terrible [Thu Jul 19 08:38:22 2001] |
| 20:54:33 | mallum | ibot: seen keithp |
| 20:55:47 | nikos | is back |
| 20:56:31 | mallum | hi nikos |
| 20:56:41 | nikos | Hey |
| 21:02:16 | a7r | is away: gone |
| 21:02:59 | mallum | nearly cuaght keithp earlier |
| 21:58:25 | mallum | keithp: ? |
| 21:59:22 | keithp | ack. |
| 21:59:37 | mallum | hi |
| 21:59:52 | keithp | 'lo |
| 21:59:56 | mallum | I've been trying to chat to you all day but you keep disconnecting ! |
| 22:00:11 | mallum | keithp: have some questions about your ion implementation |
| 22:00:24 | keithp | My DSL modem is dying -- I think it's overheating so I stuck a giant fan on top to see if that helps. |
| 22:00:59 | mallum | keithp: doh |
| 22:01:10 | mallum | keithp: I wrote a small battery dock app for ion |
| 22:01:13 | keithp | You mean hacks to ion -- carl and I have been pretty brutal. |
| 22:01:24 | keithp | And you want to get it in the title bar? |
| 22:01:25 | mallum | keithp: yeah, ok I was being polite ;) |
| 22:01:42 | mallum | keithp: I've got it in the title bar but theres a couple of problems |
| 22:02:21 | mallum | keithp: Im using the shape extension ( so it looks nice ) but the background of the title bar does not seem to show through |
| 22:02:34 | mallum | keithp: instead I get a black background. |
| 22:02:52 | keithp | Nope; the title bar doesn't paint anything under the dock applications. That should be "easy" to do, I think |
| 22:03:06 | mallum | keithp: the shape stuff seems to work when I run it out of the dock |
| 22:03:40 | keithp | Shape is working just fine, but the background of the frame is black, everything you see is painted by the WM, and it doesn't paint under the dock'ed applications. |
| 22:04:09 | mallum | keithp: also when it initially opens, it seems to not be given enough space |
| 22:04:21 | mallum | keithp: A screen rotation seems to fix this though |
| 22:04:32 | mallum | keithp: the app is not settin any size hints though |
| 22:07:52 | keith | (sorry, DSL went down again and I had to power cycle the modem. Clearly not a temperature problem. |
| 22:08:01 | mallum | keith: If you want to test its at http://mallum.com/miniapm_0.1-1_arm.ipk |
| 22:08:04 | mallum | keith: np |
| 22:08:13 | mallum | keith: its very alpha at the mo |
| 22:09:06 | keith | I'm buried in a mono X server today; but, what you might do is watch your application events to see if it gets ConfigureNotify events when it's mapped to reshape it to fit the dock. I suspect ion is messing them up; compare and contrast with splitting the frame |
| 22:10:25 | mallum | keith: no problem - thanks |
| 22:11:09 | mallum | keith: ALso I was thinking ... do you think it would be a good idea to implement the ion title bar stuff in gtk |
| 22:11:41 | mallum | keith: this would give everything a similar look and feel ( assuming the majority of fam apps will be gtk based ) |
| 22:11:58 | keith | No. The WM should be agnostic towards the toolkit; I'd like to allow a KDE environment as well. |
| 22:12:44 | mallum | keith: ok np. I wasn't sure what direction you wanted to take ion |
| 22:13:30 | keith | Carl and I want to take ion to the trash bin and write something from scratch. ion's internals are stretched right now to handle buttons and dock'd applications, I don't think we can manage many more significant changes. |
| 22:14:06 | mallum | keith: I understand . I think that really is the only true option |
| 22:14:29 | mallum | keith: no wm's have really been purposely designed for a handheld |
| 22:14:48 | mallum | keith: also my thanks for ipatience ! |
| 22:14:55 | mallum | keith: my GF is very happy |
| 22:15:30 | keith | That's our point -- ion is pretty close at this point and will serve to teach us some better ideas. Yeah, patience is pretty popular on the palm machines as well; I think there's about a million people using it by now... |
| 22:15:43 | mallum | keith: but she complained that the cards do not 'spin around' when she completes it |
| 22:15:54 | mallum | does not even know how to play it |
| 22:16:19 | mallum | keith: did you do a palm port too ? |
| 22:16:47 | keith | I stopped when the cards could get dragged around; the palm version notices a finished game and pops up a dialog. Patience was originally a palm app that I wrote; iPatience is a "port" to fltk. |
| 22:17:02 | mallum | aha |
| 22:17:17 | keith | If you want to fix it, the sources are in my CVS server... |
| 22:17:29 | mallum | I thought you'd say that ;) |
| 22:18:00 | keith | And, it looks like the phone company discovered someone hacking Cisco boxes through the web interface; my line should remain up for a while now. |
| 22:18:10 | mallum | Dont really have any c++ exp though ( barely c ) |
| 22:18:41 | keith | I believe ipatience was my first "c++" app -- as it's ported from C, there's not much ++ there (fortunately, c++ rates among my least favorite languages) |
| 22:20:23 | keith | Back to my mono iPaq; I'll ask around and see if anyone has the backlight running; it's pretty hard to see without one. |
| 22:30:18 | mallum | keith: good luck |
| 22:30:31 | keith | tnx; X works, and will rotate soon. |
| 22:30:41 | mallum | cool |
| 22:37:28 | mallum | is away: bedtime for me |