irclog2html for familiar on 2002.04.23

irclog2html for familiar on 2002.04.23 04:46:20 dath Hello, can anyone tell me how to extract the .jffs2 images? I'd like to use them via NFS with my TuxScreen... 04:46:57 Disconnect look for the .tgz version 04:47:20 dath where would I find the .tgz versions? 04:47:51 Disconnect same place as the jffs2 04:49:20 dath doh, how silly of me:-> 04:51:14 dath thanks 05:02:05 dath urf, it hangs trying to start sshd... 05:03:00 dath perhaps I'll try the nossh version... Thanks for the info! 06:51:50 Disconnect is away: sleep.. cya tomorrow.. 08:51:05 bostik hi peopple 11:15:17 bostik can anybody help me ?? 11:15:32 bostik i tryed to install libc6 and i went out of space 11:15:47 bostik now i have no directory in / 11:15:55 bostik any idea ? 12:05:31 _PheniX_ ls 12:05:37 _PheniX_ hi 13:40:25 _PheniX_ hi again 15:19:20 _PheniX_ hi 15:43:35 Disconnect is away: [detached] hacking on laptops 15:54:01 Timmmm soo... Im confused about all these rams and roms in le iPaq... there is a flash rom? and a dram... and a ... blah? help... what goes where... 17:42:33 kergoth Does ipkg/C handle Provides yet? 19:44:59 xsdg How do I install familiar without using serial? (I have Linux running on my iPaq w/ a net connection) 20:34:10 VerxWork anyone in here? 20:34:38 VerxWork I was hoping to talk to some of the familiar maintainers. . . 20:34:38 Disconnect nope 20:34:38 a7r yeah. 20:34:41 VerxWork heh 20:34:43 Disconnect most times its #handhelds.org 20:34:46 a7r VerxWork: hey.. 20:34:56 a7r VerxWork: what do you want to talk about? 20:34:56 VerxWork have any of you looked at the busybox image that sandman made? 20:35:14 VerxWork using it, I did this: 20:35:19 a7r I haven't. 20:35:26 VerxWork Calendar, City Time, Contacts, File Manager, Hancomsheet, HancomWord, IQ Notes, NeoCal, OpieFTP, QT Reader, Terminal, Text Editor, Today, Web Browser (konq), Zic, Appearance, Application Key, Date/Time, Light and Power, Network, Rotation, Security, 20:35:36 VerxWork Cardmon, Battery applet, clock applet, jumpx, keyboard 20:35:41 VerxWork all on my IPAQ 20:35:44 VerxWork in flash 20:35:50 VerxWork and still had 1.5MB free 20:35:53 a7r cool. 20:36:00 VerxWork but it gets even better 20:36:10 VerxWork there is a way to get like another 2MB of free space 20:36:20 VerxWork but it would require a pretty big change 20:36:38 VerxWork so I kindof wanted to come in here and see what you guys think of the future of familiar 20:36:45 VerxWork since I don't know so much about your aims with it 20:37:33 Disconnect is away: [detached] - gentoo! 20:37:40 a7r I think it's cool that people are setting up busybox environments.. I'm not really big on busybox,. familiar won't provide busybox support until someone puts together ipkgs that are granular enough, and can be used in conjunction w/ the rest of the tools provided. 20:38:15 VerxWork a7r: Ok, that helps me understand things 20:39:06 a7r busybox has, and has had, numerous bugs.. for me it isn't useful (because I mainly do development of UNIXy things).. for a standard PDA environment, it's great. 20:39:25 VerxWork so a7r, if every single "program" that busybox provided existed as a seperate ipkg, that would be what you are talking about? 20:39:33 VerxWork the granularity level I mean 20:40:01 a7r I don't know if every program, but at least more than 3 packages... the packages would also have to support the update-alternatives approach to doing things. 20:40:51 VerxWork a7r: Well, the way I see things (not saying it is right, just trying to see what you think of it) is that there are two basic approaches that need to be considered for the arm handheld linux os 20:41:36 VerxWork one that is really really needed (in my opinion) is a pda oriented environment that has linux as its base, and can pack as much pda gui punch as possible onboard through keeping things minimally sized 20:41:47 VerxWork this is the busybox, tinylogin, uclib concept 20:41:59 VerxWork but at the very same time, there needs to be the ability to go the other way 20:42:06 VerxWork to have a laptop in your hand 20:42:22 VerxWork now, familiar + intimate seems very kludgy to me 20:42:31 VerxWork it certainly works, but intimate is VERY stale 20:42:55 VerxWork familiar + X is something I haven't tried yet, but I intend to, and soon 20:43:07 dc_ :D 20:43:13 VerxWork what I am sortof waiting on is the bootloader that lets you boot from CF 20:43:21 VerxWork then I can put familiar + X on CF and try it out 20:44:33 a7r I think we need to look more into package ``flavors''.. to support things like different chip optimizations, and different libc requirements. 20:44:49 VerxWork a7r: Please explain 20:45:02 VerxWork what would these flavours target? 20:45:22 a7r ulibc vs. GNU libc etc. 20:45:31 a7r ARM3 versus ARM4 20:45:45 VerxWork yes, that is a drastic difference (ulibc vs. gnu libc) in terms of supportability 20:45:56 VerxWork a7r: Is there hardware today that has arm4? 20:46:02 VerxWork I mean, can I buy an arm4 handheld? 20:46:11 a7r the iPAQ is an ARM4 handheld. 20:46:13 VerxWork (perhaps I am way out of touch) 20:46:14 VerxWork ok 20:46:17 VerxWork so what is arm3 then? 20:46:22 VerxWork agenda or something? 20:46:22 a7r older ARM chips. 20:46:28 a7r no.. the agenda is a MIPS 20:46:28 dc_ hehe 20:46:31 VerxWork heh 20:46:34 VerxWork ok 20:46:37 dc_ a7r: skiffs? 20:46:43 a7r dc_: they're strongarm too. 20:46:48 VerxWork so are there arm3 handhelds really in use? 20:46:57 a7r no. 20:46:57 VerxWork I mean, I am trying to understand the benefit of having familiar on arm3 20:47:03 VerxWork what is out there that would use it 20:47:11 VerxWork (not saying it doesn't exist, just trying to learn here) 20:47:14 a7r Familiar already runs on ARM3 because Debian runs on ARM3 20:47:21 VerxWork ok 20:47:27 dc_ heh. 20:47:27 a7r none of Debian's builds are optimized for ARM4 20:47:29 VerxWork so the issue is more that we aren't taking full advantage of arm4 20:47:30 VerxWork right 20:47:32 VerxWork ok 20:47:32 a7r yes. 20:47:36 VerxWork that makes a ton more sense to me 20:47:39 VerxWork thanks for taking the time 20:47:41 dc_ a7r: ahhh 20:47:44 a7r I've started optimizing Familiar's packages.. but it's slow going. 20:47:49 dc_ to. 20:47:50 VerxWork I am sure a7r 20:48:08 VerxWork a7r: I am REALLY new to busybox 20:48:12 VerxWork you said you aren't a fan 20:48:18 VerxWork what rubbed you wrong? 20:48:24 VerxWork just the non completeness? 20:48:29 VerxWork or was it more than that 20:48:33 a7r it removes a lot of functionality, and seems to give back a bunch of buggy functionality. 20:48:41 VerxWork ok 20:48:44 a7r I think there are far better ways to save space. 20:48:57 VerxWork I am not denying that, but I haven't seen anything that really got my goat 20:49:12 VerxWork I mean, I miss ctrl-k and ctrl-r in bash 20:49:14 a7r you should try using it from a developer perspective.. 20:49:17 VerxWork but I like having the extra space 20:49:34 VerxWork a7r: I am sure. When you see how limited you are, it must be annoying 20:49:35 a7r it'd be better just to remove all the tools entirely, just have a kernel and your PDA environment. 20:49:44 a7r you don't need busybox. 20:50:11 VerxWork well, to be honest, if opie ran on just a kernel, I would be fine with that as ONE means of running my ipaq 20:50:21 a7r OPIE could be made to do that. 20:50:35 VerxWork I don't want that exclusively, but I do want to have absolutely as much free space as possible for opie apps as I can 20:50:57 VerxWork a7r: Do you have an ipaq? a zaurus? or do you do everything on the skiffs? 20:51:41 dc__ damn it. 20:52:12 a7r VerxWork: 3 iPAQs, a Zaurus, and a Netwinder.. 20:52:33 VerxWork I should read about the netwinder 20:52:39 dc__ watns one 20:52:56 a7r I've also got an Empeg in front of me, that I want to run Familiar on. 20:53:17 VerxWork a7r: Well, when you use an IPAQ 20:53:24 VerxWork and you aren't at home or work 20:53:28 VerxWork how do you use it? 20:53:32 VerxWork I mean, what is plugged in 20:53:40 a7r I have X up, a PCMCIA sleeve, and a wireless card. 20:53:50 VerxWork so you run from flash/ram 20:53:57 VerxWork have a single slot pcmcia sleeve 20:53:58 VerxWork and wireless 20:54:00 VerxWork ? 20:54:43 a7r join #linuxos 20:54:48 a7r Kijiki: werd. 20:55:08 a7r you'd think w/ all that money he could get a nice haircut, and better glasses. 20:55:54 VerxWork so a7r 20:56:04 VerxWork what kind of wireless card do you have? 20:56:06 VerxWork gprs? 20:56:22 VerxWork 802.11? (I assume not since it would be worthless away from home and work) 20:56:35 a7r 802.11b.. I usually only use my handheld when I'm near an AP.. although GPRS would be nice to add 20:56:48 VerxWork ok 20:56:53 VerxWork so I think that gets to the crux of it 20:57:02 VerxWork you don't use your iPAQ in a standalone fashion at all 20:57:15 VerxWork you only use it when you can tap into other, external resources 20:57:29 a7r not really.. I use Mingle, and the other Salamander tools on it. 20:57:30 VerxWork (perhaps only is too strong - s/only/usually only) 20:59:27 VerxWork oh 20:59:28 VerxWork heh 20:59:37 VerxWork a7r is Alexander Guy 20:59:46 VerxWork of Andern Research Labs 20:59:52 VerxWork reads about Salamander 21:03:29 VerxWork a7r: What is POS? 21:03:55 a7r persistent object store 21:04:01 VerxWork ok 21:04:14 VerxWork who all works on salamander? Just you? 21:04:24 a7r myself, and a couple other people.. it's a research prototype right now. 21:04:40 VerxWork ahhh 21:04:45 VerxWork looks very interesting 21:04:56 a7r yeah, I'm happy w/ the concepts. 21:05:05 VerxWork the http://www.andern.org/salamander is a wealth of information. :) 21:05:55 a7r VerxWork: yeah, I had a server outtage, and haven't had a chance to get everything back up. 21:06:04 VerxWork ahhh 21:06:35 a7r the source is in handhelds.org CVS 21:07:09 VerxWork ok 21:07:17 VerxWork are there current screenshots anywhere? 21:07:54 a7r not currently.. I started redesigning the UI, but haven't put any energy into it lately. Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with infobot logs, split per channel and by date, etc.

`04:46:20`	`dath`	`Hello, can anyone tell me how to extract the .jffs2 images? I'd like to use them via NFS with my TuxScreen...`
`04:46:57`	`Disconnect`	`look for the .tgz version`
`04:47:20`	`dath`	`where would I find the .tgz versions?`
`04:47:51`	`Disconnect`	`same place as the jffs2`
`04:49:20`	`dath`	`doh, how silly of me:->`
`04:51:14`	`dath`	`thanks`
`05:02:05`	`dath`	`urf, it hangs trying to start sshd...`
`05:03:00`	`dath`	`perhaps I'll try the nossh version... Thanks for the info!`
`06:51:50`	`Disconnect`	`is away: sleep.. cya tomorrow..`
`08:51:05`	`bostik`	`hi peopple`
`11:15:17`	`bostik`	`can anybody help me ??`
`11:15:32`	`bostik`	`i tryed to install libc6 and i went out of space`
`11:15:47`	`bostik`	`now i have no directory in /`
`11:15:55`	`bostik`	`any idea ?`
`12:05:31`	`_PheniX_`	`ls`
`12:05:37`	`_PheniX_`	`hi`
`13:40:25`	`_PheniX_`	`hi again`
`15:19:20`	`_PheniX_`	`hi`
`15:43:35`	`Disconnect`	`is away: [detached] hacking on laptops`
`15:54:01`	`Timmmm`	`soo... Im confused about all these rams and roms in le iPaq... there is a flash rom? and a dram... and a ... blah? help... what goes where...`
`17:42:33`	`kergoth`	`Does ipkg/C handle Provides yet?`
`19:44:59`	`xsdg`	`How do I install familiar without using serial? (I have Linux running on my iPaq w/ a net connection)`
`20:34:10`	`VerxWork`	`anyone in here?`
`20:34:38`	`VerxWork`	`I was hoping to talk to some of the familiar maintainers. . .`
`20:34:38`	`Disconnect`	`nope`
`20:34:38`	`a7r`	`yeah.`
`20:34:41`	`VerxWork`	`heh`
`20:34:43`	`Disconnect`	`most times its #handhelds.org`
`20:34:46`	`a7r`	`VerxWork: hey..`
`20:34:56`	`a7r`	`VerxWork: what do you want to talk about?`
`20:34:56`	`VerxWork`	`have any of you looked at the busybox image that sandman made?`
`20:35:14`	`VerxWork`	`using it, I did this:`
`20:35:19`	`a7r`	`I haven't.`
`20:35:26`	`VerxWork`	`Calendar, City Time, Contacts, File Manager, Hancomsheet, HancomWord, IQ Notes, NeoCal, OpieFTP, QT Reader, Terminal, Text Editor, Today, Web Browser (konq), Zic, Appearance, Application Key, Date/Time, Light and Power, Network, Rotation, Security,`
`20:35:36`	`VerxWork`	`Cardmon, Battery applet, clock applet, jumpx, keyboard`
`20:35:41`	`VerxWork`	`all on my IPAQ`
`20:35:44`	`VerxWork`	`in flash`
`20:35:50`	`VerxWork`	`and still had 1.5MB free`
`20:35:53`	`a7r`	`cool.`
`20:36:00`	`VerxWork`	`but it gets even better`
`20:36:10`	`VerxWork`	`there is a way to get like another 2MB of free space`
`20:36:20`	`VerxWork`	`but it would require a pretty big change`
`20:36:38`	`VerxWork`	`so I kindof wanted to come in here and see what you guys think of the future of familiar`
`20:36:45`	`VerxWork`	`since I don't know so much about your aims with it`
`20:37:33`	`Disconnect`	`is away: [detached] - gentoo!`
`20:37:40`	`a7r`	`I think it's cool that people are setting up busybox environments.. I'm not really big on busybox,. familiar won't provide busybox support until someone puts together ipkgs that are granular enough, and can be used in conjunction w/ the rest of the tools provided.`
`20:38:15`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Ok, that helps me understand things`
`20:39:06`	`a7r`	`busybox has, and has had, numerous bugs.. for me it isn't useful (because I mainly do development of UNIXy things).. for a standard PDA environment, it's great.`
`20:39:25`	`VerxWork`	`so a7r, if every single "program" that busybox provided existed as a seperate ipkg, that would be what you are talking about?`
`20:39:33`	`VerxWork`	`the granularity level I mean`
`20:40:01`	`a7r`	`I don't know if every program, but at least more than 3 packages... the packages would also have to support the update-alternatives approach to doing things.`
`20:40:51`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Well, the way I see things (not saying it is right, just trying to see what you think of it) is that there are two basic approaches that need to be considered for the arm handheld linux os`
`20:41:36`	`VerxWork`	`one that is really really needed (in my opinion) is a pda oriented environment that has linux as its base, and can pack as much pda gui punch as possible onboard through keeping things minimally sized`
`20:41:47`	`VerxWork`	`this is the busybox, tinylogin, uclib concept`
`20:41:59`	`VerxWork`	`but at the very same time, there needs to be the ability to go the other way`
`20:42:06`	`VerxWork`	`to have a laptop in your hand`
`20:42:22`	`VerxWork`	`now, familiar + intimate seems very kludgy to me`
`20:42:31`	`VerxWork`	`it certainly works, but intimate is VERY stale`
`20:42:55`	`VerxWork`	`familiar + X is something I haven't tried yet, but I intend to, and soon`
`20:43:07`	`dc_`	`:D`
`20:43:13`	`VerxWork`	`what I am sortof waiting on is the bootloader that lets you boot from CF`
`20:43:21`	`VerxWork`	`then I can put familiar + X on CF and try it out`
`20:44:33`	`a7r`	I think we need to look more into package ``flavors''.. to support things like different chip optimizations, and different libc requirements.
`20:44:49`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Please explain`
`20:45:02`	`VerxWork`	`what would these flavours target?`
`20:45:22`	`a7r`	`ulibc vs. GNU libc etc.`
`20:45:31`	`a7r`	`ARM3 versus ARM4`
`20:45:45`	`VerxWork`	`yes, that is a drastic difference (ulibc vs. gnu libc) in terms of supportability`
`20:45:56`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Is there hardware today that has arm4?`
`20:46:02`	`VerxWork`	`I mean, can I buy an arm4 handheld?`
`20:46:11`	`a7r`	`the iPAQ is an ARM4 handheld.`
`20:46:13`	`VerxWork`	`(perhaps I am way out of touch)`
`20:46:14`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:46:17`	`VerxWork`	`so what is arm3 then?`
`20:46:22`	`VerxWork`	`agenda or something?`
`20:46:22`	`a7r`	`older ARM chips.`
`20:46:28`	`a7r`	`no.. the agenda is a MIPS`
`20:46:28`	`dc_`	`hehe`
`20:46:31`	`VerxWork`	`heh`
`20:46:34`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:46:37`	`dc_`	`a7r: skiffs?`
`20:46:43`	`a7r`	`dc_: they're strongarm too.`
`20:46:48`	`VerxWork`	`so are there arm3 handhelds really in use?`
`20:46:57`	`a7r`	`no.`
`20:46:57`	`VerxWork`	`I mean, I am trying to understand the benefit of having familiar on arm3`
`20:47:03`	`VerxWork`	`what is out there that would use it`
`20:47:11`	`VerxWork`	`(not saying it doesn't exist, just trying to learn here)`
`20:47:14`	`a7r`	`Familiar already runs on ARM3 because Debian runs on ARM3`
`20:47:21`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:47:27`	`dc_`	`heh.`
`20:47:27`	`a7r`	`none of Debian's builds are optimized for ARM4`
`20:47:29`	`VerxWork`	`so the issue is more that we aren't taking full advantage of arm4`
`20:47:30`	`VerxWork`	`right`
`20:47:32`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:47:32`	`a7r`	`yes.`
`20:47:36`	`VerxWork`	`that makes a ton more sense to me`
`20:47:39`	`VerxWork`	`thanks for taking the time`
`20:47:41`	`dc_`	`a7r: ahhh`
`20:47:44`	`a7r`	`I've started optimizing Familiar's packages.. but it's slow going.`
`20:47:49`	`dc_`	`to.`
`20:47:50`	`VerxWork`	`I am sure a7r`
`20:48:08`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: I am REALLY new to busybox`
`20:48:12`	`VerxWork`	`you said you aren't a fan`
`20:48:18`	`VerxWork`	`what rubbed you wrong?`
`20:48:24`	`VerxWork`	`just the non completeness?`
`20:48:29`	`VerxWork`	`or was it more than that`
`20:48:33`	`a7r`	`it removes a lot of functionality, and seems to give back a bunch of buggy functionality.`
`20:48:41`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:48:44`	`a7r`	`I think there are far better ways to save space.`
`20:48:57`	`VerxWork`	`I am not denying that, but I haven't seen anything that really got my goat`
`20:49:12`	`VerxWork`	`I mean, I miss ctrl-k and ctrl-r in bash`
`20:49:14`	`a7r`	`you should try using it from a developer perspective..`
`20:49:17`	`VerxWork`	`but I like having the extra space`
`20:49:34`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: I am sure. When you see how limited you are, it must be annoying`
`20:49:35`	`a7r`	`it'd be better just to remove all the tools entirely, just have a kernel and your PDA environment.`
`20:49:44`	`a7r`	`you don't need busybox.`
`20:50:11`	`VerxWork`	`well, to be honest, if opie ran on just a kernel, I would be fine with that as ONE means of running my ipaq`
`20:50:21`	`a7r`	`OPIE could be made to do that.`
`20:50:35`	`VerxWork`	`I don't want that exclusively, but I do want to have absolutely as much free space as possible for opie apps as I can`
`20:50:57`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Do you have an ipaq? a zaurus? or do you do everything on the skiffs?`
`20:51:41`	`dc__`	`damn it.`
`20:52:12`	`a7r`	`VerxWork: 3 iPAQs, a Zaurus, and a Netwinder..`
`20:52:33`	`VerxWork`	`I should read about the netwinder`
`20:52:39`	`dc__`	`watns one`
`20:52:56`	`a7r`	`I've also got an Empeg in front of me, that I want to run Familiar on.`
`20:53:17`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: Well, when you use an IPAQ`
`20:53:24`	`VerxWork`	`and you aren't at home or work`
`20:53:28`	`VerxWork`	`how do you use it?`
`20:53:32`	`VerxWork`	`I mean, what is plugged in`
`20:53:40`	`a7r`	`I have X up, a PCMCIA sleeve, and a wireless card.`
`20:53:50`	`VerxWork`	`so you run from flash/ram`
`20:53:57`	`VerxWork`	`have a single slot pcmcia sleeve`
`20:53:58`	`VerxWork`	`and wireless`
`20:54:00`	`VerxWork`	`?`
`20:54:43`	`a7r`	`join #linuxos`
`20:54:48`	`a7r`	`Kijiki: werd.`
`20:55:08`	`a7r`	`you'd think w/ all that money he could get a nice haircut, and better glasses.`
`20:55:54`	`VerxWork`	`so a7r`
`20:56:04`	`VerxWork`	`what kind of wireless card do you have?`
`20:56:06`	`VerxWork`	`gprs?`
`20:56:22`	`VerxWork`	`802.11? (I assume not since it would be worthless away from home and work)`
`20:56:35`	`a7r`	`802.11b.. I usually only use my handheld when I'm near an AP.. although GPRS would be nice to add`
`20:56:48`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`20:56:53`	`VerxWork`	`so I think that gets to the crux of it`
`20:57:02`	`VerxWork`	`you don't use your iPAQ in a standalone fashion at all`
`20:57:15`	`VerxWork`	`you only use it when you can tap into other, external resources`
`20:57:29`	`a7r`	`not really.. I use Mingle, and the other Salamander tools on it.`
`20:57:30`	`VerxWork`	`(perhaps only is too strong - s/only/usually only)`
`20:59:27`	`VerxWork`	`oh`
`20:59:28`	`VerxWork`	`heh`
`20:59:37`	`VerxWork`	`a7r is Alexander Guy`
`20:59:46`	`VerxWork`	`of Andern Research Labs`
`20:59:52`	`VerxWork`	`reads about Salamander`
`21:03:29`	`VerxWork`	`a7r: What is POS?`
`21:03:55`	`a7r`	`persistent object store`
`21:04:01`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`21:04:14`	`VerxWork`	`who all works on salamander? Just you?`
`21:04:24`	`a7r`	`myself, and a couple other people.. it's a research prototype right now.`
`21:04:40`	`VerxWork`	`ahhh`
`21:04:45`	`VerxWork`	`looks very interesting`
`21:04:56`	`a7r`	`yeah, I'm happy w/ the concepts.`
`21:05:05`	`VerxWork`	`the http://www.andern.org/salamander is a wealth of information. :)`
`21:05:55`	`a7r`	`VerxWork: yeah, I had a server outtage, and haven't had a chance to get everything back up.`
`21:06:04`	`VerxWork`	`ahhh`
`21:06:35`	`a7r`	`the source is in handhelds.org CVS`
`21:07:09`	`VerxWork`	`ok`
`21:07:17`	`VerxWork`	`are there current screenshots anywhere?`
`21:07:54`	`a7r`	`not currently.. I started redesigning the UI, but haven't put any energy into it lately.`