irclog2html for #familiar on 20021122

08:15.13*** join/#familiar ibot (ibot@rikers.org)
08:15.13*** topic/#familiar is Familiar -- Linux on your Handheld -- http://familiar.handhelds.org
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13:15.13XirirxHi
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13:45.30Xirirxhow come familiar will not let me log in as root?
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15:04.53Xirirxanyone here have a wince_image.gz file lying around?
15:05.01Xirirxfor an ipaq 3835
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21:31.00hpaq_newbiehi, can someone point to documentation on CF and filesystems for CF and "flash" - a tutorial would help. i am new to this and dont understand how the boot process of familiar works...thanks.
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21:47.54ipfwoooooo
21:47.59ipflots of people
21:48.01ipfgood night
21:49.23ipfa few questions..
21:49.41ipfim planning to buy a Compaq Pocket PC H3850
21:50.04ipffamiliar supports this machine right?
21:50.40Kerohttp://www.handhelds.org/projects/h3800.html
21:51.00ipf:))
21:51.08ipfthank your bery much
21:51.23ipfanother question..
21:51.33ipfmaybe stupid but..
21:52.03ipfcan i compile a recent kernel on familiar?
21:52.10raduganot 'stupid but'
21:52.16radugaibot: stupid bot
21:52.17raduga: are you smoking crack?
21:52.26ipflol
21:52.26Kero:)
21:52.46radugaipf: familiar base install doesn't have room fo a compiler
21:53.02radugabut if you have CF or more storage space, you should be able to install one
21:53.15KeroOtherwise, you'll have to cross compile kernels, if you really want to.
21:53.29radugaif you have another linux box, cross-compiling for arm target is very easy!
21:53.41ipfhm..
21:53.44ipfi see..
21:53.55ipfnow.. the last question
21:54.10ipfwhat machine should i buy?
21:54.23ipfH3850 is.... good?
21:54.24ipfeheh
21:54.25radugaipf: for familiar?
21:54.29ipfyes
21:54.46radugaipf: i'd suggest Jornada 720, or psion 5mx, but most folk would not agree ;)
21:55.03ipfok....
21:55.31ipfand about internet connection
21:55.39radugahmm.
21:55.47ipfin portugal the internet connections are too deprecated
21:55.50radugaright now, #handhelds.org has more people in it
21:55.52ipfit sucks
21:55.59radugaand they are chattering more, so you may get more response
21:56.00ipfhm.. ok
21:56.20ipfok im sorry
21:56.21ipf:))
21:56.25ipfthanks again
21:56.28radugano problem!
21:56.32radugaits just that this channel is quiet
21:56.39ipfok :)
21:56.46radugaand i'm not an ipaq user, so I will not give you excellent advice on ipaqs
21:57.31radugawhat about ISP are you wondering?
21:57.50ipfKPNQwest ( dial )
21:57.51radugawith a CF or pcmcia sleeve, you can use pretty much any standard modem or ethernet card with an ipaq, though
21:58.02radugaand connect to pretty much any ISP
21:58.10ipfcool
21:58.11ipf:))))
21:58.23radugawithout a sleeve though, the ipaq has no native I/O ports
21:58.26ipfi have an old serial pcmcia card
21:58.35radugaand sleeves make them big and fat and heavy and ugly
21:59.03raduganewer ipaqs (i believe) support bluetooth
21:59.08radugaif you have a bluetooth modem
21:59.15radugaim not sure where linux bluetooth support is
21:59.48ipfno.. its a serial modem
22:00.03radugaoh... you have a serial modem?  and a pcmcia serial card?
22:00.07radugaor a pcmcia serial modem?
22:00.11ipfand ethernet connection sounds good
22:00.21ipfpcmcia serial card
22:00.24ipfand a serial modem
22:00.33radugasounds needlessly complex :/
22:00.46radugayou can get a pcmcia modem for ~30 USD
22:00.46ipfi think its not complex
22:00.51radugaprobably about the same in euros
22:00.57ipfyes
22:01.01ipfbut..
22:01.02radugabut if you're happy...
22:01.05ipfethernet sounds great
22:01.08radugaheh.
22:01.18radugayou'll want a pcmcia sleeve then
22:01.48radugapretty much all devices supported by x86 linux are  supported by armlinux
22:01.54ipfi have to check if ipaq support pc card type 2 for my xircom ethernet card
22:02.01radugaat least, pretty much all pcmcia devices
22:02.20ipfi have a toshiba laptop
22:02.28ipfand both cards are suported
22:02.36radugaHP/compaq may not claim that they support it,
22:02.43radugabecause there may not be any wince drivers for it
22:02.53ipfhm..
22:02.56radugabut if linux supports it on x86, linux should support it on ipaq too
22:03.10ipf:))
22:03.13ipfgreat
22:03.34radugaeven nicer than ethernet though, is wireless
22:03.43radugaif you can get an 802.11b base station
22:04.01radugano sense in having your ipaq be wired down somewhere...
22:04.13ipfi think my boss is not planning to use wireless eheh
22:04.23banshee_had a xircom 10/100 nic and 56k working on my ipaq w/ fam .5.something awhile ago, the xirc2ps_cs is in some other ipk
22:04.38ipfin portugal "all" about network connections are too deprecated
22:04.50radugayou can *probably* get a cheap base station/wlan card for under $200
22:05.02ipf$200 ?
22:05.04ipfoh god
22:05.19ipfmy account is too down
22:05.22ipflol
22:05.33raduga$200 is too much? :(
22:05.33ipfok but
22:05.39ipfno
22:05.44ipfits not too much but..
22:05.50ipfpda + station
22:05.54ipfis too much for me
22:06.05ipfim poor :(
22:06.05radugai think the ipaqs pretty much are $500 or so
22:06.06ipf:P
22:06.10radugai'm sorry for you :(
22:06.43radugamaybe you can talk to one of the HP people in here, they may feel sorry for you and send you one for free
22:06.59ipf$500 is my salary
22:07.13ipfraduga: eheh
22:07.41Kerograb a slightly older model, you'll save $100 or something.
22:08.00ipfi say that im planning to develop a..... game.. which runs on HP PDA
22:08.08radugakero: is there *much* improvement in the xscale ipaqs?
22:08.08ipflol
22:08.15radugaspeed wise?
22:08.26radugaI've heard not so much :/
22:08.38Kerothe compilers are not optimised for xscale, yet.
22:08.42ipfraduga: what is your pda?
22:08.45KeroNeither are M$ compilers, apparently.
22:09.04radugaipf: jornada 720
22:09.09radugaand psion 5mx :)
22:09.19radugaboth are clamshell, with real keyboard
22:09.22ipfand.. your are happy ?
22:09.28radugahm.... almost happy
22:09.36ipfreal keyboard!
22:09.40ipfanother question
22:09.43ipf:))
22:09.49radugapsion is *ideal* form factor for me, but its kinda old and the screen is not so good
22:10.01ipfreal keyboard works without "special support" ?
22:10.05radugaits reflective greyscale, 640x240
22:10.19KeroSeen the new Sharp? clamshell, small, 640x480 or something.
22:10.20ipfi mean..
22:10.28ipfit works like a normal keyboard ?
22:10.41radugaby "real keyboard" i mean, full, standard qwerty layot, you can touch type, if your fingers are small.
22:10.53radugabuilt into the case.
22:11.17ipfhm.. i mean.. an external real keyboard
22:11.31radugakero: i haven't seen it yet... (fuzzy pictures but not an actual unit)
22:11.46radugakero: the j720/psion are similar, but larger
22:12.01radugaand their keyboards are substantially better
22:12.48radugathe j720 is a bit bigger than the psion, its "more modern" but its heavier. the color screen is better than psion's but not a whole lot better
22:12.57radugaipaq screens are much nicer :/
22:12.58Keroraduga: the keyboard of that Zaurus looks nice, but it is smaller than the picture suggests (being only 12 cm wide...)
22:13.16radugakero: try a psion kb sometime.  
22:13.34radugakero: I have *not* seen a finer one, anywhere.
22:13.47Keroraduga: I have a spare stowaway from work, atm. That'll do fine :)
22:13.52ipfraduga: Hewllet Packard Jornada 728
22:13.54ipfsame?
22:13.55radugathe zaurus kb looks like another two-finger thumb typer
22:14.13radugakero: ehehe. but my psion's kb is built in :)
22:14.14ipfi mean.. its similar?
22:14.31radugaipf: the 728 is the most recent model of 720
22:14.39radugamind you there are problems :( :( :(
22:14.50radugathe linux port is... about 90% completed
22:14.53ipfhm.. :(
22:14.58radugabut the developers have essentially given up
22:15.07ipf:)
22:15.08radugaso the last 10% may be doomed
22:15.12ipf¤ 1.134,30
22:15.18ipf:\
22:15.19radugayes, its horrid expensive
22:15.23radugai got mine over ebay
22:15.28radugafor $500
22:15.33ipf:)
22:16.05Keroraduga: yes, and you don't want to know that the power cable is hard to fit in the iPAQ when the stowaway is connected. Design flaw :(
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22:16.31radugakero: hard or impossible?
22:16.34ipfraduga: thanks again.. really [[]]
22:16.49radugaipf: it all really depends on what you plan to use it for
22:17.05radugai'm going to *guess* that a modern ipaq will suit your needs
22:17.11ipfbasically.. remote ssh connection
22:17.28radugaunless you need a builtin kb, in which case the old-style zaurus may be fine
22:17.49radugaipaq are touch-screen only, unless you get a dorky external keyboard like  kero has
22:18.00Keroraduga: hard. The iPAQ tilits, but keeps connected to the keyboard.
22:18.04Kerotilts
22:18.09ipfand external keyboard rulz?
22:18.13ipfor not?
22:18.28radugaipf: is your ssh likely to be read-only or mostly read-only or will you be typing much?
22:18.35radugaif typing a little, zaurus may be good
22:18.46radugaif typing very rarely, ipaq/stowaway
22:18.47ipfhm..
22:18.50aokdoes the ipkg tool install packages onto the FLASH memory?
22:18.51Keroipf: it's better than on-screen kbds :)
22:18.55radugaif typing all the time, get a psion, and cry :(
22:19.01ipfKero: lol
22:19.02KeroNo idea about power munching
22:19.05aoklike is /usr and such mounted in FLASH?
22:19.25ipfKero: and it works like a normal pc keyboard or it needs kernel support?
22:19.42hpaq_newbiehow do i use ipkg to get the src; ipkg src install ?
22:20.09radugaipf: standard familiar distribuition should have support for external keyboard enabled by default
22:20.22radugai dont think its kernel though; probably in userspace
22:20.23ipfok..
22:20.37radugayou'll have to do everything in X though
22:20.44radugano console-mode
22:20.51ipf:(
22:20.55ipflol
22:20.58ipfi like console
22:21.04radugaipf: i strongly suggest before you get an ipaq, that you look at the zaurus
22:21.08radugajust to see what it looks like
22:21.14radugaand get a feel for it
22:21.14ipfok..
22:21.22radugazaurus has more limited expansion,
22:21.25ipflooking..
22:21.28radugaBUT, its smaller, in the end
22:21.33radugabecause you don't need an add-on sleeve
22:21.39aokdoes onscreen keyboard work in console or does familiar boot into a gdm/xdm type program?
22:21.53radugaipaq can take a sleeve with 1CF, 2 CF, CF/PC or 2PCMCIA
22:22.12radugazaurus is 1CF only
22:22.12ipfraduga: and supports 1 pcmcia type 2?
22:22.16ipfhm..
22:22.17ipf:(
22:22.25ipfso.. i cant use my xircom card
22:22.41radugawell, with zaurus, you'd need a new card :(
22:22.50radugaipaq is more flexible
22:22.59radugabut will be bulkier, with the sleeves
22:23.11ipfi see..
22:23.25radugathe pcmcia sleeve is also heavier....
22:23.36radugabecause it has an extra battery built in
22:23.55aokcan someone help me with some questions about how the distro works?
22:23.58radugajornada 720/728 have both CF and PCMCIA built in, with no sleeves
22:24.11radugaaok: yes, and yes
22:24.22radugaaok; familiar installs into internal flash
22:24.22aokok, well my questions are mainly about storage
22:24.34raduganot external CF
22:24.39aokok and this is a jffs2 fs, right?
22:24.43radugacorrect
22:24.51aokand future boot loaders may support ext3?
22:25.08aokwould it be possible to create a fs image of ext3 using dd
22:25.08radugano idea. existing boot loader may already support it,
22:25.24radugabut jffs2 is better than ext2/ext3 for handheld systems
22:25.26Keroneeds kernel support.
22:25.40aokwhy is jffs2 better?
22:25.48aokand would cramfs work in flash too?
22:25.48Keroall keyboards need kernel support, but different since no ps2/usb
22:25.58radugaaok: sure, but you'd be better off building a fs on your desktop and running mkfs.jffs2
22:26.15radugaaok: cramfs might. its ancient though, and deprecated
22:26.16Kerolinux 2.5 probably does a better service than 2.4, but I'd have to try the 2.5 branch of handhelds for that.
22:26.38aoki have a 3765 does that lock me into 2.4?
22:26.50radugaaok: it shouldn't :)
22:27.15radugakero: i've only ran low-numbered 2.5.x and they have all bit me hard :(
22:27.17aokok so if i use the nvram modules and such can i make my own filesystems in it?
22:27.24aoki see...
22:27.28radugawhen i finish licking my wounds, i'll try again
22:27.38radugaaok: yes
22:27.52radugaaok: you may want to ask  in #handhelds.org though
22:27.55aokso i could use nvram to use say 24MB of my RAM like system RAM and the rest for a fs and mount that as /home or something
22:27.57Keroraduga: 2.5.47 runs nicely, better response from my system on high loads. 2.5.48 chokes on modules (may be I need newer modutils)
22:28.01radugaaok: just in case the data I'm giving you is faulty
22:28.06radugaaok: which it could well be :)
22:28.15aokthat is not good
22:28.28radugakero: i've only used 2.5.8-2.5.12
22:28.47radugakero: i dont think anyone needs to be told "don't use them" though :)
22:29.18Kerooh.
22:29.23KeroDON'T USE THEM!
22:29.37radugaaok: you should be able to use any/all of the fs you suggested, with familiar/bootldr
22:29.54radugaaok: but i suspect that jffs2 is likely to be better.
22:30.17radugayou can wok with jffs2 just fine on a desktop box, using the flash ram tools, yes
22:30.18ipfraduga: thanks and.. sorry about by bad-written-english
22:30.27aokif i mounted the complete image via my intel box and added binaries to it could i then upload that image to an ipaq using the bootldr or would i need to issue some special command to perhaps ensure initrd was excuted?
22:30.31radugaipf: sorry about my bad-understood-english
22:30.39ipf:))
22:30.39ipflol
22:30.47ipf[[]]
22:30.55radugaaok: essentially, yes. for more detail, ask someone in #handhelds.org :)
22:31.50aokbut installing the base complete.jffs package would boot and then i could add packages downloaded via TCP/IP and it would keep them after resets in flash, correct?
22:33.10radugaYes.
22:33.16aokthat is so awesome
22:33.24aokeveryone should use linux on their handheld
22:33.29radugathey will stay in flash, and persist through shutdown
22:33.40aokso even cold boot?
22:33.42aokthat is cool
22:33.43radugahehe, no kidding :)
22:33.47radugawell, what happens is this:
22:33.51aokthat is way better than ppc2002
22:33.53radugayou overwrite your WINCE roms
22:33.55ipfKero: you have ipaq 3800 right?
22:34.09Kerono 3630, first color-screen model.
22:34.10radugaand replace them with a familiar-based jffs2 flash image
22:34.18ipfhm..
22:34.20ipfoki
22:34.22ipf:)
22:34.30radugaso you may lose your ability to run Wince apps
22:34.32aokthat is cool specially if you can put most accessed dirs in the nvram
22:34.42radugaunless you do a dual-boot setup, which may be a bit more complex
22:34.53aokso like /home and /tmp are in nvram so they never get written to
22:35.03radugawith dual-boot you'll have to keep your entire linux OS on external CF card I believe
22:35.04aokand i assume most logging is shut off too
22:35.17radugawell, logging is up to you
22:35.18aokehh, just linux is fine
22:35.25aokso long as i don't lose any functionallity
22:35.31radugayou can just clean up your logs frequently
22:35.33radugaor disable them
22:35.37radugaor put them in a ramfs
22:35.50radugaa few mb of actual DRAM
22:35.56aokbut i don't even use my ppc because of ppc os 2002 so i figure screw it.. yeah i will probably put /var in the nvram too
22:36.27aoksee i only have the 32MB ROM and 64MB RAM so i figure i've got a lot to work with and still have 15MB or so of free space
22:36.42aokbecause writes to the ROM would be slow correct?
22:37.00radugawell, its not *too* slow to be useable
22:37.10aokbut how strenous on the system?
22:37.11radugareads are fast, writes are slow
22:37.59aoksee that's great though, is nvram available in the new familiar?
22:38.09aokand is there a 6.1 image? or must you upgrade?
22:39.03raduga0.61 i think
22:39.09radugafamiliar is a ways back from 1.0 yet
22:39.25radugaer. not quite sure what you mean by "nvram"
22:39.37radugathere are three types of memory handhelds use
22:39.41aokis the RAM portion of my ppc usable by familiar
22:39.48raduga(four actually, but the fourth is less common)
22:39.58aokwell my 3765 has how many?
22:40.00radugathere's DRAM (dynamic ram) which is cleared at powerdown
22:40.08Kero0.6.1 is the only way to go. 0.5.x is oooold, 0.6 has some nasty start-up bugs.
22:40.28radugathere's flash which is persistent through powerdown. flash is typically used as storage space, i.e. disks
22:40.39radugathere's CF, which is external, removable storage, that's also persistent
22:40.51radugaand then there's masked roms, which only silly handhelds use :)
22:41.08aokKero: but can i get an image of complete.jff2 of 0.6.1
22:41.33Keroraduga: and then there is M$ that doesn't reinitialize DRAM on warm reboot, so it seems permanent.
22:41.34radugaaok: the DRAM is used as ordinary unix ram-space
22:41.44Keroaok: basic, gpe and opie images.
22:41.48aokhow is my dram allocated in familiar?
22:41.52aokin terms of mounts?
22:42.21radugaaok: dram isn't a fs, unless you create a ramfs
22:42.31radugadram is ordinary system memory
22:42.39radugaflash is used as storage
22:42.40aokso it uses my whole 64MB and system memory but i can create a ramdisk?
22:42.57radugaaok: i think modern ipaqs have 64mb dram, and 64mb flash
22:43.01radugamaybe 32mb flash
22:43.04aokso i only have 32MB of storage to be saved after resets, period?
22:43.26radugaolder models only have 32mb; that may be all you get.
22:43.30radugacorrect.
22:43.57aokthere's no way to retain what's in dram if a reset occurs?
22:44.07radugajffs2 does a pretty good job of compressing on the fly
22:44.22radugaaok: what happens to the RAM on your dsektop when you pull the power plug?
22:45.00aokdesktop has 65GIG HD though :)
22:45.29radugaaok: in wince, ram is divided into "storage" and "program" memory; there is no division in linux
22:45.43radugaand in wince, i dont think you can normally write to the internal flash
22:46.29radugathe "storage space" in wince, is deceptive,
22:46.45radugabecause while it persists through warm reboots, if your battery ever goes dead,
22:46.47radugaits all gone.
22:46.51aokthat is true, i figure i can actually pack a lot into the 32MB
22:47.10aokbut familiar does not have that functionallity that ppc does?
22:47.27radugathere are some PIM apps, I haven't used them
22:47.32radugaqpe has some i believe
22:47.47radugait won't be quite as good as wince.
22:48.00radugabut ask someone else, really.
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22:56.13Kerofamiliar is compatible with debian ARM, though. mriads of libs and apps, that can at least be tried (but won't be adapted to a small screen, alas).
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23:35.05ipfraduga: ZAURUS SL-5500 is really great
23:35.16ipfand comes with linux by default
23:35.26ipfwhich is very nice
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