irclog2html for #gllug on 20031122

`00:00.28`	`murble`	`and chiark.`
`00:02.00`	`sm`	`What was the defacement -- any particular cause/type`
`00:03.36`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`00:07.15`	`sm`	`does anyone use vsftpd authenticating against ldap here??`
`00:12.56`	`entity`	`not a sausuage ;)`
`00:13.28`	`murble`	`sm: well i don't, but i'd imagine it should jsut work if you have libnss-ldap foo working`
`00:13.58`	`sm`	`murble: I have other services working with openldap -- ssh for example but vsftpd won't play`
`00:15.02`	`sm`	`i might bite it and go for proftpd instead!`
`00:15.14`	`murble`	`could it just be a pam permissions problem?`
`00:15.42`	`sm`	`i don't know: there is hardly anything on google for working examples of it`
`00:16.10`	`murble`	`well waht do you see in /var/log/auth when it fails/`
`00:16.16`	`murble`	`or wheever you auth log goes.`
`00:16.22`	`sm`	`hang on a sec...`
`00:16.50`	`murble`	`I've certainly had it working with nis+`
`00:17.30`	`sm`	`here we go:`
`00:17.33`	`sm`	`Nov 22 00:13:02 penguin vsftpd: PAM-listfile: Couldn't open /etc/ftpusers`
`00:17.33`	`sm`	`Nov 22 00:13:04 penguin PAM_unix[17943]: check pass; user unknown`
`00:17.33`	`sm`	`Nov 22 00:13:04 penguin PAM_unix[17943]: authentication failure; (uid=0) -> hsimpson for ftp service`
`00:18.02`	`sm`	`i have virtual servers working on 2 addresses with the /etc/passwd file working fine on one config`
`00:18.16`	`sm`	`but the 2nd virtual server looking at ldap won't work`
`00:18.35`	`sm`	`i'm not sure the /etc/ftpusers is the thing. Maybe`
`00:18.37`	`murble`	`virtual servers?`
`00:18.49`	`murble`	`sm: no your problem is the check pass; user unknown`
`00:19.10`	`sm`	`Yeah. I have 2 IP addresses bound to the card -- one accepts connections from the net to certain local users`
`00:19.22`	`sm`	`and the other allows connections from the LAN for internal users`
`00:27.03`	`sm`	`Thanks guys it seems to be a ldap permissions problem`
`00:27.25`	`sm`	`vsftpd is looking for the user against ldap, but there are permissions problems in /var/log/slapd.log`
`00:46.31`	`Wethrin`	`What're pros/cons for using symbolic links, rather than hard links (assuming file is on the same file system)`
`00:47.00`	`JD`	`night`
`00:47.04`	`Wethrin`	`nn`
`00:50.29`	`entity`	`wb nasrat`
`00:50.47`	`entity`	`entity == pie`
`00:50.56`	`Wethrin`	`Ahh :)`
`00:51.00`	`Wethrin`	`Hi`
`00:51.04`	`entity`	`'lo`
`00:51.48`	`Wethrin`	`Any answer to my question yet? :)`
`00:52.00`	`entity`	`wut?`
`00:52.02`	`entity`	`me?`
`00:52.02`	`sm`	`Wethrin: No still scratching my head`
`00:52.06`	`Wethrin`	`Ah`
`00:52.42`	`sm`	`Wethrin: a really weak pro is that it is easier to see where a sym link points to than a hard link`
`00:52.58`	`sm`	`Also when you delete a hard linked file does the other hard link still work??`
`00:53.07`	`Wethrin`	`That doesn't matter for me - I know where these files are`
`00:53.07`	`Wethrin`	`Yes.`
`00:53.13`	`Wethrin`	`It just reduces the link count`
`00:53.30`	`Wethrin`	`When the count gets to 0, the file's inode is cleared`
`00:53.38`	`sm`	`In that case.... I don't know ;-)`
`00:53.41`	`sm`	`Sorry!`
`00:55.51`	`Wethrin`	`Hm. Well, for a few of my files, I know I need hard links`
`00:56.11`	`Wethrin`	`(symlinks would have pointed outside of a chrooted environment, and not worked)`
`00:56.49`	`sm`	`well i guess that symlinks came about because of the inability to hardlink across partitions`
`00:56.58`	`Wethrin`	`Yes`
`00:57.04`	`sm`	`but I have always used sym links as a way of working`
`00:57.14`	`Wethrin`	`I've tended to, too.`
`00:57.34`	`Clyphox`	`symlinks for for me in a chrooted env..?`
`00:58.01`	`Wethrin`	`Well, if you use hard links, you'll have to find all the links to a file before you can delete it :)`
`00:58.04`	`Wethrin`	`Clyphox: Huh?`
`00:58.18`	`Clyphox`	`s/for/work`
`00:58.38`	`Wethrin`	`Clyphox: Not if they point outside the chrooted environment`
`00:59.08`	`Wethrin`	`ln -s /bar/foo /quux ; chroot /bar`
`00:59.30`	`Wethrin`	`Foo is still linked to /quux. But now /quux doesn't exist.`
`00:59.44`	`Wethrin`	`Whereas, ln /bar/foo /quux ; chroot bar`
`01:00.04`	`Wethrin`	`foo will work, because it points to the same inode`
`01:02.36`	`Marios_`	`symbolic links take more space I guess`
`01:02.51`	`entity`	`s/symbolic/hard/`
`01:03.23`	`Wethrin`	`How much more space?`
`01:03.53`	`Marios_`	`not lots more but it takes`
`01:04.14`	`Marios_`	`oh by the way look at this thread http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=ROLAND.90Aug24060229%40churchy.ai.mit.edu&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dhard%2Blinks%2Bvs%2Bsymbolic%2Blinks%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3DROLAND.90Aug24060229%2540churchy.ai.mit.edu%26rnum%3D1`
`01:05.07`	`Wethrin`	`A symlink uses an extra inode; a hard link does not`
`01:05.38`	`eye69`	`I have never in my ~8 years with Linux used a hard link.`
`01:05.56`	`entity`	`me neither`
`01:06.01`	`entity`	`~4 years`
`01:06.43`	`Wethrin`	`Right. Symbolic links take more space than hard links.`
`01:07.57`	`Wethrin`	`And symlinks are slower, too`
`01:08.16`	`Wethrin`	`As expected, about twice as slow to access`
`01:08.18`	`entity`	`yeah, but users are slower than symlionks, so it doesn't matter ;)`
`01:08.27`	`Wethrin`	`Depends how many files you're dealing with :)`
`01:09.03`	`Wethrin`	`Symlinks are most useful to cross filesystems`
`01:09.14`	`Marios_`	`Clyphox << I like tinyurl.com`
`01:09.31`	`Clyphox`	`yay :-)`
`01:09.35`	`Wethrin`	`But hard links are what I need, so hard links I shall use all the time (rather than mixing the two types). For this case, anyway`
`01:17.49`	`Wethrin`	`What's wrong with this command line:`
`01:17.49`	`Wethrin`	`ssh -g -R 2222:192.168.26.100:22 eco.li`
`01:19.22`	`Clyphox`	`hmm.. looks ok`
`01:19.36`	`Wethrin`	`Try connecting to port 2222 on eco.li`
`01:20.32`	`Wethrin`	`Ahhhrm.`
`01:20.44`	`Wethrin`	`It works if you log into it, then connect to 2222`
`01:29.37`	`Wethrin`	`g'night all`
`01:29.45`	`Clyphox`	`nn`
`01:31.47`	`*** join/#gllug rsimonmoris (~simon@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`01:32.46`	`Marios_`	`everybody is gone`
`01:32.55`	`simonmorris`	`yes there is no-one here`
`01:32.58`	`entity`	`I am still here, just lurking a lot`
`01:33.02`	`Marios_`	`ohhh`
`01:33.10`	`Marios_`	`I am not alone then`
`01:33.21`	`simonmorris`	`rsimonmoris was me trying a different irc client.`
`01:33.22`	`simonmorris`	`sorry`
`01:33.22`	`entity`	`we are not alone ;)`
`01:33.54`	`Marios_`	`hhehee`
`01:33.57`	`Marios_`	`simon << what client do you usually use?`
`01:34.05`	`simonmorris`	`Where were we all 40 years ago (if you are over, say, 50 years old)`
`01:34.22`	`simonmorris`	`To put it another way what is today the 40th anniversary of`
`01:34.31`	`entity`	`40 years ago.`
`01:34.45`	`simonmorris`	`22nd November 1963`
`01:35.02`	`simonmorris`	`Delaney Plaza`
`01:35.08`	`entity`	`Columbus sailed the ocean blue?`
`01:35.10`	`Marios_`	`21st November 1963`
`01:35.58`	`simonmorris`	`JFK assassination anniversary today.`
`01:36.29`	`Marios_`	`yeah this is true`
`01:36.59`	`simonmorris`	`Lone gunman or a team of Secret Service agents depending which theory you believe`
`01:37.02`	`entity`	`I thought it had been scientifically proven that the whole thing was staged by aloens?`
`01:37.04`	`entity`	`aliens?`
`01:37.25`	`simonmorris`	`I hadn't heard that but it is more likely than the lone gunman theoru`
`01:37.32`	`simonmorris`	`theory`
`01:39.14`	`simonmorris`	`Marios_: i usually use X Chat but thought BitchX would be worth a quick lookie`
`01:39.58`	`Marios_`	`I would like to see mIRC ported to Linux`
`01:40.24`	`entity`	`never liked it much`
`01:41.06`	`Marios_`	`it is not bad`
`01:49.17`	`simonmorris`	`.`
`01:50.49`	`Marios_`	`so did you like BitchX ?`
`01:54.55`	`simonmorris`	`Sorry mate was lost in #debian`
`01:55.01`	`entity`	`news?`
`01:55.15`	`simonmorris`	`no helping a chap with a network/install problem`
`01:55.47`	`entity`	`Ah`
`01:56.28`	`simonmorris`	`they are saying debian.org is down but I can connect. Can you?`
`01:56.44`	`entity`	`yes`
`01:56.50`	`simonmorris`	`Hmmm`
`01:56.57`	`Marios_`	`yeah`
`02:09.30`	`simonmorris`	`the chap is trying to get a ISA card working with the 2.2 kernel in Woody`
`02:09.38`	`simonmorris`	`There are easier ways to pass a Friday evening`
`02:10.48`	`entity`	`beer.`
`02:11.37`	`simonmorris`	`watching comic relief on bbc... on second thoughts wheres that ISA card gone`
`02:11.58`	`entity`	`:)`
`02:12.00`	`entity`	`quite`
`02:12.55`	`simonmorris`	`Marios_: BitchX looked OK.. to be honest I very rarely get into IRC channels`
`02:13.13`	`simonmorris`	`brb`
`02:14.54`	`entity`	`Hmmm, sgreddies`
`02:16.56`	`simonmorris`	`just to break the silence have you all seen this:`
`02:16.58`	`simonmorris`	`http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html`
`02:17.29`	`simonmorris`	`it was on a gllug thread months ago`
`02:17.35`	`entity`	`yes`
`02:18.24`	`Marios_`	`lol`
`02:18.27`	`Marios_`	`I never seen it`
`02:19.06`	`simonmorris`	`It's a long read but quite amusing.`
`02:19.27`	`Marios_`	`someone should ask him...how come is free ??`
`02:19.53`	`simonmorris`	`If you look up the thread on the GLLUG archives he actually answers that question`
`02:19.56`	`simonmorris`	`let me look......`
`02:20.08`	`Marios_`	`I see`
`02:26.10`	`simonmorris`	`Nope can't find it. I think the copyright was surrended or expired`
`02:26.32`	`simonmorris`	`Shame we can't search the entire archive without downloading it all`
`02:28.44`	`Marios_`	`that's fine`
`02:29.56`	`Marios_`	`these guys hate Unix so much I can't believe it`
`02:30.33`	`simonmorris`	`Yep, but it's a strange kind of anti book... they don't really advocate any other OS,`
`02:30.55`	`simonmorris`	`and most of the vendor stuff is UNIX v UNIX between different proprietary types`
`02:31.10`	`simonmorris`	`The word microsoft appears about once or twice`
`02:32.02`	`Marios_`	`yeah`
`02:32.15`	`Marios_`	`I am in the page now where they even accuse DOS`
`02:52.46`	`Clyphox`	`nn all`
`09:16.10`	`JD`	`hi all`
`09:16.39`	`JD`	`nasrat: is H.I.M. good?`
`09:16.52`	`nasrat`	`the band?`
`09:17.37`	`JD`	`yep`
`09:17.39`	`nasrat`	`haven't really listened to them that much.`
`09:17.47`	`JD`	`oh okay`
`09:18.08`	`JD`	`are they fairly representitive of goth rock?`
`09:19.27`	`nasrat`	`umm probably need to listen to them, I tend to listen to more industrial/electronica stuff`
`09:19.42`	`JD`	`okay`
`09:20.12`	`nasrat`	`if you're looking for a list of representative stuff I could probably link you to a play list`
`09:20.38`	`JD`	`that would be cool`
`09:21.22`	`nasrat`	`I'll dig something up.`
`09:22.44`	`JD`	`:)`
`09:23.13`	`nasrat`	`http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/ has a good history of goth plus playlists from his club nights resurgence is the goth one`
`09:23.54`	`JD`	`ty`
`09:24.17`	`nasrat`	`pete's pretty good musically`
`09:26.22`	`nasrat`	`also dig around the club links on netgoth.org.uk most will have playlists`
`09:34.31`	`Xiaoqi`	`morning all`
`09:43.09`	`JD`	`hi nikki`
`10:13.38`	`JD`	`nasrat: I like quite a lot of the 80s stuff`
`10:35.04`	`nasrat`	`JD: ok http://www.bmovieclub.co.uk/ is good for some 80's stuff.`
`10:35.23`	`JD`	`:)`
`10:35.40`	`JD`	`hmm Jesus and Mary Chain on The Amp`
`10:46.20`	`*** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host81-128-237-47.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`10:46.29`	`zachary`	`moin`
`10:47.56`	`JD`	`hi`
`11:41.10`	`Wethrin`	`'ello`
`11:42.47`	`*** join/#gllug simonmorris (~tanya@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`11:45.52`	`JD`	`hi Wethrin`
`11:48.59`	`Wethrin`	`It's raining :(`
`11:49.25`	`JD`	`that would require leaving bed`
`11:49.46`	`Wethrin`	`True`
`11:51.48`	`JD`	`#define True 1`
`11:52.29`	`Wethrin`	`Hum?`
`11:52.36`	`Wethrin`	`true, then`
`11:52.56`	`JD`	`thank you`
`11:53.19`	`Wethrin`	`.oO(pedantic programming geeks)`
`11:53.35`	`JD`	`people that do things like define TRUE in C or C++ are truly evil and/or stupid`
`11:54.07`	`JD`	`Wethrin: it is called type safety`
`11:54.09`	`JD`	`it is a good thing`
`11:55.51`	`Wethrin`	`Yep. But some people like having constants in all caps`
`12:16.04`	`highbury`	`morning'ish`
`12:19.29`	`JD`	`highbury: nothing like morning`
`12:30.09`	`JD`	`awww`
`12:33.11`	`highbury`	`can one rename an LVM "Volume Group" ?`
`12:33.25`	`Wethrin`	`I think so. But ask agk :)`
`12:52.54`	`*** join/#gllug cupis (~paul@195.137.116.73)`
`13:38.05`	`*** join/#gllug SpudULike (~colin@82-35-39-221.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`13:43.09`	`*** mode/#gllug [+o SpudULike] by ChanServ`
`13:43.25`	`Wethrin`	`'lo Spud`
`13:44.29`	`Wethrin`	`"He's not an operator, he's a very naughty boy"`
`13:44.46`	`JD`	`:)`
`13:44.54`	`SpudULike`	`I just remembered that the contact email address for the #gllug* channels is pointing to *linux.co.uk`
`13:45.03`	`JD`	`oh right`
`13:45.10`	`JD`	`I'm not sur eyou need to op yourself though`
`13:45.30`	`SpudULike`	`No, I don't think I do now either.`
`13:45.42`	`SpudULike`	`It was a good place to start from though.`
`13:45.42`	`JD`	`like you don't need to be an op to change the topic`
`13:46.13`	`*** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-208-91.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`13:47.33`	`*** part/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-208-91.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`13:48.40`	`highbury`	`SpudULike, that is still correct`
`13:48.57`	`highbury`	`as the main web page says, things are changing`
`13:49.51`	`highbury`	`we're currently waiting for korenwolf/jason_ukfsn to initially move gllug-announce, after which we'll announce things, then move the main list over`
`13:49.53`	`SpudULike`	`OK, I'll stop fiddling.`
`13:50.09`	`Wethrin`	`JD: You need to be on the access list, anyway`
`13:50.16`	`Wethrin`	`$RANDOM_USER can't change the topic here`
`13:50.24`	`SpudULike`	`I thought gllugannounce was active though.`
`13:50.41`	`JD`	`Wethrin: well no`
`13:50.53`	`JD`	`well they can. but then chanserv changes it back again`
`13:50.55`	`highbury`	`only gllugadmin@gllug.org.uk is working via ukfsn`
`13:51.15`	`Wethrin`	`JD: Try /topic Foo`
`13:51.26`	`highbury`	`gllug and gllug-announce @linux.co.uk are still working`
`13:51.50`	`JD`	`hmm we at +t okay`
`13:51.54`	`JD`	`we don't need to be`
`13:52.05`	`JD`	`assuming we have chanserv topic protection on`
`13:52.12`	`Wethrin`	`I don't think we do`
`13:52.44`	`Wethrin`	`I want to force a user to change their password the first time they log in. How would I do that?`
`13:56.00`	`*** mode/#gllug [-o SpudULike] by SpudULike`
`13:56.05`	`JD`	`Wethrin: hahahaha someone asked this recently`
`13:56.29`	`JD`	`I dont know the answer tbh`
`14:01.04`	`Wethrin`	`I guess it could be hacked around with by having a file somewhere, which, if it exists, will call the passwd program`
`14:02.40`	`*** join/#gllug simonmorris (~simonmorr@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`14:05.28`	`Wethrin`	`But then it has a problem that someone could FTP in and change the password`
`14:05.46`	`Wethrin`	`Oh well. I guess Windows is much better at it than Unix.`
`14:07.26`	`nasrat`	`Wethrin: chage from shadow utils`
`14:08.50`	`Wethrin`	`nasrat: Under OpenBSD?`
`14:10.19`	`nasrat`	`umm, don't have openbsd box to hand. chage -d 0 username would do it on a linux box with shadow passwords. Does man passwd have a -f flag described in openbsd`
`14:10.39`	`Wethrin`	`no`
`14:11.18`	`nasrat`	`does chage exist on the system?`
`14:11.22`	`Wethrin`	`No`
`14:11.24`	`Wethrin`	`:)`
`14:12.33`	`*** join/#gllug formi (~formi@82-35-34-114.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`14:14.28`	`Wethrin`	`It comes up with 'dead password', although I've set password-dead=1y in /etc/login.conf`
`14:16.05`	`*** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-208-91.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`14:16.42`	`nasrat`	`I think you can use user to set expiry but not sure`
`14:17.01`	`nasrat`	`don't have openbsd box to hand`
`14:17.25`	`formi`	`i do have an obsd box at hand`
`14:19.17`	`Wethrin`	`Hm. I set the password expiry to 'Nov 23 2004', and it still tells me it's a dead password`
`14:19.57`	`formi`	`where are you setting that?`
`14:20.16`	`Wethrin`	`usermod -e "Nov 23 2004" $user`
`14:21.41`	`nasrat`	`Wethrin: try usermod -f "Nov 23 2004" $user`
`14:22.04`	`Wethrin`	`Aha :)`
`14:22.28`	`Wethrin`	`Although that's completely counter-intuitive`
`14:22.56`	`Wethrin`	`<PROTECTED>`
`14:22.56`	`Wethrin`	`<PROTECTED>`
`14:23.04`	`Wethrin`	`<PROTECTED>`
`14:23.04`	`Wethrin`	`<PROTECTED>`
`14:23.14`	`Wethrin`	`But yet, the -f option sets the password expiry time`
`14:24.11`	`formi`	`afaik, -e is for the passwd, and -f for the whole account`
`14:25.21`	`formi`	`whatever that means`
`14:25.34`	`Wethrin`	`But -f sets the password-expiry field in the password file, and -e sets the account expiry`
`14:25.45`	`Wethrin`	`Well, it works now, anyway. Thanks for that :)`
`14:27.11`	`nasrat`	`Wethrin: check it works across ssh as well as console. chage trick here doesn't seem happy on ssh probably a pam thing though`
`14:28.57`	`Wethrin`	`Arg. It doesn't work over ssh`
`14:31.03`	`nasrat`	`http://www.zip.com.au/~dtucker/openssh/ seems to have expiry patches`
`14:33.37`	`Wethrin`	`Yep. But he patches against the portable tree; I'm not using that. Is it likely to work?`
`14:36.44`	`formi`	`Nominet.uk has sent me a letter asking for ?94/2year to renovate a co.uk detagged domain!!`
`14:36.48`	`Wethrin`	`Oh, and it probably wouldn't work in a chrooted environment anyway`
`14:38.15`	`nasrat`	`Wethrin: just enforce key only logines`
`14:40.24`	`*** join/#gllug eye69 (~magnus@upcore.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`14:40.24`	`*** join/#gllug murble (~murble@213.152.57.250) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`14:40.26`	`Wethrin`	`Would be nice if one could`
`14:41.17`	`Wethrin`	`Unfortunately, I don't think that it will be possible`
`14:49.39`	`*** join/#gllug simonmorris (~simonmorr@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`14:57.39`	`Wethrin`	`Let the user create a file called 'chpass'. If it exists, then the next time they log in, it'll require them to change password`
`14:58.33`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`14:59.11`	`*** join/#gllug richardc_ (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`15:01.44`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds_mac (~Leeds_mac@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`15:13.54`	`JD`	`Leeds_mac: are you done now?`
`15:14.58`	`Leeds_mac`	`done with what?`
`15:17.22`	`Leeds_mac`	`JD?`
`15:17.49`	`JD`	`parting and joining`
`15:18.31`	`Leeds_mac`	`has Leeds_mac been parting and joining?`
`15:24.38`	`*** join/#gllug jason_ukfsn (~jason@public1-watf3-5-cust248.lond.broadband.ntl.com)`
`15:24.49`	`jason_ukfsn`	`hey all`
`15:24.56`	`simonmorris`	`hey jason`
`15:25.41`	`JD`	`Leeds_mac: one Leeds_mac , one Leeds and one richardc_ all joined`
`15:27.45`	`Leeds_mac`	`yeah, that's xchat...`
`15:30.26`	`JD`	`maybe you shouldn;t use it`
`15:33.18`	`Leeds_mac`	`not that... it's an interaction with my window manager, I think`
`15:33.34`	`Leeds_mac`	`anyway - I've still not heard anyone suggest anything better`
`15:37.58`	`JD`	`irssi`
`15:38.14`	`jason_ukfsn`	`I use xchat and it works well for me.`
`15:38.42`	`jason_ukfsn`	`previously I used kirc however that had problems with an ipcop firewall in place so I moved over.`
`15:48.24`	`Wethrin`	`McLeeds`
`15:58.31`	`highbury`	`kopete had fixed it`
`15:58.49`	`highbury`	`gaim apparently needs some extra ssl shennanigans`
`15:59.05`	`simonmorris`	`Sorry... kopete the person or application`
`15:59.21`	`highbury`	`kopete is a KDE based IM`
`15:59.27`	`simonmorris`	`ahh..`
`15:59.43`	`simonmorris`	`i would apt-get for it, but maybe not today ;-(`
`16:00.07`	`highbury`	`gregj works on part of it`
`16:02.43`	`highbury`	`'cept its not connecting for me at the moment :-(`
`16:02.44`	`*** join/#gllug JonB (~jon@129.142.112.33)`
`16:04.06`	`simonmorris`	`bye folks....`
`16:37.23`	`*** join/#gllug pawelsz (~pawelsz@82-68-6-254.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)`
`16:37.29`	`pawelsz`	`.`
`16:37.50`	`Wethrin`	`Stack empty`
`16:38.03`	`JonB`	`push 42`
`16:38.55`	`pawelsz`	`Wethrin: hi. :-)`
`16:39.06`	`Wethrin`	`Hi`
`16:41.30`	`pawelsz`	`Wethrin: how are you? ;-)`
`16:41.32`	`pawelsz`	`hihi.`
`16:42.00`	`Wethrin`	`Not so bad. Configuring a swerver`
`16:42.38`	`pawelsz`	`what server? what distribution?`
`16:42.48`	`Wethrin`	`OpenBSD`
`16:43.04`	`pawelsz`	`ah..`
`16:43.05`	`pawelsz`	`;-)`
`16:43.12`	`Wethrin`	`:)`
`16:43.17`	`pawelsz`	`why bsd?`
`16:43.24`	`Wethrin`	`Because I like it :)`
`16:43.40`	`Wethrin`	`And it's got some nice features, plus the code audits.`
`16:44.34`	`pawelsz`	`you don't have any problems with some nevest hardware?`
`16:44.48`	`Wethrin`	`I'm not running newest hardware.`
`16:45.10`	`Wethrin`	`Anyway, sometimes BSD has better hardware support than Linux. Wireless networking, for example, was supported earlier`
`16:47.57`	`pawelsz`	`hm, really? i think linux-wlan-ng can work with bigest list of card than bsd.`
`16:48.09`	`pawelsz`	`s/card/cards/`
`16:49.27`	`Wethrin`	`Maybe now, but not a year or two ago`
`16:49.34`	`JonB`	`woooha, a pissing contest, where do i start ?`
`16:50.02`	`Wethrin`	`Drink those. that's a start.`
`16:50.10`	`pawelsz`	`;-)`
`16:50.10`	`JonB`	`Wethrin: gee, thanks`
`16:54.34`	`JD`	`Hmmm beer`
`16:54.41`	`JD`	`what a good idea`
`17:45.09`	`Clyphox`	`Hi all`
`17:53.09`	`JD`	`hi`
`17:53.36`	`murble`	`urgle`
`17:55.06`	`Clyphox`	`Watch the rugby ?`
`17:57.34`	`JD`	`the last bit`
`17:59.14`	`Clyphox`	`it was good`
`17:59.40`	`Clyphox`	`sad to see it leave the southern hemisphere... but thats better than letting the convicts win`
`18:08.08`	`pawelsz`	`hm, I have nice think for sat night. ;-)`
`18:08.14`	`pawelsz`	`Psion Revo.`
`18:08.24`	`pawelsz`	`i want to put there revol.`
`18:08.26`	`pawelsz`	`;-)`
`18:09.27`	`Clyphox`	`5they have nice keyboards :-)`
`18:09.52`	`pawelsz`	`revol is a linux distribution for Revo. ;-)`
`18:10.05`	`Clyphox`	`really? is it good?`
`18:10.41`	`pawelsz`	`hm, i try to put ther some tiny-http server. ;-)`
`18:11.04`	`pawelsz`	`out in normal situation you have picogui.`
`18:11.17`	`pawelsz`	`and some applications special for Revo.`
`18:11.43`	`pawelsz`	`put it's only 8mb. :-/`
`18:11.54`	`Clyphox`	`yes.. looking at the website :-)`
`18:11.57`	`Clyphox`	`better than windoze`
`18:11.58`	`pawelsz`	`and ARM powered. ;-)`
`18:12.02`	`Clyphox`	`as long as I can ssh :-0`
`18:12.53`	`JonB`	`Clyphox: GSM/GRPS in it ?`
`18:12.56`	`pawelsz`	`i use ssh on m100. ;-)`
`18:13.30`	`pawelsz`	`JonB: no. you have serial/irda and you can use some external modem.`
`18:13.50`	`Clyphox`	`gonna watch the rugby again.. c u laters`
`18:14.06`	`pawelsz`	`it can be modem from Nokia mobile.`
`18:14.13`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: okay, then i prefer my treo`
`18:14.39`	`pawelsz`	`yes, Treo is cool. ;-)`
`18:14.51`	`pawelsz`	`i like PalmOS's devices.`
`18:15.43`	`pawelsz`	`I have poor m100. ;-)`
`18:16.15`	`pawelsz`	`with dictionary, pim and top gun ssh.`
`18:16.16`	`pawelsz`	`;-)`
`18:16.18`	`JonB`	`get a treo`
`18:16.28`	`JonB`	`once 600 comes, 180 and 270 will be cheaper`
`18:16.46`	`pawelsz`	`i thinking about new PDA.`
`18:16.54`	`pawelsz`	`i have broken ipaq too.`
`18:17.13`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: then get a treo 600`
`18:17.59`	`pawelsz`	`you have it?`
`18:18.07`	`pawelsz`	`this treo model.`
`18:18.09`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: just an 180`
`18:18.33`	`pawelsz`	`grafitti? qwerty?`
`18:18.48`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: qwerty`
`18:19.00`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: once you had it, YOU DONT EVER LOOK BACK`
`18:19.13`	`pawelsz`	`graffiti, even.`
`18:19.56`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: i dont miss it`
`18:21.15`	`pawelsz`	`hm, long time a go I had some HP palmtop, with qwerty, powered by Windows CE, it was be scary experience.`
`18:21.42`	`JonB`	`pawelsz: i like it on the treo`
`18:22.19`	`pawelsz`	`later i put NetBSD to this device. ;-)`
`18:22.36`	`JonB`	`hehe`
`18:51.15`	`*** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mkoumide@24.231.225.197)`
`19:03.25`	`stephen`	`I'm trying to install ncurses on a debian box with apt, but get the following error: "Package ncurses has no available version, but exists in the database.", does this mean that the mirror I'm using doesn't have the appropriate package?`
`19:04.04`	`Wethrin`	`Right. Now, your first problem is that you're using Debian.`
`19:04.18`	`Wethrin`	`Once you've solved that, we can move onto the second problem, which is getting ncurses installed.`
`19:04.33`	`stephen`	`not my choice, it's for a colocation customer`
`19:04.37`	`Wethrin`	`Chances are, you can kill two birds with one stone.`
`19:05.43`	`Wethrin`	`apt-get check`
`19:13.51`	`stephen`	`Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:`
`19:13.51`	`stephen`	`E: Unmet dependencies. Try using -f.`
`19:14.19`	`stephen`	`apt-get -f install ncurses gives "E: Package ncurses has no installation candidate"`
`19:18.13`	`gregj`	`higbury wanted something from me, I think`
`19:18.21`	`gregj`	`Hi chaps`
`19:18.38`	`gregj`	`libncurses5`
`19:19.31`	`*** join/#gllug simonmorris (~simonmorr@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`19:26.32`	`stephen`	`gregj: thanks`
`19:27.40`	`stephen`	`hmm, now it spews out even more errors`
`19:27.55`	`stephen`	`what is this? RPM? :p`
`19:28.19`	`gregj`	`stephen: np`
`19:28.26`	`gregj`	`stephen: apt-cache search ncurses`
`19:30.13`	`Wethrin`	`Hrm.`
`19:30.17`	`stephen`	`this gives a long list of packages, including libncurses5 at the bottom`
`19:30.45`	`Wethrin`	`I need a way of chrooting into a particular directory, the dropping privileges to $RANDOM_USER, and running /bin/sh in the chrooted environment.`
`19:31.56`	`Wethrin`	`Ideas, people? :)`
`19:32.49`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: how much is decent sun machine , old enough so i can buy it, new enough to run anything decent on it ?`
`19:33.14`	`Wethrin`	`You won't run KDE on it :-)`
`19:33.14`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: there are many howtos about it`
`19:33.24`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: i am not dreaming of kde`
`19:33.27`	`Wethrin`	`:)`
`19:33.30`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: i need something else than PC`
`19:33.37`	`Wethrin`	`Decent.....try around �100`
`19:33.44`	`Wethrin`	`(well, passable)`
`19:33.46`	`gregj`	`sounds resonable`
`19:33.52`	`gregj`	`where`
`19:33.57`	`gregj`	`don't say ebay...`
`19:33.58`	`Wethrin`	`No idea :)`
`19:34.46`	`Wethrin`	`BTW, I'm not using Linux, so don't give me anything about pam trickery :)`
`19:34.55`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: basicaly you need to give someone shell "sudo /bin/chroot /chroot"`
`19:35.08`	`gregj`	`and than do something so they will get their privilges back on the other side`
`19:35.17`	`Wethrin`	`The second one is the problem :)`
`19:35.21`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: what kind of system ?`
`19:35.27`	`gregj`	`i did that ages ago with ssh`
`19:35.38`	`Wethrin`	`OpenBSD`
`19:35.55`	`gregj`	`i though bsd has that kind of mechanism inside`
`19:35.59`	`gregj`	`if not, write it :-)`
`19:36.02`	`Wethrin`	`Not for logins :)`
`19:36.03`	`Wethrin`	`Heh.`
`19:36.10`	`Wethrin`	`Would something like this work:`
`19:36.17`	`stephen`	`ebay, or there's loads of bankrupt stock places etc. that have them and don't know what they are, so will do good deals on them :)`
`19:36.23`	`Wethrin`	`(as root): chroot to $DIRECTORY`
`19:36.50`	`Wethrin`	`Change uid to $USER`
`19:36.54`	`gregj`	`and you need to show chroot a command, in this case sudo -u something -c bash`
`19:37.10`	`gregj`	`by default chroot runs /bin/bash or /bin/sh`
`19:37.20`	`Wethrin`	`Exec /bin/sh`
`19:37.25`	`Wethrin`	`Would that work? Or not?`
`19:37.29`	`gregj`	`try`
`19:37.30`	`gregj`	`it should`
`19:37.36`	`Wethrin`	`Excellent :)`
`19:37.39`	`gregj`	`you need to use sudo extensively`
`19:37.49`	`gregj`	`right, on decent unix systems we have pam ;-)`
`19:37.52`	`Wethrin`	`Will sudo work for $NON_ROOT users?`
`19:37.59`	`Wethrin`	`Ah yes.`
`19:38.06`	`gregj`	`sudo works for non-root users`
`19:38.11`	`Wethrin`	`This requires having sudo in the chrooted environment, though`
`19:38.14`	`gregj`	`that's the purpose of it's existance`
`19:38.18`	`gregj`	`true`
`19:38.21`	`gregj`	`man sudoers`
`19:38.36`	`Wethrin`	`No, I mean telling root to sudo as another user`
`19:38.44`	`Wethrin`	`sudo -u $OTHER_USER foo`
`19:38.45`	`gregj`	`sudo -u user`
`19:38.48`	`Wethrin`	`:)`
`19:38.49`	`gregj`	`yep`
`19:39.02`	`gregj`	`i am using sudo extensively`
`19:39.10`	`Wethrin`	`Hm. I don't want to have sudo in the chrooted environment, which kind of sticks things up a bit`
`19:39.21`	`gregj`	`when i.e. postfix (user nobody) needs to do something in /var/www (as www-data)`
`19:39.23`	`Wethrin`	`chroot /home/user su -u user /bin/sh`
`19:39.27`	`gregj`	`and other sort of shit`
`19:39.40`	`Wethrin`	`s/su/sudo/`
`19:39.45`	`gregj`	`yep`
`19:39.50`	`Wethrin`	`Won't work is sudo is not in user's home directory`
`19:40.02`	`gregj`	`just try, do many different experiments with sudo`
`19:40.21`	`gregj`	`and don't put in sudoers anything beyond what's needed`
`19:41.15`	`Wethrin`	`Gah. I will need sudo in home directory`
`19:41.28`	`gregj`	`why ?`
`19:41.31`	`gregj`	`/bin/`
`19:41.47`	`Wethrin`	`chroot /home/user sudo -u user /bin/sh`
`19:41.49`	`gregj`	`my /sbin is usualy xr------- root.root`
`19:41.59`	`Wethrin`	`bash-2.05b# chroot /home/test sudo -u test /bin/sh`
`19:41.59`	`Wethrin`	`chroot: sudo: No such file or directory`
`19:42.07`	`gregj`	`apt-get install sudo :`
`19:42.08`	`gregj`	`:>`
`19:42.12`	`Wethrin`	`It's installed`
`19:42.18`	`gregj`	`/sbin/sudo`
`19:42.19`	`Wethrin`	`Just not in chroot environemnt`
`19:42.22`	`gregj`	`oh`
`19:42.23`	`gregj`	`true`
`19:42.27`	`Wethrin`	`bash-2.05b# which sudo`
`19:42.27`	`Wethrin`	`/usr/bin/sudo`
`19:42.32`	`gregj`	`hmm`
`19:42.50`	`gregj`	`well, it is not required on nfs machine to be on local partition`
`19:42.57`	`Wethrin`	`bash-2.05b# chroot /home/test /bin/sudo -u test /bin/sh`
`19:42.57`	`Wethrin`	`sudo: uid 0 does not exist in the passwd file!`
`19:43.00`	`gregj`	`so certainly it can reside in /usr`
`19:43.02`	`Wethrin`	`Grrr. It does:`
`19:43.09`	`Wethrin`	`bash-2.05b# cat /home/test/etc/passwd`
`19:43.09`	`Wethrin`	`root:*:0:0:Charlie &:/root:`
`19:43.10`	`Wethrin`	`test:*:1001:10:Test User:/:/bin/sh`
`19:43.12`	`gregj`	`cat /home/test/etc/passwd`
`19:43.36`	`gregj`	`cat /home/test/etc/shells`
`19:43.58`	`Wethrin`	`I have no /home/test/etc/shells`
`19:44.30`	`gregj`	`it is required on linux`
`19:44.34`	`gregj`	`at least when you have pam`
`19:44.38`	`Wethrin`	`I don't have pam :)`
`19:44.43`	`gregj`	`i know`
`19:44.55`	`Wethrin`	`Doesn't work even with an etc/shells`
`19:45.12`	`pawelsz`	`http://psion.by.ru/psioninside/revoinside/index.htm`
`19:45.14`	`pawelsz`	`8-)`
`19:45.21`	`*** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host81-128-237-47.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`19:45.53`	`pawelsz`	`zachary: :-)`
`19:46.21`	`zachary`	`hey, how's things?`
`19:46.42`	`Wethrin`	`Ho hum. I guess a C program is the only way to go :-/`
`19:47.18`	`zachary`	`Wethrin: Current project?`
`19:47.41`	`Wethrin`	`I need a way of chrooting into a particular directory, the dropping privileges to $RANDOM_USER, and running /bin/sh in the chrooted environment.`
`19:48.45`	`pawelsz`	`zachary: nice, and you?`
`19:48.52`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: just give any shell name in /etc/passwd`
`19:48.57`	`gregj`	`Wethrin: maybe that's wrong`
`19:49.03`	`Wethrin`	`I've tried. Still doesn't work.`
`19:49.10`	`gregj`	`i don't have openBSD here, otherwise i'll try my self`
`19:49.14`	`Wethrin`	`:)`
`19:49.22`	`zachary`	`getting over a cold. Brain feels better, but my throat is still rough.`
`19:49.53`	`Wethrin`	`Will it give me considerably more security to have users in a chroot jail, rather than having full access?`
`19:50.06`	`Wethrin`	`I'm thinking yes, which is why I'm doing it`
`19:50.28`	`pawelsz`	`zachary: i'm trying to put linux on Psion Revo.`
`19:53.14`	`Wethrin`	`Right. Time to go to cinema.`
`19:53.45`	`Wethrin`	`Back in a few hours`
`19:54.11`	`zachary`	`pawelsz: 36Mhz Arm, 8MB ROM, 8 MB RAM?`
`19:54.28`	`pawelsz`	`argh. i have some problems with plptools and irda in my thinkpad.`
`19:55.40`	`pawelsz`	`zachary: exactly.`
`19:55.55`	`JD`	`Wethrin: what you seeing?`
`19:56.06`	`pawelsz`	`i found some nice distribution for this.`
`19:56.27`	`pawelsz`	`with picogui and some apps for this box.`
`19:56.49`	`pawelsz`	`it's called revol.`
`19:57.28`	`pawelsz`	`but fisrt i must have good connection with PC.`
`19:57.49`	`pawelsz`	`to put everything.`
`20:07.06`	`stephen`	`gregj: thanks for the earlier advice. Apparently the problem was solved, but it had to reinstall about half the packages on the system`
`20:16.26`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`20:19.48`	`*** join/#gllug highbury (~steve@81-1-74-183.homechoice.co.uk)`
`20:27.56`	`zachary`	`Wethrin: ping`
`20:34.19`	`highbury`	`finally finished messging around with my partitions on my large disk. managed to avoid losing any data, too :-)`
`20:35.14`	`highbury`	`moral: being avoid if possible, messing around with too many partitioning tools, but if all else fails, blow away partition table definitions, with dd`
`20:37.59`	`Clyphox`	`Up the colonies!`
`20:43.41`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`20:47.26`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`20:48.16`	`Clyphox`	`wb`
`20:48.26`	`*** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-213-171.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`20:48.48`	`Leeds`	`thank you :-)`
`20:51.55`	`highbury`	`lots of yoyo'ing`
`20:52.50`	`Leeds`	`yes... messing with X`
`20:55.44`	`Leeds`	`I can use the ATI accelerated driver, as long as I don't change modes... but then my TV viewing app doesn't work`
`20:56.01`	`Leeds`	`or I can use the free driver, and everything works, but 3d is slow`
`20:58.32`	`pawelsz`	`i have some problem with compilation.`
`20:58.33`	`Leeds`	`and I think I need to replace one of my TiVo's hard drives...`
`20:58.53`	`pawelsz`	`gregj: are you there?`
`21:05.23`	`*** part/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-213-171.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`21:06.39`	`Leeds`	`pawelsz: what's the problem?`
`21:08.16`	`pawelsz`	`Leeds: configure script from plptools want some qt headers, but I have this files.`
`21:08.19`	`pawelsz`	`configure:11724: g++ -o conftest -O2 -O2 -march=i686 -fno-exceptions -fno-check-new -INO -I/usr/X11R6/include -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib conftest.C -lnsl -lqt -lXext -lX11 1>&5`
`21:08.23`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:2: qglobal.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.26`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:3: qapplication.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.28`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:4: qapp.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.31`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:5: qobjcoll.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.34`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:6: qstyle.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.36`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:7: qiconview.h: No such file or directory`
`21:08.36`	`pawelsz`	`[pawelsz@school1-2 SPECS]$ find / -name "qglobal.h" \|grep /usr`
`21:08.39`	`pawelsz`	`conftest.C:9: #error 1`
`21:08.43`	`pawelsz`	`/usr/X11R6/include/qt/qglobal.h`
`21:09.10`	`pawelsz`	`i see Makefiles, and they know where is qt headers.`
`21:09.56`	`Leeds`	`but that g++ line doesn't include the path to the QT headers, does it?`
`21:10.53`	`pawelsz`	`wait the moment.`
`21:12.28`	`gregj`	`export QTDIR=/usr/wherever/qt/is`
`21:12.35`	`gregj`	`before you do ./configure`
`21:13.16`	`gregj`	`it is a bad idea to split qt imo`
`21:13.27`	`gregj`	`it should sit i.e. /usr/qt`
`21:13.29`	`gregj`	`or something`
`21:13.35`	`gregj`	`ok, me goes away`
`21:13.48`	`pawelsz`	`it's doesn`
`21:13.52`	`pawelsz`	`it's doesn't help.`
`21:14.06`	`pawelsz`	`gregj: this qt is from PLD package.`
`21:14.08`	`pawelsz`	`;-)`
`21:14.11`	`gregj`	`export INCLUDE=$INCLUDE:/usr/whatever`
`21:14.24`	`gregj`	`and ./configure should take param QTINCLUDE or something`
`21:14.29`	`gregj`	`./configure --help ;]`
`21:14.31`	`gregj`	`rtfm`
`21:14.35`	`pawelsz`	`:-p`
`21:14.57`	`gregj`	`;P`
`21:15.22`	`gregj`	`and brits of course`
`21:15.46`	`Leeds`	`hmm...`
`21:16.17`	`zachary`	`It's not the Poles or the Troll, not the Jews, maybe the Brits. But it definately is the fault of the Americans!`
`21:16.25`	`gregj`	`yeah`
`21:16.27`	`gregj`	`zachary: ;]`
`21:16.39`	`gregj`	you know what i'm sayin`
`21:22.02`	`stephen`	`anyone know what time tubes run till?`
`21:22.50`	`gregj`	`12.30`
`21:22.52`	`gregj`	`about`
`21:22.57`	`gregj`	`www.tfl.gov.uk`
`21:23.02`	`gregj`	`www.thetube.com`
`21:24.36`	`Marios_`	`is the tube gonna be operational on Xmas day ?`
`21:25.55`	`Leeds`	`I would guess so... I think it's active every day, but runs a reduced service (i.e. less and/or slower trains) on holidays`
`21:25.55`	`SpudULike`	`No! Always shut on xmas day.`
`21:26.00`	`Leeds`	`ah!`
`21:26.13`	`Marios_`	`Spud << are you sure?`
`21:26.19`	`Leeds`	`I'm wrong... bah - maybe it's because I'm a Yorkshireman! :-)`
`21:27.17`	`SpudULike`	`Yeah Marios_, unless they do something special this year. Which I doubt very much!`
`21:27.38`	`Marios_`	`ohhh`
`21:27.48`	`Marios_`	`and taxi costs too much`
`21:28.04`	`SpudULike`	`Where to and from?`
`21:29.03`	`Marios_`	`Heathrow to Paddington`
`21:29.23`	`SpudULike`	`Now that might be different.`
`21:29.53`	`Marios_`	`I always take the tube from Heathrow to central London`
`21:30.10`	`SpudULike`	`Heathrow Express isn't tube and is special enough that it might run. If not there is the Airbus services.`
`21:30.21`	`pawelsz`	`Marios_: Picadely? ;-)`
`21:30.45`	`SpudULike`	`The tube is the cheapest of options, so that's what I would use if it were running.`
`21:31.26`	`Marios_`	`I see`
`21:31.38`	`Marios_`	`well I should check the Heathrow Express then`
`21:31.46`	`stephen`	`problem was that I probably wouldn't reach my destination until 23:00, which wouldn't give me much time to play with if I wanted to get home again tonight`
`21:31.57`	`SpudULike`	`Bus would be the best for me on XMas day, about 6 quid and a few hours travel time.`
`21:32.26`	`Marios_`	`it is the first year arriving in London on Xmas day`
`21:32.40`	`Marios_`	`usually I am there by 23rd`
`21:32.42`	`eye69`	`Heh, no wonder the modem has been extremely unstable...the cable was severed`
`21:32.46`	`SpudULike`	`Taxi would be more like 80 quid.`
`21:33.03`	`stephen`	`evening eye69`
`21:33.21`	`eye69`	`Evening stephen`
`21:33.57`	`SpudULike`	`What you will do in Paddington on XMas day is another question all together ! ;-)`
`21:34.06`	`Marios_`	`80 ?? is it double the usual rate?`
`21:34.15`	`eye69`	`A supposed-to-be flat handshake tone sounded like me after an evening with whisky`
`21:34.28`	`Marios_`	`Spud << i am staying in a hotel there ;)`
`21:35.18`	`Clyphox`	`I'm going to try to get a decent nights sleep.. night all`
`21:35.30`	`*** join/#gllug murb (~murble@darwin.home.boughton.org.uk)`
`21:36.01`	`Marios_`	`nighty Clyphox`
`21:39.29`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`doh`
`21:39.58`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`:-(`
`21:40.38`	`eye69`	`tough`
`21:40.42`	`eye69`	`though, damnit`
`21:42.19`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`eye69 : where?`
`21:42.36`	`eye69`	`resuDaed\|afk: Ongar`
`21:42.50`	`eye69`	`Will be moving to Brentwood within a week though.`
`21:43.01`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`:-)`
`21:43.08`	`eye69`	`Heh, no.`
`21:43.29`	`eye69`	`About 35 minutes on the metroline from L.pool st`
`21:43.41`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`bring me some kybds when you come over though`
`21:43.46`	`resuDaed\|afk`	`:-)`
`21:45.24`	`resuDaed`	`eye69 : for servers, what is the best flavour of debian to use? (educated guess -- not sid`
`21:45.25`	`resuDaed`	`)`
`21:45.32`	`resuDaed`	`but woody is to stale atm`
`21:46.27`	`eye69`	`Depends on the type of server`
`21:46.49`	`eye69`	`Woody is runnable, with some picks from either apt-get.org or built from testing sources`
`21:47.08`	`resuDaed`	`not inteded for physical access in times of problems`
`21:47.26`	`resuDaed`	`what are the main flavours of debian?`
`21:47.34`	`eye69`	`Stable, Testing, Sid`
`21:47.40`	`eye69`	`In order of freshness`
`21:47.47`	`resuDaed`	`testing = sarge?`
`21:47.58`	`eye69`	`Currently yes`
`21:48.21`	`resuDaed`	`brb -- switching screens`
`21:49.25`	`resuDaed`	`back`
`21:50.39`	`resuDaed`	`how often do debian make a stable release?`
`21:50.47`	`resuDaed`	`been almost 12 months now`
`21:51.06`	`eye69`	`When it's ready. :)`
`21:51.24`	`Leeds`	`or to put it another way... rarely`
`21:51.31`	`resuDaed`	`well, they certainly take their time over it`
`21:51.44`	`resuDaed`	`how stable is testing?`
`21:51.58`	`eye69`	`There are two things that I think could be newer...PHP and MySQL`
`21:52.19`	`resuDaed`	`ah, both are used, and php needs to be fresh`
`21:53.04`	`eye69`	`When it comes to Testing/Sid, I would recommend doing taking care of the updates every two days`
`21:53.33`	`eye69`	`Stable and testing get security upgrades, while sid only gets updated when the upstream gets fixed`
`21:54.03`	`resuDaed`	`most of my unstable machines cron updates every night`
`21:54.21`	`eye69`	`Cron updates? Ouch.`
`21:54.32`	`resuDaed`	`only the downloading part`
`21:54.40`	`eye69`	`Ok, that's fine.`
`21:55.38`	`resuDaed`	`if I am satisfied, the machines apt/cache gets repopulated`
`21:57.33`	`resuDaed`	`whats the @mymessengers?`
`21:58.09`	`eye69`	`Stupid thing. :)`
`21:58.19`	`resuDaed`	`I'd gathered that much, just the sig?`
`21:58.23`	`eye69`	`Yeah.`
`22:01.04`	`Leeds`	`bah - learn a real language instead :-)`
`22:01.12`	`resuDaed`	`Leeds : like?`
`22:01.21`	`Leeds`	`Python...`
`22:01.24`	`resuDaed`	`python? done that`
`22:01.34`	`resuDaed`	`perl is still more widley used`
`22:02.11`	`resuDaed`	`and I prefer perl syntax`
`22:02.25`	`Leeds`	`bah again`
`22:02.32`	`resuDaed`	`more standard like`
`22:02.36`	`eye69`	`I have a problem with Python's "plain" syntax.`
`22:02.44`	`resuDaed`	`eye69 : same here`
`22:02.46`	`Leeds`	`being able to read Perl can be helpful sometimes... being able to write Python is more so`
`22:03.13`	`resuDaed`	`I can read perl, just havn't really got to writing it yet`
`22:03.25`	`eye69`	`Leeds: I wouldn't have anything against learning Python, but I currently have more use for Perl.`
`22:05.40`	`Leeds`	`each to their own... even if you're wrong...`
`22:05.46`	`eye69`	`:)`
`22:58.15`	`*** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-200-82.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`23:15.43`	`Marios_`	`heheeheh`
`23:15.53`	`Marios_`	`how is it ?`
`23:20.23`	`Leeds`	`mmm... pizza`
`23:21.43`	`gregj`	`no, pizza is bad`
`23:22.46`	`Leeds`	`no, pizza is good`
`23:22.59`	`resuDaed`	`Marios_ : not bad`
`23:23.15`	`resuDaed`	`after overcoming some h/ware problems`
`23:23.46`	`gregj`	`so i am typing rather slow now`
`23:26.57`	`*** join/#gllug Tarragon (~john@public1-stoc3-3-cust204.manc.broadband.ntl.com)`
`23:28.30`	`Marios_`	`does it have good hardware detection?`
`23:29.18`	`Tarragon`	`Almost a week without cable access - Arrrrrrgggghhh Stupid NTL ranout of IP addresses`
`23:29.24`	`highbury`	`wb Tarragon`
`23:29.39`	`highbury`	`you jest surely`
`23:29.57`	`*** part/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-200-82.access.uk.tiscali.com)`
`23:31.39`	`highbury`	`next time never disconnect!`
`23:33.01`	`Tarragon`	`No. Linux box said - DHCP --- no addesses, backgrounding job. NTL day one said nope, we can see the box, must be Linux otherwise everyone would have complained. Day two having BOUGHT and loaded MS Me said must be your cabling. NTL rewire, day four, 3 yes three new cable boxes. Day 4 Of its a synch problem, we have reset server overnight. Day five engineer finally admitted run out of addresses`
`23:33.34`	`Tarragon`	`Previous uptime was 85 days. Have ordered ADSL from Jason.`
`23:34.26`	`Tarragon`	`five days - 203 Gllug messages`
`23:36.34`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:36.34`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:36.34`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:37.59`	`Marios_`	`Tarragon ...how much per month ?`
`23:39.24`	`murb`	`Tarragon: makes you want to buy an assult rifle and shoot up their hq doesn't it?`
`23:39.34`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:39.34`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:39.34`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:40.26`	`Tarragon`	`�23 for 512 with static IPs`
`23:40.43`	`Marios_`	`how many IPs ?`
`23:40.54`	`Tarragon`	`murb: only for the first two days. after that I just pitied them.`
`23:40.59`	`Tarragon`	`Marios_: 8`
`23:41.03`	`Marios_`	`cool`
`23:41.15`	`murb`	`Tarragon: one for everymacehin in the house?`
`23:41.19`	`Marios_`	`is Cable available everywhere in London ?`
`23:41.37`	`highbury`	`no only limited parts Marios_`
`23:41.54`	`murb`	`Marios_: Tarragon lives in Greater London, for very large values of Greater`
`23:41.57`	`highbury`	`ADSL is more common than cable now`
`23:42.53`	`highbury`	`murb: on that basis so does Marios_`
`23:43.27`	`Marios_`	`hahahahahahahahha`
`23:43.34`	`Marios_`	`I liked that`
`23:43.43`	`Tarragon`	`200 miles is still London isn't it? We still have road congestion, although bike riding is a little easier`
`23:43.45`	`murb`	`highbury: indeed.`
`23:44.22`	`Marios_`	`so what do you guys have for TV in areas there is no cable?`
`23:44.37`	`murble`	`Marios: oh we read newspapers and books instead.`
`23:44.44`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:44.44`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:44.44`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:44.55`	`Marios_`	`lol`
`23:44.56`	`murble`	`and sometimes ever irc`
`23:45.20`	`Marios_`	`how many channels can you get with the traditional Antenna ?`
`23:45.23`	`Tarragon`	`UK TV is usually RF or sat. BBC is free to view once you have a TV license`
`23:45.33`	`highbury`	`over 50% of population use "Sky" which is satellite`
`23:45.45`	`Marios_`	`Sky`
`23:45.47`	`murble`	`highbury: i think that is a massive exaduration`
`23:46.07`	`highbury`	`nope, according to the last set of figures I heard`
`23:46.22`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:46.22`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:46.22`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:46.23`	`Tarragon`	`BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, Ch5. ITV is supposidly area specific.`
`23:46.23`	`highbury`	`of course I also distruct the firgure to`
`23:46.29`	`Marios_`	`and you can have the SAT dish even when you rent a house ?`
`23:47.15`	`highbury`	`85% of the population can receive Digital Transmissions, receiving a collection of about 12 Channels mostly BBC, for free`
`23:47.24`	`murble`	`highbury: combined satalite+cable is only 40% of households`
`23:47.37`	`highbury`	`but everybody has to pay BBC a license fee`
`23:47.45`	`murble`	`highbury: http://www.statistics.gov.uk`
`23:47.49`	`murble`	`highbury: no they don't.`
`23:47.59`	`murble`	`and it isn't a BBC license fee`
`23:48.08`	`murble`	`it is a television license fee.`
`23:48.10`	`highbury`	`its paid to them!`
`23:48.16`	`Marios_`	`Digital Transmissions you mean cable ??`
`23:48.21`	`highbury`	`to pay for BBC TV and Radio`
`23:48.31`	`highbury`	`no diggital signals over aerial`
`23:48.46`	`Marios_`	`ohhhh we don't have that`
`23:48.48`	`highbury`	`cable and satellite are non-free`
`23:49.23`	`murble`	`highbury: cable can be free, as in they send normal channels unecrypted even if nobody in the house subscribes`
`23:49.23`	`Marios_`	`so traditional RF is VHF and UHF ....what is the Digital Transmission ?`
`23:49.23`	`highbury`	`Marios_, there are plans for the US to go over to digital signals in the next few years`
`23:49.50`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:49.50`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:49.50`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:49.52`	`murble`	`highbury: satellite is free if you don't want the murchdoc crap`
`23:49.53`	`highbury`	`its just the way its encoded, not on what frequency it uses, I believe`
`23:50.04`	`Tarragon`	`No. You can get free satellite. Pay for TV license, Pay for digibox, pay for dish, ask for free to view card`
`23:50.05`	`murble`	`highbury: dvb-t`
`23:50.19`	`murble`	`Tarragon: that no longer exists, or atleast you have to pay for it now.`
`23:50.33`	`Marios_`	`so for Digital Transmission you guys use the same Antennas ?`
`23:50.36`	`murble`	`since the bbc sends all their stuff from astra 2d in the clear`
`23:50.44`	`murble`	`Marios: for DVB-T yes`
`23:50.54`	`murble`	`for DVB-S you need a dish`
`23:51.10`	`Marios_`	`God you have many different systems`
`23:51.18`	`murble`	`Marios: the goverment wants everyone to move to digital so they can then auction the spare spectrum...`
`23:51.22`	`highbury`	`most people use Sky's satallite dish, but it isn't very sinsitive for non-sky satellites`
`23:51.26`	`*** join/#gllug simonmorris (~simonmorr@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`23:51.37`	`murble`	`highbury: sky don't own any satellites...`
`23:51.48`	`murble`	`they rent transponder splace from Astra`
`23:51.51`	`Marios_`	`is there any guide on the web for all these different options ??`
`23:51.53`	`murble`	`as do the BBC.`
`23:52.02`	`highbury`	`well,. the ones they use anyway....`
`23:52.06`	`murble`	`Marios_: http://www.freeview.co.uk for a start`
`23:52.15`	`Tarragon`	`No still exists but they really hate to give you the card. You have to insist. Sky uses the weird encryption so to get everything you need two decoding boxes and a moveable dish.`
`23:52.19`	`murble`	`Marios: and the bbc have some techinical stuff abou their channels.`
`23:52.30`	`murble`	`Tarragon: it is being turned off at the moment.`
`23:52.47`	`murble`	`Tarragon: or 2 LNBs`
`23:52.53`	`highbury`	`http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/`
`23:53.43`	`murble`	`Marios: and some people don't have any tv`
`23:54.04`	`murble`	`if i wanted lots of channels where i live , i'd need to get it via non terrestria means anyway.`
`23:54.08`	`Marios_`	`hehhehhe this can be an option`
`23:54.15`	`Tarragon`	`Even with 2 LNBs you would only get two sats. UK London can see about 30 with a moveable 80cm dish`
`23:54.16`	`Marios_`	`I have a TV tuner that supports PAL`
`23:54.19`	`murble`	`Marios: I didn't have a tv as a student`
`23:54.22`	`Marios_`	`I hope it will work in London`
`23:54.37`	`murble`	`Marios: where are you planning to live in London?`
`23:54.45`	`Marios_`	`next August`
`23:54.58`	`murble`	`where not when.`
`23:54.58`	`Marios_`	`oh sorry`
`23:55.08`	`Marios_`	`well don't know yet`
`23:55.13`	`Marios_`	`I like many places there`
`23:55.17`	`Marios_`	`I can't decide`
`23:55.40`	`Marios_`	`I wanna stay around West End`
`23:55.40`	`highbury`	`its probably not worth shipping a tv over, plus voltage might be a problem`
`23:55.49`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:55.49`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:55.49`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:55.53`	`highbury`	`why round West End?`
`23:55.57`	`Marios_`	`highburry I am not talking about TV...I have TV tuner PC card`
`23:56.04`	`Marios_`	`I like it there`
`23:56.31`	`highbury`	`what do you call the West End?`
`23:57.18`	`Marios_`	`WC and EC postcodes`
`23:57.20`	`murble`	`yeah, how far west, hamersmith distance?`
`23:57.25`	`murble`	`s/m/mm/`
`23:58.18`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com)`
`23:58.18`	`*** join/#gllug Wethrin (~ecoli@64.246.28.105) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:58.18`	`*** join/#gllug ragnor (~ragnor@213.229.183.2) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`23:58.18`	`Marios_`	`or maybe not exactly that ....let's say ZONE 1`
`23:58.47`	`highbury`	`They can be expensive areas to rent in`
`23:58.51`	`murb`	`Marios: zone 1 will probably been quite expensive..`
`23:59.07`	`murb`	`Marios: the cheapest place in z1 is probaly south or the river arround elephant and castle area.`
`23:59.15`	`murb`	`s/or/of/`
`23:59.24`	`Marios_`	`yeah this is true`
`23:59.30`	`highbury`	`great Pizza place there`
`23:59.41`	`murb`	`Marios: you have 100s of pounds for rent each month?`
`23:59.42`	`Marios_`	`well I have to look for flat first`
`23:59.43`	`highbury`	`but not partitcularly safe`
`23:59.48`	`murb`	`Marios: or are you going to share?`

Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with blootbot logs, split per channel, etc.