| 00:00.46 | Leeds | he should just have bounced it with a polite message... either to http-ify it, or just pull it down to jpg or png or something... |
| 00:03.27 | formi | "highly-biased moderation point", yes Leeds, we CAN believe you |
| 00:04.03 | formi | is tet here? |
| 00:05.40 | Leeds | interesting... satellite internet over Astra using existing Sky dish... |
| 00:06.23 | murble | Leeds: yeah, you can do some quite funky stuff like that. |
| 00:06.55 | murble | (their assets got purchases by BT Broadcasting solutions |
| 00:06.57 | murble | ) |
| 00:07.15 | murble | oh and AstraNET is rather expensive and crap. |
| 00:08.25 | Leeds | http://www.avcbroadband.com/ |
| 00:10.11 | murble | yeah that is a very old service. |
| 00:10.23 | Leeds | launching next month? |
| 00:10.27 | murble | Leeds: yeah :) |
| 00:10.44 | murble | companies have been offoring that kind of stuff anywhwer in footprint of western europe for many years |
| 00:10.57 | murble | http://www.europeonline.com |
| 00:12.13 | Leeds | right, but that's not astra |
| 00:12.59 | Leeds | hence can't be done with existing Sky dish |
| 00:14.59 | new2unix | leeds, slackware is often represented by the face of a man with a pipe. who is that guy and whats the history behind the pipe? |
| 00:15.09 | murble | sounds like they are just astra net resellers as well, which i sin't great! |
| 00:15.43 | Leeds | new2unix: he's called Bob... it's a Discordia thing AFAIK |
| 00:16.23 | Leeds | ibot eris |
| 00:16.25 | | Leeds: no idea |
| 00:17.19 | murble | Leeds: well they are based at bezadorf, and they use astra transponders... |
| 00:17.59 | murble | Leeds: no church of the subgenius |
| 00:18.15 | Leeds | murble: and the difference is? |
| 00:18.38 | murble | Leeds: get your comedy cults right! |
| 00:19.03 | Leeds | I thought the church of subgenius and Discordians were pretty much the same thnig |
| 00:20.08 | new2unix | ok. i think ive found something of relevance to "bob": http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/answers/questions/questions.html |
| 00:20.37 | murble | s/a$/i&/ |
| 00:21.21 | murble | my telephone line is being broken |
| 00:21.31 | murble | like dsl fails, then pick up phone and not even a dialing tone |
| 00:21.32 | formi | well, stop breaking it |
| 00:21.57 | murble | I'll have to take it up with my account manager, i'm sure this wasn't mentioned in the SLA |
| 00:22.14 | murble | I've had 5 minutes already there goes their 5 9s |
| 00:22.26 | murble | :) |
| 00:22.37 | Leeds | you have an SLA? really? |
| 00:22.54 | Leeds | new2unix: remember that none of it is meant to be taken seriously... apart, of course, from the serious bits |
| 00:23.05 | murble | Leeds: no, i'm joking. |
| 00:24.48 | Cope | Okaaay, so why might I suddenly be unable to switch to workspaces 1 and 4 on mykeyboard, but 2 and 3 are fine, and the mouse interface works? (fluxbox) |
| 00:27.29 | highbury | so far, only two problems with my announce posting, a spelling one, and a List-ID one :-) Please take a final look at it before I send it to the main list. |
| 00:28.01 | highbury | I'm also updating the meeting web page to match the text version, which is more uptodate |
| 00:31.06 | Cope | hmm... now its working again. |
| 00:31.25 | formi | cope, restart fluxbox, it's painless |
| 00:31.43 | Cope | formi: Its working again now :o) |
| 00:31.50 | formi | mine starts bugging with the mouse focus, after 2-3 weeks |
| 00:32.02 | Cope | formi: But it shouldn't do naughty things like that anyway. |
| 00:32.18 | formi | what are you running? distro |
| 00:32.46 | Cope | debian testing/unstable |
| 00:32.57 | formi | well, no comment |
| 00:35.29 | formi | runs quite well on my ex-mandrake and now on freebsd |
| 00:36.05 | Cope | Just a small piece of funkiness. |
| 00:36.23 | formi | small equal to beautiful |
| 00:37.53 | formi | im thinking of tweaking the conf, to press a certain keys and bring a certain app to the current desktop, and then press another one and returned |
| 00:38.18 | formi | don't exactly know if it can be done without tweaking the source code though |
| 00:54.58 | formi | TV Nauhgtiest Moments is on |
| 01:00.40 | new2unix | leeds, quite funny that. :) |
| 01:01.10 | Leeds | yes :-) |
| 01:02.09 | Leeds | now... bed or Tescos... the eternal question... |
| 01:02.17 | Cope | BX Tesco! |
| 01:02.47 | Cope | We should have a NWLLUG meet in Brent Cross Tesco. |
| 01:02.55 | Leeds | heh |
| 01:03.00 | Leeds | at 1am? |
| 01:03.05 | Cope | 2am |
| 01:03.26 | Leeds | it doesn't take me that long to get there at this time of the morning... |
| 01:03.43 | Cope | True |
| 01:21.20 | highbury | how about Colney Hatch or Finchley Central? |
| 01:41.20 | Leeds | dunno where Colney Hatch is... but Finchley is okay |
| 01:41.49 | formi | sounds like a dodgy car to me |
| 01:42.00 | Leeds | heh |
| 01:43.24 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mkoumide@24.231.225.197) |
| 01:43.34 | Marios_ | hello !! |
| 01:43.37 | Leeds | morning Marios_ :-) |
| 01:43.51 | Marios_ | what's new Leeds? |
| 01:45.11 | Leeds | been a good day at work (except I left my laptop there)... and I've hopefully solved my courier problem |
| 01:45.42 | Marios_ | cool |
| 01:45.47 | *** join/#gllug BorgBaby (BorgBaby@host217-43-64-232.range217-43.btcentralplus.com) |
| 01:45.50 | Marios_ | I have been very busy lately |
| 01:45.57 | Leeds | in a good way, I hope |
| 01:46.04 | Cope | Leeds: You were having trouble with an IMAP server? |
| 01:46.12 | Marios_ | end of the semester ...that means lots of project are due |
| 01:46.25 | ar | hi |
| 01:46.32 | Marios_ | Hi ar |
| 01:46.34 | Leeds | Cope: heh, no... CityLink |
| 01:46.40 | Cope | Leeds: Ah yeah |
| 01:46.58 | ar | how are you, Marios? |
| 01:47.15 | Marios_ | ar << fine how are you? |
| 01:47.35 | Leeds | called the shop this morning, explained the situation - the woman said "can you hold while I call CityLink?", came back a few minutes later and said it was all sorted and they'd deliver it tomorrow (today) morning before 9:30 |
| 01:47.36 | ar | not too bad - been out drinking, so i'm kinda mellow atm :) |
| 01:48.01 | Marios_ | ar << that's nice |
| 01:48.17 | ar | MySQL is nice :) |
| 01:48.20 | Leeds | Cope: to play? |
| 01:48.40 | Marios_ | what do you expect by courrier? |
| 01:49.23 | Cope | Leeds: Yeah. |
| 01:49.23 | Leeds | Marios_: I expect them to know if they're trying to deliver a parcel, and I expect them to do something about it when they screw up |
| 01:49.56 | ar | at least it isn't HL |
| 01:49.59 | ar | DHL even |
| 01:50.23 | Leeds | true... I've normally had pretty good experiences with CityLink... |
| 01:50.36 | Leeds | hmm... Bruce Perens is having a rant |
| 01:50.41 | Marios_ | I see |
| 01:50.54 | Cope | DH Hell, Shitty Link and Parcel Farce. |
| 01:51.05 | Cope | I used to use Interlink Express. |
| 01:51.08 | Cope | 'That was good. |
| 01:51.14 | ar | TNT seem to be alright |
| 01:51.35 | Leeds | I've found - for smaller things at least - that you can do worse than Royal Mail (Consignia!) |
| 01:52.03 | Marios_ | I usually use UPS |
| 01:52.06 | Leeds | not ParcelFarce... bog-standard post |
| 01:52.58 | Marios_ | the other day I was expecting a parcel from Greece.. 2nd day or something by Fedex..and it delayed in London for 2 days |
| 01:53.02 | Leeds | to be honest - I rarely send things... so I'm more interested in receiving - and the Post Office collection point is quite close by :-) |
| 01:56.59 | Marios_ | where in London are you staying?> |
| 01:57.17 | Leeds | you mean living? |
| 01:57.56 | Leeds | Hendon - north-west |
| 01:58.11 | Marios_ | yeah |
| 01:58.19 | Marios_ | hmm |
| 01:58.36 | Marios_ | do you have UPS close by? |
| 01:58.54 | Leeds | I don't know... |
| 01:59.41 | Leeds | UPS aren't really that big in the UK... DHL and FedEx are the biggest, I think |
| 01:59.51 | Marios_ | ohh I see |
| 02:00.11 | highbury | I've got a UPS under my desk :-) |
| 02:00.46 | Leeds | and we've all got plenty of kit for delivering packets :-) |
| 02:00.52 | Marios_ | lol |
| 02:01.24 | Marios_ | ohh highbury...I saw your message last night about XHTML |
| 02:02.44 | *** part/#gllug formi (~formi@82-35-34-114.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 02:02.46 | *** join/#gllug formi (~formi@82-35-34-114.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 02:03.08 | highbury | I just tried updating the GLLUG web pages, and basically got fed up with transition problems |
| 02:03.36 | Marios_ | what do you use? |
| 02:04.07 | highbury | ie. from unvalidated html->validated 4.01->XHTML1.0->... |
| 02:04.17 | highbury | gvim? |
| 02:04.30 | Marios_ | yeah..there many changes |
| 02:04.30 | highbury | and validation services from w3c.org |
| 02:04.40 | Marios_ | but they are all small fixes |
| 02:04.49 | highbury | and somethings are just not stabilised yet |
| 02:05.08 | Marios_ | it does worth it to go over and make the changes |
| 02:05.08 | Cope | highbury: Did you get me saying I'd happily give a talk on css? |
| 02:05.18 | highbury | so I just back out, and will leave it till the standard stabilises |
| 02:05.32 | Marios_ | isn't stabilised yet? |
| 02:05.35 | highbury | Jan 24? |
| 02:05.59 | Marios_ | Cope << give it end of December |
| 02:06.04 | Marios_ | I will be there ;) |
| 02:06.33 | Cope | highbury: Jan 24 works for me. |
| 02:07.59 | highbury | ok Cope, please send an email to gllugadmin@gllug.org.uk when you have some details we can put on a meeting/announcement web page |
| 02:08.25 | highbury | I have to go to bed now... nn |
| 02:08.28 | formi | well I shall go and see if I sleep, |
| 02:08.42 | Marios_ | goodnight |
| 02:08.46 | ar | night |
| 02:08.59 | formi | I hope I won't see, because I'm asleep |
| 02:09.00 | Leeds | night |
| 02:09.19 | formi | night folks |
| 02:09.23 | *** part/#gllug formi (~formi@82-35-34-114.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 02:37.31 | Marios_ | Cope ? |
| 02:37.36 | Marios_ | I guess you are here |
| 02:37.37 | Cope | Dude |
| 02:37.41 | Marios_ | hehehhehe |
| 02:37.51 | Marios_ | you are the only one staying up late |
| 02:37.54 | new2unix | gosh, dont you folks ever sleep? |
| 02:38.10 | Marios_ | for me it is only 9:38 |
| 02:38.38 | Cope | Ah well, I don't have to get up early. |
| 02:38.53 | new2unix | here its only 02:37am :) |
| 02:43.30 | Marios_ | hehhehe |
| 02:43.33 | Marios_ | still early |
| 03:01.44 | ar | night all |
| 03:02.43 | Marios_ | bye ar |
| 05:05.53 | new2unix | anybody up still? |
| 05:07.43 | Clyphox | I woke up and hour ago |
| 05:07.58 | new2unix | why? go back to bed. |
| 05:08.34 | new2unix | is it a full moon or what? whats with all these vampires out and about on a rainy night like tihs. hah |
| 05:11.53 | Clyphox | no I've just been asleep at 10PM sharp for the last 3 days |
| 05:12.05 | Clyphox | its almost getting habitual.. weird |
| 05:12.37 | Clyphox | I have insomnia.. so 6 hours strait sleep (As I've had the last 3 days) is so wonderfull :-) |
| 05:12.58 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mkoumide@24.231.225.197) |
| 05:13.00 | new2unix | ive been going to bed at about 11am, which is even more weird. |
| 05:13.14 | Marios_ | Hello guys |
| 05:13.27 | new2unix | i had 3weeks holiday to take before the year runs out. |
| 05:13.31 | new2unix | hi Marios_. |
| 05:13.59 | Clyphox | hoi |
| 05:14.38 | new2unix | funny. you'd think the UK mirrors would be much faster at a time like this. |
| 05:16.49 | *** join/#gllug Marios (~mkoumides@24.231.225.197) |
| 05:17.12 | new2unix | Marios Houdini? |
| 05:18.35 | Marios | ?? |
| 05:18.40 | Marios | Houdini ? |
| 05:18.57 | Marios | :) |
| 05:19.18 | new2unix | Harry Houdini was a great escapologist. He was always coming ang going, much like yourself |
| 05:20.22 | Marios | heheheeh |
| 05:20.49 | Marios | I was having trouble with my fiancee's Windows box |
| 05:21.34 | new2unix | what is it with Fiance's and windows? |
| 05:22.01 | new2unix | why do they always sway towards the dark side? |
| 05:22.23 | Marios | heheheh I just uninstall Internet Explorer from her PC |
| 05:22.45 | Marios | at least I found a way to uninstall |
| 05:24.09 | new2unix | uninstalling IE from windows is like removing nautilus from Gnome. dont do it! |
| 05:25.09 | Marios | NO |
| 05:25.11 | Marios | I wanna do it |
| 05:25.18 | Marios | I just can't stand it |
| 05:25.37 | new2unix | but it isnt yours. its your fiance's. ;o) |
| 05:27.39 | Marios | it is on my Network |
| 05:28.22 | new2unix | ahh. an original BOFH? lol |
| 05:47.46 | new2unix | wow. just caught myself dozing off. i better go catch some sleep before i accidently press that big red button with my elbow. |
| 06:40.21 | *** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host81-129-55-32.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 07:15.03 | Clyphox | [yawn] |
| 08:09.13 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 08:10.09 | Clyphox | moin |
| 08:11.19 | Leeds | boker tov |
| 08:15.47 | zachary | moin |
| 08:50.34 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 08:50.45 | mozrat | ibot lart Ken Livingston |
| 08:51.08 | mozrat | Thank you ibot...... Bonjour everyone! |
| 08:51.22 | zachary | mozrat: he probably already does! |
| 08:51.30 | mozrat | How ironic |
| 08:52.55 | mozrat | ping Jenson |
| 08:58.06 | Clyphox | Why ironic? |
| 08:59.56 | mozrat | Hmm, yes.. ironic isn't the correct word. |
| 09:35.23 | *** join/#gllug ar (~ar@bob.nooneishere.co.uk) |
| 09:46.40 | Leeds | well... it's past 9:30 and I don't see my hard drive... |
| 09:47.29 | ar | is this a new hard drive or a replacement? |
| 09:47.46 | Leeds | um, both :-) |
| 09:47.56 | Leeds | it's a new one to replace a dying one |
| 09:48.23 | Leeds | oh, you mean is it a warrenty replacement or something? no, it's new |
| 09:48.52 | ar | i had issues getting my replacement from Maxtor, carriers fault |
| 09:49.10 | ar | what capacity? |
| 09:49.18 | Leeds | this is a Maxtor, and the carrier has been screwing me around :-) |
| 09:49.19 | Leeds | 120Gb |
| 09:49.24 | Leeds | it's for my TiVo |
| 09:51.32 | Leeds | it's to replace the 40Gb drive it came with (which I've since supplemented with a 60Gb anyway) which isn't in a great state |
| 09:53.51 | Leeds | and the shop is currently showing a 40Gb drive for 40 quid... I paid 60 quid for a 120Gb drive... |
| 09:54.17 | ar | wow |
| 09:54.28 | ar | thats pretty cheap |
| 09:54.45 | Leeds | yup :-) that's why I bought it... |
| 09:55.00 | ar | what you got in your comp? |
| 09:55.45 | Leeds | my desktop box has a 4Gb SCSI root drive (which I need to get rid of, I think - it's 5 years old) and a 60Gb IDE drive |
| 09:56.52 | Leeds | my 'server' has 4 IDE hard drives - a 4Gb or so one for root, and 3 others tied together into a 205Gb virtual drive |
| 09:57.42 | Leeds | plus 100Gb in the TiVo (getting upped to 180 soon), 80GB in my laptop and about 8.5Gb in my SPARC box |
| 09:58.30 | Leeds | in fact - this new drive will take me over the 0.5Tb limit at home... bloody hell :-) |
| 09:59.41 | ar | nice :) |
| 10:00.23 | Leeds | thing is - you could put 4 120Gb IDE drives in one machine and have almost 0.5Tb for under 300 quid :-) |
| 10:01.42 | ar | we've got 2 120GB drives in our server here |
| 10:02.11 | ar | my desktop has a 160GB and a 60GB |
| 10:02.44 | Leeds | we've got something stupid like 4-5 Tb at work... for about 35 of us to share |
| 10:04.08 | ar | it probably won't be too long until ppl routinely have 1TB on a desktop |
| 10:04.27 | mozrat | Hello guys... quick question if I may. Debian installation trying to install the locales package from testing. |
| 10:04.34 | mozrat | It fails with the following message: |
| 10:04.37 | mozrat | lt_LT.UFT-8.../usr/share/i18n/locales/lt_LT:2156: LC_TIME: unknown character in field `abday' |
| 10:04.37 | mozrat | /usr/share/i18n/locales/lt_LT:2160: LC_TIME: unknown character in field `day' |
| 10:04.58 | mozrat | and more lines of the same |
| 10:05.20 | Leeds | no idea - don't use Debian |
| 10:05.44 | mozrat | Any chance of you installing it, learning everything and telling me the answer? |
| 10:05.52 | mozrat | this morning? |
| 10:06.05 | Leeds | let me check my diary... |
| 10:06.49 | Leeds | (by the way, "don't use Debian" was both a statement about me, and a piece of advice :-) ) |
| 10:07.01 | mozrat | ibot lart Leeds |
| 10:07.07 | mozrat | :- |
| 10:07.12 | mozrat | much better |
| 10:08.01 | mozrat | #debian is such a mess of noise and random questions, not many answers |
| 10:08.53 | mozrat | Oh well -- thanks anyway :-) |
| 10:09.10 | Leeds | if it's in testing, surely it would have been reported on the Debian lists? |
| 10:09.17 | ar | #gentoo is far more useful :) |
| 10:09.57 | Leeds | oh, that's very possible... but the question was a Debian installation question |
| 10:10.19 | mozrat | true, true. oh well. no java for me at the moment |
| 10:10.31 | ar | does it affect java? |
| 10:11.07 | Leeds | ah, now... you didn't say it was a Java question :-) |
| 10:11.43 | ar | lol |
| 10:11.49 | mozrat | Well I'm trying to install j2re1.4 from a 3rd party site.. it depends on the locales version in testing (i'm currently using stable) and won't install without it. |
| 10:12.05 | mozrat | locales doesn't install without crapping out with that error |
| 10:12.13 | Leeds | is the 3rd party site java.sun.com? |
| 10:12.21 | mozrat | Hang on... can I hear Leeds laughing? |
| 10:12.45 | mozrat | deb http://jopa.studentenweb.org/debian ./ |
| 10:13.02 | Leeds | how about getting it from the source then? :-) |
| 10:13.17 | Leeds | rather than some dodgy 4th-party packaged thing |
| 10:14.08 | mozrat | Umm.. some guy suggested it on the mailing list as the way to go. Possible compulsive liar |
| 10:14.44 | Leeds | see... this is where my "Bah! Debian!" comes out to play again :-) |
| 10:15.44 | Leeds | I just think that if you're going to get Java - get it from Sun (or IBM or whatever if you must) |
| 10:16.10 | mozrat | I'd accept that if I knew other distros didn't get tangled in some sort of "dependancy hell" or another. Show me a distro that doesn't do that and I'll swop over |
| 10:16.21 | Leeds | or Feb even |
| 10:16.31 | Leeds | I manage my own dependencies by hand |
| 10:16.49 | Leeds | I don't rely on a company or hundreds of random volunteers to do it for me |
| 10:17.23 | ar | i've not had dependency problems with gentoo |
| 10:19.03 | Leeds | I don't do that either... |
| 10:20.50 | mozrat | absolutely.. i'll never fall for that one again |
| 10:20.59 | Leeds | heh |
| 10:21.53 | mozrat | I'm still waiting for my $200,000,000. It'll be here by Xmas, |
| 10:23.30 | ar | you've got to wonder if anyone tries to take them up on their offer |
| 10:25.03 | Leeds | yes |
| 10:25.29 | Leeds | people do... and since they're gangsters, people have been robbed, hurt and even killed pursuing it |
| 10:30.06 | mozrat | Theres a site setup for the victims of the scam -- http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ -- use of the delete key would be a good prevention mechanism |
| 10:35.47 | Leeds | argh!!!! |
| 10:36.04 | Leeds | fucking parcel is on a "delivery before 12" thing now - not "delivery before 9:30" as promised |
| 10:38.22 | ar | only 1h20 left then |
| 10:40.01 | Leeds | doesn't matter - I should be at work by now - I've not even showered because I knew they'd try to deliver it while I was in the shower |
| 10:41.24 | ar | where do you work? |
| 10:42.37 | Leeds | watford |
| 10:47.23 | Leeds | and I'm now holding to Manchester :-( |
| 10:50.19 | Leeds | fucking shitty crappy arse customer bloody service |
| 10:53.58 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 10:57.13 | Leeds | arse! |
| 11:02.34 | Leeds | hmm... |
| 11:02.45 | Leeds | apparently being an angry but (just) polite consumer can work :-) |
| 11:03.34 | Leeds | I wonder if it was the threat of calling head office which did it... but they're going to deliver it tomorrow morning at 9:30 |
| 11:03.58 | Leeds | gives them one more chance to make it right :-) |
| 11:31.54 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~rc112576@beryllium.eu.sun.com) |
| 11:34.30 | Leeds | hi |
| 11:36.57 | ar | hi |
| 11:36.57 | Clyphox | hopla |
| 11:39.58 | Clyphox | weee.. just got a call about a job... |
| 11:42.19 | Cope | Clulmeatspace ! |
| 11:45.46 | *** join/#gllug formi (~formi@82-35-34-114.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 12:08.27 | *** part/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 12:08.44 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 12:10.59 | mozrat | ? |
| 12:12.08 | Leeds | wave/particle duality? |
| 12:12.16 | mozrat | Ah ha |
| 12:12.34 | mozrat | I thought you had given up waiting? |
| 12:12.36 | Leeds | bad physics joke... |
| 12:12.37 | Leeds | ? |
| 12:12.40 | mozrat | for your HDD I mean |
| 12:12.48 | Leeds | oh, I'm at work now |
| 12:13.12 | mozrat | Blimey that was quick. Do you own some sort of jetpack or something? |
| 12:13.24 | highbury | morning |
| 12:13.45 | Leeds | I... forcefully, but (just about) politely argued enough with both the shop and the courier that they have agreed to deliver it tomorrow morning *before 9:30* |
| 12:13.56 | Leeds | I fully expect it to arrive at 7am, stomped on... but still :-) |
| 12:13.57 | Leeds | hey highbury |
| 12:14.07 | Leeds | mozrat: I've been at work since just after 11:30 |
| 12:14.25 | mozrat | How long is your commute? |
| 12:14.28 | Cope | Hi Mozrat |
| 12:14.32 | Leeds | 15-20 minutes |
| 12:14.53 | mozrat | Cope: Hi... how is the baby/job hunting/sendmail situation? |
| 12:15.03 | mozrat | Leeds: Lucky b***er |
| 12:15.15 | Leeds | mozrat: largely by choice/design |
| 12:15.41 | mozrat | s/closed/closer |
| 12:16.18 | Leeds | it was a combination of finding work close(ish) to home and home close(ish) to work... I do do about 12 miles each way - just that most of it is on the M1 going against the traffic so it doesn't take very long :-) |
| 12:16.40 | Cope | mozrat: Baby: Busy, antenatal classes most of today; Job: Got an email asking to arrange a time to meet, I replied with time, got no reply back yet :o( Sendmail: Working fine. |
| 12:17.52 | Cope | Just grabbing a cuppa before going to sign on ;o) |
| 12:20.05 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 12:20.36 | mozrat | Yikes... my irc connection is flaky today. 3rd time I've been disconnected |
| 12:20.58 | murble | well my ADSL is very flaky today as in the phone line. |
| 12:21.50 | Leeds | the flakiest, crumbliest Internet connection in the world? |
| 12:22.20 | mozrat | I work for an advertising group.... that could be a good ad campaign |
| 12:22.48 | Leeds | heh |
| 12:22.51 | mozrat | ADSL -- possibly the best connection in the world (Heiniken) |
| 12:23.10 | Leeds | Satellite Internet - reasurringly expensive |
| 12:23.25 | mozrat | ADLS -- 9 out of 10 can't tell the difference ($RANDOM_COLA commercial) |
| 12:23.29 | Leeds | Nothing sucks like AOL? |
| 13:15.37 | JD | hi |
| 13:18.35 | *** join/#gllug highbury (~steve@81-1-71-87.homechoice.co.uk) |
| 13:37.16 | Leeds | hey JD |
| 13:37.33 | JD | hi Leeds |
| 13:37.54 | murble | highbury: did you ever get your weird usb serial thing workung under linux? |
| 13:37.55 | JD | awww |
| 13:38.24 | JD | Leeds: when are you going to release the bug back into the wild |
| 13:38.45 | Leeds | it's never getting out - it's dead, I tell you! |
| 13:40.22 | Leeds | isn't that a chess move? :-) |
| 13:43.27 | JD | Leeds: that isn;t fixing, that is plain cold blooded murder |
| 13:44.49 | Leeds | quite right... it deserved it - it was screwing up my figures, dammit! |
| 14:28.04 | mozrat | Yippee... Visio on Linux after a lot of fscking around with wine |
| 14:28.24 | mozrat | http://194.203.40.100/mozrat/Screenshot.png |
| 14:29.27 | Leeds | and that's notes on wine too? |
| 14:29.55 | mozrat | Yep.. I cracked that a while ago, but Visio was a little stubborn |
| 14:30.10 | mozrat | Notes 6 doesn't work to my knowledge |
| 14:31.52 | mozrat | I like dia, but (it pains me to say) I don't think it's quite up to scratch yet. |
| 14:34.21 | Leeds | neither are really an issue here :-) |
| 14:45.39 | Leeds | hmm... just had a call from my mum... computer has gone bang... |
| 14:46.35 | mozrat | Literally? |
| 14:46.40 | Leeds | apparently |
| 14:46.45 | mozrat | Yikes!!! |
| 14:47.28 | Leeds | she got to the office (back room at my grandpa's house - next door to my parents' place) turned the PC on and it was dead... |
| 14:47.56 | mozrat | Likely power supply? |
| 14:47.57 | Leeds | so she replaced the fuse in the cable, and when she turned on the power, she heard a bang - from above her (the PC on the desk) not from the cable |
| 14:48.09 | Leeds | likely power supply now ;-) |
| 14:48.16 | Leeds | even if it wasn't before... |
| 14:48.19 | mozrat | Whoops. have you asked which fuse she used!! |
| 14:48.40 | Leeds | 3 amp - which is apparently what was in it... sounds a little low to me |
| 14:49.18 | Leeds | I've told her to go home and get the power cable from her PC and try it on the office PC... otherwise it probably needs a new PSU |
| 14:50.08 | mozrat | that was probably a 'learning experience' for her! |
| 14:50.25 | Leeds | yes :-) |
| 14:50.34 | mozrat | i had a cd-rom drive 'literally' explode once. Quite alarming |
| 14:50.48 | Leeds | I've had a monitor let out the magic smoke on me... |
| 14:51.32 | mozrat | the cd had a small crack in it -- the user told me after -- and the amount of rpm exploded it in the drive |
| 14:51.40 | Leeds | whoa |
| 14:51.56 | mozrat | lots of small shards of plastic!! |
| 14:52.03 | Leeds | indeed |
| 14:54.10 | zachary | Leeds: I had the same monitor - snap, crackle, pop -- POOF! |
| 15:03.56 | *** join/#gllug cup (~cup@host81-136-48-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 15:04.13 | cup | afternoon |
| 15:07.06 | mozrat | Hello cup |
| 15:07.44 | murble | anyone want a 386dx40 + motherboard + 8 mb of ram? |
| 15:08.19 | cup | question, I want to run a simple chat server from my home pc, the people who want to use are mostly sitting behind firewalls that block most ports. Is there anything wrong with setting the chat server port to http(s) which is bound to be allowed by the firewall? |
| 15:08.59 | cup | would that work? |
| 15:09.21 | murble | possibly, if their application knows how to do an HTTP CONNECT |
| 15:11.22 | highbury | murble: yes I did, its how I'm connecting now. FTDI Serial->USB |
| 15:11.58 | Leeds | cup: yeah, depends on if it's port 80 or HTTP which is allowed... |
| 15:12.00 | highbury | now part of 2.4 kernel |
| 15:14.01 | Clyphox | hI ALL |
| 15:14.09 | Clyphox | err.. excuse the CAPS |
| 15:14.36 | mozrat | Hi Clyphox |
| 15:14.36 | Leeds | hI cLYPHOX |
| 15:14.54 | mozrat | dONT bE cHEEKY lEEDS |
| 15:14.59 | mozrat | :-) |
| 15:15.12 | Clyphox | hOI |
| 15:15.21 | cup | Leeds: right so say I use https 443 I think as I have apache on 80 and just tell the java client to connect through 443 |
| 15:16.23 | Leeds | cup: which is fine - as long as the firewall is just open on the http(s) ports... if it's running a proxy (as, for example, is the case here) you need clients and a server which can actually communicate over HTTP |
| 15:17.09 | cup | Leeds: ah I see, i think, cheers |
| 15:23.14 | Wethrin | Leeds: I've got tickets |
| 15:23.43 | Leeds | Wethrin: ah, good stuff :-) |
| 15:23.55 | Wethrin | Yep :) |
| 15:24.07 | Wethrin | On opening evening, it's a charity night, hence them not selling tickets |
| 15:24.30 | Wethrin | And it's already quite full |
| 15:25.01 | Leeds | ah, fair enough |
| 15:30.55 | mozrat | wine must be my friend today, I've just got Notes 6 working! |
| 15:31.29 | mozrat | no, no wine please! |
| 15:32.25 | Wethrin | Red or white? |
| 15:32.48 | mozrat | I prefer white myself! |
| 15:32.53 | Wethrin | Ah. |
| 15:37.30 | gregj | :-) |
| 15:41.43 | Leeds | hey gregj |
| 15:43.29 | gregj | Y0 |
| 15:45.12 | highbury | gregj, is there a kopete irc channel? |
| 15:46.25 | gregj | highbury: list chanells i am on |
| 15:46.29 | gregj | channels |
| 15:46.48 | gregj | simply #kopete |
| 15:55.14 | formi | gregj: an irc channel for an im client, seem a bit counter-productive |
| 15:56.44 | murble | formi: why, how else would they comminicate when the im breaks? |
| 15:57.29 | formi | keep a copy of a stable release |
| 15:57.43 | murble | but irc is just better. |
| 15:57.50 | murble | formi: and if your server catches fire? |
| 15:58.00 | murble | what about new users needing help because they can't get it to work? |
| 15:58.04 | murble | does the im support irc? |
| 15:58.05 | murble | maybe? |
| 15:58.11 | formi | phone the firebrigade |
| 15:58.19 | murble | seems like a senisble precaugtion. |
| 15:59.07 | gregj | formi: he ? |
| 15:59.21 | gregj | formi: FYI kopete is also IRC client |
| 15:59.34 | formi | murble: if it is a developers channel, they ought to be focusing on the development side |
| 15:59.46 | gregj | we have mailing list for that |
| 16:00.16 | gregj | don't teach ppl from such great project as kde, how to communicate :-) |
| 16:00.31 | Wethrin | gregj: Don't they need to? :-) |
| 16:00.47 | gregj | Wethrin: nope, we all know exactly what to do :-) |
| 16:03.31 | Wethrin | Mmhm :) |
| 16:24.16 | gregj | link to gllug website on lonix.org.uk is incorrect |
| 16:24.23 | gregj | it points to gllug.org.uk |
| 16:24.38 | gregj | and it says we are meeting every 2/3 months :-) |
| 16:27.06 | *** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG) |
| 16:31.32 | murble | gregj: that is approxmiatly correct. |
| 16:34.27 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mario@wll099.wmlib.wmich.edu) |
| 16:34.35 | Marios_ | Hello |
| 16:35.37 | Leeds | yeah? what do *you* want? |
| 16:37.46 | gregj | hmm |
| 16:38.40 | gregj | yeah |
| 16:38.51 | gregj | we are talking about snowboarding on kde-commits atm |
| 16:38.53 | gregj | [; |
| 16:38.54 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mario@wll099.wmlib.wmich.edu) |
| 16:44.35 | *** kick/#gllug [Marios!~ecoli@64.246.28.105] by Wethrin (At request of Marios_) |
| 16:45.13 | Marios_ | :) |
| 16:45.16 | gregj | hehe |
| 17:29.54 | Marios_ | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3286721.stm |
| 17:31.21 | Leeds | mmm... penis... |
| 17:31.47 | Marios_ | lol |
| 17:32.04 | mozrat | retch |
| 17:32.17 | Leeds | ibot vomit |
| 17:32.18 | | Leeds: I give up, what is it? |
| 17:32.24 | Leeds | um... |
| 17:33.04 | mozrat | ibot lart scary german cannibal person |
| 17:33.09 | mozrat | Hmm topical |
| 17:35.08 | Leeds | tropical? |
| 17:35.34 | mozrat | good afternoon gentlemen (and ladies if present). |
| 17:35.38 | mozrat | See you all later |
| 17:35.44 | Leeds | seeya |
| 17:36.04 | *** part/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@mozrat-work.batesuk.com) |
| 18:41.57 | Marios_ | ping |
| 18:42.58 | Marios_ | pong :( |
| 18:43.13 | murble | push |
| 18:44.23 | Leeds | pang |
| 18:44.53 | Marios_ | pop |
| 18:46.25 | Marios_ | Leeds << Did you see the JDS ? |
| 18:46.33 | Leeds | see? |
| 18:47.29 | Marios_ | how it looks like ? |
| 18:47.59 | Leeds | I saw it at a show in London a couple of months ago, and it looked pretty good :-) I've not seen any newer builds... |
| 18:48.31 | Marios_ | ohh |
| 18:48.39 | Marios_ | I think it has been just released |
| 18:48.43 | Leeds | I should probably download a copy and look at it :-) |
| 18:48.48 | Leeds | yes, it was released this week |
| 18:49.02 | Marios_ | $100 a year per PC |
| 18:49.29 | Leeds | yup - although to be honest, I'm not sure what happens at the end of the first year... |
| 18:50.03 | Leeds | remember that it's not meant to be an end-user desktop - the plan isn't to sell single copies - so I think the point is that the money comes as part of a Sun support contract |
| 18:50.24 | Marios_ | hmmm |
| 18:50.39 | Marios_ | there are some info here |
| 18:50.39 | Marios_ | http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5186&page=2 |
| 18:51.38 | Leeds | doesn't seem to want to load for me |
| 18:52.55 | Marios_ | let's what will happen |
| 18:56.43 | Leeds | ah, there it is |
| 19:30.09 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:32.52 | Leeds | oooh... gentoo got rooted |
| 19:41.34 | murble | emerg ownme |
| 19:42.36 | Leeds | apt-get r00tk1t |
| 19:42.59 | murble | tar xzf root-kit.tgz |
| 19:43.31 | Leeds | ./configure ; make ; sudo make install' |
| 19:44.00 | murble | cool, you get to lose whatever you do :) |
| 19:48.48 | murble | why? |
| 19:49.01 | murble | I mean why anti? |
| 19:49.13 | murble | do poeple not like the way it was marketed to kids or somthing? |
| 19:49.45 | Leeds | because it's sugar-loaded, additive-loaded and colouring-loaded, but was marketed as a healthy 'fruit juice' type drink |
| 19:50.32 | Leeds | and plus, it came from no-where and was very successful, and therefore a valid target |
| 19:50.55 | murble | so people are upset with its success? |
| 19:51.17 | Leeds | no - they're upset that it was very dodgily marketed |
| 19:51.18 | murble | how can we get people back on to coke and pepsi cola i ask |
| 19:51.38 | Leeds | I drink lots of water... |
| 19:51.59 | murble | i drink lots of tea, which is probably very bad for me. |
| 19:52.06 | Leeds | anyway - it turns you orange |
| 19:52.07 | murble | most nice things are. |
| 19:52.14 | murble | like fake tan? |
| 19:52.36 | Leeds | yes |
| 19:52.37 | Marios_ | tea is very healthy |
| 19:52.51 | Marios_ | especially herbs tea |
| 19:53.05 | murble | Marios_: I'm not sure i tend to use it as a stimulant |
| 19:53.19 | Marios_ | still is better than coffee |
| 19:56.29 | *** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-204-155.access.uk.tiscali.com) |
| 20:01.32 | Leeds | "118866 - sort of sticks in your mind" aka "118866 - please please please remember our seemingly random number and call us when you want to vastly overspend on getting the wrong number" |
| 20:04.21 | Clyphox | hehe |
| 20:07.20 | stephanb | hi everybody ! |
| 20:07.28 | Jenson | hi stephanb |
| 20:07.32 | stephanb | Jenson: hi Jenson |
| 20:08.08 | stephanb | anybody here on Debian ? |
| 20:09.13 | Leeds | ha! |
| 20:09.39 | stephanb | Leeds: what does that mean ? |
| 20:10.08 | stephanb | Leeds: don't worry, i'm not using Debian, only playing with Morphix. |
| 20:21.40 | Wethrin | Heh |
| 20:21.43 | Wethrin | Coffee is good. |
| 20:22.26 | stephanb | Wethrin: ? discovering there are other pleasures in life than Perl ? |
| 20:23.01 | Wethrin | What? I never liked Perl particularly |
| 20:23.17 | Wethrin | Always seemed quite cumbersome, when awk or sed would have done the job |
| 20:23.25 | Wethrin | (or at least a bit more of a shell script) |
| 20:25.35 | stephanb | Wethrin: i wouldn't read the timecode in mpeg-2 files with sed and awk... |
| 20:27.12 | Wethrin | And you would in Perl? |
| 20:27.45 | stephanb | well i don't know C... |
| 20:28.03 | Wethrin | Lots of other languages. |
| 20:28.06 | Wethrin | Python. Java. |
| 20:28.25 | Wethrin | Forth ;-) |
| 20:28.43 | Wethrin | Ah. cut is good there |
| 20:32.27 | *** part/#gllug stephanb (~frog@dsl-80-46-204-155.access.uk.tiscali.com) |
| 21:01.36 | *** join/#gllug Xiaoqi (~nikki@negativezero.plus.com) |
| 21:02.00 | Xiaoqi | hihi |
| 21:02.29 | Cope | Hi Xiaoqi |
| 21:02.46 | Xiaoqi | hi Cope hows u? |
| 21:03.05 | Cope | Ok - not bad, you? |
| 21:03.17 | Xiaoqi | I'm ok thanks |
| 21:03.56 | Xiaoqi | brb |
| 21:15.35 | *** join/#gllug cupis (~paul@195.137.116.73) |
| 21:19.26 | Clyphox | hey Cope.. what happened with that interview you got set up? |
| 21:20.46 | Cope | Clyphox: *shrugs* Client hasn't confirmed it; might chase them tomorrow. |
| 21:21.17 | Clyphox | aye.. |
| 21:21.35 | Clyphox | I had one setup for this week.. client still mucking around.. not excited anymore |
| 21:21.55 | Cope | I know the feeling. |
| 21:30.19 | Clyphox | :-( |
| 21:44.22 | *** join/#gllug cozmonort (Costa@82-35-124-183.cable.ubr01.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 21:44.56 | cozmonort | hiya |
| 21:52.29 | Cope | Anyone used haskell? |
| 21:52.35 | cozmonort | dude this place is dead |
| 21:52.51 | Clyphox | haskell? neve rheard of it |
| 21:53.13 | Leeds | I've heard of it... |
| 21:53.16 | stephen | yep, I've got an exam on it tomorrow |
| 21:53.40 | murble | silly dysfunctional programing language |
| 21:53.41 | Leeds | I'm watching Two Towers with cast commentary - Theoden has a strong Manchester accent :-) |
| 21:54.31 | stephen | murble: indeed |
| 21:56.32 | Leeds | I tend to avoid 'cool' alternative languages - fact is, I'm a developer, not a computer scientist |
| 21:56.54 | Cope | I was talking to someone who had learned it at uni. |
| 21:57.04 | Cope | A 'declarative' language, apparently. |
| 21:57.21 | Leeds | the point is that it has almost no use or visibility *outside* Unis |
| 21:57.30 | Cope | Indeed |
| 21:58.08 | stephen | it's damn slow too |
| 21:58.41 | stephen | was doing some image manipulation with it, and it made a 386 look fast |
| 22:04.12 | Wethrin | Blah |
| 22:04.21 | Cope | Hi Wethrin |
| 22:04.25 | Wethrin | Hi |
| 22:04.41 | Wethrin | Mm. Functional programming. |
| 22:04.55 | Wethrin | Leeds: Haskell has managed to leak outside academic environments |
| 22:05.17 | Wethrin | It is quite useful for certain tasks. |
| 22:05.56 | Clyphox | meh |
| 22:06.03 | Wethrin | And hi to you too |
| 22:06.36 | Cope | Ok, what would you guys put in a syllabus for people for a course designed to teach people to become developers and give them a solid skill set? |
| 22:07.03 | stephen | er, not Haskell :p |
| 22:07.07 | Leeds | bah... was hoping that traditionally long international credit card transaction latency would mean Paris hotel going on *next* month's bill... |
| 22:07.08 | Clyphox | why ASP and VB of course |
| 22:07.52 | Wethrin | Cope: Are you asking this question seriously? |
| 22:08.04 | Cope | Wethrin: Yes, actually. |
| 22:08.33 | *** join/#gllug dankolb (~dankolb@spookhive.demon.co.uk) |
| 22:08.37 | Wethrin | Okay. |
| 22:08.51 | dankolb | Right. Because I can't stand the lag between my computer and the remote server. |
| 22:09.36 | Cope | Hi dankolb. |
| 22:10.16 | dankolb | For a serious answer, I'd probably teach some OO programming (probably Java, but might do something on Smalltalk, too, just so people don't get taught *Java* programming, but more general OO concepts) |
| 22:10.29 | Leeds | Cope: Java... C++... Perl or Python... and a bit of C and/or asm for old time's sake |
| 22:10.29 | Leeds | all depends, of course, on how you define "developer" and "solid skill set" |
| 22:10.32 | Jenson | evening |
| 22:10.50 | dankolb | I would try and put some other time of language in, too. |
| 22:11.18 | Leeds | type? |
| 22:11.19 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~simonmorr@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 22:11.31 | dankolb | Asm might be good if it's a really low-level course (but it's unlikely that asm and Java would appear in the same lecture course) |
| 22:11.50 | dankolb | Some functional programming would be good, just to have a completely different look at programming languages |
| 22:12.01 | Leeds | did my suggestions make it to the channel? my line dropped for a short while... |
| 22:12.07 | dankolb | Leeds: Yes |
| 22:12.09 | Cope | Leeds: yeah. |
| 22:12.16 | dankolb | (hence my reply about asm) |
| 22:12.36 | Leeds | ah... hence my C and/or asm - at least something lower-level |
| 22:13.23 | Cope | Would you start with C or with, say, Python? which would be best for teaching good habits? |
| 22:13.26 | Leeds | knowing what pointers are and how they work is useful - even if it's so you know why you don't use them in higher-level languages |
| 22:13.27 | dankolb | Yes, well, it could be argued that C/asm/Java, etc. are all imperative programming languages, and hence need a similar mindset to program in |
| 22:13.40 | dankolb | Fortran < 90 :-) Teaches you to indent code properly... |
| 22:13.48 | dankolb | Sorry, *forces* you to indent code properly |
| 22:13.55 | Leeds | if you're coding C and Java in the same style you've missed the point of one of the languages... |
| 22:14.02 | Leeds | if it's indenting you want - Python! :-) |
| 22:14.13 | dankolb | I'm not talking from the point of OO v. non-OO |
| 22:14.38 | dankolb | More from the point of, once you have a problem defined, you have to explicitly tell it how to get the solution |
| 22:14.52 | dankolb | (i.e. set up arrays, loop over them, do comparisons, and whatnot) |
| 22:15.13 | dankolb | Rather than just saying "here's the problem; give me a solution" |
| 22:18.07 | Cope | How would you prepare the ground? Would you want to spend time in 1 language to get the concepts across, and maybe spend time on discrete maths and algorithms? |
| 22:18.50 | Leeds | http://www.liquidgeneration.com/poptoons/britneys_breasts.asp |
| 22:18.53 | dankolb | Algorithms are more abstract |
| 22:19.11 | Leeds | I'm sorry - was there a conversation about computer science teaching going on? :-) |
| 22:19.22 | Wethrin | Leeds: No |
| 22:19.28 | Cope | dankolb: Would you look at them separately, or later, or maybe only as and when their need arose? |
| 22:19.52 | Leeds | thing is - it really does take at least a year of teaching, I'd say, to cover basic computer science |
| 22:19.54 | dankolb | I wouldn't tend to teach them in a course that is designed to produce developers |
| 22:20.15 | dankolb | Leeds: Yes - there are quite a few things I'd have liked them to go into more depth on |
| 22:20.26 | Leeds | if you just want them to become developers, pick a type of developer (web, application, game, OS, etc.) and focus (Perl, ?, C++/Java, C) |
| 22:20.53 | Cope | That was the point; CS maybe doesn't teach people what they need to become usefully employed people/developers. |
| 22:20.56 | dankolb | 10 lectures on Operating Systems is okay for a very basic understanding of some of the stuff that goes on in an OS |
| 22:21.03 | Leeds | sorry, that should be (Perl, C++/Java, ?, C) |
| 22:21.12 | dankolb | Cope: That's not the purpose of a University course. |
| 22:21.15 | dankolb | Dammit! |
| 22:21.18 | Leeds | Cope: CS isn't about learning to be a developer |
| 22:21.26 | Cope | Exactly. |
| 22:21.30 | dankolb | Uni is not about churning out people to slave in the workforce |
| 22:21.47 | Leeds | well... I dunno about that... |
| 22:22.02 | Leeds | maybe it *shouldn't* be about that :-) |
| 22:22.03 | dankolb | It is designed to teach people how to think, how to approach problems, how to learn on their own, while continuing teaching a particular subject |
| 22:22.10 | dankolb | Leeds: The best Unis aren't about that :) |
| 22:22.17 | dankolb | I can't speak for Thames Valley, or somesuch |
| 22:22.28 | Cope | So if gllug was to produce a syllabus to help people become or learn to become developers, what would be in it; that's what interests me. |
| 22:22.35 | Leeds | also depends on the course... a dentristry course, for example, is relatively focussed |
| 22:22.42 | Leeds | Cope: developer is too broad a word |
| 22:22.51 | Cope | Leeds: fair point. |
| 22:22.52 | dankolb | Obviously, some job-skills will be taught in a Uni course, but that's not the focus of the course |
| 22:23.22 | dankolb | Leeds: Well, true. But that's what the practical part of the course is for :) |
| 22:23.31 | Cope | I got thinking about this because my friend went to Bristol, and said the course was good; so I had a look myself. |
| 22:23.48 | dankolb | A dentistry course does (should?) not teach *only* how to use the tools of the profession |
| 22:23.55 | Cope | Then I got thinking where I would go to uni today if I had my time again. |
| 22:23.58 | dankolb | But should teach about oral issues in general |
| 22:24.02 | Leeds | the course I did was fairly broad and fairly practical... but the point is that, for example, I can look at a piece of code and say "that's a doubly-linked list, and I know how they work" |
| 22:24.15 | dankolb | That's good. |
| 22:24.35 | dankolb | And also, knowing how a linked list works, you should be able to implement one without too much difficulty |
| 22:24.42 | Leeds | whereas some of my collegues - who may be excellent developers - don't have that basic toolkit of knowledge to fall back on |
| 22:24.46 | Leeds | dankolb: exactly |
| 22:24.54 | dankolb | And that's the purpose of a Uni course, IMO |
| 22:24.56 | Cope | I've always tried to learn from first principles. |
| 22:25.15 | Cope | So that I can work out a solution myself, from what I do know. |
| 22:25.15 | dankolb | From there, derive the basic operation of an adder. |
| 22:25.30 | Cope | But then that's how I was taught. |
| 22:25.32 | Leeds | which, in many ways, means the right language to teach is one that's easy to learn - not one that's going to be useful commercially |
| 22:25.45 | dankolb | (hint: go through crystalline structures) |
| 22:25.46 | Leeds | the teaching language at Liverpool was Ada... heard of it? |
| 22:26.01 | dankolb | Yes. |
| 22:26.10 | Leeds | know any commercial use? |
| 22:26.13 | dankolb | Does the US military have any fingers in Liverpool? |
| 22:26.16 | dankolb | Yes. US Mil. |
| 22:26.23 | Leeds | apart from US Mil :-) |
| 22:26.47 | dankolb | Dunno then |
| 22:26.52 | Cope | Well, Bristol teaches C as the first language; as its the foundation of the internet, and is fairly low level. |
| 22:27.02 | dankolb | C is *not* the foundation of the internet |
| 22:27.15 | dankolb | The Internet is to do with protocols, and *not* languages |
| 22:27.22 | Leeds | anyway... the fact that I knew Ada got me a job offer from Marconi doing avionics (dodged a bullet there, even considering where I ended up) - but I've not written a line of Ada since leaving Uni |
| 22:27.29 | Leeds | C is the foundation of *UNIX* |
| 22:27.48 | dankolb | Actually, Unix is the foundation of C :) |
| 22:27.53 | dankolb | But that's just pedantism |
| 22:27.53 | Cope | Okay, and those protocols are not infrequently implemented in UNIX. |
| 22:28.01 | Leeds | one of my collegues quoted Richie today in a discussion of style :-) |
| 22:28.03 | dankolb | Cope: They're also implemented in Windows. So? |
| 22:28.16 | Leeds | dankolb: and on Commodore 64s |
| 22:28.17 | dankolb | They're also implemented in VMS. And AmigaOS |
| 22:28.35 | dankolb | The protocols can be implemented on any OS. |
| 22:28.39 | Cope | dankolb: Come on... the basic infrastructure of the internet, historically, grew up around UNIX. |
| 22:28.46 | Leeds | the reference implementation was often on UNIX, but that doesn't really matter |
| 22:28.57 | dankolb | Cope: Also VMS. |
| 22:29.01 | Cope | Ok |
| 22:29.05 | dankolb | And RT/11, I think |
| 22:29.24 | Cope | And what underpins VMS? |
| 22:29.33 | dankolb | Lots of languages |
| 22:29.35 | dankolb | :) |
| 22:29.41 | Leeds | there is a close bond between C and UNIX, and a close bond between UNIX and the Internet - but not that much of a bond between C and the Internet |
| 22:30.25 | dankolb | VAXBasic, Fortran |
| 22:30.50 | Leeds | I think C is a bad language to start teaching from scratch |
| 22:31.07 | dankolb | There are some VMS bits written in C |
| 22:31.11 | Leeds | it's a good language to know a little about, and a good language to *understand*, but a bad place to start |
| 22:32.30 | Cope | Leeds: That was what I was wondering. |
| 22:32.44 | Cope | I have heard that said a lot; but I don't understand why. |
| 22:32.53 | Leeds | do you know C? |
| 22:32.55 | dankolb | Have you looked at much C code? |
| 22:33.13 | Cope | yeah, a bit; imagine 1st year undergrad. |
| 22:33.22 | Leeds | so not much then :-) |
| 22:34.00 | Cope | If I had a small program that didn't need a GUI I would write it in C. |
| 22:34.01 | dankolb | C++ is an evil nasty hackish kludge |
| 22:34.11 | Leeds | C makes you take a lot of responsibility. it makes you think like the computer. it generally doesn't meet you half-way |
| 22:34.17 | Leeds | Cope: I'd do it in Python |
| 22:34.25 | Cope | Leeds: I know. |
| 22:34.45 | Leeds | pointer arithmetic is really scary and messy - and is needed constantly in C |
| 22:34.46 | Wethrin | Cope: http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/historical.html |
| 22:34.58 | Cope | Leeds: I like the way that C makes me think like a computer. |
| 22:35.14 | Leeds | hmm... savannah.gnu.org has been taken down too! |
| 22:35.18 | dankolb | Pointer arithmetic really shouldn't be necessary in a higher-level programming language |
| 22:35.28 | Leeds | Cope: but not if it's your first exposure to programming |
| 22:35.29 | dankolb | Memory locations should be abstracted away by the compiler |
| 22:35.39 | dankolb | Cope: Program in assembler, then :) |
| 22:36.31 | Cope | dankolb: I did program in 6502 assembler. |
| 22:36.53 | dankolb | That should make you think more like a computer than C would :) |
| 22:36.54 | Leeds | Cope: didn't we all :-) |
| 22:37.02 | Cope | Leeds: Indeed |
| 22:37.03 | dankolb | Leeds: I didn't. I used 8086 |
| 22:37.20 | Leeds | dankolb: ooh-la-la hark at him and his 'business computer' |
| 22:37.30 | Cope | lol |
| 22:37.56 | dankolb | Hey, I did some Z80 too. |
| 22:38.06 | dankolb | Although I was too young to understand properly what I was doing |
| 22:38.09 | Cope | I learned BASIC, but not the gosub crap, I learned it as a structured languge where you wrote functions and procedures. |
| 22:38.23 | Jenson | oooh a little dankolb hehehe |
| 22:38.26 | dankolb | GOSUB is like a procedure, though :) |
| 22:38.30 | Cope | Then 6502 assembler. |
| 22:38.33 | Leeds | Cope: anyway - the point is that even very simple stuff like "this is a variable. it stores data" gets very complicated in C very quickly - for example, as soon as you want to put more than one letter in that variable |
| 22:38.42 | Jenson | i have a Dummies Guide to C behind me |
| 22:38.42 | Cope | dankolb - apart from not being able to pass arguments and variables. |
| 22:38.43 | dankolb | Well....does typing in long BBC Micro listings count as 6502 assembler? |
| 22:39.01 | dankolb | :) |
| 22:39.36 | Cope | Leeds: Yeah, I agree. |
| 22:39.46 | Leeds | I wanted to do some of my GCSE computer studies project in 6502 asm, but the teacher said I couldn't because she couldn't mark it :-) |
| 22:39.56 | dankolb | I fail to see why a higher-level programmer should care that a primitive needs to be accessed by value, whereas an array might sometimes need to be accessed via pointer |
| 22:40.23 | dankolb | But only sometimes you need to give a function *array; other times, just array will do nicely |
| 22:40.30 | dankolb | And yet other functions want **array |
| 22:40.30 | Leeds | dankolb: if all you want to be is a dumb coder - sure, that's okay. if you want to be a hacker of any sort - it's helpful to keep it in mind |
| 22:40.44 | Cope | So, we wouldn't use C as a first language, it would scare people, and they would know things they don't need to know? |
| 22:41.02 | Leeds | and of course sometimes you have a struct foo and sometimes a struct * foo, and then you may need a &foo every now and again |
| 22:41.04 | dankolb | Leeds: Not dumb coder. If I'm doing application-level programming, I don't care *how* something gets accessed, merely that I get the right value |
| 22:41.28 | dankolb | And if I'm doing assembly-language programming, then, fair enough, I need to know about memory locations. |
| 22:41.50 | Leeds | dankolb: true, I suppose... and what applies to asm pretty much applies to C in most cases :-) |
| 22:41.55 | dankolb | Leeds: This is why I don't think C is a particularly wonderful language |
| 22:41.59 | Leeds | Cope: are you thinking purely vocational? |
| 22:42.07 | dankolb | Yes, but C is used a lot for application-level programs |
| 22:42.27 | Leeds | I don't think it is so much, nowadays |
| 22:42.32 | dankolb | Well, C++. |
| 22:42.34 | Cope | Leeds: Well, to an extent, although most vocational programmers who learn for themselves are probably imbued with a hacker ethic. |
| 22:42.56 | Leeds | dankolb: and you can't write C++ without doing pointer maths? |
| 22:43.09 | dankolb | I don't know. I don't intend to find out :-P |
| 22:43.32 | Leeds | Cope: the point isn't that C would teach them things they didn't need to know... it's that the things they learn would get in the way of things they *did* need to learn |
| 22:43.46 | Cope | Leeds: well put. |
| 22:43.56 | dankolb | It's enough in Java to know that a primitive is passed by value, whereas an object is passed by reference. But I don't need to bother about whether a method needs *Object, &Object or **Object |
| 22:44.35 | Leeds | see, I didn't know that |
| 22:44.50 | Cope | Leeds: So would you teach them C++ instead, and not bother with much C? (I don't know C++ so not whether its just C with OO bolted on) |
| 22:44.51 | dankolb | Fair enough. |
| 22:45.19 | dankolb | You could argue that it's all pass-by-value. All you do when you pass an object is give a copy of the memory location of the object. |
| 22:45.25 | Leeds | I am not in a typical situation, though... I have all the source for the stuff I work with, and I'm free to roam up and down the stack - and I'm working at the top of the kernel |
| 22:45.27 | dankolb | (I think, like using *object in C) |
| 22:45.50 | dankolb | C++ is C with *badly* bolted on OO |
| 22:45.57 | Leeds | Cope: personally I would start with some simple Python... seriously |
| 22:46.11 | dankolb | It tries to redefine the whole language, but then still allows you to do C-things. |
| 22:46.33 | Cope | I've messed about with python, and get a good feeling from it. |
| 22:46.56 | Leeds | in my opinion, and my experience, it's easy to learn, easy to read, easy to do simple stuff, very well documented... |
| 22:47.35 | Leeds | the "there's one way to do it, and it's the right way" makes more sense for teaching than "there's more than one way to do it" :-P |
| 22:47.36 | dankolb | Also, with C, you'll have to fairly quickly teach about malloc, and bounds checking, etc. Other programming languages don't force you with the details like that. |
| 22:47.47 | Leeds | dankolb: yes, exactly my point :-) |
| 22:47.49 | dankolb | Leeds: Not advocating teaching Perl, then? :-P |
| 22:48.09 | Cope | Perl scares me. |
| 22:48.13 | dankolb | In Java, if you define an array of length 10, and try and read the 11th element, it shouts at you very loudly |
| 22:48.32 | dankolb | In C, it lets you do it. It also lets you write beyond the length of an array. |
| 22:48.36 | Leeds | dankolb: so will Python - it'll raise a ValueException, I think |
| 22:48.42 | dankolb | Instant Overflow :) |
| 22:48.56 | Cope | dankolb: ie C lets you break things? |
| 22:49.03 | dankolb | Leeds: That's sensible. Most programming languages will complain or bomb out at a read-past-end-of-array |
| 22:49.14 | dankolb | Cope: Yes. Easily. Look at all the buffer-overflow exploits around. |
| 22:49.35 | Leeds | I found a sweet little bug the other day - effectively: "if (pointer == NULL) free(pointer);" - and this is in the kernel, so you're in a panic situation |
| 22:50.19 | Jenson | time for bed |
| 22:50.20 | Jenson | night |
| 22:50.23 | Cope | nn Jenson |
| 22:50.34 | Leeds | note: a) it was my code, b) it had been code reviewed and c) this was purely internal - not been delivered to customers |
| 22:50.34 | Leeds | night Jenson |
| 22:50.39 | dankolb | If C implemented bounds checking, those problems wouldn't really happen |
| 22:50.56 | dankolb | Bad Leeds :-P |
| 22:50.56 | Jenson | nn Cope |
| 22:50.58 | Jenson | nn Leeds |
| 22:51.59 | dankolb | nn Jenson |
| 22:52.19 | Leeds | and of course people shoehorn all sorts of things into C... things like using macros to pick values from arrays of pointers to functions as a way of implementing interfaces |
| 22:53.21 | JD | wibble |
| 22:53.25 | Cope | Hi JD |
| 22:55.43 | Cope | Wethrin: That link is contenteder for coolest link of the year. |
| 22:56.07 | Leeds | Cope: to summarise - I would suggest starting with Python, and moving on to C++ and/or Java |
| 22:56.24 | Cope | dankolb: Your summary? |
| 22:56.48 | dankolb | My summary. Well, I think Java is a good teaching language |
| 22:57.01 | dankolb | I'd avoid C++ completely. Maybe look at C if you have to / have time |
| 22:58.01 | dankolb | And look at some completely different language, just to get a different mindset about programmin |
| 22:58.03 | dankolb | *programming |
| 22:58.15 | Cope | dankolb: eg smalltalk? |
| 22:58.38 | dankolb | No. Smalltalk is very nicely OO, but is still imperative. |
| 22:58.53 | Cope | dankolb: Lisp? |
| 22:59.04 | dankolb | Something like Haskell or Miranda (functional languages). Or even Prolog (also functional, but using Predicate calculus) |
| 22:59.21 | dankolb | Yes...Lisp wouldn't be bad. It's half-way between pure functional and imperative |
| 22:59.32 | dankolb | Forth might be worth looking into, too |
| 22:59.42 | Leeds | unless, of course, you care in the slightest about teaching useful commercial skills - in which case ignore all of the above |
| 22:59.56 | dankolb | Leeds: Java is useful commercial skill |
| 23:00.12 | Cope | More useful than Python, probably. |
| 23:00.24 | Leeds | sorry - all of the above from where you started naming languages which are 99% or more purely research languages |
| 23:00.50 | dankolb | Well, for commercial languages, you get Java and C++, sometimes C for lower-level. |
| 23:00.59 | Leeds | I'm not really a fan of Java... but it seems a decent language... the rest is pointless |
| 23:01.08 | Leeds | dankolb: and Perl/Python for web work |
| 23:01.16 | Cope | PHP? |
| 23:01.17 | dankolb | Of course, if you're doing microcode, you're going to be programming in assembler |
| 23:01.24 | dankolb | (and yes, that is commercial) |
| 23:01.26 | dankolb | Leeds: JSP :) |
| 23:01.41 | dankolb | Forth is used commercially too - OpenFirmware. |
| 23:02.13 | Leeds | dankolb: and honestly - how many people actually code for OpenFirmware |
| 23:02.29 | dankolb | Mathematica is also used commercially, but not everywhere |
| 23:02.38 | dankolb | Leeds: Probably not that many. |
| 23:02.41 | Leeds | I assumed not microcode... more general-purpose than that |
| 23:02.57 | dankolb | Well, OS for embedded device maybe, too |
| 23:03.06 | dankolb | Or simple application |
| 23:03.59 | Leeds | in terms of percentage of coders - and since we're all completely ignoring VB :-) |
| 23:04.20 | Leeds | C++/Java rule the roost... lots of Perl, some Python, some C |
| 23:04.36 | dankolb | It depends which direction you want to head, really. |
| 23:04.40 | Leeds | maybe PHP... |
| 23:04.52 | Leeds | I don't think that anything else really matters in a general-purpose sense |
| 23:04.53 | dankolb | If you just want to stick with high-level programming, look at Java and/or C++ |
| 23:05.19 | Leeds | dankolb: remember - this isn't meant to be a special-purpose thing - maybe year 2... |
| 23:05.39 | dankolb | True. I think we've lost track of the original question :) |
| 23:06.40 | Leeds | <Cope> Ok, what would you guys put in a syllabus for people for a course designed to teach people to become developers and give them a solid skill set? |
| 23:07.04 | dankolb | If you want to teach programming from the ground up, Java. |
| 23:07.15 | dankolb | It's good as a teaching language, and commercially useful |
| 23:07.42 | Leeds | I say start with Python to introduce simple computing concepts... (variable, loop, condition, function/procedure and so on) |
| 23:07.49 | Leeds | then move on to C++/Java |
| 23:09.30 | Leeds | I think starting with a scripting language makes sense... you don't have to go through things like program structure (main() and so on) to start with |
| 23:10.50 | Leeds | or compilation (and make or ant or something) too |
| 23:12.55 | dankolb | I think it's okay to start off saying "you need to do this at the start of the program; I'll explain why later on in the course" |
| 23:13.48 | dankolb | It's how they taught us :) |
| 23:14.21 | Leeds | it's not *wrong*, but it's not the best way |
| 23:15.53 | Wethrin | Otherwise you'd have to start off with teaching about classes and methods |
| 23:16.51 | Leeds | don't do that... |
| 23:17.19 | Leeds | generally, I think "trust me on this - I'll explain why later" means the course is badly designed |
| 23:17.48 | dankolb | No, it means you don't want to get bogged down in the details too much just yet. |
| 23:18.37 | dankolb | Like, say, at school when they taught about prisms splitting white light into different colours. They didn't say anything about refractive indices being functions of wavelength |
| 23:19.01 | dankolb | And when doing optics at school, they didn't teach Fourier Transforms - that was left until Uni |
| 23:19.02 | Leeds | a) I think they did for me... and b) that's different |
| 23:19.15 | Leeds | you're not saying "do this by rote and it'll make sense later" |
| 23:19.39 | dankolb | "This is the end result; you don't need to know how it happens" |
| 23:19.55 | Leeds | different... |
| 23:20.10 | Leeds | bah... who's got a teaching qualitification and experience here, anyway? :-) |
| 23:20.12 | dankolb | Slightly. |
| 23:20.19 | dankolb | Err....not you :) |
| 23:20.20 | dankolb | ? |
| 23:20.23 | Leeds | yes, me |
| 23:20.26 | dankolb | You do? |
| 23:20.32 | Leeds | yup |
| 23:20.38 | dankolb | What teaching qualification? |
| 23:20.43 | Leeds | not much of either, to be honest, but technically I have both |
| 23:21.43 | dankolb | Thing is, you can't write Java programs without using 'public class Foo', and 'public static void main()'. And teaching about classes and methods is a bad thing to start with, for people with no programming experience |
| 23:22.29 | Leeds | exactly why you don't start with JAva :-) |
| 23:23.39 | dankolb | :) |
| 23:23.41 | Clyphox | start with a scripting lingo methingks |
| 23:23.54 | Clyphox | can teach basics like variables/functions/loops |
| 23:23.55 | dankolb | It'd probably have confused people even more if we switched from scripting language to Java |
| 23:24.18 | Clyphox | true |
| 23:25.20 | dankolb | Right, well, fascinating though this discussion might be to continue, I've got to go to bed. |
| 23:25.29 | dankolb | It should continue at Lonix tomorrow :) |
| 23:30.05 | Wethrin | g'night all |
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