| 00:02.54 | anth | goodnight |
| 00:05.38 | Marios_ | hello |
| 00:05.47 | Marios_ | how was the party ? |
| 00:06.13 | Leeds | the meet... was fun |
| 00:06.46 | Marios_ | I heard it became a party afterwards with Indian food ;) |
| 00:07.22 | Leeds | I think some went for Chinese instead :-) |
| 00:07.51 | Leeds | but Indian always makes an evening better |
| 00:08.06 | Leeds | ah! I seem to have given the blood sacrifice |
| 00:08.35 | Marios_ | hehehhe |
| 00:08.47 | Marios_ | so what did that iraqi guy say ? |
| 00:09.11 | Leeds | I bought a new hard drive... and I've put it in my machine and I'm installing new Slackware on it now - and I cut my finger, which means it's all going to work |
| 00:09.41 | Marios_ | hhahaahaha |
| 00:09.54 | eye69 | Leeds: Do you normally take your personal injuries as omens? |
| 00:10.01 | Leeds | he said Iraq has a good technical and academic history, and has a lot of clever, well-educated people, and they just need a chance to get things going |
| 00:10.09 | Leeds | eye69: I do when I'm doing hardware things, yes |
| 00:10.37 | Marios_ | like in ancient times people used to built people inside a new constructed bridge |
| 00:10.46 | Leeds | Marios_: the cost of windows is just too high, and Linux gives them a chance to get up to speed very quickly... they need better Arabised software, but that is coming |
| 00:11.20 | Marios_ | I hope they can make it |
| 00:12.20 | Leeds | and he said - and this was very interesting, and I hope it's an area where Iraq can lead - they are trying to make an English and Arabic version of the European Computer Driving License (a European training program on basic computer use) which is free and focussed on free stuff, rather than the real one which costs, and focusses on MS stuff |
| 00:13.24 | Marios_ | oh this is really good idea |
| 00:15.17 | Marios_ | some countries really live on Microsoft ... you can't see anywhere open source except few isolated geeks |
| 00:15.18 | eye69 | Heh, I've got the ECDL |
| 00:15.53 | Leeds | the idea would be to teach the same skills, but without sending people to use MS stuff |
| 00:15.57 | Leeds | eye69: is it any good? |
| 00:16.23 | Marios_ | is this ECDL popular in Europe ? |
| 00:16.42 | Marios_ | I saw their site once... only MS products there |
| 00:17.12 | Leeds | Marios_: well... eye69 has it :-) I know my sister was studying for it, but I don't know if she finished |
| 00:17.59 | eye69 | Leeds: Well, for officeworkers that have no computer skills it might be a good thing, but that's as far as it goes. Let's just say that I completed it in about 5% of the time that was allocated. |
| 00:18.31 | eye69 | I took it in 2001, and they were still running Win95 and Office95...felt quite useless. |
| 00:19.00 | eye69 | Oh, no. Office 97. |
| 00:19.17 | Marios_ | http://www.ecdl.co.uk/ecdl.php?style=scn |
| 00:19.30 | eye69 | "Basic IT, Windows 95, Word 97, Excel 97 Calc, Access 97, Powerpoint 97, Outlook 97 Mail" |
| 00:19.38 | Marios_ | and there is also ECDL advanced |
| 00:19.39 | Leeds | but if people who didn't know computers did a similar course about openoffice, would it be a good thing? |
| 00:20.04 | Marios_ | yeah |
| 00:20.10 | Marios_ | cause they will start using that |
| 00:20.12 | eye69 | There were questions such as what is an email address, and the options were a URL, an IP address and an email address. |
| 00:21.52 | eye69 | I saw it more like something that office type employers can use to check that an employee has basic computer skills, but the Job Centre tried to convince me that it would help me find work since I "worked with computers". |
| 00:23.46 | *** join/#gllug AngelChild (~angelic@host217-44-248-187.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:28.05 | rhowe | My mum passed her ECDL |
| 00:28.07 | rhowe | 92% |
| 00:28.33 | eye69 | How knowledgeable is she? |
| 00:28.46 | rhowe | not at all w.r.t. computers |
| 00:29.17 | rhowe | Though she can type stuff out in Word, use Groupwise to send email and use the database interface at work |
| 00:29.32 | rhowe | The ECDL is misnamed |
| 00:30.33 | rhowe | It's a basic course in using the Windows GUI, and basic courses in MS Office apps, Internet Explorer, and Outlook (Express?) |
| 00:31.02 | rhowe | So it's really "getting started with Windows". Covers the basics, but not as well as an introductory book |
| 00:31.18 | rhowe | The "Dummies" guides are probably better |
| 00:31.59 | rhowe | As for the usefulness of an open source one? Nil, if the software used to teach the course isn't identical to that which the 'students' will be using IRL |
| 00:32.33 | rhowe | It's not about teaching general principles. It's about saying "to change the font to this, you drag over the text, do Format -> Font and pick the font from this combo box *point*" |
| 00:33.10 | eye69 | Yeah, the test consisted of me having to be able to say exactly in which menu I do foo. |
| 00:33.24 | Marios_ | well the whole thing is teach openoffice for example and then students go ahead and use openoffice |
| 00:33.32 | rhowe | So an OpenOffice-based equivalent will be next to useless unless the majority of Iraqi admin staff are actually going to be using OpenOffice |
| 00:34.10 | Marios_ | if there is such a training then soon employers will start thinking about switching to OpenOffice |
| 00:34.14 | rhowe | eye69: Yes, and even if you give them a valid way to achieve the same thing (i.e. shortcut key instead of menu item, or menu item instead of toolbar button) it's not considered a correct answer |
| 00:34.22 | rhowe | Marios_: I think that's wishful thinking |
| 00:34.43 | Marios_ | but some employers think that if they switch then they don |
| 00:34.57 | Marios_ | but some employers think that if they switch then they don't have any training and stuff for their employees |
| 00:35.08 | eye69 | rhowe: My teacher just got pissed off because I would spend the entire lesson time with PuTTY or equivalent and then use the last couple of minutes to complete the test. :) |
| 00:35.29 | rhowe | eye69: I would say you were wasting your time and the money of whoever was paying for it |
| 00:35.30 | Marios_ | so if someone starts providing training and enough promoting then people will think about it more |
| 00:35.39 | eye69 | rhowe: Yep. |
| 00:36.00 | rhowe | Marios_: And they'll find that it doesn't open every MS Office document out there perfectly and assume it's crap |
| 00:36.32 | Marios_ | the goal is for startups |
| 00:36.37 | rhowe | Marios_: It's like WINE - they can never be as good as MS at being MS and imitating their apps |
| 00:37.04 | rhowe | Marios_: A startup company is going to pick everything off the shelf - they may well use a services company for all the software etc |
| 00:37.04 | Marios_ | well OpenOffice has enough features |
| 00:37.06 | eye69 | rhowe: I was however not considered "unemployed", since I was in education, and that's important for the number jockeys. |
| 00:37.28 | rhowe | Marios_: enough? |
| 00:37.28 | eye69 | As long as they had somewhere to put me it didn't matter if it was a waste of time. |
| 00:38.12 | rhowe | eye69: Funded by the taxpayer, I assume? |
| 00:38.43 | Marios_ | most managers think that PC means Microsoft and word processor means Word...they have never been informed about any alternatives |
| 00:38.48 | eye69 | rhowe: Oh yes. I was put there by the Job Centre. |
| 00:38.57 | Marios_ | so this same bad habit keeps going |
| 00:39.04 | eye69 | It was in one of the government's own training centre's. |
| 00:40.16 | *** join/#gllug Leeds2 (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 00:40.24 | rhowe | Marios_: Then when they learn about the alternatives, they say "is it as good?", so you say "define good" and they say "can it do everything MS Office can?", to which you have to go "err, not quite, but it can do most of it", to which they say "does it do anything MS Office can't", and you go "err, well by default yes, but you could always program Office apps to do the same..." |
| 00:40.38 | rhowe | eye69: What a waste of money |
| 00:40.55 | rhowe | eye69: Putting people who know their way around a computer on the ECDL... |
| 00:41.08 | eye69 | That's how the system works. |
| 00:41.49 | Marios_ | yeah I agree .... but then you say the magic word: It is FREE |
| 00:42.06 | Leeds | the theory is that Iraq is one huge startup right now... |
| 00:42.09 | Marios_ | so things start getting better |
| 00:42.14 | eye69 | I heard about a network engineer course, also through the Job Centre. I expressed my interest and was accepted. Now, what would you think is included in a course for "Network Engineers"? |
| 00:42.19 | Marios_ | Leeds: exactly |
| 00:42.22 | rhowe | Marios_: And for a startup that might hold water, but for other places they go "well, we have MS Office now, so it's free to keep it - switching is going to incur costs" |
| 00:42.56 | Marios_ | well I mentioned that the goal is startups |
| 00:43.48 | Marios_ | or companies who are planning to incorporate wider use of computers in their company |
| 00:43.49 | eye69 | Let's just say that on the first day of the course I was told the truth...it was an MCP/MCSE course. |
| 00:44.22 | rhowe | I still think the driving forces behind Linux are too niche to produce a general-purpose OS. You have lots and lots of geeks who can produce cool code but can't make it usable to save their lives, you have confused graphical systems, behemoth desktop environments which are heavier on resources than even Windows, and odd little inconsistencies |
| 00:44.56 | rhowe | Like the lack of keyboard interaction in X (generally speaking - I know things like KDE and GNOME probably mandate that all apps have to be usable by keyboard alone) |
| 00:45.29 | rhowe | brb |
| 00:45.33 | Marios_ | all changes are painfull in the beginning |
| 00:46.58 | *** join/#gllug Knigh7 (~chatzilla@dsl-80-42-162-233.access.uk.tiscali.com) |
| 00:47.08 | Leeds | morning Knigh7 |
| 00:47.21 | Knigh7 | morning, |
| 00:47.41 | Knigh7 | see ther party is still on |
| 00:47.53 | Leeds | yup |
| 00:48.42 | Marios_ | where did you guys go for beer? |
| 00:48.51 | Knigh7 | i haven't had a chance to setup my connection on linux but hopefully the next time i log in it would be through linux |
| 00:49.04 | Leeds | cool |
| 00:49.45 | Knigh7 | Morios_ the green something.... |
| 00:50.05 | Knigh7 | so who is leeds2? |
| 00:50.32 | Leeds | me, on laptop and pc |
| 00:50.54 | Knigh7 | aha, did you plug your new hd in? |
| 00:51.00 | Leeds | yup |
| 00:51.06 | Leeds | got it installed |
| 00:51.45 | Knigh7 | cool..... |
| 00:51.45 | Marios_ | Leeds: when are you going for the Athlon 64 ? |