| 00:03.13 | *** join/#gllug perdenab (~perdenab@81-86-7-14.dsl.pipex.com) |
| 00:04.09 | evangineer | rhowe, ever used gridbaglayout? |
| 00:04.49 | Marios_ | I did... |
| 00:04.51 | Marios_ | it sucks |
| 00:05.03 | Marios_ | very very complicated...try Springlayout |
| 00:05.23 | evangineer | check this out http://madbean.com/blog/2004/17/totallygridbag.html |
| 00:08.15 | rhowe | evangineer: Hm, no |
| 00:08.25 | Marios_ | funny !! |
| 00:08.36 | Marios_ | it does suck indeed |
| 00:08.38 | rhowe | evangineer: I've never done anything complicated in swing - borderlayout solved most of my problems - either that or netbeans' absolutelayout |
| 00:09.21 | Marios_ | SpringLayout is good |
| 00:09.33 | rhowe | Yeah, heard good things about it |
| 00:09.35 | Marios_ | especially for designing table like stuff |
| 00:09.40 | evangineer | rhowe, did you see the link? |
| 00:10.04 | rhowe | evangineer: I did, but I'm browserless atm |
| 00:11.12 | evangineer | ah, have a look at it when you are browsered up! ;-) |
| 00:11.46 | evangineer | worse, I did it deliberately because it amused me |
| 00:13.19 | perdenab | english is a living language.... it should be exercised to its fullest |
| 00:13.31 | rhowe | fullestmost |
| 00:13.39 | evangineer | meanwhile in another channel, some geezer is clearly well liquored up. |
| 00:14.00 | evangineer | judging by his rambling and appalling puns |
| 00:14.46 | perdenab | in some parts of the anglosphere, "geezer" = gaffer |
| 00:16.57 | evangineer | amusing thing is the geezer is simultaneously passing on sage tips about assembler |
| 00:18.50 | perdenab | both convenient and sad that anglisch has lost its case endings... i pace hither and yon, reflecting whence came our fine language (descended as it is from roots francophone, gaelophone and saxophone) and whither it goeth |
| 00:20.01 | evangineer | hmm, some java programmers need to get a life http://www.killingjoke.net/gra/getStringFromObject.jpg |
| 00:21.06 | Marios_ | lol |
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| 00:38.38 | rhowe | This is going to take a while |
| 00:45.28 | rhowe | How is it? |
| 00:56.53 | evangineer | some aspects are clearly better than apt-get, but I'm not happy with the way it doesn't show recommends or suggests. it means I have to do an "aptitude show <pkgname>" before an install just to be sure I'm not missing anything. not the workflow I wanted really. |
| 00:57.03 | rhowe | *nod* |
| 00:57.11 | rhowe | apt has an option to show both of those, these days |
| 00:57.18 | rhowe | dselect of course does them too |
| 00:58.13 | evangineer | i did briefly try the dselect cli, but that was even worse! |
| 00:58.23 | rhowe | It's nice once you're used to it |
| 00:58.33 | rhowe | Also, echo expert > /etc/dpkg/dselect.cfg |
| 00:58.46 | evangineer | hmm |
| 00:59.54 | rhowe | _ to purge, + to add, enter to accept selection, X to force selection |
| 01:00.18 | rhowe | The commands are a little arbitrary :) |
| 01:01.18 | perdenab | y'know, there are people in the world who would see the above as an example of why unix sucks... too much disagreement and "lack of standards". however, what they are missing is that this is how better apps are developed, and progress is made... and that it is well and truly a big tent |
| 01:01.47 | rhowe | s/tent/cauldron of cheap stew/ |
| 01:01.53 | rhowe | You have to dig around to get the nice bits |
| 01:02.05 | perdenab | such people would have us using ibm 3090's or vms on 1200 baud terminals, with no internet |
| 01:03.08 | perdenab | i work with at least one of them... i leave him alone. reminds me of that zero-dimensional critter in "flatland" |
| 01:03.18 | rhowe | heh |
| 01:05.44 | perdenab | someone like that would read this, and wonder where the joke was http://www.pinkymcdrinky.com/jokes/1713 |
| 01:07.13 | evangineer | I would say that rather than "engineering" software, it grows and evolves |
| 01:07.52 | evangineer | you get bugs in gardens |
| 01:08.03 | evangineer | so that much fits |
| 01:08.41 | evangineer | refactoring is like pruning |
| 01:10.01 | perdenab | today i have been re-reading some bits of Carl Sagan's "Cosmos"... what a great book |
| 01:10.50 | perdenab | in one chapter he discusses how scientific thinking as we know it appeared briefly during greek times, then was snuffed out again by people who were nervous about open discussion and big tents |
| 01:11.23 | perdenab | who valued mysticism, vague bromides and "the master said so" over discussing the merits |
| 01:11.28 | evangineer | that's sounds vaguely like what is happening in the states right now. |
| 01:11.56 | perdenab | you could say the same thing about IT in the UK, particularly where the central govt is involved |
| 01:12.18 | evangineer | some forms of science are effectively verboten and others are disregarded if the conclusions they present are ideologically unsound. |
| 01:12.19 | perdenab | or, for that matter, just about any pronouncement from New Labour these days |
| 01:14.24 | evangineer | all that bollocks about id cards, biometric passports, national identity databases and the rest. |
| 01:15.00 | perdenab | it is a pity when ideology gets in the way of science. the stem cell thing, though, really does spring from a grassroots concern about using humans nazi-style for science fodder... re-using fetuses today might turn into a fetus-growing industry tomorrow, is the moral concern |
| 01:15.06 | perdenab | extreme though that might seem |
| 01:15.15 | perdenab | i agree about blunkett |
| 01:16.03 | evangineer | I understand the moral concerns and sympathize, the focus should be imposing the proper controls rather than stopping it altogether. |
| 01:16.08 | perdenab | they are pushing thru the IDs with no pretense as to justifying it... "we will not share the business case, for confidentiality reasons"... translation, it's coming cause we want it, and you get no say |
| 01:16.27 | evangineer | exactly |
| 01:16.28 | perdenab | yep, suppressing it completely will drive it into the crime underworld |
| 01:16.54 | evangineer | prohibition simply doesn't work |
| 01:17.29 | evangineer | it creates wealthy and powerful criminal enterprises |
| 01:17.33 | perdenab | here in the UK, the MMR thing was handled dreadfully... we are supposed to accept MMR because the govt shouts at us it's safe, and removes alternatives just to show who's boss |
| 01:17.38 | perdenab | not very confidence-insipring |
| 01:17.46 | evangineer | indeed |
| 01:18.13 | evangineer | funny how the govt favours choice almost everywhere else |
| 01:18.17 | perdenab | meanwhile, the one guy who was actually treating kids successfully was transferred to god knows where, for daring to differ with the party line |
| 01:19.06 | perdenab | if the govt is concerned about herd immunity due to dropping immunisation rates, let it bring back the single jabs it pointedly removed |
| 01:23.36 | evangineer | I think a lot of the decision making on these sort of issues should be made locally rather than at the centre and the people should have more of a say on the issues and provided with the resources to establish the facts for themselves and come to their own decisions. |
| 01:24.24 | perdenab | we can't have that, since if people could compare, the "accomplishments" and policies of a certain central govt might come up lacking |
| 01:24.30 | evangineer | attempts to spin backfire and the public becomes more cynical and suspicious as a result. |
| 01:24.43 | perdenab | the solution is not to improve those things, but to remove all possibilities for comparison |
| 01:26.03 | perdenab | hence the removal or attacks on bendy buses, private health and education (except where used by the leadership), private railways, volunteer organisations, and self-employed contractors, not to mention the govt's own chilling comments about IT orgs that criticise it being frozen out of the bids process |
| 01:26.30 | perdenab | agree about the cynicism |
| 01:26.51 | perdenab | s/bendy buses/routemasters/ |
| 01:27.36 | perdenab | people complain that bendy buses are worse than routemasters. the solution? retire the routemasters years early. less basis for comparison, and the whingers are figuratively smacked, all in one go |
| 01:27.49 | perdenab | public service can be such a rewarding profession |
| 01:32.58 | perdenab | and btw, i agree completely about restoring local control... i expect it will be quite a struggle though |
| 01:39.17 | evangineer | true, the current concentration of power and wealth in the system is predicated on central control |
| 01:42.25 | evangineer | add the current apparent lack of accountability and it is clear the current system is dysfunctional |
| 01:44.59 | evangineer | and btw, the civil contingencies bill is the equivalent of the usa patriot act if not worse. |
| 01:45.26 | perdenab | hopefully the new entrants to the EU will show the older states how to do things |
| 01:45.39 | evangineer | one can only hope |
| 01:46.01 | perdenab | they have been trying to get out from under the soviet model, while the EU seems tottering rather quickly in the opposite direction |
| 01:47.13 | perdenab | it has been said that one reason east germany (and now germany as a whole) is such a disaster area, is that it was not permitted to grow and thrive as hungary and czech did, because the west german govt was headed in a centralised, statist, status quo direction |
| 01:47.28 | perdenab | it was never freed to the extent of those countries |
| 01:48.37 | perdenab | ...and now the neo-nazis are getting a foothold there. luverly |
| 01:48.57 | perdenab | as such people do in badly managed systems |
| 01:49.56 | Marios_ | perdenab: that decentralised system can only work in big countries though |
| 01:50.04 | perdenab | the EU is a big place |
| 01:50.22 | perdenab | besides, a decentralised model is working very nicely in tiny switzerland |
| 01:50.24 | Marios_ | yes but you are talking about new EU countries |
| 01:50.28 | perdenab | very weak central govt |
| 01:50.57 | Marios_ | well when you have a very decentralised system you have corruption too |
| 01:51.42 | perdenab | the corruption comes from unaccountability, and fear. can happen either way, but is easier to enforce across the board with a centralised system |
| 01:52.03 | perdenab | with strong central control, someone who offends the govt can be blackballed all over the EU, not just in one province or country |
| 01:52.11 | perdenab | as in the USSR |
| 01:52.49 | Marios_ | well EU is still a baby and these things can only change slowly |
| 01:53.18 | Marios_ | but the EU newcomers have other problems to solve first and then the centralised or decentralised problem |
| 01:53.31 | perdenab | true... and i hope the current unaccounable and very nearly 100% unelected EU govt gets lots of pushback to clean up its act |
| 01:54.08 | Marios_ | as far as I know from Cyprus...at least when i was there ... every time we tried to decentralised something...it got corrupted |
| 01:54.12 | perdenab | the EU newcomers seem to value freedom a bit more than the current EU leadership |
| 01:54.17 | perdenab | at least some of them |
| 01:54.51 | perdenab | if people have good reason to fear those in power, then the govt will be corrupt whether big or small |
| 01:55.00 | Marios_ | true |
| 01:55.08 | perdenab | because the govt will always be able to silence its opponents for the price of a thug with a cricket bat |
| 01:55.13 | Marios_ | so you are right about finding models for accountability |
| 01:55.19 | Marios_ | this is the biggest concern |
| 01:55.43 | Marios_ | if everyone can be accountable of his actions first things will get better |
| 01:59.27 | Marios_ | anywayz gotta go for dinner |
| 02:00.11 | perdenab | and i gotta go to bed |
| 02:00.23 | Marios_ | talk to you later then |
| 02:00.28 | perdenab | cheers |
| 02:00.38 | Marios_ | bye ! |
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| 03:21.46 | evangineer | hmm, has nielsen been spying on me? he has an anti-centralization rant as well http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041122.html |
