| 00:05.21 | rhowe | Leeds: Familiar much with SCSI drives? |
| 00:08.49 | Leeds | not really |
| 00:09.26 | rhowe | Leeds: I have this 2G Seagate drive, which has a Sun part number (ergo you *must* know everything about it!). It has no obvious power socket on it |
| 00:10.00 | rhowe | There's an 80pin D-shaped connector on there (like a minature Centronics connector), and two places where a PCB edge connector could go |
| 00:10.09 | Leeds | done my paces, done some Hebrew... |
| 00:10.20 | Leeds | I really don't know old Sun hard drives! |
| 00:11.02 | rhowe | Have you ever seen a SCSI drive without a molex connector on it? |
| 00:12.46 | Leeds | I don't know what a molex connector is |
| 00:13.26 | rhowe | Regular 4 pin power connector as used on most hard drives (but not SATA ones - they have their own special one) |
| 00:13.27 | Leeds | you're talking to the guy who was blocked in his quest to upgrade to SATA because he didn't know that it had a different power connector to PATA - I don't know hardware, and I really don't know hard drives |
| 00:13.34 | Leeds | or storage in general |
| 00:14.03 | Leeds | storage is not my thing, except to put lots of personal backups of tv shows which haven't been on over here yet |
| 00:14.30 | rhowe | I know, but there seems to be nobody around and I have no web browser handy :) |
| 00:14.43 | rhowe | So I thought I'd just ask if you'd come across something like this |
| 00:14.48 | Leeds | my personal opinion? find a web browser :-) |
| 00:14.56 | rhowe | It would seem the answer is no :) |
| 00:16.07 | Leeds | correct |
| 00:16.27 | rhowe | This you probably will have an idea about though |
| 00:16.45 | rhowe | Does 700kbit/s seem somewhat slow for 802.11g with high signal strength? |
| 00:16.54 | rhowe | (with WEP) |
| 00:17.29 | rhowe | Since you've actually used this stuff before, and I haven't :) |
| 00:18.52 | Leeds | yes, a little |
| 00:19.32 | Leeds | I normally assume that the maximum I'm going to get through is about 2Mbyte/s |
| 00:19.57 | Leeds | at least - I think my network monitor is working in bytes :-) |
| 00:20.50 | rhowe | OK, well that's something to try and improve upon later |
| 00:20.57 | Leeds | ooh, you never want to send a 3-line joke email to the gllug list quoting an entire digest below your top-post... from a novell.com address no less |
| 00:21.10 | rhowe | hehe |
| 00:21.28 | rhowe | reminds me - need to finish this network off so that I have a mail server once more |
| 00:21.37 | Leeds | mail is overrated |
| 00:22.18 | rhowe | It is, but it's the way I read Gllug |
| 00:27.49 | Leeds | suppose so |
| 00:28.58 | rhowe | And running my own mail server allows me to use mutt, which prevents me from top-posting |
| 00:29.04 | rhowe | This can only be a good thing... |
| 00:41.06 | evangineer | that's the annoying thing about gmail, it defaults to top-posting. not good as I mainly use it for mailing lists. |
| 00:44.05 | itsbruce | rhowe: You don't need to run much of a mail server to use Mutt. esmtp is often enough for a workstation. |
| 00:46.43 | rhowe | itsbruce: Oh I have everything configured, just that the network it's configured for doesn't exist right now :) |
| 00:47.01 | rhowe | itsbruce: My network's been in pieces since I moved - just starting to put it together bit by bit |
| 00:47.12 | itsbruce | Ah |
| 00:47.29 | rhowe | btw, I'll be putting a small order in with Aria soon (this week, probably). If anyone wants to order anything and split the delivery cost, please do |
| 00:47.59 | rhowe | I'm only ordering little bits, so paying a tenner delivery would be a bit painful |
| 00:48.19 | rhowe | (serial cables, fans, VGA cable, SCA converter, power converter, etc) |
| 00:49.34 | *** join/#gllug Eeyore (~Eeyore@82-35-40-151.cable.ubr02.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 00:49.46 | Leeds | morning Eeyore |
| 00:49.46 | Eeyore | anyone here know how redhat init scripts work |
| 00:49.50 | Eeyore | morning |
| 00:50.03 | Eeyore | i watched the sun webcast for solaris yesterday |
| 00:51.00 | edward | lots of errors |
| 00:51.07 | Eeyore | i tried symlinking something into my init.d directory in the hope that would work. but when i ran the command to configure runlevels it tells me "service courier-imapd does not support chkconfig" |
| 00:51.46 | Eeyore | so i lookup redhat/sysvinitd script writing guidelines and rewrite a script from scratch that wraps the other scripts. pleased with my handy work i rung chkconfig again |
| 00:51.49 | Leeds | Eeyore: what about solaris? |
| 00:51.57 | Eeyore | to get "service courier-imapd does not support chkconfig" |
| 00:51.59 | Eeyore | heh |
| 00:52.18 | rhowe | edward: !good |
| 00:52.35 | Leeds | edward: ugh |
| 00:52.47 | edward | two 512MB DIMMs, pull one out and the machine works |
| 00:52.55 | Eeyore | suggestion: try different memory? |
| 00:53.09 | edward | just have to post one DIMM back to ebuyer |
| 00:53.13 | Leeds | Eeyore: I don't know redhat/fedora init scripts, or I'd help |
| 00:53.17 | itsbruce | Eeyore: chkconfig uses magic comments at the beginning of init scripts |
| 00:53.18 | edward | Eeyore: do you mean try a diffrent slot? |
| 00:53.39 | itsbruce | Look at the other scripts to see what they do. It isn't complex. |
| 00:53.44 | Eeyore | try both slots with the good simm then if that works try sending back the dodgy one? |
| 00:53.57 | Eeyore | magic comments |
| 00:54.01 | Eeyore | hmm, perhaps i deleted them |
| 00:54.02 | Eeyore | ta |
| 00:55.24 | Eeyore | leeds: yes some engineering saying how solaris is the fastest, bestest, securist, OS ever with a zillion zillion manhours of development. |
| 00:55.34 | Leeds | fair enough |
| 00:55.53 | Eeyore | i thought they were maybe they were PR people, but they were sweating enough to be engineers |
| 00:56.03 | Eeyore | So how is the redhat on linux thing going? |
| 00:56.15 | Eeyore | Actually i took a peak at the solaris download section |
| 00:56.17 | Leeds | you mean linux on solaris? |
| 00:56.26 | Eeyore | Errr maybe? |
| 00:56.42 | Leeds | yeah, it's, um, going... |
| 00:56.45 | Eeyore | I thought the PR blurb was something about working on redhat compatability |
| 00:56.56 | Eeyore | perhaps that was my imagination |
| 00:57.06 | Leeds | nope |
| 00:57.41 | Eeyore | Is it true that the OS is security updates are FREE |
| 00:57.45 | Eeyore | and in "no money" |
| 00:57.47 | Leeds | that is, nope, it probably wasn't your imagination |
| 00:57.53 | Leeds | as far as I know, yes, it's free |
| 00:58.06 | Eeyore | Hmm |
| 00:58.09 | Eeyore | that's cheaper than redhat |
| 00:58.22 | Leeds | yes - that's sort of the point :-) |
| 00:58.27 | Eeyore | infact it's cheaper even if you buy subscriptions |
| 00:58.38 | Eeyore | for the other updates |
| 00:59.06 | Eeyore | You reckon the security updates will remain free? |
| 00:59.37 | Eeyore | and this time solaris on x86 doesn't mean every program prints the message "requires sparc"? |
| 00:59.47 | Eeyore | I might have to try it again |
| 00:59.53 | Leeds | if anything, x86 is now the focus |
| 01:00.37 | Eeyore | At work we have a 30ish machine cluster running redhat 7.2 looking for potential upgrade paths |
| 01:00.52 | Leeds | heh, cool |
| 01:00.59 | Eeyore | ever since they stopped redhat support i've just been umming and erring |
| 01:01.06 | Eeyore | 7.3 |
| 01:01.08 | Eeyore | i lie. |
| 01:01.47 | Eeyore | I'm going to give solaris10 another go on my dev machine and if that works, i'll sneak it into the data center when no ones looking |
| 01:02.07 | Eeyore | assuming dtrace supports java by the time i finish getting our app ported over. |
| 01:02.14 | itsbruce | Why move to Solaris rather than another Linux distro? Not that I'm knocking Solaris but least change necessary is usually a good thing |
| 01:02.40 | Leeds | last thing I heard, dtrace will run against the jvm just fine, but it can't see inside it - but that could have changed |
| 01:03.02 | Eeyore | it may be in now, if not it's in release schedule |
| 01:03.06 | Eeyore | there is a sun blog on it |
| 01:03.38 | Eeyore | itsbruce: well we have to move, if we move off a platform supporting RPM i see relatively little between solaris and debian. |
| 01:03.58 | Eeyore | might be a bit more effort but i would really like dtrace |
| 01:04.28 | Eeyore | I want to get it running on solaris regardless if they get JVM/dtrace working. so i will have done the effort |
| 01:05.12 | Eeyore | if i can get say a 20% performance improvement using dtrace we can avoid expanding the cluster and save $$$ |
| 01:05.22 | Eeyore | also the smaller the cluster the easier it is to manage |
| 01:05.37 | Leeds | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:05.47 | Eeyore | only in the vague PR sense |
| 01:06.00 | Eeyore | seems like you can write scripts to analyse different things |
| 01:06.08 | Leeds | it doesn't give a speed improvement by itself - what it gives you is the information to optimise to improve performance |
| 01:06.26 | Eeyore | kind of like what i do at the moment with top,lsof,jprofiler,etc, only better integrating and can run on prod without killing the machine. |
| 01:06.58 | Leeds | right |
| 01:07.13 | Leeds | it is very very cool at what it does |
| 01:07.13 | Eeyore | yes i realise it doesn't rewrite the code for me - that would be neat though ;) |
| 01:08.02 | Leeds | just trying to avoid the hype a little... |
| 01:08.02 | Eeyore | less than 1% of our codebase is actually hit hard. But analysing it is difficult |
| 01:08.16 | Eeyore | cos whenever you connect a profiler the machine dies |
| 01:08.25 | Eeyore | (if it's under high load) |
| 01:08.37 | Eeyore | the profiling overhead is so high, everything goes awol |
| 01:08.43 | Leeds | I used dtrace more for kernel debugging than profiling, and it made things much easier :-) |
| 01:09.16 | Eeyore | yes well hopefully the solaris kernel is fully working cos i don't want to have to do that :) |
| 01:09.52 | Leeds | heh |
| 01:10.07 | Eeyore | i suppose the chances of the redhat compat stuff meaning that a redhat rpm might install onto solaris is 0% |
| 01:10.27 | Leeds | right now that's true because it's not there |
| 01:10.31 | Eeyore | hehe |
| 01:10.33 | Eeyore | okay |
| 01:10.44 | edward | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3866526512 <-- amazon.com for sale on eBay |
| 01:10.46 | Eeyore | well it might take me 3 months to configure the network card so keep working. |
| 01:11.00 | Leeds | but once it is there, the idea is that yes, a random rpm should work - depending on the rpm, obviously |
| 01:11.24 | Leeds | when it will be there is currently a somewhat fluid issue |
| 01:11.58 | Eeyore | if i wrote the rpm? |
| 01:12.00 | Eeyore | hehe |
| 01:12.06 | Eeyore | that's why i ask |
| 01:12.18 | Leeds | if it's a pure userspace app, it should work |
| 01:12.22 | Eeyore | yeah |
| 01:12.32 | Eeyore | most of the stuff is just fluff |
| 01:12.39 | Eeyore | although i say that |
| 01:12.42 | Leeds | ? |
| 01:12.46 | Eeyore | probably loads of it is redhat specific |
| 01:13.03 | Leeds | in what way? |
| 01:13.04 | Eeyore | like it installs files all over the place and fonts and configures services using chkconfig |
| 01:13.31 | Leeds | that should work... |
| 01:13.46 | Leeds | in theory |
| 01:13.53 | Eeyore | does the emulation thing make the filesystem look like redhats too? or is that top secret? |
| 01:14.05 | Eeyore | or is it already close enough to work. |
| 01:14.24 | Leeds | believe me, I want to discuss this, but I probably shouldn't |
| 01:14.35 | Eeyore | okily dokily |
| 01:14.44 | itsbruce | Eeyore: have a look at the FreeBSD or OpenBSD Linux compatibility stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if the Solaris effort is similar in design |
| 01:14.53 | Eeyore | aye |
| 01:15.18 | Eeyore | specificially itsbruce it's redhat compatabililty that is useful not linux per-day. |
| 01:16.43 | Leeds | itsbruce: the goal is specifically redhat compatibility and lsb compliance, and yes, we used the bsd stuff as reference heavily |
| 01:17.31 | Eeyore | we have custom redhat rpms and mainly java stuff. so the target system having a good jvm and installing rpms is probably more useful than say being linux like. |
| 01:17.57 | Leeds | linux jvms run okay - the Sun ones, anyway :-) |
| 01:18.20 | Eeyore | yes i know we run the sun one |
| 01:18.25 | Eeyore | it only occasionaly crashes |
| 01:18.32 | Leeds | heh |
| 01:18.41 | rhowe | Must be the hardware ;) |
| 01:19.08 | Eeyore | recent crashes are documented flaws in the version we have installed. like installing a slighly corrupt font in the system kills the whole JVM deado. |
| 01:19.12 | Eeyore | that one amused me |
| 01:19.24 | Eeyore | i was in a total panic, the JVM kept falling over and over |
| 01:19.26 | Leeds | nice |
| 01:19.38 | Eeyore | and i kept bringing it back up. it ran then after a random time it fell again |
| 01:20.15 | Eeyore | after 40minutes some guy came over. "i keep uploading this font in the webfront end and it's not working. also the system keeps on dieing" |
| 01:20.28 | Eeyore | me: "Argggh! Stop uploading it!" |
| 01:20.39 | Leeds | lol |
| 01:20.58 | Eeyore | I couldn't understand how the two could be related but sure enough they were. |
| 01:21.04 | Leeds | users... the world would be so much simpler without them |
| 01:21.10 | Eeyore | quite |
| 01:31.14 | Eeyore | itsbruce: any idea what the magic number are in the magic line about chkconfig |
| 01:37.20 | itsbruce | http://www.netadmintools.com/art94.html |
| 01:38.22 | itsbruce | I am not, as a rule, a fan of magic comments but initscripts are rarely edited |
| 02:03.13 | Leeds | sleepy time |
| 02:04.47 | Eeyore | I thinks I made Leeds feel better about his jobs |
| 02:04.49 | Eeyore | job |
| 02:04.54 | Eeyore | by telling him about mine |
| 02:06.55 | Eeyore | bloody magic numbers |
| 02:06.59 | Eeyore | still doesn't work |
| 02:08.37 | Eeyore | arr, it needed some other magic waft |
| 07:25.37 | Cope | morning |
| 07:45.01 | *** join/#gllug Jango (~Jango@pgnn.demon.co.uk) |
| 08:09.28 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 08:22.01 | Cope | hello Leeds |
| 08:23.08 | Leeds | boker tov Cope |
| 08:32.58 | Cope | what is the name of the timezone of france, germany etc? |
| 08:33.11 | Cope | is that central european |
| 08:34.13 | gregj | for germany, poland, .cz, .sk, etc it is CET |
| 08:34.26 | gregj | france certainly not |
| 08:34.31 | gregj | it's probably west eu |
| 08:34.45 | Cope | +1? |
| 08:35.09 | gregj | CET is +1 if you mean UK time |
| 08:35.28 | Leeds | CET is everywhere from Spain east - probably portugal as well |
| 08:35.34 | Leeds | and yes, it's +1 |
| 08:35.37 | Cope | I mean GMT :-) |
| 08:35.42 | Cope | cool |
| 08:35.52 | Leeds | gregj: .pl is still CET? that's a wide zone... |
| 08:36.05 | gregj | yep |
| 08:36.13 | gregj | PL is in central europe, so it must be CET |
| 08:36.14 | gregj | ;] |
| 08:36.52 | Leeds | right, but Spain certainly isn't in central Europe, but is in CET :-) |
| 08:37.13 | gregj | russia for sure isn't thou, but they have few zones up there |
| 08:37.25 | Leeds | hmm... no, Portugal is in GMT |
| 08:37.38 | Leeds | yeah, Russia couldn't all be one zone... |
| 08:39.26 | Leeds | personally, I think it's a bit dumb that France and Spain are one timezone east of the UK, given that one is straight south, and the other is west |
| 08:42.55 | Cope | I think portugal is odd - +30 mins? |
| 08:43.32 | Cope | nope - gmt |
| 08:43.34 | Cope | as Leeds says |
| 08:44.38 | Leeds | there are very few non-round-hour timezones... the weirder things come in when you consider summertime/daylight savings time, particularly in the US where it's not a universal thing |
| 08:45.55 | Cope | USA in not-adhering-to-universal-standards shock. |
| 08:48.19 | Leeds | the issue isn't so much the US not adhering to the standards, it's that *some* of the US adheres - some states have summertime, some don't - so time differences don't even stay constant within the country! |
| 09:00.23 | Leeds | getting to time to get out of bed... |
| 09:25.51 | Leeds | ooh, Charlie-boy is getting married |
| 09:37.22 | *** join/#gllug SlayerXP (~Mart@burningchrome.demon.co.uk) |
| 09:44.49 | Cope | morning SlayerXP |
| 09:45.41 | SlayerXP | lo Herr Nelson |
| 10:07.49 | Cope | word gets upset why I do things like escape, yy, 3j, p |
| 10:19.16 | SlayerXP | word stares blankly at esc-gq} |
| 10:19.22 | SlayerXP | which is a shame, cos it's a useful command |
| 10:21.58 | SlayerXP | Peter Childs in "talking utter bollocks" *shocker* |
| 10:24.46 | Cope | SlayerXP in slapping ignorant tosser heroics. |
| 10:25.10 | SlayerXP | hmm? |
| 10:25.19 | SlayerXP | oh, my reply |
| 10:25.39 | SlayerXP | the rubbish was referring to his pelling and grammar. |
| 10:25.48 | SlayerXP | but he was techinically talking bollocks too :) |
| 10:30.35 | *** join/#gllug evangineer (~evanginee@spc1-seve3-4-0-cust230.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) |
| 10:49.49 | Leeds | cool, larry lessig on the west wing |
| 10:50.12 | Cope | you have a large estate? |
| 10:50.18 | Leeds | well, an actor playing him |
| 11:02.31 | *** join/#gllug mz2 (~mz@81-1-73-144.homechoice.co.uk) |
| 11:13.50 | *** join/#gllug [Jango] (~kvirc@pacemetrics.plus.com) |
| 11:42.51 | *** join/#gllug pdr (~pdr@213.86.35.150) |
| 11:58.35 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~rc112576@fluorine.eu.sun.com) |
| 12:00.27 | pdr | moin |
| 12:06.31 | Leeds | shalom |
| 12:06.40 | wethrin | 'lo |
| 12:06.47 | pdr | peace |
| 12:07.20 | Leeds | salaam |
| 12:19.21 | rhowe | heh, from the Courier-IMAP source: /* IMAP sucks. Here's why. */ |
| 12:19.34 | rhowe | int mailbox_scan(const char *reference, const char *name, int list_options, int (*callback_func)(const char *hiersep, const char *mailbox, int flags, void *void_arg), void *void_arg) |
| 12:19.44 | Leeds | imap is very nice, if slightly overcomplicated |
| 12:20.59 | wethrin | It's horribly complicated |
| 12:24.11 | *** join/#gllug io2 (~io2@host81-153-112-119.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) |
| 12:32.58 | George | foo |
| 12:34.38 | wethrin | bar |
| 12:39.35 | Leeds | Roy d'Espagne |
| 12:43.26 | pdr | horse |
| 12:44.54 | wethrin | Yes |
| 12:52.20 | wethrin | :) |
| 12:52.57 | George | Leeds: lol |
| 12:53.32 | [Jango] | am i the only one who still uses pop? :/ |
| 12:53.44 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: yes :) |
| 12:54.11 | wethrin | I use it too |
| 12:54.59 | Leeds | [Jango]: pretty much - just you and wethrin |
| 12:54.59 | wethrin | :) |
| 12:55.22 | Leeds | oh, and tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dial-up users stuck with their ISPs mail system who don't know any better |
| 12:55.23 | [Jango] | i like my technology to mature :) |
| 12:55.30 | wethrin | I like POP |
| 12:55.40 | [Jango] | pop is fine for what i need it for |
| 13:00.09 | SlayerXP | Leeds: they don't count |
| 13:02.23 | mz2 | aAAAAAAAaargh! |
| 13:02.31 | SlayerXP | sorry |
| 13:02.42 | mz2 | chemistry sucks!!! |
| 13:02.55 | wethrin | Does not |
| 13:02.56 | SlayerXP | not, that's physics |
| 13:02.58 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 13:03.04 | wethrin | No, Physics is good. Vacuums suck |
| 13:03.21 | SlayerXP | it it moves it's biology, if it changes it's chemistry, if it doesn't work, it's physics |
| 13:03.33 | mz2 | chemists come up with this flaky models that sort of work, sometimes, with which you can explain things you already know but nothing more |
| 13:03.39 | mz2 | these |
| 13:04.02 | wethrin | If it stinks and goes bang, it's Chemistry |
| 13:05.16 | Leeds | gravity sucks |
| 13:05.49 | wethrin | yeah |
| 13:05.50 | [Jango] | actually, chemistry and physics both rock :P |
| 13:06.30 | SlayerXP | if chemistry and physics were linux distros, they'd both be debian |
| 13:06.39 | Leeds | [Jango]: surely geology rocks? |
| 13:06.39 | wethrin | No. Physics would be Slackware |
| 13:06.49 | wethrin | :) |
| 13:07.05 | SlayerXP | no, physics maintains itself with no effort from us |
| 13:07.26 | Leeds | yes, it's there, it just works, and when it comes down to it, you can rely on it - plus, one perfect creator |
| 13:07.51 | mz2 | chemistry would be redhat 5.2 |
| 13:07.55 | mz2 | crap |
| 13:08.22 | Leeds | biology would be windows - it does work, mostly, but no-one is quite sure how, and most people believe there's no way it was designed like that |
| 13:08.42 | Leeds | it just sort of happened |
| 13:08.44 | SlayerXP | and gets infected easily? |
| 13:08.55 | Leeds | yup |
| 13:10.09 | wethrin | Chemistry is fun |
| 13:10.29 | SlayerXP | i took part in a Christmas Lecture |
| 13:10.31 | SlayerXP | *fact* |
| 13:10.35 | wethrin | When? |
| 13:10.46 | SlayerXP | ages ago |
| 13:10.51 | SlayerXP | i was about 13 |
| 13:10.55 | Leeds | you were shown as an example of evolution gone wrong? |
| 13:10.56 | wethrin | Audience participation, rather than just being in the audience? |
| 13:11.00 | SlayerXP | i got to hold a fire extinguisher |
| 13:11.09 | mz2 | lol |
| 13:11.49 | wethrin | Oooh |
| 13:12.14 | Leeds | fire is fun |
| 13:12.25 | wethrin | Yes |
| 13:12.49 | wethrin | We had fun in one demonstration where they dipped a wooden pole in liquid oxygen and set fire to it, then were unable to put it out |
| 13:13.08 | Leeds | not even by adding liquid hydrogen? |
| 13:13.32 | wethrin | Muahaha |
| 13:13.48 | wethrin | Hydrogen doesn't liquify at standard pressures, does it? |
| 13:13.49 | Leeds | surely if you add liquid hydrogen to liquid oxygen you get water? |
| 13:14.03 | wethrin | Very cold water :) |
| 13:14.16 | Leeds | even better for putting out a fire, I'd think |
| 13:14.46 | wethrin | Mmm |
| 13:16.48 | mz2 | tesco's basil and tomato soup sucks, too |
| 13:17.04 | evangineer | Leeds: gravity does not suck, it attracts! ;-) |
| 13:17.36 | Leeds | there's no such thing as gravity, the earth just sucks? |
| 13:18.03 | Leeds | mz2: I prefer M&S soup - or Waitrose have a nice third-party brand |
| 13:18.43 | mz2 | i agree, the Waitrose soups are really nice :) |
| 13:20.39 | Leeds | I'm very into the morrocan vegetable soup they sell |
| 13:25.31 | mz2 | mmm |
| 13:25.56 | Leeds | I think that will be dinner tonight in fact :-) |
| 13:26.25 | mz2 | i've spent the last 2 weeks revising madly for these exams and in the end i think my understanding sort of peaked at the one week point, from which i've felt gradually more and more stupid :D |
| 13:26.35 | Leeds | oops |
| 13:26.50 | Leeds | see, that's why I always tried to avoid any revision except immediately before exams |
| 13:30.54 | evangineer | mz2, ever read any Tony Buzan's books on memory and learning? Apparently there is a definite rhythm when it comes to memory and comprehension. |
| 13:31.17 | *** join/#gllug SlayerXP (~Mart@burningchrome.demon.co.uk) |
| 13:32.34 | mz2 | evangineer, i haven't, but i reckon, i should |
| 13:40.07 | Cope | at what point do I stop arguing with Bruce? Since neither of us are going to agree with each other? |
| 13:40.47 | Leeds | Cope: are you volunteering to have a shootout at a meeting then? :-) |
| 13:41.43 | evangineer | Cope: if you've come to that conclusion, now would be a good time to agree to disagree. |
| 13:43.32 | Leeds | Cope: you had to get a dig in at Solaris, huh? |
| 13:43.46 | SlayerXP | Cope: well, you're clearly wrong, so just apologise and give up the debate. |
| 13:50.42 | Cope | 3 cheers for working from home. |
| 13:51.15 | wethrin | lazy :-P |
| 13:54.57 | evangineer | Peter Childs is a bit full of it, isn't he? |
| 13:55.30 | SlayerXP | he's just plain wrong |
| 13:55.43 | pdr | "Two Questions"? |
| 13:55.49 | evangineer | yes, your response was succinct and to the point |
| 13:55.56 | SlayerXP | Sluggishness and confusion |
| 13:57.24 | *** join/#gllug xander (~xander@3ffe:4005:100b:1:207:e9ff:fe11:e9be) |
| 13:58.24 | gregj | http://www.ffii.org/~zoobab/banana/banana-europe-flag.png |
| 13:59.23 | evangineer | one of bruce's key points is about the separation of mechanism and policy, he clearly believes that RH have got that wrong. |
| 14:01.54 | evangineer | extra style marks for the excellent quote from Doctor Mirabilis |
| 14:03.03 | SlayerXP | which quote is that? |
| 14:05.24 | evangineer | Bitterly it mathinketh me, that I spent mine wholle lyf in the lists |
| 14:05.24 | evangineer | against the ignorant. -- Roger Bacon, "Doctor Mirabilis" |
| 14:05.32 | Cope | evangineer: yes, which debian fails at too. Ask SlayerXP why debian is like $THIS and he'll say 'because that's how we want it - and it works for me'; Redhat say the same, from a different perspective. |
| 14:06.35 | wethrin | Clearly their perspective is wrong ;-) |
| 14:06.48 | Cope | clearly - its not debian. |
| 14:07.22 | evangineer | at the end of the day, it's horses for courses |
| 14:07.56 | SlayerXP | no, it's debian for sysadmins who like free time, and redhat for people who like trying to spend hours maintaining systems |
| 14:08.04 | Cope | apart from fedora being much quicker than debian or ubuntu when it comes to running gnome. |
| 14:08.07 | Cope | :-) |
| 14:08.18 | wethrin | Heh |
| 14:08.24 | wethrin | So don't run Gnome :) |
| 14:08.35 | SlayerXP | i bet gnome on your pc is slower than gnome on mine |
| 14:08.42 | Cope | I wouldn't use gnome. |
| 14:08.48 | SlayerXP | ditto kde |
| 14:08.51 | Cope | ditto |
| 14:09.03 | SlayerXP | ditto, well, anything |
| 14:09.15 | Cope | yeah - I wouldn't use a computer |
| 14:09.34 | Cope | i'd use a pen and paper |
| 14:10.07 | evangineer | BeatrIX says it has a kernelized Gnome approach that I don't have a clue about, but makes big claims about performance (and it runs gnome on a ubuntu base) |
| 14:10.14 | wethrin | SlayerXP: You don't use anything? |
| 14:10.22 | wethrin | ....kernelized Gnome? |
| 14:10.23 | wethrin | OW! |
| 14:10.26 | wethrin | Ew ew ew ew ew |
| 14:10.35 | wethrin | Some people need to be battered and deep-fried |
| 14:12.17 | wethrin | Good idea |
| 14:12.25 | wethrin | But he didn't kernelize Gnome |
| 14:12.49 | wethrin | Say, what about putting video drivers in kernel-space too. And tying the web browser into the OS? |
| 14:13.21 | evangineer | I suspect that might have been an inspiration |
| 14:13.28 | wethrin | *spit* |
| 14:13.46 | wethrin | I have a fundamental disagreement with that system |
| 14:14.15 | wethrin | heh |
| 14:14.19 | wethrin | Ask them for it |
| 14:14.49 | evangineer | that's the big problem I have with Mepis, they've built on Debian but they don't make any of their sources available |
| 14:15.01 | evangineer | that's just wrong imho |
| 14:15.29 | wethrin | It's possibly Not Allowed, depending on the particular programs' licences |
| 14:16.03 | evangineer | when warren was faced with having to open up the mepis utils sources under the GPL, he went off and bought a commercial QT licence. |
| 14:16.25 | wethrin | heh |
| 14:16.51 | evangineer | this is the reason /me is running kanotix instead of mepis |
| 14:17.10 | gregj | qt is on GPL, so why buying it ? |
| 14:17.32 | wethrin | gregj: QT is still dual-licenced, isn't it? |
| 14:17.41 | evangineer | gregj: he doesn't want to open his sources obviously. |
| 14:18.05 | *** join/#gllug xander (~xander@3ffe:4005:100b:1:207:e9ff:fe11:e9be) |
| 14:18.42 | gregj | evangineer: well, qt is also good enough, it's worth the price |
| 14:19.04 | gregj | unlike gtk, which is free, qt is something that speeds up development and makes it real plesure |
| 14:19.51 | evangineer | gregj, I'm not knocking qt I just have a problem with a distro built on debian not being free as in freedom |
| 14:20.28 | gregj | sure |
| 14:20.43 | gregj | but if one wants to close his sources, it is his decision |
| 14:21.05 | gregj | I am writing loads of closed source apps, based on qt too |
| 14:21.17 | gregj | you have to make living out of something at the end of the day |
| 14:21.28 | JAV | hello |
| 14:21.31 | gregj | of coz one can sell debian too |
| 14:21.32 | gregj | ;] |
| 14:22.43 | evangineer | I don't have a problem in general with people doing closed source, the issue is that debian is the distro that champions software freedom and this guy's created a closed source version of it. |
| 14:23.08 | gregj | he is not able to close sources of something that was GPLed |
| 14:23.51 | evangineer | I don't believe you can find any of the mepis sources on the net. |
| 14:24.07 | SlayerXP | is anyone of a fedora box right now? |
| 14:24.09 | SlayerXP | on a |
| 14:24.26 | SlayerXP | if so, could you please tell me the available version of OO.o and postgres. |
| 14:25.09 | SlayerXP | fc3 for preference |
| 14:25.14 | JAV | SlayerXP: linuxdistro.org? |
| 14:25.31 | SlayerXP | JAV: que? |
| 14:26.05 | xander | openoffice.org-1.1.3-2.5.fc3 |
| 14:26.31 | xander | postgresql-server-7.4.7-1.FC3.2 |
| 14:26.34 | SlayerXP | thankyou. |
| 14:26.36 | JAV | http://distrowatch.com/ |
| 14:26.44 | JAV | that's what I meant |
| 14:26.44 | JAV | :D |
| 14:29.18 | Cope | Can anyone who is running Oracle 10g on Debian put their hands up if they have tier 4 support from both OS and Software providers |
| 14:29.19 | SlayerXP | Cope: you see where I'm going here? :) |
| 14:30.12 | Cope | SlayerXP: but compare like with like - I'm on sarge now... lets see what I have available |
| 14:31.37 | SlayerXP | 7.4.7 I think for postgres |
| 14:36.32 | SlayerXP | I now expect to be told that you can get bleeding edge versions for FC3 |
| 14:37.02 | Cope | lol |
| 14:37.21 | pdr | Cope: oracle is a PITA on any distro of linux |
| 14:37.37 | SlayerXP | I shall reply along the lines of that, in the real world, we don't want bleeding edge versions of stuff, we have work to do. |
| 14:37.37 | Cope | I don't have any problems. |
| 14:37.39 | *** join/#gllug isiluin (~dylan@awesome.plus.com) |
| 14:37.51 | Cope | SlayerXP: which is why you run servers on sid? |
| 14:37.52 | SlayerXP | oracle's installer is _the_ most stupid thing ever |
| 14:38.05 | SlayerXP | Cope: sid is not bleeding edge |
| 14:38.35 | SlayerXP | and how often do you see me complaining about stuff not working in debian on the list? |
| 14:38.41 | SlayerXP | i.e. never. |
| 14:39.21 | SlayerXP | I've used sid continously for the past 6 years |
| 14:39.54 | SlayerXP | there has been breakage, sure, but an install I did _6 years ago_ has been continously and seamlessly kept up to date |
| 14:40.03 | Cope | how often do you hear me complaining about stuff not working on redhat? I occasionally have trouble with some of the dodgy glue that ex-employees use to stick bits together. |
| 14:40.42 | SlayerXP | Cope: your voice gets drowned out by the zillions of weenies who've installed dodgy RPMs and wonder why stuff has broken |
| 14:41.15 | Cope | lol |
| 14:41.39 | SlayerXP | anyway let's summarise |
| 14:41.42 | *** part/#gllug isiluin (~dylan@awesome.plus.com) |
| 14:41.46 | evangineer | distros that don't act predictably (like gentoo) give me the heebie-jeebies |
| 14:41.47 | SlayerXP | beer drinking: debian wins |
| 14:41.53 | SlayerXP | arm wrestling: debian wins |
| 14:41.59 | SlayerXP | pub quiz: debian wins |
| 14:42.54 | Cope | biggest collection of self-important zealots... |
| 14:42.54 | [Jango] | gentoo is predictable enough for me |
| 14:43.11 | SlayerXP | Cope: gentoo wins |
| 14:43.17 | Cope | SlayerXP: indeed :-) |
| 14:43.33 | Cope | [Jango]'s timing was sumtuous. |
| 14:43.37 | Cope | with a p |
| 14:43.44 | [Jango] | :P |
| 14:45.07 | Cope | sorry client - yes, I know your webserver is performing really slowly - you see I'm recompiling the whole world because I'm really l33t. |
| 14:46.19 | [Jango] | hehe, or the debian version: |
| 14:46.23 | SlayerXP | please try again in an hour when I expect this production build of apache2.1alpha18 to be complete |
| 14:46.39 | [Jango] | sorry your webserver is 6 months out of date, the new debian package isn't out yet |
| 14:46.45 | SlayerXP | mute:~# apt-cache show apache2 | grep Version |
| 14:46.45 | SlayerXP | Version: 2.0.53-2 |
| 14:46.50 | SlayerXP | yeah, really out of date |
| 14:46.53 | Cope | what a joy to plug in this machine yesterday, having been off line for a few weeks, type one line, go and make a cup of tea, and come back 10 mins later to have an up-to-date, secure, working system. |
| 14:47.00 | [Jango] | you're not using stable then? |
| 14:47.15 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: why would I? |
| 14:47.31 | [Jango] | isn't that standard debian fare? |
| 14:47.35 | SlayerXP | no |
| 14:47.38 | Cope | no |
| 14:47.39 | evangineer | to be fair, if you were running gentoo in production, the sensible thing would be to have dedicated build machine(s) that creates binary packages that can be deployed on the production machines. |
| 14:48.09 | Cope | evangineer: to be fair, if you were running gentoo in production you couldn't possibly be called sensible. |
| 14:48.10 | SlayerXP | evangineer: to be fair, if you were running gentoo in production, the sensible thing would be to sack your systems architect and sysadmin, and start again |
| 14:48.15 | [Jango] | to be fair, most production machines are only being used for their production software at certain times |
| 14:48.25 | Cope | in which parallel universe? |
| 14:49.02 | [Jango] | Cope: if that was to me, in this bank, for example |
| 14:49.26 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: please please tell me you don't work for HSBC |
| 14:49.30 | [Jango] | our software is used between 8gmt and 5est |
| 14:49.32 | [Jango] | SlayerXP: no |
| 14:49.53 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: and not DNB ? |
| 14:50.09 | [Jango] | who are dnb? |
| 14:50.20 | SlayerXP | evangineer: presumably he gets paid by the hour to watch ./configure scripts run |
| 14:50.31 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: Den Norske Bank |
| 14:50.35 | SlayerXP | they're a bank |
| 14:50.47 | [Jango] | do they even have a london branch :P |
| 14:50.50 | SlayerXP | yes |
| 14:51.12 | [Jango] | i'm not an employee for a bank, i work as a software vendor |
| 14:51.18 | [Jango] | and currently i'm sitting in DB |
| 14:51.20 | Cope | a salesman! |
| 14:51.24 | Cope | evil! |
| 14:51.35 | SlayerXP | 20, St. Dunstan's Hill |
| 14:51.35 | SlayerXP | London EC3R 8HY |
| 14:51.35 | SlayerXP | England |
| 14:51.44 | SlayerXP | been there, very posh building |
| 14:52.14 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: any other myths about debian you'd like me to dispell? |
| 14:52.34 | [Jango] | nah, but i've got no reason to use debian really |
| 14:52.45 | SlayerXP | except the one about it being developed by anal hippies |
| 14:52.48 | SlayerXP | that's true |
| 14:52.54 | Cope | :) |
| 14:53.03 | Cope | and is, in fact, an advantage. |
| 14:57.14 | evangineer | postgresql 8.1 isn't even out yet, Peter Childs isn't doing himself any favours |
| 14:57.24 | Cope | lol |
| 14:58.48 | SlayerXP | i just sent an email along those lines, as it happens |
| 14:58.57 | Cope | ooh |
| 15:01.57 | Cope | classic |
| 15:12.53 | Leeds | evangineer: a while back, you pointed me at a rescue CD with a load of third-party diagnostic tools on it - don't suppose you fancy pointing me at it again? :-) |
| 15:15.22 | evangineer | tut tut! are you talking about the one with the vendor-specific DOS based tools, Leeds? |
| 15:15.33 | pdr | SlayerXP: i used to sing in a choir that practised at st dunstans in the west |
| 15:15.58 | *** join/#gllug [Jango] (~kvirc@pacemetrics.plus.com) |
| 15:16.37 | Leeds | evangineer: yes - the one which hopefully has the vendor-specific tool from Maxtor, which will prevent me having to work out how to run their windows-based installer for their DOS-based tool so I can diagnose a broken drive and get a replacement |
| 15:16.37 | SlayerXP | pdr: errm, that's nice. |
| 15:19.35 | evangineer | Leeds, http://ubcd.sourceforge.net/ |
| 15:19.54 | pdr | SlayerXP: is that not near st dunstan's hill? |
| 15:20.27 | SlayerXP | pdr: that address is very close to london bridge, about 10 minutes walk from monument |
| 15:21.28 | Leeds | because last time I wanted rescue, not diagnostic |
| 15:21.33 | evangineer | ah |
| 15:21.41 | evangineer | that's all right then |
| 15:21.46 | evangineer | ;-) |
| 15:22.36 | Leeds | this time I specifically want to run the one maxtor tool |
| 15:25.15 | Leeds | if there were a sane way to extract the boot floppy from the windows installer, I'd just do that :-) |
| 15:25.50 | pdr | SlayerXP: ok then, sorry for the irrelevance. st dunstan's (in the west) is on fleet street near chancery lane/ludgate circus, opposite hoare's bank. |
| 15:26.19 | SlayerXP | np |
| 15:26.46 | Leeds | pdr: and the important question... who was st. dunstan? :-) |
| 15:28.29 | pdr | he was archbishop here in the dark ages sometime |
| 15:29.39 | pdr | there's a statue of him at the church, as well as famous statues of king lud and his sons (the one who threw gog and magog into the sea) and of queen victoria that used to be at ludgate arch before being demolished |
| 15:32.23 | *** join/#gllug ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 15:32.23 | *** topic/#gllug is Greater London LUG. Next meeting: TBA, Web site: http://www.gllug.org.uk; Wiki: http://wiki.gllug.org.uk; Channel stats at http://www.jonmasters.org/irc/gllug |
| 15:32.29 | Leeds | evangineer: anyway, thanks |
| 15:33.21 | pdr | it doesn't install ntp out of the box |
| 15:35.31 | pdr | tet's insistance on using RedHat here does annoy me a little actually, but then i understand the point behind using a vendor-supported system for mission-critical stuff |
| 15:36.15 | SlayerXP | you have someone who'll guarantee to have sympathy when it goes mammaries skywards |
| 15:36.57 | evangineer | lol! |
| 15:37.39 | evangineer | you do have quite a way of phrasing things, SlayerXP |
| 15:37.53 | SlayerXP | I failed GSCE English, you know. |
| 15:38.18 | pdr | how did you manage that? |
| 15:38.39 | SlayerXP | i'm left handed, all assignments had to be hand written with a fountain pen |
| 15:39.34 | pdr | you're joking? |
| 15:39.35 | JAV | http://sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/ |
| 15:39.37 | SlayerXP | no |
| 15:40.00 | pdr | in what year was this may i ask? |
| 15:40.11 | SlayerXP | that combined with my poor handwriting meant they were mainly illegible |
| 15:40.19 | evangineer | no ball points allowed! that's like having a european computing driver's license that certifies your ability to operate Microsoft Office. |
| 15:40.27 | SlayerXP | umm, i've jsut turned 31, work it out yourself |
| 15:40.39 | Leeds | SlayerXP: you're old |
| 15:41.05 | SlayerXP | i tried submitting my assignments electronically, but my english teacher didn't know how to use a computer |
| 15:41.16 | SlayerXP | *word in a BBC Micro |
| 15:41.18 | SlayerXP | on a |
| 15:44.21 | wethrin | 'lo |
| 15:44.40 | rhowe | Germany goes crazy for little green women - http://tinyurl.com/66o63 |
| 15:45.00 | evangineer | can someone mention nazis so that Godwin's law can be invoked and the Sluggishness and Confusion thread be brought to conclusion. |
| 15:45.24 | evangineer | s/conclusion/a &/ |
| 16:29.43 | evangineer | damerell is talking rot, has he never used apt-cache search or aptitude search? He could even try packages.debian.org or apt-get.org, if he prefers a browser. |
| 16:30.09 | wethrin | Damerell is a troll |
| 16:30.48 | pdr | he is pure evil |
| 16:30.53 | wethrin | Yes |
| 16:31.26 | irvined__ | heh. |
| 16:31.30 | SlayerXP | on another channel, we're doing honesty in valentine cards |
| 16:31.34 | SlayerXP | care to join in? |
| 16:31.42 | pdr | no |
| 16:31.44 | pdr | thanks |
| 16:31.45 | wethrin | Honesty? In cards? Hah |
| 16:31.50 | irvined__ | damerell is the main reason i dont read gllug any more. |
| 16:32.09 | wethrin | Jonathan Harker, too |
| 16:32.14 | irvined__ | well one of them anywayl. |
| 16:32.18 | wethrin | Yeah |
| 16:32.23 | SlayerXP | i've managed a few, utterly un-PC, please /ignore if offended :) |
| 16:32.23 | wethrin | Although the other hasn't popped up either |
| 16:32.26 | pdr | i love the trolling that goes on. i don't post any more tho |
| 16:32.46 | SlayerXP | "roses are red, violets are blue, suck my cock, you slag, and swallow my man-fat too" |
| 16:33.02 | wethrin | That seems good for a card |
| 16:33.06 | SlayerXP | "roses are red, violets are blue, this rock was found in the ground, care to get it on?" |
| 16:33.27 | SlayerXP | "roses are red, violets are blue, if you think I find you attractive, it's just your gravitational pull" |
| 16:33.36 | SlayerXP | you get the idea :) |
| 16:33.44 | wethrin | Yup |
| 16:33.49 | wethrin | Submit them to Clinton's |
| 16:34.15 | SlayerXP | "roses are red, violets are blue, I love you darling, may I go for the brown?" |
| 16:35.37 | *** join/#gllug ibot (ibot@apt.bot.TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 16:35.37 | *** topic/#gllug is Greater London LUG. Next meeting: TBA, Web site: http://www.gllug.org.uk; Wiki: http://wiki.gllug.org.uk; Channel stats at http://www.jonmasters.org/irc/gllug |
| 16:35.40 | pdr | roses are red, violets are blue, they smell real nice and they taste good too |
| 16:37.33 | George | mm, rfc3092 is interesting |
| 16:37.47 | wethrin | rfcs in interesting shocker? |
| 16:37.49 | [Jango] | i'm sure it is |
| 16:38.14 | George | it is :) |
| 16:38.21 | George | "Etymology of "Foo"" |
| 16:38.32 | Leeds | George: that's strange - I found and read that yesterday! |
| 16:38.38 | George | Leeds: hrmm? |
| 16:38.46 | George | Leeds: sarcasm? |
| 16:39.05 | Leeds | no, just a strange co-incidence that you've pointed it out |
| 16:39.10 | George | lol |
| 16:39.16 | Leeds | unless I pointed it out earlier and forgot it... |
| 16:39.21 | George | mp |
| 16:39.22 | George | no |
| 16:39.24 | George | I just found it on google |
| 16:39.31 | Leeds | googling for foo? |
| 16:39.36 | George | yeah |
| 16:39.41 | Leeds | same here :-) |
| 16:39.43 | George | hehe |
| 16:40.18 | Leeds | I would say great minds think alike, but it doesn't really apply |
| 16:40.22 | George | I like RFCs :) |
| 16:40.32 | George | Leeds: yeah, my mind is far superior to yours |
| 16:40.48 | Leeds | so, any friends of yours going to be at Linuxworld? |
| 16:40.49 | SlayerXP | hey george, we were talking about you earlier |
| 16:40.56 | George | dunno |
| 16:41.01 | George | boston? |
| 16:41.03 | wethrin | Leeds: Friends? :) |
| 16:41.17 | Leeds | yeah, boston |
| 16:41.24 | George | ben meyer might be there I think |
| 16:41.27 | Leeds | wethrin: well, he told me to look for his friends last time :-) |
| 16:41.29 | George | although I don't really know him |
| 16:41.43 | George | jason katz brown might be as he's at MIT, but again I don't know him :) |
| 16:41.54 | wethrin | Leeds: s/friends/friend/ ? :-) |
| 16:42.00 | Leeds | wethrin: yeah |
| 16:42.36 | wethrin | heh |
| 16:42.58 | George | you people are so rude to me |
| 16:43.59 | SlayerXP | you've earned it |
| 16:44.05 | SlayerXP | no small achievement on your part |
| 16:44.07 | SlayerXP | tireless work |
| 16:44.43 | SlayerXP | peter childs has been sprouting utter bollocks all afternoon and he doesn't get anything like the treatment you do |
| 16:44.59 | wethrin | He would do on IRC |
| 16:45.42 | Leeds | wethrin: nah, to be fair, George is somewhat entertaining, not just tiresome |
| 16:45.57 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:46.04 | wethrin | true |
| 16:49.00 | SlayerXP | "There is a problem with finding useful but unknown packages in |
| 16:49.00 | SlayerXP | Debian. |
| 16:49.00 | SlayerXP | " |
| 16:49.05 | SlayerXP | which drugs is he on? |
| 16:49.17 | Leeds | sounded remarkable sane to me |
| 16:49.31 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 16:51.04 | [Jango] | is he unable to use whatever package searcher debian ships? |
| 16:51.16 | SlayerXP | [Jango]: he's unable to string a sensible argument together |
| 16:51.18 | SlayerXP | see my next post. |
| 16:51.47 | SlayerXP | post 1: "Normally, yes, I end up grepping /var/lib/dpkg/available." |
| 16:52.10 | SlayerXP | post 2: "I think you may assume that I know how to use grep." |
| 16:52.24 | Leeds | SlayerXP: I understand his point |
| 16:53.23 | SlayerXP | umm, he's recently bought some sub-bridge real estate? |
| 16:55.53 | pdr | SlayerXP: where are you from? here they don't call it "real estate" |
| 16:56.01 | pdr | or do they? |
| 16:56.08 | SlayerXP | i'm in england |
| 16:56.18 | SlayerXP | just north west of an island called Europe |
| 16:56.27 | Leeds | nope, we don't normally call it real estate here |
| 16:56.29 | pdr | ah, yeah, i've heard of the place |
| 16:56.38 | Leeds | although, I suppose, technically, it is |
| 16:57.33 | pdr | we have "estate agents" here rather than "real estate agents", a term that gets scoffed at these days |
| 16:58.01 | Leeds | the question is, is land still all royal? |
| 16:58.56 | pdr | eh? i guess not. i'm a free-holder for one. :-) |
| 16:59.06 | pdr | is that where the "real" comes from? |
| 16:59.33 | Leeds | I believe that's where it comes from, yes |
| 16:59.42 | Leeds | what is mozrat doing? |
| 16:59.54 | mozrat | Leeds. Blame Prince Charles |
| 17:00.13 | Leeds | no, I quite like him |
| 17:00.35 | mozrat | we've just throttled back www.royal.gov.uk to 3Mbps rather than the 10Mbps it was previously consuming |
| 17:00.37 | pdr | Leeds: not sure that's true.. will do some research |
| 17:00.56 | Leeds | he's a bit of a nutter, but there's nothing wrong with that, and it's traditional for royals to marry their horses, isn't it? |
| 17:01.10 | mozrat | apparently his decision to get married has sparked some interest in his site |
| 17:01.14 | Leeds | mozrat: ah, you're royal.gov.uk? that makes sense... :-) |
| 17:01.26 | mozrat | I'm sat behind the same pipe yes |
| 17:09.31 | mozrat | I wish people would consider bandwidth usage before announcing marriages |
| 17:09.56 | pdr | is he getting married? to whom? |
| 17:10.14 | Leeds | pdr: his horse, Camilla |
| 17:10.17 | mozrat | Camilla Parker-Bowels apparently |
| 17:11.40 | pdr | who's she when she's at home? |
| 17:12.04 | mozrat | only the future queen of England, thats who |
| 17:12.24 | Leeds | mozrat: nope |
| 17:12.37 | Leeds | she's just the future wife of the future king - apparently she won't be queen |
| 17:12.49 | mozrat | cos she is divorced? |
| 17:13.06 | Leeds | yes, probably |
| 17:13.15 | mozrat | bah |
| 17:13.20 | mozrat | thats a big naff |
| 17:13.23 | Leeds | yes |
| 17:13.47 | Leeds | although, to be fair, she was part of the reason his first marriage failed, which makes it a little less neat and tidy |
| 17:15.55 | mozrat | true, but IMHO... bygones |
| 17:16.51 | Leeds | oh, of course... |
| 17:17.14 | pdr | Leeds: Diana died because of this woman? |
| 17:17.28 | Leeds | anyway, if there's a King, Queen becomes an entirely honorary position - even the very very limited position of the monarch doesn't apply |
| 17:17.39 | SlayerXP | i think the high speed impact may be more to blame |
| 17:17.45 | Leeds | pdr: no - they divorced before she died, and Camilla was part of the reason for the break-up of the marriage |
| 17:20.21 | pdr | the thing i don't get is, why doesn't the queen retire herself as queen and hand over the crown |
| 17:20.40 | pdr | charlie couldn't be much worse |
| 17:21.04 | pdr | to be fair, she is a pretty good queen, but she's had her turn |
| 17:21.07 | wethrin | Worse? |
| 17:21.11 | wethrin | She's not doing anything bad |
| 17:21.20 | Leeds | it was glued onto her head 15 years ago, and the won't be able to get it off without beheading her which, while a traditional way to remove a monarch, could be painful |
| 17:21.26 | wethrin | :) |
| 17:21.53 | mozrat | Leeds, and not really done so much these days |
| 17:22.11 | pdr | lol |
| 17:22.18 | Leeds | pdr: because it's her position by right - I wouldn't object to her stepping down in favour of Charlie, but frankly it wouldn't make much of a difference to anything |
| 17:24.17 | evangineer | thank god for the monarchy, otherwise we'd have to put up with President Blair! |
| 17:24.30 | Leeds | very true |
| 17:24.52 | Leeds | they do do a good job of being non-political figureheads |
| 17:25.45 | pdr | yep, true true |
| 17:26.15 | Leeds | http://eatdrink.timeout.com/search2/view/5893.html |
| 17:28.11 | SlayerXP | http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/noises.php |
| 18:24.16 | mozrat | http://beerandspeech.org/images/050210/hollowmen.wmv << 3.2Mb, work safe blah blah |
| 18:25.32 | mozrat | morning Cope |
| 18:29.51 | Cope | umm... no, bicycles cannot do that. |
| 18:30.02 | Cope | that doesn't invalidate my point that cars are evil. |
| 18:30.49 | Cope | round 2 - manchester united are shit at football. |
| 18:31.35 | Cope | um... no - they're actually rather good. Not as good as Chelsea at the moment, and you may support Chelsea, but just preferring Chelsea doesn't actually make Manchester United shit. |
| 18:32.26 | Cope | That's not the point - everyone knows Manchester United are shit - I don't have to defend it, or advance any evidence to support my assertion. I will; just repeat it in the hope that it strengthens my case. |
| 18:33.54 | SlayerXP | just think of manchester united as being redhat |
| 18:34.02 | SlayerXP | they even share the same colours |
| 18:34.10 | Cope | 2nd best? |
| 18:34.22 | Cope | still very good, but just not the best? |
| 18:34.41 | *** join/#gllug xander (~xander@3ffe:4005:100b:1:207:e9ff:fe11:e9be) |
| 18:34.54 | SlayerXP | and xander has that problem too |
| 18:34.59 | Cope | ah! someone who doesn't think redhat is shit! Hoorah! |
| 18:34.59 | SlayerXP | damn lag |
| 18:36.11 | SlayerXP | redhat isn't shit |
| 18:36.19 | Cope | hi xander |
| 18:36.24 | SlayerXP | it's a fine example of a distro that was relevant 5 years ago |
| 18:36.25 | xander | hello :-) |
| 18:36.37 | Cope | no - just I've been defending the redhat corner on the list against its haters. |
| 18:37.25 | SlayerXP | i have notice Herr Damerell's lack of response to my email |
| 18:37.29 | SlayerXP | noticed |
| 18:37.35 | xander | Hey gripe at the marketing people sure - the techies are very passionate about the stuff they build |
| 18:38.29 | SlayerXP | "I end up resorting to using grep" "grep's hardly difficult to use" "you assume I know how to use it." "errr, yes" |
| 18:39.02 | xander | The other thing to note is that there are a number of vacancies in key jobs (e.g. kernel) that are very hard to fill. |
| 18:39.14 | Cope | xander: ah, but /etc/sysconfig is 'a mess' and 'highly perverse' and 'undocumented' and 'inflexible' and 'badly designed' |
| 18:39.51 | SlayerXP | well said |
| 18:40.31 | xander | It is also wrong to take the Alan Cox view of "read the source" |
| 18:40.58 | xander | People do not have the time to read the source for everything they need/want to do |
| 18:41.12 | SlayerXP | no |
| 18:41.17 | Cope | agreed |
| 18:41.18 | SlayerXP | hence we have debian |
| 18:41.30 | Cope | hoorah |
| 18:41.37 | xander | I have been setting up some more ipv6 networks and it is very hard to find the correct config options. |
| 18:41.50 | SlayerXP | apt-get install freenet6 |
| 18:42.04 | SlayerXP | you knew I was going to say that, right? :) |
| 18:42.27 | xander | Okay - that might install it - however it does not automatically set up your subnet routing ot radvd. |
| 18:42.41 | SlayerXP | it does sort out your basic routing |
| 18:43.05 | xander | FC3 does that by default as does RHEL4 |
| 18:43.48 | xander | Not that I really want to head down this emacs/vi path |
| 18:44.01 | SlayerXP | no, I'd win |
| 18:44.02 | SlayerXP | :) |
| 18:44.07 | xander | LMAO.... |
| 18:44.32 | xander | I do not think there is a win/lose position hence why both distros are very popular |
| 18:46.02 | SlayerXP | anyway, my debian zealotry is complete for the day |
| 18:46.16 | SlayerXP | all in all I think I'm up against the peasantry |
| 18:46.19 | Cope | well done, good and faithful servant. |
| 18:47.29 | SlayerXP | please file all objections with your local gentoo zealot |
| 18:48.25 | mozrat | ibot lart people who print to IP addresses not hostnames |
| 18:48.55 | mozrat | why oh why print to an IP address when you could just enter a DNS name that I can change in ONE FSCKING PLACE |
| 18:48.58 | SlayerXP | i can think of one case where that's excusable |
| 18:49.13 | SlayerXP | i.e. the admin doesn't have A<>PTR in place |
| 18:49.23 | mozrat | Not in Newport Pagnell at 1850 on a Thursday night |
| 18:49.32 | SlayerXP | 1849 here |
| 18:49.44 | mozrat | like I said I'm in Newport Pagnell |
| 18:49.58 | mozrat | at* |
| 18:49.59 | SlayerXP | it's +00:01 ? |
| 18:50.01 | mozrat | oh! |
| 18:50.12 | SlayerXP | _now_ it's 1850 |
| 18:50.13 | mozrat | SlayerXP: apparently! |
| 18:50.46 | xander | tut tut I always thought Debian was a little behind everyone else. |
| 18:50.51 | xander | :-) |
| 18:51.02 | SlayerXP | anyway |
| 18:51.07 | SlayerXP | couch tatty time |
| 18:51.08 | mozrat | looking at Newport Pagnell it's about 15 years behind |
| 18:51.10 | SlayerXP | later |
| 18:53.18 | mozrat | where do you work xander ?? |
| 18:54.05 | xander | I work for Red Hat in Professional Services - currently assigned to a merchant bank in the Barbican |
| 18:54.16 | mozrat | nice |
| 18:54.59 | xander | It is good to get out - and I am just about to finish a three month contract (to be free again ;-) |
| 18:55.18 | xander | contract with the bank that is |
| 18:55.30 | mozrat | how many red hat guys are there? just 1? |
| 18:55.45 | xander | Three at the bank where I work. |
| 18:56.12 | xander | More elsewhere. :-) |
| 18:57.08 | mozrat | yeah, I hoped there was more than one worldwide :) |
| 18:57.09 | xander | mozrat - where are you working at present |
| 18:57.44 | mozrat | I work for a large advertising group in a IT company that does support/projects for ad agencies in said group |
| 18:57.57 | mozrat | also known as mac city |
| 18:58.13 | xander | Is it fun? |
| 18:59.32 | mozrat | yeah it is.... change control isn't too tight so we get to roll stuff out quite quick |
| 18:59.49 | mozrat | and the budgets are normally quite good for kit |
| 19:00.49 | xander | I did a couple of days where change control did not exist at all. They were having memory problems. I would turn my back and one of the tech would have compiled a new kernel and pushed it up to a production box. |
| 19:01.06 | evangineer | ouch! |
| 19:02.13 | xander | They upgraded their machines prior to Christmas to handle the rush and that caused the problems. 16G of RAM and they started running out of low mem. |
| 19:02.29 | xander | The funny thing is they only needed 400Mb on each box. |
| 19:02.51 | xander | evangineer: sounds like the bank where I am currently stationed |
| 19:03.29 | evangineer | yes, I was at a brokerage firm down near st paul's when I was working under those conditions |
| 19:04.02 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:04.02 | xander | Yes - you know there that a small error can very *very* costly |
| 19:06.11 | evangineer | mostly looking after the database side, Sybase Transact-SQL stored procedures. It was a solaris environment |
| 19:07.13 | evangineer | doing loads of queries and reports, quite a bit of korn shell scripting running from cronjobs |
| 19:08.04 | evangineer | that aspect was fun |
| 19:08.07 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:08.42 | mozrat_ | colloquy on OS X is a steaming pile of crap |
| 19:08.55 | mozrat_ | someone just /msg'd me and it crashed |
| 19:08.57 | mozrat_ | no idea who |
| 19:09.17 | evangineer | mozrat: why aren't you using xchat aqua? |
| 19:09.28 | xander | evangineer: have you had a look at HSBC in the city - I know they were recruiting over the last few weeks. |
| 19:09.47 | xander | is OS X a steaming pile? |
| 19:09.48 | mozrat_ | evangineer: I should do |
| 19:10.00 | mozrat_ | OS X is okish |
| 19:11.00 | Leeds | I use xchat X on OS X |
| 19:11.06 | Leeds | (too many Xs) |
| 19:11.40 | xander | I use konversation - I love the way that it overlays the desktop - so you can read messages and work ;-) |
| 19:11.57 | evangineer | xander: I'm checking now |
| 19:12.13 | evangineer | HSBC that is. |
| 19:12.51 | xander | evangineer: they were contract positions - but paid well enough that I know a couple of the IBM guys there quite IBM to become HSBC contractors |
| 19:13.02 | xander | s/quite/quit/ |
| 19:14.27 | mozrat_ | anyone ever land at the old Hong Kong airport? I've just been mailed some amazingly pictures of jumbos landing sidewards... landing on buildings on the approach and landing wing first on the runway |
| 19:14.40 | mozrat_ | s/amazingly/amazing |
| 19:15.07 | evangineer | post them on your blog or on flickr! |
| 19:18.03 | mozrat_ | evangineer: I will later, want a copy by mail? |
| 19:18.29 | *** join/#gllug Zander (~xander@3ffe:4005:100b:1:207:e9ff:fe11:e9be) |
| 19:22.32 | evangineer | mozrat_, no just let us know when you post them so that your site can be #glluged! ;-) |
| 19:22.55 | mozrat_ | :) |
| 19:24.51 | *** join/#gllug harkness (~xander@3ffe:4005:100b:1:207:e9ff:fe11:e9be) |
| 19:25.44 | mozrat_ | I've already been Charlied today, i don't think I can stand getting glluged as well |
| 19:25.47 | mozrat_ | http://beerandspeech.org/images/050210/ |
| 19:25.52 | mozrat_ | read the readme first before the piccies |
| 19:26.00 | mozrat_ | the wmv file isn't relevant to the hong kong thing |
| 19:49.22 | evangineer | mozrat_, heh, if you hadn't read the readme, you'd have been forced to conclude the pilots were blind drunk! |
| 19:55.04 | *** join/#gllug BobtheAvenger (Bob@host213-122-155-99.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 19:57.19 | mozrat_ | yes |
| 19:57.40 | BobtheAvenger | hey all? |
| 19:57.56 | mozrat_ | hey! |
| 19:58.04 | BobtheAvenger | how are you? |
| 19:58.21 | mozrat_ | good thanks |
| 19:58.27 | BobtheAvenger | good good |
| 19:58.31 | mozrat_ | wearing a silly hat at the moment, which always helps my mood |
| 19:58.37 | BobtheAvenger | heh |
| 19:58.52 | mozrat_ | Always amazed at the amount of silly items to be found in other peoples serverrooms |
| 19:59.02 | BobtheAvenger | heh |
| 19:59.24 | mozrat_ | evangineer: did you watch the funny wmv file? |
| 20:01.31 | BobtheAvenger | is Leeds about? |
| 20:01.46 | Leeds | nope |
| 20:01.49 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 20:01.54 | BobtheAvenger | i'll try later |
| 20:01.57 | Leeds | or yes... |
| 20:02.02 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 20:02.04 | BobtheAvenger | hey |
| 20:02.21 | BobtheAvenger | can i ask you a C question |
| 20:02.22 | BobtheAvenger | ? |
| 20:02.44 | Leeds | you can ask - you can ask everyone... |
| 20:03.08 | BobtheAvenger | how do you get the address on a pointer? |
| 20:04.49 | BobtheAvenger | *of a |
| 20:04.57 | Leeds | a pointer *is* an address... |
| 20:05.36 | BobtheAvenger | no but now do u get like : 0x1000000c |
| 20:05.57 | Leeds | that's just an ASCII hex representation of an address |
| 20:06.09 | Leeds | so, um, printf? |
| 20:06.37 | BobtheAvenger | what if you want to use it in some code |
| 20:07.36 | BobtheAvenger | like in some math stuff |
| 20:07.49 | Cope | hello BobtheAvenger |
| 20:08.01 | BobtheAvenger | hey cope |
| 20:08.18 | evangineer | mozrat_, no and I'm actually doing some work atm. |
| 20:08.45 | Leeds | I don't understand your question... a pointer is just a number, which is the address |
| 20:08.55 | BobtheAvenger | yes |
| 20:08.56 | Cope | hands up those who thing that: "trying a tool and seeing what it does to a file" is stabbing-in-the-dark admin, over against reading the docs first to understand what needs to be done. |
| 20:09.17 | BobtheAvenger | but what if i want to get the address to be used in a function |
| 20:09.54 | Cope | you want to pass the address to a function? |
| 20:10.01 | Leeds | BobtheAvenger: give me some pseudo-code |
| 20:10.08 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 20:10.14 | BobtheAvenger | *a; |
| 20:10.28 | BobtheAvenger | int * a; // even |
| 20:11.19 | BobtheAvenger | int addressOfA &= addressOfB; |
| 20:11.31 | Leeds | (ugh) |
| 20:11.37 | BobtheAvenger | kinda thing |
| 20:11.52 | Leeds | keep going |
| 20:11.59 | Leeds | and I did say pseudo-code |
| 20:12.16 | BobtheAvenger | thats not it jus some code deponstrating it mor or less |
| 20:12.50 | BobtheAvenger | it demonstrates wot i mean |
| 20:12.57 | *** join/#gllug SlayerXP (~Mart@burningchrome.demon.co.uk) |
| 20:13.11 | BobtheAvenger | i got to go eat |
| 20:13.14 | Cope | aha, SlayerXP, I've been expecting you. |
| 20:13.14 | BobtheAvenger | peace |
| 20:13.25 | SlayerXP | ? |
| 20:13.33 | Leeds | Cope: do you know what bob was talking about? |
| 20:13.59 | Cope | Leeds: no; i can't think of why one would want to pass a pointer to a function to be used in a variable. |
| 20:14.14 | SlayerXP | i can |
| 20:14.17 | Cope | ah! |
| 20:14.23 | Cope | shed light! |
| 20:14.26 | SlayerXP | okay, i can't, I just wanted to be contrary |
| 20:14.26 | Leeds | I'm not sure if he was just trying to say "pointer to a pointer" |
| 20:14.37 | Cope | oh maybe. |
| 20:15.58 | Cope | SlayerXP: do you think that trying a tool and looking what it did to the config file is stabbing in the dark? Compared to, say, reading documentation that explains how to do the task, and then doing it? - just assessing if I am losing the plot. |
| 20:16.19 | Cope | its entirely possible I have lost all sense of reason. |
| 20:17.50 | Leeds | Cope: of course you wibble haven't! |
| 20:18.27 | Leeds | heh |
| 20:19.03 | SlayerXP | ummm |
| 20:19.07 | SlayerXP | depends |
| 20:19.32 | SlayerXP | trying to reconfigure something you don't understand is brave |
| 20:20.02 | SlayerXP | some changes are trivial and can be assumed to be portable |
| 20:20.18 | SlayerXP | i.e. changing bind=eth0 to bind=eth1 |
| 20:20.24 | Cope | sure |
| 20:20.46 | SlayerXP | counter example |
| 20:20.56 | SlayerXP | http://www.openfiler.org/ |
| 20:21.36 | SlayerXP | person has succesffully installed that, and is therefore qualified to install a heterogenous file server |
| 20:22.06 | SlayerXP | "i can do this, I used to just click on _that_ then _this_" |
| 20:23.13 | SlayerXP | doing and understanding are utterly different things |
| 20:23.47 | SlayerXP | there's usually an "obvious" factor involved, but that should not be assumed |
| 20:24.33 | *** join/#gllug irm (~chatzilla@82-43-93-71.cable.ubr08.croy.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 20:25.36 | SlayerXP | whereas an experienced sysadmin would say, yes, I _could_ configure a debian machine to do all that, but just installing openfiler would be quicker and easier |
| 20:25.43 | *** join/#gllug mozrat (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 20:25.47 | SlayerXP | dinner& |
| 20:25.57 | Cope | mmm food |
| 20:26.12 | Cope | hello mozrat |
| 20:26.37 | mozrat | hello Mr Cope |
| 20:27.04 | mozrat | Hows the clan? |
| 20:27.27 | *** join/#gllug rdancer (~r--t@rdancer.user) |
| 20:29.18 | Cope | asleep :-) |
| 20:30.06 | mozrat | :) |
| 20:39.20 | rdancer | hi |
| 20:40.08 | *** join/#gllug BobtheAvenger (Bob@dial81-131-123-217.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 20:40.12 | BobtheAvenger | hey all |
| 20:44.29 | Cope | hi rdancer :-) |
| 20:44.32 | Cope | lo bob |
| 20:45.09 | BobtheAvenger | hey cope |
| 20:46.01 | BobtheAvenger | how are you? |
| 20:49.36 | Cope | good thanks |
| 20:49.43 | BobtheAvenger | good good |
| 20:49.46 | Cope | few days holiday now |
| 20:50.01 | BobtheAvenger | i still got to get through tomoro |
| 20:50.34 | BobtheAvenger | i wish i had neeter hand writing |
| 20:50.53 | BobtheAvenger | *neater |
| 20:51.12 | Cope | my handwriting was always rubbish - I got there in the end |
| 20:51.21 | BobtheAvenger | i miss read some of my working in maths |
| 20:51.59 | BobtheAvenger | and i got 3 answers for a cubic equation instead of 1 |
| 20:53.03 | Cope | :) |
| 20:53.10 | BobtheAvenger | even better is that the cubic line didnt even pass through those points at all |
| 20:53.21 | Cope | nice |
| 20:53.30 | BobtheAvenger | its impressive really |
| 20:54.06 | BobtheAvenger | i miss took something for x^3 + x - 10x |
| 20:54.58 | BobtheAvenger | so i took x out as a factor and did the difference of 2 squares thing |
| 20:56.23 | BobtheAvenger | anyway, less of my stupidity |
| 20:59.05 | BobtheAvenger | what did you do today? |
| 21:02.13 | Cope | wrote an incident report into why a vpn failed; wasted a lot of time arguing on the mailing list, slept. |
| 21:02.32 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 21:02.33 | SlayerXP | your arguments weren't wasted |
| 21:02.50 | SlayerXP | 'wrong' and 'wasted' are not the same thing |
| 21:04.13 | SlayerXP | your arguments were eloquent and well represented |
| 21:04.21 | BobtheAvenger | jus wrong? |
| 21:04.34 | SlayerXP | i was impressed by your use of simile and rhetoric |
| 21:04.37 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:04.48 | BobtheAvenger | but it was still wrong? |
| 21:04.56 | SlayerXP | you showed passion and knowledge for the subject matter |
| 21:05.08 | BobtheAvenger | ^^^^ |
| 21:05.28 | SlayerXP | you presnted alternative views and deeply reasoned arguments for your views |
| 21:05.46 | BobtheAvenger | this is starting to sound like an english lesson |
| 21:06.05 | evangineer | (guess who's doing his gracious in victory bit) |
| 21:06.22 | BobtheAvenger | who? |
| 21:06.27 | SlayerXP | you avoided childish retorts, and stuck to the point as a true open source entrepranuer would |
| 21:06.46 | evangineer | BobtheAvenger, SlayerXP obviously! ;-) |
| 21:06.56 | SlayerXP | your forthright voice is an inspiration to us all |
| 21:06.56 | BobtheAvenger | please use shorter workds |
| 21:07.01 | BobtheAvenger | *words |
| 21:07.11 | Cope | BobtheAvenger: please learn longer ones |
| 21:07.28 | BobtheAvenger | if i could i would |
| 21:07.29 | SlayerXP | I bow to your skills an a free software representative |
| 21:07.36 | SlayerXP | as a |
| 21:07.52 | SlayerXP | next on your things to do list: being right |
| 21:07.55 | evangineer | BobtheAvenger, loquacity is a most desirable trait on this channel |
| 21:08.10 | BobtheAvenger | antidisestablishmentarianism |
| 21:08.31 | BobtheAvenger | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ long word |
| 21:08.45 | evangineer | BobtheAvenger, try a sentence next time |
| 21:08.47 | SlayerXP | cool |
| 21:08.56 | SlayerXP | she's _still_ fit |
| 21:09.18 | SlayerXP | & |
| 21:09.32 | BobtheAvenger | there is no word that convayes my hate of poetry lessons |
| 21:10.04 | evangineer | ;-) |
| 21:10.23 | evangineer | tch, fiancee |
| 21:10.25 | BobtheAvenger | ??? |
| 21:10.49 | evangineer | ibot SlayerXP |
| 21:10.50 | ibot | extra, extra, read all about it, slayerxp is a dogmatic zealot, or a debhead and proud of it no doubt! |
| 21:11.18 | BobtheAvenger | ibot Bobtheavenger |
| 21:11.19 | ibot | i guess bobtheavenger is new around these parts, or really Bruce |
| 21:11.19 | Cope | SlayerXP is a fine fellow. |
| 21:11.38 | BobtheAvenger | ?????..... |
| 21:11.41 | *** join/#gllug mozrat__ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:11.43 | Cope | ibot cope |
| 21:11.44 | ibot | it has been said that cope is the father of William, a geek in the making, or a big breadbox filled with crumbs of loveable humour, not coping, chuckling like a maniac or rabid, or "watch[ing] the teenagers wave their under-developed willies in the air.", or probably drinking special brew |
| 21:12.04 | BobtheAvenger | heh |
| 21:12.24 | BobtheAvenger | bruce? |
| 21:12.37 | Cope | ibot cope is also but now tee-total. |
| 21:12.38 | ibot | Cope: okay |
| 21:12.41 | Cope | ibot cope |
| 21:12.42 | ibot | rumour has it, cope is the father of William, a geek in the making, or a big breadbox filled with crumbs of loveable humour, not coping, chuckling like a maniac or rabid, or "watch[ing] the teenagers wave their under-developed willies in the air.", or probably drinking special brew, or but now tee-total. |
| 21:12.58 | *** join/#gllug mozrat__ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:13.03 | Cope | cor |
| 21:13.08 | Cope | an invasion of mozrats |
| 21:13.14 | BobtheAvenger | bruce? |
| 21:13.38 | mozrat__ | grrr to Netopia routers |
| 21:13.46 | Leeds | bruce isn't here, man |
| 21:13.53 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 21:13.54 | Cope | bruce is wrong |
| 21:14.05 | BobtheAvenger | then tell him |
| 21:14.14 | Cope | actually bruce is right in many ways. |
| 21:14.28 | Cope | bruce is an interesting man. |
| 21:14.37 | BobtheAvenger | interessting duallity |
| 21:15.01 | BobtheAvenger | a ha long words in sentence |
| 21:15.28 | BobtheAvenger | :) |
| 21:15.43 | Cope | BobtheAvenger: imagine a tory mp who defected to the labour party.... takes digs at the tories whenever possible. |
| 21:16.01 | BobtheAvenger | erm |
| 21:16.18 | Cope | no that was lamont and major in september 1992 |
| 21:16.31 | Leeds | yes, we've been out of the erm for ages |
| 21:17.15 | BobtheAvenger | stupid physic homework |
| 21:17.25 | Cope | see, the trouble with a bigger house is that its much further from the study to the kettle |
| 21:17.31 | Cope | physics! mmm!! |
| 21:17.41 | BobtheAvenger | heh |
| 21:18.04 | BobtheAvenger | no i can do it |
| 21:18.11 | Cope | :) |
| 21:18.12 | BobtheAvenger | jus i lent my m8 my book |
| 21:18.17 | BobtheAvenger | *mate |
| 21:18.28 | BobtheAvenger | and i aint done the sheet on inertia yet |
| 21:18.38 | Cope | you have inertia? |
| 21:18.52 | BobtheAvenger | not as much as a car |
| 21:19.23 | BobtheAvenger | but more than a chair |
| 21:20.01 | BobtheAvenger | stupid newtons laws |
| 21:20.42 | BobtheAvenger | jus because i understand them so far doesnt mean i wont to do a workshete on it |
| 21:21.52 | BobtheAvenger | jus because you've done this all before |
| 21:22.03 | Eeyore | anyone here know about redhat innit scripts i'm still having some issues |
| 21:22.05 | Cope | what - been a student |
| 21:22.15 | Cope | Eeyore: still? |
| 21:22.21 | BobtheAvenger | learnt this |
| 21:22.51 | Cope | Eeyore: we all know that redhat is a mess and that you should use debian. |
| 21:22.53 | Eeyore | like, i was on here last night and someone said u need magic comments in the innit scripts, i did that. and they are marked to start at runlevel 5, but they urrm don't |
| 21:22.56 | BobtheAvenger | i'm bored of givin out answers |
| 21:23.17 | Cope | Eeyore: seriously - what are you trying to do? |
| 21:23.42 | Eeyore | well take this service for example: |
| 21:23.51 | Eeyore | chkconfig --list |grep named |
| 21:23.51 | Eeyore | named 0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:on 5:on 6:off |
| 21:23.59 | Eeyore | it doesn't start on boot. why? |
| 21:24.24 | *** join/#gllug mozrat_ (~mozrat@eidu.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 21:24.36 | Eeyore | i have about 8 other services that are suppose to start including imapd, popd, postgresql, zope, etc, |
| 21:25.06 | Eeyore | the only thing they all have in common is that i was resposnsible for executing the chkconfig command :) |
| 21:26.17 | Cope | Eeyore: runlevel 4 isn't used; read the comments in /etc/inittab |
| 21:26.17 | Eeyore | boot log says: |
| 21:26.22 | Eeyore | Feb 10 03:04:50 ming named: succeeded |
| 21:26.43 | Eeyore | right, so I should not put anything in runlevel 4? |
| 21:26.47 | Cope | no need |
| 21:26.50 | Cope | hang on a sec |
| 21:27.04 | Cope | let me get a drink and move to my desk, and give you some attention. |
| 21:27.39 | Eeyore | Sigh, i had this all working on redhat 7.3 before my box got cracked. |
| 21:27.47 | Eeyore | this is FC3 BTW |
| 21:28.41 | Cope | ok |
| 21:29.07 | Cope | well, notwithstanding the fact that I wouldn't run a server on fc anything... |
| 21:29.11 | Eeyore | i'm just giving it a reboot with a clean boot.log, so i can double check where i am at |
| 21:29.17 | Cope | ok |
| 21:29.39 | Eeyore | Well it had SELinux fairly well configured and I know redhat. |
| 21:32.30 | Eeyore | OKay |
| 21:33.24 | Eeyore | well yes, none of it starts |
| 21:33.34 | Cope | right |
| 21:33.39 | Eeyore | i'm beginnging to suspect it never goes into runlevel 5 but that would be caziness |
| 21:34.17 | Cope | grep default /etc/inittab |
| 21:34.20 | Eeyore | it does appear to shutdown scripts correctly |
| 21:34.33 | Eeyore | # 0 - halt (Do NOT set initdefault to this) |
| 21:34.33 | Eeyore | # 6 - reboot (Do NOT set initdefault to this) |
| 21:34.33 | Eeyore | id:3:initdefault: |
| 21:34.37 | Cope | there you go |
| 21:34.42 | Eeyore | BAH! |
| 21:34.45 | Cope | its not getting to runlevl 5 |
| 21:34.46 | Eeyore | craziness |
| 21:34.50 | Eeyore | it isn't going to runlevel 5 |
| 21:34.54 | Eeyore | is that at all normal |
| 21:34.58 | Cope | sure |
| 21:35.03 | Cope | if you dont want x |
| 21:35.05 | Eeyore | oh my god i didn't realise that |
| 21:35.06 | Eeyore | lol |
| 21:35.09 | Eeyore | ok. |
| 21:35.12 | Eeyore | problem solved |
| 21:35.20 | Eeyore | my custom init scripts haven't killed the system after all |
| 21:35.26 | Cope | do chkconfig named on |
| 21:36.00 | Eeyore | what does that do if you don't specify runlevels? |
| 21:36.03 | JAV | hi |
| 21:36.40 | Eeyore | 2-5 ? or are defaults specified in the init scripts |
| 21:36.44 | Cope | default is off on on on on off |
| 21:36.55 | Cope | ie 2, 3, 4, 5 |
| 21:38.07 | Eeyore | ta, wow shame you weren't on last night at 2am. |
| 21:38.40 | Eeyore | though probably i was too annoyed by lack of ability to ask anyone at that point |
| 21:38.53 | Eeyore | still i did learn how to right init scripts so it wasn't an entirely wasted evening |
| 21:38.59 | Cope | absolutely |
| 21:39.05 | Eeyore | write. |
| 21:39.18 | Cope | what does your init script look like now? |
| 21:39.19 | Eeyore | reboot test |
| 21:39.27 | Cope | don't paste it in here, btw! |
| 21:39.34 | Eeyore | actually it has a glitch |
| 21:39.39 | Eeyore | the OK messages aren't printing |
| 21:39.43 | Eeyore | maybe a problem with ret values |
| 21:40.19 | Cope | well if you're going to reboot, when you come back, lob your script in a pastebin - I'd be interested to see it, |
| 21:40.52 | Eeyore | rm -f "$lockfile" && success || failure |
| 21:40.58 | Eeyore | that is doing something clever isn't it |
| 21:41.49 | BobtheAvenger | peace |
| 21:41.53 | Eeyore | yes it's that success failure thing |
| 21:41.57 | Eeyore | now i have the OK message |
| 21:43.57 | Eeyore | Although I haven't entirely got my head round selinux |
| 21:43.59 | Eeyore | i already like it |
| 21:44.32 | Cope | Eeyore: www.pastebin.com - show me your script :) |
| 21:44.43 | Eeyore | only just rebooted |
| 21:44.46 | Eeyore | ahng on |
| 21:44.47 | Cope | no hurry |
| 21:45.16 | Eeyore | it's only a wrapper on another script and the basis was copied from the doc file |
| 21:45.23 | Eeyore | so it's not terribly exciting |
| 21:45.36 | Eeyore | except the doc file was shite, so some was copied from the yum init script |
| 21:46.45 | *** join/#gllug apm-idmm (~apm-idmm@195.54.250.41) |
| 21:46.49 | Cope | fair enough |
| 21:48.16 | Eeyore | pasted |
| 21:48.24 | Eeyore | some comments are wrong |
| 21:48.29 | Eeyore | as i was writing two scripts |
| 21:48.37 | Cope | what's the url? |
| 21:48.55 | Eeyore | http://www.pastebin.com/240319 |
| 21:49.32 | apm-idmm | hi everybody! |
| 21:50.00 | Eeyore | i concur with whoever says magic comments suck. |
| 21:50.23 | Cope | why have you put a - in there? |
| 21:50.38 | Cope | that means don't start in any runlevels |
| 21:51.09 | Cope | hello apm-idmm |
| 21:51.46 | Eeyore | does that matter? |
| 21:51.49 | Cope | yes |
| 21:52.07 | Cope | if you want the comment to do what its supposed to do :) |
| 21:52.16 | Eeyore | i don't understand those things at the top when using chkconfig sets the runlevels anyway |
| 21:52.21 | Eeyore | are they defaults? |
| 21:53.18 | Cope | there are 2 comments - one which tells chkconfig in which runlevels the service should start, and a description |
| 21:53.46 | Cope | eg # chkconfig: 2345 20 90 |
| 21:53.58 | apm-idmm | i am new to this linux debian thing and cannot get shutdown -h now to shut the power off on my laptop. There are no apm or acpi option in the BIOS. what can this beginner do? |
| 21:54.14 | Cope | use the off switch |
| 21:54.25 | Eeyore | harsh |
| 21:54.41 | Eeyore | but they are just defaults right? |
| 21:54.53 | apm-idmm | Cope: i need apm or acpi on the laptop for obvious reasons |
| 21:54.53 | Eeyore | as soon as you tell chkconfig to enable a service it just works |
| 21:54.58 | Eeyore | or atleast it seems to |
| 21:55.02 | Eeyore | as the services have started |
| 21:55.03 | Cope | apm-idmm: yeah sorry - was being facetious. |
| 21:55.29 | apm-idmm | Cope: what can this newbie do? |
| 21:55.50 | Eeyore | and everyone sites just start up again (http://www.brainj.net/puzzleindex.php) |
| 21:56.01 | Eeyore | so no more complaints every time i reboot and forget to startup 101 services |
| 21:56.21 | Eeyore | woot |
| 21:56.32 | Eeyore | nearly back to where i was 6 months again! |
| 21:57.04 | Eeyore | only this time with a bigger hard disk, SELinux, wheel group, current kernel and iptables better configured. |
| 21:57.08 | Eeyore | so it wasn't entirely wasted |
| 21:57.32 | Eeyore | i was so so slack not updating my kernels |
| 21:57.42 | Eeyore | i shan't make that mistake again |
| 21:58.33 | Eeyore | why can't they make hotswappable kernels, where the kernels just flip while the system is running :) |
| 21:59.58 | Cope | apm-idmm: the place I was looking for some ideas isn't up at present |
| 22:00.18 | Cope | I don't know much about apm / acpi - its always 'just worked' for me. |
| 22:01.22 | mozrat_ | <quote="email sent to my group today about an uphappy client"> |
| 22:01.32 | mozrat_ | For what I gathered from my ear-twisting session the feeling within $COMPANY is not only that we've dropped the ball with regards to this office but we've managed to drop it, kick it over the fence into next doors garden and the old lady next door has locked it in her shed. |
| 22:01.36 | mozrat_ | </quote> |
| 22:03.01 | Cope | fantastic |
| 22:03.16 | Eeyore | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4253849.stm <- lovely story |
| 22:03.38 | Cope | apm-idmm: cat /etc/debian_version |
| 22:05.08 | Cope | Eeyore: eel |
| 22:05.10 | Cope | eek |
| 22:05.29 | Cope | apm-idmm: what debian version are you running? |
| 22:05.37 | apm-idmm | unstable |
| 22:05.50 | apm-idmm | kernel 2.6.10 |
| 22:06.17 | Cope | using lilo or grub? |
| 22:06.30 | Cope | grub, I presume |
| 22:08.34 | Cope | what laptop are you using? |
| 22:08.49 | apm-idmm | compaq presario 1400 |
| 22:10.41 | Cope | have you googled to see if others have made this work? |
| 22:10.57 | Cope | quick look for me suggests this not working with knoppix, which is a bad sign. |
| 22:12.03 | apm-idmm | unstable |
| 22:12.35 | apm-idmm | debian stable gave me a lot of grief regarding hardware, etc. |
| 22:12.53 | Cope | yeah, drivers are pretty old on debian stable |
| 22:14.02 | apm-idmm | dmesg |grep apm gives apm: BIOS not found |
| 22:14.13 | Cope | http://devel.linuxwiki.de/gaga/KNOPPIX_2fHardwareDatenbank_2fNotebook |
| 22:14.24 | Cope | Kein APM |
| 22:14.32 | Cope | looks like you may struggle. |
| 22:15.10 | apm-idmm | Cope: your link is dead |
| 22:15.31 | Cope | sorry |
| 22:16.35 | Cope | http://66.102.9.104/linux?q=cache:FEWrA3St_bQJ:devel.linuxwiki.de/gaga/KNOPPIX_2fHardwareDatenbank_2fNotebook+%22compaq+presario+1400%22+apm&hl=en |
| 22:16.49 | Cope | that's the cached version |
| 22:18.40 | Cope | anyway, I would guess that you won't get apm working; you'll have to resort to other battery saving options - see http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Battery-Powered/index.html |
| 22:23.35 | apm-idmm | that is too techie for a newbie. no wonder why most windows laptop users just use windows. my girlfriend wants me to reinstall w2k not only because apm but also the modem, the nic giving poor performance under linux, etc |
| 22:24.59 | Cope | apm-idmm: if you don't like it, ask for your money back :-) |
| 22:25.47 | apm-idmm | from the seller at the computer market who sold it to me? |
| 22:26.04 | apm-idmm | i paid 10 pounds |
| 22:26.33 | Cope | apm-idmm: seriously - that doc is not that hard to understand, and you'll get plenty of support if you ask focussed questions; unfortunately no, linux may not always be as easy to use on a laptop as windows; but in other areas you may find linux is better. Your choice really. |
| 22:27.35 | Eeyore | as soon as some major vendors roll start rolling out enterprise linux desktops (yes i know it comes on slashdot every day) I reckon more hardware manufactures will support linux. |
| 22:28.21 | Eeyore | I reckon it will happen, particularly in countries that don't want to be 0wned by a US software firm. |
| 22:28.28 | apm-idmm | support from whom? compaq does not support linux on their laptops. as for irc channels i got sneered in quite a few |
| 22:28.31 | Jango | apm-idmm, did you compile acpi into the kernel? |
| 22:28.32 | harkness | I did a RHEL4 desktop rollout to hotel chain - with over 1,000 desktops before Christmas |
| 22:28.48 | apm-idmm | acpi? my laptop is over 5 years old |
| 22:28.52 | Jango | ah |
| 22:28.53 | Jango | apm then |
| 22:29.00 | apm-idmm | yes I did! |
| 22:29.09 | Jango | all the options/ |
| 22:29.10 | Jango | ? |
| 22:29.15 | apm-idmm | do you want me to se you my .config? |
| 22:29.16 | Eeyore | Oh yeah now HP doesn't support it I was saying in the future. |
| 22:29.19 | Jango | what make laptop? |
| 22:29.22 | Jango | apm-idmm, no :P |
| 22:29.24 | Cope | apm-idmm: I know its a pain, but you can live without apm. We can look at your nic performance - probably very simple. Modems - get an external one - it will be better than a winmodem and cost you 5 quid. |
| 22:29.46 | apm-idmm | you mean an external serial modem? |
| 22:29.49 | Cope | yeah |
| 22:29.56 | Cope | don't tell me - the laptop has no serial port? |
| 22:30.01 | apm-idmm | sorry! NO serial ports on the laptop!' |
| 22:30.05 | Cope | d'oh! |
| 22:30.21 | Jango | hehe |
| 22:30.37 | Jango | my desktop of 9 years has usb |
| 22:31.19 | Cope | looks like you're just unlucky - its not linux's fault though; the developers can only do so much... many hardware issues are down to kit not adhering to open standards, or being specifically designed for windows. |
| 22:32.06 | Cope | but that laptop would make a good firewall, if you stick another nic in :-) |
| 22:32.35 | apm-idmm | live without apm? the laptop is always on the move! |
| 22:33.12 | Cope | I know how frustrating it can be when you've poured hours into getting something to work, and at the end you're undone by something completely beyond your control. |
| 22:34.19 | Cope | apm-idmm: by all means subscribe to the list and ask for help there; I suspect you'll be out of luck, but that's just my reading based on 10 mins reading around the subject and googling for your laptop. |
| 22:34.48 | Jango | apm-idmm, you'll be fine if you stick a battery meter in the prompt :P |
| 22:34.58 | Jango | which of course you can't get the values for without apm :/ |
| 22:37.21 | apm-idmm | well, how? |
| 22:41.51 | apm-idmm | i have googled for hours, spent days on other irc channels asking, etc |
| 22:43.00 | Eeyore | I hear win2k has good APM support |
| 22:44.06 | harkness | The only reason windows has good apm support is because MS broke the published standard with win98 and the hardware manfacturers tried to copy. That is why there are so many different implementations |
| 22:44.36 | Eeyore | Sure, they make a new standard. the windows standard. |
| 22:44.39 | Eeyore | but it does work |
| 22:46.59 | harkness | Mostly - Have seen many instances where it is recommended to turn off apm/acpi because the implementations are broken. |
| 22:47.26 | Cope | indeed |
| 22:47.32 | apm-idmm | people say use linux because of choice but what if that choice does not offer you the functionality you need? |
| 22:47.46 | Cope | apm-idmm: that's not the fault of linux |
| 22:48.46 | apm-idmm | yes |
| 22:48.49 | Cope | no one is forcing you to use linux; you weigh it up. If you *need* apm and your hardware happens to have a bad or no implementation, then use windows instead. |
| 22:49.15 | Cope | or buy a better laptop; or do your research before buying a laptop next time. |
| 22:49.47 | apm-idmm | buy a better laptop? i am broke |
| 22:49.51 | Cope | I've had 3 laptops - the first one I paid about 500 pounds for, and was a real pig with linux. |
| 22:49.59 | harkness | If I have two rpms installed - one i386 and the other x86_64 - how do I differentiate on the command line? |
| 22:50.28 | Cope | differentiate in what way? |
| 22:50.52 | harkness | I want to uninstall the i386 version - not the x86_64 |
| 22:50.55 | Cope | ah ok |
| 22:51.01 | SlayerXP | good question |
| 22:51.05 | SlayerXP | I lack the answer |
| 22:51.07 | harkness | LOL |
| 22:51.48 | SlayerXP | never tried to mix 32 and 64 bit environments |
| 22:52.30 | harkness | fc3 does it by default and so does RHEL3 - there are applications that still need 32bit libraries |
| 22:52.31 | Cope | rpm -e packagename.i386 |
| 22:53.48 | SlayerXP | i have debian and windows, 32 and 64 bit and ne'er the twain shall meet |
| 22:55.28 | Cope | harkness: is that ok? |
| 22:55.45 | harkness | I have unfortunately production environments with things like Clearcase that mix 32 and 64 - it is the only way to get things going. |
| 22:56.02 | harkness | Cope: great job. It worked a treat |
| 22:57.02 | harkness | I hear that the clearcase guys were asking questions on the kernel mailing list - One of the developers suggested that to do the things they wanted they would have to be developing GPL software :-) |
| 22:59.56 | Cope | right - to bed or some more python. |
| 23:10.28 | George | clearing my desk is so tedious |
| 23:10.42 | Jango | just get a big black plastic sack |
| 23:15.21 | Cope | George: home time? |
| 23:15.24 | Cope | already!? |
| 23:16.14 | George | Cope: no |
| 23:16.20 | George | Cope: new desk coming tomorrow |
| 23:16.23 | Cope | ah cool |
| 23:16.25 | George | Cope: so I need to clear out my old one |
| 23:16.27 | Cope | sure |
| 23:16.46 | George | tis a pain |
| 23:16.50 | Cope | indeed |
| 23:16.56 | George | and I hope this new desk is much much larger than my current one :) |
| 23:16.58 | Cope | is the new desk an improvement? |
| 23:17.02 | George | there's enough room in this room for a full size desk |
| 23:17.09 | George | but for some reason I have a smallish desk |
| 23:17.28 | George | there's a half metre gap to the side of the desk which isn't used |
| 23:17.44 | George | but knowing my school, I've probably got a desk that's exactly the same size |
| 23:24.56 | Jango | isn't it supposed to be KiB nowadays? |
| 23:25.01 | Jango | like GiB |
| 23:26.49 | George | NO |
| 23:27.02 | George | that requires an extra byte |
| 23:32.19 | George | cya Cope |
| 23:32.34 | George | send my felicitations to all the other Copes |
| 23:32.43 | Cope | will do! :-) |
| 23:32.50 | Cope | See you tomorrow - I am on holiday now! |
| 23:32.54 | George | lol |
| 23:32.55 | George | cya :) |
| 23:33.00 | George | Half term for me on Saturday |
| 23:33.05 | George | till Sunday the following week |
| 23:33.08 | *** join/#gllug Numz (~Numz@82-35-18-215.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 23:33.16 | Cope | i'm only off till wed |
| 23:33.23 | George | Cope: well, have fun |
| 23:33.23 | Cope | ---> bed |
| 23:33.26 | George | night |
