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| 10:08.43 | Marios_ | morning |
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| 10:18.53 | Leeds | morning Tarragon |
| 10:19.01 | Tarragon | Moin |
| 10:19.22 | Marios_ | morning Leeds, Tarragon |
| 10:19.40 | Leeds | morning Marios_ |
| 10:19.47 | Tarragon | Moin Marios_ |
| 10:20.33 | Tarragon | Note to self. Check diary before going out to crosscountry race. Today is 12th and not 19th Doh! |
| 10:20.59 | Leeds | Tarragon: a good lesson for us all, indeed |
| 10:21.51 | AngelChild | :D |
| 10:22.13 | Tarragon | Felt so stupid when I turned up all ready for the race only to see Saturday morning footballers getting ready and no-one else about. |
| 10:22.30 | Leeds | heh |
| 10:22.36 | AngelChild | better than being a week late :) |
| 10:23.12 | Leeds | Tarragon: I managed to be a day early for a hospital appointment in December, and was nearly an hour early for the same appointment this week, but I remembered before I left... |
| 10:24.29 | AngelChild | ahh, slackware is my kind of distro |
| 10:24.33 | AngelChild | it's just so... lazy... |
| 10:24.50 | Leeds | :-) |
| 10:25.01 | Leeds | yet, so reliable |
| 10:25.33 | AngelChild | and it's package management system just uses tarballs xD |
| 10:26.33 | Leeds | right, no fuss, no hassle, it just works |
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| 10:27.06 | AngelChild | and you can install it while you go get your washing :) |
| 10:27.58 | Marios_ | Leeds: I ain't coming to Brussels |
| 10:28.18 | Leeds | Marios_: :-( |
| 10:28.20 | Tarragon | Isn't there some problem with Slack at the moment, in that packages are being removed? |
| 10:28.40 | Marios_ | Leeds: I am going to the US for 2-3 weeks middle of March |
| 10:28.47 | Leeds | ah |
| 10:29.16 | Leeds | Tarragon: in what sense? Pat has said that he doesn't like maintaining GNOME, when there are external people already doing a better job, but I wouldn't call it a problem |
| 10:29.49 | Tarragon | So there is no problem to install those packages if you want? |
| 10:30.12 | Leeds | apparently |
| 10:36.56 | Jango | what procedure do you have to go through nowadays to update the system? |
| 10:37.02 | Jango | (slack) |
| 10:53.37 | Tarragon | Jango, Use the slackware tool - swaret |
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| 11:26.41 | itsbruce | "no fuss, no hassle, it just works" applies to rpm or dpkg, fwiw. Any bad rep they have for unmanageability is entirely down to fuckwits who would make even more of a mess on Slack. |
| 11:27.30 | AngelChild | emerge xD |
| 11:33.08 | itsbruce | Just don't start about dependency hell or I will come round and tattoo this on your back: http://opencurve.org/~sunny/zealot.html |
| 11:34.25 | AngelChild | I need three monitors |
| 11:34.37 | AngelChild | one for coding, one for code output and one to show me what's currently emerging xD |
| 11:34.41 | Jango | i need 2 tfts |
| 11:34.55 | Jango | i already got 3 monitors, but they take up too much desk space |
| 11:35.06 | Jango | and you forgot, 1 for irc ;) |
| 11:36.35 | AngelChild | ah yes |
| 11:36.40 | AngelChild | so i did xD |
| 11:38.07 | Jango | you ever played with distributed emerging/compiling? |
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| 14:11.29 | *** join/#gllug ikea (ikea@ruggigt.hemlig.net) |
| 14:11.36 | ikea | wei! |
| 14:11.49 | ikea | this channel isn't listed on that lonix page of yours... |
| 14:12.02 | ikea | anyway, let's get down to teh shiat. |
| 14:12.05 | ikea | Anyone here? |
| 14:12.08 | AngelChild | nope |
| 14:12.11 | AngelChild | we're all dead :D |
| 14:12.22 | ikea | AngelChild: sure |
| 14:12.26 | ikea | :P |
| 14:12.38 | ikea | anyway |
| 14:13.08 | ikea | I'm going to london on a 'holiday' from my military service (I'm a tank driver in the swedish army) |
| 14:13.22 | ikea | and I need somewhere to crash. |
| 14:13.23 | AngelChild | ahh |
| 14:13.31 | AngelChild | try into 10 downing street |
| 14:13.34 | ikea | Hopefully some of you guys are open minded enough to solve this :) |
| 14:13.37 | AngelChild | or trafalgar square, at speed |
| 14:13.42 | ikea | huh? |
| 14:13.50 | AngelChild | crahs what anyway, car, plane? |
| 14:13.52 | AngelChild | ;p |
| 14:14.42 | ikea | :P |
| 14:14.46 | ikea | somewhere to sleep tehn |
| 14:14.48 | ikea | *teh |
| 14:14.50 | ikea | dammit! |
| 14:14.51 | ikea | *tehn |
| 14:14.53 | ikea | *then |
| 14:14.55 | ikea | there we go :) |
| 14:15.47 | ikea | If you can't set me (and to other fellows) up with somewhere to sleep, at least tell me where it's cheap to stay for two night (_really_ cheap that is) |
| 14:16.05 | ikea | We don't ming sleeping in some cellar or whatever, as long as it's warm |
| 14:16.07 | AngelChild | the street :) |
| 14:16.09 | AngelChild | oh |
| 14:16.14 | AngelChild | well |
| 14:16.26 | ikea | *two |
| 14:16.28 | AngelChild | you could try like novatels or travellodges or similar, or random pubs |
| 14:16.43 | ikea | AngelChild: random pubs? :) |
| 14:17.03 | AngelChild | i know very little about london, which makes my presence in this channel a little sketchy but nvm xD |
| 14:17.08 | ikea | :P |
| 14:17.17 | ikea | anyone in here who actually live in london? :) |
| 14:18.10 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 14:19.08 | Leeds | ikea: London isn't a cheap place to stay :-( |
| 14:19.53 | Leeds | and you want to be careful with a name like that - could cause a riot around here... |
| 14:20.33 | AngelChild | :o |
| 14:21.35 | ikea | heh |
| 14:22.02 | ikea | Leeds: well, that's why I'm looking for someone who's willing to lend me some floor space to spend two nights on |
| 14:22.08 | George | AngelChild: sucker. |
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| 14:56.06 | Jango | i thought AngelChild was already dead? |
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| 14:56.40 | Leeds | nope, just sleeping, I think |
| 14:57.30 | Jango | * AngelChild dies |
| 14:57.48 | Jango | i keep dropping my minieggs on the floor :( |
| 14:58.16 | ikea | Jango: minieggs? |
| 14:58.36 | Jango | yea, cadbury's mini eggs |
| 14:58.40 | Jango | they are chocolate |
| 14:58.47 | ikea | ok |
| 14:58.51 | ikea | Jango: got some space over? |
| 14:58.52 | Jango | and i've got a whole bag here :) |
| 14:58.59 | Jango | nope :/ |
| 14:59.05 | ikea | doh |
| 14:59.22 | Jango | ikea's been in the news a bit here |
| 14:59.27 | ikea | somebody in here should be able to host three people for two nights. |
| 14:59.31 | ikea | Jango: for what? |
| 14:59.36 | Jango | cos our trashy edmonton people trying to kill each other |
| 14:59.50 | Jango | when they opened up a new store at midnight, 7000 people gatecrashed it |
| 14:59.50 | Leeds | ikea: this may be a little strange, but I'm not sure that asking complete strangers if you can stay with them, out of no-where, is the best way to go about it |
| 15:02.44 | rdancer | where should i put nfs exports for individual hosts, and boot images to be retrieved over tftp -- /exports and /tftpboot doesn't look like the right place? |
| 15:02.54 | ikea | Leeds: that's is the absolute cheapest way to do it :) |
| 15:03.40 | Leeds | ikea: yes, but it's not much good if it doesn't work |
| 15:03.42 | ikea | Leeds: I don't mind meeting new people. And I don't think somebody would want to steal from me either |
| 15:03.53 | ikea | Leeds: I wouldn't find out if I didn't try anyway |
| 15:04.23 | rdancer | ikea: what about a hostel? |
| 15:05.18 | morsing | How is everyone? |
| 15:05.23 | ikea | rdancer: found some place for 70 pound, two nights, three pople |
| 15:05.32 | ikea | morsing: in need of a place to stay :) |
| 15:05.49 | rdancer | ikea: millenniumlodge.com :: two nights, three pople, GBP 60 |
| 15:06.00 | ikea | rdancer: but that's still a bit to expensive. I would rather spend that on alcohol |
| 15:06.24 | Leeds | ikea: oh, you're planning to have a couple of drinks each? London is an expensive place to drink... |
| 15:06.51 | Leeds | :-) |
| 15:06.58 | ikea | Leeds: sweden isn't that cheap either... |
| 15:07.09 | ikea | don't think there is so big diffrence. |
| 15:07.19 | ikea | that din't make sense. nevermind. |
| 15:07.26 | Jango | it's probably cheaper to drink coke :P |
| 15:07.29 | ikea | Leeds: what's a beer? |
| 15:07.35 | rdancer | beerwise, GBP 10 / person / night is good enough |
| 15:07.45 | Leeds | ikea: a fermented drink made from hops, barley and so on |
| 15:07.53 | ikea | :P |
| 15:07.58 | ikea | what does it cost? |
| 15:08.25 | Leeds | most expensive I've seen is a fiver for a 330ml glass - but that was stupid |
| 15:08.29 | ikea | dammit. need to spend a few seconds more before I type stuff... |
| 15:08.33 | ikea | 'a fiver' ? |
| 15:08.39 | Leeds | five pounds |
| 15:08.57 | Leeds | are you guys in euroland or still using krona? |
| 15:09.06 | ikea | kronor |
| 15:09.32 | Leeds | ah, okay... I'm good at converting to euros :-) |
| 15:09.37 | Leeds | ibot change 5 gbp to skk |
| 15:09.43 | rdancer | will ss5 netboot over udp only? -- i.e. can i just allow udp on ingress of the server, so that the packet filtering is not torned down completely? |
| 15:09.49 | rdancer | heh |
| 15:10.13 | ikea | ibot change 5 gbp to sek |
| 15:10.16 | rdancer | Leeds: you going to .sk? |
| 15:10.43 | Leeds | bloody european hold-outs - would be much easier if everyone just used US$ as the good lord intended |
| 15:10.53 | Leeds | rdancer: nope, not planning on it |
| 15:10.58 | ikea | hmm |
| 15:11.27 | Leeds | ikea: in most places, you're looking to pay about half that for a ping (570ml or so) |
| 15:11.29 | Leeds | pint! |
| 15:11.30 | ikea | 4 gbp would be what a 0,5l beer would cost in sweden |
| 15:11.39 | rdancer | Leeds: it's <iso country code><monetary unit abbreviation> |
| 15:11.53 | rdancer | Leeds: CZK, SEK, SKK |
| 15:12.05 | rdancer | even GBP, and USD |
| 15:12.39 | Leeds | rdancer: I know - it was a slip of the brain... I keep getting caught out because the standard abbreviation for the Israeli currency is NIS, but ibot wants ILS |
| 15:13.49 | rdancer | Leeds: hmm, i wonder who makes up these abbrevs |
| 15:14.10 | rdancer | ``XE.com - ISO 4217 Type Currency Code List'' |
| 15:14.15 | rdancer | a-ha |
| 15:14.20 | Leeds | rdancer: yes, they're a standard... |
| 15:14.44 | Leeds | NIS is New Israeli Shekel - it's like calling them Pounds Sterling - it's the full name of the currency |
| 15:14.57 | rdancer | ``ILS Israel, New Shekels'' |
| 15:15.05 | Leeds | ikea: are you going to FOSDEM? |
| 15:16.03 | rdancer | Leeds: calling it NIS seems to me like calling that one CC (for ``Czech Crown'') |
| 15:21.09 | rdancer | ibot: change 1 GBP to XDR |
| 15:21.18 | rdancer | ibot: bah! |
| 15:21.19 | ibot | hmm... bah is everyone's other favourite word (see heh) |
| 15:21.25 | morsing | Netgear Home router seriously sucks! |
| 15:21.40 | rdancer | morsing: ng sucks in general |
| 15:22.06 | morsing | What's a good configurable router with a CLI? |
| 15:22.14 | morsing | For less than #400 |
| 15:22.25 | rhowe_ | morsing: Soekris net4801 :) |
| 15:22.28 | Leeds | PC running Linux? |
| 15:22.38 | Leeds | or any other decent OS |
| 15:22.44 | morsing | No harddrives or fans please |
| 15:22.50 | rhowe | morsing: Soekris net4801 |
| 15:22.56 | morsing | How much? |
| 15:22.57 | Leeds | mini-itx machine with CF storage |
| 15:23.03 | morsing | Mini MAC? |
| 15:23.03 | rhowe | morsing: US$250 or so |
| 15:23.33 | morsing | rhowe: How do I install it? |
| 15:23.36 | Leeds | mini mac only has one built-in network socket - you'd have to add the other on USB or firewire |
| 15:23.44 | Leeds | and it has both a fan and a hard drive... |
| 15:24.11 | rhowe | morsing: Lemme think how much I spent on mine.. it was about US$280 or so, plus 60 quid of wireless kit, plus my existing ADSL modem/router jobbie (although you can get a PCI DSL card for a tenner), plus 45 quid for 1G CF |
| 15:24.17 | clyphox | I was very close to buying one this week |
| 15:24.23 | morsing | I only need one NIC |
| 15:24.47 | rhowe | morsing: Debian sarge'll install via TFTP, the BSDs too, I suspect |
| 15:24.51 | morsing | rhowe: Which DSL card did you get? |
| 15:24.52 | clyphox | but just can't do it when I compare the price with the ones with the US apple site |
| 15:25.02 | morsing | I'd like FreeBSD on it |
| 15:25.06 | rhowe | morsing: I have the Bewan one, but I'm not using it yet. No PCI DSL card has open source drivers |
| 15:25.07 | clyphox | apple is ripping us off.. its wrong imo :-( |
| 15:25.27 | morsing | rhowe: I've got a modem anyway so no worries |
| 15:25.29 | rhowe | morsing: Soekris seem to favour the BSDs, and I can see why really. www.soekris.com |
| 15:25.56 | rhowe | morsing: the net4801's one of the higher end ones. You can get slower ones for less |
| 15:26.26 | clyphox | soekris rocks |
| 15:26.35 | rhowe | Yeah, I'm liking mine a lot |
| 15:26.44 | rhowe | Will probably get one or two more next month |
| 15:26.52 | clyphox | what kinda case r u using? have problems getting a good psu? |
| 15:27.48 | rhowe | I'm using the case they supplied, although if I want to put the PCI DSL card in, I'll need a larger one (it's a full-height card). The supplied PSU seemed to be faulty, and it's not worth sending it back to the US for replacement, so I'm using a PSU from an external CD rewriter |
| 15:27.57 | morsing | rhowe: Have you written a HOWTO? Have you got a list of all the bits I need to order? |
| 15:28.00 | Leeds | clyphox: 24 hours from now I'll be on a plane to the US - and we can get our employee discount in Apple stores now, so I can see myself buying one next week |
| 15:28.50 | rhowe | morsing: It was pretty much entirely a no-brainer for Linux. Debian sarge just worked, aside from having to configure GRUB to use the serial console, and everything else was as you'd do for a regular Linux box |
| 15:29.30 | rhowe | morsing: There's a little tiny kernel patch you can apply, which I did. I don't see what difference it really makes though, apart from adding an entry to menuconfig - there are no code changes |
| 15:30.22 | rhowe | morsing: I need to rebuild it though - I'd like to use jffs2 instead of ext2, otherwise the CF card's going to die soon |
| 15:30.41 | rhowe | morsing: Also, note the 128Mb non-upgradeable RAM. I don't know if that'll be a problem for what you're doing |
| 15:31.10 | ikea | rdancer: FOSDEM? |
| 15:31.17 | morsing | rhowe: I need 32MB RAM and 128MB disk |
| 15:31.22 | morsing | And a NIC |
| 15:31.41 | rhowe | morsing: OK, well a 128M CF card is peanuts these days - you may as well go 256 for the price |
| 15:31.48 | ikea | still noone in here offering me a place to stay? :) |
| 15:32.02 | rhowe | ikea: I don't have a place of my own, so I'm in no position to |
| 15:32.05 | morsing | Stay where? In Aylesbury? |
| 15:32.09 | rdancer | !fosdem |
| 15:32.13 | rdancer | ~fosdem |
| 15:32.14 | ibot | [fosdem] the Free and Open source Software Developers' European Meeting, a 2 day event, organized by volunteers, to promote the widespread use of Free and Open Source software. http://www.fosdem.org, or on the 21st and 22nd of February in 2004 |
| 15:33.29 | rdancer | ikea: gbp 60 for b'n'b & free shuttle to/from victoria stn. is almost free ;-) |
| 15:35.00 | rhowe | morsing: Soekris also produce hardware crypto cards, which only really have decent drivers for BSD, from what I can see |
| 15:36.39 | morsing | Is the net4801 the model to go for or are any of the others good enough? |
| 15:38.17 | rhowe | Depends what you're doing |
| 15:38.54 | rhowe | You've got two main criteria - features and spec. Do you need miniPCI? Do you need PCI? Do you need IDE? etc and how much power do you need? |
| 15:39.39 | rhowe | So use your feature requirements to reduce the list of possibles and then decide which one to buy based on a performance/cost tradeoff |
| 15:40.51 | rhowe | I wouldn't go for one that's overspec just because you might possibly want to do more with it later - best just to buy another when you actually need a more powerful box, I'd say. |
| 15:41.39 | clyphox | hmm I want lart board again |
| 15:41.45 | rhowe | lart? |
| 15:41.47 | clyphox | <afk now |
| 15:41.51 | clyphox | yeah lart.. |
| 15:41.55 | clyphox | kewl stuff |
| 15:42.19 | clyphox | not as usefull as soekris but more fun hehe |
| 15:42.35 | morsing | ibot lart |
| 15:42.43 | rhowe | ibot lart clyphox |
| 15:47.57 | morsing | So I need PSU, CF card as well. #160? |
| 15:48.03 | morsing | #170? |
| 15:57.37 | ikea | morsing: london, somewhere |
| 15:58.53 | ikea | hmmmpf. missing FOSDEM with two days. |
| 16:00.13 | ikea | Do you guys go out alot? |
| 16:00.32 | ikea | Something tells me that you spend more time indoors |
| 16:00.39 | ikea | I know I do anyway. |
| 16:00.51 | morsing | Mmm... beer. I mean... milk |
| 16:00.57 | ikea | Need some guidance once I arrive in london... |
| 16:03.18 | ikea | hmmm |
| 16:03.33 | ikea | do the underground run 24/7? |
| 16:04.54 | ikea | could anyone check if it's possible to get from Luton airport to central london on a thursday around 24:00? (please) |
| 16:07.01 | morsing | ikea: No. Stops at 1:00 |
| 16:07.27 | ikea | morsing: all the lines? :/ |
| 16:07.47 | morsing | ikea: You might be able to get to London but the tube will have stoped so you can't get anywhere |
| 16:07.58 | morsing | ikea: Yes, all the lines. |
| 16:08.10 | ikea | morsing: there must be some way to get around.... bus? |
| 16:08.41 | morsing | Well, first problem is a train from Luton. Is that possible? |
| 16:08.47 | ikea | morsing: we arrive around 23:30 in Luton. |
| 16:08.51 | ikea | I have no idea. |
| 16:09.03 | ikea | it's 5 miles though. Almost walking distance ffs. |
| 16:09.26 | morsing | There's an express bus from Luton airport to Watford Junction. From there you can get a train to London. |
| 16:09.54 | morsing | I just don't think the bus is still running at that time |
| 16:10.18 | *** part/#gllug itsbruce (~bruce@i-194-106-60-104.freedom2surf.net) |
| 16:11.54 | ikea | morsing: dammit. |
| 16:12.02 | ikea | what does a taxi cost? |
| 16:12.28 | morsing | ikea: To London around 2500SEK |
| 16:12.45 | morsing | To Watford around 800SEK |
| 16:12.59 | morsing | Ok, 2500SEK might be a stretch :--) |
| 16:13.23 | morsing | I've done MK to WJ which was 90 pounds |
| 16:13.41 | Leeds | there's also the easybus - cheap minibus to Hendon |
| 16:13.50 | morsing | At 23:30? |
| 16:13.57 | Leeds | I don't know how late it runs |
| 16:13.59 | morsing | And what would you do in Hendon? |
| 16:14.13 | Leeds | morsing: night bus to town? |
| 16:14.35 | morsing | The Easybus goes to Watford as well |
| 16:14.38 | Leeds | better being in Hendon at midnight than Watford, I think |
| 16:14.44 | Leeds | no it doesn't |
| 16:14.45 | morsing | Watford rocks! |
| 16:14.54 | morsing | Leeds: Yes it does |
| 16:15.09 | Leeds | last easybus is 2000 anyway |
| 16:15.19 | Leeds | morsing: since when? their website just says Hendon and MK |
| 16:16.12 | morsing | http://www.mkdayout.btinternet.co.uk/milton_keynes_airport_links.htm |
| 16:16.29 | morsing | Leeds: Well, some rail link (easy or not) |
| 16:17.44 | morsing | Ikea: Who are you and why are you coming over here? |
| 16:18.26 | Leeds | morsing: sure - there are other busses, but easybus is very cheap |
| 16:19.07 | morsing | If he's willing to pay a cab does it matter? |
| 16:19.18 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mkoumide@82-45-239-23.cable.ubr01.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:19.53 | Leeds | not really, but he seems to be price-sensitive, since he's looking for free digs - adding 50 quid for cabs makes quite a difference |
| 16:20.37 | Marios_ | Leeds: in M25 how is the direction designated? |
| 16:21.14 | Leeds | Marios_: clockwise and anti-clockwise is the simplest way |
| 16:21.26 | Leeds | otherwise the direction obviously changes a lot dependong on where you are :-) |
| 16:21.46 | Marios_ | yes I understand that but on the signs...what do exactly have there? |
| 16:22.01 | Leeds | I don't know - I avoid going on the M25 |
| 16:22.03 | Marios_ | I have to go Heathrow pick a friend up... |
| 16:22.06 | Marios_ | ohh i see |
| 16:38.37 | *** join/#gllug floo (~gary@host-84-9-93-152.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 16:38.49 | morsing | floo! |
| 16:38.49 | floo | hello!! |
| 16:38.55 | floo | hi morsing |
| 16:39.00 | morsing | Going to FOSDEM? |
| 16:39.15 | floo | I hope to |
| 16:39.17 | *** join/#gllug rhowe (~rhowe@82.133.8.12) |
| 16:39.21 | morsing | Train? |
| 16:39.23 | floo | u? |
| 16:39.29 | morsing | I am yes |
| 16:39.35 | floo | I think it's best don't you? |
| 16:39.49 | morsing | Yup - tunnel and everything considered |
| 16:39.59 | Leeds | floo: you don't fancy flying? :-) |
| 16:40.01 | floo | will get pissed first so i don't panic through the tunnel |
| 16:40.16 | morsing | Sound |
| 16:40.24 | floo | leeds! now then! |
| 16:40.36 | floo | wot arr re accomm |
| 16:41.22 | floo | r we making our own? |
| 16:41.42 | floo | lucky sod! |
| 16:44.35 | floo | hmmm I've just found an email from Dan about cheap hotels |
| 16:44.54 | Leeds | he has already booked stuff... |
| 16:45.12 | floo | right so I'd better do it myself then |
| 16:45.26 | floo | shame I missed that...not to worry |
| 16:46.20 | floo | brb |
| 16:49.28 | floo | back now |
| 16:53.28 | Leeds | hmm... 6x DVD writing |
| 16:59.38 | morsing | Mmm... Writing |
| 17:01.30 | floo | morsing: how are you getting on with mandrake? |
| 17:02.37 | morsing | I hate KDE |
| 17:02.54 | floo | you can have gnome if you want |
| 17:03.00 | morsing | I'm scrapping it if anyone can get me two 3com 2000T cards! |
| 17:03.18 | morsing | #I need the PC for something else now |
| 17:03.26 | floo | scrapping Mandrake?? |
| 17:03.43 | morsing | Yes |
| 17:03.48 | morsing | For FreeBSD |
| 17:04.15 | floo | why don't you like Mdk then? |
| 17:04.50 | morsing | It doesn't suit me and I need FreeBSD on the PC |
| 17:05.04 | morsing | For a new internet server |
| 17:05.20 | floo | u need to know ur stuff with freebsd don't you? |
| 17:05.41 | morsing | Not too bad. Not as bad as Solaris definately |
| 17:05.48 | floo | I've heard it's doesn't make a good desktop |
| 17:06.04 | morsing | Don't know. I don't use desktops |
| 17:06.43 | floo | intriguing |
| 17:06.48 | morsing | Why? |
| 17:07.10 | floo | i can't imagine how one doesn't use a desktop |
| 17:07.18 | floo | or do u mean u don't use X |
| 17:07.47 | morsing | I do use X but mainly to have more than one shell to work with |
| 17:08.21 | floo | hmm... don't kknow if I'd like that |
| 17:08.39 | floo | I play games and watch dvds andsurf the web on mine |
| 17:09.19 | morsing | I surf the web as well. I don't play games (never have) and I have a DVD-player |
| 17:09.38 | floo | right |
| 17:10.00 | floo | if I was to just have a shell I'd be forever doing 'startx' |
| 17:10.44 | floo | so have u booked everything for fosdem? |
| 17:37.13 | *** join/#gllug rdancer (~r--t@rdancer.user) |
| 17:37.40 | rhowe | morsing: They can sell you a PSU, but the one they sent me is very intermittent, which isn't so good for a PSU |
| 17:37.53 | rhowe | morsing: It's weird - sometimes it works just fine, other times it won't even boot |
| 17:41.00 | morsing | floo: I've never done 'startx' |
| 17:41.13 | morsing | rhowe: So what are you using? |
| 17:41.43 | rhowe | morsing: A PSU from a BenQ external CDRW from work. Not a decent permanent solution - someone's going to want to use the thing before too long :) |
| 17:42.12 | rhowe | morsing: The board doesn't have any particularly fancy power requirements |
| 17:42.41 | rhowe | Fairly high current, but that's about it |
| 17:45.06 | morsing | 200amps? |
| 17:45.51 | rhowe | heh, can't remember offhand |
| 17:46.02 | rhowe | Though the PSU is about 2m away |
| 17:46.06 | rhowe | Want me to check? |
| 17:46.37 | morsing | No - I'm good |
| 17:47.27 | rhowe | Well I did anyway - 12V 1.5A is what Soekris supplied me with |
| 17:48.36 | Jango | my psu supplies 30-odd amps on the 12V rail :/ |
| 17:49.06 | rhowe | Necessary for your average PC these days |
| 17:50.42 | *** join/#gllug itsbruce (~bruce@i-194-106-60-104.freedom2surf.net) |
| 17:51.24 | rhowe | Can't see why not, so long as you can switch quickly and cleanly when main power fails |
| 17:51.55 | morsing | Well, I wouldn't need to switch then. The battery would power the 12v-to-230v inverter all the time. |
| 17:52.09 | rhowe | Perpetual battery? |
| 17:52.37 | morsing | No - a car battery charger on the battery |
| 17:52.50 | rhowe | Ah |
| 17:53.10 | rhowe | Sounds quite inefficient - step-down to 12V then step-up to 240 again |
| 17:53.17 | itsbruce | Sheesh. I have just spent some little time convincing my boss that it is *not* a good idea for servers to get their addresses from dhcp |
| 17:53.26 | rhowe | Also, are batteries happy being on charge 24/7? |
| 17:53.32 | morsing | Good inverters have 90-95% efficiency |
| 17:53.42 | rhowe | itsbruce: Actually, it can work really well |
| 17:53.57 | rhowe | itsbruce: So long as you can rely on your DHCP service :) |
| 17:54.04 | itsbruce | No, it's mostly very stupid. There are occasions where it makes sense, but dhcp is unreliable and insecure |
| 17:54.25 | rhowe | Insecure is the main problem, yes, but unreliable? |
| 17:54.37 | itsbruce | It's a point of failure waiting to bite you |
| 17:55.12 | itsbruce | A dhcp service can be perfectly robust but any combination of accidents can prevent a client contacting a dhcp server |
| 17:55.13 | rhowe | You can just run dhcpd on sufficient hosts that the risk of failure becomes less than say, the risk of your switches failing |
| 17:55.41 | itsbruce | At which point you lose any gain in administrative ease |
| 17:55.55 | rhowe | In most of those situations though, it doesn't matter if it has an address or not, since it's likely isolated from the network anyhow |
| 17:56.24 | stephen | itsbruce: our servers at work mostly use DHCP, works fine. |
| 17:56.28 | itsbruce | Aye, but he was arguing for all of our services to work that way. Madness. |
| 17:56.44 | itsbruce | stephen: it's unnecessary. How often do you change their ip addresses? |
| 17:57.14 | itsbruce | And how many are you responsible for? Hundreds in my case but I still don't want them dhcp-ing. |
| 17:57.26 | stephen | yes, several hundred |
| 17:57.54 | stephen | and there's other network information that may change, such as DHCP servers or default gateway |
| 17:58.12 | itsbruce | So why risk a situation where the only thing to have failed on your network be the dhcp server, but this then causes failure of systems all over? |
| 17:58.21 | itsbruce | stephen: So use cfengine or rdist or whatever |
| 17:58.25 | stephen | we have more than one DHCP server |
| 17:59.37 | itsbruce | Still not swayed. I took some time early on to roll out cfengine and I can make any changes like that in a secure and predictable manner. Don't have to wait for leases to expire... |
| 18:00.06 | itsbruce | Don't have to worry about dhcp spoofing, nothing stops working if the cfengine master goes away, big win. |
| 18:00.37 | rhowe | What's the worst that DHCP spoofing could do anyway? |
| 18:00.57 | rhowe | Give two servers the same address, or a different one, or change their default gateway |
| 18:01.22 | rhowe | Just basically break things. Hardly a security risk (nothing security-concious relies on the IP address as a means of authentication now, does it?) |
| 18:01.27 | itsbruce | Which can cause chaos. Also, you could point services at your own DNS servers and fuck a whole lot of security |
| 18:01.54 | itsbruce | So why risk it? For the machismo? |
| 18:02.18 | rhowe | Well if something's spoofing DHCP on your server segment, then one of the servers or a router got cracked |
| 18:02.29 | rhowe | So chaos has already begun |
| 18:02.50 | itsbruce | Balls. Someone could simply have had access to a switch they should have. |
| 18:02.52 | rhowe | If only DHCP could be signed |
| 18:03.14 | rhowe | DHCPsec :P |
| 18:03.31 | itsbruce | And both security and reliability are about incremental steps, not about not bothering at all because one thing may be compromised |
| 18:04.08 | rhowe | Incremental steps starting with the things most likely to cause a problem |
| 18:04.34 | itsbruce | That is not an argument for making it easier for them to cause a problem |
| 18:05.08 | rhowe | It is if there are benefits to be gained. |
| 18:05.19 | itsbruce | And we haven't even discussed the more likely cause of problems: human fuckup, rather than human malice |
| 18:05.24 | rhowe | For you, there aren't, since you see cfengine as perfectly adequate |
| 18:05.50 | itsbruce | I find adequate an odd word to describe cfengine compared to dhcp |
| 18:05.56 | evangineer | have found a couple of partial soutions for decrypting pdfs, but nothing that does a good enough job to enable scripted pdf form filling. |
| 18:07.16 | rhowe | Without knowing more about cfengine, I wouldn't know of a better word to use |
| 18:08.37 | itsbruce | I still stand by the point that server ip address changes are rare, as are route and gateway changes to production networks, so that dhcp offers a very tiny time gain with big potential problems |
| 18:09.09 | itsbruce | And that the work required to make it fireproof more than eats up that time gain, and that nothing makes it secure |
| 18:10.05 | itsbruce | And that one human error with dhcp can then bring a whole network down, whereas statically configured systems only break when they are actively interfered with |
| 18:11.10 | itsbruce | Especially since having multiple dhcp servers doesn't protect you from a misconfiguration on just one of them |
| 18:11.32 | itsbruce | It just makes it harder to predict which services will be fucked up |
| 18:13.16 | rhowe | Hm, I guess when you're running a network of *nix boxes, it's possible to manage them pretty much as effectively in other ways, and avoid some of the pitfalls that DHCP has.. |
| 18:13.30 | itsbruce | Aye. |
| 18:13.39 | rhowe | However, I don't run a network of *nix boxes :P |
| 18:14.02 | itsbruce | And some of the server management tools have windows clients. Cfengine included, so there, nyahh nyahh |
| 18:14.38 | rhowe | I still say that what I really want is an authenticated DHCP :) |
| 18:14.52 | itsbruce | I have often thought that |
| 18:14.56 | rhowe | That way, I could do totally unattended Debian installs |
| 18:15.45 | morsing | rhowe: Why not? |
| 18:16.27 | rhowe | morsing: 'cause work runs stuff that's tied to SQL server, and they use Citrix for remote access to MS Word. There are ways around it, but we have bigger fish to fry, IT-wise |
| 18:16.58 | rhowe | morsing: On top of that, they're now in the process of buying a timesheet system which runs on ASP.NET :/ |
| 18:17.07 | morsing | rhowe: I thought you were leaving that job? |
| 18:17.57 | morsing | Stupid BOR write failures |
| 18:18.33 | rhowe | morsing: Hrm, no immediate plans to |
| 18:18.54 | rhowe | morsing: Still want to fix up a few things before I go |
| 18:18.58 | morsing | You got promoted? |
| 18:19.05 | rhowe | morsing: Give it 6 months to a year :) |
| 18:19.13 | rhowe | heh, not a chance |
| 18:19.18 | rhowe | $boss'd have to move to Japan first |
| 18:19.23 | itsbruce | rhowe: I've been in that trap. You just have to give up on it |
| 18:19.24 | rhowe | (and therefore quit) |
| 18:19.46 | itsbruce | Because there are always things that need to be fixed before you go |
| 18:19.54 | rhowe | itsbruce: Well, currently it's a job I can have for literally as long as I want - decades, even. |
| 18:20.14 | rhowe | itsbruce: Well yes, but in this case my aim is to unload mod_php4 from apache on the web server |
| 18:20.18 | rhowe | itsbruce: Almost there |
| 18:20.34 | rhowe | And to get hylafax running, which my boss seems incapable of doing |
| 18:20.44 | rhowe | (zetafax on Windows is the biggest waste of space I've ever ever seen) |
| 18:20.59 | itsbruce | It's painful, indeed |
| 18:21.06 | rhowe | We're on v7.0 |
| 18:21.17 | rhowe | Or maybe it's 7.1 after patching.. not sure |
| 18:21.34 | rhowe | Anyway, the SMTP server crashes *immediately* after starting |
| 18:21.46 | rhowe | occasionally it manages to pass a fax to the mail server, but only rarely |
| 18:22.14 | rhowe | Since we've dumped Exchange, SMTP is the only delivery method available |
| 18:22.20 | morsing | Good |
| 18:22.35 | rhowe | I could probably write a perl script to do a better job of the Zetafax SMTP server, actually.. |
| 18:22.37 | itsbruce | Always glad to hear of a triumph over Exchange. |
| 18:22.46 | rhowe | hmm... maybe worth refreshing my knowledge of perl |
| 18:23.37 | rhowe | I'm pretty sure it's just a case of extracting the email address from a file filled with stuff, attaching a file to a blank email with possibly a date, and sending it out via SMTP |
| 18:23.52 | rhowe | Or we could just divert faxes to a paper fax machine |
| 18:24.37 | rhowe | We have a brooktrout fax board. Don't know whether to junk it or pay out for the commercial hylafax brooktrout support (I think it's by a company called ifax) |
| 18:26.50 | rhowe | itsbruce: I was suprised, btw, that debconf can get configuration info from LDAP - looks interesting :) |
| 18:26.55 | morsing | Would anyone be interested in ordering some Soekris? |
| 18:27.12 | rhowe | morsing: Yes, but not until next month :P |
| 18:27.25 | rhowe | (or, to be precise, FOSDEM) |
| 18:27.30 | rhowe | Since payday is the 25th |
| 18:28.45 | morsing | Okay, maybe we could find some more people who wants one |
| 18:29.02 | rhowe | Can you wait until the 25th? |
| 18:29.25 | morsing | Of course |
| 18:29.39 | rhowe | OK |
| 18:30.02 | morsing | There's a Danish company importing them |
| 18:30.09 | itsbruce | I am also interested. Want to use one as a home gateway and run openbsd on it |
| 18:30.23 | itsbruce | Morsing: there's a german company too. Does good rates |
| 18:30.58 | morsing | rhowe: was anything mysteriously added to your package? |
| 18:31.01 | rhowe | Yeah, the Danish one seemed to be of the opinion that US$1 = GBP 1, ISTR |
| 18:31.13 | rhowe | morsing: How do you mean? |
| 18:33.05 | itsbruce | And there's also a Belgian company, gives all the proceeds to OpenBSD. How do these rates compare? http://soekris.kd85.com/ |
| 18:33.40 | morsing | rhowe: taxes by the gov |
| 18:34.15 | rhowe | morsing: Oh no - I used their free US ground shipping to get it to our NYC office, and then they fedexed it to me from there, billing it to one of our clients (you didn't hear me say that :) |
| 18:35.05 | rhowe | itsbruce: Hrm. IIRC I looked at kd85 last time... lemme see |
| 18:35.35 | rhowe | It's hard to beat the dollar exchange rate, especially when it's free shipping. Since we're paying for shipping this time, it might be worth using one of the European outfits |
| 18:35.50 | rhowe | ibot change eur 255 to usd |
| 18:35.59 | rhowe | ibot change 255 eur to usd |
| 18:36.02 | itsbruce | A quick look seems to indicate that kd85 thing 1 euro = 1 dollar, which is almost correct |
| 18:36.31 | rhowe | ibot change 1 usd to eur |
| 18:37.07 | itsbruce | ibot change 160 eur to usd |
| 18:38.01 | rhowe | net4801 board and case is US$249 in the US, and US$327 from kd85 - That's a $75 price hike, which I can't see being absorbed by delivery |
| 18:38.19 | itsbruce | No. |
| 18:38.28 | rhowe | 13" x 10" x 3" box, weighs 3 to 6 lbs. Can fit 1-2 net4501 or net4511 with case and power supply, or 2 net4521 units with case only. USD 35-50 |
| 18:38.49 | rhowe | Although that doesn't include VAT ;) |
| 18:39.03 | *** join/#gllug irm (~chatzilla@82-43-93-7.cable.ubr08.croy.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 18:39.23 | rhowe | ibot 249 * 1.175 |
| 18:39.24 | ibot | 292.575 |
| 18:39.26 | itsbruce | And Soekris offer volume discounts, also |
| 18:39.53 | rhowe | Yes, but unless you're really talking about volumes, it's negligable |
| 18:40.13 | rhowe | Might just cover shipping costs |
| 18:40.24 | itsbruce | Cortex offer significantly better prices than kd85, now that I check |
| 18:40.36 | rhowe | Also, I doubt we'd all be ordering the same models... |
| 18:41.34 | rhowe | ibot change 199 eur to usd |
| 18:41.44 | rhowe | That's more like it |
| 18:42.19 | morsing | I'll be going to DK in March |
| 18:42.44 | morsing | rhowe: Only one model looked interesting to me |
| 18:42.54 | morsing | All the others were very small |
| 18:43.08 | rhowe | morsing: net4801? |
| 18:43.15 | morsing | Yes |
| 18:43.17 | morsing | -50 |
| 18:43.23 | rhowe | Yup |
| 18:43.33 | rhowe | That's what I'm IRCing through |
| 18:45.22 | morsing | Hang on! Soekris is *danish* I didn't know that :-) |
| 18:46.06 | rhowe | haha |
| 18:48.16 | morsing | Can I get a graphics adapter for it? |
| 18:48.27 | rhowe | It has a PCI slot, yes |
| 18:48.41 | rhowe | People have made thin clients out of them, for example |
| 18:49.49 | itsbruce | Hmm. Would there be a chance to grab these things while actually in Belgium? |
| 18:49.50 | morsing | That's what I was thinking. It does PXE booting as well? I need two then |
| 18:50.11 | rhowe | I'm reading about PoE, quite interesting |
| 18:50.30 | rhowe | No need for a PSU if I get a power over ethernet box |
| 18:50.31 | morsing | PoE? |
| 18:50.37 | morsing | ?!? |
| 18:50.45 | itsbruce | We use PXE for our application servers |
| 18:50.50 | rhowe | www.poweroverethernet.com |
| 18:51.25 | rhowe | When it says that the Soekris supports PoE, I can't really tell if it means that it supplies power to its cables, or whether it can be powered from the cables, though :) |
| 18:51.31 | rhowe | I suspect the latter, but I dunno |
| 18:51.31 | morsing | Why are CF cards killed by read and writes? |
| 18:51.40 | itsbruce | rhowe: it's the latter |
| 18:52.08 | rhowe | morsing: They degrade. After some number of write, erase, write cycles, they stop working |
| 18:52.10 | itsbruce | morsing: The technology only allows a certain number of changes. After that it just wears out. More expensive ones last longer |
| 18:52.34 | morsing | What?!? Why wasn't I told about this when I bought one? |
| 18:52.43 | morsing | I want my money back |
| 18:53.06 | itsbruce | USB key disks have exactly the same problem. This is why most sensible OSen cache all writes to a USB key disk and only flush them at unmount. |
| 18:53.58 | rhowe | This is also why we have jffs2, a filesystem which is designed to work well on flash devices and minimise wear |
| 18:54.19 | morsing | jfs2 or jffs2? |
| 18:54.28 | rhowe | jffs2 |
| 18:54.28 | itsbruce | Unfortunately, the disk is likely to fail midway through a write, so when a disk wears out it is likely to be corrupted. |
| 18:54.34 | rhowe | Journalled flash file system |
| 18:54.48 | morsing | Journalling it would write even more... |
| 18:55.04 | itsbruce | No, not if you cache all the updates |
| 18:55.22 | morsing | But then it's not journalling and doesn't make sense |
| 18:55.37 | morsing | Well, maybe it is... |
| 18:55.50 | itsbruce | Well, you don't cache them all but you can sequence them and do them in the fewest number of bursts |
| 18:56.27 | itsbruce | And it is journalled, just more prone to lose data. But the journal means it's easier to recover if there is a failure mid-write |
| 18:56.59 | rdancer | #openbsd: ``we are secure, we are secure, we are secure, ...'' -- ``isn't a ftp install a bit insecure, given that the archives are not signed or anything?'' -- ``stfu you troll!@$#%; we are secure, ...'' |
| 18:57.10 | rhowe | Hm, wouldn't it be nice if Soekris were at FOSDEM? :) |
| 18:57.31 | *** join/#gllug Eeyore (~Eeyore@82-35-40-151.cable.ubr02.camd.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 18:57.55 | itsbruce | In practice, with a soekris box you would want to boot to a ram disk if at all possible. It's most suitable for routers, for that reason |
| 18:58.11 | itsbruce | That way you only updat the flash disk when you want to do a config change. |
| 18:58.40 | Eeyore | If i have a machine running hardware RAID1 and i'm running out of disk space is it easy to move the stuff to an identical machine running RAID1 with bigger disks installed? Or is there any easy way to upgrade the disks inplace? |
| 18:58.47 | rhowe | Yeah, ideally, but I don't yet know how much of that 128M I'll be using - probably not too much |
| 18:59.17 | Eeyore | i've used ghost before to move to a machine with bigger disks but i'm not entirely sure how/if it handles raid |
| 18:59.25 | itsbruce | Eeyore: did you put LVM on top of the raid? |
| 18:59.33 | Eeyore | very unlikely |
| 18:59.36 | Eeyore | redhat 7.3 |
| 18:59.53 | itsbruce | Oh, is this software raid? |
| 18:59.55 | Eeyore | LKM is some recent software thing isn't it? |
| 19:00.01 | Eeyore | KVM |
| 19:00.03 | Eeyore | damn |
| 19:00.04 | Eeyore | LVM |
| 19:00.17 | Eeyore | no it's hardware, does hardware usually support LVM? |
| 19:00.20 | itsbruce | LVM isn't exactly recent. Been stable for a long time, now |
| 19:00.34 | itsbruce | If it's hardware, then Ghost won't even be aware of the RAID |
| 19:00.38 | morsing | LVM and HW has nothing to do with eachother |
| 19:00.58 | Eeyore | So if ghost doesn't know it raid it might work? |
| 19:00.58 | morsing | Mmm... pizza |
| 19:01.10 | Eeyore | i don't think LVM was in redhat 7.3 |
| 19:01.10 | morsing | It will work |
| 19:01.10 | itsbruce | Sure it'll work. Ghost will just see a disk |
| 19:01.22 | rhowe | morsing: I'm also looking at putting a small order in with aria soon for little bits and pieces. If you've anything you want, and fancy splitting the delivery, let me know |
| 19:01.30 | itsbruce | Eeyore: No, it wasn't. Isn't in RHEL either. Pile of crap. |
| 19:01.55 | rhowe | morsing: I'm only after cables, fans and cable converters. Not worth spending a tenner on delivery just for those |
| 19:02.03 | Eeyore | It's in FC3 it's running on this machine now with LVM on software raid1, not sure what it does though. |
| 19:02.37 | itsbruce | LVM = Logical volume management. It lets you forget about where your physical partitions are. |
| 19:03.08 | Eeyore | I'm not sure i ever knew where my physical partitions were, what does that mean in practice? |
| 19:03.23 | itsbruce | Erm, I'm not sure if I have the stamina for this |
| 19:03.41 | Eeyore | sorry, it's not that important only of academic interest |
| 19:03.46 | Eeyore | i may try ghosting |
| 19:04.57 | rhowe | Try reading |
| 19:04.58 | morsing | rhowe: What's the address? I don't know what they're selling |
| 19:05.08 | rhowe | morsing: www.aria.co.uk - general PC bits |
| 19:05.25 | Eeyore | it's a shame none of these raid systems let you just add disks for extra space. |
| 19:05.26 | rhowe | morsing: Will probably place the order in the coming week |
| 19:05.33 | Eeyore | like a dynamic raid5 reconfiguration. |
| 19:05.41 | rhowe | Eeyore: You mean, like LVM? :PO |
| 19:05.49 | Eeyore | ah! so thats what it can do! |
| 19:06.00 | Eeyore | handy |
| 19:08.37 | rdancer | can i scroll the terminal output on the ss5's openbootprompt? |
| 19:08.41 | rdancer | *how |
| 19:09.29 | eye69 | Evening. |
| 19:09.30 | morsing | Can LVM add space to a RAID5? |
| 19:09.32 | morsing | Evening |
| 19:09.33 | Eeyore | Though i presume LVM sits on top of raid and is unaware of it, so it's not quite the same thing |
| 19:09.39 | morsing | How's sweeeden? |
| 19:09.43 | Eeyore | not from what i've read so far |
| 19:09.57 | morsing | LVM is not RAID |
| 19:09.58 | eye69 | It's alright. Munching crisps. |
| 19:10.06 | Eeyore | you could add another raid group and place it within the same LVM but i don't think you could use it extend a RAID |
| 19:10.14 | morsing | It manages logical volumes but people are confused by it |
| 19:10.34 | eye69 | Some RAID controllers can extend existing arrays. |
| 19:10.53 | Eeyore | shame i configured it in raid 1 |
| 19:10.57 | morsing | I don't understand why people use RAID |
| 19:11.10 | eye69 | morsing: Data security? |
| 19:11.19 | Eeyore | urrm, you it provides protection from failing disks? |
| 19:11.22 | morsing | Like mirroring? |
| 19:11.35 | stephen | mirroring is RAID level 1 |
| 19:11.35 | itsbruce | Like |
| 19:11.37 | morsing | Doing it in hardware is not even better |
| 19:11.45 | eye69 | Yes, RAID1, RAID10/01, RAID5... |
| 19:11.50 | itsbruce | There are advantages to hardware raid |
| 19:11.53 | Eeyore | yes or raid 5 which allows any single to disk to fail and gives you space = size *disks-1 |
| 19:12.01 | morsing | stephen: Not really. Technically RAID is a term for the hardware |
| 19:12.27 | stephen | well, in the abstract, RAID 1 mirrors two disks |
| 19:12.28 | morsing | Eeyore: Software is much more flexible than that |
| 19:12.36 | itsbruce | morsing: Stephen is right, mirroring is RAID 1 |
| 19:12.41 | eye69 | RAID0 should be called AID, not RAID. |
| 19:12.50 | morsing | Yes, but RAID is hardware |
| 19:12.56 | Eeyore | software raid is quite crap really |
| 19:13.06 | morsing | Eeyore: No it's not |
| 19:13.08 | Eeyore | it's ok but requires manual intervention |
| 19:13.16 | Eeyore | u can't just hotswap disks. |
| 19:13.43 | morsing | How come all the biggest and most proffesional server don't use hw raid but sw mirroring only? |
| 19:13.44 | itsbruce | morsing: software raid is also hardware, the difference is where the management is done |
| 19:14.01 | Eeyore | and i think the machine has to be down whilst it reimages a new disk |
| 19:14.08 | itsbruce | And there is absolutely nothing in the RAID spec to say where the management should be done |
| 19:14.13 | Eeyore | sure |
| 19:14.17 | morsing | Eeyore: You're now specifically talking Linux! |
| 19:14.23 | Eeyore | I just mean in practice |
| 19:14.40 | morsing | In practice Linux probably |
| 19:14.44 | itsbruce | Hardware raid offeres the advantage that it is available when the OS is down |
| 19:14.57 | morsing | Yeah that's handy! |
| 19:15.05 | itsbruce | Eeyore would have a harder time copying the data from one software box to another |
| 19:15.09 | eye69 | Eeyore: No. |
| 19:15.12 | Eeyore | i'm not talking theoretically. I just mean in practice i haven't seen reliable hotswappable software RAID that just works transparently. |
| 19:15.32 | morsing | Have you worked with AIX, HP-UX and Solaris? |
| 19:15.37 | Eeyore | No. |
| 19:15.41 | Eeyore | I am talking linux |
| 19:15.55 | morsing | This is why Linux can't compete with proper servers |
| 19:15.59 | Eeyore | i thought SPARCS had hardware raid |
| 19:16.13 | morsing | Not the entry and midrange boxes |
| 19:16.17 | Eeyore | and also the IBM servers, i thought they all used hardware too |
| 19:16.21 | Eeyore | the ones i've used have |
| 19:16.30 | morsing | IBM servers never use hardware RAID |
| 19:16.41 | itsbruce | morsing: Hang on, if the high-end boxes use hardware raid, doesn't that make it more respectable? ;) |
| 19:16.43 | Eeyore | i have 4 netfinity servers with hardware raid |
| 19:17.06 | Eeyore | so that clearly isn't true |
| 19:17.18 | morsing | I've worked with more than 200 IBM servers in four different companies prices going up to #2000000 and none have used hw raid |
| 19:17.31 | morsing | Eeyore: I'm not talking small PCs |
| 19:18.20 | Eeyore | Ok anyway, i'm sure your right, all the hardware i use is low end el-cheapo stuff and the reliable kit uses hardware raid. |
| 19:18.56 | itsbruce | Morsing: sorry, but IBM do offer hardware raid controllers on some of their P-Series boxes, I know that |
| 19:19.14 | morsing | I know they do but I've never heard of anyone using them |
| 19:19.27 | itsbruce | Well, it's a big world in the IBM user space |
| 19:19.32 | Eeyore | as a software developer i'm sure that software raid is much better if the hardware is capable of handling hot swapping and what not |
| 19:19.42 | morsing | And they are optional |
| 19:20.02 | eye69 | morsing: Most servers I've worked on have had proper hardware RAID. |
| 19:20.11 | morsing | PCs? |
| 19:20.21 | eye69 | x86 kit, yes. |
| 19:20.52 | morsing | I wonder if it's the low reliability of PCs that makes them ship with hw raid |
| 19:20.58 | Eeyore | when you say software raid are you sure it's not just software GUI for hardware raid interaction. |
| 19:21.08 | morsing | Mmm... beer |
| 19:21.18 | itsbruce | And to nitpick, saying "Everybody does it this way" isn't necessarily an argument. Look at RAID5, for example. Used by default by many people even though it often isn't appropriate |
| 19:21.56 | Eeyore | I use it when i want redundancy and bigger space that 1 disc. Is that appropriate? |
| 19:22.27 | itsbruce | RAID 5 can fuck up in a way that makes the contents of the entire array unrecoverable |
| 19:22.43 | itsbruce | Now, I have some food to cook |
| 19:22.43 | Eeyore | Is that likely? |
| 19:22.57 | Eeyore | whats the alternative? |
| 19:23.09 | Eeyore | cos i've had raid 5 disks fail and it seems quite handy |
| 19:23.33 | itsbruce | RAID 10 or 01, for example. But the main thing is, don't treat RAID as if it eliminates the need for backups or data replication |
| 19:23.55 | itsbruce | If you have live databases on RAID, whatever level, make sure you're replicating the data elsewhere |
| 19:24.48 | Eeyore | oh yes of course |
| 19:24.50 | eye69 | Of course not. RAID is so that you don't have to go through the necessary downtime for restoring backups if a disk fails. |
| 19:25.07 | Eeyore | you have to backup anyway, the data center could get by a comet. |
| 19:25.18 | Eeyore | hit by |
| 19:25.19 | itsbruce | eye69: You know that and I know that but it's surprising how many people think otherwise |
| 19:25.58 | Eeyore | i think postgresql replication is still somewhat in infancy but we take overnight dumps. |
| 19:26.06 | eye69 | RAID wont protect against stupid admins, stupid users, failed filesystems, programs failing and deleting data etc... |
| 19:26.21 | eye69 | Eeyore: Are you doing failover with that? |
| 19:26.29 | itsbruce | Eeyore: Slony looks cool and has some features that Mysql replication does not |
| 19:26.57 | Eeyore | No, it's not a critical system. we do failover on "critical systems" eg, ones that people scream about if they go down |
| 19:27.01 | Eeyore | they still go down of course |
| 19:27.28 | Eeyore | failover pairs like to fail at the same time. |
| 19:27.34 | Eeyore | cos often they have the same bugs. |
| 19:27.38 | itsbruce | Database failover still interrupts services, it just makes recovery quicker. If you want real HA, you really need active-active clustering |
| 19:28.28 | Eeyore | we run a version of heartbeat for a failover pair that has a memory leak. I nearly had a heart attack when i realised it was written in python. |
| 19:28.30 | itsbruce | And the only open source db that does that credibly is Ingres. |
| 19:28.58 | Eeyore | i remember ingres from uni |
| 19:29.13 | Eeyore | whenever we had a database assignment it fell over. |
| 19:29.27 | itsbruce | That may say more about the local admins than anything else |
| 19:29.30 | Eeyore | not entirely true |
| 19:29.36 | Eeyore | ground to a halt |
| 19:29.42 | evangineer | Eeyore: was the heartbeat written in pure python or did it use a C extension? |
| 19:29.46 | itsbruce | Or the local network and resources |
| 19:29.57 | Eeyore | it says "running assignments on shared machines is stupid" |
| 19:30.24 | Eeyore | I didn't dig that closely, currently trying to upgrade but having issues with other bits and pieces. |
| 19:31.03 | itsbruce | Eeyore: would you rather do the prep on isolated kit and then find it doesn't work when you bring it in? |
| 19:31.18 | morsing | Did you all remember to buy your ticket? The draw is happening now |
| 19:31.47 | Eeyore | itsbruce: what are you talking about? the machine running out of diskspace or the failover-pair with a memory leak? |
| 19:32.03 | Eeyore | PS: anyone want to swap jobs ;) |
| 19:33.51 | Eeyore | oh the ingres assignments at uni. |
| 19:33.58 | Eeyore | i haven't thought about that for a long time |
| 19:34.07 | Eeyore | i decided RDBMS suck. |
| 19:34.51 | Eeyore | Possibly a neccessary evil in many cases. |
| 19:35.16 | Eeyore | My SQL lecturer wasn't up to much either. |
| 19:45.14 | Cope | evening |
| 19:46.19 | itsbruce | Ah, now, nothing at all wrong with RDBMS or SQL. Plenty wrong with some of the implementations |
| 19:54.36 | Eeyore | I'm from a heavily OO background and many people try to use RDBMS for storing model data that fits in memory |
| 19:54.56 | Eeyore | it's fine for massive databases and complex generic queries |
| 19:59.36 | Eeyore | thanks for the advice anyway, ghost is worth a try. |
| 20:13.48 | Cope | ibot 7.5 * 14 |
| 20:13.49 | ibot | 105 |
| 21:08.33 | itsbruce | Meh. Peter Childs. |
| 21:34.30 | *** join/#gllug ikea (ikea@ruggigt.hemlig.net) |
| 21:43.39 | *** join/#gllug irm (~chatzilla@82-43-93-7.cable.ubr08.croy.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 21:45.05 | Eeyore | Peter Childs |
| 21:45.12 | Eeyore | I saw his name on a mailing list |
| 21:45.48 | Eeyore | Just in case he was the same person who went to my University, i avoided going to the last meet just in case. |
| 21:45.58 | Cope | lol |
| 21:46.47 | Cope | he's easy to spot - his spelling, typing and grammar are dreadful (although he may be dyslexic) |
| 21:47.10 | Eeyore | He is dyslexic |
| 21:47.31 | Eeyore | we had this thread on the local uni newsgroups. |
| 21:48.07 | Cope | in which case I am glad that I never said anything on the list. |
| 21:48.27 | Eeyore | The problem is that a lot of people are tollerant people that like to be inclusive and treat otherwise as they want to be treated. |
| 21:48.44 | itsbruce | Dyslexia doesn't make you stupid. |
| 21:49.01 | itsbruce | It also doesn't make you incoherent. |
| 21:49.23 | Cope | clearly not - one of my best friends is dyslexic, and also fiercely intelligent and an excellent programmer. |
| 21:49.24 | Eeyore | and when these people walk into a room and want to throw themselves out of a window 2 minutes into a conversation - they become troubled and confused. |
| 21:49.51 | Eeyore | this is the problem people often encountered with a certain person. |
| 21:50.01 | itsbruce | Cope: so it is possible to think Peter Childs a twat and not be a bigot |
| 21:50.14 | Cope | itsbruce: absolutely :) |
| 21:50.21 | Eeyore | You see. |
| 21:50.27 | Jango | yea i also some insanely intelligent dyslexics |
| 21:50.56 | Eeyore | one of our lecturers walked into the classroom one day (he was my fav lecturer actually) |
| 21:51.26 | itsbruce | Just once? I can see why you liked him |
| 21:51.27 | Eeyore | he unfolded a small paper airoplane on his desk without really thinking he read it |
| 21:51.49 | Eeyore | then he looked up and said "who's peter childs?" |
| 21:51.55 | Cope | Eeyore: trouble with peter is he frequently says thinks that are just plain rubbish, or not thought through - which gets grating after more than a few times. |
| 21:51.55 | Eeyore | we glance nervously at peter. |
| 21:52.09 | Eeyore | he continues "because apparently he's a twat". |
| 21:52.16 | Cope | lol! |
| 21:52.40 | Eeyore | You see, it was very harsh. But i just couldn't help laughing so much i nearly pissed my pants. |
| 21:52.59 | Jango | which uni? |
| 21:53.03 | Eeyore | Kent |
| 21:53.22 | Eeyore | or Canterbury as it was then known. |
| 21:53.30 | Jango | hmm, you still there? |
| 21:53.44 | Eeyore | No, that was about 5-7 years ago |
| 21:53.50 | Cope | -2? |
| 21:53.54 | Jango | ah ok |
| 21:54.10 | Jango | i think Cope deserves a slap for that :) |
| 21:55.05 | Eeyore | I wanted someone to volunteer to help me at this charity migrating to linux, but i had a nightmare that i went to the LUG meeting and peter volunteered. |
| 21:55.21 | Eeyore | I even started running through excuses in my head. |
| 21:55.51 | itsbruce | It's easier to ask the question in a room where you know where he is, and make sure he's out of earshot, than on list without him reading it |
| 21:56.12 | Eeyore | and that was even before i read the latest emails on the mailing list pretty much confirming it was the same peter childs |
| 21:56.24 | Eeyore | probably |
| 21:56.36 | itsbruce | Either that or the name is a curse |
| 21:57.40 | Eeyore | that reminds me |
| 21:58.06 | Eeyore | has anyone got an NT based client to connect to a Samba domain controller? |
| 21:58.31 | itsbruce | NT, no. 2k and XP, yes. |
| 21:58.40 | Eeyore | yes 2k |
| 21:58.46 | Eeyore | it requires a username# login? |
| 21:58.51 | Eeyore | that 98 didn't |
| 21:59.05 | Eeyore | i think the # refers to a machine account. |
| 21:59.19 | itsbruce | You don't *have* to |
| 21:59.23 | Eeyore | so it seems to require 2 accounts? |
| 21:59.43 | Eeyore | i get something along the lines of unable to authenticate user# in the samba log |
| 21:59.54 | itsbruce | Only if you want to join the domain. You can treat it as just a workgroup and then you only need one account |
| 22:00.01 | Eeyore | and the client complains of a problem with a the domain controller or password |
| 22:00.22 | Eeyore | it is the primary domain controller |
| 22:00.23 | Eeyore | or will be |
| 22:00.47 | itsbruce | In order to get an NT/2k box joining a samba domain, you have to log in to the windows box as a local administrator... |
| 22:00.49 | Eeyore | I wonder if there is a way to tell samba to create machine accounts automatically or |
| 22:01.11 | Eeyore | yes, i can do that. |
| 22:01.41 | Eeyore | i can also see the stuff on the machine by doing the normal \\samba-server |
| 22:01.43 | itsbruce | Then join the domain using a samba account with root-level priveleges on the samba box. In that case, a properly configured samba set-up will create the machine accounts automatically |
| 22:01.56 | Eeyore | ah ha |
| 22:02.10 | itsbruce | Because the NT box requests it when you join the domain. |
| 22:02.29 | itsbruce | Do be aware that this will not make existing accounts on the windows box part of the samba domain. |
| 22:03.10 | itsbruce | But you will then be able to log into the windows box as anybody who has an account on the samba domain |
| 22:03.24 | Eeyore | that sounds like what i am looking for cheers. |
| 22:03.39 | Eeyore | hopefully samba will put the stuff into LDAP for me |
| 22:03.55 | Eeyore | i tried entering the details into LDAP but i had issues due to my lack of ldap skills |
| 22:04.09 | Eeyore | largely i think i created a # account with the wrong case and couldn't delete it. |
| 22:04.58 | itsbruce | When I say "Then join.. using a samba account...", you just apply to join the domain (right-click on My Computer, Properties, network identification). Then, assuming the windows box finds the domain, you are prompted to give an administrative account/password for the samba domain |
| 22:05.47 | Eeyore | I see, as I was switching this linux box in to replace an NT domain controller i didn't do that bit as it was already configured. |
| 22:05.47 | itsbruce | Easiest thing is to give root a samba account but no samba share priveleges. That way, it can only be used for domain joining/leaving. |
| 22:06.04 | Eeyore | from what you say, it seems like if i was doing the thing from scratch it might have worked |
| 22:06.18 | Eeyore | cool |
| 22:06.19 | itsbruce | Ah. Now, replacing an NT domain controller effectively means creating a new domain. It's a painful migration |
| 22:06.44 | Eeyore | heh, do you have an email address i could have? |
| 22:06.51 | Eeyore | this could save me days |
| 22:06.52 | itsbruce | You have to make local copies of domain accounts, leave the domain, join the new domain, create matching accounts and copy the details back. |
| 22:07.40 | Eeyore | i'm not really migrating that properly, all accounts have been re-setup in samba(ldap backed) |
| 22:07.43 | itsbruce | This is necessary because NT domains have unique SIDs and all the security is tied to that |
| 22:07.57 | Eeyore | the only thing was i tried making the domain controller have the same name in the hope that client machines would just work. |
| 22:07.58 | itsbruce | Eeyore: aye, but you lose all the user preferences etc. |
| 22:08.07 | Eeyore | they aren't using roaming profiles |
| 22:08.11 | itsbruce | Not only does it not work, it causes problems |
| 22:08.54 | Eeyore | so if i name it differently, and do the admin login, and login to the samba drive as root using the right click properties thing then it might all work? |
| 22:09.13 | itsbruce | The nice thing with Samba and domains is that the domain UID is just a piece of configuration data, so you can easily replace a Samba domain controller by copying that file and the windows boxes are happy. |
| 22:09.32 | itsbruce | Which makes roaming profiles practical and safe-ish. |
| 22:09.47 | Eeyore | i'm not attempting roaming profiles, they aren't using them at the moment. |
| 22:10.20 | Eeyore | mainly it's there as a file server with automatic drive mappings/security for different groups. |
| 22:10.24 | itsbruce | Eeyore: sure. But you'll have to tell the windows boxes to leave their old domain first. They'll bitch about not being able to find the old domain |
| 22:10.35 | itsbruce | But they'll do it. |
| 22:10.51 | itsbruce | If you do them all at once, then you can keep the old name as they'll have forgotten about it. |
| 22:10.54 | Eeyore | which has also been a pain due to lack of ACL, i'm switching the security groups based. |
| 22:11.14 | itsbruce | Which version of Samba is it? |
| 22:11.33 | Eeyore | don't know, it's the one installed with SUSE professional. |
| 22:11.45 | Eeyore | please don't tell me it should be debian (not my choice anyway) |
| 22:11.57 | Eeyore | latest suse |
| 22:12.12 | itsbruce | That's irrelevant. It's just the version of Samba that matters. Hopefully it'll be 3.x |
| 22:12.19 | Eeyore | i would check now, but i don't have the access details to hand |
| 22:12.36 | Eeyore | when you say "all at once" what do you mean? |
| 22:12.37 | itsbruce | Seems it is, according to google |
| 22:12.44 | Eeyore | i think so yes. |
| 22:12.55 | Eeyore | brb |
| 22:13.33 | itsbruce | I mean that if you get all the workstations to leave the domain, then put the samba replacement in, then get them to join the new domain, they won't notice that the new domain has the same name as the old one. |
| 22:14.32 | itsbruce | But if you're trying to get these boxes to leave a domain and they try and they find a box that claims to be that domain and then it has the wrong SID, they'll be unhappy. |
| 22:14.48 | itsbruce | Mind you, you can just disconnect them from the network while you get them to leave the domain. |
| 22:14.56 | Cope | itsbruce: sounds like you've played with this a lot :) |
| 22:15.16 | itsbruce | I spent a long time hitting windows workstations over the head. Painful. |
| 22:17.51 | itsbruce | Windows security model is one of the things that makes the boxes so hard to maintain |
| 22:20.31 | itsbruce | For example, if you are doing roaming profiles then they are stored on a domain controller. But as an administrator you have no rights to see the contents of those profiles. |
| 22:21.07 | itsbruce | Which means you can't even see how much disk space they are using and you certainly can't move them if you are running out of space. |
| 22:22.54 | Cope | not a great design |
| 22:23.39 | itsbruce | Well, it is from the point of view of a paranoid CEO who doesn't want his admins to see his documents. |
| 22:23.52 | itsbruce | And Microsoft happens to have one of those. |
| 22:25.12 | ar | can you not force the perms so that the admin can look at the profile? |
| 22:25.40 | itsbruce | ar: Only by taking ownership of the files, which breaks things. |
| 22:26.21 | ar | ah |
| 22:27.13 | itsbruce | There are ways around it, but you have to have them in place before you start using roaming profiles. And they aren't reliable. |
| 22:27.32 | itsbruce | It makes backups a sod, also |
| 22:27.49 | itsbruce | Much nicer to have it all on Samba, if you're going to do it. |
| 22:37.45 | Cope | goodnight all - see you tomorrow. |
| 22:46.52 | Eeyore | probably at some point the machines will all be switched to linux at which point we won't even need samba, but realisticlly it's taken my about 9 weeks to not complete the samba migration so they will be running with windows clients for some time... |
| 22:47.17 | Eeyore | also i've got migrate exchange next. |
| 22:48.35 | Eeyore | 9 weeks = 9 days as i only work saturday, and i've had networing issues and dodgy broadcom adaptor to deal with |
| 22:48.54 | Eeyore | plus 1 day wasted working out where the port filtering rules were on win2k business edition. |
| 22:49.12 | Eeyore | so i'm not as incapable as it sounds... |
| 22:49.17 | Eeyore | well not quite. |
| 23:50.43 | Leeds | evening all |
| 23:51.37 | Jango | sup |
| 23:51.52 | Leeds | I've got about 12 hours... |
| 23:52.05 | Jango | i've got about 12 seconds |
| 23:52.20 | Jango | just wondering why i'm getting mail from work on a saturday |
| 23:56.13 | Leeds | I've had no work mail for about 24 hours |