| 01:16.57 | *** join/#gllug harkness (~Zander@xwlmb6.harkness.co.uk) |
| 01:53.35 | *** join/#gllug pawel_ (~pawel@client-82-2-116-58.brnt.adsl.virgin.net) |
| 07:27.16 | *** join/#gllug laomao (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 07:33.00 | *** join/#gllug morsing (~morsing@80.46.110.1) |
| 07:43.17 | *** join/#gllug laomao (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 08:00.42 | morsing | 'morning |
| 08:01.34 | *** join/#gllug murb (~Wm@p54A9EABC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:02.50 | *** join/#gllug laomao (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 08:08.50 | mozrat | morning morsing |
| 08:50.00 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 08:54.09 | mozrat | Morning Leedsmonster |
| 08:54.22 | Leeds | hey ho |
| 09:02.13 | morsing | morning Leeds |
| 09:02.29 | Leeds | morning morsing |
| 09:34.45 | *** join/#gllug floo (~gary@host-84-9-71-174.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 09:35.31 | floo | mion |
| 09:35.39 | floo | moin even |
| 09:36.05 | mozrat | mion floo |
| 09:36.13 | floo | hee hee |
| 09:36.21 | floo | howzit going? |
| 09:36.38 | mozrat | not so bad thank |
| 09:36.40 | mozrat | you? |
| 09:36.52 | floo | ru@work? |
| 09:36.58 | mozrat | aye |
| 09:37.01 | floo | fine |
| 09:37.02 | mozrat | in Paddington |
| 09:37.18 | floo | I start at 1pm |
| 09:37.30 | mozrat | where do you work? |
| 09:37.43 | floo | I'm a teacher -- freelance |
| 09:37.59 | floo | am preparing for today's lessons |
| 09:38.40 | Leeds | ah, work... I remember when... etc. |
| 09:38.54 | Leeds | morning floo |
| 09:39.01 | mozrat | Leeds, you are now a man of leisure |
| 09:39.04 | floo | what do u do then? |
| 09:39.10 | floo | moornign leeds |
| 09:39.12 | Leeds | morsing: for a short time, yes |
| 09:39.19 | floo | sorry i din't get to fosdem |
| 09:39.31 | mozrat | floo, network admin/project type work |
| 09:39.52 | floo | ooohhh -- inpresive |
| 09:39.55 | mozrat | Today I shall be known as '500 Internal Server Error' man |
| 09:40.05 | floo | sounds good |
| 09:40.10 | mozrat | Yesterday I was known as 'Install Squid server man' |
| 09:40.13 | mozrat | I preferred yesterday |
| 09:40.25 | floo | I think i do too |
| 09:40.35 | floo | leeds how was fosdem? |
| 09:40.56 | Leeds | morsing: so, Budapest? :-) |
| 09:41.07 | Leeds | floo: was fun :-) |
| 09:41.13 | Leeds | cold... |
| 09:41.19 | floo | same here |
| 09:41.21 | mozrat | Leeds, me? |
| 09:41.26 | floo | good gllug turnout |
| 09:41.29 | floo | ? |
| 09:41.37 | Leeds | mozrat: huh? |
| 09:42.04 | Leeds | floo: that there was - enough that a non-gllug person commented to me on the number of people there from London? |
| 09:42.18 | floo | fab! |
| 09:42.26 | mozrat | Leeds, you said 'morsing: for a short time ,yes' which was aimed at me and then 'morsing: so, Budapest? :-)' which I'm not sure about |
| 09:42.28 | floo | I'm sure you all did us proud |
| 09:42.52 | Leeds | mozrat: they were addressed correctly :-) |
| 09:42.59 | mozrat | Leeds, both? |
| 09:43.07 | Leeds | yes |
| 09:43.09 | floo | Leeds: ru going to the meet on the 12th? |
| 09:43.17 | Leeds | floo: no |
| 09:43.20 | mozrat | Leeds, they can't have been |
| 09:43.23 | floo | shame |
| 09:43.23 | Leeds | I'll be in Israel |
| 09:43.26 | Leeds | mozrat: why not? |
| 09:43.34 | floo | ah ... fair enuf |
| 09:43.43 | floo | family stuff? |
| 09:43.53 | Leeds | floo: I do intend to be at Lonix this week :-) |
| 09:43.55 | mozrat | why would you say 'Morsing: for a short time, yes' in answer to morsing saying 'morning Leeds'? |
| 09:44.02 | Leeds | nope, holiday and job-hunting |
| 09:44.23 | eye69 | Morning. |
| 09:44.24 | Leeds | mozrat: okay, maybe that wasn't correct |
| 09:44.25 | floo | I'll cu @ Loniix then, fab! |
| 09:44.30 | mozrat | Leeds, :) |
| 09:44.57 | floo | Leeds: those cmments for morsing came to me too. theywere also addressed to mozrat |
| 09:45.19 | Leeds | floo: yes, i know... the first was to mozrat, the second to morsing |
| 09:45.27 | mozrat | leeds is a prankster.. he tries to confuse morsing and I |
| 09:45.34 | floo | ok |
| 09:45.43 | Leeds | mozrat: honest mistake today... must fix xchat |
| 09:45.43 | floo | is that allowed? |
| 09:46.10 | mozrat | Leeds just tries to tip me over the edge |
| 09:46.22 | floo | gonna disappear for 10 mins... cu all later |
| 09:49.20 | morsing | Leeds: Yes. June? |
| 09:49.29 | Leeds | morsing: possibly |
| 09:49.55 | morsing | Or is that unwise |
| 09:49.57 | morsing | ? |
| 09:50.45 | Leeds | unwise, but why not... |
| 09:51.12 | Leeds | anyway, looking at under ?50 for flights... |
| 09:51.41 | morsing | Hmm... Sent a text to boss that I wouldn't be in today but he hasn't responded |
| 09:52.03 | Leeds | maybe slightly more, depending on day of the week and source airport |
| 09:53.40 | Leeds | sms aren't guarenteed delivery |
| 10:01.44 | *** join/#gllug laomao (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 10:03.29 | morsing | milk |
| 10:10.27 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 10:15.55 | morsing | Mmm... Fry-up |
| 10:16.00 | morsing | Where's wethrin |
| 10:16.25 | edward | very angry. lost my oystercard on wednesday. reported it lost. bought a replacement oystercard on sunday. went to use it this morning. it is disabled. they think the replacement card is the one i reported lost |
| 10:16.42 | mozrat | an angry edward! |
| 10:17.07 | Leeds | morsing: are you suggesting you want to fry and eat wethrin? |
| 10:18.33 | edward | on the phone to oystercard now |
| 10:20.21 | *** join/#gllug Jang- (~Jango@pacemetrics.plus.com) |
| 10:21.25 | morsing | Mmm... |
| 10:24.30 | *** join/#gllug SlayerXP (~Mart@burningchrome.demon.co.uk) |
| 10:24.44 | Leeds | depending on the time of week, a life-threatening alcohol level |
| 10:39.13 | wethrin | Morning |
| 10:39.18 | wethrin | Who wants to fry me? |
| 10:39.34 | mozrat | Ooops, sssshhh |
| 10:41.36 | Leeds | just a drunk wethrin |
| 10:41.44 | wethrin | Okay |
| 10:41.51 | wethrin | Just because I slept longer than I wanted to! |
| 10:42.05 | Leeds | what, 36 hours? |
| 10:42.05 | wethrin | I spent the evening reinstalling FreeBSD and putting the new drives into my RAID system |
| 10:42.11 | wethrin | I was around yesterday! |
| 10:42.31 | wethrin | I set the initialisation going about 2230 last night, and I think it's about to finish soon |
| 10:42.45 | Leeds | good lord... is that freebsd or gentoo? |
| 10:43.05 | SlayerXP | wethrin: raid5? |
| 10:43.08 | wethrin | SlayerXP: Yes |
| 10:43.17 | wethrin | Leeds: 1.3TB of storage takes a long time to init |
| 10:43.19 | SlayerXP | you don't have to wait for it to finish, you know |
| 10:43.33 | wethrin | SlayerXP: It's not rebuilding, it's initialising |
| 10:43.43 | SlayerXP | yes, I can read :) |
| 10:44.00 | wethrin | vinum doesn't allow you to use it until it's all happy that it's initialised |
| 10:44.19 | SlayerXP | oh sorry, I assumed you were using modern tools |
| 10:44.28 | wethrin | You should know me better than that :-P |
| 10:44.38 | wethrin | What would you count as a modern tool? |
| 10:45.24 | SlayerXP | don't recall what its called |
| 10:45.39 | SlayerXP | but there's a non-viunum tool that's an analouge to software riad under linux |
| 10:45.43 | wethrin | Device Mapper? |
| 10:46.05 | SlayerXP | as with LSR and raid5, you can start using a volume immediately |
| 10:46.43 | wethrin | It doesn't need to zero the entire disk before being used? |
| 10:46.54 | wethrin | In fact, I'm not sure why vinum requires it. But it does. |
| 10:47.27 | SlayerXP | wethrin: nope |
| 10:47.53 | wethrin | Hm, fair enough |
| 10:48.10 | wethrin | It might have worked if I just told it to start up, I guess. But it's too late to play now |
| 10:48.29 | wethrin | Not that I have a problem with it going overnight - I'm not going to be putting data onto it at that point |
| 11:10.58 | morsing | SlayerXP: There's a tool called something like ccd? cdd? Is that the one you mean? |
| 11:11.50 | morsing | ccd it is |
| 11:12.14 | SlayerXP | yeah, sounds sright |
| 11:12.25 | SlayerXP | I avoided dealing with the freebsd boxes at yahoo as much as possible |
| 11:12.37 | wethrin | ccd is not vinum |
| 11:12.43 | wethrin | md is not lvm :) |
| 11:13.19 | morsing | vinum can't do anything |
| 11:13.30 | wethrin | It can do lots |
| 11:14.00 | morsing | wethrin: Which version of FBSD are you using? |
| 11:14.03 | wethrin | 5.3 |
| 11:14.15 | morsing | Good. I'll attempt and install today |
| 11:14.20 | morsing | s/and/an |
| 11:14.21 | *** join/#gllug itsbruce (~brichards@router-office.fotango.com) |
| 11:14.25 | wethrin | Good :) |
| 11:14.26 | morsing | Mmm... AIX |
| 11:14.33 | wethrin | Mmm....HP/UX |
| 11:14.51 | wethrin | Would you rather use OSF/1? |
| 11:14.52 | morsing | yay - Like rhowe? |
| 11:15.02 | wethrin | has itsbruce been drinking, then? |
| 11:15.23 | itsbruce | Did Russel drink too much at FOSDEM, then? |
| 11:15.33 | wethrin | Yes |
| 11:15.41 | morsing | wethrin: Why can't I download it for a DVD? |
| 11:15.53 | morsing | itsbruce: Very much too much! |
| 11:15.54 | wethrin | It's only the first CD that you need |
| 11:16.00 | morsing | Sure? |
| 11:16.02 | wethrin | Yeah |
| 11:16.09 | SlayerXP | yes, you'll be fed up of it long before the end of the first cd |
| 11:16.13 | wethrin | The packages themselves you'd need to get separately - the CD only comes with a few |
| 11:16.15 | *** join/#gllug mz2 (~mz@81-1-75-195.homechoice.co.uk) |
| 11:16.16 | morsing | What's the ftp url? |
| 11:16.41 | wethrin | Look on ftp.mirrorservices.org/pub/FreeBSD, or something like that |
| 11:16.43 | wethrin | Anyway. Coffee. |
| 11:16.47 | wethrin | back soonish |
| 11:22.13 | *** join/#gllug Cope (~sanelson@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 11:22.24 | morsing | Cope! |
| 11:22.33 | mozrat | Woo, Cope |
| 11:22.37 | Cope | morning all |
| 11:22.58 | itsbruce | You need to practice that throw |
| 11:23.04 | morsing | :-) |
| 11:23.27 | morsing | Yup |
| 11:24.03 | Cope | Work machine is now set up 'just-so' |
| 11:25.18 | itsbruce | Having ion+debian on a powerbook is probably some kind of perversion, though |
| 11:25.47 | SlayerXP | Ion is an ACAP server. what are you lot doing with it? |
| 11:26.01 | Cope | Morning SlayerXP |
| 11:27.30 | Cope | is there a better pdf reader than xpdf? Never used anything else, but I've not installed it yet. |
| 11:28.35 | itsbruce | I don't think so, other than the obvious proprietary alternative. |
| 11:29.13 | itsbruce | All the other good GUI ones just seem to be wrappers for xpdf, so don't do the core job any better |
| 11:39.50 | *** join/#gllug laomao (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 11:40.03 | *** join/#gllug pdr (~pdr@213.86.35.150) |
| 11:42.36 | Leeds | Cope: lwn did a round-up a few weeks back |
| 11:46.55 | Leeds | http://lwn.net/Articles/grumpy-editor/ |
| 11:53.49 | mozrat | GGV Postscript viewer isn't too bad |
| 12:02.53 | *** join/#gllug Ang`ill`Child (~angelic@exten-halls-245.soton.ac.uk) |
| 12:03.07 | *** join/#gllug highbury (~steve@81-1-66-112.homechoice.co.uk) |
| 12:03.23 | evangineer | still under the weather Ang`ill`Child |
| 12:03.29 | Ang`ill`Child | yes |
| 12:03.39 | Ang`ill`Child | but now i have a note from the doctor to prove it |
| 12:12.01 | Jang- | ah the good ol' doctors note |
| 12:22.08 | evangineer | hmm, so the pdf 1.6 spec supports aes encryption |
| 12:22.25 | evangineer | wonder if they've fixed the broken security model too |
| 12:22.55 | evangineer | if not, adding aes is a waste of time |
| 12:31.36 | Cope | evangineer: have you sent your application? |
| 12:32.59 | evangineer | Cope, did so last friday |
| 12:33.29 | edward | anybody go to the ruby london meeting last night? |
| 12:35.41 | pdr | no |
| 12:36.08 | pdr | very very cool stuff |
| 12:46.57 | itsbruce | To destroy Perl, obviously |
| 12:47.12 | itsbruce | Oh, I thought you meant the Ruby thing. |
| 12:47.58 | murb | CSIRO is a defence funded research agancy like DERA used to be? |
| 12:47.59 | Cope | ibot annodex |
| 12:57.12 | evangineer | funny how jobs ads are always claiming to be for the "leading" companies. |
| 13:24.50 | *** join/#gllug iftrouble (~iftrouble@213.155.143.30) |
| 13:25.04 | iftrouble | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:43.01 | *** join/#gllug itsbruce (~brichards@router-office.fotango.com) |
| 13:43.17 | pdr | murb: it's funded directly by government, not through the defense afaik |
| 13:43.57 | murb | pdr: Oh i assumed it was because they only wanted .auian citizens working for them, which normally means defense. |
| 13:44.11 | murb | atleast in the adverts i rember. |
| 13:46.38 | pdr | Our purpose: |
| 13:46.38 | pdr | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:46.47 | pdr | (http://www.csiro.au/index.asp?type=aboutCSIROIndex&stylesheet=aboutCSIROOurVision) |
| 13:49.02 | itsbruce | "By lighting a rocket under the arses of our staff..." |
| 13:50.22 | pdr | i've visited a few csiro sites and none of it seemed like it was anything to do with defense research. there are other organisations for that |
| 13:52.01 | murb | oh |
| 14:20.51 | rhowe | <@Shadur> Of course we're arrogant. We have a reason for it. We *ARE* better than you. |
| 14:21.01 | rhowe | <@Shadur> What's your excuse? |
| 14:22.53 | wethrin | :-) |
| 14:24.01 | wethrin | Cope: What's the story with the power situation? |
| 14:24.36 | Cope | no idea, I don't work for redbus. We didn't have any power problems today, so must be confined to them. |
| 14:24.46 | wethrin | Right |
| 14:24.57 | Cope | i did see a lot of people outside though |
| 14:25.06 | Cope | so that would be consistent with a fire alarm |
| 14:25.11 | wethrin | Mm... |
| 14:25.12 | Cope | or evacuation type thing |
| 14:25.26 | *** join/#gllug woman8076 (suzanne@83-216-146-103.suzann536.adsl.metronet.co.uk) |
| 14:25.50 | wethrin | Indeed |
| 14:25.52 | SlayerXP | it's not unusual to evacuate a large building during a power outage |
| 14:26.05 | Cope | be dah dah dah dah daah |
| 14:26.08 | itsbruce | I love that old Tom Jones song |
| 14:26.47 | wethrin | itsbruce: sure it's not just the women's knickers? :) |
| 14:27.50 | woman8076 | hello |
| 14:27.58 | wethrin | hi, FOSDEM-person |
| 14:28.28 | woman8076 | FOSDEM-newbie-person |
| 14:28.29 | murb | fosdem who? |
| 14:28.42 | wethrin | murb: Well, if you were at FOSDEM..... |
| 14:28.46 | woman8076 | Suzanne |
| 14:28.54 | murb | no, i was safly in germany. |
| 14:29.28 | wethrin | murb: You missed very drunk geeks, then |
| 14:29.39 | woman8076 | murb: I generally use #keble |
| 14:30.58 | *** join/#gllug murble (~murble@debian.home.boughton.org.uk) |
| 14:31.00 | woman8076 | so, anyone else here go to FOSDEM? |
| 14:31.08 | murble | oh, i generally don't use #gllug |
| 14:31.28 | murble | now i seem to be on it twice, help, what is wrong? |
| 14:31.31 | wethrin | woman8076: Leeds, morsing, rhowe, jonmasters, itsbruce |
| 14:31.38 | wethrin | And there may be one or two other lurkers |
| 14:31.40 | murble | wethrin: jonmasters is just a bot though. |
| 14:32.03 | wethrin | He's been rumoured to exist |
| 14:32.32 | murble | wethrin: well he is on #lbw with the same nick and hasn't said anything since August. |
| 14:32.36 | murble | yet he still joins. |
| 14:32.38 | wethrin | True |
| 14:32.46 | wethrin | He's said some things here once or twice |
| 14:32.51 | wethrin | woman8076: oh, and agk was there |
| 14:33.03 | woman8076 | can't remember faces for russell or bruce |
| 14:33.58 | wethrin | ah. |
| 14:34.13 | pdr | woman8076: that's possibly a good thing |
| 14:34.25 | wethrin | pdr: You should have been there |
| 14:34.53 | pdr | wethrin: Colt's Powergate (Acton) data centre suffered an outage today as well. i assume it was related to the Telehouse incident |
| 14:35.11 | murb | telehouse also had an incident? |
| 14:35.24 | murb | Hex certainly had a problem, twice, but that is Redbus. |
| 14:35.43 | itsbruce | I was the dashing bloke asking probing questions of Alan Cox et al. |
| 14:35.58 | woman8076 | no fighting over me, please |
| 14:36.06 | murb | not to be confused with the dasher bloke for DPL. |
| 14:36.09 | pdr | murb: smae building |
| 14:36.28 | murb | pdr: what is the same building as what? |
| 14:37.22 | woman8076 | what was Alan Cox talking about? |
| 14:37.26 | wethrin | Kernel |
| 14:37.29 | wethrin | Before agk's talk |
| 14:37.30 | pdr | wethrin: i wanted to go, but had too much planned for the weekend |
| 14:37.33 | itsbruce | Building a stable 2.6 kernel |
| 14:37.44 | itsbruce | Coping with the chaos coming down the pipe from Linus |
| 14:37.47 | wethrin | pdr: Bah. I bet FOSDEM was announced earlier :-P |
| 14:37.59 | woman8076 | I was in open BSD and then embedded then |
| 14:38.28 | itsbruce | Well, it's nice to know that *someone* got lucky |
| 14:39.15 | woman8076 | embedded tend to moan that the kernel doesn't work though |
| 14:39.44 | pdr | wethrin: i was also in the doghouse with belinda, so it was good that i stayed here to make amends, even though my other plans fell through anyway |
| 14:43.59 | Cope | is colt somewhere in hex |
| 14:44.08 | woman8076 | what time of day is this channel busy? |
| 14:45.06 | pdr | Cope: colt have data centres all around. there's one in prince's court in wapping and one in powegate in acton |
| 14:45.08 | Cope | have a look at the channel stats |
| 14:45.34 | pdr | woman8076: it's randomly busy. depends if there's anything interesting to talk about |
| 14:46.30 | pdr | Mmmm... network gadgets.. http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=35&scid=43&prid=640 |
| 14:47.26 | woman8076 | ah good, a stats page that works |
| 14:48.18 | Cope | pdr: one of my clients has suffered outages from redbus facility and also from colt stuff too. |
| 14:49.39 | woman8076 | why is it averaged over a long time? |
| 14:50.50 | Cope | what's the alternative? |
| 14:51.20 | evangineer | it's generally busier on weekdays during workhours than otherwise. |
| 14:51.27 | woman8076 | daily, where you request the stats for that day |
| 14:52.07 | woman8076 | then you can see if anyone is around on a sunday afternoon |
| 14:54.51 | woman8076 | you could also have seven pages, for each day, that are averaged |
| 14:56.29 | pdr | Cope: where do you work? |
| 14:56.41 | rhowe | pdr: Worldcom :P |
| 14:56.46 | pdr | ha! |
| 14:57.20 | pdr | i thought i saw huw at lunch today |
| 14:58.11 | Cope | pdr: MCI |
| 15:00.53 | murb | UUnot |
| 15:01.05 | wethrin | Cope: So how much would you charge me for hosting? :) |
| 15:01.27 | murble | wethrin: the question shoudlbe how much will he pay to not have you as a customer. |
| 15:01.45 | Cope | murble: no uunet have not been part of mci for some time |
| 15:01.59 | wethrin | murble: As long as they pay sufficiently for me to go elsewhere... : |
| 15:02.09 | Cope | wethrin: we don't do colo |
| 15:02.18 | Cope | wethrin: well mci do, but digex don't. |
| 15:03.02 | wethrin | Bah. And you can't sneak a machine into the datacentre? |
| 15:03.41 | woman8076 | Amusing photo of a young Jon Masters |
| 15:04.04 | Cope | pdr: telehouse haven't had a problem afaik - that's different from hex |
| 15:04.51 | pdr | Cope: ok; i thought they were in the same building tho |
| 15:05.17 | Cope | pdr: no; I can see telehouse from here, but its 20 mins walk |
| 15:05.34 | pdr | fair enough |
| 15:06.19 | murble | wethrin: you mean underfloor colo? |
| 15:09.31 | wethrin | murble: Yeah |
| 15:28.35 | murb | Cope: netbooting is nicer still. |
| 15:29.11 | murb | most new machines with onboard network support PXE |
| 15:30.29 | *** join/#gllug pawel (~pawel@client-82-2-85-220.mant.adsl.virgin.net) |
| 15:38.07 | Cope | indeed |
| 15:42.23 | Jang- | so, what's the 8076 in the nick mean? |
| 15:42.37 | itsbruce | We use pxe a lot. Application servers syncing down from a master image and then personalised, all configured from one xml file. |
| 15:43.08 | itsbruce | Since we mostly use blades, it makes adding in new production servers or repurposing old ones very easy |
| 15:45.05 | morsing | Mmm... |
| 15:45.09 | woman8076 | jang: incredibly obscure :?) |
| 15:45.35 | morsing | Which CD do I need if I can take as much as possible off the Internet |
| 15:46.19 | wethrin | Umm... |
| 15:46.23 | Jang- | i assume you are london-based, woman8076? i wonder how many computer-literate suzannes there are in london |
| 15:46.30 | Jang- | i used to know one at ucl |
| 15:46.30 | itsbruce | For Debian? |
| 15:46.40 | wethrin | morsing: I'd recommend something with Shostakovich |
| 15:46.47 | morsing | Mmm... |
| 15:47.02 | woman8076 | Oxford, I know Dan (wethrin) and met some other people at FOSDEM |
| 15:47.28 | Jang- | shostakovich rocks |
| 15:47.31 | wethrin | morsing: Unless you mean for a specific OS? |
| 15:47.36 | morsing | FBSD |
| 15:47.56 | wethrin | Get the miniinst ISO |
| 15:47.57 | morsing | there's a miniinst and a bootonly |
| 15:47.57 | wethrin | 200MB |
| 15:48.01 | wethrin | Oh |
| 15:48.05 | wethrin | Bootonly, then |
| 15:48.11 | wethrin | miniinst contains the entire base system |
| 15:48.26 | itsbruce | FreeBSD is too easy to install. Go for openbsd and a return to stone age installation tools. |
| 15:48.40 | Jang- | minix! |
| 15:48.56 | wethrin | itsbruce: I find OpenBSD to be the easiest of all to install |
| 15:49.02 | *** join/#gllug Ang`ill`Child (~angelic@exten-halls-245.soton.ac.uk) |
| 15:49.06 | wethrin | It just goes straight through the install with no faffing |
| 15:49.59 | itsbruce | Easy and simple are not the same thing. |
| 15:50.36 | itsbruce | The old Debian installer is just straight through if you happen to know that hitting return in all places will get you the defaults |
| 15:50.39 | wethrin | No, but in this specific case they are |
| 15:51.05 | wethrin | Open does give you sufficient information that someone with general clue will know what they're doing |
| 15:51.09 | itsbruce | But that doesn't make it easy, because there are plenty of places where you would not know that unless you had previous experience. |
| 15:51.46 | itsbruce | Wethrin: I would disagree. You would also have to had read the documentation, which nobody ever does, and (even more unreasonably) read it carefully ;) |
| 15:52.26 | itsbruce | The openbsd installer will not be a problem for somebody who reasonably skilled *and* already familiar with generic BSD concepts |
| 15:52.49 | wethrin | Which are also familiar from any non-Linux Unix |
| 15:53.00 | wethrin | itsbruce: I see no problem with making people RTFM |
| 15:53.14 | itsbruce | Sure, but I'm just saying. |
| 15:53.50 | wethrin | Well, it weeds out the weenies who should be sticking with Mandrake :) |
| 15:53.58 | itsbruce | And even if you do read the installer guide, that wouldn't necessarily help you with disklabel, which is not really covered. In fact the installer faq is a little misleading on the subject |
| 15:54.51 | wethrin | You could just say "Use the entire disk for OpenBSD", and it works nicely |
| 15:55.02 | itsbruce | If you just step through the idiot guide and do what you're told at each step, you'll get through but not know what happened |
| 15:55.02 | Cope | openbsd is very very easy to install |
| 15:55.52 | itsbruce | There's that semantic confusion again. "Easy" is subjective and contextual. "Simple" is not. |
| 15:55.52 | Cope | with minimal assistance, my friend with no unix experience at all but some common sense and an abilty to read installed it and had it running as a router in an afternoon |
| 15:56.33 | Cope | i can't think of a context in why easy doesn't mean 'not difficult' - or am I misunderstanding you? |
| 15:57.37 | itsbruce | OK, your friend found it easy because s/he had a simple goal in mind and could just go with the recommended defaults. So the demands were fewer. |
| 15:57.37 | Cope | with the exception of bsd fdisk, which is arcane to people used to pretty tools, its simple as well as easy. |
| 15:57.50 | itsbruce | Ah, you get ahead of me... |
| 15:57.54 | Cope | :) |
| 15:58.24 | itsbruce | See, somebody with more *nix experience might decide to do something different than the idiot-guide and then run smack into fdisk and disklabel. |
| 15:58.53 | Cope | well that's what openbsd installer does do - you have to opt out |
| 15:59.04 | itsbruce | Then they would learn but it's kind of an "learning not to run into an iron bar again because it was painful" kind of learning. |
| 15:59.12 | Cope | anyway - he had an account on my box, and read the manual |
| 15:59.14 | Cope | so he was ok |
| 16:00.34 | Cope | i would further say that one of the least capable people who work here, who had struggled with a redhat install(!) was able to install openbsd and get it running exactly as he pleased; and is now a convert to openbsd. |
| 16:01.33 | itsbruce | I would say that points more to his personality and particular aptitudes than any comparison of the virtues of the two. |
| 16:01.51 | Cope | heh - i was just typing exactly that |
| 16:02.22 | Cope | goodness 4pm already! |
| 16:02.26 | wethrin | It is |
| 16:02.27 | itsbruce | See, if Openbsd were Linux, somebody would have renamed disklabel to fslice (which is what it does) and have it talk about slices and not partitions |
| 16:02.47 | itsbruce | Because that's confusing since the manual makes quite clear that slices are not partitions |
| 16:02.48 | wethrin | disklabel does talk about slices, does it not? |
| 16:02.57 | itsbruce | No, not on openbsd it doesn't. |
| 16:03.02 | wethrin | Oh |
| 16:03.12 | wethrin | Well, I haven't done an install for over a year now |
| 16:05.19 | itsbruce | There are three reasons that the openbsd installer is as it is. One is that the core developers have been using it for so long that they have no idea of or interest in what it looks like to a beginner... |
| 16:05.58 | itsbruce | Another is that they see no problem with discouraging the lower portion of the bell curve, so to speak... |
| 16:06.04 | evangineer | heh |
| 16:06.14 | wethrin | Indeed. And I agree with that |
| 16:06.47 | itsbruce | And the clincher is that they don't rewrite code that doesn't need it because they want to keep it manageable by a small team. |
| 16:06.55 | evangineer | theo's lack of tolerance for those who don't rtfm is legendary |
| 16:07.06 | wethrin | Theo actually seems to be a very nice person |
| 16:07.52 | evangineer | I'm sure he is, but that doesn't stop him from reaching for the flamethrower from time to time. |
| 16:08.02 | wethrin | Everyone does |
| 16:08.14 | wethrin | Even our very own SlayerXP does that on Gllug from time to time :-) |
| 16:12.36 | SlayerXP | me? |
| 16:12.42 | SlayerXP | i think you have me confused with someone else |
| 16:13.23 | itsbruce | When Theo did his acceptance talk at FOSDEM, I was impressed by how often and how generously he mentioned Linux |
| 16:13.37 | Cope | did he win something? |
| 16:13.48 | itsbruce | Then I realised that he was quite deliberately not saying GNU/Linux and making RMS wince each time |
| 16:14.25 | itsbruce | Cope: http://www.fsf.org/news/fsaward2004.html |
| 16:14.40 | wethrin | Cope: BEER |
| 16:14.52 | Cope | wethrin: I don't drink beer anymore. |
| 16:15.11 | itsbruce | You inject it? |
| 16:15.13 | rhowe | wethrin: I think my illness on the train was more 'flu than extended hangover :/ |
| 16:15.18 | wethrin | rhowe: Ah :-/ |
| 16:15.22 | rhowe | My whole body feels.. um.. ill |
| 16:15.37 | wethrin | Oh. Sleep for 2 days |
| 16:15.53 | Cope | hmm |
| 16:15.55 | Cope | brb |
| 16:16.03 | itsbruce | rhowe: me bullying you into doing a GLLUG talk about Soekris was not a drunken dream and you can expect more of the same |
| 16:16.12 | rhowe | itsbruce: Yeah, I know :) |
| 16:16.35 | rhowe | itsbruce: Still need to set those up actually. CF cards require purchasing. |
| 16:16.41 | *** join/#gllug Cope (~sanelson@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 16:16.43 | wethrin | wb |
| 16:17.23 | Cope | itsbruce: could i have that link again? |
| 16:17.32 | woman8076 | sleep good, though I didn't get much last night, delays at Calais |
| 16:17.42 | wethrin | ick |
| 16:17.44 | itsbruce | http://www.fsf.org/news/fsaward2004.html |
| 16:17.47 | rhowe | If anyone has any small CF cards (128Mb or so) that are too small for things like MP3 storage, let me know. I#'ll pay something foer them |
| 16:17.48 | Cope | thanks |
| 16:18.03 | Leeds | rhowe: I've got a selection... |
| 16:18.44 | rhowe | Leeds: I thought someone might. I suspect cards around 128M are considered too small to be especially useful now you can get 1G for ~40 quid |
| 16:19.34 | Leeds | I've got 8MB, 16MB, 256Mb and 340MB (microdrive) to hand, but I should have at least one or two others around |
| 16:19.41 | itsbruce | rhowe: You going to build your live fs in ram, to preserve the life of the disks? |
| 16:20.30 | evangineer | Ang`ill`Child, which live cd's have you tried? the likes of mepis and kanotix are pretty good at hardware detection and configuration. |
| 16:20.45 | rhowe | o.O Raj mathur was on the selection committee? |
| 16:20.51 | rhowe | I chat to him in #linux on Undernet :P |
| 16:20.52 | Leeds | and an 80MB |
| 16:20.54 | rhowe | itsbruce: Yes. |
| 16:21.11 | Ang`ill`Child | evangineer: I don't tend to use liveCDs but the latest versions of mandrake, ubuntu, etc, seem to have trouble |
| 16:21.32 | rhowe | Leeds: hrm, 80 and 256 are potentially of interest. Need to check on the BSD distro built for Soekris boards. See how small it is |
| 16:21.59 | Leeds | rhowe: would you need more than one? |
| 16:22.00 | rhowe | itsbruce: Or at least have such things as /var and /tmp in RAM. Don't want to use too much RAM for holding an fs image |
| 16:22.10 | evangineer | Ang`ill`Child, a useful dodge is to get a x config file generated by a live cd and use that with your installed distro. |
| 16:22.14 | rhowe | Leeds: Two, but they needn't be from the same person |
| 16:22.48 | Leeds | rhowe: was thinking more that there'd be very little point *not* using the 256 :-) so the question is really whether the 80 is useful to you |
| 16:22.54 | Ang`ill`Child | evangineer: intriguign idea, I shall have to try that |
| 16:23.21 | evangineer | Ang`ill`Child, live cds are worth having in the tool box for all sorts of reasons. |
| 16:23.31 | rhowe | Leeds: If the BSD distro-for-soekris is small enough to fit on there, yes. I suspect it will be since it unpacks into 128M of RAM with room left to run processes |
| 16:23.58 | Ang`ill`Child | evangineer: I tend to use console livecds to fix things |
| 16:24.26 | evangineer | Ang`ill`Child, I've done that too |
| 16:25.08 | Leeds | rhowe: I also have 2 512s - one in my old camera, one in my ipaq... not sure if I'd want to dispose of them yet - even if I don't use the camera anymore having replaced it, I could just use both with the ipaq - which I don't use much, but should :-) |
| 16:26.35 | rhowe | Leeds: Nah. 512 is a bit overkill |
| 16:27.01 | rhowe | Leeds: Don't want to spend much on CF now I've spent what I have on the boxes |
| 16:27.25 | Leeds | well, if I had no use at all for it, better for you to have it than it rot in my old-kit stacks |
| 16:27.54 | Leeds | in terms of payment, I'd phrase it in pints (virtual, if not physical) not pounds... going to Lonix? :-) |
| 16:27.57 | woman8076 | rhowe: you're the guy who got system-on-chip boxes at FOSDEM? |
| 16:28.28 | Leeds | woman8076: you're not Jennifer... |
| 16:28.46 | woman8076 | evil Bluetooth |
| 16:29.29 | woman8076 | I'm Suzanne, trying to match faces/names/nicks |
| 16:29.35 | Leeds | yeah, I know :-) |
| 16:29.52 | woman8076 | you're ahead of me :?) |
| 16:30.38 | Leeds | try the /whois command |
| 16:31.08 | evangineer | hmm, apparently the job market is pretty strong at the moment. |
| 16:31.15 | pdr | indeed |
| 16:31.24 | pdr | i've heard the same |
| 16:31.28 | woman8076 | using it, but I can't remember names |
| 16:31.44 | woman8076 | whois doesn't support images |
| 16:31.50 | Leeds | well, I'm the one who was obsessed by Jennifer... |
| 16:32.07 | woman8076 | got that far, now |
| 16:32.18 | pdr | Leeds: jennifer? |
| 16:32.25 | woman8076 | did she follow you back to the UK? |
| 16:32.35 | evangineer | sent out a few cvs this afternoon and got two calls from agents very shortly thereafter. |
| 16:32.38 | Leeds | she followed me onto IRC! |
| 16:33.01 | pdr | evangineer: nice. |
| 16:33.02 | Leeds | pdr: no goss |
| 16:33.28 | rhowe | woman8076: Yes |
| 16:33.43 | pdr | woman8076: actually, ibot can help with descirptions of people |
| 16:33.50 | wethrin | ~rhowe |
| 16:33.51 | ibot | i heard rhowe is a fool, or now engaged to Miss Sarah Li, of Hong Kong fame, or a windows hater, or maybe just an Explorer hater |
| 16:34.13 | Leeds | evangineer: did I show you this? http://www.jobserve.com/W9221343F6CB58B79.job |
| 16:34.30 | pdr | ibot who is wethrin? |
| 16:34.31 | ibot | somebody said wethrin was bigger than a breadbox, unless said breadbox is > 5'11" long, or silly, or afraid that its time to correct how people use it's, or ha |
| 16:34.43 | Leeds | ibot morsing? |
| 16:34.44 | ibot | it has been said that morsing is a nice and very knowledgeable guy who often buys rounds of beer, or mozrat, or living in a virtual universe where AIX resembles Unix. |
| 16:34.48 | rhowe | Leeds: Going to Lonix if there is minimal risk of me cross-infecting people |
| 16:35.07 | Leeds | rhowe: so are you claiming something more than a bad Belgian hangover? |
| 16:35.10 | rhowe | Leeds: I think I might have 'flu, and it's not good to be around others when you're infected with an airborne virus |
| 16:35.13 | wethrin | rhowe: There's also a London.pm |
| 16:35.24 | Leeds | ah |
| 16:35.27 | rhowe | wethrin: heh, two events on the same day |
| 16:35.42 | wethrin | Yup |
| 16:35.44 | Leeds | well, /me was supplied with super flu-resistance power by the NHS a few months ago :-) |
| 16:35.49 | woman8076 | ah good, bots to talk to when it's quiet |
| 16:36.01 | woman8076 | does it respond to /msg? |
| 16:36.04 | wethrin | Yes |
| 16:36.13 | rhowe | Leeds: I said yes when work offered free 'flu jabs but was too lazy to go and be stabbed. There was a mistake. |
| 16:36.27 | Leeds | ibot tell woman8076 about itsbruce |
| 16:36.43 | Leeds | ibot itsbruse is well, it's bruce, innit? |
| 16:36.45 | ibot | okay, Leeds |
| 16:36.48 | Leeds | ibot itsbruce is well, it's bruce, innit? |
| 16:36.50 | ibot | okay, Leeds |
| 16:36.50 | Leeds | argh! |
| 16:37.04 | wethrin | ibot itsbruce |
| 16:37.05 | ibot | itsbruce is probably well, it's bruce, innit? |
| 16:37.05 | rhowe | Leeds: Also, I don't particularly want to sit around drinking cold drinks, so unless the pub does passable hot chocolate (not coffee, not in the evening, and not when I need fluids), I'm unlikely to be especially content |
| 16:37.07 | woman8076 | train the bot! |
| 16:37.31 | rhowe | woman8076: Are you the one who got Eurolines? |
| 16:37.40 | woman8076 | yes |
| 16:37.48 | rhowe | OK |
| 16:38.01 | itsbruce | ibot itsbruce is also partial to a nice, peaty single malt |
| 16:38.02 | ibot | itsbruce: okay |
| 16:38.11 | wethrin | Mmm. Whisky. |
| 16:38.14 | woman8076 | 3 hours wait at Calais last night. For the tunnel. For one inch of snow. |
| 16:38.30 | wethrin | single casks are still nicer :) |
| 16:38.58 | Leeds | ibot leeds is also unemployed |
| 16:38.59 | ibot | Leeds: okay |
| 16:39.01 | pdr | wethrin: cask wine?! |
| 16:39.02 | rhowe | woman8076: ugh. 40mins wait for us due to a points failure south of london |
| 16:39.07 | wethrin | pdr: No, whisky |
| 16:39.12 | pdr | oh |
| 16:39.32 | Leeds | rhowe: did you see my comment yesterday that I met someone I knew at a taxi office in Hendon who'd been on the same train? :-) |
| 16:39.38 | woman8076 | when we got close to London we were delayed again because rush hour had started |
| 16:39.40 | evangineer | Leeds, no you didn't show me it, but I did find it independently last week. |
| 16:40.20 | rhowe | Leeds: heh, no :) |
| 16:41.06 | evangineer | Leeds, it requires more Zope experience than I have right now. |
| 16:42.19 | Leeds | evangineer: oh yeah, me too... still interesting - and local to me :-) A couple of people pointed it out to me |
| 16:42.42 | Leeds | I don't know how local, but near a northern-branch northern line station is pretty near |
| 16:42.55 | evangineer | there seems to be a surprising amount of demand for plone skills right now |
| 16:43.05 | Leeds | I need to play with plone |
| 16:43.18 | Leeds | but first, I need to get a print spooler running |
| 16:43.19 | evangineer | seems that plone is getting traction |
| 16:44.24 | Leeds | hmm... lprng is pretty large |
| 16:44.42 | Leeds | 10MB tgzball |
| 16:44.54 | woman8076 | rhowe: have you tested both boxes yet? |
| 16:47.31 | rhowe | woman8076: Not yet. I've unpacked them and connected the PSUs to the back, btu not plugged them in |
| 16:48.04 | woman8076 | the little one doesn't have its usb or pcmcia ports connected |
| 16:48.14 | woman8076 | the big one works fine though |
| 16:48.43 | woman8076 | I met Mr Rolex during dinner on Sunday night |
| 16:50.19 | evangineer | Mr Rolex? is that like Mr Big? ;-) |
| 16:50.27 | woman8076 | got a screwdriver? |
| 16:51.00 | itsbruce | Ah, vodka. The workplace alcoholic's drink of choice. |
| 16:51.07 | woman8076 | there was a guy selling boxes at FOSDEM except half of them don't work |
| 16:51.36 | woman8076 | a large Belgian guy had discovered this by opening the box |
| 16:52.28 | woman8076 | he got a refund but scared the guy selling the systems |
| 16:52.36 | woman8076 | interesting story... |
| 16:53.10 | Leeds | woman8076: the peplink stuff? |
| 16:53.17 | woman8076 | yup |
| 16:53.32 | woman8076 | Mr peplink |
| 16:54.02 | woman8076 | got a business card but it's in the depths of my suitcase |
| 16:54.45 | itsbruce | Was that (Mr Scary, not Mr Peplink) the large guy with the hat, looked like the bastard offspring of Leeds and Evil Dave Cantrell? |
| 16:55.59 | woman8076 | don't know, Mr Peplink told the story and didn't know the guy |
| 16:57.47 | Leeds | hmm... March happened |
| 16:59.03 | evangineer | indeed |
| 16:59.13 | evangineer | happy mailman day |
| 16:59.13 | itsbruce | It's Mailman day |
| 16:59.19 | Leeds | yeah |
| 17:00.30 | pdr | depends on your timezone. it's already the 2nd for some of the mailing lists i'm on |
| 17:01.36 | evangineer | well this is #gllug so the assumed timezone is GMT |
| 17:01.48 | pdr | blah |
| 17:02.09 | pdr | it's already 5pm then |
| 17:03.30 | evangineer | never said anything otherwise |
| 17:04.40 | pdr | :-) |
| 17:07.36 | evangineer | is it me or is the title of this article a tad insulting http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3484816 |
| 17:08.54 | woman8076 | you need a bot that prints the title of the webpage after an url is posted |
| 17:09.07 | wethrin | Yes. What woman said |
| 17:09.55 | evangineer | hmm, I could run a supybot, but some people think that ibot is one bot too many as it is. |
| 17:10.24 | woman8076 | you have luddites here? |
| 17:10.52 | wethrin | One or two |
| 17:10.59 | itsbruce | Dipsy (bot on some irc.perl.org channels) has a nice featureset. |
| 17:11.37 | Leeds | one of the sun-internal bots has a tinyurl-like thing builtin, which is nice |
| 17:12.12 | evangineer | I know dipsy, prefer supybot as it's python, has loads of features and is quite hackable. |
| 17:15.16 | evangineer | anyway, the title of the article suggests that nobody else besides novell is doing a distro for grown-ups. |
| 17:15.41 | itsbruce | Ah, well, the author of Bot::BasicBot is sat four feet away from me |
| 17:15.51 | evangineer | of course, then you have to work out what "grown-ups" means in this context. |
| 17:16.01 | evangineer | itsbruce, you work with muttley? |
| 17:16.32 | *** join/#gllug mz2 (~mz@81-1-75-195.homechoice.co.uk) |
| 17:16.39 | itsbruce | It doesn't usually mean "people who need their hands held" ;) |
| 17:16.52 | itsbruce | evangineer: No, BasicBot is Tom Insam |
| 17:17.52 | *** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@ip68-10-214-228.hr.hr.cox.net) |
| 17:18.05 | wethrin | hey zach |
| 17:18.17 | zachary | ello wethrin |
| 17:18.23 | Leeds | evening zachary |
| 17:18.34 | itsbruce | Dipsy isn't written with Bot::BasicBot but a lot of London.pm (which means a lot of my colleagues) spend much of their spare time hacking at bots, as you obviously know |
| 17:18.35 | zachary | evening Leeds |
| 17:18.43 | zachary | How was FOSDEM? |
| 17:18.57 | wethrin | It was excellent |
| 17:19.10 | Leeds | fun, cold, slightly-beery |
| 17:20.37 | rhowe | mmmmmmmmm |
| 17:20.51 | rhowe | For the people who purchased Mary's chocolates, have you tried the one covered in brown powder? |
| 17:20.57 | wethrin | I haven't tried any yet |
| 17:20.59 | wethrin | Are they nice? |
| 17:21.10 | rhowe | Yes |
| 17:21.19 | evangineer | itsbruce, most folks who don't need their hands holding are running slackware, debian or one of the BSDs. They haven't been waiting for Novell to deliver the distro of their dreams. |
| 17:21.20 | wethrin | Worth the price? |
| 17:22.06 | SlayerXP | hmmm |
| 17:22.07 | SlayerXP | hungry |
| 17:22.21 | wethrin | SlayerXP: Get food |
| 17:22.25 | SlayerXP | steak and chip sfor me, I think |
| 17:22.51 | wethrin | Sounds good |
| 17:23.00 | Cope | is there an lsof incantation to see which processes are making use of /usr/bin/java? (ie this specific instance) |
| 17:23.02 | wethrin | I'm considering between chilli or spaghetti bolognese |
| 17:23.09 | wethrin | Cope: | grep |
| 17:23.28 | wethrin | Any suggestions? |
| 17:24.26 | Cope | yeah, cos I wouldn't have tried that, wethrin :-) |
| 17:24.35 | zachary | Chilli + curry powder, cornbread + dark ale |
| 17:24.37 | itsbruce | Linux GroupWise client? Ech |
| 17:24.45 | itsbruce | GroupWise is a bloody awful mail system |
| 17:25.11 | wethrin | zachary: Sounds good, although I've got chilli powder rather than curry |
| 17:25.44 | evangineer | itsbruce, what are your thoughts on netmail (the brand name for the newly open sourced hula project)? |
| 17:28.08 | zachary | wethrin, I've had a chili with curry if done right, it's very nice, esp. w/ honey. |
| 17:28.53 | wethrin | Mmmm..... |
| 17:29.04 | wethrin | I don't have any curry powder as such, so that makes it out |
| 17:29.45 | zachary | ok, add habinero tobasco! |
| 17:31.44 | George | blah |
| 17:31.56 | evangineer | maybe we should have a collection of favourite gllug recipes on the wiki?! ;-) |
| 17:32.41 | itsbruce | evangineer: Is that the one they bought from Netscape? |
| 17:32.54 | evangineer | itsbruce, no |
| 17:33.18 | evangineer | I think you're confusing it with redhat's purchase from netscape. |
| 17:33.54 | itsbruce | No, I'm not |
| 17:34.02 | wethrin | evangineer: Good idea! |
| 17:34.32 | zachary | need tea! brb |
| 17:34.55 | itsbruce | Netscape had their own, very standard unix-ish IMAP server and MTA. Novell bought it or at least a version they could run on Netware |
| 17:36.05 | itsbruce | Can't remember the name |
| 17:36.55 | evangineer | itsbruce, you may be right. I'm checking right now. |
| 17:37.22 | Leeds | *something* is enabled... the printer makes noises when I load the parport modules |
| 17:39.02 | itsbruce | I remember looking at it as an alternative to GroupWise, at a previous job. It looked OK but didn't have a sufficiently broad feature set for the job |
| 17:40.31 | itsbruce | Ah! NIMS, which became Novonyx, which became (tada!) Netmail |
| 17:40.55 | pdr | laters |
| 17:41.04 | evangineer | laters pdr |
| 17:41.37 | itsbruce | Now, I could swear that GroupWise bought NIMS from somebody else and I thought it was Netscape |
| 17:41.57 | evangineer | itsbruce, apparently redhat haven't decided what to the mail/calendar server from netscape http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/html/2005/02/ |
| 17:43.09 | evangineer | so the nims codebase is what netmail/hula is derived from and the netscape mail/calendar codebase is somewhat moribund for the time being. |
| 17:43.12 | rhowe | itsbruce: We're actually using Mozilla Calendar with WebDAV access to .ics files. It's working well enough for there to have been no complaints at all from ex-Exchange users |
| 17:44.53 | itsbruce | Well, I'm going to have a look at OpenGroupware, myself |
| 17:45.59 | itsbruce | Aha! Yes, Netmail is originally derived from Netscape's code. |
| 17:46.15 | evangineer | itsbruce, url? |
| 17:46.59 | itsbruce | http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:_WRhSjhT8xMJ:www.boerner.net/conferences/Conf_99/AAHE2K/pcmag_collaboration_articles.htm+novonyx+%22Netscape+mail+server%22&hl=en |
| 17:47.31 | itsbruce | "Finally, Netscape and Novell recently announced the joint formation of Novonyx, a company that will port SuiteSpot servers to NetWare." |
| 17:48.35 | itsbruce | When I was evaluating NIMS, it had only just changed its name and there were still Novonyx references all over the documentation |
| 17:49.27 | evangineer | ah, so novell and redhat have what are essentially forks of the same codebase? |
| 17:49.38 | itsbruce | Seems so |
| 17:50.22 | evangineer | redhat should open source theirs as hoop! ;-) |
| 17:50.30 | itsbruce | Heh ;) |
| 17:54.25 | evangineer | or maybe XHula in deference to jwz's hula-related rant on groupware. |
| 17:55.48 | itsbruce | I still say he's missing the point, there |
| 17:56.04 | evangineer | kindof |
| 17:58.25 | Leeds | I think I found the problem with my parport setup |
| 17:59.12 | evangineer | I can see where jwz is coming from and I can also see where the people who work in corporate it are coming from. |
| 17:59.25 | woman8076 | bye |
| 17:59.30 | *** part/#gllug woman8076 (suzanne@83-216-146-103.suzann536.adsl.metronet.co.uk) |
| 18:00.43 | Leeds | the problem is that I'd got that parport was generic and parport_pc was PC-specific, but not that lp was a separate driver sitting on the top of the stack |
| 18:01.14 | evangineer | itsbruce, basically jwz is talking about the difference between consumer-oriented apps and enterprise-oriented apps, if you will forgive the use of the e word. |
| 18:01.28 | itsbruce | evangineer: Sure, but the tools to build collaborative working from individual apps have actually been there for years and even most Geek IT companies don't get there |
| 18:02.06 | rhowe | Another redbus link (also sent to list) - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/01/redbus_user_power/ |
| 18:02.12 | evangineer | itsbruce, that's actually been on my mind a lot recently. I intend to do something about it. |
| 18:02.19 | itsbruce | Though in the geek companies it's usually less important. There's an argument to be made that good IT companies have poor internal systems |
| 18:02.40 | itsbruce | It's a sign that they spend more time working on the product than the office furniture |
| 18:03.13 | evangineer | yes, "the cobbler has no shoes" cliche. |
| 18:04.00 | rhowe | I know someone who works at Morgan Stanley doing C++ development. He says M-S is one of the largest software houses in the world :) |
| 18:04.18 | rhowe | There's something pretty messed up with that, I think |
| 18:04.37 | evangineer | rhowe, in my experience investment banks do outrageous amounts of in-house software development. |
| 18:05.07 | rhowe | evangineer: I guess almost all the company depends entirely on advanced high-reliability software, but still it seems silly |
| 18:05.29 | evangineer | they are also one of the industries most aggressively deploying linux |
| 18:05.34 | rhowe | evangineer: They have a logging API called mslog. It's overengineered to the point of stupidity (30-line configuration to log to the console...) |
| 18:07.02 | itsbruce | rhowe: ask Dean about the IBM article describing a 70 line script to change the hostname on a Linux box. |
| 18:08.06 | evangineer | rhowe, investment banks are also *really* anal about change control for obvious reasons. |
| 18:09.53 | rhowe | itsbruce: heh, well that's not too unreasonable, surely? Assuming it does stuff like checks the hostname gets a DNS response, that the hostname matches a sensible pattern, that the hostname falls within an appropriate domain, etc |
| 18:10.15 | rhowe | itsbruce: 20 lines would probably be nearer the mark, unless you were going to be anal and check that you could write to /etc etc :P |
| 18:10.39 | rhowe | (as opposed to hostname "$input" || echo Failed to set hostname. No idea why) |
| 18:11.15 | itsbruce | Oh, it's not the logic I'm talking about. It just gets him angry, which is always fun. |
| 18:11.32 | rhowe | heh |
| 18:11.51 | rhowe | I wonder what their init.d scripts are like :) |
| 18:12.09 | rhowe | Debian has some overcomplex ones IIRC |
| 18:12.24 | itsbruce | IBM are slowly edging towards preferring SuSE to Red Hat |
| 18:12.45 | rhowe | Hm, why am I still here. I need to go home and go to bed. ASAP |
| 18:12.51 | Leeds | rhowe: yes, do that |
| 18:12.57 | rhowe | With any luck I'll be bedridden tomorrow with no food in the house :/ |
| 18:13.10 | rhowe | (nor anybody else in) |
| 18:13.29 | itsbruce | Anybody want me to pass on a message? |
| 18:13.32 | evangineer | be sure to stop by $store to buy food on the way home, rhowe |
| 18:13.48 | rhowe | itsbruce: *cough**splutter**owmyeyes*? |
| 18:14.13 | rhowe | evangineer: Hrm, an option I suppose. Wonder what Sainsbury's local across the road has in their reduced-for-quick-death sectino |
| 18:14.27 | itsbruce | later |
| 18:16.53 | Leeds | hmm... the printer is vaguely working - enough that I know the driver is working... it's just a userspace configuration thing now |
| 18:18.27 | evangineer | so why lprng rather than cups or $printsubsystem? |
| 18:18.40 | Leeds | cups says it wants glibc 2.2 - I only have 2.1 |
| 18:18.52 | evangineer | fair enough. |
| 18:19.13 | Leeds | I know that at one point lprng was the great white hope... and I think it should be simpler than cups, in principle - less powerful, yes, but simpler |
| 18:19.51 | evangineer | last time I had to do printing type stuff, I think I used lprng myself. |
| 18:20.25 | Leeds | all I really need is to be able to print vaguely nice-looking stuff locally... network support would be nice, but I'm willing to print-to-file and transfer stuff manually |
| 18:21.20 | evangineer | istr, that lprng was recommended by the standard first email from pat. |
| 18:21.39 | Leeds | heh |
| 18:21.48 | rhowe | cups-pdf + Samba++ |
| 18:22.12 | rhowe | ok, I'm gfone |
| 18:22.19 | rhowe | damn glolves |
| 18:22.20 | evangineer | shop, home and bed young man! |
| 18:22.33 | Leeds | go already! |
| 18:30.05 | evangineer | itsbruce mentioned that IBM are moving towards preferring suse over redhat, this could be why http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/02-10-2005/0002991609&EDATE= |
| 18:30.35 | evangineer | ibm seems to be making a big push on ppc hardware. |
| 18:30.40 | Leeds | one way to look at it is just keeping multiple irons hot... |
| 18:31.16 | evangineer | that too, they don't want to create a new microsoft. |
| 18:31.17 | Leeds | another, more cynical way, is that IBM liked dealing with RedHat when IBM had the stronger hand, but it's in their interests to make sure that no one distro gains too much power, so they're playing the field a little |
| 18:35.30 | mozrat | Ummm, I have a strange Turkish person asking me out of the blue for my MSN address on Freenode |
| 18:35.56 | Leeds | do you *have* an MSN address? |
| 18:35.56 | evangineer | well dodgy! |
| 18:36.16 | mozrat | I do |
| 18:36.21 | mozrat | not that he/she would know that |
| 18:36.30 | evangineer | and of course there is no such thing as msn messenger spam |
| 18:36.40 | mozrat | <immortasinger> yes |
| 18:36.40 | mozrat | <immortasinger> you msn addres |
| 18:36.40 | mozrat | <mozrat> why? |
| 18:36.40 | mozrat | <immortasinger> plaese |
| 18:36.40 | mozrat | <mozrat> heh.. what for old chap |
| 18:36.41 | mozrat | <immortasinger> msn in chat wep cam open |
| 18:36.41 | Leeds | there's always the very simple "why should I tell you" or "why do you want to know" |
| 18:36.43 | mozrat | <mozrat> what is your name? |
| 18:37.04 | mozrat | names may have been changed to protect the innocent (they haven't) |
| 18:37.26 | Leeds | so you really are called mozrat? strange |
| 18:37.39 | mozrat | Leeds, blame my parents |
| 18:37.49 | mozrat | and you can talk being named after an entire city |
| 18:38.39 | Leeds | it's a great and ancient city |
| 18:38.44 | Leeds | you sound like a rodent |
| 18:38.55 | Leeds | nothing personal :-) |
| 18:39.17 | mozrat | no offence taken :) |
| 18:40.00 | Leeds | aslan hali seems to be a carpet-seller in Warwick, if that helps |
| 18:41.11 | mozrat | :) |
| 18:41.18 | mozrat | I think maybe he is genuine |
| 18:44.59 | Leeds | just not english good speaker |
| 18:45.08 | mozrat | yes |
| 18:46.35 | mozrat | <immortasinger> ý am turk popstar |
| 18:46.50 | Leeds | um |
| 18:48.59 | *** join/#gllug immortasinger (~aslanhali@dsl81-215-42032.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 18:49.07 | mozrat | umm |
| 18:49.10 | mozrat | hello |
| 18:49.12 | mozrat | :) |
| 18:49.14 | Leeds | um... hi |
| 18:49.24 | immortasinger | hi |
| 18:49.30 | immortasinger | everbody |
| 18:49.35 | mozrat | Everyone, this is immortasinger.. |
| 18:49.40 | mozrat | My newest friend!! |
| 18:49.47 | immortasinger | yes |
| 18:50.03 | immortasinger | msn addres immortalman@hotmail.com |
| 18:50.07 | immortasinger | to add |
| 18:51.00 | evangineer | Leeds, http://www.fsfe.org/ is built using plone but doesn't look like the typical plone site. |
| 18:51.31 | Leeds | evangineer: I've not even looked at plone enough to know what a typical site might look like :-) |
| 18:52.41 | evangineer | I've seen a lot of them that look pretty much like http://plone.org/ |
| 18:55.11 | mozrat | wow - Turkish popstars have crappy websites |
| 18:55.21 | mozrat | http://www.immortalman.tk/ |
| 18:55.25 | Leeds | right, time to see if an Israeli mobile number I have from 1998 still works |
| 19:09.10 | Leeds | apart from a change in the 'area code' which I got a message about, it worked, which is nice :-) |
| 19:13.57 | *** join/#gllug HomeCope (~laomao@82-69-220-158.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 19:15.08 | HomeCope | mozrat, have you been on the pull again? |
| 19:15.28 | Leeds | welcome welcome home homecope cope |
| 19:15.38 | HomeCope | :) |
| 19:16.00 | mozrat | HomeCope, jep |
| 19:16.47 | Leeds | excited is goof |
| 19:16.49 | Leeds | good! |
| 19:17.04 | HomeCope | i'm going to tabletennis tonight - and we have a robot! |
| 19:17.57 | Leeds | woo |
| 19:18.08 | Leeds | "<Spyro> it 99% works. only problem is it doesnt actually work" |
| 19:20.54 | Leeds | ah! there seems to be a LUG meeting in Jerusalem next week :-) |
| 19:21.56 | mozrat | HomeCope, can I place £5 on the robot winning? |
| 19:22.02 | HomeCope | lol |
| 19:22.18 | HomeCope | can i place a bet on mozrat winning the bet? |
| 19:22.28 | mozrat | You're on |
| 19:23.04 | Leeds | can I eat pizza? |
| 19:23.12 | mozrat | Leeds, no |
| 19:23.13 | HomeCope | if you like |
| 19:23.28 | HomeCope | but there's only one slice left, and that's for hui |
| 19:23.39 | HomeCope | hui++ |
| 19:23.59 | Leeds | I guess she deserves it |
| 19:24.49 | HomeCope | Leeds, what did you hear / learn at fosdem? |
| 19:25.38 | Leeds | HomeCope: not a huge amount, to be honest |
| 19:25.58 | Leeds | I really need to get myself out of my funk by this weekend |
| 19:26.11 | HomeCope | does that indicate the meteoric heights of your geekery and knowledge, or the low quality of speakers and seminars? |
| 19:26.31 | Leeds | hmm... there will be an Israel.pm meeting on Thursday, so I guess I'll be at Lonix instead |
| 19:26.43 | HomeCope | mmm lonix |
| 19:26.46 | Leeds | more of the former, combined with my lack of caring about anything |
| 19:27.25 | Leeds | ow, thanks |
| 19:27.28 | evangineer | Leeds, what sort of web apps would you like to build? |
| 19:27.55 | Leeds | evangineer: no idea... no idea if I even want to build web apps |
| 19:28.00 | evangineer | ah |
| 19:28.36 | Leeds | HomeCope: you own the cert? |
| 19:28.47 | HomeCope | not personally |
| 19:28.58 | Leeds | ah, okay |
| 19:29.03 | evangineer | Leeds, put it another way, what sort of python apps would you like to build? |
| 19:29.16 | HomeCope | when digex was formed they hosted some porn sites |
| 19:29.21 | HomeCope | aiui |
| 19:29.45 | HomeCope | mmm python :-) |
| 19:30.24 | Leeds | evangineer: again, dunno... to be honest, if I decide I want to do python (or have it 'forced' upon me), I don't think I'd be too bothered exactly what... as long as I wasn't expected to use windows as a deskto |
| 19:31.51 | Leeds | 'forced' meaning if it turns out that that is the most sensible, easiest, best-paying, etc. job type I can get |
| 19:31.52 | HomeCope | Leeds, heh. |
| 19:33.06 | Leeds | using windows as a desktop would upset me... using locked-down windows as a desktop would likely be a dealbreaker as far as taking a job |
| 19:33.32 | HomeCope | better forget any big companies then |
| 19:33.38 | Leeds | if I could, for example, heavily cygwin-ise it, that would possibly make it bearable |
| 19:34.07 | HomeCope | evangineer, how does python fit i? |
| 19:34.45 | Leeds | I know when I was looking at 3com, their policy was that everyone used groupwise (I think) so had to have a windows box... but you could get away with having a Linux box as well - and I'd imagine I'd vnc it nowadays |
| 19:34.47 | evangineer | I only mentioned python because I know Leeds likes it. |
| 19:35.44 | evangineer | that having been said python works for web apps and mobile/wireless apps (even runs on series 60 smartphones) |
| 19:36.44 | Leeds | evangineer: that fact being the one and only thing which could possibly persuade me to look at nokia |
| 19:37.58 | Leeds | hmm... I have never heard say that Zend is an Israeli company before now |
| 19:38.45 | Leeds | hate php... like Israeli tech companies... confusion |
| 19:38.55 | evangineer | Leeds, do you know about Zend's new tie up with IBM? |
| 19:39.32 | evangineer | and didn't mosix/openmosix originate in Israel? |
| 19:40.00 | Leeds | evangineer: that's where I saw it... I get a daily summary of news from the Israeli embassy in New York, including one item of tech/business news each day - just got today's mail, and the IBM/Zend tie-up was that bit of news :-) |
| 19:40.10 | Leeds | and yes, mosix is a technion thing originally AFAIK |
| 19:40.23 | Leeds | technion being the technical university in Haifa, in northern Israel |
| 19:40.45 | HomeCope | quite a lot of interesting stuff comes out of israel, technologically, despite it being so small |
| 19:40.59 | HomeCope | mmmm, sweet potato |
| 19:42.28 | Leeds | yup |
| 19:42.34 | Leeds | and no... not mmm... yuk |
| 19:53.37 | HomeCope | off to TT |
| 19:53.39 | HomeCope | bye bye |
| 19:53.55 | Leeds | argh, fucking perl |
| 20:11.04 | *** join/#gllug BobtheAvenger (Bob@host213-122-145-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 20:11.14 | BobtheAvenger | hey |
| 20:11.54 | Leeds | foo |
| 20:12.09 | BobtheAvenger | i pitty the foo' |
| 20:21.00 | edward | http://www.radiotimes.com/tv/now.html says "Sorry, your request cannot be fulfilled at the moment. Please come back and try again later." |
| 20:25.07 | *** join/#gllug Numz (~Numz@82-35-18-215.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 20:26.32 | Leeds | something else happenning on Thursday: http://cheerleader.yoz.com/archives/001926.html |
| 20:34.53 | *** join/#gllug iftrouble (~iftrouble@213.155.143.30) |
| 20:35.21 | evangineer | yoz is blogging again! |
| 20:35.32 | iftrouble | can anyone recommend me an app for debian similar to redhat's netconfig which does NOT depend on gnome/kde/webmin? a tool that does not require editing config files by hand! |
| 20:52.00 | *** join/#gllug morsing (~morsing@80.46.110.1) |
| 20:52.58 | iftrouble | vi /etc/network/interfaces sucks |
| 20:53.05 | iftrouble | dhclient sucks |
| 20:53.13 | iftrouble | netenv sucks |
| 20:54.20 | evangineer | iftrouble, what documentation have you read? |
| 20:54.38 | iftrouble | with fedora just worked too! (TM) but i had to sell my fedora PC because of hard times moneywise! |
| 20:55.24 | evangineer | and what distro are you running exactly? |
| 20:56.09 | iftrouble | debian |
| 20:56.24 | evangineer | what documentation have you read? |
| 20:56.39 | iftrouble | on a pc with 60 megs of ram! |
| 20:58.00 | iftrouble | fedora works (TM) no f***ing around with cryptic doc/man pages |
| 20:58.35 | morsing | fedora sucks |
| 20:59.06 | evangineer | yes, but you aren't running fedora now. debian expects you to read some docs and actually has decent documentation if you know where to look. |
| 20:59.13 | iftrouble | my girlfriend is supposed to be using the pc and shewants w2k back. yes w2k worked on 60 megs of ram! |
| 20:59.36 | morsing | Why don't you install w2k then? |
| 20:59.51 | iftrouble | good idea. thanks. bye |
| 20:59.53 | *** part/#gllug iftrouble (~iftrouble@213.155.143.30) |
| 20:59.57 | morsing | Yay! |
| 21:00.04 | evangineer | what an asshole |
| 21:00.15 | morsing | Where did he come from? |
| 21:00.37 | BobtheAvenger | who? |
| 21:00.37 | evangineer | I was going to point him to some good docs. |
| 21:00.58 | evangineer | iftrouble is the asshole in question. |
| 21:00.59 | morsing | I was going to point him to a hole in the ground |
| 21:01.23 | evangineer | he wanted things to be handed to him on a plate rather than do some homework. |
| 21:01.37 | evangineer | debian is the wrong distro for that sort of mentality. |
| 21:01.43 | BobtheAvenger | what was he on about? |
| 21:02.24 | evangineer | he obviously couldn't get the networking up and running |
| 21:03.32 | BobtheAvenger | ok |
| 21:21.19 | murble | anyone got an upto date virus scanner? and could look at http://www.yuri.org.uk/~murble/strange/cheque.zip ? |
| 21:21.36 | murble | so far neither sophos sweep nor clamav have a problem with it. |
| 21:36.36 | evangineer | murble, ask SlayerXP tomorrow. he does lots of scanning stuff. |
| 22:03.54 | George | blah, another 200GB hdd just failed on me |
| 22:13.01 | Leeds | because, yes, adding ham to a plate of fish and veg would be a very strange thing to do |
| 22:13.16 | murb | ham of turkey! |
| 22:13.27 | *** part/#gllug murb (~Wm@p54A9EABC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:13.38 | *** join/#gllug murb (~Wm@p54A9EABC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:13.40 | murb | urgle |
| 22:13.43 | murb | silly irc client |
| 22:13.47 | Leeds | ham of turkey? |
| 22:13.57 | murb | from munich airport, airsite cafe |
| 22:14.04 | Leeds | ah |
| 22:14.32 | murb | with a big pig head with a no entry thing arround it. |
| 22:14.38 | murb | this confused some americans in front of me. |
| 22:15.04 | Leeds | so completely different from the FOSDEM reference I was making... we went to a restaurant where they insisted on serving me ham with my cod after I'd explicitly asked for it without the ham |
| 22:15.28 | murb | would it normally have had ham? |
| 22:15.49 | murb | so they confused not wanting it as a request? |
| 22:28.59 | Leeds | they offered when I mad noises about everything on the menu having meat in it |
| 22:29.05 | Leeds | including the fish and pasta |
| 23:13.59 | Eeyore | well what a stessful day, i suppose on the plus side, we don't have machines at redbus. |
| 23:14.05 | Eeyore | every cloud has a silver lining |
| 23:23.44 | evangineer | whereabouts do you work Eeyore? |
| 23:25.13 | Eeyore | in a little internet company in n.london |
| 23:25.25 | Eeyore | doing live sportsbookie advertising |
| 23:25.55 | Eeyore | In computing everything seems to go wrong, but our hosting provider has been truly excellent |
| 23:26.28 | Eeyore | which is something to be thankful for atleast |
| 23:26.35 | Eeyore | I might send them an xmas card |
| 23:26.38 | Eeyore | this year |
| 23:27.35 | Eeyore | They did make a major booboo with our DNS once, but nothing connectivity related |
| 23:29.01 | Eeyore | what about you? |
| 23:32.11 | evangineer | enjoying copious free time, did send out some cvs today though and got a couple of calls back from agencies. |
| 23:32.57 | evangineer | things appear to be picking up |
| 23:35.08 | Eeyore | cool |
| 23:52.51 | Leeds | aaaahhhh... |
| 23:53.25 | Leeds | they gave Giles a happy ending :-) |
| 23:55.07 | Leeds | evangineer: just keep out of my way... nothing personal :-) |