irclog2html for #gllug on 20050929

04:08.16*** join/#gllug Cope-zh_ (n=sanelson@cpc2-ando2-4-0-cust168.sot3.cable.ntl.com)
05:00.45*** join/#gllug Leeds (n=richardc@202.82.163.139)
05:43.47new2unixmoin all
05:45.48Leedsafternoon
05:47.01new2unixTerra?
05:52.52*** join/#gllug formi (n=formi@82-35-232-163.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk)
05:52.54LeedsHong Kong
06:17.04*** join/#gllug morsing (n=morsing@emil.morsing.cc)
06:17.09morsing'morning Leeds
06:22.41Leedshey morsing
06:23.22morsingHow was lunch?
06:27.17Leedsuh, fine... why do you ask?
06:29.08Leedsyou really don't appreciate decent bandwidth until you've done without it for a few weeks...
06:29.15morsingWhat else am I supposed to ask at this time of the morning. Sorry
06:29.29morsingYou on a 14400?
06:31.41Leedswas on shared 128k in Sri Lanka for 3 weeks, with GPRS http-only out-of-hours
06:31.52Leedsnow on shared 4mbit (I think) :-)
06:35.14Leeds"wget http://www.hk.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.13.tar.bz2" - my standard speed test - gives a sustained 414KB/s
06:36.05Leedsoh, and apparently my HK visa is "basically approved" :-)
07:25.50mozratHey Leeds, morsing
07:25.59mozrathave a good trip back Leeds?
07:27.18Leedsnot bad... didn't sleep much, but read, played DS, watched Family Guy and Simpsons on the laptop... :-)
07:27.44mozrat:)
07:33.43mozratthat sounds good
07:34.20Leedsget paid a daily stipend for being in Sri Lanka... my total expenses for the month have come to less than the stipend total, so my actual paycheck is untouched
07:34.33mozratyou lived for free!
07:36.01Leedswhen I was in SL by myself, I paid for lunch (about $10-$12 per day) and for 'supermarket'-type stuff, while the housekeeper pays for 'market'-type stuff, and travel is covered - plus minimal other expenses because frankly there isn't much else to spend it on
07:36.12Leedswhen the cousins were there with me, they paid for lunch and supermarket
07:38.02Leedsand about the only expense I have in HK which applies when I'm not here is my mobile rental
07:39.31mozrator lack thereof
07:39.34mozratsee you later
07:40.03Leedsenjoy
07:52.33*** join/#gllug z00dax (n=z00dax@kbsingh.plus.com)
07:52.59Leedsafternoon z00dax
08:03.28morsingz00dax!
08:06.46Leedsdo outlook and outlook express do nntp, with threading and so forth?
08:58.14morsingIs snoop better than tcpdump?
08:58.47Copedunno how to measure it - I've used snoop a lot and found it to be very powerful.
08:59.04Copeis there something in particular you need to do?
08:59.27ErwinI usually use ethereal (or tcpdump -w + ethereal on another machine)
08:59.57Copethat's really excellent;
09:00.12morsingCope: I need to prove to my weird Solaris colleagues that snoop is stupid
09:00.26Copelol
09:00.37Copethen I guess you're asking the wrong person.
09:03.09LeedsI like tcpdump for simple stuff - most of the time when I'm in a position to use it ethereal is either not available or not appropriate
09:03.39Leedsoh, and will you all please make sure you're subscribing to LWN?
09:08.39morsingWhy?
09:08.50morsingSo what about iptrace vs. snoop then?
09:11.11*** join/#gllug kbsingh (n=kbsingh@nat1.lon1.uk.xinit.com)
09:11.45Leedswhy what?
09:20.55Leedsseems that some nice person has been trying a long list of possible usernames to ssh in with...
09:29.20*** join/#gllug wethrin (n=dankolb@ipv6.eco.li)
09:30.29Leedsevening wethrin
09:30.43wethrinEvening
09:34.37Leedshometime! :-)
09:36.58*** join/#gllug clyphox (n=clyphox@82-35-127-97.cable.ubr01.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk)
09:38.10morsing10:01 < Leeds> oh, and will you all please make sure you're subscribing to LWN?
09:38.17morsingwethrin!
09:40.31wethrinHELLO
09:41.15morsingHow are you?
09:41.46morsingWeird Qmail message:
09:41.48morsing<PROTECTED>
09:41.50wethrinNeed breakfast and coffee
09:41.56morsingMmm... Cawfy
09:42.07wethrinYar. What's SMTP error 451?
09:42.40wethrin451 - Requested action aborted: local error in processing
09:42.43eye69Requested action aborted: local error in processing
10:26.39*** join/#gllug Leeds (n=richardc@ipvpn095205.netvigator.com)
11:02.12clyphoxMoin
11:02.17clyphoxeek noon
11:04.37wethrinyes
11:14.16*** join/#gllug ebbeyes (n=ebb@82-44-186-111.cable.ubr06.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
12:06.49Leedsgronda gronda, your majesty
12:37.56gregj:>
13:13.57JAVafternoon!
13:23.27rhowemm, quiche
13:44.33*** join/#gllug ebbeyes (n=ebb@82-44-186-111.cable.ubr06.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
13:44.51wethrinrhowe is not a real programmer
13:45.12stephenheh
13:52.06rhowewethrin: indeed not
13:52.12wethrinHa
13:52.19wethrinReal programmers can write Fortran in any language
15:22.38Leedshmm... uknova has a "which browser" poll running... firefox is leading IE by 58% to 27%
15:28.11mozratdoes anyone else see a problem with http://planet.gllug.org.uk/ ?
15:35.15kbsinghmozrat, a proxy error ?
15:35.29mozratkbsingh: aye
16:09.52Leedsworking for me now
16:11.36mozratand me now
16:15.02*** join/#gllug George (i=george@kde/developer/gwright)
16:16.04wethrinHa
16:21.35*** join/#gllug George (n=Test@kde/developer/gwright)
16:22.24*** join/#gllug kbsingh (n=kbsingh@nat1.lon1.uk.xinit.com)
16:23.26wethrinVery RedHat-ish. In a not-wonderfully-polished sort of way
16:27.46mozratBASTARDS
16:28.19wethrinWhat's the command to remove leading and trailing whitespace?
16:30.52rhowesed -e '^ *' -e ' *$'?
16:31.00wethrinpah :-P
16:31.00rhoweer.. fill in s// as appropriate :)
16:31.15wethrinI thought there was a command to do it
16:34.33rhoweapropos whitespace returns nothing
16:34.40rhowemost programming languages have a trim() function
16:34.54Leedsstrip() in python
16:35.11wethrinYarr, but nothing in shell. Poo.
16:35.23wethrinI've done what I want, anyway
16:36.08Leedsyou could map that sed or something similar to a shell function if you were particularly worried
16:37.11wethrinI'm not that worried
16:42.31rhowewethrin: Bash'll let you chomp trailing spaces with ${var% *}
16:42.41rhowewethrin: There will be a similar thing for initial spaces, I expect
16:45.46wethrinFine, fine. But I've done what I needed
16:46.03wethrinI could have run it through perl -e "chomp($_)" too
16:47.43Leedswww.zimbra.com
16:53.22Leedsit's something along the lines of an open source gmail system
16:58.59Leedsjust downloaded their source tarball - all 150MB of it - to hosted machine in Texas.
16:59.00wethrinThey should be more innovative!
16:59.07wethrinThat's rather a lot
16:59.16Leedsit came down in 20 seconds
16:59.45Leedsakamai with the nearest node apparently being on the same LAN :-)
17:00.02wethrineek :)
17:00.07rhowelePHP?
17:00.16rhoweLeeds: PHP?
17:00.27Leedsmy machine is less than 1 ms ping away from their download server :-)
17:00.42wethrinRAR. Dan's cashed my cheque to j-colo
17:00.44Leedsrhowe: dunno - not unpacked the tarball yet... still marvelling at the download speeds
17:00.48Leedswethrin: ah, good!
17:00.49wethrinNow I owe you lot nothing :-)
17:02.07Leedsrhowe: appears to contain at least java, perl, php and javascript (for the client)
17:04.58Leedswhoa, built on lots of existing projects - the tarball contains at least Perl, Postfix, amavis, clamav, cyrus-sasl, jakarta-tomcat, jdk 1.5 (!), mrtg, mysql, openldap, rrdtool, sleepycat-db, and some snmp thing
17:06.02Leedsmight explain why it's a 150meg tarball :-)
17:07.45Leedsalso got nice looking calendar and contact manager... and it's enough of a show-off to make "next Wednesday" in a plain text mail into a link to that day in the calendar
17:12.05Leedsah well, bedtime
17:23.02wethrinHeh
17:31.16Cope:)
17:33.49Georgehey Cope
17:41.27mozratcope george!
17:43.00GeorgeI'm SO HUNGRY
17:43.01George:'(
17:46.17mozratgeorge, eat something
17:46.40Georgeyes
17:46.50GeorgeI'm pondering going downstairs and frying a couple of eggs/sausages
17:47.38mozratdo so
17:51.05mozratnext stop home!
17:51.22mozratgood evening all
18:25.36George<- fed
18:26.08rhoweCope: heh, I don't pretend to be an expert, but fire away
18:26.16rhoweCope: murb'd know better than I
18:26.54Copewell i'm just trying to understand it better; I understand the idea of taking a class c network, and extending the netmask etc
18:27.12Copelet me back track
18:27.56Copeforgetting class stuff altogether - suppose you come to cope.isp and say you need 70 ip addresses
18:27.56rhoweCope: Well to get a grasp of CIDR notation, you need to think of the netmask in binary. Then it becomes easy. CIDR allows for compact notation for a subset of netmask values
18:28.06Copeyeah I'm thinking in binary
18:28.38Copenow suppose you want 70 ip addresses - well 2^7 is 128 - 2 = 126
18:28.58Copeso you need a /25
18:29.00rhoweOK, so you need 7 bits of address space
18:29.05rhoweYes
18:29.11Copefine - I understand that
18:29.20rhowe/25 or larger, anyhow
18:29.28Copeso now you have 126 ip addresses
18:29.50rhoweYes, but you don't know what they are without specifying the prefix
18:29.59Copelet's call it 213.225.136.0/25
18:31.04rhoweOK
18:31.04Copeso that's 1-126
18:31.04Copewith 127 as the broadcast
18:31.04rhoweyep
18:31.04Copefine
18:31.04rhoweand .0 as the network address
18:31.05Copeyeah
18:31.05Copenow this is where i get confused - suppose you want to subnet your own address space
18:31.20Copeyou want 3 separate networks of 25 machines each
18:31.58rhoweOK.. well for 25 addresses the smallest block you could allocate with CIDR notation would be a 30-address one
18:32.03Copeyep
18:32.13stephenyou'd want 136.0/27, 136.32/27 and 136.64/27
18:32.23rhoweSo that's 5 bits of addressing, a /27
18:32.30*** join/#gllug Erwin (n=erwin@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/Erwin)
18:32.34Copeok hang on a sec, let me do the maths
18:32.46Copeyep 5 bits = 27
18:32.48Copefine
18:32.56rhowe32 - 5 :)
18:33.32Copeok - so we've reduced our number of ips to 90 useable
18:33.38Copethat's fine
18:33.50rhowe90?
18:33.59Copeyeah - 3 subnets with 30 ips
18:34.13rhoweI think you'll find you can fit 4 subnets in there
18:34.34Copeah ok - because we could throw in a /29
18:35.01rhowewell let's see.
18:35.31rhowe213.225.136.0/25 is 213.225.136.[0-127]
18:35.38Cope64+32 = 96
18:35.46stephenyou could have .96/27 too, surely?
18:36.06Copewe've got 126 addresses in our allocation
18:36.17Copeso yes, we could actually fit another /27
18:36.40Copeok - all that goes to show is that I feel ok on this sort of thing
18:36.56rhowe213.225.136.0/27 is .[0-31] .32/27 is .[32-63], .64/27 is .[64-95] and .96/27 is .[96-127]
18:37.04Copewhere it gets complicated is when we sraer allocating a bunch
18:37.27Copesuppose rhowe.isp gets 32 class C addresses
18:37.44rhoweOK... are they all contiguous?
18:37.51Cope213.225.0.0 -  213.225.31.0
18:37.52Copeyeah
18:38.12rhoweOK, so that's 213.225.0.0/19, right?
18:38.16rhowe213.225/19 for short
18:38.17Copenow as I understand it these can be aggregated
18:38.28rhowe(though I dislike that notation myself)
18:38.33Copeum /21?
18:39.06rhoweI thought we established 32 addresses were 5 bits. A class C is /24 and 24-5 = 19
18:39.19rhoweOr, the other way.. a class B is 16
18:39.36rhowehalf a class B has 128 class C's, which is /17
18:39.42rhowehalf that has 64, /18
18:39.45rhoweand half that has 32, /19
18:40.48rhowe(regarding string comment)
18:41.55Copehmm ok
18:42.27rhowe<PROTECTED>
18:42.28rhowe<PROTECTED>
18:42.28rhowe<PROTECTED>
18:42.33rhoweheh
18:42.39Copewell the next question is, we could use that internally as 1 x /19
18:42.41rhowekeep dreaming, Steve (not you, Cope)
18:42.59Copeie 1 network of 8190 hosts
18:43.11rhoweCope: Yes. The only reason you would ever need to think "32 class C's" is if you're using old routers or switches which don't understand CIDR
18:43.27rhoweCope: I think some older routing protocols only handled class A/B/C/D/E too
18:43.31Copesure
18:43.33rhoweCope: Maybe old BGP or something
18:44.26Copewell what I'm getting at is that I've read that somehow (and I don't see how) we might be able to have many networks of /26 (eg) with 62 hosts each
18:44.28rhoweCope: So, with modern BGP and route aggregation/summarisation you could advertise a 213.225.0.0/19 route to the world instead of annoucing a seperate route for each of the subnets you've defined
18:44.40Copein a way that we've somehow gained more ips than we were given
18:44.40rhoweCope: Sure you can
18:44.48Copeok - this is the bit where I get confused
18:44.52rhoweCope: Hm.. I don't see that that's possible
18:45.11rhoweCope: Draw 32 squares in a row, to form a long rectangle
18:45.24Coperhowe: yes - I know - this is what I don't follow
18:45.33rhoweCope: It may be possible with routing trickery, but unless you use NAT you can't have two hosts with the same IP address
18:45.56Copeok - here - from a book:
18:45.58rhoweCope: You may be able to avoid wasting 2 addresses on broadcast + network for each subnet, but otherwise, I don't see how it can be done
18:48.01CopeImagine a site 192.144.0.0/21; with CIDR we can aggregate several networks - hence CIDR is sometimes called supernetting.  Our multiple class C networks do not require a separate routing table entry. The site could also be allocare a subspace of class A or B addresses.  Internally the site could use their allocation as:
18:48.23Cope1 network of length /21 = 2046 hosrs, netmask 255.255.224.0
18:48.47rhoweOK, fine
18:48.47Cope32 networks of length /24, 254 hosts each, netmask 255.255.255.0
18:49.00rhoweCope: Note the missing "or" between those sentences :)
18:49.15Cope64 networks of length /25, 126 hosts each. netmask 255.255.255.0
18:49.42Cope128 networks of length /26, 62 hosts each, netmask 255.255.255.192
18:49.47Cope</end>
18:50.06Copesure i understand this is an OR
18:50.26Copebut to me 64 networks x 126 is much bigger than 2046
18:50.45rhowewell.. let's see..
18:50.58rhoweA /24 is 254 hosts. We can understand that trivially
18:51.08CopeI make that 8064 hosts
18:51.22rhoweSo, a /23 is 2*256-2 = 510 hosts
18:51.42rhowea /22 is twice as big, 1022 hosts, and a /21 is twice as big as that, 1046 hosts
18:51.45rhoweerr, 2046
18:51.55rhoweOK, so their maths is right for the /21
18:52.14rhoweI don't think their maths is right for the /24 though
18:52.30rhoweTry this.. draw 32 squares next to each other, horizontally in a row.
18:52.35Copeok
18:52.38rhoweSo that you have a long stripy rectangle
18:52.47rhoweThis is your IPv4 address space
18:53.23rhowehm, actually we can do this quite trivially
18:54.03rhoweA CIDR network of size /n can contain 2 networks of size /(n-1)
18:54.13rhoweerr, I got that wrong - s/-/+/
18:54.29rhoweA CIDR network of size /n can contain 2 networks of size /(n+1)
18:54.49rhoweOr, conversely, a CIDR network of size /n is half the size of a network of size /(n-1)
18:55.00rhowee.g. a /25 is half the size of a /24
18:55.15rhoweTaking the size as all addresses in the network, including network and broadcast
18:55.41Copeok
18:55.52rhoweSo, we have a /21
18:55.57rhowewhich can contain 2 /22's
18:56.04rhowewhich can each contain 2 /23's
18:56.09rhowewhich can each contain 2 /24's
18:56.15rhowethat's 2*2*2 = 8
18:56.25rhoweSo in a /21 we can only have 8 /24's, not 32 like the book says
18:57.04rhoweWe can generalise this... a network of size /n can contain 2^i networks of size /(n-i)
18:57.25rhowedammit, +i
18:57.39rhoweA network of size /n can contain 2^i networks of size /(n+i)
18:57.50rhoweSo, in our /21 we can have 2^5 = 32 /26's
18:57.57rhoweNot 128
18:58.25rhoweAnd the book is also wrong about the netmask
18:58.29Copeahaha!
18:58.38rhowehm.. no it isn't
18:58.40rhowewell, it sort of is
18:58.50Copewait a moment!
18:58.56rhowea /25 isn't 255.255.255.0, it's 255.255.255.128!
18:59.02rhoweOr, it's 255.255.255.0
18:59.08rhoweDepending on the prefix!
18:59.12rhowehm, ignore that
18:59.16rhoweIt's .128, always
18:59.39Copei think the book has a consistent error
18:59.44rhoweI refer you to the shell script I posted once about using bash to calculate CIDR from netmask
19:00.06Coperemember my example 213.225.0.0 - 32 class c's?
19:00.18Copeand I said that was a /21 - but I was wrong
19:00.25I<PROTECTED>
19:00.25I<PROTECTED>
19:00.25I<PROTECTED>
19:00.25I<PROTECTED>
19:00.27I<PROTECTED>
19:00.30I<PROTECTED>
19:00.32I<PROTECTED>
19:00.35I<PROTECTED>
19:00.39I<PROTECTED>
19:00.40I<PROTECTED>
19:00.42I<PROTECTED>
19:00.45I<PROTECTED>
19:00.47I<PROTECTED>
19:00.50I<PROTECTED>
19:00.52I<PROTECTED>
19:00.55I<PROTECTED>
19:00.57I<PROTECTED>
19:00.58Copeokok
19:01.01Inick rhowe
19:01.04Copenow look!
19:01.05rhoweargh
19:01.11Cope20:10 < I>                 255.255.224.0)          return "19";;
19:01.14Cope20:10 < I>                 255.255.224.0)          return "19";;
19:01.19Copesee
19:01.30Copethe book has typo'd /21 for /19
19:01.43Copewell not typos
19:01.47Copejust  got it wrong
19:01.49rhoweAh, yes
19:01.51Copelook:
19:01.58Cope1 network of length /21 = 2046 hosrs, netmask 255.255.224.0
19:02.07Copethat should be /21
19:02.10CopeNOT
19:02.13Copeshould be 19
19:02.28rhoweYeah, that's where it's gone wrong
19:02.33rhoweShould be /19, not /21
19:02.38rhoweThen it's right
19:02.48Copesanelson@kotov:~$ ipcalc 192.144.0.0/19
19:02.49CopeAddress:   192.144.0.0          11000000.10010000.000 00000.00000000
19:02.49CopeNetmask:   255.255.224.0 = 19   11111111.11111111.111 00000.00000000
19:02.49CopeWildcard:  0.0.31.255           00000000.00000000.000 11111.11111111
19:02.49Cope=>
19:02.51CopeNetwork:   192.144.0.0/19       11000000.10010000.000 00000.00000000
19:02.54CopeHostMin:   192.144.0.1          11000000.10010000.000 00000.00000001
19:02.56CopeHostMax:   192.144.31.254       11000000.10010000.000 11111.11111110
19:02.59CopeBroadcast: 192.144.31.255       11000000.10010000.000 11111.11111111
19:03.01CopeHosts/Net: 8190                  Class C
19:03.30CopeSo all that confusion because of a mistake in the book!
19:03.38rhoweyep
19:04.11rhoweIf you have a network you want to subnet, it helps to draw it out like I described with the 32 squares
19:04.27rhoweStarting from the left, fill in the bits you aren't allowed to mess with
19:04.31Copeok
19:04.36Copelet's make up an example
19:04.38rhowee.g. if you have a /19, fill in the first 19 squares
19:04.49Copenah - I have a /27
19:05.12Copeok - so 27 filled in
19:05.14Copewhat now
19:06.17rhoweOK, sop you have 5 empty squares, 5 bits of address space to play with
19:06.32rhoweNow, decide on the smallest subnet you want to allocate
19:06.51Copeok 8 machines
19:07.07rhoweOK, so 3 bits
19:07.15*** join/#gllug ebbeyes (n=ebb@82-44-186-111.cable.ubr06.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
19:07.38rhoweDraw a thick line between box 29 and 30
19:08.01rhowecall it 'subnet boundary' or something
19:08.04Copehmm
19:08.10Copeyep
19:08.26rhoweThat leaves you 2 bits
19:08.39rhoweThose 2 bits are your network numbers, and with them you can have 4 networks of /29
19:08.53Copewhy 4?
19:09.02rhowe00, 01, 10, 11
19:09.03rhowe4
19:09.12Copeoh right yah sure
19:09.20Copebut we shouldn't use 00 and 11
19:09.26rhoweWe should
19:09.35Copenot according to the rfc
19:09.45rhoweOh I'd ignore that :P
19:09.53Copeit is old
19:09.56rhoweThese are network prefixes
19:10.01rhoweNot host addresses
19:10.13Copemmkay
19:10.22rhowe"prefix" is a term used in many places to refer to the part of the CIDR spec before the /
19:10.32rhowenot quite sure what the bit after the / should be called
19:11.19Copenow our 4 / 29s - how do I know how big each network is again?
19:11.25Copethe answer is 30 isn't it
19:11.35Copeso... 1-31
19:11.45Cope32 = broadcast
19:12.01rhoweOur 4 29's are each 5 bits big
19:12.06rhoweer, 3 bits big
19:12.24rhoweyou have (in total) 5 bits of the IPv4 address space to play with
19:12.44rhoweYou've decided to use 2 of those bits to determine the network a host is on, and the remaining 3 to determine the host within that network
19:12.45Copewe've cut off 3 bits
19:13.30rhoweThis way of doing it gets a bit messy when you have unequal-sized subnets in your supernet, but if you're at that stage you've probably already got a good grasp of CIDR
19:13.38Copesure
19:13.43rhowee.g. in your setup you could have one /28 and two /29's
19:14.02rhoweYou could call your /29's sub-subnets, I guess
19:14.16rhoweand just repeat the diagram with the first 28 boxes shaded :)
19:14.31*** join/#gllug \simon (n=simon@host163-7.pool8251.interbusiness.it)
19:14.34\simonhi all!
19:14.54Coperhowe: still trying to remember (work out) how big our /29s are
19:15.07rhoweCope: 3 bits
19:15.16Copebecause 32-29 = 3
19:15.21rhoweYes
19:15.33rhoweOr because there are 3 boxes to the right of your 'subnet boundary'
19:15.36Cope2^3 = 8 - 2
19:15.47rhoweyep
19:15.50rhoweso 6 hosts
19:16.03rhowex 4 networks = 24 hosts on 4 networks
19:16.09Copehmm - now why did you ask at first the slightly misleading question - what's the *smallest* network you want
19:16.13CopeI said 8
19:16.22Copebut that's the smallest
19:16.31Copesuppose I want a network with  11 machines
19:16.33rhoweSo that we could summarise it as 4 networks of 8 hosts
19:16.34Copenow we're stuffed
19:16.45rhoweJust merge two adjacent networks
19:16.59Copeand have one broadcast?
19:16.59rhowemake sure they're properly aligned though
19:17.09rhoweYou could merge 00 and 01, or 10 and 11, but not 01 and 10
19:17.14Copesure
19:17.36rhoweThen you have a /28 and two /29's
19:18.15rhowee.g. 1.1.1.0/28, 1.1.1.16/29 and 1.1.1.24/29
19:18.22Cope82.163.12.32/27
19:18.29rhoweor 1.1.1.0/29, 1.1.1.8/29 and 1.1.1.16/28
19:18.43Copeso thats 82.163.12.33 - 62
19:19.21Copeso I do an 82.163.12.33/28
19:19.38rhoweOK, so you can have 82.163.12.32/28, 82.163.12.48/29 and 82.163.12.56/29, or 82.163.12.32/29, 82.163.12.40/29 and 82.163.12.48/28
19:20.10Cope82.163.12.48/29
19:20.31rhoweno, /28
19:20.37rhowesince you want a network with 11 hosts
19:20.53Copeand one more: 82.163.12.56/29
19:20.57rhoweso you need a /28 and either one other /28 or two other /29's
19:21.03Copeyeah that's what I said
19:21.07rhoweOh yeah
19:21.18rhoweexcept your first one should be .32/28
19:21.24Copeyeah:
19:21.27Copeso I do an 82.163.12.33/28
19:21.33Copeoh 32?
19:21.46rhoweYeah
19:21.50Cope82.163.12.32/27
19:22.02Copeuseable: 82.163.12.33 - 62
19:22.05Copesurely?
19:22.06rhoweand also .32/28
19:22.08rhowenope
19:22.21rhowenetworks can overlap precisely
19:22.44Copehmm
19:22.44rhowe.33 wouldn't be a valid network address for anything other than 82.163.12.33/32, which isn't really a network :)
19:22.45Copeok
19:23.18Copei'm confused again now - i was just about to say I understood
19:23.29CopeI've been given a notional /27 by $isp
19:23.37Cope82.163.12.32/27
19:23.46Cope.32 is the network address
19:23.52Cope.63 is the broadcast address
19:24.02Copeso I only have 33-62 to carve up
19:24.36Copeahh... are you saying that because I've "converted" that /27 into a /28 and 2 x /29 I can start on the network address?
19:24.59rhoweyes
19:25.09rhoweThe /27 isn't a /27 to you
19:25.11rhoweOnly to the ISP
19:25.16Copeyeah - exactly
19:25.24rhoweYou then take that /27 and slice it into 3 pieces
19:25.29Copethey have one routing table entry
19:25.29rhoweon even bit boundaries
19:25.39rhoweYes
19:25.47Copewhat I do with it is my business
19:25.56rhoweWhen you subnet your /27, you don't need to tell your ISP you've done it. All they need to do is make sure anything in that address range gets sent to your router
19:26.18rhoweYou can even be *really* sneaky and use the network and broadcast addresses as host addresses
19:26.20Copeyep
19:26.42rhoweBy configuring your network as 82.163.12.0/25
19:26.55Copeonly took 1 hr
19:27.07rhoweSince your ISP will route 82.163.12.32 and 82.163.12.63 to you
19:27.16Copeyep
19:27.38rhoweIf you configure a /27, your router will drop packets destined for those two hosts (if it's a good router - it shouldn't allow people outside your network to contact an address it knows is a broadcast address)
19:28.14rhoweBut, if you configure a /25, which has a network address of .0 and a broadcast address of .127, then .32 and .63 are just regular host addresses to your router
19:28.17rhoweand it'll deliver packets to them
19:29.17rhoweThe problem then is that hosts on your LAN think that 82.163.12.1 (for example) is a local address, and won't be sending packets via the router for that address. They'll just ARP on the local ethernet segment, not get a response and give host unreachable
19:29.53rhoweYou could be even sneakier by getting your router to proxyarp for those addresses which aren't yours, I guess... and in that way you'd have full connectivity and 2 free IP addresses!
19:30.12rhoweBut we're getting complicated then :)
19:31.17Copehehe
19:31.21Coperight - dinner time
19:33.57\simoni'm using VirtualDocumentRoot in the apache configuration. is there a way to setup a default DocumentRoot for those hostnames that dont match a directory?
20:37.25gregjany funny, british, podcasts you guys can recomend ?
21:15.34gregjor radio shows I can put on me iPod
21:19.05rhowegregj: Not that I can think of.. you could see what the BBC offers, but it's unlikely to be in an iPod-friendly format
21:21.05gregjmp3 ? :>
21:22.14rhoweMore like realaudio or WMA
21:23.38gregj:(
21:23.46gregjW word
21:24.24gregjbloody bbc
21:48.21gregjwhat's the plural for cheque ?
21:48.30gregjchecks ? ;)
21:48.39gregjchiks
21:48.40gregj:D
21:48.42gregjchicks
21:49.03gregjor just cheques
21:49.09gregj(ispell doesn't like it)
21:53.11rhowecheques in British English, checks in American
21:53.23rhoweAmericans say check, we say cheque
22:19.52rhoweugh, /var just exploded on my mail server
22:20.04gregjyep, of coz I am speaking about British English, I call American English by name explictly
23:30.51Georgehey, it's gregj!
23:37.22gregj:P
23:38.03Georgeewwwwwww
23:38.27Georgesick man
23:38.42gregjfor you anything, boy
23:43.44*** join/#gllug AngelChild (n=Catalyst@jamesmorse.plus.com)
23:49.03Georgefuck off

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