| 00:21.36 | Leeds | wethrin: why would he refuse to speak to the GNU/Linux London Users' Group? Assuming the question is about RMS... |
| 00:24.19 | wethrin | Well......true :) |
| 00:25.46 | rhowe | haha, brainjuicer can be funny sometimes - it's a market research thingy which shows you others' answers as examples |
| 00:25.50 | rhowe | I'm now looking at the following question: "Why do you think people would dislike 'Russell Brand'?" |
| 00:25.57 | rhowe | Someone's got "He is as funny as syphilis" |
| 00:26.53 | wethrin | :-) |
| 00:27.00 | wethrin | How about: because he's an irritating nob? |
| 00:29.27 | *** join/#gllug Jasperw (n=jasperw@host81-129-111-167.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:53.14 | Leeds | hah... Bremner, Bird and Fortune had a shot at Wikipedia :-) |
| 03:11.22 | *** join/#gllug clive-h (n=ch@chills.demon.co.uk) |
| 03:31.36 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (n=richardc@awork064052.netvigator.com) |
| 05:56.53 | *** join/#gllug clive-h (n=ch@chills.demon.co.uk) |
| 06:00.26 | morsing | clive-h! |
| 06:01.30 | clive-h | Hi morsing |
| 07:18.06 | morsing | Nice... So should I... |
| 07:18.33 | morsing | clive-h: Tell me howto install RedHat on a Debian Dom0? |
| 07:18.38 | morsing | Or even worse, BSD? |
| 07:18.47 | morsing | BSD DomU that is |
| 07:20.37 | morsing | I cannot believe I already got a spam mail on a new domain I created less than a week ago and I haven't even used the email address... |
| 07:21.12 | Leeds | I can't believe it took so long |
| 07:21.24 | morsing | Leeds! You're back! :) |
| 07:21.24 | Cope | Good morning chums. |
| 07:21.30 | morsing | 'morning Cope |
| 07:21.35 | Leeds | afternoon all |
| 07:21.38 | morsing | Cope: Good to see you're a regular again :) |
| 07:21.54 | morsing | How's William? |
| 07:22.05 | Cope | right beside me, eating toast and marmite |
| 07:22.09 | morsing | Nice |
| 07:22.25 | Cope | ~william |
| 07:22.28 | ibot | [william] the son of Cope, who is living with Cope!, or not to grow up anything like George, or probably eating |
| 07:22.40 | Cope | see - probably eating |
| 07:22.49 | morsing | :) |
| 07:23.25 | Leeds | marmite? |
| 07:23.52 | Leeds | aren't there laws against that sort of thing? |
| 07:24.39 | morsing | Marmite is the best - right after vegimite |
| 07:25.52 | *** join/#gllug SlayerXP (n=martin@gw-colt.fotango.com) |
| 07:28.22 | Cope | hello SlayerXP |
| 07:28.29 | SlayerXP | yo |
| 07:32.27 | morsing | SlayerXP! |
| 07:32.36 | morsing | Leeds: You don't eat meat |
| 07:32.53 | Leeds | I do eat fish |
| 07:33.06 | Leeds | actually, I do eat meat, I just stick to kosher meat |
| 07:33.15 | Leeds | and I got told by a doctor to go easy on meat, anyway |
| 07:34.19 | morsing | PHP is the best! |
| 07:38.32 | SlayerXP | s/best/best way to gets your "server" remotely owned by sciprkiddies/; |
| 07:41.59 | morsing | SlayerXP: My company application is being processes now |
| 07:42.18 | SlayerXP | morsing: that should only take a few days |
| 07:42.25 | morsing | Cool |
| 07:42.34 | SlayerXP | your COI should be with you inside 2 weeks |
| 07:42.38 | morsing | SlayerXP: What's a business bank account? Is there a difference? |
| 07:42.42 | morsing | COI? |
| 07:42.49 | SlayerXP | morsing: certificate of incorporation |
| 07:42.54 | morsing | Ahh... |
| 07:43.02 | SlayerXP | yes, there is a big difference between a personal and business bank account |
| 07:43.39 | morsing | Ok, I can't spend from a business account then, can I? I have to pay a salary into my personal account? |
| 07:44.06 | SlayerXP | your accountant should be able to tell you all this stuff |
| 07:44.10 | morsing | Ok, |
| 07:44.17 | morsing | SlayerXP: Have you ever used GnuCash? |
| 07:44.20 | SlayerXP | but, yes, a business account is for business expenditure only |
| 07:44.29 | SlayerXP | morsing: no, I hired an accountant. |
| 07:44.49 | Leeds | one of the costs of doing business |
| 07:45.21 | morsing | So out of what comes in to your business account what would you normally pay yourself and is there an advantage to leave money in the business account? |
| 07:45.58 | SlayerXP | you pay busienss expenses out of it |
| 07:46.09 | SlayerXP | typically business accounts don't pay interest |
| 07:46.25 | Leeds | exactly what constitutes a business expense depends on how good/cheeky you and your accountant are |
| 07:46.27 | SlayerXP | though HSBC do an nice "combined" business current and savings account |
| 07:46.43 | Leeds | SlayerXP: they also typically attract more fees than personal accounts |
| 07:46.44 | morsing | Why no interest? |
| 07:46.56 | morsing | Why do I need a business account? |
| 07:47.05 | SlayerXP | morsing: also business banking isn't free |
| 07:47.12 | morsing | Right... |
| 07:47.38 | Leeds | morsing: talk to your accountant about this stuff... if you haven't got an accountant, get one, at least for advice on setting stuff up |
| 07:47.39 | SlayerXP | morsing: because you can;'t pay cheques written to your company into your personal account |
| 07:47.52 | SlayerXP | a good accountant will cost you about £150 per month |
| 07:48.03 | SlayerXP | a good accountant will also save you way more than £150 per month |
| 07:48.19 | Leeds | also, talk to your bank... they'll probably be happy to spend some time with you explaining how it all works |
| 07:48.38 | Leeds | I'd say it's worth going to whoever you bank with personally, assuming you're a decent customer |
| 07:48.39 | SlayerXP | and your bank will also probably give your a couple of years of free banking if you ask |
| 07:48.55 | SlayerXP | i got two years free when I started Clues |
| 07:49.21 | Leeds | free free? or just no regular fees? |
| 07:50.10 | morsing | Ok, I've already arranged to go see my bank. |
| 07:50.11 | Cope | i did an audit of business bank accounts - some are free under certain conditions |
| 07:50.19 | morsing | I've got a good accountant as well |
| 07:50.28 | SlayerXP | Leeds: free free. |
| 07:50.33 | Leeds | SlayerXP: nice |
| 07:50.35 | morsing | Now I just need a contract |
| 07:50.42 | Cope | you need to work out what sort of use the account will have |
| 07:50.51 | morsing | In what way? |
| 07:51.07 | morsing | Do contractors normally get paid weekly? |
| 07:51.08 | Leeds | morsing: are you after one full-time contract, or multiple part-time ones? |
| 07:51.09 | SlayerXP | morsing: tip #1: get all your clients to pay by bank transfer |
| 07:51.15 | morsing | One full time |
| 07:51.27 | SlayerXP | morsing: errk, welcome to IR35 |
| 07:51.33 | morsing | Ok. How else would they want to pay? |
| 07:51.36 | morsing | IR335? |
| 07:51.48 | SlayerXP | morsing: cheque, which costs _you_ money to pay in |
| 07:51.54 | morsing | Do contractors normally get paid weekly? |
| 07:52.02 | SlayerXP | depends of your contract |
| 07:52.14 | SlayerXP | err, you're going contracting and you don't know what IR35 is? |
| 07:52.17 | Leeds | looks like I'm going to be paid monthly |
| 07:53.19 | SlayerXP | DANGER: SHARP LEARNING CURVE AHEAD |
| 07:53.21 | morsing | SlayerXP: Indeed |
| 07:53.24 | morsing | :( |
| 07:53.47 | Leeds | there must be a Dummies book, surely? |
| 07:54.06 | SlayerXP | ir35 is a piece of tax legislation designed to stop you making lots of cash out of contracting |
| 07:54.15 | morsing | SlayerXP: Is there a web-forum for coontractors? |
| 07:54.22 | SlayerXP | if you're a one man band, and on a full time contract, you almost certainly fall under it |
| 07:54.24 | morsing | SlayerXP: Right... |
| 07:54.33 | Leeds | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35 |
| 07:54.38 | morsing | Is that good? |
| 07:55.19 | Leeds | no, it's bad |
| 07:55.50 | Leeds | I would fall under it as well, if my legal/tax/visa situation were less... murky |
| 07:56.00 | SlayerXP | I don't fall under it at all luckily |
| 07:56.18 | SlayerXP | I have more than one client, and where I do sign contracts, I'm interchangeable with one of my partners |
| 07:56.38 | SlayerXP | i.e. the company is hiring my company, not _me_ |
| 07:56.59 | morsing | Right... |
| 07:57.03 | Leeds | hmm... maybe I wouldn't fall under it then... |
| 07:57.41 | Leeds | actually... yes I would, if everything I was doing was... more above board than it is |
| 07:58.32 | Leeds | uh... |
| 08:03.53 | morsing | SlayerXP: You suck |
| 08:04.06 | SlayerXP | i nibble, too |
| 08:04.10 | SlayerXP | drives the ladies wild, |
| 08:04.15 | morsing | SlayerXP: So what's the benefit of leaving money in yur business account |
| 08:04.17 | morsing | ? |
| 08:04.33 | SlayerXP | morsing: well, you'll need to |
| 08:04.39 | morsing | How much? |
| 08:04.57 | SlayerXP | by definition, everything the business has |
| 08:05.05 | SlayerXP | you can';t just randomly remove cash from a business account |
| 08:05.08 | Leeds | morsing: you're paying yourself a wage |
| 08:05.15 | Leeds | you're spending business expenses |
| 08:05.22 | Leeds | everything else is an asset of the company, not of you |
| 08:05.25 | morsing | Yes, so I pay myself a fixed wage monthly. How much? |
| 08:05.33 | SlayerXP | morsing: as little as possible |
| 08:05.46 | morsing | Well, I need to eat and pay my mortgage |
| 08:05.52 | morsing | Why as little as possible? |
| 08:06.06 | SlayerXP | you've clearly never come across Employers NICs :) |
| 08:06.11 | Leeds | SlayerXP: is there any way to get any of the mortgage payment in as a business expense, if the company is registered at that address? |
| 08:06.16 | morsing | What use is money locked in a business account to me? |
| 08:06.29 | SlayerXP | Leeds: you can rent a room to your business. |
| 08:06.35 | Leeds | morsing: it's not your money! |
| 08:06.42 | SlayerXP | morsing: you might want to pay yourself on occasion |
| 08:06.56 | Leeds | morsing: are you (going to be) a limited company? |
| 08:07.00 | morsing | On occasion? Like an employee yearly bonus? |
| 08:07.04 | morsing | Leeds: Yes |
| 08:07.13 | Leeds | then you're not the only shareholder, right? |
| 08:07.13 | morsing | I don't get this... |
| 08:07.19 | SlayerXP | morsing: pay yourself a dividend every now and again |
| 08:07.19 | morsing | Right... |
| 08:07.39 | morsing | SlayerXP: How much should my monthly employee salary be!!!? |
| 08:07.41 | Leeds | so it's not your money - it belongs to the company, which belongs to the shareholders |
| 08:07.50 | morsing | Leeds: How much! |
| 08:08.03 | morsing | Cope: How much! |
| 08:08.04 | Leeds | no idea |
| 08:08.07 | morsing | gw280: How much! |
| 08:08.14 | Leeds | morsing: talk to fucking professionals about this |
| 08:08.19 | SlayerXP | morsing: you can pay yourself whatever you want, but bear in mind that you will pay NI and income tax, and the company will have to pay NICs on your behalf. |
| 08:08.21 | morsing | I need at least £3500/mth |
| 08:08.41 | SlayerXP | employers NICs are a fucking nightmare. |
| 08:08.43 | sabinef72 | morning all |
| 08:08.51 | morsing | SlayerXP: Yes, but I ask again, if the money stays with the company what good does it do me? |
| 08:08.54 | morsing | sabinef72! |
| 08:09.02 | SlayerXP | morsing: it keeps the company solvent |
| 08:09.04 | sabinef72 | heyyyyyyy |
| 08:09.09 | Leeds | hey sabinef72... |
| 08:09.11 | morsing | SlayerXP: *sigh* |
| 08:09.17 | SlayerXP | and it means you can pay yourself a salary during months when you don't work |
| 08:09.32 | morsing | SlayerXP: Ok, now you're talking a but of sense |
| 08:09.41 | SlayerXP | really, pay yourself the absolute bare minimum that you can |
| 08:09.52 | morsing | SlayerXP: Another thing is holiday. How's holiday done when you're on a contract? |
| 08:10.03 | SlayerXP | morsing: you take time off, and don't get paid for it |
| 08:10.05 | Leeds | there's no holiday - there are days you don't get paid for |
| 08:10.08 | morsing | SlayerXP: Well, as I said £3500 is the bare minimum |
| 08:10.21 | Leeds | morsing: before tax, I assume you mean |
| 08:10.25 | SlayerXP | morsing: gross or net? |
| 08:10.45 | morsing | Leeds: Yes - I understand, but the company that has paid for someone to do work will be without me for a couple of weeks if I go away |
| 08:10.50 | morsing | SlayerXP: Net |
| 08:10.57 | Leeds | that's quite a lot of money for a bare minimum... I reckon my minimum here is about £1200-£1500 a month |
| 08:11.05 | Leeds | morsing: you're fucking kidding, right? |
| 08:11.06 | SlayerXP | morsing: you're fucked |
| 08:11.24 | SlayerXP | to pay yourself that, you're looking at over 2k in taxes per month |
| 08:11.25 | morsing | Leeds: We've discussed my financial situation before, haven't we? |
| 08:11.30 | morsing | SlayerXP: Cool. |
| 08:12.20 | Leeds | morsing: you're saying you can't live on less than £60k per year, gross? |
| 08:12.58 | morsing | Yes, something like that. I'm getting 50k atm and I won't be able to pay my mortgage in about two months... |
| 08:13.32 | morsing | I need the money. I have to pay my loans off ASAP to be able to manage this |
| 08:13.43 | Leeds | sell your bloody house and move somewhere you can afford to live |
| 08:13.48 | sabinef72 | mozrat: mozzieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee |
| 08:13.52 | morsing | No |
| 08:14.03 | Leeds | then starve and/or lose your house to the bank |
| 08:14.06 | morsing | I moved to Aylesbury because I could afford to live there. |
| 08:14.22 | morsing | I need to pay off my loans, not my mortgage |
| 08:15.09 | morsing | I pay £260/mth for them. Paying them off quickly will be the first thing to do, then remortgage |
| 08:15.32 | Leeds | what are you paying monthly on your mortgage? |
| 08:15.44 | morsing | £1010 fixed rate till Oct. |
| 08:15.46 | Leeds | what happens if it takes you a couple of months to get a contract? |
| 08:15.58 | morsing | Then I'll remortgage and it will go down to about £920 |
| 08:15.58 | Leeds | etc. etc. etc. |
| 08:16.00 | morsing | Hoepfully |
| 08:16.19 | morsing | Leeds: I'll have to borrow more money to pay the mortgage |
| 08:16.33 | Leeds | then, as SlayerXP quite succinctly put it - you're fucked |
| 08:16.39 | Leeds | sell the place and move somewhere you can afford to live |
| 08:16.44 | morsing | Bottom line is right now, I need all the cash I can get my hands on! |
| 08:16.51 | morsing | Leeds: No |
| 08:17.05 | Leeds | look... right now I can't pay next month's rent... |
| 08:17.09 | morsing | Cool |
| 08:17.18 | Leeds | but I'm just waiting for paperwork to come through and should be working by the end of the week |
| 08:17.36 | Leeds | but my mortgage in London is *much* lower than yours, and is easily covered by the rent I've got coming in |
| 08:18.12 | Leeds | particularly since, given that I've had no income apart from that rent since August... I'm not currently a tax-payer anywhere |
| 08:18.31 | morsing | And as I said, when I sell the BMW I'll save £200/mth on that as well |
| 08:18.42 | Leeds | when isn't good enough |
| 08:19.08 | morsing | So, two loans + car saves me £450/mth |
| 08:19.28 | morsing | Leeds: We've discussed this before, I'm not doing it again |
| 08:20.01 | Leeds | you're seriously telling me that as a single man living alone, with no dependents, once you've got rid of the car and paid off your loans, you need £3000 a month to live on? |
| 08:20.36 | morsing | No, then I would need £2500 |
| 08:20.48 | Leeds | if your mortgage is £1000 - what the fuck are you spending £1500 a month on? |
| 08:21.14 | morsing | My direct debits without the BMW are £600 |
| 08:21.23 | Leeds | for what? |
| 08:21.35 | morsing | And without the loans £350 |
| 08:22.02 | morsing | Electricity, gas, water, TV licence, insurance for house and cars |
| 08:22.03 | Leeds | council tax, electricity, gas, water, TV license, phone, internet, insurance... what else? |
| 08:22.04 | morsing | etc. |
| 08:22.09 | morsing | Council tax yes |
| 08:22.15 | morsing | Phone and internet |
| 08:22.34 | Leeds | okay, once you've got rid of the BWM, how many cars are you running? |
| 08:22.38 | morsing | England is a very expensive country to live in... |
| 08:22.43 | Leeds | it's not that expensive |
| 08:22.57 | SlayerXP | try norway |
| 08:22.59 | Leeds | and frankly, if it is - leave! |
| 08:23.03 | morsing | One + one weekend car, which as we have discussed previuously is practically free |
| 08:23.21 | Leeds | still think you're fucked |
| 08:24.24 | morsing | Leeds: London is the most expensive place in the world! |
| 08:24.40 | morsing | Leeds: Why am I discussing this with you again... |
| 08:24.44 | Leeds | no it isn't |
| 08:24.48 | Leeds | and you don't live in London |
| 08:24.51 | morsing | SlayerXP: Norway is cheaper than England |
| 08:24.55 | morsing | Yes it is |
| 08:25.04 | SlayerXP | morsing: err, no, it isn't |
| 08:25.10 | SlayerXP | not by a long long way |
| 08:25.21 | SlayerXP | i lived there for 18 months, where do you get your information from? |
| 08:25.21 | morsing | SlayerXP: Yes it is. You're being stupid |
| 08:26.23 | morsing | Where in Norway did you live?> |
| 08:26.47 | SlayerXP | near a town called Steinkjer, about 120km north of trondheim |
| 08:27.16 | morsing | http://www.citymayors.com/economics/expensive_cities2.html |
| 08:27.48 | morsing | Don't know if that takes into account cost of living or just housing |
| 08:28.01 | SlayerXP | here's an example |
| 08:28.18 | morsing | Oh... It does look at cost of living |
| 08:28.20 | SlayerXP | when you buy a car in the UK, how much does it cost to transfer the registration at the DVLA into your name? |
| 08:28.34 | morsing | nothing |
| 08:28.37 | Leeds | SlayerXP: nothing, AFAIK |
| 08:28.40 | SlayerXP | correct. |
| 08:28.47 | SlayerXP | care to have a guess at how much it costs in norway? |
| 08:29.01 | morsing | SlayerXP: If I want to take the train to work, how much does it cost me? |
| 08:29.38 | SlayerXP | morsing: a single from steinkjer to trondheim is about £35 |
| 08:29.42 | Leeds | morsing: depends on where you work, of course |
| 08:29.54 | SlayerXP | 25, not 35 |
| 08:30.05 | morsing | SlayerXP: I don't believe that somehow |
| 08:30.09 | Leeds | my underground ticket here, once I start work, will be about 70p per day for the return journey |
| 08:30.10 | SlayerXP | the car transfers costs 600 quid |
| 08:30.14 | SlayerXP | morsing: I'm not asking you too |
| 08:30.27 | morsing | Single from Watford to Birgmingham is £92 |
| 08:30.35 | SlayerXP | fuel costs about 120 pence per litre |
| 08:30.37 | morsing | That's 100 miles |
| 08:31.02 | SlayerXP | a pineapple costs about 5 pounds |
| 08:31.40 | Leeds | morsing: why the fuck would you do a 200 mile commute? |
| 08:31.46 | SlayerXP | my electricity bill for one year was £2500 |
| 08:31.48 | morsing | Leeds: Matt Wood did |
| 08:32.01 | Leeds | ah, of course... |
| 08:32.06 | Leeds | I don't know who he is and don't care |
| 08:32.23 | morsing | I can't believe my starting contracting started this |
| 08:32.46 | morsing | You people suck. I'm just going to pay myself everything that comes into my business account |
| 08:33.13 | SlayerXP | morsing: then I expect you to be out of business inside 6 months, with a hefty tax bill to pay. |
| 08:34.03 | morsing | Cool |
| 08:34.13 | morsing | You still suck though |
| 08:36.23 | Leeds | morsing: quite seriously... |
| 08:36.55 | Leeds | you need to sit down with a bunch of numbers, preferably someone professional who both knows how numbers work and what you're likely to get as a contractor, and work out your financial situation |
| 08:37.25 | morsing | Leeds: That's the first sensible thing anyone has said today! |
| 08:37.36 | SlayerXP | 3500 a week net is very very unrealistic income for a new contractor |
| 08:37.37 | Leeds | and you need to do it ASAP, if not sooner |
| 08:37.40 | Kitty | morsing: you going to be a filthy contractor ? |
| 08:37.46 | morsing | That's why I've hired an accountant and made an appointment with my bank |
| 08:37.49 | Leeds | SlayerXP: week??? I assumed he meant month |
| 08:37.51 | morsing | Kitty: Yes :) |
| 08:37.57 | SlayerXP | a month, I meant |
| 08:38.13 | Leeds | don't think any of us here are £3500-a-week people |
| 08:38.29 | Kitty | EEWWWWW |
| 08:39.01 | SlayerXP | Leeds: I earned that a couple of times when Yahoo invoked the "on call" part of my contract with them |
| 08:42.05 | morsing | SlayerXP: WFrom: Support |
| 08:42.05 | morsing | Sent: 19 March 2007 08:41 |
| 08:42.05 | morsing | To: 'David.Prothero@uk.delarue.com' |
| 08:42.37 | morsing | So FUSCKING KEYBORAD!!! |
| 08:42.58 | morsing | SlayerXP: So, what do you think I will be getting as a first time contractor? |
| 08:43.47 | morsing | Daily rate wise? |
| 08:43.53 | SlayerXP | depends what you're doing |
| 08:43.58 | SlayerXP | and for how long you're doing it |
| 08:44.00 | morsing | AIX obviously |
| 08:44.12 | Leeds | morsing: I think you'll be getting nothing for a while |
| 08:44.20 | morsing | Ha ha :) |
| 08:44.27 | SlayerXP | leeds isn't joking |
| 08:44.34 | morsing | Ha ha :) |
| 08:44.45 | morsing | So you're suggesting charity work? |
| 08:44.47 | Leeds | do you have any reason to believe you'll be working immediately? |
| 08:44.55 | morsing | I'm working now... |
| 08:44.55 | Leeds | you have something signed? or pre-signed? |
| 08:44.58 | SlayerXP | you can expect _at least_ 30 days between invoicing someone and getting the cash. |
| 08:45.13 | Kitty | atleast |
| 08:45.22 | Kitty | if you are working public sector, expect 60+ |
| 08:45.25 | morsing | And? As long as I'm getting paid I can handle that |
| 08:45.37 | Kitty | on all my invoices I say 10 days to pay, that way I get paid in 30 |
| 08:45.40 | morsing | I've got a good credit score as well |
| 08:45.53 | SlayerXP | morsing: what does that have to do with your company? |
| 08:46.06 | Kitty | if you say 30 you get paid in 60, if you say 60, you don't get paid |
| 08:46.23 | Leeds | morsing: credit is for Christmas, not for life |
| 08:46.33 | SlayerXP | morsing: also familiarise yourself with the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Act. you'll need it. |
| 08:47.15 | Leeds | morsing: do you have any solicitors as friends who can write you the odd letter for free/cheap? |
| 08:50.24 | *** join/#gllug mumperer (n=donald@rose963.demon.co.uk) |
| 08:50.43 | Leeds | mumperer: you are a man of wisdom, right? |
| 08:51.40 | mumperer | Hi - no, just age, but if you believe it who am i to spoil your day? |
| 08:51.52 | Leeds | can you please beat some into morsing? |
| 08:51.56 | morsing | Werll, just got a phone call about a possibly 12mth contract. It sounded like a perfect match |
| 08:52.01 | morsing | £50/day |
| 08:52.04 | morsing | £350/day |
| 08:52.34 | morsing | SlayerXP: It means that my bank will help me out if I don't get a salary for two months |
| 08:52.52 | morsing | mumperer! |
| 08:53.00 | mumperer | Wisdom = violence. Yup. OK. Now - beat just what into morsing? |
| 08:53.16 | morsing | mumperer: What do you want to say? |
| 08:53.49 | mumperer | I've got a luvverly bunch of coconuts - why do you upset leeds? |
| 08:54.06 | morsing | mumperer: I don't know what Leeds is trying to say... |
| 08:54.26 | mumperer | Oh, but he's nice ... |
| 08:58.44 | Leeds | mmm... sushi |
| 08:59.47 | mumperer | In this temple of communication, conversation seems difficult .... Now then, when my father swam in Kowloon harbour in the twenties he said there were a lot of nice people there - does anyone know any VERY old swimmers in HK? |
| 08:59.50 | Leeds | mumperer: morsing is in what seems to SlayerXP and I to be a rather untenable financial situation, combined with some unrealistic expectations of life as a contractor |
| 09:00.12 | Leeds | one does not swim in the harbour by choice, nowadays |
| 09:01.37 | mumperer | Oooo, ech! Contractors=consultants=NewLabourExploiters=Death Of Reason. Get SlayerXP to screw the manager's wife for him? |
| 09:01.46 | SlayerXP | ? |
| 09:01.52 | SlayerXP | is she cute? |
| 09:02.09 | mumperer | Didn't think I knew that, eh? |
| 09:04.20 | mumperer | But on to matters financial: I put my hard-earned pennies and all my political will into the basis of the welfare state and now look at what the management's done to pensions! How about explaining the death of the market to the bank manager? |
| 09:04.27 | morsing | And just got another call... |
| 09:05.44 | morsing | Leeds: Explain to me where I'm being unrealistic? You and SlayerXP seems to imply that I will be doing voluntary work for a year or so without invoicing anyone? Is that correct? |
| 09:06.06 | Kitty | no |
| 09:06.09 | Kitty | you will bedoing work |
| 09:06.12 | Kitty | and invoicing people |
| 09:06.15 | Kitty | and they wont be paying |
| 09:06.17 | Kitty | thats the problem |
| 09:06.18 | Leeds | mumperer: don't be silly... pensions come from banks/insurance companies, not from the state! |
| 09:06.21 | mumperer | Good socialist activity I'd say ... |
| 09:06.22 | Kitty | you're a contractor |
| 09:06.26 | Kitty | on the list of creditors |
| 09:06.28 | Kitty | you are way down |
| 09:06.29 | Leeds | Kitty: that's assuming he's working full-time |
| 09:06.54 | morsing | Leeds: Explain to me again what the problem is? |
| 09:06.59 | morsing | Slowly this time |
| 09:07.19 | Kitty | morsing: I think, from what I can see, you are being somewhat niave, in your approach to this |
| 09:07.25 | Kitty | contractors get paid shit loads cos of the risk |
| 09:07.30 | Kitty | its not an easy area to break into |
| 09:07.31 | morsing | Right.... I'm aware of that |
| 09:07.33 | Leeds | morsing: the problem is that your outgoings are huge and you have no idea of the legal, financial, tax-al, and practical issues you're taking on |
| 09:07.40 | Kitty | and there i always always a dark cloud lingering over you |
| 09:07.44 | Kitty | you can be fired at any time |
| 09:07.51 | SlayerXP | no, he can't be fired |
| 09:07.52 | Kitty | and worse yet, many companies don't pay contractos |
| 09:08.01 | SlayerXP | his contract can be terminated at next-to-zero notice, though |
| 09:08.07 | Kitty | I have a friend who contracts who is still trying to get payment for some work he did in 2003 |
| 09:08.18 | Kitty | SlayerXP: same thing in effect |
| 09:08.26 | morsing | I've never said it was. Look, I've got 6-7 friends doing contracting and they've told me for years to do it. I've up until now said no because of all these reasons... Now I'm finally taking the step |
| 09:08.34 | SlayerXP | not really, an employee being fired can expect to be paid :) |
| 09:08.43 | Leeds | SlayerXP: well, he could be fired for by his shell company, but it's pretty unlikely |
| 09:08.43 | morsing | Leeds: That's what my accountant is for |
| 09:09.03 | Leeds | morsing: if your accountant isn't a raving fool, she'll give you the same advice we are |
| 09:09.25 | morsing | You're not giving me advice, you're just telling me not too do it |
| 09:09.27 | mumperer | Which is? |
| 09:09.47 | SlayerXP | we're not telling you not to so it |
| 09:09.52 | morsing | And I'm in pretty high demand. I know you find that hard to believe but I am. And I'm pretty skilled as well. |
| 09:10.01 | Leeds | mumperer: to lower his outgoings, fast and hard, and to be realistic in his expectations |
| 09:10.07 | SlayerXP | we're telling you to expect to have trouble earning 3500 net |
| 09:10.14 | Kitty | morsing: I think its great, go do it, just do be aware of what can, and may well happen |
| 09:10.48 | morsing | Leeds: That's what I'm doing! How many times do I have to tell you? Sell the car and pay off the loans and remortgage. How is that now lowering my outgoings? |
| 09:10.49 | Leeds | morsing: the time to do it is when you've got cash in the bank to soak up the risk, not when you've got large outgoings and debts |
| 09:10.53 | mumperer | So. Telling someone who's worked hard to get where he/she is that you wouldn't start from there, eh? |
| 09:11.17 | morsing | mumperer: Huh? |
| 09:11.38 | SlayerXP | morsing: when I started contracting, I had 6 months of money in the bank. |
| 09:11.57 | morsing | Leeds: I've got cash in my house... |
| 09:12.06 | Kitty | morsing: thats a heavy risk! |
| 09:12.08 | morsing | SlayerXP: I'm never going to get that |
| 09:12.10 | Leeds | no you haven't - you've got equity |
| 09:12.21 | morsing | Which can my turned into cash... |
| 09:12.38 | Leeds | equity != cash, or I could live in HK for a year or two on the equity on my place in London |
| 09:12.41 | morsing | Kitty: I'll be selling my house if I don't do it anyway. One way or the other... |
| 09:13.02 | morsing | Man, I can't believe how difficult you people are :) |
| 09:13.16 | morsing | Why not try to help and be supportive instead? |
| 09:13.19 | Kitty | morsing: ultimately its your call, we are just talking you through it to make sure you are aware of whats going on |
| 09:13.30 | Kitty | morsing: and you have had 3 calls this morning |
| 09:13.34 | morsing | Kitty: That's fine but Leeds and SlayerXP are just being stupid |
| 09:13.36 | Kitty | have you accepted yet |
| 09:13.45 | Kitty | morsing: cynical, not stupid |
| 09:13.56 | morsing | First call looked very promising. Starting next month or so, 12mth contract |
| 09:14.09 | Leeds | I still think you need to do a total financial analysis of your life - more than just meeting with an accountant to discuss setting up your company |
| 09:14.18 | morsing | I need interviewing first which normally isn't a problem |
| 09:14.28 | morsing | Leeds: By whom? |
| 09:14.36 | morsing | GnuCash? |
| 09:14.42 | Leeds | a professional |
| 09:15.12 | morsing | Like my bank? Not an accountant? |
| 09:15.16 | mumperer | Leeds is heavily correct ... says experience |
| 09:16.09 | mumperer | Accountants lied for Enron ... |
| 09:16.16 | morsing | Look, right now I'm in permanent employment. If I get this 12mth contract I'm rolling at least. And in my line of work contractors don't normally get kicked out. |
| 09:16.21 | Leeds | morsing: if you were good at managing your finances, you wouldn't be in the situation you're in now |
| 09:16.34 | morsing | Leeds: You're right |
| 09:16.41 | morsing | I'm getting better though |
| 09:16.53 | Leeds | so take professional advice before making such a major chance in your circumstances |
| 09:16.55 | morsing | And starting to use tools to keep track and forecast |
| 09:17.28 | Kitty | morsing: what sort of contractor are you?! |
| 09:19.23 | morsing | AIX |
| 09:19.25 | morsing | Sysadm |
| 09:19.42 | Kitty | thats not contracting |
| 09:19.46 | Kitty | thats masochism :p |
| 09:19.55 | morsing | Right... |
| 09:20.13 | morsing | The best thing about it is that there are very few of us :) |
| 09:20.31 | Kitty | its still masochistic :p |
| 09:20.53 | hali | at least therer is smit |
| 09:20.58 | hali | -r |
| 09:21.06 | Leeds | smit? |
| 09:21.23 | hali | Leeds: the fancy pants config gui tool for AIX |
| 09:21.29 | Leeds | oh |
| 09:21.45 | Leeds | last time I had any dealing with AIX was in 1999 or so |
| 09:21.50 | hali | it's got one good feature though, mksysb |
| 09:22.00 | hali | creates a bootable backup tape of the system |
| 09:25.39 | bilarh_ | honestly, what a fucking cunt |
| 09:25.40 | bilarh_ | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6464783.stm |
| 09:26.37 | hali | why? |
| 09:26.54 | hali | i think the basic concept is a great idea |
| 09:27.15 | morsing | I'm gonna be rich . lalalalal .... :) |
| 09:27.16 | hali | if you pollute more than you "have to", pay for it |
| 09:29.34 | antiphase | An extra 200 quid is at most 4 tanksful of gas in your average "big" car though, which I'm sure the people he is trying to target will realise quickly |
| 09:31.03 | Leeds | so glad I don't have a car... |
| 09:31.28 | Leeds | so glad I live somewhere where you don't need one |
| 09:31.53 | Leeds | that said, I'm off to jump on the train home and go to the gym |
| 09:31.57 | morsing | I hate being dependant on a car |
| 09:32.10 | Leeds | *a* car? |
| 09:32.20 | Leeds | anyway, it's your choice |
| 09:33.54 | morsing | No in England it's not. Takes me 2:50hx2 an £36 to get to and from work |
| 09:34.22 | hali | takes me about 25 mins and £1.50 |
| 09:34.43 | morsing | hali: Same for me when I lived in Copenhagen |
| 09:34.51 | morsing | Didn't need a car there |
| 09:35.01 | Kitty | takes me about 10 seconds, and 8ft to get to work |
| 09:35.31 | hali | Kitty: 14ft if you grab a coffee on the way to work? |
| 09:35.46 | Kitty | something like that |
| 09:39.18 | morsing | Kitty: BTW - Sorry but I can't make it this Easter :( Have to go visit family |
| 09:42.41 | Kitty | ok |
| 09:45.01 | *** join/#gllug asht_007 (n=asht_007@host-212-158-220-82.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 09:48.36 | morsing | asht_007! |
| 09:51.17 | asht_007 | hey morsing |
| 09:57.28 | morsing | asht_007: How are you? |
| 09:57.35 | asht_007 | yeh not too bad |
| 09:57.42 | asht_007 | what u up to |
| 09:58.26 | morsing | Good thanks |
| 10:05.04 | bilarh_ | antiphase: exactly, it's just another tax grab by gordon brown |
| 10:05.37 | bilarh_ | i fucking hate his guts... I hope that he gets voted prime minister and then loses the next election by a 50% margin |
| 10:06.01 | bilarh_ | all his done for this country is increase taxes to a 20 year high |
| 10:06.24 | bilarh_ | and he spent loads of money on his 'great' PFI schemes |
| 10:06.40 | bilarh_ | so now we'll be paying for schools etc of today for another 30 years |
| 10:07.00 | bilarh_ | he's just like a credit card junkie, but using someone elses money |
| 10:07.16 | bilarh_ | technically, so's a credit card junkie, i suppose, but that's besides the point |
| 10:07.44 | morsing | Kitty: Are you going to Crete? |
| 10:07.45 | bilarh_ | and he's a chancellor, what the hell is he doing commenting on foreign affairs, internal affairs and all sorts of randomness? |
| 10:07.57 | bilarh_ | it's not in his merit |
| 10:07.57 | Kitty | yus |
| 10:08.36 | bilarh_ | in fact, i hope there's a labour wide vote and he loses out to some back bencher |
| 10:09.55 | morsing | Kitty: What plans are you having for accomodation? |
| 10:10.19 | bilarh_ | morsing: i've read back from the start of your contracting discussions |
| 10:10.35 | morsing | bilarh_: Thanks |
| 10:10.49 | bilarh_ | morsing: how much are your monthly outgoings really? |
| 10:11.05 | bilarh_ | morsing: i'll give you my breakdown |
| 10:11.21 | Kitty | morsing: probably camp |
| 10:11.25 | morsing | bilarh_: I have a feeling that being a Linux contractor and a contractor in some enterprise niche system is not really comparable |
| 10:11.29 | morsing | Kitty: Cool |
| 10:11.37 | morsing | bilarh_: About £2800 |
| 10:11.52 | morsing | Can be reduced to £2200 with a bit of work |
| 10:12.46 | bilarh_ | all our bills come in at less than 400 a month, and that's including two mobile phones |
| 10:12.48 | morsing | Quote from a friend I just emailed: |
| 10:12.48 | morsing | Not unrealistic at all. I've had monthly paychecks for £5600 before :) |
| 10:12.50 | bilarh_ | and internet |
| 10:13.34 | bilarh_ | that's for a post war two bed semi |
| 10:13.41 | bilarh_ | with single glazing |
| 10:13.44 | morsing | Quote from a friend from last week: |
| 10:13.45 | morsing | I earn 110K a year gross, and around 60k take home, maybe more. |
| 10:13.53 | morsing | That's £5k/mth |
| 10:14.09 | bilarh_ | we spend about 250 on food, including take aways and restaurants (maybe 300 some months) |
| 10:14.11 | morsing | bilarh_: In Lapland? |
| 10:14.18 | bilarh_ | no, in london, fool :) |
| 10:14.23 | morsing | Ahh... |
| 10:14.49 | morsing | :) |
| 10:14.54 | bilarh_ | what i'm saying is that it must be possible to live for less than 2200 a month if you're single |
| 10:15.38 | bilarh_ | when i came here, i managed on an average of 350 per month for the first whole year (but that was excluding rent), and i was out at least 3 evenings a week and i had a gym membership that was 50 quid per month |
| 10:15.39 | morsing | Well, I can get my fixed outgoings down to about £1400 I think. |
| 10:15.48 | bilarh_ | is that including your mortgage and fuel etc? |
| 10:16.01 | morsing | Not including fuel which is about £300/mth |
| 10:16.13 | morsing | So, £1700.mth |
| 10:16.19 | morsing | Then food etc... |
| 10:16.23 | bilarh_ | fuel would be tax deductible if you're a business though, so that lowers it a bit |
| 10:16.26 | bilarh_ | food on top? |
| 10:16.27 | morsing | Cool |
| 10:16.33 | morsing | Yes, food/ |
| 10:16.39 | bilarh_ | (i think it is at least) |
| 10:16.46 | bilarh_ | how big is your mortgage? |
| 10:17.29 | morsing | £1010/mth atm but just got a call from my mortgage adviser. He says he can consolidate my loans and overdraft into my mortgage for £1098/mth |
| 10:17.41 | morsing | Which would save me £200/mth |
| 10:17.53 | bilarh_ | but in the long term it would cost you a lot more, no? |
| 10:18.02 | bilarh_ | but then i guess the issue here is one of cash flow |
| 10:18.30 | bilarh_ | the thing with contracting is that it's not fixed income |
| 10:18.43 | bilarh_ | well, it can be for a while, but it's like someone pointed out earlier very high risk |
| 10:19.04 | bilarh_ | the risk is that a) you may be fired wiht no notice, and b) you may not be paid |
| 10:19.18 | morsing | I am fully aware of that. |
| 10:19.34 | bilarh_ | cool :) |
| 10:19.49 | bilarh_ | but what it all means is that you need a good buffer |
| 10:19.59 | bilarh_ | at least a minimum of 3 months salary, i'd say |
| 10:20.00 | bilarh_ | pe |
| 10:20.05 | bilarh_ | preferrably more |
| 10:20.49 | morsing | That's fine. I can easily do that but as I said I'm in much, much higher demand than your avarage Linux guru |
| 10:20.53 | bilarh_ | not trying to piss on your chips, here, but just be realistic about what you can earn and that some months you may not earn anything |
| 10:21.15 | bilarh_ | that's good for you :) |
| 10:21.16 | morsing | I know :) That's exactly why I've said no to contracting for years |
| 10:21.18 | morsing | 10:13 < bilarh_> with single glazing |
| 10:21.24 | cpufreak | morsing: just get a mortgage you can overpay into |
| 10:21.30 | cpufreak | and which you can take holidays from |
| 10:21.31 | morsing | Crap mouse, sorry |
| 10:21.40 | cpufreak | with my mortgage, I can take breaks whenever I want, provided I overpay |
| 10:21.42 | morsing | cpufreak: No - that would be stupid |
| 10:21.47 | morsing | Ok |
| 10:21.58 | cpufreak | and can also take money out of, provided I've overpaid too |
| 10:22.01 | bilarh_ | overpaying a mortgage is not stupid :P |
| 10:22.12 | morsing | bilarh_: It is indeed very stupid... |
| 10:22.14 | bilarh_ | it's probably the most efficient saving's scheme you can have |
| 10:22.19 | cpufreak | better to put money into the mortgage, than put it in savings |
| 10:22.22 | morsing | It is most certainly not |
| 10:22.23 | cpufreak | as then you don't pay tax on interest. |
| 10:22.30 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: exactly :) |
| 10:22.32 | morsing | It's definately not |
| 10:22.38 | cpufreak | so you save 22% |
| 10:22.41 | cpufreak | or 40% |
| 10:22.43 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: it's like an ISA with no limits :) |
| 10:22.46 | cpufreak | or whatever it is |
| 10:22.57 | cpufreak | bilarh_: mine's limited by the size of my mortgage |
| 10:23.06 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: hrm... i suppose :) |
| 10:23.25 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: but you could just get another mortgage for another asset, but it leaves you open to asset price fluctuations :) |
| 10:23.43 | bilarh_ | morsing: why do you think it's stupid to overpay a mortgage? |
| 10:24.33 | bilarh_ | morsing: anyway, you should definitely go into contracting if you want to give it a go, but do it with both eyes open and take off the rose tinted specs |
| 10:26.12 | morsing | bilarh_: I'm not going into a mortgage discussion with people here (I actually have work to do and IRC is interrupring me) but a mortgage is low interest and long term which is why a healthy inflation rate (currently 3%+, has been steady 2.8% for a decade or more) is giving to a big helping hand in getting rid of your mortgage |
| 10:26.17 | morsing | Final word... |
| 10:26.28 | morsing | s/interrupring/interupting/ |
| 10:26.41 | morsing | s/to/you/ |
| 10:27.36 | bilarh_ | morsing: in that case i suggest you change your mortgage to interest only with no repayment vehicle :) |
| 10:27.39 | hali | if irc is so disruptive a nice ctrl-a d or simply /quit should take care of that |
| 10:28.08 | cpufreak | morsing: yeh but if you put say an extra 10k in your mortgage, which you can take out at anytime, its there as an insurance policy effectively. |
| 10:28.21 | bilarh_ | morsing: also, that viewpoint conveniently ignores that savings would also be deflated by inflation... |
| 10:37.36 | antiphase | Classic. "I'm really busy and you're distracting me, and I happen to be wrong, but ITS YOUR FAULT" ;) |
| 10:39.32 | bilarh_ | just for anyone who's interested in the merits of overpayments, i've just made some calculations |
| 10:39.36 | bilarh_ | example |
| 10:39.55 | bilarh_ | say you have a 200k mortgage and you want to repay it over 25 years (so the standard term on a pretty average mortgage) |
| 10:40.24 | bilarh_ | the repayment comes up at 1169 pcm at 5% interest rates |
| 10:40.39 | bilarh_ | if you didn't overpay, over the term you'd pay 143328 pounds interest |
| 10:41.10 | bilarh_ | if you did overpay 200pcm, the interest you'd pay would be 104503 pounds and it would take 18.5 years to clear (note about the above, it's actually a 24.5 year term) |
| 10:41.35 | SlayerXP | i have an offset mortgage |
| 10:41.45 | SlayerXP | so I automatically overpay every single penny I'm not actually using |
| 10:41.50 | bilarh_ | if you were to put 200 pcm into savings account netting 4% pa gross (so minus tax) over 25 years you'd get 102825 pounds (capital + interest) |
| 10:41.55 | cpufreak | what I did was get a 180k mortgage, and put 80k into it straight off |
| 10:42.19 | cpufreak | so that if I want to pull out some money for some investment over the next 5 years, I can do, without renegociating |
| 10:42.27 | bilarh_ | if you overpaid and then saved 1369 (1169 + 200) for the six years difference, you'd get 11193 pounds |
| 10:42.37 | bilarh_ | 111193 pounds, even |
| 10:42.41 | bilarh_ | now, |
| 10:43.08 | bilarh_ | overpayments and savings option: 111193 saved - 104503 pounds paid = + 6690 pounds |
| 10:43.40 | bilarh_ | no overpayments but savings option: 102825 saved - 143328 pounds paid = - 40503 |
| 10:43.54 | bilarh_ | so, over 25 years with overpayments you're better off to the tune of 50 k |
| 10:44.03 | bilarh_ | or at least 46 :) |
| 10:45.02 | bilarh_ | so, imo overpayments (especially with offset mortgage) is a no brainer as the offset mortgage still gets the nice tax breaks that a plain vanilla overpayment gets |
| 10:45.28 | bilarh_ | not that i'd want to rub anyones nose in those figures, of course ;-) |
| 10:46.31 | SlayerXP | bilarh_: do your calculations take into account the 20% tax on interest earnings? |
| 10:46.46 | cpufreak | best thing to do is well, is to do what I'm doing and move to holland |
| 10:46.58 | cpufreak | as for the first 3 years of living there you get 30% of your income tax free |
| 10:47.14 | bilarh_ | slayerxp: yeah... actually, you can probably get 5% on your savings, but seeing as most of us probably pay 40% tax, i went for 4% with a 22% tax rate |
| 10:47.23 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: neat :D |
| 10:57.34 | rhowe | Well yeah, if you want to pay less tax, leave the UK :) |
| 10:57.48 | cpufreak | after 3 years in holland it gets expensive.. |
| 10:57.49 | hali | move to sweden! |
| 10:57.50 | hali | ... or not |
| 10:57.53 | cpufreak | as high tax rate is 52% |
| 10:58.10 | cpufreak | and BPM (car registration tax) is 45.2% of the car's value |
| 11:12.49 | *** join/#gllug goibhniu (n=cillian@grail1.oxfam.org.uk) |
| 11:43.02 | hali | has anyone delt wit RIPE recently? |
| 11:43.16 | hali | how cheeky are they about PI-space these days? |
| 11:44.52 | *** join/#gllug kjalil (n=kjalil@host81-137-0-173.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 11:44.58 | kjalil | hello people |
| 11:45.13 | kjalil | can anyone help me with choosing a linux server? |
| 11:45.29 | wethrin | Choose that one *points* |
| 11:45.32 | boudiccas | kjalil; have that one over there |
| 11:46.34 | kjalil | hey that is a brilliant server! thanks! :( |
| 11:46.41 | boudiccas | there you go, we've narrowed the choice down to two |
| 11:47.02 | boudiccas | kjawhat are you criteria? |
| 11:47.08 | wethrin | kjalil: We can be more helpful if you give us more information |
| 11:47.39 | kjalil | hmm, the boss wants to get a new server which is enterprise-ready, well-supported and has a good gui for configuration, etc |
| 11:47.51 | kjalil | i'm thinking RHEL or Suse |
| 11:47.59 | wethrin | enterprise ready? |
| 11:48.07 | wethrin | You be wanting a good bit o' Sun kit, then |
| 11:48.10 | kjalil | wethrin: buzzword-compliant :) |
| 11:48.12 | boudiccas | well-supported? by what? |
| 11:48.13 | bilarh_ | what does 'enterprise ready' actually mean? :) |
| 11:48.23 | wethrin | bilarh_: Hot-swappable everything? |
| 11:48.37 | wethrin | Or warm-swappable at least (like the E4k) |
| 11:48.38 | bilarh_ | wethrin: ah... i'm thinking sun in that case :) |
| 11:48.47 | bilarh_ | maybe aix and then get morsing as a contractor |
| 11:48.48 | wethrin | Yarr. Or decent IBM kit |
| 11:48.50 | kjalil | enterprise ready, well he wants updates, etc but most of all he MUST have an easy to use web-server, firewall config thing |
| 11:48.55 | bilarh_ | *meoow* :) |
| 11:48.57 | boudiccas | my machine is well suppoorted, it stands on two bricks |
| 11:49.17 | bilarh_ | kjalil: how about windows with iis? :) |
| 11:49.49 | kjalil | hmm, the problem with sun seems to be, for example if you want to install OTRS, you don't get an easy package for it, you have to do it manually |
| 11:49.59 | wethrin | The E4k is quite cool in that if a CPU board fails, you stick the board into low-power mode, pull it out, replace it, and then reboot at your convenience |
| 11:50.01 | bilarh_ | kjalil: i don't know if it's true any more, but i always found the gui stuff in linux sadly lacking... if you don't mind poking about in config files with a text editor it's the dogs danglies, but if you really need a gui then i would stick with windows... all imho of course |
| 11:50.06 | kjalil | he is not going to learn unix any time soon |
| 11:50.36 | wethrin | bilarh_ has a point - there's not really any proper substitute from editing the config files by hand |
| 11:50.38 | boudiccas | but is he willing to learn linux? |
| 11:50.49 | kjalil | bilarh_: you know, i've noticed a lot of high profile sites like ebay and safari oreilly using windows servers, so are they good then? |
| 11:50.50 | wethrin | YaST does quite a good job, from what I remember, of being fairly pointy-clicky |
| 11:51.03 | wethrin | Webmin's okay, too, but I'd really not trust running it on a public-facing server |
| 11:51.42 | wethrin | The trouble with Windows servers is that very often they're adminned by incompetent monkeys, because your big Windows server 'looks the same' as a desktop system |
| 11:52.07 | boudiccas | and incompetent monkeys are paid peanuts |
| 11:52.08 | wethrin | Whereas they need a properly skilled admin to look after and run properly |
| 11:52.16 | wethrin | Indeed. You get what you pay for :) |
| 11:52.28 | kjalil | yeah, this is really the problem, he is not a geek by a long shot, he thinks linux is still too *do everything yourself*, as in get server from Dell, install RHEL, buy support from RH, then buy CPanel, and install yourself. He wants an Apple XServer, because everything plus a lovely GUI comes with it |
| 11:52.47 | wethrin | I've heard good things about the XServe |
| 11:52.54 | wethrin | However, OS X *is* *not* *unix* |
| 11:52.56 | boudiccas | seems like he's made the choice |
| 11:53.07 | bilarh_ | kjalil: afaik hotmail runs on windows nowadays too |
| 11:53.08 | wethrin | And you'll have to learn NetInfo to be able to manage it properly |
| 11:53.11 | kjalil | wethrin: we've already got several xserves, and he just loves the dumb gui on it |
| 11:53.21 | kjalil | i Hate NetInfo |
| 11:53.40 | wethrin | NetInfo's not so bad. It just....takes a bit of getting used to |
| 11:54.09 | kjalil | I don't like the xserve, because, for example, if you want me to install OTRS on it, standard apache stuff is in different places, so I have to do a very custom install |
| 11:54.14 | wethrin | OTRS? |
| 11:54.32 | wethrin | Yeah, but Apache stuff is in different places depending on which distribution you use |
| 11:54.46 | kjalil | also, he likes the Admin GUI for Mail, which just uses Postfix underneath, but if you want to do anything serious in Postfix you have to edit text files anyway! |
| 11:54.47 | boudiccas | other truckers reply service = OTRS |
| 11:54.57 | cpufreak | wethrin: OSX /is/ POSIX compliant |
| 11:55.00 | kjalil | wethrin: it's a ticketing system he wants to use |
| 11:55.24 | wethrin | cpufreak: So's Windows NT, in theory :) |
| 11:56.41 | kjalil | so anyway, the thing I don't like about the XServe is, if you want to do something or have a problem, you can easily find a solution for linux on the web, but not OSX Server. Also, things are sometimes in different places and NetInfo gets in the way so normal /etc/passwd is no longer the same |
| 11:57.19 | cpufreak | and.. |
| 11:57.24 | cpufreak | "Apple Computer have stated that they will be submitting Mac OS X 10.5 and Mac OS 10.5 Server to The Open Group for certification as a UNIX® 03 system." |
| 11:57.33 | cpufreak | http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/ |
| 11:58.04 | kjalil | cpufreak: it's a unix system, yes, but he is never going to maintain it, and it causes me aggravation figuring this stuff out. |
| 11:58.39 | kjalil | anyway, he is asking the question now of whether he should go linux, but I don't think he will |
| 11:58.48 | cpufreak | he said hit wssn't Unix, I was pointing it out it mostly is. |
| 11:58.53 | cpufreak | just go with Windows 2003 R2 then |
| 11:58.55 | cpufreak | and stop whinging |
| 11:59.18 | kjalil | cpufreak: sorry for sounding like i'm whinging |
| 11:59.36 | kjalil | cpufreak: but you can forget windows, he hates it with a *passion* :) |
| 12:01.00 | kjalil | it does make me wonder though, home come more sites with good reputation are running IIS? even oreilly or ebay? is it really safe now as long as you keep your updates? |
| 12:01.26 | wethrin | The new IIS isn't so bad |
| 12:02.13 | kjalil | wethrin: does it come with tools to make it easy to manage websites, etc? like manage virtual domains? |
| 12:02.40 | wethrin | It plugs into the Microsoft Management Console |
| 12:03.33 | wethrin | What's actually so wrong with using the XServes, if that's what you've currently got? |
| 12:03.58 | wethrin | Ahh, sorry - the custom install |
| 12:04.29 | kjalil | wethrin: only that, really and his love for his guis :) he expects them to tell him everything |
| 12:05.13 | kjalil | wethrin: we just had an xserve drive with errors which the gui doesn't tell him, postfix config is done manually by me, even though there is a gui for it, etc |
| 12:05.45 | kjalil | wethrin: that's just the nature of guis trying to hide stuff from you |
| 12:06.11 | wethrin | A well-designed GUI shouldn't obstruct you from doing what you want |
| 12:07.27 | wethrin | Err, anyway.....RHEL and support SUSE are expensive |
| 12:07.36 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, it's quite a well-designed gui, but for example I had to install spamassassin, razor, amavis, etc which is not covered by the gui and is quite a big custom install. i am also afraid of an update whacking my manual work |
| 12:07.36 | wethrin | And do you really need the phone support? |
| 12:07.46 | wethrin | Point :) |
| 12:08.10 | kjalil | wethrin: oh, and did you know, our xserves regularly don't come up after a reboot, i don't know why? |
| 12:08.20 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, they look expensive |
| 12:08.39 | wethrin | Um....does anything come up on console as to why not? |
| 12:08.51 | wethrin | Are they trying to mount a filesystem from a server that's not come up yet? |
| 12:08.59 | kjalil | wethrin: imagine updating a server in some other country and it doesn't come up, it's disastrous. no, there is no admin there to help us |
| 12:09.06 | wethrin | Serial consoles++ |
| 12:09.12 | wethrin | Another reason I really like Sun kit |
| 12:09.18 | cpufreak | kjalil: IIS6 is pretty neat |
| 12:09.23 | cpufreak | IIS7 in longhorn is even better |
| 12:09.36 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: what are you doing for lunch? |
| 12:09.36 | cpufreak | as IIS6 doesn't really scale beyond ~20k configured sites |
| 12:09.40 | wethrin | Some Dell PCs had serial consoles, but they're an exception |
| 12:09.55 | kjalil | wethrin: no, not mounting anything, just simple reboot on several servers regularly fails, it's very unnerving |
| 12:09.56 | cpufreak | due to the metadb.. |
| 12:10.13 | cpufreak | kjalil: most decent servers these days have some ofrm of lights out management |
| 12:10.14 | kjalil | cpufreak: thanks, i should look into it |
| 12:10.16 | cpufreak | HP have their iLO |
| 12:10.22 | cpufreak | Dell have their god awful dRAC |
| 12:10.29 | cpufreak | Sun x64 bxoes have iLOM |
| 12:10.35 | cpufreak | ibm have something too |
| 12:10.39 | wethrin | My old Netra T1 has LOM |
| 12:10.43 | wethrin | LOM++ |
| 12:10.54 | hali | i prefer the awful dell drac over the HP iLO to be honest |
| 12:10.55 | wethrin | kjalil: Anything on console as to why? |
| 12:11.00 | cpufreak | all new sun kit (as in new designs) has iLOM which has embedded Linux. |
| 12:11.04 | kjalil | hmm, if the server is connected even to a serial console and doesn't come up, it doesn't help much, does it? |
| 12:11.08 | hali | the HP iLO is damn expensive to license as well |
| 12:11.09 | cpufreak | so the niagura2 kit will have iLOM |
| 12:11.25 | wethrin | kjalil: It does - you can often fix it from the console |
| 12:11.33 | kjalil | wethrin: i haven't got it connected to one, will have to ask the boss to set it up, which might be next year :) |
| 12:11.36 | wethrin | The only thing you can't do is stick a CD in the drive |
| 12:11.48 | cpufreak | wethrin: iLOM lets you do virtual cds over IP |
| 12:11.48 | rhowe | kjalil: You don't need to license HP's iLO if all you want is to be able to power off and on the box |
| 12:12.24 | rhowe | kjalil: If you're running a sensible OS, you can also use the remote serial console feature without plumping for an "Advanced iLO" license. |
| 12:12.30 | wethrin | cpufreak: Now that I like! |
| 12:12.31 | kjalil | wethrin: hmm, i'm inexperienced here, how do you see the console remotely? |
| 12:12.55 | rhowe | kjalil: Go to the remote serial console option. You need to have something running on the serial console though, of course. Like getty |
| 12:13.09 | wethrin | kjalil: Use a terminal server (like Cyclades, or a Cisco 2500) |
| 12:13.18 | hali | with the advanced ilo pack you get sort of a VNC session for anything.. with the basic stuff you get text mode console |
| 12:13.24 | wethrin | Or just have a serial cable plugged into another computer and use minicom |
| 12:13.40 | kjalil | wethrin: for minicom i need to be onsite, yes? |
| 12:13.40 | hali | i'd say the full iLO is way better than any terminalserver/serial access |
| 12:13.59 | cpufreak | sun's iLOM is better still from my experience |
| 12:14.06 | cpufreak | bilarh_: not sure re lunch yet |
| 12:14.13 | wethrin | kjalil: No - ssh to $machine, and run minicom on that |
| 12:14.45 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: ah ok, no worries :) i might dare upstairs, maybe |
| 12:15.16 | kjalil | wethrin: ok so leave all remote machines connected with serial cable, and if one doesn't come up, ssh to *another* machine and try to use minicom |
| 12:15.20 | wethrin | Yup |
| 12:15.40 | wethrin | this is where terminal servers come in useful - one machine, to which you connect *all* your consoles |
| 12:15.48 | cpufreak | next door has meatballs. |
| 12:16.09 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: ah, neat... |
| 12:16.15 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: i think upstairs has rats :) |
| 12:16.19 | kjalil | wethrin: ah, cool, i've never used them, i'm mostly a java dev who gets to do a lot of sysadmin stuff |
| 12:16.29 | wethrin | Ha! :) |
| 12:16.45 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, that's life :) i've set up the whole network here :) |
| 12:16.58 | wethrin | I hope you've done a professional job! |
| 12:17.37 | kjalil | wethrin: well, we're protected by a openbsd firewall which has no ports open |
| 12:17.44 | wethrin | Good man |
| 12:17.49 | wethrin | Sensible firewalls++ |
| 12:17.54 | hali | kjalil: no ipv6 enabled? |
| 12:18.02 | wethrin | Or at least IPv6 firewalled? |
| 12:18.04 | kjalil | wethrin: and i've set up several servers doing various things from cvs to web to mail to whatever they need |
| 12:18.14 | hali | considering the remote exploit in the openbsd ipv6 stack |
| 12:18.15 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah i read about the ipv6 exploit |
| 12:18.24 | wethrin | Got managed switches and colour-coded cables? |
| 12:18.44 | kjalil | wethrin: ok, good question for you guys - my boss wants to replace the openbsd machine with a Netscreen firewall, good idea? |
| 12:18.52 | wethrin | WTF is a Netscreen? |
| 12:19.02 | wethrin | My gut reaction would be HELL NO |
| 12:19.07 | kjalil | wethrin: someone told him it's a very good firewall |
| 12:19.12 | wethrin | But then, I'm an OpenBSD bigot, and love pf |
| 12:19.13 | hali | netscreen is quite nice firewall |
| 12:19.28 | hali | or at least used to be, they where bought by foundry or something like that |
| 12:19.36 | kjalil | wethrin: i have a problem with the openbsd machine, it's quite old and my boss will not let me reinstall openbsd *latest* on it i think |
| 12:19.37 | hali | cisco spin-off |
| 12:19.50 | wethrin | Why not? |
| 12:19.51 | kjalil | hali: yeah they're supposed to be quite good |
| 12:19.52 | hali | the founders of netscreen founded fortygate when foundry bought netscreen |
| 12:20.00 | wethrin | Your boss seems to need a trout of clue being applied |
| 12:20.16 | kjalil | wethrin: well, it's tough i don't think i will get a say in it |
| 12:20.18 | hali | s/foundtry/juniper/ |
| 12:20.53 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, that's life, i will just have to use whatever he gives me |
| 12:20.55 | wethrin | If the firewall's working well, why does he want to change it? |
| 12:21.28 | kjalil | wethrin: because no updates have been applied for 3 years or so, because i don't get to choose freely when I can go in and allocate my time to keep it updated |
| 12:22.15 | *** join/#gllug Cope_ (n=sanelson@88.212.149.148) |
| 12:22.21 | kjalil | wethrin: i would like to reinstall latest openbsd but after i have installed it, it will be taken away from me again and won't be updated for ages |
| 12:23.07 | wethrin | To an extent, if it's a solid firewall, it doesn't really need to be updated. Unless there's a problem with pf |
| 12:23.31 | kjalil | wethrin: the ipv6 thing does worry me though, ideally i would like to keep it updated |
| 12:23.48 | wethrin | kjalil: Sure - but if you have IPv6 firewalled, then there's nothing to worry about |
| 12:24.03 | kjalil | wethrin: another thing, aren't hardware firewalls exploitable also? especially if there is a kernel problem, they can't be updated ever? |
| 12:24.20 | kjalil | or do you re-flash them i guess |
| 12:24.26 | wethrin | Re-flash to update |
| 12:24.35 | wethrin | To an extent, there's not such thing as a hardware firewall |
| 12:24.43 | kjalil | wethrin: exactly |
| 12:25.03 | wethrin | It's all going to be running some form of software. At least netfilter, ipf, and pf are all stable products that have had many eyes looking for bugs |
| 12:25.27 | wethrin | I mostly treat my firewall as a black-box appliance |
| 12:26.21 | kjalil | well, thanks a lot guys for all your help, i hope to meet you at the next meet, i probably have seen you all but don't know the faces |
| 12:26.38 | wethrin | I'll be there on Saturday |
| 12:26.43 | wethrin | Most likely introducing the speakers |
| 12:26.54 | kjalil | kjalil: i was helping simon morris back in november with the SLED demos we were doing |
| 12:27.07 | wethrin | I don't think I was there then |
| 12:27.23 | wethrin | Open question to y'all - has anyone heard of Xyplex terminal servers? |
| 12:27.29 | kjalil | wethrin: i hope we can meet, i would learn a lot from you I think :) |
| 12:27.53 | wethrin | I'm always happy to give pointers, and good practice tips :) |
| 12:28.20 | wethrin | As I said - I'll mostly be introducing speakers, so just come up and say 'hi' |
| 12:29.15 | kjalil | wethrin: thanks, and btw i am trying to look for a sysadmin position, if you or anyone else has any openings? |
| 12:29.40 | morsing | kjalil: Go contracting. It's the way forward! |
| 12:29.43 | wethrin | Ha. I'm a student up in Durham. I used to be a sysadmin with a real job. Now I just do it for fun |
| 12:30.12 | kjalil | morsing: hmm, i've never done that, sounds scary |
| 12:30.26 | wethrin | kjalil: Keep an eye out on the list, though - recently jobs have been coming up fairly often |
| 12:30.33 | kjalil | wethrin: so you do temp jobs and such? |
| 12:31.00 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, i've been doing that, thanks |
| 12:31.50 | kjalil | so how do i put faces to the irc nicks? |
| 12:33.49 | wethrin | kjalil: Well....'fun' mostly means at home. But I'm moving towards using managed switches and fibre |
| 12:34.04 | wethrin | http://www.gllug.org.uk/index.php?/archives/9-IRC-Faces.html |
| 12:35.18 | kjalil | thanks |
| 12:36.16 | kjalil | btw, i remember people were they couldn't get in touch with simon morris, did they manage to? |
| 12:36.23 | kjalil | were saying |
| 12:36.27 | wethrin | Yes, he's back and alive now |
| 12:36.33 | wethrin | ~seen mozrat |
| 12:37.18 | ibot | mozrat is currently on #gllug (18h 39m 35s). Has said a total of 14 messages. Is idling for 17h 55m 55s, last said: 'bye everyone!'. |
| 12:37.44 | kjalil | cool |
| 12:40.31 | kjalil | hmm, can anyone help with a GPG keys error i'm getting when trying to update a debian box? |
| 12:42.22 | kjalil | here is the error, if someone can help |
| 12:42.29 | kjalil | this is what i get with apt-get update |
| 12:42.30 | kjalil | http://pastebin.ca/401488 |
| 12:43.04 | wethrin | Did you run 'apt-get update'? |
| 12:43.52 | kjalil | wethrin: that's what I get each time i run it |
| 12:44.15 | kjalil | wethrin: another box with the exact same sources.list has no problem |
| 12:44.40 | wethrin | Do you have gpg installed on both boxes? |
| 12:44.50 | kjalil | wethrin: hmm, but it seems the /etc/apt folder differs |
| 12:44.54 | kjalil | wethrin: yes |
| 12:45.02 | *** join/#gllug dick_turpin (n=dick_tur@host217-34-163-21.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 12:45.24 | wethrin | what's different in /etc/apt, then? |
| 12:45.31 | kjalil | wethrin: it's actually gnupg, yes? |
| 12:45.34 | kjalil | wethrin: ok hang on |
| 12:45.40 | wethrin | Probably, yes |
| 12:46.07 | wethrin | I should probably point out I'm not really a Debian man, and don't use gpg. So don't get your hopes up :) |
| 12:47.24 | kjalil | thanks for trying, anyway, here is the difference |
| 12:47.26 | kjalil | http://pastebin.ca/401492 |
| 12:47.39 | *** join/#gllug goibhniu (n=cillian@grail1.oxfam.org.uk) |
| 12:50.40 | wethrin | Copy the files across? |
| 12:50.48 | wethrin | And take a backup of the old stuff! |
| 12:55.47 | kjalil | wethrin: yeah, will do that now |
| 13:01.08 | kjalil | bbl |
| 13:01.46 | wethrin | later! |
| 13:09.37 | morsing | http://www.aixperts.co.uk/Certificate_of_incorporation.pdf |
| 13:25.17 | goibhniu | morsing! congratulations! |
| 13:33.04 | morsing | goibhniu: THANK-YOU :) |
| 13:35.02 | clive-h | Good afternoon |
| 13:35.19 | dick_turpin | morsing: I'm trying to read your cert but adobe keeps crashing on the W2K box grrr |
| 13:37.50 | dick_turpin | morsing: Aha, so you'll be good to tap for some cash in 18 moths time then? |
| 13:38.35 | morsing | dick_turpin: More like 3 years according to Slayer... |
| 13:39.24 | dick_turpin | morsing: I read somewhere the bench mark for business success (I.e. still going) was the first 18 months |
| 13:40.20 | dick_turpin | ibot: throw water over goibhniu |
| 13:41.16 | goibhniu | dick_turpin: I know you're the one putting ibot up to this!! |
| 13:41.45 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: Me? sweat innocent moi? |
| 13:42.22 | goibhniu | dick_turpin: ibot's not listening to you anymore ... ibot thinks you're mean |
| 13:44.53 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: He'll have to join the line, I think the end of which is in Nova Scotia :-P |
| 13:45.24 | morsing | wethrin: You know, we should move the Gllug meets to SL |
| 13:46.33 | dick_turpin | Right, anyone here got literary knowledge? I'm trying to track down one of those moral/fable type stories |
| 13:48.08 | goibhniu | dick_turpin: does it involve dwarves? |
| 13:48.43 | goibhniu | morsing: is there an SLLUG? |
| 13:49.52 | *** join/#gllug Duski (n=chatzill@chello082119110063.chello.sk) |
| 13:50.40 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: Na, I remeber a story from my youth about the animals meeting to choose a leader or something anyway Man didnt really figure and watched this meeting and decided they all needed defending so went home and invented the club! (To beat people over the head with) |
| 13:52.16 | goibhniu | dick_turpin: never heard of it ... sounds good though |
| 13:53.07 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: Its been doing my head in all day, typically I can remember my favorite Leo Tolstoy one no problem |
| 13:57.27 | morsing | goibhniu: Probably |
| 13:57.36 | bilarh_ | morsing: cool :) |
| 13:58.26 | clive-h | I seem to recall a linux SL client being announced |
| 13:58.59 | goibhniu | clive-h: yep it's gpl too iirc |
| 14:09.31 | morsing | It is... |
| 14:09.37 | morsing | I hate SL though |
| 14:09.50 | morsing | Duski! |
| 14:09.55 | morsing | Can't believe I missed that |
| 14:10.03 | Duski | ? |
| 14:10.34 | wethrin | Our resident greeting-bot has been having trouble keeping track of people joining the channel recently |
| 14:10.52 | Duski | ah :) |
| 14:11.26 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: If you stick se18 in my Lugfinder it brings up the site, I have found one problem all the url's need http:// prefixing on some of them |
| 14:13.44 | *** part/#gllug mumperer (n=donald@rose963.demon.co.uk) |
| 14:14.02 | *** join/#gllug mumperer (n=donald@rose963.demon.co.uk) |
| 14:14.22 | clive-h | SE18 Plumstead,Woolwich? |
| 14:14.51 | goibhniu | dick_turpin: cool out! I can't remember the url but I'll take your word for it |
| 14:16.05 | dick_turpin | goibhniu: http://www.centrosales.co.uk/lugfinder |
| 14:16.56 | wethrin | dick_turpin: Why does the postcode box have "<br />" in it by default? |
| 14:17.28 | wethrin | And your links are broken.... |
| 14:19.39 | *** join/#gllug dick_turpi1 (n=dick_tur@host217-34-163-21.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 14:19.50 | morsing | dick_turpi1! |
| 14:20.16 | dick_turpi1 | WTF whats going on?? |
| 14:20.21 | *** part/#gllug dick_turpi1 (n=dick_tur@host217-34-163-21.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 14:20.48 | *** join/#gllug dick_turpin (n=dick_tur@host217-34-163-21.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 14:20.59 | dick_turpin | Thats better |
| 14:22.02 | wethrin | Get a better ISP |
| 14:22.10 | morsing | filemon rocks! |
| 14:22.43 | dick_turpin | wethrin: We are an ISP :-P |
| 14:22.59 | wethrin | But you still use btopenworld! |
| 14:23.29 | dick_turpin | wethrin: Thats cos we resell BT services |
| 14:23.49 | wethrin | Don't they allow you to change your DNS? |
| 14:24.56 | dick_turpin | wethrin: Its not my department as such I think you'll find we have purchased xxx bandwidth and we then resell that to our customers |
| 14:28.51 | *** join/#gllug asht_007 (n=asht_007@host-212-158-220-82.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 14:39.02 | *** part/#gllug asht_007 (n=asht_007@host-212-158-220-82.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 14:51.33 | *** join/#gllug Cope (n=sanelson@88.212.149.148) |
| 14:54.24 | morsing | Cope! |
| 14:56.31 | Cope | hello old chap |
| 15:00.04 | gw280 | COPE |
| 15:09.18 | bilarh_ | anyone ever used perl shell? |
| 15:09.27 | bilarh_ | as a login shell? |
| 15:11.02 | morsing | Got an interview for Friday... |
| 15:11.38 | bilarh_ | morsing: i just thought of something, register for a VAT number as soon as possible as it's a pain in the arse to get (it takes quite a while) |
| 15:12.19 | gw280 | I'm on the train back to cambridge :D |
| 15:12.19 | gw280 | yay |
| 15:12.22 | gw280 | I love cambridge |
| 15:14.49 | morsing | bilarh_: How and why? |
| 15:15.08 | bilarh_ | morsing: so that you can claim VAT back? :) |
| 15:16.10 | goibhniu | bilarh_: don't you just get that back from the corporation tax? |
| 15:16.22 | bilarh_ | also, you have to if you plan on having a turn over more than 50k, afaik |
| 15:17.14 | bilarh_ | http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_FAQs&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_PROD_008650 |
| 15:17.21 | bilarh_ | it's 61k now apparently |
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| 15:17.49 | cpufreak | bilarh_: you can only claim VAT back on things you sell on |
| 15:18.10 | cpufreak | or something |
| 15:18.13 | cpufreak | i forget the specifics |
| 15:18.30 | cpufreak | but you can't claim VAT back on everything you buy, which lots of people seem to think you can |
| 15:18.38 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: no, you can claim it back for stuff you buy |
| 15:18.53 | bilarh_ | provided that you sold goods or services that were not vat-exempt |
| 15:19.06 | bilarh_ | as in, the way it works is that you just don't pay that much vat at the end of the year |
| 15:19.21 | cpufreak | yeh so you can only claim it back on things you use for goods/services you sell |
| 15:19.45 | bilarh_ | yeah, but it's stuff like train tickets as well, surely |
| 15:19.46 | cpufreak | or are used for services you provide |
| 15:19.46 | morsing | bilarh_: Where do I apply? |
| 15:19.51 | cpufreak | internal office stuff, or personal stuff you can't |
| 15:19.55 | cpufreak | morsing: just phone your local vat office |
| 15:19.57 | bilarh_ | and if he needs a computer etc |
| 15:20.01 | cpufreak | and a girl will come out |
| 15:20.10 | cpufreak | talk to you for an hour or so |
| 15:20.11 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: well, in theory no, in practice he can buy a new funky computer and claim it as a business expense :) |
| 15:20.31 | bilarh_ | tax sucks, it's too complicated |
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| 15:20.39 | bilarh_ | morsing: that's why you should pay for a good accountant :) |
| 15:20.41 | morsing | Jasperw! |
| 15:20.45 | morsing | bilarh_: I DO! |
| 15:21.06 | bilarh_ | morsing: oh :) i thought you said this morning you wreent, but i guess i was confused |
| 15:21.21 | bilarh_ | anyway, that vat stuff is important |
| 15:21.45 | bilarh_ | damn, it's snowing loads outside the window :) |
| 15:21.51 | morsing | bilarh_: You must have been. I've had an accountant since last week |
| 15:22.08 | cpufreak | bilarh_: its not worth fucking the tax man over |
| 15:22.12 | cpufreak | he'll fuck you back, with a tentpole |
| 15:22.23 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: hehehe |
| 15:22.32 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: well, at least for a computer you can do it |
| 15:22.46 | bilarh_ | cpufreak: because that he will probably genuinely use for business purposes |
| 15:23.10 | bilarh_ | the real fucker if you're a contractor seems to be ir35 as well |
| 15:23.33 | bilarh_ | it may be worth renting a house in iom or something and claiming to live there just to get off ir35 :) |
| 15:23.53 | goibhniu | bilarh_: I think there's a lot of hype about it ... the rules seem clear enough |
| 15:23.55 | cpufreak | you need to be abroad for >181 days/yr |
| 15:23.57 | bilarh_ | but i wouldn't advise evading taxes, of course :) |
| 15:24.05 | bilarh_ | does IOM count as abroad? |
| 15:24.15 | cpufreak | as in actually in IOM for >181 days/yr |
| 15:24.23 | bilarh_ | how would they know though? |
| 15:24.30 | bilarh_ | the bastards probably have spies, though |
| 15:24.35 | cpufreak | from your passport? |
| 15:24.39 | bilarh_ | because people are bound to abuse it in ways like that |
| 15:24.45 | bilarh_ | but it's not stamped when you go to the IOM is it? |
| 15:24.46 | cpufreak | they do check things up |
| 15:24.52 | cpufreak | no, but its swiped |
| 15:25.00 | bilarh_ | ah, bugger that then :) |
| 15:25.02 | cpufreak | all they need to do is to ask you to prove you were abroad |
| 15:25.05 | cpufreak | when you say you were |
| 15:25.38 | bilarh_ | hmm, i suppose it might be a bit tricky if you said you were on the IOM but had debit card transactions from the UK :) |
| 15:25.50 | bilarh_ | "someone stole my debit card, ossifer" |
| 15:28.18 | bilarh_ | hmm.. now the sun is shining :) |
| 15:28.21 | bilarh_ | funny old weather today |
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| 15:37.03 | morsing | Cope_! |
| 15:43.12 | *** join/#gllug Cope (n=sanelson@88.212.149.148) |
| 15:43.53 | morsing | Cope! |
| 15:48.12 | *** join/#gllug Cope (n=sanelson@88.212.149.148) |
| 15:53.46 | *** join/#gllug Cope (n=sanelson@88.212.149.148) |
| 15:55.03 | morsing | Cope! |
| 15:56.52 | hali | websphere is making my eyes hurt, i hate it |
| 15:57.04 | hali | i hate it more than i hate sybase |
| 15:57.25 | rhowe | hahaha |
| 15:57.51 | wethrin | Oh? |
| 15:58.28 | rhowe | They were trying to sell us a security assessment, check out the network, document it, try to spot loopholes etc and, in her words "make it impossible for hackers to get in and steal your data" |
| 15:58.38 | rhowe | So I just said "What? Like the IOS source code?" |
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| 15:58.50 | wethrin | :) |
| 15:58.56 | rhowe | pwned |
| 15:59.04 | wethrin | Did she hang up? |
| 15:59.23 | rhowe | Nah, she laughed and carried on with her spiel |
| 15:59.29 | rhowe | (sp?) |
| 15:59.31 | wethrin | Heh |
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| 16:07.44 | morsing | londo_! |
| 16:07.44 | morsing | Leeds! |
| 16:07.55 | morsing | Leeds: Got an interview this Friday |
| 16:08.10 | cpufreak | inteview with a vampire? |
| 16:08.13 | Leeds | good for you |
| 16:08.15 | morsing | :) |
| 16:09.25 | Leeds | hmm... the Ian of DebIan has joined Sun |
| 16:10.12 | clive-h | OpenSolaris is good |
| 16:15.11 | wethrin | Heh |
| 16:15.14 | wethrin | Doing what? |
| 16:17.17 | hali | probably working on the ubuntu port |
| 16:17.20 | hali | for sparc |
| 16:17.40 | hali | sun is putting some weight behind ubuntu these days... just to annoy redhat |
| 16:23.21 | wethrin | z00dax: ping? |
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| 17:03.25 | bilarh_ | ubuntu is great though, i love it on my desktop |
| 17:03.26 | bilarh_ | s |
| 17:03.40 | bilarh_ | it just "works" |
| 17:03.43 | bilarh_ | almost as well as windows :) |
| 17:07.02 | clive-h | I've used Redhat as my desktop for around 11 years now |
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| 18:26.31 | morsing | keithlard! |
| 18:27.32 | wethrin | people! |
| 18:27.39 | wethrin | I should go home |
| 18:32.48 | morsing | wethrin! |
| 18:50.39 | morsing | How do I install an rpm file on Ubuntu? |
| 18:52.38 | cpufreak | apt-get install alien |
| 18:52.43 | cpufreak | alien -d foo.rpm |
| 18:52.47 | cpufreak | dpkg -i foo.deb |
| 18:57.59 | morsing | Thanks |
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| 19:30.37 | trousers_ | Evening dudes! |
| 19:32.04 | boudiccas | trousers_; evening sexist! :)))) |
| 19:34.09 | trousers_ | boudiccas: You know that when I say "chaps" or "dudes" I mean everybody. |
| 19:34.31 | boudiccas | no, i don't know, i just see you excluding me |
| 19:34.42 | trousers_ | Calm down old chap :D |
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| 19:34.55 | trousers_ | Cope! |
| 19:36.40 | boudiccas | trousers_; and then you compound your error! I am =not= an old 'chap', nor a young 'chap' I am a woman! |
| 19:37.28 | trousers_ | It was intentional :P |
| 19:37.30 | boudiccas | an all embracisive term is 'folk' |
| 19:37.46 | wethrin | morsing! |
| 19:37.50 | trousers_ | wethrin! |
| 19:38.00 | wethrin | trousers! |
| 19:38.14 | wethrin | Are you coming on Saturday? |
| 19:38.24 | trousers_ | wethrin: |
| 19:38.29 | trousers_ | wethrin: Hopefully. |
| 19:38.37 | trousers_ | Let me just inform my father. |
| 19:38.45 | boudiccas | if it was intentional then you are deliberaetly being insulting under the crude guise of humour |
| 19:38.55 | wethrin | rar |
| 19:41.53 | clive-h | I see Boudiccas' point |
| 19:42.07 | boudiccas | ty clive-h |
| 19:42.32 | clive-h | I'd feel uncomfortable referrring to a woman as a chap |
| 19:42.40 | clive-h | I'm old though |
| 19:42.57 | clive-h | It's a modern usage |
| 19:43.29 | boudiccas | i find it insulting to be called a 'chap' or a 'guy' |
| 19:43.44 | clive-h | I can undderstand that |
| 19:43.57 | clive-h | understand |
| 19:44.14 | clive-h | Not somthing I'd do |
| 19:46.08 | clive-h | 'ladies and gentlemen' still has some mileage |
| 19:46.25 | clive-h | hi all is even more concise |
| 19:46.36 | boudiccas | as does 'hi folks' |
| 19:46.48 | clive-h | I rest my case |
| 19:47.27 | trousers_ | Well, I wouldn't mind being call a woman :P |
| 19:47.47 | trousers_ | wethrin: Should be coming :) |
| 19:48.02 | wethrin | rightho |
| 19:48.28 | clive-h | Hi all, hi folks seems perfectly sane to me |
| 19:49.02 | clive-h | and it's diversity friendly |
| 19:58.43 | boudiccas | but anyway, don't let my gripes stifle channel discussion |
| 19:59.29 | clive-h | You have a point |
| 19:59.38 | clive-h | I hate sexism |
| 19:59.49 | boudiccas | me too :) |
| 20:01.32 | clive-h | Some of the best sysadmins I've worked with have been women |
| 20:02.26 | clive-h | It's not just a boy's game |
| 20:16.36 | trousers_ | wethrin: Where/When is Saturday's meeting? |
| 20:17.52 | wethrin | RTF Emails :) |
| 20:18.07 | wethrin | 1.30pm start, W'min |
| 20:18.14 | trousers_ | Cheers |
| 20:19.50 | trousers_ | I will try to attend, although *hopefully* an outing with a hopefully-to-be-lady-friend will be established :) |
| 20:20.09 | wethrin | You're going to a Gllug meeting for a date? |
| 20:20.14 | wethrin | Silly fellow! |
| 20:20.19 | trousers_ | No, that's the point. |
| 20:20.42 | trousers_ | I'm trying to get together with this rather attractive lady, and it would interfere if everything goes to plan. |
| 20:20.48 | morsing | trousers_! |
| 20:20.52 | trousers_ | Which it probably won't, so no need to panic. |
| 20:21.45 | boudiccas | trousers_; take her along to the gllug meeting. she might enjoy it |
| 20:22.11 | trousers_ | boudiccas: I doubt it... Even if she says yes. |
| 20:26.55 | clive-h | Lol |
| 20:27.15 | clive-h | I've taken girlfriends to Gllug meets |
| 20:28.06 | wethrin | trousers_: Call it a day out in central london, and say you're meeting a couple of friends too |
| 20:28.43 | trousers_ | wethrin: I've settled on slightly different plans. Although a Sunday could work for me, still. She's unlikely to agree, though, so, yes. |
| 20:28.55 | wethrin | roight |
| 20:29.42 | trousers_ | But yes, I should be there. |
| 20:29.46 | trousers_ | Long time no see :) |
| 20:30.35 | wethrin | indeed |
| 20:31.13 | rhowe | ibot change 3000 thb to gbp |
| 20:33.13 | clive-h | It was 60 baht to a pound when I was there |
| 20:33.14 | morsing | wethrin's taken girl friends to Gllug meets... |
| 20:35.52 | trousers_ | morsing: That she is not yet. |
| 20:35.58 | morsing | Huh? |
| 20:36.46 | wethrin | morsing: weeeelllll............ |
| 20:36.52 | morsing | ? |
| 20:37.02 | wethrin | not for *years* :) |
| 20:39.27 | morsing | I know :) Some people here might be confused now |
| 20:39.43 | wethrin | Indeed |
| 20:39.45 | trousers_ | Indeed. |
| 20:42.05 | morsing | 5 |
| 20:42.22 | boudiccas | 4 |
| 20:42.23 | morsing | How's Jenson doing these days? |
| 20:42.37 | trousers_ | Who is Jenson?! |
| 20:42.44 | morsing | trousers_: Shut up! |
| 20:42.57 | clive-h | a F1 driver |
| 20:43.06 | morsing | Nice |
| 20:48.26 | trousers_ | ibot seen mozrat |
| 20:49.02 | ibot | mozrat is currently on #gllug (1d 2h 51m 19s). Has said a total of 14 messages. Is idling for 1d 2h 7m 39s, last said: 'bye everyone!'. |
| 20:49.03 | trousers_ | ~seen mozrat |
| 20:49.11 | ibot | mozrat is currently on #gllug (1d 2h 51m 28s). Has said a total of 14 messages. Is idling for 1d 2h 7m 48s, last said: 'bye everyone!'. |
| 20:49.12 | morsing | ~seen jenson |
| 20:49.14 | ibot | jenson <n=jenson@88-104-123-49.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #gllug, 38d 23h 50m 43s ago, saying: 'bye'. |
| 20:49.14 | morsing | ibot wake ibot |
| 20:49.21 | morsing | 38 days ago?! |
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| 21:12.25 | morsing | goibhniu! |
| 21:12.41 | goibhniu | morsing! |
| 21:17.44 | trousers_ | goibhniu! |
| 21:17.56 | trousers_ | goibhniu: Will you be present on Saturday? |
| 21:18.15 | goibhniu | trousers_!! |
| 21:18.39 | goibhniu | trousers_: I hope so ... although I have an excuse lined up |
| 21:19.41 | goibhniu | trousers_: I've got two tax forms to fill out, and I'm shit at puzzles |
| 21:20.46 | trousers_ | Hehe. |
| 21:21.23 | goibhniu | trousers_: you're gonna be there? |
| 21:26.02 | trousers_ | goibhniu: Most probably. |
| 21:31.20 | z00dax | wethrin: pong |
| 21:32.45 | trousers_ | z00dax! |
| 21:32.52 | z00dax | hey trousers_ |
| 21:33.18 | trousers_ | That curry was indeed good, as there were no after effects :) |
| 21:33.42 | wethrin | z00dax: Can you update the Gllug website? :) |
| 21:33.42 | z00dax | oh good! its been a while now... |
| 21:35.09 | trousers_ | Indeed. |
| 21:35.09 | z00dax | wethrin: yes i can - and i will in a bit - as soon as i get to a computer |
| 21:35.10 | wethrin | thanks! |
| 22:25.38 | hali | oink |
| 22:25.51 | clive-h | ping |
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| 22:29.36 | wethrin | Bong |
| 22:30.14 | hali | bomshack |
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| 23:25.27 | goblimeyW | i could use more details for the gllug meeting this saturdaygllug.org.uk is still showing febs meet |
| 23:26.02 | goblimeyW | someone know what time it is ? |
| 23:26.31 | wethrin | 1.30pm |
| 23:26.31 | wethrin | It's in |
| 23:26.32 | wethrin | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:27.18 | goblimeyW | thx |
| 23:36.33 | Leeds | morning all |
| 23:39.43 | wethrin | I can't update the website |
| 23:39.49 | antiphase | OMG |
| 23:43.06 | cpufreak | oh hell gn0w!!?!1 |