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10:09.32 | morsing | hali! |
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11:27.55 | axelS | lo |
11:47.53 | ChoHag | 11:47 -!- Do not IRC as root. |
11:48.01 | ChoHag | How about you go fuck yourself, server. |
11:48.17 | AndyMillar | heh |
12:32.28 | axelS | lol |
12:45.54 | morsing | *Sigh* |
13:46.24 | *** join/#gllug dick_turpin (~peter@host217-34-163-30.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
13:48.21 | dick_turpin | Buy our crap http://www.cafepress.co.uk/thedickturpinroadshow |
14:03.55 | ChoHag | I'm not entirely sure that 2nd pint was a good idea. |
14:07.33 | AndyMillar | why not? |
14:07.37 | morsing | dick_turpin: Has Sharon got a job yet? |
14:08.06 | dick_turpin | I'm certainly making her sweat |
14:10.26 | AndyMillar | \o/ |
14:10.30 | AndyMillar | morsing: who's Sharon?. |
14:10.38 | AndyMillar | (my cleaner's called Sharon) |
14:12.51 | morsing | Nafallo: O_o WTF!? How long have you been on this channel?S1 |
14:13.54 | Nafallo | morsing: ehrm. not sure. 80d uptime in irssi now, so at least that long :-P |
14:14.07 | Nafallo | morsing: years? :-) |
14:14.20 | morsing | Nafallo: Darn TAB-complete |
14:14.28 | morsing | AndyMillar: O_o WTF!? How long have you been on this channel?S1 |
14:14.39 | Nafallo | morsing: you wouldn't say that if you lost it :-P |
14:14.42 | dick_turpin | AndyMillar: He's on about Boudiccas |
14:14.53 | Nafallo | morsing: just means your irc client loves me ;-) |
14:14.59 | morsing | Nafallo: :) |
14:15.02 | morsing | I love you too |
14:15.13 | Nafallo | \o/ |
14:15.19 | Nafallo | yay! |
14:16.16 | AndyMillar | morsing: probably 3-5 years :p |
14:16.31 | morsing | AndyMillar: But you've been asleep most of that time? |
14:16.44 | AndyMillar | indeed |
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14:46.12 | *** join/#gllug Mohan (~nixh0st@unaffiliated/mohan) |
14:46.22 | morsing | Mohan: STOP IT! |
14:57.22 | Nafallo | it's easy to avoid that one. |
14:57.48 | Nafallo | Mohan: if you set your your freenode server password to your nickserv password, you'll save having an annoying morsing on your back ;-) |
15:00.05 | morsing | If he would just run his client in screen - actually, why not just get a proper ISP? |
15:02.10 | AndyMillar | morsing: there's nothing wrong with Virgin :) |
15:09.19 | morsing | AndyMillar: Ohhh, believe me, there is! They're awful! CISAS has recognised it as well, and ordered them to pay us £200 for their shit service, which we have just received |
15:09.39 | hali | any Juniper network users here? |
15:16.09 | AndyMillar | runs juniper firewalls |
15:18.04 | hali | AndyMillar: srx? |
15:18.10 | hali | im considering using srx1400 for a project |
15:32.00 | AndyMillar | ns25s, as they're personal ones |
15:32.13 | AndyMillar | I know people who love the srx's though |
15:33.50 | hali | yes, they seemed to have a lot of baby bugs when first released |
15:33.52 | hali | but ok now |
15:33.58 | hali | especially the SRX1400 and up seem very solid |
15:34.06 | hali | forwarding in hardware is always sexy |
15:34.39 | hali | and good old mx80 for routing is hard to beat |
15:37.23 | AndyMillar | mmh |
15:43.13 | axelS | has anybody got a comparison of TCO between linux and windows servers to hand? |
15:43.18 | axelS | link or pdf would do nicely :) |
15:44.06 | wethrin | I'm sure there'll be some on Microsoft's website :) |
15:44.13 | axelS | lol |
15:44.16 | axelS | yeah, in their favour |
15:44.34 | axelS | i am looking for something to back up my "Linux will cost you less in the end" claim |
15:45.06 | wethrin | Ah, so you're looking for a biased report :) |
15:45.13 | axelS | ;p |
15:46.18 | axelS | i just can't be arsed to do independent, scientifically valuable research myself |
15:46.19 | AndyMillar | I'm sure there will be some on RedHat's website :) |
15:46.26 | axelS | hmm |
15:46.39 | axelS | let's have a look at debian and ubuntu first |
15:48.17 | hali | windows is much cheaper in 90% of all cases :) |
15:48.43 | axelS | and how would you back that up sir? |
15:49.09 | hali | license costs are negligible in the great scheme of things, the lost productivity and increase admin costs for smaller setups is the main reason |
15:49.11 | axelS | I'm trying to make a case for OSS, there must be documentation I can use somewhere on the interwebs? |
15:49.22 | hali | this is my own thinking of course and i have no pdf's or links to back it up |
15:49.39 | hali | just the lack of a decent collaboration mail server for linux is quite annoying |
15:49.45 | hali | there is zimbra i guess |
15:49.47 | axelS | interesting point. I'm looking at small businesses here. |
15:49.54 | axelS | zimbra or iredmail |
15:50.21 | axelS | SuSE has good out-of-the-box software too for comparibly (sic) little money |
15:51.34 | axelS | ha, found something: http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php |
15:54.06 | ChoHag | a tampon will never tell you anything. they're always stuck up cunts |
15:57.52 | axelS | lol |
16:08.01 | hali | iredmail looks a bit like a hack |
16:08.15 | hali | and not having a native outlook connector often pisses people off |
16:27.45 | axelS | a what now? |
16:28.09 | axelS | yeah, ireadmail is a bundle of open source softwares with their free or paid-for admin control panel |
16:28.13 | axelS | quite neat actually |
16:28.26 | axelS | zimbra is nicer if you are looking for more enterprise features |
16:28.50 | axelS | no need for connectors if you know your way around ldap and webdav i think |
16:29.23 | ChoHag | Are you trying to create an exchange replacement? |
16:30.49 | axelS | no, why would i? businesses don't require to have Microsoft Exchange but they probably need similar features |
16:31.09 | ChoHag | What? |
16:31.40 | ChoHag | You said no but your explanation said yes. |
16:31.47 | axelS | calendar sharing, shared mailboxes, ... |
16:32.16 | ChoHag | Right, so you do want an exchange replacement? |
16:32.16 | axelS | exchange is one mailserver that has those features. saying i want a replacement would mean i already have exchange running |
16:32.24 | axelS | semantics :) |
16:32.27 | ChoHag | alternative then. |
16:33.06 | axelS | if you have exchange you probably should move from on-site to hosted exchange. if you don't have a server as such, get zimbra or similar |
16:33.19 | ChoHag | Then your original assumption is likely wrong. Using Linux and ? will cost more in the end than using Windows and Exchange. |
16:33.51 | axelS | oh that one. well running a linux / oss powered mail server in this example would cost you less than an exchange one |
16:33.52 | ChoHag | There's a reason exchange is popular, and it's certainly not because it's a half decent mail server. |
16:34.29 | AndyMillar | right |
16:34.39 | AndyMillar | how you've hit something I care about |
16:34.46 | AndyMillar | there is no exchange replacement yet |
16:34.47 | axelS | aye :) |
16:35.04 | AndyMillar | Exchange is popular because it "just works(tm)" |
16:35.18 | AndyMillar | Exchange 2010 supports Firefox as a browser for the web UI too |
16:35.27 | axelS | my comparison would be Microsoft Windows, Office with Exchange -vs- (i.e.) Ubuntu Desktop & Server with Zimbra |
16:35.32 | AndyMillar | anything that needs an outlook connector would suck BOLLOCKS |
16:35.35 | axelS | it does quite nicely, yes |
16:35.38 | AndyMillar | Exchange is cheaper to run than Zimbra |
16:35.45 | AndyMillar | and has better fault tollerance, and is less resource intensive |
16:35.48 | axelS | how so? |
16:35.55 | ChoHag | Windows SBS comes with exchange. It's a one-off cost of a few hundred plus the admin to click next a few times and get it installed. |
16:35.57 | axelS | do you mean the paid version or community one? |
16:36.17 | AndyMillar | paid |
16:36.36 | axelS | ah |
16:36.56 | AndyMillar | axelS: I run Exchange personally for my mail :) |
16:36.58 | axelS | and you would choose that over the CE because of the support and connector? |
16:37.02 | axelS | ditto |
16:37.03 | axelS | 2010 |
16:37.07 | AndyMillar | +1 |
16:37.11 | AndyMillar | axelS: if you want any form of Blackberry support, stay away from Zimbra |
16:37.18 | ChoHag | I could set up tools for you to do a lot of what exchange does. It would cost you a lot more than a few hundred quid. |
16:37.23 | axelS | yeah, i learned that one the hard way! |
16:37.42 | AndyMillar | if you want exchange's features, just go for exchange |
16:38.10 | axelS | i think it depends on the client's requirements. if you have a running exchange set-up, why change? if you don't but you need the features than use something like zimbra |
16:38.22 | AndyMillar | axelS: do you want HA? |
16:38.33 | AndyMillar | (if so, Zimbra doesn't support it) |
16:38.42 | axelS | for an SME probably not |
16:38.44 | AndyMillar | ((well, they do, but that's only if you have shared storage, which isn't really HA)) |
16:38.58 | ChoHag | It comes down to cost. It's business. Everything comes down to cost. |
16:39.00 | AndyMillar | axelS: how many users is this for? |
16:39.01 | axelS | i think they are about to in the next major release (if i remember correctly) |
16:39.11 | ChoHag | Setting up exchange is *cheap*. Maintaining exchange is *cheap*. |
16:39.15 | axelS | let's say an estate agent with 15 users |
16:39.16 | ChoHag | Exchange is shit. |
16:39.19 | ChoHag | But it's cheap. |
16:39.28 | AndyMillar | axelS: then go for a M$ foundation server and office365 |
16:39.30 | axelS | they have a pop in-house and smtp via their ISP |
16:40.02 | AndyMillar | gets you exchange, a server on site, and winblows management for little money |
16:40.37 | axelS | i can't believe i'm hearing this in a LUG channel! :-) |
16:41.27 | AndyMillar | well, if you want exchange :-p |
16:41.29 | ChoHag | Promoting shoddy exchange alternatives and the depressingly hilarious state of linux on the desktop has done more harm to open sores over the years than *anything* else. |
16:41.40 | AndyMillar | ChoHag++ |
16:41.47 | axelS | hmm |
16:42.03 | axelS | i want basic groupware, no bb or anything fancy really |
16:42.11 | axelS | so Exchange or bust? |
16:42.33 | ChoHag | exchange or your costs will escalate out of control and your users will hate you. |
16:42.49 | AndyMillar | axelS: Zimbra doesn't support notes :p |
16:42.55 | AndyMillar | which fucks off Outlook users |
16:43.01 | ChoHag | Because nothing will *quite* work right. |
16:43.02 | AndyMillar | what will your users be using? |
16:43.44 | axelS | webmail preferrably |
16:43.58 | ChoHag | Exchange has that out of the box, and OWA doesn't completely suck. |
16:44.06 | ChoHag | OWA in IE is almost nice. |
16:44.09 | AndyMillar | new OWA is pretty good |
16:44.13 | AndyMillar | ChoHag: works in firefox now too |
16:44.14 | ChoHag | Is it? |
16:44.21 | ChoHag | I haven't seen recent versions. |
16:44.32 | AndyMillar | yeah, 2010 works in FF and is pretty alright |
16:44.56 | axelS | it does, which is nice. but surely exchange isn't the only way to roll if you are looking for something more than basic email? |
16:45.10 | AndyMillar | 16:42:33 < ChoHag> exchange or your costs will escalate out of control and your users will hate you. |
16:45.14 | ChoHag | No, there's also notes. |
16:45.14 | AndyMillar | ^^ |
16:45.25 | AndyMillar | but then your users will hate you |
16:45.40 | axelS | i don't want people to hate me |
16:45.48 | ChoHag | But if your users will hate you for using an open sores not-quite-exchange, it's nothing compared to what will be faced if users are forced to use notes. |
16:45.50 | axelS | i want them to love me and carry me around on their hands |
16:46.00 | AndyMillar | axelS: just get a R310 with SBS2011 on it :p |
16:46.06 | axelS | damnit |
16:46.20 | axelS | you two are unbelievable :) |
16:46.42 | ChoHag | axelS: Do you want money or a warm fuzzy feeling? |
16:46.42 | axelS | what about Kolab? |
16:46.52 | axelS | money please, i can buy warm fuzzy feelings with that :D |
16:46.53 | ChoHag | Linux gives me warm fuzzies. Windows pays my bills. |
16:47.25 | axelS | damn you Matthew ;p |
16:47.35 | ChoHag | Sorry. |
16:47.39 | ChoHag | I grew up. |
16:47.55 | axelS | :'( |
16:49.53 | AndyMillar | axelS: I've spent a lot of time in SMEs |
16:50.19 | AndyMillar | (a lot of time in a lot of SMEs) |
16:50.23 | axelS | it's interesting to hear you two say that there is (still) nothing to beat the beast of Redmond in that space |
16:50.41 | axelS | i appriciate your comments and insight :) |
16:51.15 | AndyMillar | axelS: I also run RHEL on (one of) my desktop(s) and laptop :p |
16:52.15 | AndyMillar | my router runs Centos and I'm irc'ing from a FreeBSD server |
16:52.16 | AndyMillar | :-p |
16:52.21 | AndyMillar | so I'm pretty technology agnostic |
16:52.57 | axelS | hehe |
16:53.38 | AndyMillar | (hmm, thinking about it, I also have a macbook air, run netgear switches and juniper firewalls) |
16:53.39 | axelS | I'm sitting in an office with two W7x64, Mac OS X, and one linux server (which runs several VM'd linux servers) |
16:53.46 | AndyMillar | :) |
16:53.55 | AndyMillar | "the right tool for the job(tm)" |
16:54.00 | axelS | if only i hadn't sold my Amiga |
16:54.03 | axelS | true true |
16:57.30 | AndyMillar | :p |
17:09.17 | axelS | what do you make of this statement in regards to brand name computers vs build-to-order ones: "Big name brands cost more and unless you take out special support options, dont have any more value than a build-to-order desktop from your local computer specialist." |
17:09.51 | AndyMillar | bollocks |
17:09.56 | AndyMillar | Buy Dell |
17:10.05 | axelS | lol |
17:10.10 | AndyMillar | almost insignificant price difference, and sane warranties |
17:10.13 | axelS | what, even Vostro? |
17:10.49 | AndyMillar | "meh", we sell a lot of Dell kit :p |
17:11.02 | AndyMillar | it's cheap as chips, and you get 5 year warranties |
17:11.54 | axelS | what's the average price for a desktop (only) thesedays? |
17:12.20 | axelS | for general-purpose office type work (ms office, facebook,...) |
17:12.35 | AndyMillar | 650 ish |
17:12.55 | AndyMillar | i5, 4gb ram, 3 year warranty |
17:13.04 | AndyMillar | that's pretty much the standard build we ship |
17:13.28 | axelS | interesting, i would have said £500, i3, 4gb ram, 3yr |
17:13.38 | AndyMillar | Office? |
17:13.47 | axelS | what about mini-itx / low power desktops? |
17:14.05 | axelS | windows 7 pro, ms office pro |
17:14.17 | AndyMillar | well, 300, ish, of the cost will be office and win7 |
17:14.27 | axelS | quite |
17:14.30 | AndyMillar | so going mini-itx probably makes little difference |
17:14.54 | axelS | space savings, power savings, i'd go disk-less (as in ssd, no dvd) |
17:15.16 | AndyMillar | similar price for a Dell USFF |
17:15.22 | axelS | maybe not ssd for money-sake, although they have come down in price somewhat |
17:15.26 | axelS | usff? |
17:15.33 | axelS | pardon my ignorance :) |
17:15.39 | AndyMillar | ultra small form factor |
17:15.53 | axelS | sh |
17:16.06 | axelS | £700+ aren't they? |
17:19.12 | AndyMillar | mmh, unsure (buy enough and they're cheaper) |
17:20.02 | axelS | interesting. thanks for your insights andy |
17:20.53 | axelS | time for home. have a nice weekend y'all |
17:21.11 | AndyMillar | sorry, I'm jaded from too long in SME :p |
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23:30.55 | z00dax | AndyMillar: didnt know you were selling dell kit as well.. |
23:31.07 | z00dax | wonders if that implies non standard configs as well then |