IRC log for #gllug on 20120224

00:38.31*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@168.70.35.168)
04:06.28*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@202.130.86.146)
10:09.02*** join/#gllug hali (~hampus@ks209568.kimsufi.com)
10:09.32morsinghali!
10:55.16*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@168.70.35.168)
11:27.55axelSlo
11:47.53ChoHag11:47 -!- Do not IRC as root.
11:48.01ChoHagHow about you go fuck yourself, server.
11:48.17AndyMillarheh
12:32.28axelSlol
12:45.54morsing*Sigh*
13:46.24*** join/#gllug dick_turpin (~peter@host217-34-163-30.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
13:48.21dick_turpinBuy our crap http://www.cafepress.co.uk/thedickturpinroadshow
14:03.55ChoHagI'm not entirely sure that 2nd pint was a good idea.
14:07.33AndyMillarwhy not?
14:07.37morsingdick_turpin: Has Sharon got a job yet?
14:08.06dick_turpinI'm certainly making her sweat
14:10.26AndyMillar\o/
14:10.30AndyMillarmorsing: who's Sharon?.
14:10.38AndyMillar(my cleaner's called Sharon)
14:12.51morsingNafallo: O_o WTF!? How long have you been on this channel?S1
14:13.54Nafallomorsing: ehrm. not sure. 80d uptime in irssi now, so at least that long :-P
14:14.07Nafallomorsing: years? :-)
14:14.20morsingNafallo: Darn TAB-complete
14:14.28morsingAndyMillar: O_o WTF!? How long have you been on this channel?S1
14:14.39Nafallomorsing: you wouldn't say that if you lost it :-P
14:14.42dick_turpinAndyMillar: He's on about Boudiccas
14:14.53Nafallomorsing: just means your irc client loves me ;-)
14:14.59morsingNafallo: :)
14:15.02morsingI love you too
14:15.13Nafallo\o/
14:15.19Nafalloyay!
14:16.16AndyMillarmorsing: probably 3-5 years :p
14:16.31morsingAndyMillar: But you've been asleep most of that time?
14:16.44AndyMillarindeed
14:46.12*** join/#gllug Mohan (~nixh0st@cpc1-slou1-2-0-cust65.haye.cable.virginmedia.com)
14:46.12*** join/#gllug Mohan (~nixh0st@unaffiliated/mohan)
14:46.22morsingMohan: STOP IT!
14:57.22Nafalloit's easy to avoid that one.
14:57.48NafalloMohan: if you set your your freenode server password to your nickserv password, you'll save having an annoying morsing on your back ;-)
15:00.05morsingIf he would just run his client in screen - actually, why not just get a proper ISP?
15:02.10AndyMillarmorsing: there's nothing wrong with Virgin :)
15:09.19morsingAndyMillar: Ohhh, believe me, there is! They're awful! CISAS has recognised it as well, and ordered them to pay us £200 for their shit service, which we have just received
15:09.39haliany Juniper network users here?
15:16.09AndyMillarruns juniper firewalls
15:18.04haliAndyMillar: srx?
15:18.10haliim considering using srx1400 for a project
15:32.00AndyMillarns25s, as they're personal ones
15:32.13AndyMillarI know people who love the srx's though
15:33.50haliyes, they seemed to have a lot of baby bugs when first released
15:33.52halibut ok now
15:33.58haliespecially the SRX1400 and up seem very solid
15:34.06haliforwarding in hardware is always sexy
15:34.39haliand good old mx80 for routing is hard to beat
15:37.23AndyMillarmmh
15:43.13axelShas anybody got a comparison of TCO between linux and windows servers to hand?
15:43.18axelSlink or pdf would do nicely :)
15:44.06wethrinI'm sure there'll be some on Microsoft's website :)
15:44.13axelSlol
15:44.16axelSyeah, in their favour
15:44.34axelSi am looking for something to back up my "Linux will cost you less in the end" claim
15:45.06wethrinAh, so you're looking for a biased report :)
15:45.13axelS;p
15:46.18axelSi just can't be arsed to do independent, scientifically valuable research myself
15:46.19AndyMillarI'm sure there will be some on RedHat's website :)
15:46.26axelShmm
15:46.39axelSlet's have a look at debian and ubuntu first
15:48.17haliwindows is much cheaper in 90% of all cases :)
15:48.43axelSand how would you back that up sir?
15:49.09halilicense costs are negligible in the great scheme of things, the lost productivity and increase admin costs for smaller setups is the main reason
15:49.11axelSI'm trying to make a case for OSS, there must be documentation I can use somewhere on the interwebs?
15:49.22halithis is my own thinking of course and i have no pdf's or links to back it up
15:49.39halijust the lack of a decent collaboration mail server for linux is quite annoying
15:49.45halithere is zimbra i guess
15:49.47axelSinteresting point. I'm looking at small businesses here.
15:49.54axelSzimbra or iredmail
15:50.21axelSSuSE has good out-of-the-box software too for comparibly (sic) little money
15:51.34axelSha, found something: http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php
15:54.06ChoHaga tampon will never tell you anything. they're always stuck up cunts
15:57.52axelSlol
16:08.01haliiredmail looks a bit like a hack
16:08.15haliand not having a native outlook connector often pisses people off
16:27.45axelSa what now?
16:28.09axelSyeah, ireadmail is a bundle of open source softwares with their free or paid-for admin control panel
16:28.13axelSquite neat actually
16:28.26axelSzimbra is nicer if you are looking for more enterprise features
16:28.50axelSno need for connectors if you know your way around ldap and webdav i think
16:29.23ChoHagAre you trying to create an exchange replacement?
16:30.49axelSno, why would i? businesses don't require to have Microsoft Exchange but they probably need similar features
16:31.09ChoHagWhat?
16:31.40ChoHagYou said no but your explanation said yes.
16:31.47axelScalendar sharing, shared mailboxes, ...
16:32.16ChoHagRight, so you do want an exchange replacement?
16:32.16axelSexchange is one mailserver that has those features. saying i want a replacement would mean i already have exchange running
16:32.24axelSsemantics :)
16:32.27ChoHagalternative then.
16:33.06axelSif you have exchange you probably should move from on-site to hosted exchange. if you don't have a server as such, get zimbra or similar
16:33.19ChoHagThen your original assumption is likely wrong. Using Linux and ? will cost more in the end than using Windows and Exchange.
16:33.51axelSoh that one. well running a linux / oss powered mail server in this example would cost you less than an exchange one
16:33.52ChoHagThere's a reason exchange is popular, and it's certainly not because it's a half decent mail server.
16:34.29AndyMillarright
16:34.39AndyMillarhow you've hit something I care about
16:34.46AndyMillarthere is no exchange replacement yet
16:34.47axelSaye :)
16:35.04AndyMillarExchange is popular because it "just works(tm)"
16:35.18AndyMillarExchange 2010 supports Firefox as a browser for the web UI too
16:35.27axelSmy comparison would be Microsoft Windows, Office with Exchange -vs- (i.e.) Ubuntu Desktop & Server with Zimbra
16:35.32AndyMillaranything that needs an outlook connector would suck BOLLOCKS
16:35.35axelSit does quite nicely, yes
16:35.38AndyMillarExchange is cheaper to run than Zimbra
16:35.45AndyMillarand has better fault tollerance, and is less resource intensive
16:35.48axelShow so?
16:35.55ChoHagWindows SBS comes with exchange. It's a one-off cost of a few hundred plus the admin to click next a few times and get it installed.
16:35.57axelSdo you mean the paid version or community one?
16:36.17AndyMillarpaid
16:36.36axelSah
16:36.56AndyMillaraxelS: I run Exchange personally for my mail :)
16:36.58axelSand you would choose that over the CE because of the support and connector?
16:37.02axelSditto
16:37.03axelS2010
16:37.07AndyMillar+1
16:37.11AndyMillaraxelS: if you want any form of Blackberry support, stay away from Zimbra
16:37.18ChoHagI could set up tools for you to do a lot of what exchange does. It would cost you a lot more than a few hundred quid.
16:37.23axelSyeah, i learned that one the hard way!
16:37.42AndyMillarif you want exchange's features, just go for exchange
16:38.10axelSi think it depends on the client's requirements. if you have a running exchange set-up, why change? if you don't but you need the features than use something like zimbra
16:38.22AndyMillaraxelS: do you want HA?
16:38.33AndyMillar(if so, Zimbra doesn't support it)
16:38.42axelSfor an SME probably not
16:38.44AndyMillar((well, they do, but that's only if you have shared storage, which isn't really HA))
16:38.58ChoHagIt comes down to cost. It's business. Everything comes down to cost.
16:39.00AndyMillaraxelS: how many users is this for?
16:39.01axelSi think they are about to in the next major release (if i remember correctly)
16:39.11ChoHagSetting up exchange is *cheap*. Maintaining exchange is *cheap*.
16:39.15axelSlet's say an estate agent with 15 users
16:39.16ChoHagExchange is shit.
16:39.19ChoHagBut it's cheap.
16:39.28AndyMillaraxelS: then go for a M$ foundation server and office365
16:39.30axelSthey have a pop in-house and smtp via their ISP
16:40.02AndyMillargets you exchange, a server on site, and winblows management for little money
16:40.37axelSi can't believe i'm hearing this in a LUG channel! :-)
16:41.27AndyMillarwell, if you want exchange :-p
16:41.29ChoHagPromoting shoddy exchange alternatives and the depressingly hilarious state of linux on the desktop has done more harm to open sores over the years than *anything* else.
16:41.40AndyMillarChoHag++
16:41.47axelShmm
16:42.03axelSi want basic groupware, no bb or anything fancy really
16:42.11axelSso Exchange or bust?
16:42.33ChoHagexchange or your costs will escalate out of control and your users will hate you.
16:42.49AndyMillaraxelS: Zimbra doesn't support notes :p
16:42.55AndyMillarwhich fucks off Outlook users
16:43.01ChoHagBecause nothing will *quite* work right.
16:43.02AndyMillarwhat will your users be using?
16:43.44axelSwebmail preferrably
16:43.58ChoHagExchange has that out of the box, and OWA doesn't completely suck.
16:44.06ChoHagOWA in IE is almost nice.
16:44.09AndyMillarnew OWA is pretty good
16:44.13AndyMillarChoHag: works in firefox now too
16:44.14ChoHagIs it?
16:44.21ChoHagI haven't seen recent versions.
16:44.32AndyMillaryeah, 2010 works in FF and is pretty alright
16:44.56axelSit does, which is nice. but surely exchange isn't the only way to roll if you are looking for something more than basic email?
16:45.10AndyMillar16:42:33 < ChoHag> exchange or your costs will escalate out of control and your users will hate you.
16:45.14ChoHagNo, there's also notes.
16:45.14AndyMillar^^
16:45.25AndyMillarbut then your users will hate you
16:45.40axelSi don't want people to hate me
16:45.48ChoHagBut if your users will hate you for using an open sores not-quite-exchange, it's nothing compared to what will be faced if users are forced to use notes.
16:45.50axelSi want them to love me and carry me around on their hands
16:46.00AndyMillaraxelS: just get a R310 with SBS2011 on it :p
16:46.06axelSdamnit
16:46.20axelSyou two are unbelievable :)
16:46.42ChoHagaxelS: Do you want money or a warm fuzzy feeling?
16:46.42axelSwhat about Kolab?
16:46.52axelSmoney please, i can buy warm fuzzy feelings with that :D
16:46.53ChoHagLinux gives me warm fuzzies. Windows pays my bills.
16:47.25axelSdamn you Matthew ;p
16:47.35ChoHagSorry.
16:47.39ChoHagI grew up.
16:47.55axelS:'(
16:49.53AndyMillaraxelS: I've spent a lot of time in SMEs
16:50.19AndyMillar(a lot of time in a lot of SMEs)
16:50.23axelSit's interesting to hear you two say that there is (still) nothing to beat the beast of Redmond in that space
16:50.41axelSi appriciate your comments and insight :)
16:51.15AndyMillaraxelS: I also run RHEL on (one of) my desktop(s) and laptop :p
16:52.15AndyMillarmy router runs Centos and I'm irc'ing from a FreeBSD server
16:52.16AndyMillar:-p
16:52.21AndyMillarso I'm pretty technology agnostic
16:52.57axelShehe
16:53.38AndyMillar(hmm, thinking about it, I also have a macbook air, run netgear switches and juniper firewalls)
16:53.39axelSI'm sitting in an office with two W7x64, Mac OS X, and one linux server (which runs several VM'd linux servers)
16:53.46AndyMillar:)
16:53.55AndyMillar"the right tool for the job(tm)"
16:54.00axelSif only i hadn't sold my Amiga
16:54.03axelStrue true
16:57.30AndyMillar:p
17:09.17axelSwhat do you make of this statement in regards to brand name computers vs build-to-order ones: "Big name brands cost more and unless you take out special support options, don’t have any more value than a build-to-order desktop from your local computer specialist."
17:09.51AndyMillarbollocks
17:09.56AndyMillarBuy Dell
17:10.05axelSlol
17:10.10AndyMillaralmost insignificant price difference, and sane warranties
17:10.13axelSwhat, even Vostro?
17:10.49AndyMillar"meh", we sell a lot of Dell kit :p
17:11.02AndyMillarit's cheap as chips, and you get 5 year warranties
17:11.54axelSwhat's the average price for a desktop (only) thesedays?
17:12.20axelSfor general-purpose office type work (ms office, facebook,...)
17:12.35AndyMillar650 ish
17:12.55AndyMillari5, 4gb ram, 3 year warranty
17:13.04AndyMillarthat's pretty much the standard build we ship
17:13.28axelSinteresting, i would have said £500, i3, 4gb ram, 3yr
17:13.38AndyMillarOffice?
17:13.47axelSwhat about mini-itx / low power desktops?
17:14.05axelSwindows 7 pro, ms office pro
17:14.17AndyMillarwell, 300, ish, of the cost will be office and win7
17:14.27axelSquite
17:14.30AndyMillarso going mini-itx probably makes little difference
17:14.54axelSspace savings, power savings, i'd go disk-less (as in ssd, no dvd)
17:15.16AndyMillarsimilar price for a Dell USFF
17:15.22axelSmaybe not ssd for money-sake, although they have come down in price somewhat
17:15.26axelSusff?
17:15.33axelSpardon my ignorance :)
17:15.39AndyMillarultra small form factor
17:15.53axelSsh
17:16.06axelS£700+ aren't they?
17:19.12AndyMillarmmh, unsure (buy enough and they're cheaper)
17:20.02axelSinteresting. thanks for your insights andy
17:20.53axelStime for home. have  a nice weekend y'all
17:21.11AndyMillarsorry, I'm jaded from too long in  SME :p
18:27.39*** join/#gllug toxboi (~toxboi@pdpc/supporter/student/toxboi)
23:30.55z00daxAndyMillar: didnt know you were selling dell kit as well..
23:31.07z00daxwonders if that implies non standard configs as well then

Generated by irclog2html.pl Modified by Tim Riker to work with infobot.