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| 09:24.55 | ChoHag | Why does my own computer insist that my password meet certain requirements? |
| 09:25.15 | ChoHag | It's a VM with no internet connection. Who the fuck cares if 'none' is not 6 characters long? |
| 09:25.22 | ChoHag | nonenone is harder to type. |
| 09:25.31 | yaMatt | I've never met a distro that enforced it |
| 09:25.35 | wethrin | what about 'noooooone'? |
| 09:25.38 | yaMatt | only one that complains |
| 09:25.50 | ChoHag | None enforce it because that's impossible. |
| 09:26.39 | yaMatt | so you're complaining that it's complaining? |
| 09:26.50 | ChoHag | YEs. |
| 09:27.16 | ChoHag | Although the installer has in fact 'enforced' it, meaning I have to go and change it by hand once it's booted. |
| 09:27.28 | yaMatt | ah |
| 09:27.36 | ChoHag | And here's the thing - That's possible because IT'S MY COMPUTER. |
| 09:27.52 | yaMatt | you would rather it didn't complain about insecure passwords? |
| 09:28.19 | ChoHag | No. |
| 09:28.34 | ChoHag | I'd rather it gave me the option to tell it to fuck off because it's a machine and doesn't have a fucking clue what it's talking about. |
| 09:28.50 | yaMatt | that is true, certainly give you the choice |
| 09:29.02 | ChoHag | But it seems like the idea that a computer is my tool to do my bidding seems old fashioned these days. |
| 09:31.16 | yaMatt | which distro/installer was it? |
| 09:31.50 | ChoHag | Centos. |
| 09:31.57 | ChoHag | Which, when installed, gives me a black screen with a mouse pointer. |
| 09:32.24 | yaMatt | it's about as old fashioned as complaining about an open source product |
| 09:33.37 | ChoHag | I'm not complaining. |
| 09:33.59 | yaMatt | then you must be writing a bug report in the wrong medium |
| 09:34.01 | ChoHag | Complaining needs to be directed. |
| 09:34.08 | ChoHag | This is ranting. |
| 09:35.01 | yaMatt | synonyms |
| 09:37.15 | ChoHag | Ranting is basically undirected complaining. |
| 09:39.19 | yaMatt | but you're "ranting" in an environment where you have the most power to affect change |
| 09:39.27 | yaMatt | I've never really understood that |
| 09:42.38 | ChoHag | I have almost no power to affect change because the barrier to entry is astronomically high. |
| 09:43.10 | ChoHag | I don't have the time to spend weeks learning a boring tool so that I can fix a minor issue and then never look at it again. |
| 09:43.31 | ChoHag | I like eating and eating costs money. |
| 09:43.33 | yaMatt | bug reports are quite simple, although I do admit not as simple as they could be |
| 09:43.45 | ChoHag | And here's the thing. |
| 09:43.57 | ChoHag | It's not really in my interests to do anything about this. |
| 09:44.36 | ChoHag | I'm evaluating centos (and it fell on its face), not using or selling it. I have neither the need nor the desire to fix it. |
| 09:45.21 | yaMatt | you could include reporting bugs and getting them fixed in your evaluation |
| 09:45.30 | yaMatt | sounds quite important to me |
| 09:45.47 | ChoHag | Centos, on the other hand, and the developers who regularly shit code out, DO have an interest in making it better. It is their responsibility to make it as easy as humanly possibly to tell them if something is wrong because I DON'T WANT TO. |
| 09:46.16 | ChoHag | Important. Yes. |
| 09:46.21 | ChoHag | Important to centos. |
| 09:46.29 | ChoHag | Not important to me. I have a child to feed. |
| 09:47.06 | yaMatt | why not use Windows? At least then you will have reason to complain if something doesn't work. You can't do anything about it. |
| 09:47.27 | ChoHag | Yes thank you for being a typical open source advocate. |
| 09:47.28 | ChoHag | Stage 2. |
| 09:47.37 | ChoHag | Stage 1: You should report bugs! |
| 09:47.46 | ChoHag | Stage 2: Why don't you just go and use Windows then? |
| 09:48.41 | yaMatt | typical open source advocate stage 0: complain about a product you have the ability to fix |
| 09:48.52 | ChoHag | Advocate? |
| 09:48.56 | ChoHag | I'm not advocating this shit. |
| 09:48.59 | ChoHag | It's ... shit. |
| 09:49.43 | yaMatt | then back to my previous question, why use it? |
| 09:51.30 | yaMatt | someone is forcing you? |
| 09:55.38 | yaMatt | the thing I saw recently was someone complaining that they were getting an ear-full in the Arch channel, and yet refused to put anything in the wiki simply out of spite, even though it would prevent someone in the same situation going through the same shit they did |
| 09:56.20 | yaMatt | that gets me wound up just as much as bugs in software get other people wound up |
| 09:56.42 | yaMatt | at least with the bugs every effort is made to give people the opportunity to do something about it |
| 09:58.02 | yaMatt | where's my bug reporting software for the people that don't write bug reports? |
| 10:00.34 | yaMatt | you have to wonder if linux is too popular. Could we do with culling some of the dead weight? |
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| 10:05.38 | ChoHag | Sorry - fag break. |
| 10:05.42 | ChoHag | I'm seeing what it's like. |
| 10:06.38 | ChoHag | I thought Ubuntu is shit so let's see what the state of the art is in Linux distributions. |
| 10:07.27 | ChoHag | I'm more likely to report bugs in the products I'm use. |
| 10:07.49 | ChoHag | And I'm more likely still to reports bugs that the QA team might actually have missed. |
| 10:08.32 | ChoHag | If a bug jumps out at me in a default setting, then whoever did the basic run-through test will have spotted it. |
| 10:09.12 | ChoHag | If they didn't spot it, then they don't have anybody to do the basic run-through test which implies, more than implies, that they don't give the tiniest shit about quality. |
| 10:09.35 | ChoHag | So why should I give more a shit than them? |
| 10:10.52 | ChoHag | And how can I be sure or even hope that the time I invest reporting a bug to a group which doesn't care about quality will not be a complete waste? |
| 10:35.35 | yaMatt | yeah, I do appreciate what you mean |
| 10:36.00 | yaMatt | bugs really shouldn't be obvious |
| 10:36.55 | wethrin | That's something that *really* put me off the Asus EeePC |
| 10:37.08 | wethrin | They had a chance of making something that worked, and they, well, ballsed it up |
| 10:37.31 | wethrin | Just through not testing that the provided software works with the screen resolution, etc |
| 10:42.18 | ChoHag | It's business as usual. |
| 10:42.27 | ChoHag | The package manager in Ubuntu is buggy. |
| 10:42.33 | yaMatt | the 701, 901 were great as long as you installed something small on there |
| 10:42.40 | ChoHag | The package manager! |
| 10:42.43 | yaMatt | ChoHag, the main GUI one? |
| 10:42.50 | ChoHag | Yes. |
| 10:42.51 | ChoHag | Apt is fine. |
| 10:42.55 | yaMatt | it is an utter pile of shit |
| 10:43.01 | ChoHag | I know! |
| 10:43.04 | ChoHag | How?! |
| 10:43.09 | yaMatt | I've never used something so awful in Linux before |
| 10:43.13 | yaMatt | even Dia works better |
| 10:43.18 | ChoHag | Did nobody at Ubuntu even at least load the damn thing? |
| 10:43.27 | yaMatt | you would think they do |
| 10:43.34 | yaMatt | clearly not |
| 10:43.37 | ChoHag | I don't. |
| 10:43.40 | ChoHag | Ubuntu don't eat their own dog food. |
| 10:43.52 | ChoHag | The solution to every problem involves a shell and sudo. |
| 10:44.06 | yaMatt | yeah, dogfooding is a big problem for them |
| 10:44.10 | ChoHag | So nobody realises that the GUI stuff is sheat heaped on shit. |
| 10:44.13 | ChoHag | um |
| 10:44.15 | ChoHag | shit heaped on shit. |
| 10:44.43 | ChoHag | Personally I refuse to use the shell as a solution until I've exhausted every other possibility. |
| 10:44.53 | yaMatt | I remember a few years back (it may have changed now) that their entire design team were working on Macs |
| 10:44.54 | ChoHag | Because, against my better judgement, I still have hope. |
| 10:45.06 | yaMatt | very optomistic of you |
| 10:45.16 | ChoHag | It always fails. |
| 10:45.17 | ChoHag | Always. |
| 10:49.35 | ChoHag | The sorts of problems I'd be reporting, either they won't get fixed because there's too much basic stuff to fix first (which won't get done because it's more fun to make new broken stuff), or they don't need to get fixed because if the problems the QA teams should spot were fixed, the other problems wouldn't exist in the first place. |
| 10:53.32 | yaMatt | yeah, or even problems that should have been unit-tested |
| 10:53.38 | yaMatt | there's no bug fixes for process |
| 10:59.21 | ChoHag | Except fork. |
| 11:08.16 | AndyMillar | ChoHag: you do realise that using the GUI for everything is a windows admin trait ;) |
| 11:08.56 | ChoHag | And a Mac admin trait. |
| 11:09.23 | ChoHag | And Linux on the desktop can't seem to determine whether to copy OS X or Windows 98. |
| 11:09.36 | ChoHag | Now we have both. In one. |
| 11:09.49 | AndyMillar | sucks to be you; I (and many other Linux users and administrators) are perfectly happy to drop to a shell to do stuff |
| 11:09.55 | ChoHag | I'm happy to. |
| 11:10.01 | AndyMillar | (I actually prefer to) |
| 11:10.04 | ChoHag | And in Debian I do so for preference. |
| 11:10.54 | AndyMillar | and yes, the stupid movement to gnome3 and unity sucks ballsacks |
| 11:11.07 | AndyMillar | (which is why using RHEL6 is awesome, you're still on gnome2 and everything "just works(tm)" |
| 11:11.10 | AndyMillar | ) |
| 11:11.52 | ChoHag | I am investingating these things because I want a VM desktop I can run skype and shit in. For these reasons it needs to be the sort of thing the peons run. |
| 11:12.35 | ChoHag | So at the same time, it's interesting to see how despite trying so so hard to woo windows and mac users, linux desktop has done absolutely nothing to make that happen. |
| 11:14.52 | yaMatt | I think it is difficult, especially for the hardcore hackers to really visualise what it's like for a new user coming to Linux |
| 11:15.28 | yaMatt | I remember the first time I tried KDE and immediately thought it was a pile of shit because it does things so differently it's difficult to understand |
| 11:16.18 | yaMatt | there really is no 'stepping stone' WM, Gnome 2 came close, but we fucked that, I really like Gnome 3 but I can appreciate new users wouldn't have a clue as to what's going on there |
| 11:16.47 | yaMatt | mint/cinnamon is probably the right way to go. Mint has done a great job at making things familiar |
| 11:20.07 | *** join/#gllug dick_turpin (~peter@host217-34-163-30.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 11:22.08 | dick_turpin | How dare the French take pictures of my future queens tits! |
| 11:37.44 | yaMatt | Daily Fail reader eh? "Don't look at her tits, she's royal, but do have a look at some celebrities tits, that's fine" |
| 11:37.48 | ChoHag | Are they nice tits? |
| 11:40.34 | ChoHag | Why do more motherboards not come with 2.5" sata bays built-in? |
| 11:40.49 | ChoHag | And/or SSD storage on the board. |
| 11:40.59 | dick_turpin | sends yaMatt's name to the queen in the hope she has him beheaded. |
| 11:41.22 | yaMatt | or an OBE |
| 11:42.10 | dick_turpin | Well it wouldn't be the order of the bath would it smelly :-P |
| 11:51.37 | ChoHag | Why does page 3 only ever have women? |
| 11:51.49 | ChoHag | What about female readers? And gays? |
| 11:52.22 | ChoHag | I understand the fail wouldn't be too keen on supporting the gays, but women do read that shit too. |
| 11:52.36 | dick_turpin | Nobody actually likes seeing an erection, there is nothing sexy about them. |
| 11:53.29 | ChoHag | While the latter is true, I find the former hard to believe. |
| 11:53.35 | ChoHag | Otherwise why do we keep getting more humans? |
| 11:54.53 | dick_turpin | Because women are gullible and believe the bullshit men tell them. |
| 12:00.59 | yaMatt | it's programmed in to us and there is no escapting procreation, even by accident |
| 12:01.16 | yaMatt | women like the celeb stuff which is why the fail does so well |
| 12:01.24 | yaMatt | not all women, granted |
| 12:01.44 | yaMatt | but enough to keep the fail in the money |
| 12:05.04 | dick_turpin | You just need to know the right buttons to push |
| 13:39.01 | Leeds | hah... Bluray from Amazon, with VAT and free shipping, 17 quids... same Bluray from Amazon, without VAT but with international delivery, 17.75 |
| 13:39.28 | yaMatt | damn |
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| 21:05.35 | *** topic/#gllug is Greater London LUG | Next meeting 20th September 6pm @ The William Blake | http://www.gllug.org.uk |