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| 01:13.57 | MatthewWilkes | hehe, the timo glock hate groups on facebook keep on growing and growing |
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| 04:34.13 | milki | this is a pretty large channel with no activity o.O |
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| 04:36.59 | Landon | only because its not the start of the summer :P |
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| 05:07.33 | summatusmentis | Landon: very very tru |
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| 05:19.30 | [mharrison] | 'tis Ironic that I mistakingly opened up http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself in two browser tabs |
| 05:20.02 | Landon | wot |
| 05:22.37 | milki | lol |
| 05:22.59 | milki | if its not summer, that means everyone is in school? |
| 05:23.10 | Landon | yup yup |
| 05:23.20 | milki | cant be online when in school? |
| 05:23.26 | milki | liez |
| 05:23.35 | Landon | nothing to talk about :P |
| 05:23.59 | milki | dont interesting things happen at school? |
| 05:24.24 | milki | at least all the school i know always advertise about the itneresting things that happen at them |
| 05:24.38 | Landon | who wants to talk about them with [mharrison] though |
| 05:24.39 | Landon | :P |
| 05:24.45 | milki | ? |
| 05:24.52 | milki | [mharrison]? |
| 05:27.35 | [mharrison] | What? |
| 05:27.57 | milki | saa |
| 05:28.01 | Landon | aas |
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| 06:12.54 | summatusmentis | also,, when we do talk about school, it usually just ends in me whining |
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| 06:16.13 | araujo | thinks we should tell the truth to milki |
| 06:19.16 | summatusmentis | they did! |
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| 07:02.19 | milki | whoa, interesting names |
| 07:02.50 | milki | are these people connected via some webclient? |
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| 07:03.28 | milki | @drupal.org/user/47566/view? |
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| 07:04.19 | *** mode/#gsoc [+o lh] by ChanServ |
| 07:07.05 | milki | @unaffiliated/spectie? |
| 07:07.41 | milki | i was so excited when i discovered this irc channel, but now its like no one is alive here TT |
| 07:07.42 | ajuonline | milki: that is a cloak |
| 07:07.56 | ajuonline | milki: most of them here follow different time zones :) |
| 07:08.06 | ajuonline | s/them/us |
| 07:08.13 | milki | aw |
| 07:08.33 | kblin | I rarely look at IRC prior breakfast |
| 07:08.34 | milki | hm, no hostserv |
| 07:08.41 | milki | i look at irc almost 24/7 |
| 07:08.42 | milki | TT |
| 07:08.58 | milki | its my social network :P |
| 07:09.01 | ajuonline | you can find people talking after like 6-7 hours |
| 07:09.21 | ajuonline | kblin: good morning :) |
| 07:09.33 | *** join/#gsoc milki (n=milki@irc.housing.Berkeley.EDU) |
| 07:09.36 | milki | sighz |
| 07:09.40 | milki | wrong command -.- |
| 07:10.19 | ajuonline | why does firefox keep crashing |
| 07:10.26 | milki | 3.1? |
| 07:10.41 | ajuonline | 3.0.3 windows |
| 07:11.40 | milki | try disabling plugins |
| 07:12.51 | araujo | drops flowers at lh's way |
| 07:13.12 | lh | araujo: were you around for the whole discussion of the san and linsey wedding + flowers? |
| 07:13.15 | lh | and thank you my dear |
| 07:13.23 | lh | places in bowl on table, floating on the water |
| 07:13.33 | araujo | lh, mm... yes, I was if I remember correctly |
| 07:13.38 | araujo | can check logs |
| 07:13.43 | scorche | waves at lh |
| 07:15.26 | araujo | lh, si amiga , necesitas algo? |
| 07:16.03 | lh | scorche: how goes? |
| 07:16.12 | scorche | better |
| 07:16.15 | lh | araujo: nope, i just thought they were really really cool |
| 07:16.19 | lh | scorche: ++ |
| 07:16.20 | araujo | lh, :-D |
| 07:16.20 | lh | it is so cool |
| 07:16.24 | scorche | i can confirm that it was the chicken and was sickness now |
| 07:16.31 | araujo | lh, how the wedding was? |
| 07:16.32 | scorche | s/was/wasnt |
| 07:16.33 | lh | lynne and mrs_spearce are talking and having a great time |
| 07:16.50 | scorche | well, *wasnt the chicken and was sickness |
| 07:17.29 | lh | araujo: most beautiful ceremony ever. then i got to dance on marble floors (sans shoes always) and sip champagne in front a 3rd -4th century grecian laurel wreath and an egyptian sarcophagus |
| 07:17.32 | lh | it wqas amazing |
| 07:17.36 | lh | scorche: what kind? |
| 07:17.46 | araujo | hahaha |
| 07:17.58 | araujo | wonders if we have google videos of it :-P |
| 07:18.18 | scorche | i dont know...some sort of achey, nausea inducing, headachey, etc sickness |
| 07:18.24 | milki | sarcophagus at a wedding? |
| 07:19.33 | lh | araujo: don't think so |
| 07:19.38 | lh | milki: in an art museum |
| 07:19.57 | milki | o right |
| 07:19.57 | lh | milki: http://www.famsf.org/legion/visiting/index.asp |
| 07:20.03 | lh | beautiful |
| 07:20.05 | lh | full of shiny things |
| 07:20.27 | milki | i havent been to the legion of honor yet -.- |
| 07:21.14 | milki | First Tuesday of each month FREE |
| 07:21.15 | milki | oo |
| 07:21.42 | lh | sublime. |
| 07:21.46 | lh | the place is sublime. |
| 07:22.55 | kblin | hi lh |
| 07:23.18 | ajuonline | lo lh , you are on a holiday no? |
| 07:23.39 | ajuonline | sets mode +hugs lh |
| 07:24.06 | ajuonline | hi scorche |
| 07:24.10 | scorche | hi |
| 07:24.16 | lh | kblin: greetings |
| 07:24.22 | lh | ajuonline: ajay. :) |
| 07:24.31 | lh | ajuonline: holiday, yes. |
| 07:24.45 | lh | is making last minute travel arrangements |
| 07:24.50 | mlankhorst | :o |
| 07:24.59 | mlankhorst | sets mode ++hugs lh |
| 07:25.03 | ajuonline | lh: have fun! :) |
| 07:25.42 | kblin | morning mlankhorst :) |
| 07:26.04 | lh | mlankhorst: morning |
| 07:26.05 | ajuonline | mlankhorst: hey! how are you doing? |
| 07:26.10 | lh | loves staying up late with the dutch |
| 07:26.13 | lh | SRabbelier: sverre! |
| 07:26.17 | lh | are you back with the dutch? |
| 07:27.26 | kblin | he's "away" |
| 07:27.46 | kblin | which probably means he's still asleep, lazy bugger ;) |
| 07:28.15 | kblin | and I bet he still doesn't have a hat |
| 07:28.17 | araujo | lh, you should do so .. for all of us who need dancing lessons :-P |
| 07:29.29 | kblin | who needs dancing lessons? |
| 07:29.46 | mlankhorst | morning kblin, ajuonline and lh |
| 07:30.45 | mlankhorst | I just wake up at 07:59 now, hearing a minute of commercial then news through my alarm clock ;p |
| 07:32.10 | lh | araujo: i am not sure if i am fit to give lessons |
| 07:32.48 | mlankhorst | lh: "This is a bourne shell kids..." |
| 07:33.41 | kblin | mlankhorst: ew, that's ancient. bourne again shell++ |
| 07:33.46 | mlankhorst | Now all compile your own linux kernel while mutti gets a coffee |
| 07:34.51 | *** join/#gsoc mordante (n=chatzill@roadie.xs4all.nl) |
| 07:35.20 | mlankhorst | Extra points will be given for using correct ARCH, having the kernel compiled and the ability to boot your system with it :) |
| 07:35.28 | milki | lol |
| 07:35.43 | kblin | rejects the notion of compiling a kernel and ponders braving the wet, cold outdoors to buy stuff for breakfast |
| 07:35.55 | kblin | if I wanted to compile my own stuff, I'd run gentoo |
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| 07:36.15 | lh | decides that now is a good time to get some rest before flying to iad |
| 07:36.18 | mlankhorst | Heheh, you lowlevel geek, I abstracted buying stuff to my parents.c |
| 07:36.19 | lh | night gents |
| 07:36.20 | lh | :) |
| 07:36.25 | danderson | wheee, got my tshirt |
| 07:36.36 | kblin | morning mordante :) |
| 07:36.47 | danderson | however, I cannot seem to tunnel socks over ssh |
| 07:36.55 | mordante | hi kblin |
| 07:37.10 | kblin | danderson: you're supposed to _wear_ socks over _feet_ |
| 07:37.28 | mlankhorst | Only tcp socks would work |
| 07:37.39 | danderson | could someone look up "socks ozymandns connection reset" for me? |
| 07:37.47 | danderson | without the google it's hard to troubleshoot |
| 07:38.57 | danderson | ... anyone? |
| 07:38.58 | kblin | danderson: do you want to use the ssh socks thing or do you want to make socks use ssh? |
| 07:39.11 | kblin | no good hits on those keywords anyway |
| 07:39.15 | danderson | kblin: I'm connecting with ssh -D9292 |
| 07:39.30 | danderson | I then set the proxy in ffx to that, also configure ffx to route DNS requests over socks |
| 07:39.41 | danderson | but any page I go to just comes up blank |
| 07:40.04 | milki | try ssh -v -D9292 |
| 07:40.08 | milki | and see what it says |
| 07:40.14 | danderson | in firefox it's just an empty page, safari complains about the remote server dropping the connection |
| 07:40.23 | danderson | milki: I'm already at -vvv and nothing useful is being reported |
| 07:40.37 | danderson | just "hey, socket open for socks forwarding, hey socket closed, cleaning up |
| 07:41.00 | danderson | and I don't know how to speak socks over netcat to debug it |
| 07:41.20 | milki | the remote machine has internet access? |
| 07:41.25 | danderson | yup |
| 07:41.37 | danderson | I can telnet to the server I want and get a page by hand |
| 07:41.46 | danderson | seems to be just the ssh bit that's choking |
| 07:42.32 | milki | i ussually use -f -M -D |
| 07:42.33 | danderson | oh well |
| 07:42.34 | milki | er |
| 07:42.38 | danderson | huh? |
| 07:42.38 | milki | -f -N -D |
| 07:42.55 | milki | and for -D, -D :9292 to open it up to all interfaces |
| 07:43.01 | milki | just in case |
| 07:43.16 | *** join/#gsoc sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) |
| 07:43.23 | danderson | ah, hm |
| 07:43.26 | danderson | trying |
| 07:43.26 | milki | without :, you need to specify localhost |
| 07:43.30 | milki | as the proxy |
| 07:43.37 | *** join/#gsoc bentob0x (n=laurent@ip-213-49-75-74.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 07:43.46 | danderson | nope, still not |
| 07:43.52 | milki | one of those -f -N makes sure that ssh doesnt die because theres no command |
| 07:44.06 | danderson | still get a blank page in firefox, and ssh -vv still chatters in the background about sockets being opened for socks |
| 07:44.12 | danderson | it's just that nothing happens after that |
| 07:44.15 | danderson | how annoying. |
| 07:44.30 | danderson | oh well, I'll debug tonight when I actually have a real internet connection to use on the side :P |
| 07:45.16 | kblin | danderson: good luck :) |
| 07:45.59 | milki | yup, it took me 1 hour to get my tunnel working |
| 07:46.07 | danderson | that said, ozymandns could really do with being rewritten better |
| 07:46.10 | milki | had to socks proxy and port forward through two machines -.- |
| 07:46.20 | danderson | it seems to be very inefficient in its use of DNS packets |
| 07:46.37 | danderson | and sometimes just freaks out completely and kills the whole connection |
| 07:46.48 | danderson | like just now while I was typing that sentence |
| 07:47.33 | kblin | well, tunnelling over TCP has it's problems |
| 07:47.51 | danderson | it's not |
| 07:48.08 | danderson | well, for the ssh part at least |
| 07:48.24 | danderson | ozymandns tunnels over UDP DNS requests |
| 07:48.33 | danderson | which, as an aside, is a frickin awesome thing to do |
| 07:48.36 | kblin | oh, so that blog page is wrong... |
| 07:48.49 | kblin | OMG... someone is wrong on teh intarwebs... |
| 07:48.53 | danderson | a friend wanted to rewrite it a little better |
| 07:49.09 | danderson | currently, it tunnels data in DNS TXT requests |
| 07:49.19 | danderson | and the content of the TXT field is the server's data coming back |
| 07:49.36 | danderson | he wanted to make it use AXFR requests |
| 07:49.41 | danderson | which can be much larger |
| 07:49.45 | ajuonline | my certificate is dirty |
| 07:49.47 | danderson | thus providing a DSL-like experience |
| 07:49.53 | ajuonline | and the black marks are not vanishing away |
| 07:49.55 | ajuonline | :-/ |
| 07:50.03 | milki | bleach it? |
| 07:50.19 | danderson | I wonder what's for lunch today |
| 07:50.20 | ajuonline | milki: :X |
| 07:50.28 | danderson | 's fourth first day at google is in 40min o/ |
| 07:50.36 | ajuonline | fourth? |
| 07:50.36 | milki | :o |
| 07:50.38 | milki | exciting |
| 07:50.42 | ajuonline | changing offices the 4th time? |
| 07:50.45 | danderson | no |
| 07:50.49 | danderson | first 3 times were internships |
| 07:50.56 | danderson | this one is the fulltime first day |
| 07:50.59 | milki | nice |
| 07:51.06 | ajuonline | kool.. congratulations :) |
| 07:51.06 | danderson | where I get the much cooler looking badge with balls on it |
| 07:51.10 | milki | lol |
| 07:51.17 | ajuonline | i wonder if they hire php developers for internship offers |
| 07:51.19 | danderson | and membership in all the cool LDAP groups |
| 07:51.24 | danderson | that give me access to sekrit stuff :P |
| 07:51.25 | milki | last time i went to google, i didnt think the food was amazing -.- |
| 07:51.42 | danderson | milki: you clearly went on the wrong day |
| 07:51.46 | milki | went to the main cafeteria |
| 07:51.48 | milki | lol |
| 07:52.01 | milki | i was only able to steal 3 drinks too |
| 07:52.02 | danderson | you should visit zoogle on Fondue Day |
| 07:52.10 | kblin | hehe |
| 07:52.16 | danderson | talk about killing your will to work |
| 07:52.22 | milki | lol |
| 07:52.28 | kblin | danderson: invite me for a tech talk? ;) |
| 07:52.31 | danderson | feed an engineer with 1kg of melted cheese, and the nap room overflows :) |
| 07:52.36 | milki | our guide kicked us out after we started messing with things TT |
| 07:52.53 | danderson | kblin: sure, you got a topic in mind? |
| 07:53.04 | danderson | if it's open source, we can get you into an open source jam |
| 07:53.21 | danderson | if it's research or something, you can have a standalone tech talk, most likely |
| 07:53.41 | danderson | and if it's just for the food, you can just pop in and get a visitor's badge ;) |
| 07:54.00 | ajuonline | danderson: which office? |
| 07:54.02 | kblin | danderson: hm, good question. I was mostly kidding, but I can come up with something:) |
| 07:54.10 | danderson | ajuonline: Zurich, Switzerland |
| 07:54.24 | ajuonline | ah ok. you were internisng here as well, iirc |
| 07:54.28 | ajuonline | interning* |
| 07:54.40 | danderson | kblin: if you do want to give a talk, I'm sure we can arrange it; danderson (at) google.com, and I'll try to figure sth out |
| 07:54.41 | kblin | danderson: and no matter how good the fondue is, my own fondue is pretty decent and less expensive than the train trip ;) |
| 07:54.49 | danderson | kblin: where do you reside again? |
| 07:54.59 | kblin | danderson: Tübingen, Germany |
| 07:55.15 | danderson | how far would that be from zrh? |
| 07:55.29 | danderson | (can't gmaps it to figure out which part of Germany :) |
| 07:56.14 | kblin | it's like 3 hours by train, iirc |
| 07:56.22 | danderson | hmmkay |
| 07:56.28 | kblin | http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=TCbingen,+Germany&sll=48.514103,9.065635&sspn=0.010234,0.021887&g=Ludwigstra%9Fe+12,+72072+TCbingen&ie=UTF8&ll=48.520271,9.058313&spn=0.020466,0.043774&z=15&iwloc=addr |
| 07:56.44 | kblin | hm, figures.. stupid irc client |
| 07:56.46 | danderson | well, like I said, if you find a topic that you feel like talking about, I'm sure we could work something out |
| 07:57.21 | danderson | if it's open source, I'm sure we can, since there are semi-regular open source jam evenings in zurich |
| 07:57.36 | ajuonline | would love to come there to talk on Sahana :) |
| 07:57.39 | danderson | and if it's not, I'm pretty sure we can as well, I just don't know the details |
| 07:57.52 | kblin | danderson: I'll let you start work first :) |
| 07:57.53 | danderson | ajuonline: aren't you a little further away? :) |
| 07:58.17 | ajuonline | danderson: yeah india :P |
| 07:58.31 | danderson | kblin: heh, no worries. Email me when you think of something; after the 4th time, the "welcome to google" talks are going to be pretty boring ;) |
| 07:58.34 | ajuonline | i dont even know where on globe is zurich :) |
| 07:58.49 | danderson | ajuonline: western europe, between france/germany/italy |
| 07:58.52 | kblin | danderson: are you allowed to tell what you're going to be working on without having to send in the attack ninja squad? |
| 07:59.01 | ajuonline | sure i can look up on Google maps :) |
| 07:59.06 | danderson | in vague terms, yes |
| 07:59.26 | danderson | I'll likely be working on the Sitemaps processing infrastructure |
| 07:59.42 | danderson | the huge data cruncher that grabs sitemaps and feeds URL data to everything in google |
| 07:59.55 | kblin | ah... sounds... boring ;) |
| 08:00.20 | kblin | hmm |
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| 08:01.56 | kblin | looks at his own work and decides to be quiet about the boring part :) |
| 08:04.48 | kblin | wohoo. I just realized I managed to increase the number of posts to my blog by 25% this year |
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| 08:06.16 | ajuonline | me too |
| 08:06.18 | ajuonline | :) |
| 08:06.37 | ajuonline | in fact i think i have been blogging significantly more since I got working on gsoc :) |
| 08:07.09 | kblin | ajuonline: well, 8 vs. 10 is a 25% increase |
| 08:08.04 | mlankhorst | Not sure how statistically relevant it is |
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| 08:09.09 | kblin | mlankhorst: there's that |
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| 08:13.03 | kblin | au petit-déjeuner! |
| 08:13.11 | kblin | good warcry, actually |
| 08:13.15 | kblin | bbl |
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| 08:18.39 | milki | hm |
| 08:18.44 | milki | maybe i should do gsoc next summer |
| 08:20.31 | danderson | kblin: so, as I was saying before the ozymandns server process crashed and disconnected me... |
| 08:20.46 | danderson | it sounds boring, but that's because I can't detail the awesome pipeline that's processing this stuff :) |
| 08:21.08 | danderson | also, I'm hoping to grab a 20% project working on some bits of Android, but nothing certain yet |
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| 08:50.46 | kblin | danderson: fair enough |
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| 09:03.12 | Mario | kblin, quick question |
| 09:03.33 | Mario | do you have any idea if vb app connecting to access db can be made to work? |
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| 09:06.05 | kblin | Mario: sounds like odbc should handle that, but how did you got the idea I have any clue about VB? :) |
| 09:06.32 | Mario | kblin, I didn't, you were just the most-related person I know that I could ask xD |
| 09:06.42 | Mario | other then that, I tried everything ... it didn't work :/ |
| 09:08.59 | kblin | fair enough |
| 09:09.24 | kblin | you should be able to load dlls from vb |
| 09:09.40 | kblin | and then wrap the functions you need |
| 09:10.16 | kblin | of course this means you need odbc and an access db connector for that |
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| 09:10.34 | kendrick | yay, found a speaker for my LUG's 10 year anniversary meeting |
| 09:10.35 | kendrick | now i can go to bed. |
| 09:10.39 | kendrick | http://www.lugod.org/meeting/upcoming/#2009.01.19 |
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| 09:11.54 | kblin | night kendrick :) |
| 09:13.26 | Mario | kblin, so .... how are you doing? :)) |
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| 09:16.35 | kblin | not bad, waiting for some feedback on a feature proposal for samba, killing the wait time on adding more features to my webapp |
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| 09:18.19 | Mario | kblin, django/rails/php what? :) |
| 09:20.07 | kblin | pylons-based |
| 09:21.35 | Mario | kblin, aha, py :) |
| 09:21.47 | Mario | nice |
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| 09:22.21 | kblin | dunno, I hate GUI programming |
| 09:22.34 | kblin | and HTML is the worst choice for creating interfaces there is |
| 09:23.19 | easwar | kblin: may I venture it's the easiest too?For beginners at least? |
| 09:24.08 | easwar | kblin: I don't have any experience with other choices,so I may be wrong |
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| 09:24.53 | kblin | easwar: might be true |
| 09:25.15 | easwar | kblin: What else have you used? |
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| 09:25.55 | kblin | easwar: for a web-app, there's not much choice, is there? |
| 09:25.56 | ajuonline | hello easwar |
| 09:26.15 | easwar | ajuonline: hi |
| 09:26.23 | kblin | I usually do low-level stuff in C, so all this gui stuff is icky |
| 09:26.28 | ajuonline | easwar: nice to see you here :) |
| 09:26.42 | easwar | ajuonline: :) |
| 09:26.47 | ajuonline | easwar: kblin is a project mentor for the Wine project |
| 09:27.09 | easwar | ajuonline: oh,didn't know that |
| 09:27.56 | ajuonline | :) |
| 09:28.29 | easwar | hello again kblin |
| 09:32.56 | ajuonline | kblin: easwar is gearing up for the new summer of code. from india. and new to foss as well. |
| 09:33.57 | kblin | ah :) |
| 09:34.00 | pygi | ajuonline, and samba and that game thingy too |
| 09:34.01 | pygi | :) |
| 09:34.03 | kblin | hi easwar :) |
| 09:34.12 | easwar | kblin: Hi |
| 09:34.14 | pygi | oh, worldforge :p |
| 09:34.17 | kblin | :) |
| 09:35.11 | easwar | kblin: Is Wine just Codeweavers without the support,or is Codeweavers just a major contributor? |
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| 09:37.49 | kblin | CodeWeavers is a major contributor to Wine, providing some add-on features and support.. |
| 09:38.33 | kblin | but Wine's been around longer than codeweavers, so callingit "just crossover without support" isn't fair :) |
| 09:38.53 | easwar | kblin: meaning there is Wine code which is not Codeweavers,and the Wine project is different from Codeweavers |
| 09:38.59 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 09:41.28 | kblin | the difference between the Wine<->CodeWeavers connection as opposed to, say OpenOffice<->Sun is that CodeWeavers has no say in what patches get into Wine. |
| 09:42.52 | easwar | kblin: ohk |
| 09:43.40 | easwar | kblin: which *may* mean that not all code Codeweavers generates is good enough to get into Wine....:P |
| 09:43.58 | easwar | kblin: not implying that,just a possibility |
| 09:45.37 | mlankhorst | True |
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| 09:47.17 | easwar | mlankhorst: Was that True for the "codeweavers code not good enough" statement or was it just acknowledging the possibility? |
| 09:47.53 | mlankhorst | Sometimes we have shortcuts |
| 09:48.13 | easwar | kblin: I think what kblin means to say ideally is the Wine retains independence as a project even though Codeweavers is a major contributor |
| 09:48.20 | easwar | *is that Wine |
| 09:48.22 | mlankhorst | It is independent |
| 09:48.40 | nowhere | kicks his ipv6 connection |
| 09:48.53 | nowhere | easwar: it is independent |
| 09:49.38 | easwar | nowhere mlankhorst :Thanks for the confirmation |
| 09:50.33 | mlankhorst | julliard has signed a contract which states he can reject any patch if he feels like it |
| 09:51.50 | mlankhorst | Furthermore copyright stays with the contributers |
| 09:53.30 | easwar | apologies for the late reply |
| 09:53.41 | easwar | mlankhorst: but under GPL,nonetheless |
| 09:53.51 | easwar | mlankhorst: correct? |
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| 09:55.05 | kblin | LGPL |
| 09:55.19 | mlankhorst | LGPL |
| 09:55.21 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 09:55.58 | easwar | mlankhorst: What did you mean by "Sometimes we have shortcuts"? |
| 09:56.24 | kblin | I don't get the "nonetheless".. how is the fact that the copyright stays with the contributors under a free license negative |
| 09:56.25 | kblin | ? |
| 09:56.55 | easwar | kblin: It's not |
| 09:57.06 | mlankhorst | easwar: Codeweavers has their own wine tree with some patches to make specific applications work. |
| 09:58.05 | easwar | mlankhorst: related to the shortcuts remark,or just for information? |
| 09:58.45 | kblin | direct answer to the shortcut question |
| 09:58.46 | mlankhorst | Just doing things which are not entirely correct, or entirely incorrect |
| 09:59.26 | mlankhorst | Easiest example would be a fictional one, modifying strcmp to return 0 on strcmp("foo", "bar") |
| 09:59.49 | smtms | because some app really expects it? |
| 10:00.05 | mlankhorst | As I said, it's a fictional example |
| 10:00.19 | smtms | I read what you said |
| 10:00.23 | mlankhorst | That kind of code would never make it into wine, but it might make it in cw tree |
| 10:00.25 | kblin | smtms: because that's easier to fix than the place that returns "bar" in the first place where it _should_ be foo |
| 10:00.44 | smtms | oh, now it's becoming clear |
| 10:00.49 | mlankhorst | Yeah |
| 10:01.11 | easwar | mlankhorst: hmm |
| 10:02.13 | easwar | mlankhorst: meaning codeweavers sacrifices correctness so that apps work? |
| 10:02.24 | kblin | probably everybody who ever tried to make an app work in wine by hacking on wine does that at some point |
| 10:02.38 | mlankhorst | easwar: Yup |
| 10:02.39 | easwar | mlankhorst: because of the crippled way in which those apps are coded? |
| 10:02.54 | mlankhorst | Usually because it would take ages to implement it correctly |
| 10:03.06 | kblin | easwar: because sometimes it's easier and/or faster to do a hack |
| 10:03.09 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 10:03.43 | easwar | kblin: But such ugly hacks usually don't make it to the wine tree |
| 10:03.46 | mlankhorst | For example an application wants to verify the signature of a dll |
| 10:03.54 | mlankhorst | So we just return 'ok, signature correct' |
| 10:04.40 | kblin | easwar: of course not |
| 10:04.40 | mlankhorst | Oh wait, that might actually make it into wine |
| 10:04.40 | mlankhorst | Sigh, need better example lol |
| 10:04.40 | kblin | mlankhorst: yeah, bad example |
| 10:04.40 | easwar | mlankhorst: think while I get my thoughts back in order too |
| 10:04.40 | easwar | :P |
| 10:04.40 | kblin | mlankhorst: but e.g. returning a device path for a hadcoded uuid |
| 10:04.50 | mlankhorst | Ok, now the app is picky, and wants a certain dll to fail the test |
| 10:05.14 | mlankhorst | So we can do if (!strcmp(name "dll")) return FAIL; |
| 10:05.18 | mlankhorst | That wouldn't make itinto wine |
| 10:06.26 | easwar | mlankhorst: That means wine doesn't always cater to the apps' whims and fancies so that it runs correctly |
| 10:06.44 | easwar | mlankhorst: *it=the app |
| 10:06.51 | mlankhorst | True |
| 10:06.55 | kblin | the basic difference is that wine is a technology and crossover is a product |
| 10:07.06 | mlankhorst | Wine just wants to run correctly |
| 10:07.18 | kblin | a technology needs to be right, a product just needs to work |
| 10:07.43 | kblin | at least that's all I care about when I get a product |
| 10:07.56 | mlankhorst | Yup |
| 10:08.21 | easwar | mlankhorst kblin :hmm |
| 10:10.04 | mlankhorst | Because other apps might need the same functionality properly |
| 10:10.40 | easwar | mlankhorst: and it's too compicated if we keep creating special cases for different apps |
| 10:10.47 | easwar | *complicated |
| 10:11.31 | easwar | mlankhorst: as we said,we can't cater to every app's whims and fancies |
| 10:11.34 | kblin | the point is maintainability |
| 10:11.36 | mlankhorst | Worst of all, it's discouraging people to implement it properly |
| 10:12.54 | easwar | mlankhorst: and that's what codeweavers charges for because they have to take the headache of managing every app's crippled implementation |
| 10:13.45 | mlankhorst | All code that is not a hack will be contributed to wine first |
| 10:14.10 | easwar | mlankhorst: as an obligation? |
| 10:14.18 | easwar | mlankhorst: don't think so |
| 10:14.44 | mlankhorst | It's the rule of open source ;p |
| 10:15.27 | easwar | mlankhorst: that you contribute your code to every project which has much the same aims as yours? |
| 10:16.02 | mlankhorst | If I want to make an application working in codeweavers I first contribute all patches that are not hacks to wine |
| 10:16.47 | easwar | mlankhorst: or else? |
| 10:17.14 | kblin | easwar: no. maintainability again.. it's a huge pain to keep maintaining a huge amount of patches on top of a project as fast-changing as Wine |
| 10:17.31 | mlankhorst | Or else we would just be another cedega fork |
| 10:18.02 | kblin | easwar: lots of companies do that with one project or the other |
| 10:19.24 | mlankhorst | I wouldn't be a good open source citizen otherwise.. |
| 10:19.51 | easwar | mlankhorst,kblin :I'm not getting you,what I want to ask is whether it's an obligation that all code submitted to codeweavers has to be submitted to wine too? |
| 10:20.07 | mlankhorst | Most code will be submitted |
| 10:20.08 | mlankhorst | minus hacks |
| 10:20.09 | easwar | mlankhorst: kblin :assuming it's not an ugly hack? |
| 10:20.57 | easwar | mlankhorst kblin :hmm |
| 10:24.34 | kblin | I don't submit code to codeweavers.. I'm a wine developer, not a codeweavers employee |
| 10:25.25 | easwar | kblin: as said,Wine retains independence |
| 10:25.47 | easwar | kblin: and going by your statement,Wine gets everything from codeweavers |
| 10:26.10 | easwar | kblin: and codeweavers gets the tag of being a FOSS friendly organization |
| 10:26.33 | easwar | kblin: correct? |
| 10:26.51 | kblin | yes. but that's not the point |
| 10:27.11 | kblin | I bet codeweavers would love it to be able to just sell Wine without any custom patches.. |
| 10:27.22 | easwar | kblin: hmm.But of course |
| 10:27.27 | kblin | that'd mean less work for them |
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| 10:28.15 | easwar | kblin: But I guess Wine would run less apps correctly because of it's refusal to use crude hacks |
| 10:28.26 | kblin | no |
| 10:28.47 | kblin | I actually guess Wine runs more apps correctly because of the refusal to accept crude hacks |
| 10:29.16 | easwar | kblin: How so?Adobe(for eg) isn't going to change it's crippled implementation because Wine can't run it? |
| 10:29.45 | kblin | back before I got involved in Wine, I used cedega for a while and stopped using it because the new hacks they added to make new games work broke the old hacks they added that made the games work I wanted to play |
| 10:30.30 | kblin | wine might run a couple of high profile apps less well, but in the long run, using hacks will only hurt you |
| 10:30.42 | easwar | kblin: That would be bad maintenance and regression checks rather than the acceptance of crude hacks,wouldn't it? |
| 10:30.49 | kblin | no |
| 10:30.57 | easwar | kblin: then? |
| 10:30.57 | kblin | they were aware the old games broke |
| 10:31.24 | easwar | kblin: but still used the hacks |
| 10:31.51 | kblin | but if 90% of your customers use e.g. world of warcraft and 10% use some other games, then it makes sense to focus on the 90% that use WoW |
| 10:31.54 | easwar | kblin: doesn't that point to negligence and bad regression checks? |
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| 10:32.06 | easwar | kblin: but of course |
| 10:32.34 | kblin | and if you need a fix to make 90% of your customers happy and that makes 1% of your customers unhappy, why hold back on it |
| 10:33.09 | easwar | kblin: then why would you blame cedega?They did what they needed to do to maintain profitability |
| 10:33.32 | kblin | as I said, as a customer, I care about my product working |
| 10:33.55 | kblin | I don't care about the company's profit margin or about the product working for other people |
| 10:34.18 | easwar | kblin: true |
| 10:34.30 | easwar | kblin: if you are dissatisfied,you move on |
| 10:34.35 | kblin | yeah |
| 10:34.36 | easwar | kblin: which you did |
| 10:35.06 | kblin | but my point is that it's much easier to not break old stuff when they're implemented correctly, not hacked |
| 10:37.07 | easwar | which comes to my point Why would Adobe change it's implementation when Wine can't runit? |
| 10:37.27 | kblin | I don't see what this has to do with accepting hacks or not? |
| 10:38.13 | easwar | kblin: if you don't accept a hack,dreamweaver (for eg) doesn't run |
| 10:38.19 | kblin | wrong |
| 10:38.30 | kblin | I bet it's possible to make that app work without a hack |
| 10:38.46 | kblin | it likely works on windows without a hack, after all |
| 10:38.56 | easwar | kblin: without adobe changing it's imlementation? |
| 10:39.00 | kblin | yes |
| 10:39.02 | easwar | *implementation |
| 10:39.13 | pygi | easwar, wine is a windows api implementation |
| 10:39.20 | easwar | kblin: know that |
| 10:39.27 | pygi | so if it runs on windows, it can work on wine too |
| 10:39.29 | pygi | eventually |
| 10:39.40 | kblin | it's just a matter of making wine do the right thing |
| 10:39.57 | kblin | and you don't have to use a hack for that |
| 10:40.45 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 10:41.22 | easwar | kblin: so you would prefer learning over time than a shortcut to getting it work here and now |
| 10:41.50 | kblin | yeah, because I don't need to earn money with it |
| 10:41.57 | kblin | that's the nice part about open source.. |
| 10:41.58 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 10:42.03 | easwar | kblin: :) |
| 10:42.17 | kblin | you finally get to make things right, not just "work somehow" |
| 10:42.27 | easwar | kblin: nice :) |
| 10:42.40 | kblin | and I'd argue that in the long run, it'll actually save time |
| 10:43.01 | kblin | you just need to think more long term than companies usually do |
| 10:43.07 | easwar | how,may I ask? |
| 10:43.21 | easwar | save time,that is |
| 10:45.00 | kblin | ok, so if, instead of making wine do the right thing (e.g. return "foo" where it should return "foo" but currently returns "bar", assuming that's sort of a hard fix), hack strcmp to return strcmp"foo" |
| 10:45.42 | easwar | kblin: ok |
| 10:45.51 | kblin | strcmp("foo", "bar") being 0, but later run into an app that for some reason depends on the same strcmp being != like it should be, I might have forgotten that I added the hack |
| 10:46.11 | kblin | so I spend hours debugging my app, and then I need to make wine do the right thing anyway |
| 10:46.30 | kblin | so if I do the right thing from the start, I save the hours spent on debugging the hack |
| 10:46.47 | easwar | kblin: hmm,at the cost of the crippled app not running at all |
| 10:47.03 | kblin | huh? |
| 10:47.17 | kblin | why? |
| 10:47.26 | kblin | doing the right thing would make both apps work |
| 10:47.52 | easwar | kblin: how?The first app needed to be returned foo |
| 10:48.04 | kblin | ok, stupid example... |
| 10:48.09 | easwar | kblin: while the 2nd needed to be returned bar |
| 10:48.12 | kblin | let's come up with another one |
| 10:48.18 | easwar | kblin: ok |
| 10:49.48 | kblin | so imagine a call named "GetProccessName()" that returns the name of the current process. |
| 10:50.00 | kblin | so far, no app ever used it, so it's not implemented in Wine |
| 10:50.10 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 10:50.31 | kblin | now you run across a program that depends on this call to return the program's name |
| 10:51.01 | kblin | let's call the app "foo.exe" |
| 10:51.16 | kblin | the quick fix is to implement GetProcessName() like this: |
| 10:51.44 | kblin | static char* GetProcessName(void) { return "foo.exe"; } |
| 10:52.00 | easwar | kblin: hardcoding it in |
| 10:52.09 | kblin | if you just care about foo.exe, that's all you need, and it takes you about 10 seconds |
| 10:52.34 | kblin | but the name is hardcoded, so it doesn't work for any app besides "app.exe" |
| 10:52.51 | kblin | the correct implementation requires much more work |
| 10:53.49 | easwar | kblin: hmm,but this is the problem of the hack |
| 10:54.31 | easwar | kblin: withdrawn |
| 10:54.42 | easwar | kblin: that is fine,no problem |
| 10:54.48 | kblin | now, if you happen to run across another app, "bar.exe" at some later point, it might not be obvious why it's failing and take loads of time to debug to figure out that it at some point calls GetProcessName(), gets a return of "app.exe" instead "bar.exe" and fails due to that at a later point |
| 10:55.26 | kblin | so after wasting a couple of hours to find out why bar.exe was failing, you can now do two things |
| 10:55.52 | kblin | a) you decide you no longer care about foo.exe and change GetProcessName() to return "bar.exe" |
| 10:56.22 | kblin | b) you bite the bullet and fix GetProcessName() to always return the process name and not some hardcoded value |
| 10:56.34 | easwar | a is is what cedega did |
| 10:56.34 | kblin | a) is what keeps happening in cedega |
| 10:57.08 | kblin | and if you decide to do b), you could have done the right thing in the first place |
| 10:57.17 | kblin | and saved time |
| 10:58.44 | easwar | kblin: hmm,and you say that Codeweavers incorporates those ugly hacks while Wine doesn't |
| 10:59.25 | kblin | no. I said wine doesn't allow these. codeweavers sometimes might |
| 10:59.48 | easwar | kblin: therefore Wine may run those apps late,but run them correctly while Codeweavers will run them here and now but risk breakages later |
| 11:00.06 | easwar | kblin: hmm,thanks for the carification |
| 11:00.17 | easwar | kblin: *clarification |
| 11:00.31 | kblin | in my experience, codeweavers sometimes might go for the hack if they're in a hurry but usually opt for the b) choice at some point |
| 11:00.48 | easwar | kblin: hmm |
| 11:01.08 | kblin | and if they're done with b), the result will end up in wine for sure |
| 11:01.16 | easwar | kblin: ok |
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| 11:05.09 | easwar | Sup3rkiddo: Hi |
| 11:05.24 | Sup3rkiddo | easwar, ola |
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| 11:10.52 | easwar | kblin: so wine may support certain apps late,but will eventually get there,with something that will not break even when new apps come into the stream |
| 11:11.19 | kblin | yeah |
| 11:11.40 | easwar | kblin: hmm,good |
| 11:11.50 | easwar | kblin: nice speaking to you |
| 11:11.59 | easwar | offers a virtual handshake |
| 11:12.42 | kblin | glad I could help |
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| 11:35.09 | kblin | whoa |
| 11:35.21 | kblin | kubuntu 8.10 is so broken.. |
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| 12:04.24 | easwar | kblin: broken as in? |
| 12:05.05 | nithinkumary21 | I would wait for another month before I upgrade to ibex |
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| 12:17.06 | ajuonline | nithinkumary21: i dont recommend either :P |
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| 13:50.05 | r0bby | gg |
| 13:50.08 | r0bby | ugh |
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| 16:09.39 | MatthewWilkes | hm, 148 tabs, no wonder foxydoxy was getting a little sluggish |
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| 16:21.46 | ajuonline|zzz | i need a free firewall app for my windows |
| 16:21.55 | ajuonline|zzz | any suggestions? |
| 16:22.24 | summatusmentis | ajuonline|zzz: when I was using windows I used ZoneAlarm |
| 16:22.36 | Landon | kicks google calendar |
| 16:22.47 | Landon | all of my schedules went back an hour |
| 16:23.38 | summatusmentis | mine all seem to be fine |
| 16:24.48 | ajuonline|zzz | summatusmentis: that after a while crashes. and blocks my internet. |
| 16:24.50 | ajuonline|zzz | had to uninstall |
| 16:25.04 | ajuonline|zzz | i had been a fan of ZA too |
| 16:25.13 | Ivanovic | hiho |
| 16:25.17 | ajuonline|zzz | hohi |
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| 16:42.51 | MatthewWilkes | buys his Wacken 2009 ticket |
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| 16:49.15 | kblin | MatthewWilkes: whacko ;) |
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| 16:59.03 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Well, I can't go to Hellfest, their website is in php and depends on flash 10 |
| 16:59.11 | MatthewWilkes | I can't condone such things |
| 16:59.16 | MatthewWilkes | besides, they speak french |
| 17:01.31 | kblin | hehe |
| 17:02.22 | MatthewWilkes | Hamburg's a great city too, I always hang around there for a few days afterwards |
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| 17:05.51 | Landon | Daylight Savings has me all invigorated |
| 17:05.54 | Landon | and ready to work on a project |
| 17:05.58 | Landon | or do homework |
| 17:06.02 | Landon | or something |
| 17:06.18 | summatusmentis | daylight savings time was screwing with me last night |
| 17:06.27 | MatthewWilkes | got me on the way back from the summit |
| 17:06.31 | MatthewWilkes | we change a week earlier |
| 17:06.37 | Landon | but for some reason google calendar sent me an alert at 10:30AM thismorning |
| 17:06.40 | Landon | instead of 11:30 |
| 17:06.48 | MatthewWilkes | I was fucked off to land and find out that I'd forgotten about it so could have got an earlier coach home |
| 17:06.53 | Landon | I checked it and it was 11:30 on the calednar page :\ |
| 17:07.05 | Landon | MatthewWilkes: at least you didn't miss your coach :) |
| 17:07.16 | MatthewWilkes | Landon: No, but I had to wait 4 hours for the next one |
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| 17:07.27 | Landon | ech |
| 17:07.40 | MatthewWilkes | which left me with abour 3 hours sleep before work |
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| 17:16.55 | MatthewWilkes | god damn wisdom teeth |
| 17:17.26 | summatusmentis | MatthewWilkes: :( |
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| 18:05.52 | Landon | http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KhIIKmJ4wWc/SQiViteeCUI/AAAAAAAAAFU/tnhGeVNgfa8/s1600-h/Architectuur+5+2008+vz+v5.jpg oh thats neato |
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| 18:08.42 | MatthewWilkes | Landon: That's niiiice |
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| 18:11.54 | ajuonline|zzz | is out of his mind today |
| 18:11.55 | ajuonline|zzz | :) |
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| 21:11.51 | kblin | ew, gentoo.. |
| 21:11.53 | kblin | ;) |
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| 21:26.44 | mlankhorst | I thought you used gentoo kblin |
| 21:27.33 | kblin | when I want to watch my cpus work, I compile wine |
| 21:29.24 | milki | lol |
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| 21:39.17 | Landon | omg |
| 21:39.22 | Landon | splinters are evil plotters |
| 21:39.30 | Landon | I just tore up a bit of skin on my finger trying to get it out |
| 21:39.33 | Landon | and its only a little thing |
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| 23:17.59 | Landon | I never thought I'd say it, but this game is really freaking me out :\ (Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines) |
| 23:19.18 | ``Erik_ | the white wolf pen&paper one? |
| 23:21.10 | jaguarandi | suffers from pos-SoC depression :O |
| 23:24.30 | ``Erik_ | I'm torn, the "crud, it's over *pout*" aspect, but the energy and geekiness of it enthused me and I actually started coding again O.o |
| 23:24.37 | Landon | ``Erik_: yeah,for PC |
| 23:24.44 | Landon | I'm in a haunted hotel |
| 23:24.48 | Landon | and vases are flying at me |
| 23:24.54 | Landon | women are running down distant corridors |
| 23:24.58 | Landon | stairs are collapsing |
| 23:25.01 | Landon | lights are burning out |
| 23:26.20 | ``Erik_ | huh, there's a video game? nutty, I heard they started making card games, but I haven't really paid attention in the last, uh, 13 years :) |
| 23:26.50 | Landon | hehe |
| 23:26.54 | Landon | its a couple of years old now |
| 23:26.57 | Landon | but its good... |
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