IRC log for #gsoc on 20090204

00:00.47dandersonMatthewWilkes: the router is a weakling wrt54g with openwrt
00:01.13dandersonI'm struggling to get iptraf installed to figure out if it's just the ISP sucking, or if someone is leeching the bw
00:01.21scorcherecently ordered a WRT600N <3
00:01.38dandersonjeez, I still have a whiterussian on here
00:01.41dandersonisn't that epic old?
00:01.57scorcheit isnt that old
00:02.22dandersonstill doesn't have a quick monitor like iptraf available
00:03.04scorchebut it is definitely one of their best imo...they still had external antennas, gigabit, dual-band, etc...their upgrade to that (the WRT610N) had crappy radios
00:03.27scorchemmm...dual radios...
00:06.39dandersonheh
00:06.51dandersona friend is pimping his own setup to me
00:07.07scorcheand what would that be?
00:07.17dandersonmini-itx router board with a 3xGigE extension daughtercard
00:07.32dandersonwith real backplanes throughout, and a real debian onboard (boot off flash)
00:07.35scorcheheh...too much work
00:08.32dandersonhonestly, I wouldn't mind if I could get traffic metrics and a full complement of tools to shut down offending abusers
00:08.40dandersonoh, and a real netfilter QoS engine
00:08.57scorchedd-wrt should be enough for me
00:09.23dandersondoes it do what I want?
00:09.34dandersonif it does that better than openwrt, I'm all over it
00:09.55scorchewhat do you want again?...better QoS?
00:10.27dandersonwell, QoS at all, htb+sfq in netfilter would do just fine
00:11.02dandersonand maybe some kind of export service to grab traffic data for graphing
00:11.07dandersonkinda like snmp, only less insane ;)
00:11.14scorcheit should do both
00:11.46scorchethough, it depends on what version you can fit in your router
00:12.32scorchehttp://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Quality_of_Service
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00:12.59dandersonshouldn't be a problem
00:13.03dandersonI have the uber wrt
00:13.10dandersonWRT54GSv2
00:13.20dandersonmaximum ram/flash, enhanced radio :)
00:13.31scorchepfft....WRT600N > that
00:13.33scorche;0
00:13.35scorche;)
00:15.00scorchehttp://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Using_RFlow_Collector_and_MySQL_To_Gather_Traffic_Information
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00:59.15MatthewWilkesHey, has anyone tried using something like scrums as part of GSoC student tracking?
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00:59.50MatthewWilkesCame to me on the way home from work today, wondered if anyone else has tried short daily (or near daily) meetings
00:59.56MatthewWilkeswith all students
01:02.40Landonscrums?
01:03.03MatthewWilkesLandon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)#Meetings
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02:42.12dberkholzMatthewWilkes: well, we do a lot of our stuff on irc. that's basically the same thing in an informal sense
02:43.57MatthewWilkesdberkholz: Well, scrums are pretty informal, and it's not like we'd really care if the student didn't work for a couple of days, we're quite flexible, but I think it'd keep it in mind
02:44.37dberkholzi chatted with my student pretty much every day
02:44.47dberkholzi think communication is the golden path to success
02:46.54MatthewWilkesYeah, I think we (Plone) need a bit more process if we get accepted this year, I think we didn't provide enough structure for our students and some got lazy, others went into caves
02:47.11summatusmentisstructre, at least for me, is helpful
02:47.49summatusmentisexcept with an extra 'u' thrown in
02:47.56MatthewWilkes:)
02:48.18summatusmentisI mean, only if you want :-P
02:48.46MatthewWilkesI'll probably write up a draft of what I'm thinking and send it out to the list soliciting comments from past students
02:49.08MatthewWilkesI personally think it's a good idea, but would like to know from those lucky enough to have done soc
02:51.50summatusmentisI mean, I wouldn't want to be micro-managed, but it's easier for me to have small goals to meet
02:52.01summatusmentissmaller*
02:53.11MatthewWilkesYeah, this wouldn't be management, just daily status updates
02:53.44MatthewWilkesup to you and your mentor to discuss things in detail, set targets, etc
02:54.10MatthewWilkesbut this would get you talking to your fellow students about what problems you've had in the last day and where you're going next
02:54.17summatusmentisas somone who will probably never work on Plone, I approve :-P
02:54.36MatthewWilkeslol
02:54.40MatthewWilkesThat's not why I'm asking!
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03:38.27dandersonokay, dd-wrt wins
03:38.40dandersonlive bandwidth monitoring in the admin interface? win.
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03:43.52scorche=)
03:44.51dandersonalso, I win geek points
03:45.19Landondistributes a handful of keeg points to danderson
03:45.27dandersonI installed dd-wrt over my openwrt install over http, with the router proper in my flatmate's room
03:45.33dandersonso inaccessible in case of brickage
03:45.41dandersonand I succeeded!
03:46.28Landon*one more geek point tumbles out of the dispenser*
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03:46.47scorchesnatches it up for himself
03:48.28Landonso, assembly is really fun
03:48.50dandersonthat it is
03:48.57dandersonespecially decent assemblers, like arm
03:49.17dandersonbut I assume you meant the Black Speech of x86
03:49.18Landonmostly because it seems to be a language based on fun little tricks, and also because I know definitively what each opcode does :D
03:49.34dandersonLandon: oh, you really have no idea
03:49.50dandersonthe processors do insane things you can't even begin to imagine to implement the opcodes
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03:50.13scorchegoats, sheep, horses, etc
03:50.13dandersonalso look up out of order execution
03:50.28dandersonlooks nice and sequential in the source code
03:50.37dandersonbut in reality, anything goes
03:50.40Landonok, well, the microcontroller we're using only has 300 some instructions :P
03:50.44danderson(except memory barriers, but eh)
03:50.52dandersonooh, microcontroller
03:50.58dandersonthen yeah, you pretty much know what it's doing
03:51.02dandersonwhat core?
03:51.06LandonHC08
03:51.39dandersonas in 68HC08?
03:51.44dandersonold skool.
03:51.55Landonyeah, some derivative of that
03:52.03dandersonfreescale RS08?
03:52.09Landonlet me look
03:52.11dandersonin any case, fun
03:52.16dandersonthe lowliest controller I ever played with was a 68HC11
03:52.40LandonHCS08
03:52.41dandersonthe instruction set was horrible, but I cut my assembler teeth on it, after having learned to read pidgin x86
03:53.05dandersonbut, well, arm <3
03:53.25dandersonlovely instruction set, neat speed hacks (yay conditional execution flags on most opcodes)
03:53.45dandersonand also well used in the real world, which is always nice
03:53.47summatusmentisnot terribly excited to learn asm
03:54.04Landonis it normal for there to be completely idiotic sounding instructions though?
03:54.12Landonlike branch never
03:54.13Landon:\
03:54.42dandersonLandon: do many/all opcodes have the conditional bits?
03:54.47theboltassembly is nice sometimes.. but in general just a pain
03:54.53dandersoneg. can you do "add if zero set" ?
03:55.04LandonI don
03:55.08Landon't believe so
03:55.24dandersonokay, then branch never probably has a couple of useful side-effects
03:55.35danderson1) it eats instruction cycles, effectively NOP
03:56.23danderson2) depending on the internals of your chip, it may cause instruction pipelines to flush, which is sometimes useful (eg. when you remap the memory under your feet from flash to ram and need to continue executing out of ram)
03:56.50dandersonbut on such a small uc, dunno if you even have a multi stage instruction pipeline to flush
03:57.44danderson3) may also have various side effects on condition bits and its operands; if that is the case these side-effects are probably common to the branching instruction family, and would be documented as such
03:57.47theboltwell, even the 16 series PIC have a multistage pipeline.. (heck, i think even 12 do)
03:58.03danderson4) maybe the chip designer just wanted to mess with your head
03:58.10dandersonthis happens sometimes
03:58.12Landonheh
03:58.18dandersonsee the original 68k design
03:58.25dandersonwith the orthogonal-but-not-quite instruction set
03:58.58dandersonLandon: if you find an authoritative answer on the branch never, I'm interested
03:59.39Landontoo
03:59.58dandersonI'm mostly formulating hypotheses based on various behaviors of the arm branch instructions (most notably, the confusing action of branching to the next instruction is useful, since it flushes the instruction pipeline)
04:00.12Landonprobably beyond the scope of the course at any rate
04:00.31dandersonis there an explicit NOP instruction?
04:00.37Landonyeah
04:00.50Landonuses 1 cycle, BRN uses 3
04:00.51dandersonin the instruction set, not only an assembler mnemonic?
04:00.58dandersonfun.
04:00.59Landonyeah
04:01.12danderson3 cycles would jive with a 3 stage instruction pipeline
04:01.25thebolt"Never branches. In effect, this instruction can be considered a 2-byte no operation (NOP) requiring
04:01.28theboltthree cycles for execution. Its inclusion in the instruction set provides a complement for the BRA
04:01.29dandersonwith the cpu having to spin for 2 extra cycles while the pipeline repopulates
04:01.30Landonnow, what's an instruction pipeline? :P
04:01.31theboltinstruction. The BRN instruction is useful during program debugging to negate the effect of another
04:01.34theboltbranch instruction without disturbing the offset byte."
04:01.37theboltfrom the hsc08 ref manual
04:01.42dandersonaah, nice.
04:02.00dandersonLandon: executing an instruction has various stages
04:02.09dandersonin simpler cpus, fetch -> decode -> execute
04:02.11thebolti think you have BRN in pretty much all 68k derivatives.. and it is excellent for patching stuff
04:02.39dandersonso most cpus have a pipeline, where instruction N executes while instruction N+1 decodes while instruction N+2 is being fetched
04:02.52dandersonthat way you don't waste cycles waiting on getting instructions to the core
04:02.55theboltas you can replace any branch with BRN by only changing the instruction word and not changing the length of the instruction stream
04:02.56Landonaha
04:03.08dandersonthe minor complication is that whenever you branch, you have to flush the instruction pipeline
04:03.12dandersonand start feeding it anew
04:03.50dandersonalso, more complex CPUs have larger instruction pipelines
04:04.00dandersonarm7 has only 3, arm9 has 5
04:04.12dandersonand istr x86 has a dozen or so nowadays, but I'm not sure
04:05.04dandersonin higher end cpus, you also end up having branch prediction, where the cpu detects branches early, takes a guess at which way the branch will go, and starts feeding instructions from that location into the pipeline
04:05.08thebolton x86 it depends on what implementation and what type of instructions
04:05.16theboltP4 had (at most) 47 stage pipeline
04:05.24dandersonso if the branch is correctly predicted, you don't take the pipeline flush hit
04:05.25dandersonouch.
04:05.33dandersonI must have been on 486 still :P
04:05.43dandersonthebolt: got some docs on the internals of the P4 somewhere?
04:05.52thebolthm.. not around here
04:05.59thebolti do at home.. other side of the planet ;)
04:06.00Landonsounds interesting, makes me glad I chose to be in computer engineering :P
04:06.02dandersonI wanted to look up how they got out of order execution implemented
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04:06.15theboltbut the intel architecture manual have some details (on netburst architecture)
04:06.21dandersonshiny
04:06.26dandersonI need to order myself a copy
04:06.34theboltits available as pdf as well
04:06.40theboltbut yes, i have a copy at home
04:06.43theboltis handy as reference
04:07.02dandersonwe tried to order a couple of copies of all the manuals with a colleague
04:07.06dandersonbut they only sent the one set
04:07.10danderson... bastards
04:07.18dandersonso I need to order another set from a different email :P
04:07.34thebolti ordered two sets when i worked for ageia.. one for me and one for work, got both at same time
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04:08.49theboltvolume 1, chapter 2 has some info on the OOE
04:08.53thebolthttp://download.intel.com/design/processor/manuals/253665.pdf
04:09.13theboltbut in my view OOE is a bad thing..
04:09.17dandersoncool, thx for the ref
04:09.21dandersonbut going to sleep right now
04:09.33dandersonthebolt: why? Coherency madness?
04:09.58theboltno, but it complicates the chip alot
04:09.59theboltmakes it larger, more power hungry
04:10.03dandersonwell, eh
04:10.07theboltand makes it hard to get the last percent of performance as you don't have deterministic performance
04:10.23dandersonwith current chip technologies, it still helps a lot, no?
04:10.38thebolti think there is a reason Xenon (Xbox 360), Cell and Suns T2 are in-order
04:10.57dandersonso why not x86?
04:11.52theboltwell, technically all of those came after x86 started using out-of-order
04:12.11theboltbut yes, it does help performance in many cases.. at least when you have highly branching code
04:12.23theboltIA64/Itanium(2) doesn't use it either btw..
04:12.35dandersonwell, IA64 was such a huge success... ;P
04:12.53dandersonbut I guess that removing that from x86 now would be too hard
04:13.15theboltitanium2 is a terribly good processor for HPC-applications
04:13.18dandersonthe programming model would change quite a bit if all of a sudden your cpu executes ordered
04:13.42dandersonanyway, bed. My alarm clock tells me I get up in 4hrs.
04:13.47thebolthehe :) sleep well
04:21.01theboltLandon: stay away from low-level coding on x86.. it hurts :P
04:24.27LandonI'll keep that in mind :P
04:25.36Landonalthough I hope to specialize in architecture
04:26.34Landonwonders if that's a win because I'd get to get around to different architectures, or a loss, because I might be expected to deal closer with existing well established ones :P
04:27.56theboltdanderson: http://download.intel.com/design/processor/manuals/248966.pdf chapter 2 is a good read as well
04:28.15theboltwell, its never bad to know more ;)
04:29.25thebolti'm also targeting somethign similar.. software/hardware boundary.. system level software / "high level hardware" (ie configurable hardware, fpga/SOG-chips etc)
04:29.38theboltalthough i guess in my case more of an embedded-system view of it
04:30.16theboltthe courses i took this semester was a bit too much to the hardware side ;)
04:30.23theboltthis/last
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05:33.10johndbritton!logs
05:33.11socinfo"logs" is (#1) new logs here: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/, or (#2) old logs here: http://natulte.net/~dave/gsoclogs/, or (#3) stats here: http://lfowles.org/irc/gsoc/stats.htm
05:33.20Landon:o
05:33.39Landonwonders where the highlight is
05:33.48Landonah
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06:14.30xkennethso what's the deal with taxes?
06:15.06xkennethnobody home?
06:18.40Ori_Bxkenneth: you're responsible for them. IIRC, Google will send you a form if you're in the states, though.
06:18.45Ori_BI think it's in the faq
06:18.50Ori_B!faq
06:18.51socinfo"faq" is http://code.google.com/soc/2008/faqs.html
06:19.31Ori_B*bed*
06:21.20xkennethOri_B: is it?
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09:33.35Landonjust finished Primer
09:33.39Landonall I have to saw is wowee
09:33.45Landonwowee zowee even
09:33.59LandonThe Prestige has nothing on it
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10:08.48straydawgLandon: Primer the movie?
10:09.04straydawg(yes it rocks)
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11:29.20kblinphew
11:29.25kblinstupid ati driver
11:29.47kblinI just had a white line on my laptop's lcd, even in console mode
11:29.56kblinbut after a reboot, it's gone
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14:31.43lithi all
14:37.01aghislahi all, hi lit
14:37.17aghislaany R mentor around?
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16:02.24Landonstraydawg: I might have to watch it a few more times
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16:49.03straydawgLandon: it's incomprehensible imho
16:49.22straydawgLandon: i've more-or-less given up on understanding the whole thing (if that's even possible with the information given in the movie)
16:49.25straydawgbut i still enjoy it :)
16:49.41Landonyeah
16:49.51LandonI've sort of got a grip on it
16:49.57straydawgare you sure :)
16:50.05LandonI wish I knew a bit more about the implications of time travel in the movie though
16:50.15Landonso I could be sure I'm on the right track
16:50.28Landonthinks the movie could use -funroll
16:50.30Landon:P
16:51.04straydawghaha ;-)
16:53.34Landongoes to watch a movie easier on the mind, bubble boy
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19:58.23kossshi all
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20:00.12Ori_Bhi
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20:02.33kosssh a u
20:02.48kosssare you ready to soc
20:03.03Ori_Bperhaps :)
20:03.51kossswhat kind of app you codes?
20:03.56kossswhat kind of app you code?
20:06.08kosssOri_B: how come the programming you doing?
20:06.15Ori_Beh, right now I'm working on OCR for a school assignement.
20:08.19kossswhat is OCR?
20:09.50Ori_Bkosss: optical character recognition
20:10.14Ori_Bas in, camera takes picture of text. picure gets processed into a string of chars.
20:10.36kosssgood app
20:10.51kosssthank for this
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20:11.25kosssare you create the software tool for recognition?
20:11.33kosssor hardware?
20:12.19Phenix_hello
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20:13.03nrpyay for gsoc 2009 discussions
20:13.40kosss)
20:13.51LandonOri_B: sounds neat, I'm taking a digital image processing course this semester )
20:14.09kosssOri_B do you use the wavelet for this task?
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20:14.18LandonI don't think itll go that far though :
20:14.25summatusmentishi all
20:14.29Landonhi summatusmentis
20:14.40summatusmentishowsit Landon?
20:16.45Landonin class
20:16.50Landondata structures, even
20:17.26Landongetting some good quotes :P "Well, Microsoft isn't really big .... on things like open source"
20:18.26kosssbravo
20:20.32summatusmentisI'm in class too, discrete math
20:20.35summatusmentis:-/
20:20.56Ori_BLandon: hah. unfortunately, I haven't taken it :)
20:21.01summatusmentiswait, how does "Microsoft isn't big on open source" relate to data structures?
20:21.26Ori_Bkosss: no wavelets. I don't have the time to figure that stuff out.
20:21.30Ori_BI've got one week to finish it
20:22.02Ori_B(4 weeks to do all the research, teach myself image processing and character recogntion algorithms, and implement it.)
20:25.05kosssOri_B are you capture one picture and recognition only one picture? not video recognition
20:25.24kossswhat format of picture?
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20:28.12Ori_Bkosss: raw bitmap in memory.
20:28.20Ori_Bsnagged directly from a CMOS camera.
20:29.10kosss) cool
20:29.49kosssbut how get the access to the camera cmos
20:30.05Ori_Bthere are drivers that are provided.
20:30.57kosssare you in linux?
20:31.44Ori_Byes.
20:33.11kosssI was program the picture filter on the DSP processor
20:33.56kosssi was use the mask (matrix 3*3)
20:35.23kosssis the size of simbols fix?
20:36.03Ori_Bnope.
20:36.06Ori_Bit's just a picture of text.
20:36.40Ori_Bthe rest is unknown.
20:38.20kossscool task
20:41.41kosssif i were you i would do some steps
20:42.05kossssteps 1 convert the picture to the black-and-white picture
20:43.52kosss(each pix compare with the critical value, if less then "white", otherwise "black")
20:44.00Ori_Byep
20:44.16Ori_Balthough I'm going to take the derivative of the image to find edges instead, if I have the time
20:44.20Ori_Bit's more accurate
20:46.40Ori_Bkosss: right now I'm working on actually detecting the letter type, and detecting the direction that the text is running in
20:47.49Ori_Bie, I should be able to detect the orientation to within 45 degrees.
20:50.01kossswow
20:50.26LandonOri_B: is this for a class?
20:50.32Landonor other
20:50.34Ori_BLandon: yes.
20:50.41Landonwhat class?
20:51.02Ori_BLandon: http://engphys.mcmaster.ca/undergraduate/outlines/4u04/4u04cs.htm
20:51.15Ori_BLandon: you get to chose your own project, more or less
20:51.18Ori_Band I clearly hate myself.
20:51.19kosssis "class" the study work?
20:51.28Ori_Bso I chose this project.
20:51.55Landonah cool
20:52.02LandonI would have gone with the RS232 thing myself :P
20:52.09Ori_BLandon: that's next :)
20:52.16Landonoh, in progressive order?
20:52.17Landonawesome !
20:52.27Ori_BLandon: 2 projects of your choice.
20:52.39Landonalmost as good! :P
20:52.44Ori_BLandon: I'm better prepared for these than most people; I'm minoring in compsci
20:52.51Ori_Bmost people in my program had... hm.
20:52.58Landonheh
20:53.03Ori_B1 course in 1st year on an intro to programming
20:53.15Ori_Band 1 course on numerical methods in matlab in 3rd year
20:54.31Landonyeah I know the feeling
20:55.18kossswho work with the generalised inverses of Grivelly?
20:55.33Landonalthough it seems that 99% of peoples inability to do something is 1) daunted by the task and B) those who can't do research
20:56.08Ori_BLandon: well, there's a great deal of emphasis here on doing your own research and teaching yourself what you need to get by
20:56.14Ori_Bit's so it's not too bad.
20:56.36Ori_Bit's just tough :)
20:57.08Landonwhoops
20:57.15Landon1) and 2), or A) and B)
20:57.21Landonpick your poison
20:57.39LandonI must say image procesisng is getting a little daunting
20:57.54Landonbecause it's nearing the level where a simple google search will start turning up research papres on the subject
20:57.54Landon>.<
20:59.38Ori_BLandon: oh, I'
20:59.47Ori_BI've mostly been working from research papers :)
20:59.50Ori_Bthey're nice and concise.
21:00.07Landonheh :P
21:00.12Landonworks best off of many examples
21:00.47Ori_Bieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4022243/4022244/04022789.pdf was quite helpful, for example
21:01.16LandonI suppose you're looking at more applications oriented topics than I am though
21:01.45Landonwhile it would be neat for me to know the applications of say, constructing a good contrast curve, I'd rather know the theory in a simple way
21:02.02Ori_Bmm.
21:04.42kosssOri_B this is the paper abolt mobile cam
21:05.59kosss(( require the rigistration for download the IEEE paper
21:14.09kosssOri_B: are you from canada)
21:14.12kossscool
21:15.15kossshockey is the grat
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21:21.58Ori_Bkosss: yes, Canadian
21:22.14Ori_Bkosss: mm, I'm on my university's connection.. no login required right now.
21:24.39kossswhat do uoy think about your university?
21:25.09kosssti is good technickal base for you?
21:30.09kosssi see the task about AM modulation, Why you dont choos this task
21:30.33Ori_Bkosss: only 2 choices.
21:30.39Ori_Bkosss: and it's definitely a good program :)
21:32.05kosss<PROTECTED>
21:33.21kosssis your university give the robot for the student's experimental
21:33.31kosssis->are
21:35.00Ori_Bhm?
21:35.15Ori_Bwell, the writing robot is actually kind of crappy.
21:36.48kosss)
21:37.20kosssit does not matter
21:37.58kosssi would like to study in your university
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21:49.21kosssOri_B i am from rus
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22:04.19Ori_Bkosss: cool
22:05.20kosssdid you work in WiFi task?
22:06.03kosssdid you create the antennas and cable
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22:07.12Ori_Bkosss: not this semester.
22:10.35kosssi whant to create the cable for my access point
22:11.16kosssbut do not find the sma connectors in the Tomsk city
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22:14.25kosssok Ori_B i am going to sleep
22:14.27kosssByby
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