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| 02:03.27 | literal | gah |
| 02:03.35 | literal | worst customer service ever |
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| 02:04.01 | literal | just ordered something with his card but accidentally ticked "shipping address is same as billing address" |
| 02:04.22 | Landon | heh |
| 02:04.38 | literal | emailed them 5 minutes later, get a reply 3 hours later saying "too late, it's already being processed" |
| 02:05.02 | literal | their online interface doesn't even allow order cancellation |
| 02:05.13 | literal | so apparently the stuff will be sent to Google |
| 02:05.29 | literal | what can I do about that? |
| 02:08.33 | literal | I'm pretty shocked about this actually, since this is a well-known merchant |
| 02:09.57 | literal | there's no way I'm spending $1000 on a plane ticket to Mountain View to get $140 worth of stuff... |
| 02:11.05 | summatusmentis | have you tried calling them? |
| 02:11.22 | literal | it's after business hours now, but I could do it tomorrow |
| 02:12.05 | summatusmentis | I would try calling them |
| 02:12.24 | summatusmentis | as annoying as it is, sometimes the whole "voice" thing actually works better |
| 02:12.34 | literal | hope so |
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| 02:29.02 | Ori_B | literal: hm, in the worst case, maybe you could email lh and ask if there's any way that google could re-ship whatever you bought to you? |
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| 02:53.40 | literal | Ori_B: I'll keep that in mind |
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| 03:28.47 | venkatesh | !next |
| 03:28.47 | socinfo | "next" is week of July 13: get paid!, firm pencils down and final evaluations begin August 17 |
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| 06:34.35 | Dday | Hey all! |
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| 06:43.58 | Dday | Does anyone know much about asp here? |
| 06:56.32 | r0bby | Dday: this isn't a support channel... |
| 06:56.47 | r0bby | there is a channel specifically for ASP on freenode /list *ASP* |
| 06:57.22 | r0bby | #asp for ASP itself; #asp.net for asp.net |
| 07:03.10 | thiago_home | even so, I doubt many people would know ASP in an open source channel |
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| 07:09.13 | kblin | right. IIS doesn't run in Wine for all I know |
| 07:09.19 | kblin | never tried, to be honest |
| 07:10.42 | thebolt | thiago_home: well, open source is not only for linux ;) I'm a long time open source user and developer, exclusively running windows :) |
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| 07:20.05 | thiago_home | thebolt: I never said Linux |
| 07:20.11 | thiago_home | but IIS isn't open source |
| 07:20.18 | thiago_home | Apache and PHP are |
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| 07:23.02 | thebolt | sure |
| 07:23.11 | thebolt | but there are open sourc easp applications |
| 07:23.27 | thiago_home | there are? |
| 07:23.31 | thebolt | i write 99% of my foss software using MSVC.. msvc isn't open source either |
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| 07:24.15 | thebolt | thiago_home: yes? quite a bit.. not as much as php maybe but still |
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| 15:58.37 | omniter | darn, the US dollar's diving fast... with no sign of coming back up =\ |
| 15:59.52 | omniter | now i'll get like 400 canadian dollars less than i would have. :( |
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| 16:03.21 | t0ms | omniter: http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.png ... |
| 16:04.00 | omniter | so... the euro's diving too? =\ |
| 16:04.40 | t0ms | omniter: no, 1 USD was worth 0.8, now it's like 0.6 |
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| 16:05.41 | omniter | t0ms, wow |
| 16:05.46 | omniter | yeah, it's terrible isn't it |
| 16:05.52 | omniter | is the US going into a depression or something |
| 16:06.20 | t0ms | omniter: in MAR I would get for 100 USD almost 80 EUR, now I get 66 EUR |
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| 16:06.34 | omniter | d: |
| 16:06.36 | omniter | D: |
| 16:06.38 | sioraiocht | no, the US isn't going into depression...anymore than the rest of the world |
| 16:06.55 | sioraiocht | also, currency value is not an indicator of that |
| 16:07.04 | omniter | oh okay |
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| 16:07.11 | sioraiocht | as 2 years ago it was 2USD to 1GBP |
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| 16:07.30 | sioraiocht | however, just after the banking crisis, people fled back to the dollar, including people that said the euro would hold strong |
| 16:07.40 | sioraiocht | and the value of the dollar relative to the international currency basket shot up |
| 16:07.45 | sioraiocht | it's re-levelling, though |
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| 16:10.05 | t0ms | sioraiocht: for me, it's hard to tell, my country switched from crowns (SKK) to EUR in January... so it's really difficult for me to recalculate value of USD / EUR / SKK before and now |
| 16:10.13 | omniter | 5265 CND is what i would've gotten on july 8th. now it's 4792. |
| 16:10.21 | sioraiocht | t0ms: you are in .se? |
| 16:10.26 | t0ms | sioraiocht: .sk |
| 16:10.32 | sioraiocht | t0ms: ah |
| 16:10.36 | t0ms | sioraiocht: what country is .se? :) |
| 16:10.45 | t0ms | sweden, aha :) |
| 16:10.46 | sioraiocht | sweden, which is also on something they called a crown |
| 16:10.50 | sioraiocht | *call |
| 16:11.05 | sioraiocht | I was going to be REALLY surprised if they had joined the Eurozone, though, heh |
| 16:11.26 | t0ms | sioraiocht: Czech rep. & Denmark & Sweden are using "crowns" IIRC |
| 16:11.37 | sioraiocht | so does norway and iceland |
| 16:12.03 | sioraiocht | Krone in Denmark and Norway (different currencies, same name) and Króna in Iceland =) |
| 16:12.23 | thebolt | and estonia (kroon) |
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| 16:15.47 | t0ms | and Czech republic - Koruna |
| 16:16.00 | thebolt | :) |
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| 17:05.45 | sanjiv | !logs |
| 17:05.45 | socinfo | "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc |
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| 17:54.53 | kblin | hi Gamara |
| 17:55.03 | Gamara | hey |
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| 17:56.20 | kblin | Gamara: is lh around these days? we've got a student MIA |
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| 17:59.40 | Ivanovic | kblin: she is on holidays atm |
| 18:00.06 | Ivanovic | that is on saturday i got an auto response to a mail saying so that she will be out of office that long |
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| 18:15.45 | kblin | Ivanovic: ah, any hint when she'll be back? |
| 18:16.05 | Ivanovic | i think it was ~tomorrow |
| 18:16.23 | kblin | ok, I'll just send her an email and wait, I guess |
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| 18:35.23 | kblin | goes to play with his new toy |
| 18:35.43 | Ryan52 | kblin: what is your new toy? |
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| 18:37.18 | kblin | one of these meters you can plug between the wall socket and the device to measure how many amps/watts a device uses |
| 18:37.39 | Landon | killawatt? |
| 18:37.41 | bobbens | but they require you to unplug it |
| 18:37.41 | Landon | or something fancier |
| 18:37.51 | bobbens | there's awesome meters that you just coil the cable around :) |
| 18:37.57 | bobbens | but they're like 800 euros for a decent one |
| 18:38.18 | Landon | has a killawatt, but reads that it's off a bit when testing devices with switched power supplies |
| 18:38.39 | kblin | well, mine was like 1% of that price.. it's not incredibly accurate, but I'm interested in the trend |
| 18:38.47 | Landon | you know, I'm in computer engineering... I should probably know why that is, but for the life of me I can't care :P |
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| 18:39.38 | kblin | yeah, pretty much the same thing. just with a europlug and made for 230V |
| 18:40.52 | Landon | goes to set up his bike computer |
| 18:40.56 | kblin | so I'm currently measuring my gaming PC with different games |
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| 18:43.56 | kblin | I knew it. ego shooters are bad for the environment :) |
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| 18:45.31 | thebolt | hi all |
| 18:49.20 | kblin | hey thebolt |
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| 19:14.06 | thebolt | hi mr blin, how do you do? |
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| 19:18.32 | kblin | thebolt: fine, having fun being totally shocked on how I misjudged the standby power usage of some of my home electronics |
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| 19:19.04 | Landon | was actually pleasantly surprised |
| 19:19.06 | thebolt | hehe |
| 19:19.08 | Landon | when I measured my stuff |
| 19:19.12 | Landon | I just leave it on now |
| 19:19.14 | Landon | not worth the bother to turn off |
| 19:19.22 | Landon | (on as in "off", not unplugged" |
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| 19:20.17 | kblin | Landon: dunno, it seems like one of my power supplies draws 20W in "off" mode, and 9W if I toggle the little switch to "off" |
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| 19:20.36 | Landon | what kind of electronics are we talking? heh |
| 19:20.42 | kblin | which, given that the box idles at ~80W, seems quite a bit |
| 19:20.45 | Ivanovic | kblin: sounds like that one does really suck and you need to replace it... |
| 19:20.55 | Ivanovic | ;) |
| 19:20.59 | Landon | the tv+console+other similar crap strip only pulls 11-15W "off" |
| 19:21.07 | Landon | oh, an actual computer |
| 19:21.23 | kblin | Ivanovic: it's a shuttle power supply, only shuttle builds the fitting form factor |
| 19:21.40 | Ivanovic | ugh |
| 19:21.43 | Ivanovic | this really sucks |
| 19:22.12 | kblin | yeah, that box is moving to a switchable power hub once I figured out what other electronics I don't usually need |
| 19:22.26 | kblin | my laser printer idles at around 6W, that's not too bad |
| 19:24.29 | kblin | my laptop backlight uses 4W more power when turned up compared to being turned all the way down |
| 19:24.43 | kblin | which sort of matches what powertop tells me, iirc |
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| 19:36.16 | kblin | wow |
| 19:36.27 | kblin | I _am_ impressed with my freezer, though |
| 19:36.32 | kblin | that was a good buy |
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| 19:37.15 | thebolt | hehe |
| 19:39.42 | kblin | I'm a bit miffed that my gaming pc needs about three time the power on standby compared to what the freezer needs on "on" |
| 19:40.17 | kblin | I need more ARM pcs |
| 19:40.29 | kblin | I can run a server farm for 20W :) |
| 19:42.12 | thebolt | :) |
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| 19:43.43 | lifeeth | kblin, replace your desktop with a beagle board |
| 19:44.02 | kblin | I'm waiting for a dual-CPU box that has an ARM (or really low power intel) main CPU and a quad-core auxilary cpu switched on per demand |
| 19:44.07 | kblin | lifeeth: yeah, right |
| 19:44.38 | lifeeth | kblin, You will have to wait for ever for such a machine |
| 19:44.45 | kblin | lifeeth: once I get one that can use USB ethernet and USB storage at the same time without croaking |
| 19:44.54 | lifeeth | :) |
| 19:45.33 | thebolt | kblin: i mostly use my netbook these days.. pretty low power consumption |
| 19:45.33 | kblin | a Rev C BB might do the trick, but they're backordered for 5-6 weeks, it seems |
| 19:45.45 | lifeeth | Yeah |
| 19:46.16 | kblin | the rev B is nice and cute, but won't work with a decent amount of storage |
| 19:46.32 | kblin | not if you also want networking, at least |
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| 19:47.37 | kblin | thebolt: but running a couple of VMs on a netbook is no fun, I bet |
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| 19:48.29 | lifeeth | kblin, I went as far as running ubuntu on rev b .. |
| 19:48.43 | kblin | lifeeth: yeah, doing the same |
| 19:49.32 | kblin | I miss the ip6tables modules, but because the omap kernel isn't officially supported, I can't do much to get it included |
| 19:49.35 | lifeeth | koen has a nice OE online builder |
| 19:50.26 | kblin | I don't think I can pick kernel modules there |
| 19:50.30 | lifeeth | Nope |
| 19:51.33 | kblin | I doubt any of the angstrom folks care much about my kind of setup |
| 19:51.53 | kblin | you usually don't need that sort of stuff in a PDA |
| 19:52.25 | thebolt | kblin: nah, true |
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| 19:53.12 | kblin | given that I can easily run 4 systems on my work pc, about 40W each isn't that much as well |
| 19:53.49 | kblin | Idling, I need to check it under load |
| 19:54.21 | kblin | my thinkpad goes from ~30 to ~50 W when building samba |
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| 19:56.11 | kblin | lifeeth: besides, the BB is pretty unuseable while you compile stuff |
| 19:56.34 | kblin | lifeeth: not to mention that it seems to take a couple of hours to compile e.g. samba |
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| 20:03.38 | lifeeth | kblin, I tried compiling the kernel on it :) |
| 20:03.48 | lifeeth | took it ~6 hours |
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| 20:20.56 | kblin | lifeeth: the real fun part is that there's an effort to make gentoo run on it :) |
| 20:21.03 | thebolt | haha |
| 20:21.25 | lifeeth | Oh yes -- I want to see people trying to compile openoffice on it :) |
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| 20:22.26 | kblin | can you even compile that beast on 128 megs of ram? I mean, without burning up an SD card for swap write ops? |
| 20:23.32 | lifeeth | Pandora and touchbook seem to be the only two devices that are based on the BB |
| 20:23.45 | lifeeth | touchbook seemed nice .. |
| 20:23.54 | makmanalp | BB? |
| 20:24.02 | lifeeth | Beagle Board |
| 20:24.14 | makmanalp | googles |
| 20:24.25 | kblin | beagleboard.org, iirc |
| 20:24.56 | makmanalp | oh man, this looks neat |
| 20:25.17 | lifeeth | makmanalp, you will get over it soon :) |
| 20:25.25 | makmanalp | looks like something else to spend gsoc money on |
| 20:25.30 | makmanalp | lifeeth: heh |
| 20:25.31 | thebolt | haha |
| 20:25.36 | kblin | there are rumours about a new rev coming up with 512 megs of ram and ethernet |
| 20:25.43 | bobbens | wait until omap4 |
| 20:25.43 | kblin | that might begin to get useable |
| 20:25.48 | bobbens | that's dual core :) |
| 20:25.50 | Landon | still has yet to spend gsoc money on electronics kit :( |
| 20:26.08 | kblin | wishes he had gsoc money to spend |
| 20:26.13 | lifeeth | Initially I planned to make a OMAP based board with the gsoc money + some savings |
| 20:26.15 | Landon | wishes he had more |
| 20:26.16 | makmanalp | this is a bit like gumstix |
| 20:26.22 | thebolt | wishes he had any money to spend |
| 20:26.22 | makmanalp | but it comes with graphics? |
| 20:26.29 | bobbens | omap3 has a gpu bulitin |
| 20:26.31 | thebolt | on the other hand.. just made a bet with my mother today |
| 20:26.34 | bobbens | gumstix overo are omap3 based |
| 20:26.39 | makmanalp | ah! |
| 20:26.40 | bobbens | the gumstix verdex are pxa270 based |
| 20:26.43 | thebolt | less stuff when i move out compare to when i (now) move in ;) |
| 20:26.53 | thebolt | (and i'll move out in 6 months or a year) |
| 20:26.55 | makmanalp | i never checked out the newer gumstix, last i looked was about 2 years ago |
| 20:27.07 | bobbens | newer gumstix has problems since it runs at like 1.8 volts |
| 20:27.11 | bobbens | and 1.8 volt PWM is no fun :) |
| 20:27.22 | bobbens | there hasn't been an expansion board to solve that yet |
| 20:27.25 | thebolt | bobbens: eh? no problem at all? |
| 20:27.39 | thebolt | why should 1.8V circuits be a problem? (other than for analog IC design, then they are a major PITA) |
| 20:27.56 | lifeeth | Anyone wants to pool up to send a satellite - http://interorbital.com/TubeSat_1.htm :) |
| 20:27.57 | bobbens | 1.8 volt isn't usable with standard sensors/servo/whatever |
| 20:28.05 | bobbens | you need at least 3.5 or so volts to be TTL compatible |
| 20:28.11 | bobbens | I forget |
| 20:28.17 | thebolt | bobbens: well, TTL is pretty dead for high speed circuits |
| 20:28.30 | thebolt | but there are level converters (or a few transistors and you can make one yourself) |
| 20:28.46 | bobbens | yes, but the joy of the traditional gumstix is how easy it is to just add stuff to id |
| 20:28.50 | bobbens | *it |
| 20:28.50 | bobbens | off the shelf |
| 20:29.01 | bobbens | the newer one you'll need an expansion board to change levels, which isn't done yet |
| 20:29.07 | thebolt | TTL usually requires 2.2V for a 1 |
| 20:29.27 | bobbens | I forget the exact specs, but I know you need more :) |
| 20:29.50 | makmanalp | i should really not get these |
| 20:30.04 | makmanalp | me and a friend are planning to make a reprap |
| 20:30.51 | thebolt | hm, 1.8 is a bit low even for LVTTL.. there are circuits with 1.8V LVTTL though :) |
| 20:30.52 | kblin | lifeeth: nah. too expensive for a few weeks of fun |
| 20:31.05 | thebolt | LVCMOS can do 1.8V directly |
| 20:31.22 | lifeeth | goes to sleep |
| 20:31.58 | bobbens | thebolt: I'd just prefer some sort of robostix expansion, communicate with i2c/spi/uart/whatever and let the atmega do the pwm and friends :) |
| 20:33.04 | thebolt | bobbens: ok :) |
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| 20:33.24 | thebolt | i'm more of an FPGA guy.. do it myself, possibly utilize a premade (or home-made:) softcore ;) |
| 20:33.26 | bobbens | the only reason I'd want an ARM would be for computer vision anyway |
| 20:33.50 | kblin | shrugs |
| 20:34.03 | bobbens | I haven't worked with FPGA, but for what I'm doing it would be pretty moot :) |
| 20:34.09 | bobbens | and they suck up a lot of power :P |
| 20:34.13 | kblin | I don't care. give me a posix platform, vim and a decent C compiler |
| 20:34.26 | bobbens | heh, posix platform |
| 20:34.27 | bobbens | you aim high |
| 20:34.36 | kblin | nah |
| 20:34.43 | kblin | posix is pretty brain dead.. |
| 20:35.03 | bobbens | I usually work with MCU with like 4 k of flash :) |
| 20:35.10 | bobbens | posix is a lot to ask there :) |
| 20:35.20 | bobbens | plus the _entire_ spec is pretty wild |
| 20:35.30 | bobbens | POSIX.4 is crazy |
| 20:35.54 | kblin | come on.. "oh, let's have user/group IDs that are likely to conflict on every system out there" |
| 20:36.18 | kblin | brilliant idea |
| 20:37.25 | bobbens | I think I should start using this ACM thingy |
| 20:37.29 | bobbens | haven't looked at it yet |
| 20:38.23 | thebolt | bobbens: well, FPGAs for me is usually a substitute for ASICs.. but for one-time thing an ASIC is a bit expensive ;) |
| 20:38.59 | thebolt | (ie a prototyping and/or learning tool as i don't have access to the real stuff ;) |
| 20:40.17 | kblin | bobbens: my ideal computer is a VM guest. no hardware to worry about, life is good |
| 20:40.21 | bobbens | yeah, I do robotics, I like stuff to be flexible, easy to change, etc... :) |
| 20:40.30 | bobbens | MCU are much cheaper |
| 20:40.34 | bobbens | kblin: you're too idealistic :) |
| 20:40.37 | bobbens | mixes with the silicon |
| 20:40.47 | kblin | is a software guy |
| 20:41.04 | thebolt | sure, but one of my areas of interest is computer architecture/organization |
| 20:41.08 | kblin | wetware, if I have to.. |
| 20:41.10 | thebolt | and then an MCU is a bit too "fixed" ;) |
| 20:41.20 | thebolt | but for some projects i use them as well |
| 20:42.00 | bobbens | well when you need to do velocity control for 4 independent motor, I think desiging your own ASIC for that is a bit far fetched :) |
| 20:42.12 | thebolt | haha, yes :) |
| 20:42.22 | bobbens | not to mention it would be a bitch to do properly |
| 20:42.26 | bobbens | h-bridges are nasty business |
| 20:42.50 | thebolt | currently starting a new project, a massive LED-controller for a friend.. still figuring out if it should be FPGA or MCU as the controlling unit |
| 20:43.05 | bobbens | I'm experimenting with clusters of MCU :) |
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| 20:43.15 | bobbens | atmega primary core with multiple attiny modules |
| 20:43.18 | thebolt | talking 4-16k LEDs.. individually intensity controlled |
| 20:43.23 | bobbens | still waiting on the chips |
| 20:43.37 | bobbens | you better not have to solder 16k LEDs by hand :P |
| 20:43.39 | thebolt | :) we did a robotics project for uni last spring.. 3 ATmegas cooperating |
| 20:43.58 | thebolt | bobbens: i'll do the prototype and layouts etc.. then he'll get the real stuff manufactured :P |
| 20:44.11 | bobbens | you have a big budget? |
| 20:44.14 | bobbens | I have to make my boards myself :) |
| 20:44.25 | bobbens | I can do double sided, but like 0.4mm is my limit |
| 20:44.37 | thebolt | (and i'll buy all physical construction like board making and soldering from my brother) |
| 20:44.47 | bobbens | man, you cheat then |
| 20:44.55 | bobbens | I have to do it all :) |
| 20:45.11 | thebolt | not sure about budget, couple of hundred euros or so for prototype i think |
| 20:45.13 | bobbens | I'd love to have a machine where you put the design in click a button and have a nice fresh pcb with all components soldered come out |
| 20:45.17 | bobbens | but that's too expensive |
| 20:45.24 | thebolt | haha, well, my brother doesn't have that, he does it manually :P |
| 20:45.30 | thebolt | but he is alot better than i am at it |
| 20:45.31 | bobbens | hell, just for like 4-5 pcb prototypes it's easily 100 euros |
| 20:45.41 | bobbens | (of the same board) |
| 20:46.27 | bobbens | and that's without soldering :) |
| 20:46.27 | thebolt | yea, i know |
| 20:46.28 | bobbens | and assumes you don't screw up :) |
| 20:46.40 | thebolt | hehe |
| 20:46.48 | kblin | that's why you outsource the risk :) |
| 20:47.02 | bobbens | well I can make my own board with soldering for like 15-20 euros each |
| 20:47.05 | bobbens | depending on components |
| 20:47.05 | thebolt | think i can get my brother to do stuff down to 0603 components or so |
| 20:47.19 | thebolt | then he begins to complain |
| 20:47.33 | bobbens | can he do QFN? :) |
| 20:47.36 | bobbens | if he can you are lucky |
| 20:47.43 | bobbens | I'd love to be able to do QFN :) |
| 20:47.49 | thebolt | don't think he tried |
| 20:47.50 | bobbens | there's many good MEMS and stuff that are QFN |
| 20:48.01 | thebolt | tqfp is no problem at least |
| 20:48.10 | bobbens | tqfp up to 64 is pretty easy |
| 20:48.15 | bobbens | tqfp100 and higher gets hard |
| 20:48.25 | thebolt | we've been experimenting with BGAs |
| 20:48.33 | bobbens | I stick to tqfp44 max to conserve sanity |
| 20:48.35 | thebolt | hand-soldering with hot-air |
| 20:48.43 | bobbens | of course if you get the board done professionally you can do more |
| 20:49.02 | thebolt | those are a bit tricky to get full soldering.. and even worse to verify if soldering is good or not :P |
| 20:49.02 | bobbens | problem with BGA though |
| 20:49.07 | bobbens | is that you start needing 4 layers |
| 20:49.18 | bobbens | and you can't do that easily anymore |
| 20:49.27 | thebolt | yep, |
| 20:49.30 | kblin | decides that thebolt and bobbens are actually practicing their mandarin and goes back to playing with his watt-meter |
| 20:49.31 | thebolt | well, not my yourself |
| 20:49.41 | thebolt | kblin: nah, i should have done that today |
| 20:49.50 | thebolt | but realized i already moved my mandarin books to my new place :( |
| 20:49.53 | thebolt | have to do it tomorrow |
| 20:50.01 | thebolt | forgot way too much, especially of the written :/ |
| 20:50.11 | bobbens | I used to learn japanese |
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| 20:50.14 | bobbens | that's gone to hell though :( |
| 20:50.17 | thebolt | heh |
| 20:50.18 | bobbens | free time is hard to come by |
| 20:50.42 | thebolt | my mandarin is very limited, but i did study some 100-130 hours something (lecture hours that is) while being in Taiwan |
| 20:50.54 | bobbens | I was in shanghai and abouts |
| 20:50.58 | bobbens | got around with kanji :P |
| 20:51.10 | thebolt | :) |
| 20:51.26 | thebolt | I visited japan for a short while |
| 20:51.47 | bobbens | I'd like to go study there someday |
| 20:51.47 | thebolt | understood some written stuff (when it was written in kanji) |
| 20:51.54 | bobbens | but it might be easier to stay in europe |
| 20:51.57 | bobbens | and try to get in the ESA :) |
| 20:52.01 | thebolt | haha |
| 20:52.11 | bobbens | that's my goal :) |
| 20:52.18 | bobbens | going to try to apply to an internship |
| 20:52.27 | thebolt | well, if i don't land a good job once i'm finished with my degree next year i'll probably go back to Taiwan for a year or two to learn proper mandarin |
| 20:52.45 | bobbens | I still have to do a phd, and probably a second degree |
| 20:52.48 | thebolt | hehe |
| 20:52.57 | bobbens | thinking aerospace engineering or telecommunication engineering |
| 20:53.04 | thebolt | what is your first one? |
| 20:53.08 | bobbens | industrial engineering :) |
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| 20:53.17 | bobbens | it's like the generic one |
| 20:53.17 | thebolt | ok :) |
| 20:53.20 | bobbens | you do _everything_ |
| 20:53.21 | thebolt | heh, yea |
| 20:53.33 | thebolt | my program is applied physics and electrical engineering |
| 20:53.51 | thebolt | i focus on the EE part (MSc btw). but i still have more maths and physics than most EE people |
| 20:54.09 | bobbens | well my degree is equivalent to bachelors + masters in american system |
| 20:54.16 | bobbens | EE is nice, but I'm more of a control engineer |
| 20:54.25 | bobbens | floats in Z-space |
| 20:54.34 | thebolt | :) |
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| 20:54.54 | bobbens | I'd like to learn more about EE too |
| 20:55.01 | thebolt | for example i have a pretty big course in control theory (which isn't included in "pure" ee;) |
| 20:55.05 | bobbens | although I can't complain, I have a lot of hard classes on that |
| 20:55.05 | thebolt | and yea, i'm also european |
| 20:55.16 | bobbens | well my specialization is "automation" which basically amounts to control |
| 20:55.23 | thebolt | yep |
| 20:55.29 | bobbens | taking 3 really hard control theory classes this semester |
| 20:55.31 | bobbens | will be awesome |
| 20:55.36 | bobbens | (they're the hardest 3 in my study plan) |
| 20:55.44 | thebolt | hehe :) |
| 20:55.50 | bobbens | non-linear algebra systems and stuff like that :) |
| 20:55.59 | thebolt | I had a few wicked-hard EE courses in Taiwan.. |
| 20:56.09 | bobbens | EE is pretty wicked in general :) |
| 20:56.11 | thebolt | Analog IC design was really tough |
| 20:56.16 | bobbens | control is more friendly when you understand it |
| 20:56.22 | bobbens | but it's hard to get into the control mindset |
| 20:56.24 | thebolt | designing high performance opamp-chips etc |
| 20:56.37 | bobbens | analogue electronics is insane |
| 20:56.42 | bobbens | I can't believe people used to work that way :) |
| 20:56.48 | bobbens | give me digital or give me death :P |
| 20:56.49 | thebolt | yea, well, my university (Linköping, Sweden) is pretty big in control, especially system identification |
| 20:57.17 | thebolt | our "main guy" (head of that group of 7 professors or so) is pretty well known, apparently :P |
| 20:57.33 | bobbens | I need to start reading more control paper |
| 20:57.39 | bobbens | problem is they're all soo interesting and evil :) |
| 20:58.07 | thebolt | (got IEEE control systems award 2007.. ) |
| 20:58.18 | bobbens | don't know him |
| 20:58.22 | bobbens | I'm just starting :) |
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| 20:58.23 | thebolt | and wrote the system identification toolbox for matlab |
| 20:58.38 | bobbens | I tend to avoid using matlab for control, it's too limited :) |
| 20:58.44 | thebolt | hehe |
| 20:58.52 | thebolt | in what sense? |
| 20:58.56 | bobbens | it's pretty impossible to stick to proper control theory |
| 20:59.02 | bobbens | and then matlab fails epically |
| 20:59.09 | bobbens | one of my projects was dual motor velocity control |
| 20:59.21 | bobbens | but I couldn't do dx/dt (encoder samples per time interval) |
| 20:59.27 | bobbens | because otherwise control freq would have been 10 Hz |
| 20:59.33 | bobbens | so I inverted and did dt/dx |
| 20:59.46 | bobbens | which destroys control theory, because the feedback and control loop frequencies aren't the same |
| 20:59.51 | bobbens | plus feedback is non-linear |
| 21:00.07 | bobbens | matlab simulation showed that with some system parameters system should have been awesomely stable |
| 21:00.12 | thebolt | ok :) |
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| 21:00.16 | bobbens | in the real world it was completely unstable |
| 21:00.23 | thebolt | well, computer models are not always that good ;) |
| 21:00.32 | bobbens | well if you follow strict control theory matlab is great |
| 21:00.35 | bobbens | but few times you do :) |
| 21:00.41 | bobbens | and it can't really model quantification |
| 21:00.46 | bobbens | nor other phenomena too well |
| 21:00.50 | bobbens | in discrete control |
| 21:00.53 | thebolt | like electronics and simulation (such as spice) |
| 21:00.56 | bobbens | the best way is to do hands on |
| 21:01.04 | bobbens | spice is much better from my experience :) |
| 21:01.13 | thebolt | you better know the expected answer (by hand calculation etc) before you simulate something complex |
| 21:01.28 | thebolt | otherwise chances are that spice gives you something pretty strange and you don't know it is strange :P |
| 21:01.33 | bobbens | problem with spice is it doesn't know the physical characteristics of the board too |
| 21:01.41 | bobbens | you could have too much capitance on a double sided board |
| 21:01.42 | bobbens | for example |
| 21:01.49 | bobbens | and that could screw up the signals |
| 21:01.53 | thebolt | you can feed that into spice |
| 21:02.01 | bobbens | or ground loops, or whatever |
| 21:02.04 | thebolt | parasitic extraction |
| 21:02.12 | bobbens | well my spice skills is pretty basic :) |
| 21:02.19 | thebolt | well, spice cannot do it ;) |
| 21:02.37 | bobbens | but I've found that if you stick to atmel 8 bit controllers |
| 21:02.40 | bobbens | the 20 MHz and lower |
| 21:02.45 | bobbens | you don't have to worry a bout the funky stuff |
| 21:02.54 | bobbens | that's why I'm worried about jumping to desiging ARM or AVR32 |
| 21:02.55 | thebolt | but there is tools that takes a spice model and a physical realization (booard or IC) and output a new spice file with the parasitic capacitances and resistances |
| 21:02.58 | thebolt | so you can simulate that |
| 21:03.10 | bobbens | didn't know that, funky |
| 21:03.22 | thebolt | yea.. board design for high frequency sucks.. i am too bad at it to trust myself to do it ;) |
| 21:03.46 | bobbens | me too, which is sad :) |
| 21:03.54 | thebolt | IC i've done designs (none tested in real hardware, only "post layout simulation") for digital up to 500MHz and analog 120MHz.. |
| 21:03.57 | bobbens | but I'm probably an order of magnitude worse then you :) |
| 21:04.30 | thebolt | but soon I have to make boards for at least 200MHz on-board.. got to get my bro to do those ;) (he is a MSc student in EE.. or "electrical and electronics design" to be specific) |
| 21:04.45 | bobbens | problem with desiging IC is that the only way you will actually test them is with FPGA |
| 21:05.03 | thebolt | nah, we had a course where they actually manufacture your chips for you :) |
| 21:05.25 | bobbens | wow, must be expensive :) |
| 21:05.28 | thebolt | problem is that it is scheduled to be manufacutred in September, and i left that school after spring semester |
| 21:05.34 | thebolt | (exchange year) |
| 21:05.38 | bobbens | ah |
| 21:05.47 | bobbens | I don't think I could design an IC :) |
| 21:05.51 | bobbens | too many details to take into account |
| 21:05.57 | thebolt | well, they bring together alot of different university layouts into a single wafer to offset the costs |
| 21:06.00 | bobbens | I have done some simple IC designs, but those were for class |
| 21:06.18 | bobbens | and my custom h-bridge design failed epically :) |
| 21:06.21 | bobbens | now I use h-bridge IC :) |
| 21:06.29 | thebolt | but yea, its still a couple of thousand USD or so per design.. but in Taiwan there is a special gov. institution that pays for it |
| 21:06.54 | thebolt | (you have similar in US with MOSIS.. think europe is a bit behind there) |
| 21:07.15 | thebolt | it helps to have the two biggest ASIC manufacturers (TSMC and UMC) just down the road from university |
| 21:07.23 | bobbens | heh :) |
| 21:07.32 | bobbens | I know a guy who is like a block away from the TI plant |
| 21:07.38 | bobbens | when he needs samples he just walks in :P |
| 21:07.42 | thebolt | :) |
| 21:08.10 | thebolt | (also did most analog design work in a lab called "TSMC Computer Lab".. donated to uni by TSMC;) |
| 21:08.18 | bobbens | TI has some transcievers I need to get samples of |
| 21:08.29 | bobbens | heh, I had a class in the "Schnieder Lab" |
| 21:08.33 | bobbens | which was of industrial automata |
| 21:08.36 | thebolt | :) |
| 21:08.53 | thebolt | has two Schnieder Automation PLCs laying in a box behind him.. brand new |
| 21:09.29 | bobbens | you should design an IC to substitute the xmega |
| 21:09.35 | bobbens | atmel is having a hell of a time releasing them |
| 21:09.40 | thebolt | hehe |
| 21:09.41 | Mkop | has a POS pentium 2 laptop in front of him that's trying to make work |
| 21:09.42 | bobbens | specs are to drool for |
| 21:09.49 | thebolt | :) |
| 21:09.52 | bobbens | I used to amaintain my pentium 2 |
| 21:09.54 | Mkop | that he's trying to make work* |
| 21:09.56 | bobbens | but I'm too old now |
| 21:10.03 | bobbens | I just strip them for parts and off they go to the dump :P |
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| 21:10.17 | bobbens | they suck up too much power for what they are :) |
| 21:11.03 | kblin | hehe |
| 21:11.10 | bobbens | thebolt: out of curiosity, what FPGA do you use? |
| 21:11.35 | thebolt | bobbens: Xilinx, Spartan 3 mostly, as that is what I personally can afford dev/evaluation board for |
| 21:11.50 | bobbens | you code in verilog? |
| 21:12.10 | thebolt | at uni in taiwan we also used Xilinx virtex 5s |
| 21:12.12 | thebolt | verilog and vhdl |
| 21:12.28 | thebolt | used to do vhdl, came to taiwan and had to learn verilog |
| 21:12.33 | thebolt | now i don't know which to use for new stuff :P |
| 21:12.50 | bobbens | well the thing I don't like about FPGA is the entire issue with IP cores and the likes |
| 21:12.56 | thebolt | issue? |
| 21:13.05 | bobbens | well everything is soo locked down and proprietary :) |
| 21:13.15 | thebolt | well, if you use proprietary IP-cores, sure |
| 21:13.17 | bobbens | you want ethernet? $$$ you want an MCU? $$$ |
| 21:13.18 | thebolt | but there is opencoures.org |
| 21:13.24 | thebolt | opencores.org * |
| 21:13.31 | bobbens | mm, interesting |
| 21:13.32 | thebolt | open source IP cores |
| 21:13.38 | thebolt | (GPL mostly) |
| 21:13.55 | bobbens | all sorts of stuff? |
| 21:13.57 | thebolt | yep |
| 21:14.04 | thebolt | not everything is that good |
| 21:14.10 | thebolt | but some is |
| 21:14.17 | thebolt | and some at least provide a decent starting point |
| 21:14.26 | bobbens | mmmm |
| 21:14.32 | bobbens | I really have to play with FPGA someday |
| 21:14.36 | bobbens | but first need to finish my robots |
| 21:14.36 | thebolt | but yea, I'd like a free ARM core.. or even just the ability to write one |
| 21:14.45 | thebolt | but dumb ARM Ltd and their license :P |
| 21:14.52 | bobbens | the thing that worries me about FPGA is that to just get stuff running it would be a PITA |
| 21:15.06 | bobbens | while with an MCU you just mess around with a few registers and it all works :P |
| 21:15.18 | thebolt | Yea :) |
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| 21:15.32 | thebolt | it is lower level, so takes more to do stuff |
| 21:15.39 | thebolt | more effort, more thinking etc |
| 21:15.41 | bobbens | and it's also tough to equal a good MCU with FPGA in power consumption |
| 21:16.10 | bobbens | MCU are also harder to work with then say kblin's posix :) |
| 21:16.56 | thebolt | Yep :) |
| 21:17.41 | thebolt | but posix sucks :P |
| 21:17.57 | bobbens | I like it, but I'm no master :) |
| 21:18.04 | thebolt | (might suck a bit less than some other APIs, but still) |
| 21:18.20 | bobbens | well when you have to work with windows api, you come running to posix with your arms open |
| 21:18.33 | thebolt | is a windows user and coder ;) |
| 21:18.40 | thebolt | but i don't love the win32 api, definitely not |
| 21:18.50 | bobbens | I can't stand it |
| 21:18.50 | thebolt | heck, windows API is nicer on kernel level at times than user level :P |
| 21:18.57 | bobbens | where are the workspaces!?!?! |
| 21:19.07 | bobbens | I'm purebred linux |
| 21:21.42 | kblin | thebolt: dunno, the win32 api sucks.. some of the ideas behind it are nice |
| 21:21.57 | kblin | posix is a really bad example for design by comittee |
| 21:22.15 | bobbens | you know what's an awesome API? The mac os x HID API |
| 21:22.23 | bobbens | they actually rewrote completely some version back |
| 21:22.26 | bobbens | because it was sooo awful |
| 21:22.30 | bobbens | I'm scarred for life |
| 21:23.32 | thebolt | i like what i've seen of BeOS API.. seems pretty sane (mostly;) |
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| 21:23.56 | thebolt | but in general any real OS api will suck after a while, if you keep compatibility |
| 21:24.37 | kblin | but whoever had the bright idea of an api that's like NTSTATUS SomeStupidFunctionInCamelCase(enum _SomeEnum type, void *lpResult); should be taken out and beat up. twice. |
| 21:25.23 | bobbens | I didn't like the way they used callbacks all the time to iterate over stuff in directx |
| 21:25.50 | kblin | there's like 12 values the enum for QuerySecurityInfo can take, and the void* will point to 12 completely different memory structures depending on the enum value |
| 21:26.27 | bobbens | but everyone loves void*! |
| 21:26.33 | bobbens | in fact you should use them for everything |
| 21:26.42 | Landon | I use them to fuel my TARDIS |
| 21:26.52 | kblin | and of course memory management is nice |
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| 21:27.46 | kblin | I mean.. HeapAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), 0, size); clearly beats the crap out of malloc(size); every time |
| 21:27.52 | Catfish_Man | obviously they should have been using transparent unions ;) |
| 21:28.21 | bobbens | Catfish_Man: transparent unions of void*! :) |
| 21:28.31 | Landon | unions of void* and marsbars! |
| 21:28.35 | kblin | Catfish_Man: no. that'd force you to recompile for new enum values |
| 21:28.35 | Landon | mmmmmmmm |
| 21:28.47 | Catfish_Man | kblin: also it wouldn't be portable, transparent unions are a gcc extension |
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| 21:29.10 | kblin | ah, didn't know that |
| 21:31.13 | Catfish_Man | although it looks like it's a pretty widely supported extension, given a quick look around google |
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| 21:34.17 | kblin | well, MS seems to use VerymuchlikeC compilers anyway |
| 21:35.08 | kblin | in any case, I'll be off for a bit, want to measure my beagleboard power consumption |
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| 21:36.45 | thebolt | :) and i should sleep |
| 21:36.58 | bobbens | me too |
| 21:37.05 | bobbens | stupid computer keeping me awake |
| 21:37.56 | thebolt | i was about to blame you guys :P |
| 21:38.04 | thebolt | (not the computer) |
| 21:38.53 | Landon | the computer is an enabler |
| 21:41.19 | thebolt | or disabler (of sleep;) |
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