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| 04:29.01 | eku | hi |
| 04:31.03 | blkperl | hi |
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| 06:59.39 | dholbach | good morning |
| 07:03.18 | blkperl | good evening |
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| 08:03.02 | qrng | Bonjour, monsieurs et mesdames. |
| 08:03.04 | qrng | stretches. |
| 08:04.07 | qrng | I've finished coding. Well, the only things left are thorough tests, integration with sandbox tests, patches for different compilers. |
| 08:04.28 | qrng | (dance) |
| 08:05.22 | blkperl | what then? after the tests? |
| 08:05.59 | qrng | Nothing. |
| 08:06.27 | qrng | Lackadaisical summer, I suppose. |
| 08:07.28 | qrng | imagines himself lazily canoeing in a breathtakingly beautiful river. |
| 08:08.14 | kai | so your project obviously was too easy :) |
| 08:08.20 | qrng | Nope. |
| 08:08.55 | qrng | Unless you consider quasi-random number generators to be easy, but I can assure you that for a layman they would be quite difficult. |
| 08:09.31 | qrng | Mathematical apparatus is rather exquisite. |
| 08:09.38 | kai | but it's not even mid-term yet, so obviously for you it was too easy ;) |
| 08:09.56 | qrng | Nope, I began in February. :-D |
| 08:10.08 | kai | ah, you cheated |
| 08:10.11 | kai | ;) |
| 08:10.19 | qrng | Not really. It was a part of my diploma work. |
| 08:10.48 | kai | you're allowed to work on a paid project for your thesis? |
| 08:10.54 | kai | wow |
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| 08:11.30 | kai | I had to get quite some paperwork done to get my gsoc work accepted for my b.sc. thesis |
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| 08:11.54 | qrng | Where are you from? |
| 08:13.01 | kai | germany, but I guess this is more of a per-university thing |
| 08:13.45 | qrng | Probably. |
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| 08:19.47 | thebolt | hi all |
| 08:20.18 | thebolt | kai: it is quite common here for people to get paid for their theiss work |
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| 08:35.51 | kai | thebolt: it's not science if there's money in it ;) |
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| 08:45.15 | thebolt | kai: well, i'm in engineering ;) |
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| 08:48.53 | bobbens | kai: scientists don't live off air... (yet, they'll probably end up inventing something to live off air) |
| 08:49.27 | thiago | zero-point energy modules |
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| 08:58.08 | qrng | Actually, Google stipend will be invested to science. |
| 08:58.23 | kai | bobbens: well, obviously you need research grants to feed you while doing the research |
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| 08:58.52 | qrng | I am going to go to Denmark this fall, so money will be very much needed and very useful. |
| 08:58.53 | kai | bobbens: or you just hang out in grad school and pick up all the free food |
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| 08:59.39 | qrng | Where's the free food? I'd probably improve my figure with that. :-D |
| 09:02.14 | ojwb | grad students develop a sixth sense for it from what I've seen |
| 09:03.29 | aghisla | like mark in phdcomics |
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| 09:05.50 | qrng | It's no surprise. |
| 09:05.54 | ojwb | or like real people I know... |
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| 09:06.33 | qrng | I don't really need any diets, either. My partner already complains that my bones stick at all uncomfortable angles. |
| 09:08.15 | kai | ojwb: phdcomics is pretty close to reality |
| 09:08.37 | kai | ojwb: my professor even wears the same kind of wool vests as the professor in the comic |
| 09:08.51 | ojwb | yes, it just seemed odd to cite a fictional example... |
| 09:09.05 | kai | true |
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| 10:08.38 | Waren | yo |
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| 10:18.38 | mlankhorst | is it just me or is google talk completely unreliable lately? |
| 10:21.56 | mlankhorst | every time i want to talk to someone the thing dies |
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| 10:36.09 | mkarnicki | mlankhorst: works for me |
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| 10:37.46 | mlankhorst | past few days its been having issues for me, didn't upgrade anything, both gtalk and the gmail chat applet then say someone is online, but when i try to send something to them they say its offline, almost like parts of gtalk arent available |
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| 10:44.47 | drt24 | How do I update http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuprologjava/ ? Who do I contact to get the relvant permissions? (There is now a maintainer and that needs to be noted on the page and when we have the savanah project working then we will need to change the link to poin to that). |
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| 11:06.10 | drt24 | failchannel. sorry. |
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| 11:40.53 | carldani | hi |
| 11:41.04 | carldani | Did anyone get a tracking number for the payment cards? |
| 11:41.17 | carldani | From the traffic on the list, it seems not. |
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| 11:47.37 | carldani | Without a tracking number, it is probably safe to assume the packages have not been sent yet... |
| 11:52.33 | peper | carldani: i guess that carol is going to give us an update once she wakes up and reaches google :) |
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| 12:00.03 | carldani | peper: And if the competence of the payment card vendor is any indication, we'll get a nice announcement about yet another round of delays. |
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| 13:34.09 | *** topic/#gsoc is Google Summer of Code 2010 is On! - Coding has started! http://bit.ly/96UQZe - File Feature Requests & Bugs at http://bit.ly/a5tD87 - Read the FAQs: http://bit.ly/9q41Ey - Consider Hosting a GSoC Info Session: http://bit.ly/amIwdd |
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| 14:09.44 | sanjoyd | does not want to sound shallow, but he is getting a bit anxious about the packages now. |
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| 14:12.43 | JSund | might be worth waiting a couple of hours until people have had time to get to work on the west coast |
| 14:13.31 | vivia | it's, what, 7am on the west coast? they might still be asleep |
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| 14:14.38 | vivia | and I vaguely remember carols saying she was sending some packages last week already. or preparing them? |
| 14:15.16 | valeuf | sanjoyd: where do you live ? |
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| 14:29.34 | rohitr | thinks sanjoyd is not shallow. It should be perfectly okay to ask about the package, except when you do, 10 people would immediately tell you that you should have patience. |
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| 14:33.32 | valeuf | rohitr: well, Carols did not say it will arrive on June 7th, but from June 7th, so it can tomorrow or Wednesday, you can wait one or two days more to be sure |
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| 14:35.04 | JSund | but we've been told that we should get shipping information when they are shipped and iirc shipping should have started five days ago |
| 14:35.42 | rohitr | valeuf: Of course I am waiting. And I think Carol did say that the packages will arrive by 7th. :-). I understand that things can get out of hand and I am sure she would be doing all she can to make this good. I just think that it should be ok for people to ask about packages without feeling guilty. Don't you? |
| 14:36.05 | ojwb | but nobody here can help... |
| 14:36.26 | ojwb | except to tell you to be patient, and pointing out that we don't know more than you do |
| 14:36.26 | valeuf | well you can ask, but I would feel guilty, personal feeling probably |
| 14:36.26 | JSund | it's not really a problem for me and I trust that I will receive the package eventually, but some people might need the money to cover living expenses during the GSoC period |
| 14:36.48 | svaksha | iirc, she said shipped out by 7th?.... but then /me isnt really sure. it will come when it comes |
| 14:37.02 | JSund | hopefully we'll get some news during the day |
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| 14:41.22 | rohitr | I think your package will be there by June 7, but as soon as I promise you all that I will get ~400 emails when it hasn't arrived on June 7. So I say "about." :-) |
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| 14:50.16 | carldani | Well, considering that she indicated we'd get tracking numbers once the cards are shipped, I expect the cards not to turn up at my location anytime soon. |
| 14:51.44 | carldani | I should probably ask Carol to change my shipping address now that my old address won't be active anymore starting next week. Oh well. |
| 14:52.05 | carldani | Fun. |
| 14:52.26 | vivia | carldani: can't you set up snail mail forwarding? here you can |
| 14:52.53 | vivia | it's valid for 6 months, they actually deliver your mail from the old address on the new one ---- Hmmmmmmmmm, I'm not sure FedEx will ask the normal post office about this though |
| 14:53.14 | carldani | vivia: I could, but it costs money, and FedEx won't care anyway. |
| 14:53.53 | carldani | vivia: And without physical mail forwarding I'll get a lot less spam ;-) |
| 14:54.15 | vivia | oh, I don't receive much spam in my physical mailbox :) |
| 14:54.42 | vivia | I had some weekly magazines by that engineers' association, but I opted in the email version :) |
| 14:54.53 | smtms | carldani, you are moving to another city? |
| 14:55.05 | carldani | smtms: another country... |
| 14:55.12 | vivia | ouch!! :( |
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| 14:55.57 | vivia | I suggest you email carols (off-list)... |
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| 15:09.21 | valeuf | carldani: no friend staying near your old place to catch the package instead of you ? |
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| 15:11.34 | vivia | valeuf: and then post it back to another country? |
| 15:12.05 | valeuf | well if Carols already sent the package .... I do not see many other solutions ! |
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| 15:13.42 | vivia | if she had sent it, he'd had received his tracking number maybe |
| 15:14.05 | mkarnicki | carldani: some guy said he received the parcel before the e-mail with tracking number last year |
| 15:14.24 | Manca | vivia: I believe she didn't send packages. We would've received tracking numbers. But this week we should expect them being sent. |
| 15:14.54 | vivia | I don't remember receiving a tracking number at all last year. Then again, it might have ended up in my spambox |
| 15:15.31 | Manca | vivia: Carol would've at least told us the packages being sent. |
| 15:15.46 | vivia | Manca: I think she mentioned sending some packages last week |
| 15:15.47 | mkarnicki | Manca: she said they would send them 3-4 days ago |
| 15:15.54 | mkarnicki | vivia: +1 |
| 15:16.20 | Manca | vivia: i don't remember that... but hey, that's even better ;) |
| 15:16.37 | vivia | I just hope FedEx is just slow at sending out tracking numbers... *fingers crossed* |
| 15:16.47 | mkarnicki | Manca: I think it was mentioned on the IRC, so you might have missed it |
| 15:16.54 | vivia | mkarnicki: +1 |
| 15:16.55 | mkarnicki | vivia: same here :) |
| 15:16.57 | mkarnicki | hahaha |
| 15:17.01 | vivia | gmta :) |
| 15:17.04 | Manca | mkarnicki: then I probably missed it.. thanks for the update! |
| 15:17.45 | mkarnicki | Manca: anyway, I hope they did send them, I'm just forwarding what I have read here :) np |
| 15:18.01 | Manca | sure :) I hope so too |
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| 15:24.25 | eku | has anyone got their tracking number yet ? |
| 15:25.13 | dennda | no :( |
| 15:25.23 | dennda | no payment card either |
| 15:25.53 | eku | yea me neither :( |
| 15:26.40 | eku | n no update from carol also :( |
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| 16:41.41 | umashanthi | carols: hi, what about the tracking numbers of the shipment? |
| 16:42.01 | carols | umashanthi: as i said in my original email, you will get one as soon as yours ships. |
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| 16:42.24 | umashanthi | carols: thanks for the information |
| 16:42.32 | carols | umashanthi: yw :-) |
| 16:43.56 | vjsamuel | carols: is there any chance of the packages shipped to places in india before this saturday? (just out of curiosity) |
| 16:45.45 | carols | vjsamuel: before this coming saturday? |
| 16:45.53 | vjsamuel | carols: yes. |
| 16:46.12 | carols | vjsamuel: yes, a very good chance. i hope they're all done shipping by then. but, of course, as soon as I promise that I will get more emails from students later |
| 16:48.17 | peper | btw. who is sending the emails with tracking numbers? And/or what subject is used? I got emails like that spamfiltered before |
| 16:48.19 | vjsamuel | carols: keeping my fingers crossed because i leave for college on saturday and i have to pay my fees on monday. :( so i get the card on or before saturday i can take it with me to my college. |
| 16:48.36 | carols | vjsamuel: i will cross my fingers with you |
| 16:48.39 | carols | crosses fingers |
| 16:48.56 | vjsamuel | crosses fingers too. |
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| 16:50.02 | peper | carols: any idea? |
| 16:50.08 | carols | peper: about what? |
| 16:50.14 | Jeff_S | just in general? |
| 16:50.14 | peper | btw. who is sending the emails with tracking numbers? And/or what subject is used? I got emails like that spamfiltered before |
| 16:51.02 | carols | peper: our shipping and receiving department. it will have a subject something like "fedex shipment (tracking number)..." |
| 16:51.25 | peper | carols: thanks for info |
| 16:51.33 | carols | peper: yw |
| 16:51.39 | carols | serves some tea and cookies |
| 16:52.17 | gento_ | hi carols |
| 16:52.23 | carols | hi gento_ |
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| 16:53.00 | gento_ | is that any statistic for gsoc this year? i read the google open source blog, but it not cover all the countries |
| 16:53.22 | gento_ | any statistic more detail? |
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| 16:54.50 | carols | gento_: i'm working on a new blog post with more statistics in it, but I was at a conference all last week so haven't had a chance to look at it. I've also been focused on getting welcome packages out so my time has all been going to that and not to blog posts. im sure you understand. |
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| 16:55.13 | h4xordood | heya :) |
| 16:55.19 | firc | oo! nice to get some updates. Thanks carols |
| 16:55.27 | carols | firc: yw |
| 16:56.01 | gento_ | carols: ya. thank you for your effort |
| 16:56.19 | h4xordood | hey i sumbitted my docs to carol she replied that she recieved those docs |
| 16:56.35 | h4xordood | but i have confusion that they are accepted or not :/ |
| 16:56.36 | carols | gento_: thanks. hope you're having a good GSoC :-) |
| 16:56.39 | gento_ | carols: just i wish to know any others from my country, Malaysia |
| 16:57.20 | carols | h4xordood: i said, "got it. thanks!", yes? |
| 16:57.26 | gento_ | carols: btw look forward the detailed statistic |
| 16:57.27 | h4xordood | yes |
| 16:57.33 | h4xordood | ah its u :) |
| 16:57.42 | h4xordood | carol: hi ^^ |
| 16:57.46 | carols | h4xordood: then you are fine for now. ill let you know if there's anything further you need to do, but you can assume you're ok |
| 16:58.01 | carols | gento_: i know a lot of students are :-) i'm working on it |
| 16:58.05 | carols | h4xordood: hi :-) |
| 16:58.11 | carols | serves more tea and cookies |
| 16:58.13 | YuviPanda | waves at carols, and buys her a large glass of cold chocolate with vanilla icecream |
| 16:58.18 | h4xordood | carols: thnx for confirmation |
| 16:58.24 | carols | YuviPanda: thanks! |
| 16:58.39 | carols | drinks the yummy foodstuffs |
| 16:58.41 | carols | h4xordood: yw |
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| 16:58.45 | h4xordood | ill get milk with hersheys chocolate :P |
| 16:58.46 | thebolt | hi carols et.al |
| 16:59.00 | carols | hi thebolt |
| 17:00.58 | mohi2911 | needs some cold coffee from carols |
| 17:01.04 | h4xordood | well best of luck to all gsoc students :) |
| 17:01.09 | carols | serves some iced coffee |
| 17:01.17 | carols | takes some iced coffee for herself |
| 17:01.19 | carols | busy day :-) |
| 17:01.29 | mohi2911 | eh |
| 17:01.31 | jdk2588 | gulps the coffee |
| 17:02.07 | mohi2911 | steals the pot from carols and runs away |
| 17:02.15 | h4xordood | yesterday i went to rockmans island here in new delhi had dark beer. it had taste like coffee in it :P |
| 17:02.20 | carols | aw, no stealing. there's enough for everyone :-) |
| 17:02.25 | carols | serves more iced coffee |
| 17:03.06 | mohi2911 | =] |
| 17:04.04 | mohi2911 | h4xordood, try some wine and its cheap here in the south :) |
| 17:04.26 | h4xordood | mohi2911: from new delhi ? |
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| 17:04.45 | mohi2911 | h4xordood, nope. from Tamil Nadu |
| 17:04.52 | h4xordood | ah :) |
| 17:05.00 | mohi2911 | South I said :D |
| 17:05.04 | mohi2911 | brb |
| 17:05.10 | h4xordood | i thought south delhi :D |
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| 17:16.31 | kimelto | morning! |
| 17:16.49 | merwok | prevening! |
| 17:17.06 | merwok | serves some tea to carols |
| 17:17.15 | carols | aw thanks merwok :-) |
| 17:17.17 | carols | sips tea |
| 17:17.42 | merwok | itâs English blend |
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| 17:18.59 | carols | yummy |
| 17:19.01 | carols | thanks :-) |
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| 17:20.30 | carols | hops on the open source couch and sips tea and responds to emails |
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| 17:20.44 | Catfish_Man | submits patches to the couch |
| 17:21.09 | merwok | carols, that must be easy, since itâs always the same emails. |
| 17:22.11 | carols | merwok: somewhat :-) there's always some new and interesting requests in there. keeps it interesting. especially when i talk to our payment card vendor :-) |
| 17:24.05 | merwok | I liked the thread âfeeling nervousâ. Rang a bell :) |
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| 17:34.52 | vivia | carols: good job with the cards!! thanks on everyones behalf :) |
| 17:35.07 | carols | vivia: thank you very much. i am very sorry they were delayed. |
| 17:35.09 | mlankhorst | mm |
| 17:35.11 | smtms | vivia, don't speak for me please |
| 17:35.18 | mlankhorst | its so bad for me but fuck it, time for coffee |
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| 17:35.44 | h4xordood | carols: when can we excepect cards to reach India ? |
| 17:36.03 | vivia | smtms: they did all they could, she even said they worked overnight |
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| 17:37.01 | carols | h4xordood: it really depends. they're shipping international priority but it still depends on Fedex's service to the particular area you're in |
| 17:37.01 | smtms | they didn't do the thinking part |
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| 17:38.15 | vivia | smtms: i need the money too but at least i can tell when someone else's delays are influencing you |
| 17:38.18 | h4xordood | i am in capital new delhi :) |
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| 17:39.47 | smtms | vivia, so, you say they didn't pick the payment card vendor? |
| 17:40.35 | thebolt | smtms: well, its hard to find something which works for everyone (including the people who have to handle it for thousand others..) |
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| 17:41.03 | vivia | smtms: the payment cards vendor issue was discussed last year wrt high fees |
| 17:41.12 | vivia | it was indeed the best they could do |
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| 17:44.13 | lolfrenz | carols must have superhuman abilities to cope with so many people whining and with such a raged mailing-list |
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| 17:59.29 | carols | serves more tea and cookies |
| 18:01.02 | h4xordood | steals cookies |
| 18:01.05 | h4xordood | :D |
| 18:03.29 | h4xordood | okay h4xordood puts back those cookies :) |
| 18:05.16 | YuviPanda | carols: whoever's idea was it of giving ACM membership to GSoC students - give them a huge thankyou from me :) |
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| 18:05.49 | carols | YuviPanda: i will do that. :-) |
| 18:05.57 | h4xordood | carol: add thnx from my side also |
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| 18:06.18 | h4xordood | cause i am at acm right now :) |
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| 18:07.28 | vivia | i think i'm so lucky... |
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| 18:08.04 | vivia | zero tuition fees, free food, free wifi, free msdnaa, free access to publications (so i didn't need acm)... |
| 18:08.15 | vivia | ah and free books for all courses |
| 18:08.35 | h4xordood | free food o_O? |
| 18:08.44 | vivia | two meals per working day |
| 18:08.47 | rohitr | wow, vivia, you are living the dream ;) |
| 18:08.55 | h4xordood | do they serve pizza with extra cheese ?:) |
| 18:08.57 | rohitr | vivia: how? |
| 18:09.00 | vivia | sometimes the food is shitty, but they're feeding so many people for free |
| 18:09.20 | vivia | rohitr: in the ... how's it called.... univ restaurant? |
| 18:09.43 | h4xordood | canteen |
| 18:09.46 | h4xordood | i guess |
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| 18:09.54 | Catfish_Man | cafeteria? |
| 18:09.55 | rohitr | vivia: I am signed up for one too. But I have to pay |
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| 18:10.09 | rohitr | Mess. or Mensa in German? |
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| 18:11.25 | rohitr | vivia: your country gives you free food. Which country is that? I gotta chalk up some immigration papers :) |
| 18:11.54 | vivia | mensa in german, right |
| 18:12.02 | vivia | rohitr: guess which... greece |
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| 18:12.27 | vivia | i'm not saying our education system is the best ever (tm) but i won't send my kids abroad :p |
| 18:13.33 | Mek | no wonder greece is in financial trouble :P |
| 18:13.55 | vivia | Mek: expenses for education are way below EU average IIRC |
| 18:14.03 | vivia | maybe even a fraction of it |
| 18:14.36 | vivia | i still wonder how this can possibly happen |
| 18:14.38 | rohitr | lol yeah. We are supposed to be a socialist , poor country and I pay more than a German for my education in a fully government funded institution. :( |
| 18:14.52 | vivia | rohitr: where do you live? |
| 18:15.13 | rohitr | vivia: India. |
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| 18:15.45 | baer | rohitr: how much do you pay? |
| 18:15.46 | vivia | you do a good job though. i see many talented developers and researchers from india |
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| 18:16.59 | rohitr | baer: around 900 euros a year, excluding food and boarding. |
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| 18:19.08 | rohitr | vivia: pfft, lets not talk about the Indian education system. The state of affairs is sad. |
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| 18:19.40 | baer | rohitr: wow, quite a number |
| 18:20.00 | baer | rohitr: i mean, i pay about the same per year but considering the average income... |
| 18:21.21 | YuviPanda | rohitr: so i'm not the only one who flies into a ballmer type rage when the Indian Education system topic comes up.... |
| 18:21.35 | vivia | afk |
| 18:21.42 | rohitr | YuviPanda: No definitely not man. |
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| 18:22.32 | rohitr | Indian Government applies market capitalism to education but not to power or agriculture or cricket for that matter. |
| 18:23.25 | rohitr | shortsighted and dumb, IMO |
| 18:24.38 | schumaml | is it as bad as the german system, where students are divided into an academic, worker and unemployed caste right after they've finished elementary school? |
| 18:25.39 | rohitr | schumaml: oh yeah I just heard about your system. But dont they spend more money per student on people from realschule and haptschule? |
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| 18:42.48 | schumaml | I can't find any stats about this |
| 18:43.08 | schumaml | they're probably hidden inside https://www-genesis.destatis.de |
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| 18:43.34 | Waren | re |
| 18:49.13 | rohitr | schumaml: I was quoting from the wiki article on hauptschule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptschule. It has a citation for this fact, but its in German. |
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| 19:10.35 | kblin | rohitr: well, probably because the kids from hauptschule go straight into the unemployed pool |
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| 19:11.41 | mlankhorst | ddddon. :( |
| 19:11.42 | mlankhorst | 13:14 < vivia> rohitr: where do you live? |
| 19:11.54 | mlankhorst | err, didnt mean to paste that |
| 19:12.31 | baer | kblin: thats probably only based on prejudices - but i share them ;) |
| 19:13.28 | kblin | baer: ok, I know a couple of exceptions, but I think they're rare |
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| 19:13.37 | rohitr | kblin: I didn't understand the logic of that in Germany. I mean in a country like India with limited resources, such a system makes just a little sense. But in Germany there is no excuse for this segregation at age (10?). |
| 19:14.01 | kblin | rohitr: it's very traditional |
| 19:14.02 | kblin | ;) |
| 19:14.28 | kblin | in fact, I'm not sure how to fix that |
| 19:15.06 | rohitr | kblin : Its akin to the spartans killing the weak kids. :) |
| 19:15.12 | vivia | and i wondered who pinged me -_-' |
| 19:15.16 | bkgood | kblin: Hauptschool looks like it'd be considered comprehensive and university-preparatory in the US |
| 19:15.17 | vivia | afk |
| 19:15.25 | bkgood | from the subjects listed on wp |
| 19:15.27 | thebolt | hi kblin |
| 19:15.40 | schumaml | we could go all-in and establish a real caste system like in Brave New World |
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| 19:16.07 | kblin | schumaml: we don't have that already? |
| 19:16.09 | baer | i actually profited from the early separation |
| 19:16.31 | kblin | I know that I was bored in elementary school, because it was too easy. but for some of my classmates had trouble with the pace |
| 19:16.47 | kblin | s/for// |
| 19:16.59 | kblin | bkgood: let me read the article |
| 19:17.01 | rohitr | excuse me. You guys have no clue what exactly a 'real' caste system entails. :) |
| 19:17.41 | bkgood | kblin: I just skimmed it, trying to compare it to the Flemish ASO/TSO/KSO/BSO system I know more of |
| 19:17.42 | schumaml | rohitr: you#re familiar with Brave New World by Huxley, I assume? |
| 19:18.18 | rohitr | schumaml: vaguely. |
| 19:19.44 | kblin | bkgood: hm, I don't think that list of subjects is entirely accurate |
| 19:20.20 | kblin | bkgood: education is federated at state level, so it's different from state to state |
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| 19:21.02 | rohitr | bkgood: anything would be considered university-preparatory level in the US ;) |
| 19:21.11 | kblin | hehe |
| 19:22.24 | kblin | also, I disagree with the criticism of places offering apprenticeships turning their focus on realschule graduates because they're better |
| 19:23.09 | bkgood | rohitr: meh somewhat, in high school one's often given choices of courses to take and the student is told "these courses are recommended if you're looking to higher education" |
| 19:23.11 | schumaml | rohitr: in Brave New World, almost all humans are clones, and are artificially adapted to their future use, e.g. by altering the development of the embryos |
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| 19:23.51 | kblin | if you have to teach your apprentices how to write and do basic maths, you spend more money than you can afford |
| 19:23.56 | bkgood | but if you don't take those courses in high school and you go to uni anyway you just have to take those courses then |
| 19:24.21 | rohitr | kblin: I am not really sure about the difference between real and haupstschule? Why have 3 schools? Why not 2? One for the vocational schools and one for the university system? |
| 19:24.36 | bkgood | kblin: hauptschulen don't teach writing and basic math? :/ |
| 19:24.41 | baer | well actually there are 4 types |
| 19:24.45 | schumaml | there are three schools because: |
| 19:24.49 | baer | hauptschule, realschule, gesamtschule and gymnasium |
| 19:24.52 | schumaml | 1. the Gymnasium is sacred |
| 19:25.20 | schumaml | 2. nobody wants to go to the Hauptschule, but some simply do not qualify for Gymnasium |
| 19:25.22 | rohitr | baer: gesamtschule? |
| 19:25.28 | schumaml | 3. so there has to be the Realschule |
| 19:25.54 | baer | rohitr: everybody can go ;) |
| 19:25.55 | kblin | rohitr: that's certainly the trend |
| 19:26.07 | kblin | baer: no such thing in this state :) |
| 19:26.21 | baer | which one? |
| 19:26.27 | kblin | unless private schools like Waldorfschule count |
| 19:26.30 | bkgood | I'd surmise that at age ~10 it's more the parents wanting the child to go a certain route than the child itself |
| 19:26.37 | kblin | baer: BW |
| 19:27.01 | schumaml | bkgood: oh, don#t underestimate them |
| 19:27.18 | baer | kblin: hehe |
| 19:27.26 | baer | probably because cdu tries to send everybody to hauptschule ;) |
| 19:27.30 | kblin | bkgood: yes. I live in a university city, where most of the kids are from an academic background. I'd say about 90% of them go to the highest level school |
| 19:27.41 | schumaml | I had a very clear idea that I want to go to a Gymnasium |
| 19:28.06 | kblin | yeah, I was bored to hell in elementary, I was looking forward to the challenge |
| 19:28.42 | kblin | though I had to wait for university to really get one. gymnasium was doable by fine-tuning the lazyness :) |
| 19:28.51 | baer | hehe |
| 19:28.54 | bkgood | I always knew I wanted to attend university but I didn't know why, or what I wanted to study. That's hardly a way to make a decision |
| 19:28.55 | rohitr | In India this would be considered preposterous. Nobody would send their kid to a real or a hauptschule here. There would be a revolt for sure, if they introduced something like this. I wonder how the German taxpayer still supports this. |
| 19:29.06 | baer | once you're in its very hard to get kicked out of gymnasium ;) |
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| 19:30.10 | FailPanda | rohitr: i wouldn't be so sure |
| 19:30.14 | schumaml | rohitr: the important taxpayers send their children to the Gymnasium, and they don't want the plebs to be there :) |
| 19:30.21 | FailPanda | rohitr: CBSE/State Board/Anglo Indian/Corporation |
| 19:30.45 | bkgood | anyway I know certainly here in america there'd be intense pressure from parents upon their children to go to the gymnasium-equivilent and we'd have 10-year-olds committing suicide, and that's why we can't have nice things :) |
| 19:30.50 | FailPanda | rohitr: while not exactly parallels, atleast parallel in 'spirit' |
| 19:31.00 | rohitr | FailPanda: The quality of schools is not under discussion here. |
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| 19:31.23 | rohitr | We dont segregate kids based on their 'intelligence' at age 10 :O |
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| 19:32.19 | rohitr | schumaml: The proletariat then has to rise and overthrow the bourgeoisie :-) |
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| 19:32.33 | schumaml | well , some claim that it isn't intelligence in Germany either, but social standing |
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| 19:33.16 | schumaml | rohitr: careful, you're talking to a member of this bourgeoisie |
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| 19:34.06 | FailPanda | rohitr: social standing here too determines which school you go to |
| 19:34.09 | schumaml | the proletariat is entertained by crappy tv |
| 19:34.11 | baer | bkgood: i can't remember anyone getting pressure from their parents |
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| 19:35.07 | rohitr | schumaml: and you are talking to an anti-marxist, extreme believer in laissez faire, nationalist. But for the health of a nation, the kids must be looked after well. |
| 19:35.59 | rohitr | FailPanda: True. That is an unfortunate consequence of government under investment and Indian poverty. But at least we have the idea right. Hopefully we will implement it better, soon. |
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| 19:36.39 | FailPanda | rohitr: i ain't holding my breath |
| 19:38.05 | schumaml | there are attempts to solve this, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werkrealschule |
| 19:38.32 | rohitr | FailPanda: Dude, things are changing. You can see it. Don't you see people moving up in life? Don't you see that things are better than they were 10 years ago? |
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| 19:40.16 | baer | biggest problem in the german system is IMO that teachers are civil servants like judges and you can't fire them |
| 19:40.55 | schumaml | and from a job interviewer's (seen that, done that) point of view, in most cases it simply doesn't matter which school someone graduated from |
| 19:41.19 | rohitr | Which countries' education system would you consider the best? |
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| 19:42.47 | YuviPanda | rohitr: a *very* difficult question, since most people have experience with mostly one country's. |
| 19:42.51 | YuviPanda | rohitr: or perhaps 2 |
| 19:44.18 | baer | based on the teaching style, i'd say the german system is better than the french ;) |
| 19:45.28 | kblin | baer: same goes for the university system |
| 19:45.36 | kblin | that's completely nuts in france |
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| 19:47.15 | rohitr | Indian Schooling system would be competitive on a world wide basis, I'd say. But the university system is way below the world level. |
| 19:49.57 | baer | kblin: hehe, a friend of mine spent 1 1/2 years in strasbourg and some stories were really unbelievable |
| 19:50.35 | baer | but well, some stories from the stuff they did at university here in germany were unbelievable too |
| 19:50.42 | valeuf | baer: like what ? |
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| 19:50.44 | baer | (teacher for french and history) |
| 19:51.24 | baer | i really loved that they took all chairs and tables and blocked a whole building in order to protest |
| 19:51.41 | baer | wish we would do that too ;) |
| 19:51.59 | kblin | baer: I'm talking about the split with Grande Ãcole, University and the like |
| 19:52.18 | valeuf | baer: there is quite strong problem in University in France, which explain such of reaction |
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| 19:53.13 | baer | could you elaborate on that? both of you? ;) |
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| 19:54.51 | valeuf | baer: it is quite o long subject, and I do not know when your friend was in Strasbourg, but it was probably against the LRU bill |
| 19:55.28 | valeuf | baer: it is a new system for the French university which gives a stronger power to the head of university to raise money, and use it as he wants |
| 19:56.01 | valeuf | baer: this is kind of privatization of the University, since most of the money will come from company |
| 19:56.35 | kblin | baer: you might want to check the phdcomics arch about visiting france |
| 19:56.36 | valeuf | baer: I guess such of things happen in Germany too, since it is kind of European rules, (the Barcelona convention) |
| 19:57.02 | YuviPanda | oh we just burn buses and smash windows in protest :D |
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| 19:58.06 | rohitr | valeuf: Wasnt it the Bologna Convention or the Bologna Accords? |
| 19:58.15 | valeuf | sorry Bologna |
| 19:58.51 | valeuf | I was confuse, but yes I was talking about Bologna process (which gives a kind of framework for an unified educational system in the whole Europe) |
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| 19:59.26 | baer | valeuf: ah ok, yes it think that was about that. |
| 19:59.52 | baer | kblin: i can't. i'd have to read the whole archive because i could't stop ;) |
| 20:01.03 | rohitr | valeuf: Wouldnt you want the University to be autonomous and the head of the university to have financial independence from the government. I am curious because this is what academics are trying to do here in India. |
| 20:02.20 | valeuf | IMO, this an extremely unfair system, I am not in University in France, but in a "Grandes Ecoles" which are kind a special university dedicated to engineering |
| 20:02.56 | smtms | valeuf, only engineering? |
| 20:03.09 | valeuf | because we are supposed to be a part of the elite, we get a lot of fund from local company, and so we have really excellent condition of education |
| 20:03.27 | valeuf | (smtms : not only, but mainly) |
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| 20:05.10 | kblin | bear: ah, save it for a time when you should actually cramming for an examn |
| 20:05.33 | valeuf | so for private fund raising is pretty dangerous, if you want to preserve a wide range of formation |
| 20:06.20 | rohitr | valeuf: I would say, the US university system manages the funding part and the academic freedom part quite well. |
| 20:06.22 | valeuf | furthermore, there was a kind of separation of the power between teacher student and head of university, naturally it was really hard to solve issue |
| 20:06.46 | valeuf | because naturally every body disagree with each others |
| 20:07.41 | valeuf | rohitr: well, I do not know so well US system, just from article reading, |
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| 20:08.18 | valeuf | rohitr: but if I understood well, the cost of education is mainly supported by student, of some scholarship from different institution |
| 20:08.47 | rohitr | valeuf: yeah, in that way it is perhaps not so good. |
| 20:09.23 | valeuf | well it is different, there is a lot of of good point from this system |
| 20:09.32 | rohitr | valeuf: I am a firm believer that the state should provide for the education of everyone. And after that it should leave them to the mercy of the free market. ;) |
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| 20:09.47 | valeuf | however, I think that kind of hybrid system as we are doing in France, it cannot work correctly |
| 20:10.06 | valeuf | rohitr: after what ? |
| 20:10.17 | valeuf | rohitr: you mean after high-school ? |
| 20:12.04 | rohitr | valeuf: No. To elaborate. High school for everyone. Then entrance/aptitude exams for admission to universities/vocational schools, or in some cases no further education. and after university/vocation school. No state support, or unemployment benefits etc. But till then the state should assume complete responsibility of a student. |
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| 20:14.39 | valeuf | rohitr: I would love to discuss about educational system more, but time is flying, however, I pretty agree with you |
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| 20:15.06 | valeuf | rohitr: even if I do not see solution against the fact that, when there is so strong exams which can determine future of student |
| 20:15.23 | rohitr | valeuf: same here. I must go and sleep now. Thank you everyone for a nice discussion. |
| 20:15.29 | valeuf | rohitr: you will see the development of a big business of cramming school |
| 20:16.21 | valeuf | rohitr: there is such of system in Asia, the high-school diploma determine which university you can apply, so kids start to prepare the exam really quickly |
| 20:16.34 | rohitr | valeuf: I already have, here in India. |
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| 20:17.21 | rohitr | valeuf: yes, we have kids of 14 going to special 8 hour tuitions everyday so that they can crack the JEE or other entrances, when they are 18 |
| 20:17.25 | valeuf | rohitr: well, I do not Indian system, but you can probably see such of problem, people are only working for exam, not to for their self-development |
| 20:17.44 | valeuf | rohitr: probably similar to what I saw in Korea or China ! |
| 20:18.35 | schumaml | how would you integrate educational systems which claim that pure performance isn't the right way to educate children? |
| 20:18.44 | rohitr | valeuf: True, true. But what can be done. This is the only fair way, when seats are limited. |
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| 20:19.21 | valeuf | rohitr: that's the question, what can be done ^ ^ I have some clue, but not true answer ! |
| 20:19.51 | valeuf | schumaml: how do you measure the performance of a children ? by the result of an exam ? |
| 20:20.15 | rohitr | valeuf: How else can you measure it? |
| 20:20.47 | rohitr | how do you get into the Ecoles? |
| 20:21.03 | valeuf | rohitr: exam ^ ^ but I do not think it is the bes |
| 20:21.41 | valeuf | but I do not think it is the best solution, because, it is pretty hard to measure knowledges, it is not like weight ^ ^ |
| 20:22.35 | rohitr | valeuf: An engineer always goes with the better solution, even if its not the best solution or an ideal solution. ;) |
| 20:22.40 | valeuf | rohitr: instead of having a exam-centered system, we should persuade kid that what they are learning is useful for their self-development, not useful to success an exam |
| 20:23.04 | Zavior | Is most of the work done by students for GSOC projects done remotely? |
| 20:23.07 | schumaml | e.g. consider Waldorf education |
| 20:23.15 | schumaml | Zavior: yes |
| 20:23.24 | valeuf | rohitr: that's theory ^ ^ in fact they goes with the solution they could find !! most of time it is not the best, because they did not have time to find the best |
| 20:24.02 | valeuf | schumaml: I was naturally thinking about such of school in Germany, which I found really interesting, even if it gives me a lot of questions ! |
| 20:24.06 | rohitr | valeuf: this is very interesting. Of course we should. But how? In a world whose fundamental paradigm is competition for finite resources, how can we have an education system that can be like this. |
| 20:24.25 | rohitr | I would love it , if it were like this, but that is wishing for Utopia. |
| 20:25.06 | schumaml | Zavior: in some cases, mentor and student may be able to work from the same place (e.g. if they're at the same university), but I'm pretty sure that's the exception |
| 20:25.16 | rohitr | Maybe someday when humans are the masters of this Galaxy and there is no resource crunch, then human society can go this way. |
| 20:25.46 | valeuf | rohitr: well, many people wrote explain about such of education, and the way to apply such of system to traditional school, it does not always work, there is also a lot of problem |
| 20:26.17 | schumaml | I hope the "masters of this Galaxy" will never happen |
| 20:26.23 | valeuf | rohitr: so I do not what is the best solution, and there is probably not a universal solution, it depends also a lot of cultural aspect, history and so on ^ ^ |
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| 20:26.50 | valeuf | rohitr: but I would not think it is an utopia, and the world is like "that" there is always alternative ^ ^ |
| 20:27.09 | valeuf | schumaml: do you know some peolpe who went to Waldorf school ? |
| 20:27.16 | schumaml | yes |
| 20:27.20 | Zavior | schumaml: Not a fan of He-Man? :P |
| 20:27.26 | schumaml | they claim it is superior |
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| 20:28.10 | valeuf | schumaml: it is looking little bit like "sect" sometimes, so even if I really like the idea, I am pretty skeptical |
| 20:28.36 | valeuf | schumaml: but I know that it is quite widely spread in Germany, contrarily to France. |
| 20:29.01 | rohitr | valeuf: Here in India, there are the IITs just like the Ecoles in France. They are funded way above the usual level and are globally very competitive. The catch: there are just 3000 seats. And thats in a population size of 1100 million people. How can you tell a child not to think about clearing the exam and worry about self development? |
| 20:29.44 | Zavior | wishes he got signed up for GSOC , looks like a fun and educational experience |
| 20:29.58 | rohitr | btw I cleared the exam without tuitions^^, so I am not saying tuitions are good or anything |
| 20:30.06 | schumaml | Zavior: most of the current talk is slightly off-topic :) |
| 20:30.11 | rohitr | thinks Zavior is being sarcastic :) |
| 20:30.18 | Zavior | No really... |
| 20:30.35 | valeuf | rohitr: there is two different things to distinguish : The current situation, and what we can expect |
| 20:31.10 | baer | Zavior: do it next year |
| 20:31.11 | schumaml | valeuf: the non-sect religions are worse |
| 20:31.32 | valeuf | rohitr: in the current situation, I would work hard for the exam (as I did here in France), and what we can expect from the future |
| 20:32.12 | rohitr | valeuf:Short of the Indian GDP growing at 20% each year and India spending all the increase towards education, I cant see the situation improving ;) |
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| 20:32.32 | schumaml | and Waldorf education provides you with the unique ability to dance your name |
| 20:32.44 | valeuf | rohitr: current situation should not block us to do experience and try other system, but we should also not ignore current situation, otherwise you will naturally fail to change it ! |
| 20:34.31 | valeuf | rohitr: well, maybe later you will be in position to change the system ! who know ? |
| 20:34.53 | valeuf | rohitr: but maybe at this time in India, the people who can change system do not think like us ^ ^ |
| 20:35.02 | rohitr | valeuf: I think that you and I are talking about two different things, Lets continue this discussion sometime else( tomorrow?). In the meantime, we can bask in the glory of our elite school tag ;) |
| 20:35.25 | valeuf | rohitr: well I do not know if I will be there :) |
| 20:35.34 | valeuf | rohitr: but you can always try to ping me ^ ^ |
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| 20:35.49 | rohitr | valeuf: They do. Everybody knows this has to be done. We talk about it all the time. But there is nothing practical that can be done, about the resource crunch. |
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| 20:36.54 | rohitr | valeuf: or you can always add me on my brand new gmail account for GSOC :) rrrazdan [TA] gmail [TOD] com |
| 20:36.55 | valeuf | rohitr: well, let's really stop now, because it is really off-topic, and it can be really end-less talk, even if I love that, I have exam soon, I cannot waste so much time |
| 20:41.29 | merwok|away | If people never worked towards utopia, societies would never change. |
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