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| 05:38.43 | kblin | morning |
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| 05:54.51 | kblin | wow, my gsoc student is still alive.. and it only took him ten days of not sending reports to come up with a half-working 7-line cmake file |
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| 05:55.15 | kblin | is very underwhelmed |
| 05:56.30 | thiago_home | was that his first work? |
| 05:56.42 | ojwb | has had weeks like that |
| 05:56.56 | thiago_home | yeah, me too |
| 05:57.04 | thiago_home | the rest of the time dealing with emails and powerpoints... |
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| 05:57.37 | thiago_home | yesterday I spent 4 hours optimising and I got 4-5% improvement in one single function |
| 05:57.47 | dholbach | good morning |
| 05:58.20 | kblin | thiago_home: but a gsoc student shouldn't spend his time dealing with powerpoints |
| 05:58.37 | thiago_home | kblin: depends whether classes are still on |
| 05:59.00 | kblin | ojwb: weeks of "let's ignore my boss and just don't show up at work, meetings or anything"? |
| 05:59.30 | kblin | I thought the US was in summer break now |
| 05:59.57 | thiago_home | I don't know where your student is studying |
| 06:00.20 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: it sounds like you have a lazy or incompetent student |
| 06:00.24 | Dark_Shikari | who should be dropped at midterms |
| 06:01.21 | kblin | thiago_home: I'm not claiming you should, it'd have been a valid point for e.g. a German student |
| 06:01.37 | kblin | here, examn season is just starting |
| 06:01.43 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: that's the plan |
| 06:02.02 | Dark_Shikari | I told one of my students who was being a bit lazy that if his initial patch isn't ready for commit by midterms, he's dropped |
| 06:02.09 | Dark_Shikari | this caused a rapid acceleration of work |
| 06:02.21 | Dark_Shikari | for some odd reason ;) |
| 06:02.39 | bkgood | lol Dark_Shikari, tough love ;) |
| 06:03.05 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: I already told him before that we're not happy with his performance and in order to help him get back on track, he was to send a short daily report before starting to work in the morning |
| 06:03.26 | Dark_Shikari | after the first year in gsoc where we had a student who basically stalled the entire summer |
| 06:03.31 | kblin | stating "this is what I did yesterday and this is what I'm going to work on today" |
| 06:03.32 | Dark_Shikari | my policy has been to drop first, ask questions later |
| 06:03.36 | Dark_Shikari | i.e. if we harass you for an entire month |
| 06:03.39 | Dark_Shikari | and you still have shit all at midterms |
| 06:03.42 | Dark_Shikari | we don't give you another chance |
| 06:03.53 | qrng | Good morning! |
| 06:04.15 | kblin | and last week he just didn't send in any of those reports, or the required weekly report for our community |
| 06:04.52 | bkgood | kblin and Dark_Shikari do your projects use dvcs? |
| 06:04.57 | Dark_Shikari | yes, git |
| 06:05.09 | qrng | kblin: DAILY?! |
| 06:05.17 | qrng | gawks. |
| 06:05.30 | Dark_Shikari | a daily report is reasonable, if only just to say in a few lines |
| 06:05.32 | Dark_Shikari | "here's what I did today" |
| 06:05.40 | thebolt | morning |
| 06:05.43 | Dark_Shikari | it forces people to do things |
| 06:05.48 | Dark_Shikari | otherwise they feel embarassed writing the reports =p |
| 06:06.09 | kblin | and today he turns up with a new weekly report (due on monday), and two little patches |
| 06:06.21 | kblin | bkgood: yes, git |
| 06:06.27 | qrng | Well, I communicate 1-3 times a week. |
| 06:06.47 | kblin | qrng: well, we only required weekly reports at the beginning |
| 06:06.54 | bkgood | kblin: and he's communicating in patches instead of linking to gitorious commits? :/ |
| 06:06.56 | Dark_Shikari | I expect my students to be on IRC every day |
| 06:07.05 | Dark_Shikari | every day I expect at least ONE of the following: |
| 06:07.15 | Dark_Shikari | 1) student asking me a question to help get himself unblocked from a problem |
| 06:07.27 | Dark_Shikari | 2) student asking for a review of something (e.g. a patch or a design decision) |
| 06:07.36 | Dark_Shikari | 3) student telling me his status |
| 06:07.45 | Dark_Shikari | (every workday, of course) |
| 06:07.48 | kblin | bkgood: no. at least creating one line of patch per day isn't quite enough for a trivial project... |
| 06:07.58 | Dark_Shikari | equally, being on IRC is critical so they can answer questions, and respond to pings |
| 06:08.07 | qrng | All this is fine and dandy, but this is summer and I couldn't be bothered to do all those things everyday. |
| 06:08.14 | Dark_Shikari | qrng: gsoc is a fulltime job |
| 06:08.24 | Dark_Shikari | are you incapable of giving your boss a status update each day at work? |
| 06:08.38 | qrng | Mentor is not a boss. |
| 06:08.52 | Dark_Shikari | Yes they are. |
| 06:08.55 | Dark_Shikari | GSOC is a full-time job. |
| 06:08.59 | kblin | sure, mentor is the person who decides if you get paid |
| 06:08.59 | Dark_Shikari | You're expected to work 40 hours a week. |
| 06:09.05 | Dark_Shikari | Your mentor is your boss. He can decide to "fire" you. |
| 06:09.33 | kblin | that qualifies as "boss" in my book |
| 06:09.33 | coppro | I've heard varying numbers for workweeks, btw |
| 06:09.33 | coppro | some say 40, others say less. Others say it's results that matter |
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| 06:09.33 | bkgood | coppro: definitely depends on the project |
| 06:09.47 | qrng | Dark_Shikari: This is pure nonsense. I wrote in my application that I will work no more than 2-3 hours per day max. |
| 06:09.56 | qrng | And it got accepted. |
| 06:10.04 | Dark_Shikari | qrng: That's not standard GSOC procedure. |
| 06:10.07 | qrng | So, of course, I am not going to work 40 hours per week. |
| 06:10.10 | kblin | qrng: ah, mentor fail |
| 06:10.18 | Dark_Shikari | yes, absolute mentor fail |
| 06:10.39 | kblin | qrng: but don't think that every project would put up with that |
| 06:10.49 | kblin | I certainly wouldn't |
| 06:11.03 | qrng | I don't know. Boost does not seem like a failure, nor is there any correlation between simulating 40 hours/week work and productivity. |
| 06:11.06 | qrng | yawns. |
| 06:11.22 | Dark_Shikari | fallacy |
| 06:11.28 | Dark_Shikari | boost being good does not mean your mentor isn't an idiot |
| 06:11.34 | Dark_Shikari | and given your attitude, no matter how efficient you are |
| 06:11.36 | Dark_Shikari | he _is_ an idiot |
| 06:11.49 | qrng | My mentor is a perfectly capable professional and I am happy to have him as my mentor. |
| 06:12.01 | Dark_Shikari | Yes, you're happy because he's giving you $5000 of google's money for free. |
| 06:12.09 | qrng | No. |
| 06:12.09 | kblin | ah, another logical error |
| 06:12.19 | Dark_Shikari | And yes, another logical error. |
| 06:12.34 | kblin | I've seen many perfectly capable professionals who were idiots.. |
| 06:12.43 | qrng | Whatever. |
| 06:12.48 | Dark_Shikari | in fact, idiocy often seems to be concentrated among perfectly capable professions. |
| 06:12.52 | Dark_Shikari | *professionals. |
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| 06:13.03 | qrng | That I can see, actually. |
| 06:13.19 | kblin | anyhow, not knowing who your mentor is, I'm just surprised boost is putting up with that |
| 06:13.49 | kblin | of course there's no way I can check that my student is actually putting in a regular work-week |
| 06:14.11 | kblin | but what I can do is to compare their performance to the performance I'd expect |
| 06:14.35 | kblin | that's how my boss judges my work at $dayjob as well |
| 06:14.52 | coppro | kblin: congrats on the good $dayjob |
| 06:15.15 | Dark_Shikari | indeed, it's a good dayjob where your boss actually judges by performance |
| 06:15.17 | Dark_Shikari | as opposed to the clock |
| 06:15.44 | qrng | That is all fine and dandy IFF the boss os qualified to judge. |
| 06:15.50 | qrng | s/os/is/g |
| 06:15.53 | Dark_Shikari | If the boss isn't, he isn't a good boss |
| 06:16.03 | qrng | Nope. |
| 06:16.40 | qrng | Boss ought to be cut from fine managerial material, but to be a programming professional? Most certainly not. |
| 06:17.04 | kblin | qrng: who said my $dayjob was in software engineering? :) |
| 06:17.17 | qrng | Fair point. |
| 06:17.22 | bkgood | there have been times I've been worried about the #LOC I've written for gsoc but now knowing that there are people that come up with 3 lines a week I feel much better :p |
| 06:17.52 | Dark_Shikari | qrng: the boss should know enough to judge what you've done |
| 06:17.58 | Dark_Shikari | he doesn't have to know the exact details of everything you do |
| 06:18.04 | qrng | 3 lines a week is certainly extreme. Even with my 2/3 hours per day I have about 150kb code base. |
| 06:18.04 | Dark_Shikari | but he must be able to understand what you're doing and why |
| 06:18.11 | Dark_Shikari | if he doesn't, he's a waste of space |
| 06:18.41 | Dark_Shikari | I've consistently worked under such bosses, and their effectiveness is amazing compared to bosses who know fuck all about their own employees |
| 06:19.24 | Dark_Shikari | because you can go up to them, propose idea X, and they can comment on it, both technically _and_ how it affects the business side of things |
| 06:19.30 | Dark_Shikari | if a boss doesn't understand idea X, he can't do either |
| 06:19.32 | Dark_Shikari | so he's useless |
| 06:20.14 | kblin | qrng: well, if you can produce a week's worth of code in a few hours, a performance-based review will of course pass you |
| 06:20.33 | Dark_Shikari | of course, judging productivity by LOC is always doomed to failure |
| 06:20.35 | kblin | qrng: if it takes you a week to produces a few hour's worth of code, you're in trouble |
| 06:20.41 | qrng | kblin: The quantity of code does not really matter so much as quality. |
| 06:20.42 | tylercurtis | Does a n-hour work week even make sense when working from home without a strictly specified schedule(start working at time A, take a N-minute lunch break at time B, stop working no sooner than time C)? A lot of the time, I'm gradually extending functionality and adding tests. And while I'm waiting for tests to run or code to compile, I'm not working on my GSoC. I'm talking on IRC, or reading some website, or working on some other project(frequently stil |
| 06:20.42 | tylercurtis | stuff Parrot-related, but not part of my GSoC). Of course, the same criticism applies to some extent to jobs where you do go in to the office at time A, take a N-minute lunch break at B, and resume working until C. |
| 06:20.53 | Dark_Shikari | tylercurtis: obviously it doesn't have to be exactly N |
| 06:20.55 | Dark_Shikari | but it's a guideline |
| 06:21.06 | Dark_Shikari | And I don't think it has to do with working at home |
| 06:21.09 | Dark_Shikari | because I do the same thing at work |
| 06:21.15 | Dark_Shikari | something is compiling, testing, benchmarking -- I'm on IRC |
| 06:21.22 | kblin | qrng: note "worth", not "amount" |
| 06:21.37 | tylercurtis | frankly has no idea whatsoever how many hours he puts into his GSoC. |
| 06:22.13 | kblin | qrng: I've taken hours to get an algorithm right, and the bug fix consisted of a line or two of code changes |
| 06:22.57 | tylercurtis | Although I suspect I probably don't have to worry about not working enough on my project, because if I spend even the weekend working mostly on other things, I feel a little guilty. And it's going really well as far as I can tell. |
| 06:23.00 | qrng | kblin: Yes, I understand the disctinction. I probably ought to clarify a little bit more. For example, boost::shared_ptr is continually evolving library with MANY years of thinking and design put into it. I don't think its code base is anywhere near 150kb. |
| 06:23.43 | kblin | qrng: right. |
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| 06:24.38 | kblin | qrng: I fully expect slower progress on fiendishly complex code |
| 06:24.53 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: hours! hah! |
| 06:25.06 | Dark_Shikari | At one point a company hired me for _days_ to fix a problem that was confounding them |
| 06:25.13 | Dark_Shikari | it took... literally, days... to find the actual source |
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| 06:25.24 | Dark_Shikari | because it was a heisenbug that ran through like 7 different layers |
| 06:25.25 | kblin | and I also have no problem with taking complex code and having to stare at it for a couple of days, not producing any code |
| 06:25.34 | Dark_Shikari | Another of my favorite bugs took 5 hours to debug, and it was a typo |
| 06:25.39 | Dark_Shikari | I dropped an "O" |
| 06:25.59 | thebolt | also had problems like that.. had some (simulation) instabilities in some code.. me and a workmate put in at least 3 man-months on that one (and the code is less than 1kloc) and didn't fully solve it |
| 06:26.19 | Dark_Shikari | well those are even _harder_ |
| 06:26.22 | Dark_Shikari | algorithmic problems are the worst to solve |
| 06:26.39 | Dark_Shikari | because your "wrongness" is conceptual as opposed to implementation |
| 06:26.40 | bkgood | tylercurtis: I'm in the same boat, I spend a good deal of time bugfixing on parts of my project that aren't specifically my GSOC project, no idea if that counts as 'working on gsoc' |
| 06:27.21 | kblin | qrng: so then the daily reports could consist of "spent my day wrapping my head around XYZ. Is this code really doing <something>? will write some test case to show it does what I think it does" or the like |
| 06:28.04 | kblin | bkgood: depends on your mentor, of course |
| 06:28.23 | kblin | for me, I'm mainly interested in the student working on my project |
| 06:28.59 | bkgood | kblin: oh right, I'm not worried about him coming down on me, I've made significant progress from the beginning and am on schedule for a milestone we set :) |
| 06:29.12 | qrng | nods. |
| 06:29.17 | qrng | And that's all what matters. |
| 06:29.48 | bkgood | but I also work at least 5 hours a day, 6 days a week |
| 06:29.48 | qrng | Schedule and delivered product. |
| 06:30.00 | Dark_Shikari | Not quite |
| 06:30.04 | Dark_Shikari | You also need to get it committed |
| 06:30.11 | Dark_Shikari | a "delivered" patch that never makes trunk might as well not exist. |
| 06:30.20 | kblin | hehe |
| 06:30.32 | Dark_Shikari | the greatest example of "patches doing nothing" syndrome is ffmpeg |
| 06:30.39 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: depends on the project, but I tend to agree |
| 06:30.50 | Dark_Shikari | there are still gsocs from like, 2007, left unmerged |
| 06:30.56 | qrng | By saying "delivered" I mean produced with the expected quality, not simply written up. |
| 06:31.02 | Dark_Shikari | qrng: but that isn't enough |
| 06:31.08 | Dark_Shikari | that doesn't mean it can be committed |
| 06:31.14 | Dark_Shikari | integration is part of the process too |
| 06:31.17 | bkgood | Dark_Shikari: if they're complete, why aren't they merged? isn't that the greater project's fault? |
| 06:31.32 | Dark_Shikari | bkgood: it's both's fault |
| 06:31.38 | Dark_Shikari | 1) the student's fault for abandoning it and not seeing it through |
| 06:31.51 | Dark_Shikari | 2) Michael Niedermayer's fault for being too bloody picky |
| 06:31.58 | kblin | hehe |
| 06:32.03 | qrng | shrugs. |
| 06:32.24 | qrng | Well, I am a mathematician and I am not cut to argue with geeks. |
| 06:32.25 | kblin | I doubt he's more picky than Alexandre Julliard |
| 06:32.29 | qrng | I'd rather polish my nails. |
| 06:32.46 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: probably not as picky as the Wine BDFL |
| 06:32.53 | Dark_Shikari | who is just outright legendary |
| 06:32.54 | bkgood | qrng: hate to break it to you but arguing with a mathematician is arguing with a geek :p |
| 06:33.03 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: same one |
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| 06:33.07 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: oh, he's that guy? |
| 06:33.08 | Dark_Shikari | ahahha |
| 06:33.17 | thebolt | Dark_Shikari: and in numerical simulation.. well, there is just "good enough" ;) |
| 06:33.23 | Dark_Shikari | bkgood: and trying to imply that you're "better" than everyone else here because you're "not a geek".... |
| 06:33.39 | qrng | bkgood: They are talking about pickiness, work hours and other trivia. It's simply not my garden. |
| 06:33.54 | Dark_Shikari | qrng: we're talking about software development |
| 06:33.58 | Dark_Shikari | if you don't like it, don't talk |
| 06:34.03 | Dark_Shikari | don't make elitist comments about "polishing your nails" |
| 06:34.08 | coppro | BDFL? |
| 06:34.09 | Dark_Shikari | you are simply being a jackass |
| 06:34.12 | bkgood | erm as a mathematician myself I can say quite certainly I'm concerned about pickiness, work hours and trivia |
| 06:34.17 | Dark_Shikari | If you have nothing nice to say, simply don't say it. |
| 06:34.25 | Dark_Shikari | coppro: Benevolent Dictator For Life |
| 06:34.25 | kblin | it took me months to get my first gsoc merged with wine |
| 06:34.30 | coppro | lol |
| 06:34.35 | Dark_Shikari | Status of Linus for Linux, Michael Niedermayer for ffmpeg |
| 06:34.43 | Dark_Shikari | Loren Merritt for x264, Alexandre for Wine |
| 06:34.48 | Dark_Shikari | And many many other projects |
| 06:34.54 | Dark_Shikari | A large number of open source projects are run by BFDLs. |
| 06:35.00 | Dark_Shikari | er, BDFLs. |
| 06:35.08 | thebolt | kblin: it took me ~2 weeks in CS (long before gsoc) to get full commit access :P |
| 06:35.09 | coppro | <3s having a project without a BDFL |
| 06:35.09 | Dark_Shikari | oh, Uldrich Drepper for libc |
| 06:35.14 | bkgood | GVR for python |
| 06:35.15 | Dark_Shikari | Though I wouldn't call him "benevolent" |
| 06:35.21 | bkgood | haha |
| 06:35.28 | thebolt | :) |
| 06:35.33 | coppro | turns out GNU sucks |
| 06:35.36 | qrng | What is that BDFL? |
| 06:35.49 | kblin | thebolt: no-one has commit acces for wine, unless you're AJ |
| 06:35.59 | thebolt | kblin: i know |
| 06:36.06 | bkgood | didn't the term originate with GVR, or am I making things up? |
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| 06:36.16 | thebolt | kblin: and in CS we didn't do non-access ;) |
| 06:36.18 | bkgood | coppro: when did you discover that? |
| 06:36.33 | Dark_Shikari | bkgood: it might have, dunno |
| 06:36.43 | coppro | bkgood: when I looked at GCC sources |
| 06:36.48 | Dark_Shikari | yup, it was |
| 06:36.51 | Dark_Shikari | according to wikipedia |
| 06:37.00 | bkgood | [citation needed] |
| 06:37.05 | coppro | bkgood: my project is on clang :D |
| 06:37.18 | bkgood | coppro: and you saw the horrible coding style? lol |
| 06:37.26 | Dark_Shikari | bkgood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL#cite_note-origin-0 |
| 06:37.27 | Dark_Shikari | citation granted |
| 06:37.45 | coppro | bkgood: And then I found why it is so |
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| 06:37.50 | bkgood | oh man there goes my favorite troll :( |
| 06:38.07 | bkgood | coppro: there's no sane explaination for the gnu indent style |
| 06:38.14 | Dark_Shikari | bkgood: there is no gnu indent style |
| 06:38.18 | Dark_Shikari | it's just an elaborate joke |
| 06:38.19 | coppro | bkgood: oh, I'm not just talking about the indentation |
| 06:38.24 | coppro | the whole codebase is an absolute mess |
| 06:38.27 | Dark_Shikari | I did a project involving gnu grep a while ago |
| 06:38.30 | Dark_Shikari | there was no consistent indent style |
| 06:38.33 | Dark_Shikari | every fucking function was different |
| 06:38.48 | coppro | and in GCC's case, it's intentional |
| 06:38.52 | Dark_Shikari | "GNU indentation style" is like "microsoft interface design" |
| 06:38.57 | kblin | hehe |
| 06:39.12 | coppro | the answer as to why: because apparently the GPL isn't quite strong enough; so they need to make it nearly impossible to develop a system by which a proprietary shared library might link against it |
| 06:39.27 | coppro | (RMS may be involved) |
| 06:39.27 | bkgood | I won't rest until indent's default is k&r :D |
| 06:39.41 | Dark_Shikari | I prefer VLC style |
| 06:39.45 | Dark_Shikari | if( x ) |
| 06:39.46 | Dark_Shikari | { |
| 06:39.51 | Dark_Shikari | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:39.51 | Dark_Shikari | } |
| 06:40.03 | Dark_Shikari | a bit spacy, but I like spaces. |
| 06:40.03 | bkgood | Dark_Shikari: if isn't a function!!! |
| 06:40.04 | kblin | bkgood: it doesn't matter too much, as long as it's _consistent_ |
| 06:40.15 | Dark_Shikari | If there's a single style that I absolutely abhor |
| 06:40.24 | Dark_Shikari | I'm fine almost any _other_ style |
| 06:40.34 | kblin | ok, and indents at least by 4 spaces |
| 06:40.37 | Dark_Shikari | it's the one used in the theora source. Or anything by the guy who came up with that style, really |
| 06:40.40 | Dark_Shikari | which is |
| 06:40.42 | Dark_Shikari | 1) omit every single parenthesis that isn't required by C |
| 06:40.45 | bkgood | kblin: I agree with that for the most part... minus the weird spacing by the gnu style |
| 06:40.50 | Dark_Shikari | thus, rely HEAVILY on operator precedence for EVERYTHING |
| 06:40.53 | Dark_Shikari | especially shift operators |
| 06:40.58 | kblin | ew |
| 06:40.59 | Dark_Shikari | 2) omit ALL SPACES on any single line |
| 06:41.08 | Dark_Shikari | 3) omit ALL near-empty lines |
| 06:41.21 | Dark_Shikari | "it gets more on your screen at once!" |
| 06:41.30 | bkgood | and more on your disk |
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| 06:41.39 | kblin | if(x){ |
| 06:41.47 | kblin | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:41.48 | kblin | ? |
| 06:41.52 | sanjoyd | prefers the if (x) { style. |
| 06:41.59 | ojwb | kblin: actually, i've had weeks kind of like that too |
| 06:42.07 | ojwb | fewer since I became my own boss though |
| 06:42.18 | coppro | I tend to gravitate towards the style of whatever codebase I'm working on at a given time |
| 06:42.33 | Dark_Shikari | http://pastebin.org/367748 |
| 06:42.34 | Dark_Shikari | can you read this? |
| 06:42.35 | Dark_Shikari | I can't |
| 06:42.42 | bkgood | coppro: so gplv3 isn't strong enough yet? |
| 06:43.04 | bkgood | Dark_Shikari: maybe with proper names... |
| 06:43.18 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: ah, someone came up with a LISP dialect that can use other kind of braces |
| 06:43.20 | Dark_Shikari | or here's a great line |
| 06:43.21 | Dark_Shikari | if(l>16)val=(val>>l-16)+((val&(1<<l-16)-1)+(1<<l-16)-1>>l-16); |
| 06:43.25 | coppro | bkgood: GCC dates back to before v3, but I think even v3 can't do it, since shared libs are generally agreed to get around the GPL |
| 06:43.35 | coppro | Dark_Shikari: please kill me |
| 06:43.46 | Dark_Shikari | (This is from CELT, which, besides the code style, is pretty awesome) |
| 06:43.48 | bkgood | coppro: RMS is a nut |
| 06:44.11 | thiago_office | GPL libraries trigger the entire program to be released under the rules of the GPL, aside from system libraries |
| 06:44.11 | ojwb | Dark_Shikari: I like the use of l and 1, but for extra points he should have called val i and done "#define I 16" |
| 06:44.12 | kblin | coppro: if you keep saying silly stuff about the GPL, some FSF person might ;) |
| 06:44.20 | coppro | :P |
| 06:44.31 | Dark_Shikari | ojwb: lol |
| 06:44.39 | bkgood | thiago_office: like a virus ;) |
| 06:44.40 | coppro | finds solace in the arms of Lattner... who admittedly works for Apple, but we can look past that |
| 06:45.16 | tylercurtis | Dark_Shikari: I don't think any indentation style would make that code readable. |
| 06:45.22 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 06:45.31 | bkgood | at least he commented it... |
| 06:45.44 | kblin | coppro: I very much doubt "shared libs are generally agreed to get around the GPL" |
| 06:45.45 | Dark_Shikari | Yeah, it is at least commented. |
| 06:45.46 | coppro | thiago_office: Ah, but since a shared lib isn't part of the program until runtime, it doesn't apply except to the ephemeral dynamically-linked copy in RAM, or somesuch |
| 06:45.50 | Dark_Shikari | and pretty well at that. |
| 06:46.04 | Dark_Shikari | I suspect that different people are used to reading different code styles |
| 06:46.10 | Dark_Shikari | e.g. if you're used to it, you can quickly internalize |
| 06:46.27 | bkgood | coppro: so by doing that you basically place the decision to violate the GPL firmly in the user's hands |
| 06:46.38 | thebolt | i think that is one of the things working on open source code has taught me.. quickly read and understand other peoples (lousy) code :P |
| 06:46.43 | coppro | bkgood: It's not a violation then since you don't distribute |
| 06:46.44 | qrng | Dark_Shikari: Seems fine, albeit a little bit more spaces wouldn't hurt. |
| 06:46.45 | thiago_office | coppro: unless you made your program link to it |
| 06:46.58 | thiago_office | coppro: "it happened to load" vs "it won't run without it" |
| 06:47.33 | kblin | coppro: that depends on your definition of "derived work" |
| 06:47.34 | coppro | thiago_office: There's little legal precedent in that area. However, if I modified GCC to have a Win32 interface, surely Win32 wouldn't therefore become GPL |
| 06:47.50 | thiago_office | coppro: I said "aside from system libraries" |
| 06:48.03 | kblin | coppro: Win32 is an API, not a library |
| 06:48.08 | thebolt | i suspect it is a minefield, where you need legal precedents in your juridstiction to know exactly how to interpret it.. |
| 06:48.12 | coppro | thebolt: yes |
| 06:48.22 | coppro | but you can go even further than dynamic linking and go into dlopen territory |
| 06:48.48 | coppro | I don't think you can reasonably argue derivative there |
| 06:49.08 | coppro | (if a modded GCC dlopens a proprietary library not based on GCC) |
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| 06:49.26 | thebolt | well, i fi could i would avoid even the risk of being wrong there..) |
| 06:49.36 | thebolt | ie, i see no reason to try :P |
| 06:49.52 | coppro | Nokia did something similar with their phones IIRC |
| 06:50.02 | kblin | coppro: hm, this is different to the other way around |
| 06:50.05 | thebolt | especially as i wouldn't touch gcc source with a long pole unless absolutly neccesary |
| 06:50.06 | coppro | kblin: yes |
| 06:50.41 | kblin | coppro: i.e. if your closed source app dlopen()s my GPL shared lib and needs that to work, I certainly will consider this a derivative work |
| 06:50.51 | coppro | kblin: I'd tend to agree |
| 06:51.00 | coppro | though of course, derivative is a murky definition since it's usually based on common law |
| 06:51.18 | kblin | you can use the GPL without having to buy Stallman's rethoric |
| 06:51.24 | coppro | yes you can |
| 06:51.41 | coppro | but because of said rhetoric, GCC is nearly incomprehensible |
| 06:51.49 | ojwb | coppro: the GPL has an explicit exclusion for system libraries |
| 06:51.59 | ojwb | so the win32 analogy doesn't work |
| 06:52.01 | coppro | ojwb: Yes, scratch the bad example |
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| 06:52.09 | kblin | but if it was my intent to allow closed source software to link to my library without having to be open sourced, I'd have used the LGPL |
| 06:52.14 | coppro | pick, say, Qt |
| 06:52.19 | coppro | kblin: also agreed! |
| 06:52.36 | thebolt | yea, but there are two distinct cases here.. "gpl code using non-gpl library" and other way around.. "non-gpl code using gpl library".. it is not certain the answer is the same in both cases |
| 06:52.54 | kblin | thebolt: yup |
| 06:53.03 | thebolt | and esp the first case i think it is pretty wide grey-zone due to the system-library exception |
| 06:53.31 | thebolt | for example on my embedded systems I would consider my IPC library a system library.. ;) |
| 06:53.55 | kblin | also it's hard to argue that the external closed-source library would be a derivative of something just by having been dlopened |
| 06:54.06 | thebolt | yea |
| 06:54.18 | thebolt | "i load you, thus you are a derivative work of me".. |
| 06:54.29 | thebolt | -EDOESNOTMAKESENSE |
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| 06:55.30 | coppro | exactly. And it is because of this loophole that GCC's internals are designed to be nigh-incomprehensible |
| 06:56.01 | kblin | coppro: never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained with stupidity |
| 06:56.27 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: iirc RMS has explicitly stated this |
| 06:56.32 | coppro | yes, he did |
| 06:56.32 | Dark_Shikari | then again, he might just be covering for their awful coding style |
| 06:56.46 | tylercurtis | to quote bkgood: [citation needed] |
| 06:57.37 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: that? uh, right.. that's... that's so no-one can steal our code |
| 06:57.45 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
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| 06:58.56 | bkgood | so who's up for nail-painting |
| 06:59.06 | qrng | Me. |
| 06:59.26 | qrng | Finished to polish them, too. |
| 06:59.37 | kblin | must be a maths thing. ;) funny I've never seen an xkcd about that |
| 07:00.00 | bkgood | not a math thing, I definitely don't paint or polish mine |
| 07:00.43 | kblin | anyway, off to work |
| 07:00.45 | qrng | A man is not a gentleman is his nails are not manicured to perfection. |
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| 11:32.59 | Waren | yo |
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| 11:34.43 | sandsmark | and that the CSS and images don't load? |
| 11:35.27 | Chainsaw | If they are using zope/plone, yes. |
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| 13:19.48 | Kovensky | so, did anyone from brazil get a call from customs? did you have to do anything in particular or just wait until the package arrived? |
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| 14:33.06 | ajuonline | *yawns* |
| 14:35.16 | shreyas_ | guys in terms of percentage, how much do u think u are through in your project? |
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| 14:38.55 | pauloricardomg | shreyas_, 40-50% |
| 14:39.04 | pauloricardomg | but it really depends on a myriad of factors |
| 14:39.19 | shreyas_ | definitely, just an informal poll |
| 14:39.22 | pauloricardomg | I think you can't compare different projects, with different levels and different people involved |
| 14:39.56 | shreyas_ | lol, yea i knoe |
| 14:40.30 | thebolt | 48.324% ;) |
| 14:42.17 | YuviPanda | shreyas_: you? |
| 14:42.31 | shreyas_ | 85% give or take |
| 14:43.09 | YuviPanda | shreyas_: i'm at around 60% |
| 14:43.39 | YuviPanda | shreyas_: all the major points of my proposal are done, though a *LOT* of polish needs to be fixed (I need to bring down CPU usage by atleast a factor of 4, for example) |
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| 18:43.52 | abmargb | Do you guys know which is the key the phone bot from citibank asks while registering for a PIN? It asks for the account number (the card number) and a key. I have tried the security code but it did not recognized. |
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| 18:45.21 | Kosma | the ZIP code |
| 18:47.37 | abmargb | ah ok, thank you :) |
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| 18:51.41 | abmargb | it did not work =/ |
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| 18:54.42 | lolfrenz | abmargb, which zipcode did you try? |
| 18:57.19 | abmargb | google's |
| 18:57.50 | Kovensky | I suppose I don't have to register a PIN if I'm not using it in any ATMs |
| 18:57.57 | Kovensky | (there are none from citibank in my city at least) |
| 18:58.07 | Kovensky | package just arrived :> |
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| 19:05.37 | Kovensky | why is citi's website in french? o_O |
| 19:06.00 | drt24 | Kovensky: because they fail |
| 19:06.13 | drt24 | it was randomly in french when I tried but on login it switched back to English |
| 19:07.05 | Kovensky | if I click the drop-down and select spanish it goes to spanish |
| 19:07.15 | Kovensky | if I then try to go back to english it's in french ._. |
| 19:07.21 | drt24 | yeah |
| 19:07.29 | drt24 | try logging in |
| 19:10.04 | YuviPanda | guys, someone had a pic of the stuff that was in the google package no? |
| 19:10.07 | YuviPanda | anayone haz it? |
| 19:10.40 | lolfrenz | why do you need it? |
| 19:12.40 | Kovensky | drt24: ugh, still in french |
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| 19:17.48 | drt24 | :-( |
| 19:20.44 | YuviPanda | lolfrenz: to show a friend, but nevermind. the image in prepaid.citi.com/google was good enough |
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| 19:43.52 | Kovensky | also derp, paypal is a retard; it won't let me put an address in the US as the billing address... |
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| 19:58.26 | Kovensky | carols: hm, wherever I try to use the card online they ask for a phone number; which one should I give |
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| 19:58.45 | coppro | the one associated with it |
| 19:58.56 | coppro | if you changed it, use what you changed it to |
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| 20:03.27 | Kovensky | "Your billing address doesnât look like it matches up with your current country" |
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| 21:25.48 | TheLorax | anybody have problems with citi accepting the google zip code? |
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| 21:45.42 | JSund | TheLorax: when registering the card? some people have had another zip code on the paper that came with the card - try that one |
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| 21:46.02 | TheLorax | I used the one from the paper |
| 21:46.16 | TheLorax | what is the other? |
| 21:46.36 | JSund | 94043 is the Google zip code that's supposed to be there |
| 21:46.48 | TheLorax | that's the one I used |
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| 22:03.53 | carols | TheLorax: please email me |
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