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| 07:55.49 | thebolt | Morning |
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| 08:02.50 | qrng | Good morning! |
| 08:03.33 | qrng | I must admit that I am very happy to be able to participate in GSoC. |
| 08:05.58 | qrng | Just this morning, when I woke up, I experienced a sudden vision how to improve the star discrepancy measurer so that it would not require O(k^s) space. |
| 08:06.16 | qrng | is starting to write an article on that. |
| 08:08.24 | coppro | what project? |
| 08:11.45 | qrng | Quasi-random number generators |
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| 08:12.02 | qrng | You see, quasi-random number generators procude low discrepancy sequences. |
| 08:12.09 | qrng | *produce |
| 08:12.38 | qrng | So the point is to compare the discrepancy of number sequences produced by quasi-random and pseudo-random number generators. |
| 08:12.53 | qrng | This discrepancy computation is by no means cheap. |
| 08:13.51 | qrng | Anyhow, discrepancy bounds of quasi-random number generators have to be lower than discrepancy bounds of pseudo-random number generators. |
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| 08:15.11 | qrng | Sounds simple, but implementation is pretty convoluted. |
| 08:17.26 | gevaerts | decides to believe qrng when he says that it sounds simple :) |
| 08:18.45 | qrng | Ahem. |
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| 08:20.36 | qrng | Anyhow, I simply love doing science. |
| 08:22.47 | thebolt | i wish i had the time to just research stuff and then write articles on it.. however as an engineer i have things to get built and working :P |
| 08:23.30 | qrng | So do I. |
| 08:23.50 | qrng | You cannot write an article on non-working things. |
| 08:25.24 | gevaerts | Why not? Isn't the point not to hide negatives? |
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| 08:26.54 | coppro | qrng: you're working on Boost? |
| 08:27.18 | qrng | Of course, negative result is also a result. Nevertheless, mostly it is bad taste to write like this "Well, I tried this but it didn't work, I don't know what would work". |
| 08:27.30 | qrng | coppro: Yes. |
| 08:27.41 | coppro | I look forward to seeing them in TR4 :P |
| 08:27.56 | qrng | Me, too! :-) |
| 08:28.13 | gevaerts | It of course depends on trying things properly. "I tried this, and I messed up the experiment so it didn't work" isn't going to gain you many friends indeed |
| 08:28.16 | qrng | Boost.Random simply rocks. |
| 08:28.22 | coppro | yeah |
| 08:28.47 | coppro | even better that it's becoming standard |
| 08:28.48 | qrng | gevaerts: Yeah, precisely. |
| 08:28.52 | gevaerts | But "Theory X says that X will work, I tried it and triple-checked everything, and it doesn't" should be different I guess |
| 08:29.07 | thebolt | i'd say that in engineering at least negative results you get with proper care is as good as positive results |
| 08:29.09 | coppro | what is the distinction between quasi and pseudo? |
| 08:29.12 | thebolt | in an academic setting |
| 08:29.22 | qrng | gevaerts: Now, this is called falsification of a theory. This is, of course, very different. |
| 08:29.24 | thebolt | however, if you like me try to build a product you will sell, well then only positive resutls count :-) |
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| 08:29.46 | gevaerts | qrng: yes, so you should always be careful to first publish the theory :) |
| 08:30.09 | qrng | Ha, ha, ha. :-D |
| 08:30.16 | qrng | rolls on the floor, laughing. |
| 08:30.35 | qrng | So you can falsify it later. :-D |
| 08:30.37 | qrng | Properly. :-D |
| 08:30.56 | thebolt | :-) |
| 08:31.34 | qrng | coppro: I can show you a picture. |
| 08:31.49 | coppro | qrng: can you explain in general terms, or is it really technical? |
| 08:31.54 | qrng | http://rosowww.epfl.ch/et/pseudosobol.gif |
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| 08:32.06 | coppro | ah, interesting |
| 08:32.15 | qrng | On the right, there're points produced by quasi-random number generator |
| 08:32.16 | coppro | why would you want a qrng then? What good are you! |
| 08:32.32 | qrng | And on the left is a plain pseudo-random number generator |
| 08:33.01 | dennda | Same amount of points? |
| 08:33.20 | qrng | Low discrepancy sequences are very important in that regard that by employing them you can replace Monte-Carlo integration approximation by quasi-Monte Carlo method. |
| 08:33.26 | qrng | dennda: Yes. |
| 08:33.44 | dennda | So basically the quasi-random stuff is just more evenly distributed |
| 08:33.51 | qrng | And quasi-Monte Carlo converges about an order of magnitude faster. |
| 08:34.03 | qrng | dennda: In a nutshell, yes. |
| 08:34.06 | thebolt | quasi-MC rocks |
| 08:35.22 | qrng | dennda: Those points are more evenly distributed not only in a square, mind you. They have to be evenly distributed in a [0,1]^s hypercube. |
| 08:35.51 | dennda | If the number of dots increases to infinity, I assume the right side would be covered entirely black faster than the left. But would the left always be filled completely black at some point or is there an inherent problem in the pseudo-random stuff? |
| 08:36.17 | thebolt | qrng: for some definition of "evenly" ;) |
| 08:36.29 | coppro | dennda: if the PRNG is a good one, yes |
| 08:36.46 | qrng | Yes, what coppro said. |
| 08:37.00 | dennda | OK |
| 08:37.43 | coppro | in fact, wouldn't a PRNG have to generate each number an equal number of times over its period to be unbiased? |
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| 08:39.02 | qrng | thebolt: This is not that complicated. It is evenly distributed if (let's say we are talking about 1x1 square or [0;1]^2) for the number of points falling on any part of that square is proportional to the area of that part. |
| 08:39.23 | coppro | also, <3 random_device |
| 08:40.07 | kai | morning folks |
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| 08:40.39 | qrng | Or, if we want to be more concice, we can simply say that low discrepancy sequence is such a sequence that any subsequence has the low discrepancy property. :-) |
| 08:41.15 | thebolt | qrng: yea, ;) but it is possible to define "evenly distributed" in more techncial terms.. esp when you come to "even distribution of infinite number of points" ;) |
| 08:41.19 | thebolt | hi kai |
| 08:41.27 | kai | hey thebolt |
| 08:41.29 | qrng | MOrning, kai. |
| 08:41.33 | kai | sighs |
| 08:41.47 | kai | so, my first attempt at using microcontrollers for something cool failed |
| 08:42.25 | qrng | thebolt: M'dear, this is not #math. Here, it's more important to get the point across. |
| 08:42.30 | thebolt | kai: oh? |
| 08:42.34 | kai | and now I need an oszilloscope to figure out why |
| 08:42.45 | thebolt | qrng: what? life is maths, when you get down to it :) |
| 08:42.59 | thebolt | kai: i have two just next to me, come here and you can borrow one |
| 08:43.09 | qrng | I agree wholeheartedly, albeit I am afraid that this sentiment is not universally shared. |
| 08:43.16 | kai | yeah, my servos were moving randomly instead of deterministically moving to a 90° position |
| 08:43.34 | thebolt | kai: hm, normal pulse-length RC servos I guess? |
| 08:43.50 | kai | so using them for theater props for the hamlet play that premiers today failed |
| 08:44.03 | kai | so I got to work with a pneumatics system instead :D |
| 08:44.21 | thebolt | :) |
| 08:44.52 | thebolt | kai: one problem wiht many servos is that if you send them updates too often.. they are just made to take one pulse every 20ms.. |
| 08:45.26 | kai | thebolt: yeah. my guess is one of a) I messed up soldering some contacts b) I messed up programming the PWM signal c) both of the above |
| 08:46.01 | kai | but to debug this, I need a way to tell if my output pin on the microcontroller is sending a good PWM signal |
| 08:46.10 | thebolt | kai: well, it isn't PWM |
| 08:46.19 | thebolt | kai: it is pulse-length encoding |
| 08:46.26 | kai | it is? |
| 08:46.39 | kai | well, 1.5ms up, rest of the 20ms low |
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| 08:46.48 | kai | isn't that what PWM is? |
| 08:47.03 | thebolt | yea, ok |
| 08:47.22 | thebolt | PWM with a very low on-percent |
| 08:47.39 | thebolt | usually PWM is defined by the frequency (up-to-up time) and "on percentage" |
| 08:48.22 | thebolt | and say you control a DC motor, then the frequency isn't terribly important.. at 50% on you will get the same speed with 10kHz and 20kHz PWM frequency |
| 08:48.34 | kai | ok |
| 08:48.40 | kai | I can see that, yeah |
| 08:49.15 | thebolt | but servos are sensitive to the pulse length |
| 08:49.22 | thebolt | anyhow, seems you need an oscilloscope, yes |
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| 08:50.34 | thebolt | good for me I have two 500MS/s scopes here.. doesn't really help you though |
| 08:51.32 | kai | I mean I can check if the up/low ratio is ok with a plain volt-meter, but I can't check if the pulse length is sane |
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| 08:52.37 | kai | but it seems like my gf has a software oscilloscope that connects to a sound card... I can try that :) |
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| 08:53.40 | thebolt | should be enough for this, yes |
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| 09:03.28 | thebolt | 5kHz should be enough to see the pulse-length well enough |
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| 09:21.07 | kai | yeah |
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| 09:44.38 | kai | ew. I should filter out job offers that require programming in cash |
| 09:44.48 | kai | er.. C# |
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| 09:45.33 | gevaerts | isn't cash a shell? :) |
| 09:46.22 | kai | the c-again-shell? |
| 09:47.25 | gevaerts | yes, possibly |
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| 15:30.51 | vivia | does anyone have any instructions on how to measure body length, body width etc? as in,where should these measurements be taken |
| 15:32.32 | ojwb | for t-shirts? there's a link to a sizing guide somewhere |
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| 15:33.37 | LawnGnome | Heh, I think I'm rather lucky with T-shirts: I tend to order mediums, and they just tend to fit, more or less. :) |
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| 15:35.28 | vivia | ojwb: thx, I just googled for a sizing guide L:o |
| 15:35.30 | vivia | :p |
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| 15:40.20 | zontar | gsoc |
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| 15:42.02 | vivia | ojwb: ah yes. that sizing guide is just the one I had, it just gives a list of numbers, not how to measure them |
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| 17:20.51 | thebolt | hi carols |
| 17:20.58 | carols | hi thebolt |
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| 17:27.18 | hugo_br | is there any limit to withdraw cash from an ATM? |
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| 17:28.27 | bkgood | hugo_br: 1000 USD or the ATM's limit, whichever's lower |
| 17:29.25 | hugo_br | bkgood: no matter the currency it is US$ 1000? |
| 17:30.00 | bkgood | yep, afaik |
| 17:30.13 | MatthewWilkes | hugo_br: Why would the currency matter? It's the value that's the limit |
| 17:30.46 | hugo_br | MatthewWilkes: that's because in this meantime someone told me it was R$ 1000 (reais, my currency) |
| 17:31.04 | hugo_br | that's ok. thank you all |
| 17:31.19 | MatthewWilkes | ah |
| 17:31.26 | thebolt | hugo_br: well, local regulations etc might mean ATMs in your area cannot give more than a lower limit than US$1k |
| 17:31.36 | baer | citi will raise it to 2500 usd if you call them |
| 17:32.24 | hugo_br | hmm, I am afraid the limit is lower than 1k |
| 17:32.28 | hugo_br | but that's ok, to |
| 17:32.30 | hugo_br | too* |
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| 17:41.03 | hashman | are there any stats on the midterm results |
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| 18:23.44 | hiddenpearls | yeyy ! I got money |
| 18:24.16 | ranko | same here! |
| 18:24.23 | Kosma | rly? haven't you got the student-list spam yet? ;) |
| 18:25.09 | hiddenpearls | Kosma ? |
| 18:25.18 | mlankhorst | carols! |
| 18:25.22 | Kosma | everyone's been bragging about it for a while :) |
| 18:25.26 | carols | mlankhorst! |
| 18:25.53 | Kosma | (a while = a few hours) |
| 18:27.41 | hiddenpearls | Kosma: lol |
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| 18:36.06 | hiddenpearls | channel says, it is logged |
| 18:36.25 | hiddenpearls | is it logged when we invite someone privately instead of talking publicaly |
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| 18:37.17 | nico_le_terrible | hi all |
| 18:37.27 | lolfrenz | hiddenpearls, no, that is not possible. |
| 18:37.28 | Kosma | hiddenpearls: when you use /msg or /query, no |
| 18:37.43 | schumaml | hiddenpearls: no. but you - the person you're talking to - can log this, of course |
| 18:37.48 | schumaml | +or |
| 18:37.49 | nico_le_terrible | keep it carol s, there is too much flood on mails |
| 18:38.16 | lolfrenz | the students' ml is nuts |
| 18:38.22 | lolfrenz | over 99% noise |
| 18:38.43 | lolfrenz | I mean, over 20 posts on a thread about whether anyone has received posts |
| 18:38.44 | lolfrenz | really? |
| 18:39.11 | lolfrenz | I can't even imagine how such information can possibly be of any use to any student |
| 18:39.23 | nico_le_terrible | yeah |
| 18:39.37 | nico_le_terrible | it's borring, I read only mails from carol s, delete others without read |
| 18:39.48 | nico_le_terrible | google must do something |
| 18:39.59 | nico_le_terrible | more over it's allways the same people who post :$ |
| 18:40.00 | thebolt | tip for handling such lists.. read them using the google groups interface (and not in your inbox :P) |
| 18:40.10 | nico_le_terrible | do this people imagine if the other 1500 students do the same... |
| 18:40.11 | Kosma | or, set up sane filtering rules |
| 18:40.38 | nico_le_terrible | yeah thebolt must be a good way \o/ |
| 18:40.46 | nico_le_terrible | and filtering yeah |
| 18:40.57 | nico_le_terrible | I must look if there is a option "only from" |
| 18:41.24 | thebolt | now i am not on the student list, luckily :) |
| 18:42.05 | schumaml | thebolt: google groups doesn't have a killfile though, does it? |
| 18:43.05 | thebolt | schumaml: probably not, but you can easily ignore entire threads by just seeing their subject ;) |
| 18:43.38 | schumaml | hopes for a global google spam filter |
| 18:43.52 | schumaml | messages marked as spam by enough people will vanish forever |
| 18:44.02 | thebolt | hehe, interesting idea |
| 18:44.03 | schumaml | spammed urls will vanish from google |
| 18:44.55 | schumaml | and in a hopefully not too distant future, the google orbital defense platform will make sure that it the spammed content will never appear again |
| 18:45.07 | schumaml | -it |
| 18:45.11 | thebolt | haha |
| 18:45.27 | thebolt | i thought we weren't supposed to talk about that :P |
| 18:46.24 | schumaml | "dear spammer, we would like to inform you about the fact that your existence will end once you've reached the full stop at the end of this message." |
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| 18:49.48 | thebolt | too bad if someone dos or abuse the reporting system though |
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| 18:50.32 | schumaml | collateral damage |
| 18:50.45 | thebolt | well, it could be you or me :P |
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| 18:52.06 | thebolt | i prefer not to become collateral damage |
| 18:53.23 | nico_le_terrible | to end your existence in the future google should only delete your name from their files :$ |
| 18:53.41 | Kosma | you probably wouldn't want carols to be annihilated just for sending 1000 midterm reminders interpreted as spam ;) |
| 18:53.45 | thebolt | well, depending on what you do for a living it is not far from already |
| 18:54.00 | thebolt | (getting removed from google -> EOL) |
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| 18:59.55 | schumaml | in order to get back on topic - any opinions on the average number of successful students of your orgs? more or less than last year? |
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| 19:00.27 | schumaml | (that's targeted at mentors and admins, mostly) |
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| 19:01.29 | nico_le_terrible | and me i'm interesting to know stats about student |
| 19:01.36 | nico_le_terrible | where they come from, etc |
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| 19:01.51 | timotei21 | hi everyone |
| 19:02.00 | nico_le_terrible | in the first mail of the ml, carol s say they will publish it |
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| 19:02.06 | nico_le_terrible | and i see nothing |
| 19:02.09 | nico_le_terrible | hi timotei21 |
| 19:02.25 | thebolt | nico_le_terrible: such stats have earlier years been published after the program is finished.. i expect it to be the same this year |
| 19:02.43 | nico_le_terrible | ok |
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| 19:05.13 | thebolt | just a guess though :P |
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| 19:11.24 | nano- | Hey, is it normal that you don't get mail for midterm evaluation? |
| 19:11.35 | Kosma | nano-: check your spam folder |
| 19:11.35 | nano- | I filled out the form but neither me nor my student got any mail. |
| 19:11.40 | valeuf | nano-: chech your spaam folder |
| 19:11.50 | valeuf | Kosma: faster than me ^ ^ |
| 19:11.52 | carols | are http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/05/google-summer-of-code-2010-meet.html and http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/07/google-summer-of-code-2010-meet.html not what you're looking for, nico_le_terrible? |
| 19:12.32 | nico_le_terrible | it is, thanks |
| 19:13.00 | nano- | Kosma, valeuf: Thanks. |
| 19:13.15 | nano- | One would think that Google would be able to avoid the spam folder :) |
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| 19:15.45 | valeuf | nano-: I guess that sennding mail to about 1000 people at once is naturally detected as spamming tentative from the spam filters ^ ^ |
| 19:17.14 | nano- | :) |
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| 19:20.00 | timotei | valeuf: don't think if because of that. since every e-mail is sent to maximum 3-4 persons... |
| 19:20.18 | timotei | valeuf: usually the spam detector detects things like: links, 'congratulations'??? |
| 19:20.57 | valeuf | timotei: it also detect if one mail sender send too many mail quickly |
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| 19:21.11 | timotei | valeuf: well, how? |
| 19:21.27 | Kosma | timotei: they own the internets, don't you know? :) |
| 19:21.31 | timotei | :)) |
| 19:21.33 | jcreigh | timotei: I assume gmail's spam filter looks at mails being sent across the entire system |
| 19:21.44 | timotei | jcreigh: yeh, that must be |
| 19:21.47 | valeuf | timotei: I guess most of the students here use gmail, so the mail server at GMail detected that in short amount of time |
| 19:22.06 | valeuf | one sender sent too many mail (furthermore I guess that word like congratulation did not help) |
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| 19:22.18 | timotei | well, gmail staff should have something like: @gmailstaff.com |
| 19:22.23 | timotei | or: @gmail.staff :)) |
| 19:23.10 | valeuf | timotei: it is for that when I have to send mail to a large number of user, I have some script to send mail 10 per 10 with some delays |
| 19:23.21 | MatthewWilkes | or @google.com maybe, timotei? |
| 19:23.34 | timotei | MatthewWilkes: yeah, that too |
| 19:23.38 | MatthewWilkes | :) |
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| 22:07.40 | Kovensky | hugo_br: where did you manage to withdraw cash |
| 22:07.55 | Kovensky | hugo_br: at least I tried on a Bradesco ATM with the VISA logo and I couldn't even check the balance |
| 22:08.02 | Kovensky | though it was probably the ATM's own failure |
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| 22:44.28 | hugo_br | Kovensky: I can't check my balance too, but I can withdraw the cash in banco do brasil |
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| 22:45.18 | Kovensky | hm |
| 22:45.27 | Kovensky | gonna try that later then |
| 22:45.45 | Kovensky | I also noticed that the card only works on some stores |
| 22:46.12 | Kovensky | on most of them, when I try to use it as a credit card I just get "Invalid Card" after "Credit" is chosen in the machine |
| 22:46.22 | Kovensky | works just fine at supermarkets, fails on most standalone machines |
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| 22:51.02 | lolfrenz | you can check your balance online |
| 22:51.43 | coppro | lolfrenz: are you a student or mentor? |
| 22:51.50 | lolfrenz | student heh |
| 22:51.57 | lolfrenz | I'm 18 |
| 22:52.03 | coppro | cool |
| 22:52.05 | coppro | what project? |
| 22:52.22 | lolfrenz | adding a few algorithms to boost, nothing impressive |
| 22:52.33 | coppro | what sort of algos? |
| 22:52.40 | lolfrenz | string search |
| 22:52.44 | coppro | ah, nice |
| 22:52.48 | lolfrenz | knuth-morris-pratt, suffix arrays and the like |
| 22:53.11 | coppro | I look forward to seeing the results |
| 22:53.42 | lolfrenz | heh, thanks |
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| 22:58.05 | lolfrenz | coppro, are you participating in the program yourself? |
| 22:58.30 | coppro | yeah, I'm a student working on clang |
| 22:58.37 | lolfrenz | oh, that's awesome |
| 22:58.41 | lolfrenz | I didn't know clang participated |
| 22:58.54 | lolfrenz | what are you working on? |
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| 23:01.28 | lolfrenz | nvm found you heh |
| 23:01.29 | coppro | lolfrenz: It's participating as a subproject of LLVM; I'm refactoring attributes |
| 23:02.06 | lolfrenz | working on clang sounds leet |
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