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| 02:48.51 | dberkholz|mob | Evening |
| 02:51.22 | maum | hi |
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| 12:47.50 | kai | I hate web development |
| 12:49.05 | cvangysel | lol |
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| 12:51.46 | |Kev| | kai: Writing webapps these days seems to be much less painful than it was a decade ago, though. |
| 12:51.52 | |Kev| | I suck with designing stuff, mind. |
| 12:52.18 | Kulik | it's still annoying and painful |
| 12:52.31 | Kulik | and, at least to me, feels like a repetive grind |
| 12:52.35 | Kulik | it depends on the project of course |
| 12:52.53 | MatthewWilkes | Kulik: Which bits are repetitive, for you? |
| 12:52.55 | kai | |Kev|: I'm currently doing an audit for a CGI script that was written in 1998 |
| 12:53.04 | MatthewWilkes | kai: RUN |
| 12:53.07 | |Kev| | It feels pretty much like writing a desktop app these days, I thought. |
| 12:53.15 | |Kev| | kai: Why are you not in a cave somewhere? |
| 12:53.18 | Kulik | heh, poor kai :) |
| 12:53.24 | MatthewWilkes | kai: "I'm doing an audit for a batch file written in 1998" sounds about as bad |
| 12:53.41 | Kulik | MatthewWilkes: I feel like I have already explored most of the underlying technologies and it doesn't feel creative to me to do it over and over |
| 12:53.52 | Kulik | it definitely matters what exactly do we call web development of course |
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| 12:54.17 | ojwb | kai: so 13 years later it gets audited? |
| 12:54.20 | kai | MatthewWilkes: just that in addition to the usual things I have to watch, I've also got to be on the look-out for all the fun you can have in regards to web-based vulnerabilities |
| 12:54.50 | MatthewWilkes | kai: true, as it's evil person facing |
| 12:55.04 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Not if it was an internal thing protected by password |
| 12:55.30 | kai | MatthewWilkes: it is, but even for those an CSRF might work |
| 12:55.48 | kai | as browsers are "helpful" and remember your credentials |
| 12:56.08 | kai | it's as if your shell scripts could make use of the fact that in another xterm, you're logged in as root |
| 12:56.28 | ojwb | with older versions of sudo, they can! |
| 12:56.49 | kai | but that's considered a bug in sudo |
| 12:56.57 | kai | whereas in a browser it's considered a feature |
| 12:57.29 | ojwb | i do sometimes wonder if web browsers are just too complex now |
| 12:57.40 | kai | at least the script is so old that HTTP 1.1-based attacks don't work :D |
| 12:57.40 | ojwb | there are so many features that security issues are inevitable |
| 12:58.09 | MatthewWilkes | kai: So, one of the things on my long, LONG todo list is making a proxy that does CSRF protection for you |
| 12:58.10 | ojwb | just because nobody can consider all the possible ways that the features can interact |
| 12:58.15 | MatthewWilkes | kai: would that be interesting |
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| 12:58.30 | kai | MatthewWilkes: how's that going to work? |
| 12:59.12 | MatthewWilkes | kai: It would be a WSGI middleware, python standard, but it would introspect responses, find forms, add a hash for the user/form action, and then check it on the way back out |
| 12:59.18 | MatthewWilkes | back in* |
| 12:59.22 | kai | ah |
| 12:59.34 | MatthewWilkes | if it doesn't match it will throw an error |
| 12:59.46 | kai | but that'd be below session tracking |
| 12:59.53 | kai | which I don't have for my app... |
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| 13:00.21 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Do you not have auth? |
| 13:00.29 | kai | HTTP auth |
| 13:00.41 | MatthewWilkes | kai: So it can use those headers as a salt on the url |
| 13:00.51 | MatthewWilkes | generally people don't care about CSRF for anonymous |
| 13:01.08 | kai | I don't either, authentication is mandatory |
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| 13:01.51 | MatthewWilkes | so you take the action of the form and the userid and a secret, md5 them and put it in an authenticator |
| 13:01.58 | kai | but I still need to make sure that the form data can't be replayed, so I need to track which tokens are in use, right? |
| 13:02.12 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Which is absolutely possible, but it would be in the middleware |
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| 13:02.28 | MatthewWilkes | the idea is to say "I want this CSRF protection with these parameters" |
| 13:02.40 | MatthewWilkes | and it does it for you without your backend app knowing |
| 13:02.56 | kai | hehe |
| 13:03.05 | MatthewWilkes | and you can do it with only about a 15ms response time penalty |
| 13:03.17 | kai | I could write a python wrapper :) |
| 13:03.38 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Of course you could, but the idea here is it follows a python standard |
| 13:03.44 | MatthewWilkes | so it could be shipped with any python web app |
| 13:03.48 | MatthewWilkes | or made into a proxy |
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| 13:04.12 | kai | well, yes, for the general approach |
| 13:04.30 | MatthewWilkes | kai: https://github.com/repoze/repoze.bitblt for example |
| 13:06.13 | kai | interesting |
| 13:06.21 | kai | ahrg.. |
| 13:06.37 | kai | another reason this webapp sucks is that you can actually _see_ it was built in 1998 |
| 13:07.13 | kai | it does layout with a table |
| 13:07.17 | kai | yuck |
| 13:07.20 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Is one of methods impeachClinton() ? |
| 13:08.39 | kai | arguably, also works fine in lynx and w3m |
| 13:08.41 | kai | hm |
| 13:09.01 | kai | perhaps I should use those, then at least I don't have to see the ugly colors and button graphics |
| 13:11.03 | kai | MatthewWilkes: no, fortunately the codebase doesn't use camel case |
| 13:11.31 | kai | apart from that one library that I also hate but don't have to deal with today |
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| 13:12.51 | houbsi | for the moment i us "tar -jcvf" to compress my folders. is their another better way? |
| 13:13.14 | zgreg | use xz instead of bzip2? |
| 13:13.25 | zgreg | I think the option is "J" or something |
| 13:13.29 | |Kev| | Well, "tar cjf" will be marginally quicker and save you two keypresses :D |
| 13:13.41 | in3xes | :P |
| 13:13.46 | houbsi | xz? never heard of it. |
| 13:13.49 | kai | !this cookie | |Kev| |
| 13:13.51 | gsocbot | |Kev|: "this cookie" is for you |
| 13:14.04 | |Kev| | :D |
| 13:14.04 | zgreg | it's the standard implementation of lzma2 for unix, pretty much |
| 13:14.14 | kai | hm, I coded the redirection detection correctly it seems |
| 13:14.23 | zgreg | and lzma2 is probably the most awesome compression algorithm to date :) |
| 13:14.43 | kai | zgreg: depends a bit on your data |
| 13:14.45 | MatthewWilkes | zgreg: nah mate, sha1 is awesome |
| 13:14.53 | MatthewWilkes | it's so consistent |
| 13:14.58 | zgreg | heh |
| 13:14.58 | kai | MatthewWilkes: just a bit lossy |
| 13:15.25 | MatthewWilkes | kai: when i do my backups i always get the same file |
| 13:15.29 | MatthewWilkes | if it was lossy it would change |
| 13:15.30 | houbsi | it's for the contribs for my project (the frameworks not developed by my organization) |
| 13:15.30 | zgreg | kai: sure, but it's the best general-purpose one if your goal is to reduce size as much as possible in reasonable time :) |
| 13:16.05 | kai | zgreg: if you have long-distance redundancies, rzip's pretty neat |
| 13:16.09 | |Kev| | MatthewWilkes: The compression given by sha1 can be fantastic (especially as you can truncate the result to one byte) - but you need a significant, and unique, dictionary to decompress. |
| 13:16.52 | MatthewWilkes | |Kev|: My dictionary is unique. I coloured in the borders. |
| 13:17.00 | |Kev| | :D |
| 13:17.14 | zgreg | houbsi: I don't know, I like to stick to well-established standards, such as zip and tar.gz |
| 13:17.34 | houbsi | ok |
| 13:17.38 | zgreg | often, it doesn't matter if you can save 10% or so of bandwidth, but interoperability matters |
| 13:17.47 | houbsi | ok. |
| 13:17.55 | zgreg | but that's just my opinion |
| 13:18.04 | kai | unless you're stuck behind GPRS :/ |
| 13:18.09 | houbsi | thought the big difference in the folders would be seen a little bit more in the tar.bz2 files |
| 13:19.06 | houbsi | at least i saved 5,1Mb in 3 frameworks in linking files and not having the files several times. |
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| 13:48.39 | MatthewWilkes | ooh: http://jboriss.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/user-testing-in-the-wild-joes-first-computer-encounter/ |
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| 14:26.36 | kai | oy, lh |
| 14:27.12 | MatthewWilkes | lh! |
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| 14:43.18 | lh | kai, MatthewWilkes: greetings |
| 14:43.34 | thebolt | hi lh, kai, MatthewWilkes |
| 14:43.43 | lh | thebolt: greetings |
| 14:44.02 | lh | shakes hands with connectivity |
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| 14:49.20 | kai | lh: do you have a clone in germany? |
| 14:50.52 | MatthewWilkes | Every-wun haz ein clon in Germany |
| 14:50.53 | lh | kai: it's possible. i know i have not been there recently. |
| 14:51.10 | |Kev| | lh: You *think* you have not been there recently. |
| 14:51.14 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Oh, have you seen X-Men First Class? |
| 14:51.55 | MatthewWilkes | I got some really, really nasty looks for laughing in the holocaust doctor scenes due to the really stilted german |
| 14:52.28 | kai | MatthewWilkes: nope |
| 14:53.36 | kai | lh: I bumped into a less energetic version of you in the neophilology dept. yesterday |
| 14:54.49 | kai | he, my director is trying to write german text messages again, always cracks me up |
| 14:56.51 | MatthewWilkes | kai: ? |
| 14:57.01 | MatthewWilkes | example! |
| 15:00.17 | lh | kai: fascinating. i have been less energetic lately. maybe due to travels to far off lands without realizing i was doing it. |
| 15:00.27 | kai | possibly |
| 15:00.42 | lh | starts to wonder if this is her personal version of "fight club" only less cranky, injuries and 100% more awesome. |
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| 15:01.41 | kai | MatthewWilkes: "Hi Indians. Wir fangen offiziell um 19:15 an, aber ich würde vorschlagen ein Paare Minuten früher zu kommen...." |
| 15:02.00 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Oh, not that bad |
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| 15:02.25 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Not as good as "Paaren wir heute?" about pair programming |
| 15:02.33 | kai | ok, fair enough |
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| 15:02.52 | kai | still the wrong translation for "a couple of minutes" |
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| 15:08.15 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Yeah, i noticed that |
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| 15:08.50 | MatthewWilkes | kai: Satzbau is rather stilted too |
| 15:10.51 | kai | nah, it's ok |
| 15:11.41 | MatthewWilkes | meh :P I live in england now, sod the germans ;) |
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| 15:17.37 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: oh, back there now? |
| 15:18.05 | MatthewWilkes | yup! |
| 15:18.07 | thebolt | noo more germany or norway? |
| 15:18.11 | MatthewWilkes | no more! |
| 15:18.34 | kai | thebolt: he probably was kicked out for being his usual obnoxious self ;) |
| 15:18.42 | MatthewWilkes | :( |
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| 15:19.40 | thebolt | kai: ;) |
| 15:20.15 | thebolt | hm, two weeks from now i'll once again be on my way back to europe.. wonder who is least prepared.. europe for me, or me for europe ;) |
| 15:21.07 | kai | maaaaaan, how hard can it be to get a stupid 5mm bore mounting hub? |
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| 15:26.50 | thebolt | kai: hm? |
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| 15:33.18 | kai | thebolt: I'm trying to attach the shaft of a stepper motor to a wooden snail cam |
| 15:33.53 | kai | the shaft is 5mm in diameter, and so far I've only found 4 or 6 mm hubs |
| 15:34.14 | kai | probably easy to do yourself, iff you have access to a lathe |
| 15:35.02 | thebolt | well, you could get a 4mm and drill, no? |
| 15:35.19 | thebolt | also, what kind of hub are you looking for? have any picture of the 4/6mm ones |
| 15:35.20 | thebolt | ? |
| 15:36.06 | thebolt | Pololu have 5mm hubs, not sure they are right type for you though |
| 15:37.21 | kai | http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1203 |
| 15:37.30 | kai | looks perfect |
| 15:38.43 | kai | too bad their german distributor doesn't respond to my emails and phone calls |
| 15:38.57 | kai | I've been trying to get hold of them for months now |
| 15:39.18 | thebolt | well, i just bought from their US store |
| 15:39.23 | thebolt | delivery to sweden in 5 days |
| 15:39.43 | thebolt | and not too bad shipping either |
| 15:41.55 | kai | hmm |
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| 15:44.51 | kai | yay, found a german store |
| 15:45.08 | kai | I'm running out of time a bit, so anything that ships faster is great : D |
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| 16:03.58 | Vikash | !next |
| 16:03.59 | gsocbot | Vikash: "next" is July 11th - Mentors and students can begin submitting mid-term evaluations. July 15th - Mid-term evaluations deadline |
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| 16:09.13 | houbsi | hey if i stop/didn't pass the evaluation. do i have to repay the $500? |
| 16:11.27 | DarthGandalf | Are you going to leave? :( |
| 16:11.42 | houbsi | the possibility is high |
| 16:12.12 | houbsi | i'm gonna have to leave for 3 days to an excursion with my drumband. and we gonna sleep in a school with 30 other marching and showbands. |
| 16:12.20 | houbsi | so i can't finish my code. |
| 16:12.38 | DarthGandalf | If your mentor is ok with it... |
| 16:13.38 | DarthGandalf | 500$ is yours anyway |
| 16:15.24 | gevaerts | houbsi: I wouldn't expect a three day delay to be enough to fail |
| 16:15.50 | houbsi | i will see with my mentor ;) |
| 16:19.26 | MatthewWilkes | I would love if my student thought a 3 day gap was enough to fail |
| 16:19.39 | MatthewWilkes | meeting him 4 minutes ago |
| 16:20.16 | houbsi | MatthewWilkes: i don't understand... |
| 16:21.10 | MatthewWilkes | houbsi: I mean, your dedication is admirable |
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| 16:22.03 | houbsi | no i'm dedicated. I only had so much problems in my life for the moment that i lost a bit my positivsm. (and also the work i did till now is not so much, because of exams and family problems) |
| 16:22.39 | MatthewWilkes | houbsi: Admirable means I admire it |
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| 16:23.26 | houbsi | MatthewWilkes: why this? |
| 16:24.25 | houbsi | sorry had to work in the garden/sun today. my brain is small damaged. |
| 16:24.36 | MatthewWilkes | nm |
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| 16:26.41 | Vikash | houbsi all the best |
| 16:27.06 | houbsi | thanks |
| 16:27.10 | houbsi | thanks |
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| 16:35.00 | carols | serves tea and coffee |
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| 16:36.28 | Catfish_Man | sips his tea gratefully |
| 16:36.28 | Catfish_Man | how goes it carols? |
| 16:36.36 | carols | good, how are you Catfish_Man ? |
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| 16:36.47 | houbsi | I take the tea! i'm in need. |
| 16:37.10 | houbsi | Catfish_Man: everywhere i go â¦. you're there xD thats weird. |
| 16:37.16 | MatthewWilkes | darrrr-jeeeeeee-liiiiiiiiing! |
| 16:37.17 | Catfish_Man | is omnipresent |
| 16:37.36 | Catfish_Man | carols: I'm doing well, but definitely still running at capacity. My current project is requiring me to learn a ridiculous amount on a short schedule |
| 16:38.07 | carols | Catfish_Man: yeah, i hear you. seems like things just keep getting busier and busier |
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| 16:38.23 | Catfish_Man | but hey, at least it's learning rather than just tons of useless work :) |
| 16:38.45 | Catfish_Man | doing a lot of groveling through kernel source trying to figure out what on earth they're doing |
| 16:40.11 | carols | that sounds fun |
| 16:40.13 | carols | not :-P |
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| 16:40.22 | Catfish_Man | hehe |
| 16:40.57 | houbsi | whooo O_O youtube also with a new design :D |
| 16:40.59 | Catfish_Man | also helping my ladyfriend get ready to move down here next month, so it's not all technical :) |
| 16:41.34 | carols | there definitely are some good things in there, sounds like :-) |
| 16:41.40 | carols | yeah, google is getting pretty :-) |
| 16:41.46 | houbsi | youtube.com/cosmicpanda if anyone wants to check the new youtube out :) |
| 16:42.15 | houbsi | yeah. only their partner can't realy customize their pages. but in all i love what they did with the player and all :) |
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| 16:46.58 | MatthewWilkes | carols: When is the anti-trust case scheduled for, though? |
| 16:47.15 | MatthewWilkes | carols: Chrome download links in google translate, plus integration on search, etc |
| 16:47.18 | MatthewWilkes | all very blurry |
| 16:47.29 | carols | MatthewWilkes: my life is a little blurry |
| 16:47.34 | carols | maybe i should sue someone. |
| 16:48.03 | MatthewWilkes | carols: THE OPTICIAN! |
| 16:48.10 | carols | excellent idea! |
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| 16:52.01 | aspek | carols: Hi, wondering what does Google do with the sample code submitted by students at the end of GSoC? |
| 16:52.13 | carols | aspek: its posted to the web publicly for all to use. |
| 16:52.17 | carols | it is open source, after all. |
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| 16:54.58 | aspek | ah, i see, Google hosts it on a special place apart from th individual orgs, which obviously host them on thier websites. |
| 16:55.01 | zgreg | carols: but GSoC is about open source anyway. the code is already available from the mentor organisation. |
| 16:55.20 | aspek | ^^ yes exactly |
| 16:55.29 | carols | indeed. |
| 16:55.37 | Kulik | I think it makes sense to group the code created as part of GSoC |
| 16:55.55 | carols | Kulik: group it beyond what organization it was created for? |
| 16:56.11 | Kulik | yeah to get an idea how much code GSoC helped create :) |
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| 16:56.46 | Kulik | by grouping the code I meant google hosting it :) |
| 16:57.01 | carols | Kulik: its on code.google.com, what would you recommend instead? |
| 16:57.29 | Kulik | I am happy with how it is, I was commenting that it makes sense to host it on code.google.com as well as the organisations |
| 16:58.23 | carols | Kulik: a lot of the organizations already do host it, but we leave it up to them. |
| 16:58.41 | carols | i'm not going to make it requirement they host code if they don't want to or can't for some reason. |
| 16:59.42 | Kulik | I wonder which organisations don't host code themselves, especially with things like bitbucket/github being around nowadays |
| 16:59.50 | Kulik | but yeah that would probably be a unnecessary restrioction |
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| 17:07.06 | carols | hey lh :-) |
| 17:07.14 | carols | serves some more tea and coffee |
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| 17:20.45 | houbsi | whats google postal code again? |
| 17:21.00 | carols | 94043 |
| 17:21.04 | beng-nl | carols: nip nip (coffee) |
| 17:21.14 | carols | hey beng-nl :-) |
| 17:21.19 | beng-nl | hi carols :) |
| 17:21.27 | gevaerts | gets some coffee too |
| 17:21.27 | beng-nl | carols: gsoc is going SWELL for us. |
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| 17:21.30 | beng-nl | carols: thanks :) |
| 17:21.41 | carols | beng-nl: glad to hear it! gsoc is very busy for me :-) |
| 17:21.46 | carols | hey censorydep :-) |
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| 17:21.50 | carols | serves more coffee |
| 17:21.56 | carols | it seems to be a party today :-) |
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| 17:22.44 | censorydep | good morning carols :-) |
| 17:22.48 | gevaerts | carols: maybe we need something more partylike than tea and coffee then :) |
| 17:22.58 | carols | whatcha got, gevaerts? :-) |
| 17:23.02 | censorydep | what, like cookies? ;-) |
| 17:23.02 | gevaerts | offers orange juice |
| 17:23.57 | censorydep | hands over some bubbly... it's the mimosa time of day |
| 17:24.42 | carols | awesome :-) |
| 17:24.45 | carols | munches some cookies |
| 17:24.53 | carols | no alcohol for me, too early in the day |
| 17:24.57 | carols | still need to get some work done |
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| 17:25.10 | gevaerts | You're in the wrong part of the world! |
| 17:25.29 | gevaerts | Over here alcohol is perfectly fine at this hour :) |
| 17:25.32 | carols | gevaerts: nah, its beautiful and sunny here today :-) |
| 17:25.42 | gevaerts | Here too! |
| 17:26.22 | carols | gevaerts: oh, alright, then we are *both* in the *right* part of the world and i just have too much work :-P |
| 17:27.04 | gevaerts | carols: your advantage is of course that you can get up much later than I can :) |
| 17:27.12 | carols | gevaerts: indeed :-) |
| 17:27.24 | gevaerts | considers this to be unfair |
| 17:28.07 | carols | gevaerts: as far as i can tell, "fair" does not factored into most things in life :-) |
| 17:28.16 | gevaerts | considers this to be unfair too :) |
| 17:28.26 | carols | agreed |
| 17:30.17 | gevaerts | hm, maybe I should change my mind about this orange juice. It's not suited to dealing with thinking about the unfairness of time zones |
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| 17:30.58 | censorydep | oh goodness, I didn't realize we were going to be doing timezone math. that definitely calls for more "oomph". |
| 17:31.38 | gevaerts | censorydep: not actual timezone maths! Just complaining that they add unfairness to the world :) |
| 17:32.41 | censorydep | *whew!* |
| 17:33.11 | gevaerts | Of course if you really want to... ;) |
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| 20:16.26 | beng-nl | lo |
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| 21:15.13 | alinrus | any google-melange developers up? |
| 21:16.07 | carols | alinrus: i would try in #melange |
| 21:20.24 | alinrus | now we wait() |
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