IRC log for #gsoc on 20111020

00:05.59sumitkdo anyone know how to bill for chocolates?
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00:15.46ojwbsumitk: robert kaye explicitly said he couldn't reimburse people
00:16.19sumitkojwb: oh so its on us then? fun :)
00:16.30MatthewWilkesah, my only night at home for the next 3 weeks
00:16.32MatthewWilkesso nice
00:16.32ojwb"However, please be aware this this extra chocolate won't be covered in our $500 budget"
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00:50.21wkoszekI don't get one thing - how EU countries deal at all with teenagers receiving money from a company?
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00:52.52wkoszekIn Poland receiving money while being < 16 years old is illegal, and even if you're 16 it's permitted under some (strict) circumstances
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00:54.39MatthewWilkeswkoszek: I know italy is excluded because it's illegal, Poland has been well represented in previous GHOPs and GCIs, so I'd think someone would have noticed by now if it was a problem
00:54.49wkoszek2nd thing which I know 0 about is - who owns a copyright for the source code written by a 13-17 old individual? In Poland I think the answer is: "There is no age limit for owning a copyright, thus the code will be 'owned' by that idividual". But I've heard it works a bit different worldwide
00:55.14wkoszekMatthewWilkes: Oh!
00:55.25MatthewWilkeswkoszek: The code is owned by the person who writes it, but licenses it to Google and the Organisation.  Generally, the organisation will say what licence to use.
00:55.30wkoszekMatthewWilkes: I looked at the list of countries and wondered why Italy is excluded.
00:58.24wkoszekMaybe there's a limit of $$$ which is OK to get in Poland and simply Google made it fall under that limit for GCI
00:59.15wkoszekMatthewWilkes: So for FreeBSD it's BSD 2-clause license. Let say we have a student who decided to write source code/extend a program as a part of GCI.
00:59.25wkoszekAnd current file says:
00:59.56wkoszekCopyright (c) 2010 John Smith <johnsmith@freebsd.org>
01:00.14MatthewWilkeswkoszek: They are treated like any other contributor, they sign the same agreements, etc
01:00.29wkoszekAh.
01:01.26wkoszekSo student could just add a line:
01:01.36wkoszekCopyright (c) 2010 Student <student@email.com>
01:01.48ojwb2011 would be better
01:01.51wkoszekAnd there's no copyright for Google for this ?
01:01.54wkoszekYeah.
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01:02.11ojwbi don't think google expect any assignment of copyright
01:02.38neverpanicwkoszek: Copyright law is different in Europe. E.g. you can't give away Copyright under German law.
01:02.48wkoszekSame in Poland.
01:02.50ojwbit would be essentially useless for most GCI tasks anyway
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01:03.13ojwbit's not just "in Europe", it varies between most countries
01:03.26ojwbthough hollywood are working hard on that
01:04.17wkoszekBecause FreeBSD's code lands in all sorts of very interesting places, for teenagers to participate in 'Code' category for FreeBSD, there must be literally 0 (zero) chance that such a student's copyright can be removed/revoked/converted etc..
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01:04.57neverpanicI don't see where this is different for teenagers compared to adults
01:05.39ojwbI can conceive of a law which treats minors differently
01:05.46ojwbin fact, I'm aware of a number
01:06.22neverpanici.e. by not protecting teenager's intellecual property?
01:06.27ojwbbut if an org is concerned about this, they probably need to do their own research into it
01:06.28wkoszekMinors under the age of 18 may not have 100% rights to the results of their work in some countries.
01:06.34wkoszekWhile their parents do.
01:07.09neverpanicSo they would have to add their parents in the copyright notice
01:07.21neverpanicand it would probably involve some more paperwork
01:07.53wkoszekIt's hard to expect 13-17 guys being experts in copyrights.. It would be good to have Google say something about that.
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01:08.45ojwbit's pretty hard to ensure literally zero chance - what if someone (could be an adult equally) contributes code they don't actually own the copyright to?
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01:12.36wkoszekThat's actually covered by GCI rules.
01:17.13Ivanovicah, those are general problems of open source stuff, too
01:17.38ojwbyes, it's a general issue (as I said "could be an adult equally")
01:17.39Ivanovichow can an open source project (no matter if in gsoc/gci or outside of it) be sure that contributions are valid and legally allowed?
01:17.51ojwbthe rules say you warrant you won't do it, but that doesn't mean it can't happen
01:18.05Ivanovichow can the projects *check* that someone is allowed in the country where they currently are to submit code to you under your license?
01:18.39Ivanovicall google can do for projects like this is list any countries they know of as "problematic" as not being allowed
01:18.50theboltmoirning people
01:18.53Ivanovicand trust in the orgs to act sane and not abusing kids
01:20.32Ivanovicso the reasonable approach is to tell the minors to ask their parents if it is okay to work on this stuff
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01:20.58Ivanovicthat is: the laws in each country are there to make sure that the kids are not abused as cheap workers
01:21.18theboltunder swedish law there is no exemption for minors in copyright law, so stands to reason they can hold copyright..
01:21.23Ivanovicwhere most gci tasks are just things to get minors interested in doing some open source stuff
01:21.48thebolthowever, you are not allowed to enter into a legal agreement (such as license something you own away) until you are 18
01:22.41thebolti assume more countries end up in some similar situation too
01:23.18Ivanovicthebolt: that is very likely
01:23.50wkoszekIndeed. Also there's no real way to verify if normal contributors to open source are over or under 18 or 21
01:24.01Ivanovicthe problem here is most likely that the laws were *never* created with open source in mind as well as internationalization based on the internet
01:24.10wkoszekSo this somehow kills the arguments against the potential copyright problems.
01:24.20Ivanovicso there are no international standards that *can* be acted on
01:24.23thebolt(also in sweden and some other countries i know of the copyright notice makes no difference..)
01:24.31theboltyep, thats the thing with laws, they are national
01:24.54theboltsometimes it sucks.. trust me.. i'm working in aviation these days.. :P
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01:28.09wkoszekIf GCI is like GSOC and there's no "(c) 2011 Student or Google or my Mom or Dad", this should be handled like a normal contribution then.
01:28.33wkoszekOtherwise it'll be a PITA.
01:28.46Ivanovicwkoszek: i think it is handled like a normal contribution
01:29.13Ivanovicthat is: the tasks in GCI vary a lot more than what is done during gsoc
01:29.37Ivanoviceg in wesnoth we also had "playtest campaign ABC and give constructive balancing feedback" as tasks
01:29.43Ivanovicas well as translation tasks
01:29.49Ivanovicthings that you can't do in gsoc
01:29.56ojwbwas about to point out you can create tasks where copyright isn't an issue
01:30.08wkoszekIndeed.
01:30.24Ivanovicthough it is *really* challenging to create "enough" tasks
01:30.52wkoszekI just looked at DragonFlyBSD since they participated and they actually got some decent stuff in source code done and I wanted to get more insight in that.
01:31.10wkoszekYup. Google says it's 80, right?
01:31.36wkoszek40 first, 40 after some time. It's *very* hard to have a high-quality list like that.
01:31.39ojwbapparently with translation tasks there were problems last year with people submitting what were pretty clearly just machine translations
01:32.08Ivanovicojwb: that is why you need mentors for translation tasks that proofread the stuff in a timid manner
01:32.25ojwbyes - I was just highlighting it as something to be aware of
01:32.34Ivanovicwkoszek: honestly, 80 tasks is not enough
01:32.40ojwbif you don't have anyone who knows the language, it's perhaps better to avoid it
01:32.47wkoszekIvanovic: Have you coordinated GCIN in your project?
01:33.06Ivanovici had admin privs, too, but i have not done much regarding gci
01:33.14wkoszekIvanovic: You mean students are picky, or they just take everthing that is there?
01:33.21Ivanovicfor wesnoth crab_ has done most stuff regarding gci
01:33.40wkoszekIvanovic: Can you at least honestly tell me how much hours do you have to spend in total to coordinate that?
01:33.41Ivanovici mean that you will have almost everything in the list done in a *really* short time
01:33.50Ivanovicno idea, really
01:33.54wkoszekOk.
01:33.59Ivanovicit also depends on your tasks
01:34.29Ivanovicthat is: adding those tasks in the tracker is a lot of work, so for some "generic kind" you will want to have some template including a template to fill for the results by the students
01:34.43Ivanovicand you need various mentors that got the time to review the work done in a very timid manner
01:35.12ojwbi mentored for debian in GCI a bit last year, and it seemed pretty hectic - students want reviews NOW because they can't claim another task until the current one is reviewed
01:35.21Ivanovicexactly
01:35.37Ivanovici'd say: the mentors got <48h after submission to review the work done
01:35.45ojwbIvanovic: I'm not sure you mean "timid" there...
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01:36.16Ivanovici am not sure either, it is just after 3am over here and i got to catch my cab to the train station in some mins so that i get my plane to the mentor summit...
01:36.17Ivanovic;)
01:36.30ojwbeep, I leave in about 24 hours
01:36.41MatthewWilkesojwb: me too, exciting isn't it?
01:36.43ojwbdetaches head and runs around
01:36.54ojwbas usual I have too much to do first
01:37.06ojwblike you I'm not home for about 3 weeks
01:37.15Ivanovicojwb: looking forward to seeing you
01:37.30wkoszekI have volunteered for mentorship of 1 idea for the screencast.
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01:37.45wkoszekBut I bet coordination of the whole thing actually takes much more time.
01:38.03MatthewWilkesojwb: you're not flying Air Canada via Vancouver, are you?
01:38.12ojwbno, air nz via auckland
01:38.20MatthewWilkeseww, down south!
01:38.35ojwbyep
01:38.45Ivanovicin some hours i'll be in paris my first time
01:38.52MatthewWilkeswhere are you based these days then?
01:38.55Ivanovicokay, i'll only be there for 1:50
01:38.57ojwbwellington
01:39.08MatthewWilkesah
01:39.21wkoszekAre tasks completed in a decent way, or is it a lot of crap too ?
01:39.50MatthewWilkeswkoszek: May students will try and get away with the least work possible
01:39.58MatthewWilkesothers will do truly excellent work
01:40.07Ivanovicwkoszek: it always depends
01:40.23MatthewWilkesI've never seen such a range in quality, but you will get a fair amount of work done that you can't believe, it's that good
01:40.24ojwbthe structure (at least as it was last year) does tend to reward those who maximise the points/time
01:40.28Ivanovicon things like how the task is formulated (you need a *good* template! ;) ) as well as how you review them
01:40.59Ivanovicwas shooked how fast how many tasks were done
01:41.14Ivanovicyeah, it was barely possible to keep up with reviewing as far as i remember
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01:44.35wkoszekSo very small and very granular tasks are the best probably ?
01:44.47Ivanovicyes
01:45.36wkoszekAnd for more complex stuff, list of steps which will let the participant to finalize the task is adviced I bet.
01:47.40Ivanovicexactly
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01:50.35wkoszekAnd this tracker requires me to do what? Retype the task description to the web form?
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01:51.46MatthewWilkeswkoszek:huh?
01:52.30wkoszekIf I were to become GCI coordinator for a project, what's my duties and responsibilities?
01:52.59Ivanoviccu
01:54.45wkoszekI want to understand if GCI requires coordinator.
01:55.31wkoszekSomeboduy, who will do the dirty job with e.g.: retyping project's ideas list into Google forms or some similar kind of slave work :)
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01:56.05ojwbwkoszek: just make that one of the tasks...
01:56.39wkoszekojwb: Heh ;-)
01:57.04ojwbi don't know what's required there (I vaguely recall last year that anyone signed up as a mentor for the org could add tasks and the admin then approved them, but that may have changed)
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01:58.01wkoszekOk, so sounds like something exactly like what I said. Probably retyping list.
01:59.10ojwbi guess there may be a way to bulk-load CSV or similar - you could ask on #melange
02:00.00wkoszek4am here. Going to bed. Will get back tomorrow.
02:00.11wkoszekBut thanks for help so far.
02:06.34dberkholzso, this whole google referer thing blows.
02:06.40dberkholzwoops, wrong channel
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07:25.45kaidear coworker, please use a boolean variable if you want to indicate true or false, not strings that contain 'y' or 'n' or sometimes 'no'
07:26.40kaialso, why is the n-tuple returned by this function one element shorter in the error case?
07:27.11weltallXD good luck with that
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07:29.48kaiI'm getting this threehundred line moster under tests, and then it's refactoring time...
07:30.01kaifeeds the moster an 'n'
07:30.13kaithat's a good use for 'n's
07:30.20kaiboolean values aren't
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07:35.53kaiat least the error handling code is consistently one tuple entry short, and returns the wrong data type on two of them
07:36.09kailooks like either on purpose or like a cut/paste error
07:36.17kaimy money is on the latter
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13:44.27kaiack
13:48.41weltalldid he do also !no and !yes? :D
13:50.23kaino. someone else just sent me a 1.5k line patch for this code
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14:01.56dberkholzman, worst airplane seat i've had in a long time. back, in the middle.
14:02.09dberkholzshould've stuck with my usual airline
14:02.39kaidon't you get your private jet as a rock star?
14:02.52kaior at least a tour bus?
14:03.15dberkholzi passed on the tour bus, they said it would be a 3-day trip
14:03.23weltallback that's really bad :|
14:03.26dberkholzwith stopovers in every dive bar along the way
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15:10.03*** topic/#gsoc is Welcome to Google Code-In 2011-2012! Please read the FAQs - http://goo.gl/jPk4j and the Timeline - http://goo.gl/muCFW for more info.
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15:26.13manugupt1Hello people, I would like to have a logo of google code in at my website to showcase it where can I find one
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16:31.07*** topic/#gsoc is Welcome to Google Code-In 2011-2012! Please read the FAQs - http://goo.gl/jPk4j and the Timeline - http://goo.gl/muCFW for more info.
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16:38.21wolfbmanugupt1: http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/GsocLogos
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17:06.13carolsserves some tea and coffee
17:06.20carolsalmost mentor summit time :-)
17:06.32dberkholzindeed, i'm coordinating vast numbers of airport pickups as we speak
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17:07.03carolsdberkholz: how's it going?
17:07.13dberkholzi'll probably save google $500 in taxi costs =P
17:07.26carolsawesome :-)
17:07.42dberkholzgoing really well
17:07.48dberkholzjust dreading the redeye on the way back
17:08.30dberkholzit would be really nice if you guys considered covering sunday hotel for people with awkward flights, in future years
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17:09.08carolsdberkholz: well, the problem is we can't just cover sunday night for people "with awkward flights." we can either cover everyone's stay or no one's
17:09.33carolsand covering everyone's is an extra $30k
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17:10.30dberkholzyep, it adds up.
17:10.31dbswas happy to pick up the extra $99 to stay a little while longer in the area
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17:11.19dbsand compared to the cost of the cross-continent return airfare and (hopefully) amazing interchange of ideas, I'm happy to pay a tiny bit :)
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17:11.40carolsdbs: is this your first year?
17:12.08dbscarols: it is! I'm the sole Evergreen mentor that could make it, for our first year in the program
17:12.10dberkholzi would be happy to do so, if i had that kind of expendable cash, but i don't. turns out that houses, wives and kids are expensive.
17:12.20carolsdbs: you're in for a treat :-)
17:12.36carolsdberkholz: you can say that again :-)
17:12.47dberkholzturns out that houses, wives and kids are expensive.
17:12.47dbsdberkholz: ah, multiple houses and wives, that's your problem :)
17:14.02dberkholzmy monthly budget for "fun stuff" is $50, and that doesn't go very far.
17:14.03dbsis celebrating 10th anniversary of one and only spouse today
17:14.23meflincongrats
17:16.12|Kev|dbs: Congrats. Probably :)
17:17.24gevaertsdberkholz: maybe try having only one wife
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17:19.46gevaertslooks forward to the mentor summit, but not really to having to wake up in seven and a half hours and still having to pack
17:20.21dberkholzi'm not mormon or islamic, i did stick with one
17:20.29manugupt1Awesome work carols, I just got a reply within 2 mins of sending a mail thanks a lot
17:22.31carolsmanugupt1: you're welcome
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18:05.00gevaertscarols: how reliable are long term weather forecasts in your area? I can see on several websites that there won't be any rain this weekend and next week, but I don't really know how changing the conditions are on that side of the world...
18:05.22gevaertsneeds to decide what to pack in the space that remains after packing the chocolate
18:05.25carolsgevaerts: pretty reliable. california is sunny most of the time
18:05.39carolsmore chocolate, of course!
18:05.48gevaerts:)
18:06.01Catfish_Manwell, unless you're in SF
18:06.29carolsCatfish_Man: well, we're in mountain view all weekend, so nothing to worry about there :-)
18:06.42Catfish_Manfair 'nuff :)
18:06.53Catfish_ManSF you mostly just need neighborhood-granularity reporting, which is hard to get
18:07.56carolsyeah, agreed. sf i carry around a jacket no matter the season
18:08.05gevaertsI'll be looking around in and near Silicon Valley until next friday. If I decide to head to SF, I can always pick a day where the forecasts are optimistic
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19:27.00aghislapacks chocolate safely
19:27.19gevaertsDon't pack it too safely. You still want to find it!
19:29.00carolsgood idea, aghisla. i say the clothes are just there to cushion the chocolate
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19:31.55aghisla:D indeed! when traveling from belgium back to italy i always use clothes to wrap the beer bottles
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19:45.30weltall:P
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20:24.34JordiGHI'm arriving tomorrow at SFO at 09:36. Was there a place to coordinate ride sharing to the hotel?
20:25.35TriskeliosJordiGH: other than the wiki?
20:25.45JordiGHWiki? Wiki? Where?
20:27.46JordiGHAha! https://gsoc-wiki.osuosl.org/index.php/Ride_Sharing_2011
20:28.27gevaertsIt might be a bit late to coordinate properly
20:28.51JordiGHWell, I can try.
20:34.33dbsis going to give SFO to Wild Palms via BART a shot tomorrow night
20:34.52JordiGHOh, I've taken the BART before.
20:35.45gevaertsactually forgot to put his name on the rideshare page, but he won't be able to check if anyone wants to share before he gets there
20:35.50dbsJordiGH: it seems reasonable enough in theory - how's the practice?
20:35.52gevaertsI probably have a bit of room in a car
20:36.30gevaertsIf anyone shouts within half an hour, I have a car booked at 14:00 at SFO, and I go to Wild Palms
20:36.59JordiGHgevaerts: I may say yeah if Andreas Schiffler doesn't respond to the email I just sent.
20:37.29JordiGHI'd have to wait 4 hours in the airport, but hey, I'll get some code done.
20:38.28gevaertsIt could be a bit earlier, but that depends on (a) me going through immigration fast enough, and (b) the car rental people not complaining about me being early
20:39.27JordiGHHow can we be in contact?
20:39.31gevaertsAny passenger would have an important task though: keeping me awake :)
20:39.33JordiGHI can probably steal some wireless somewhere.
20:40.25gevaertsthinks
20:40.33gevaertsI'll have a phone with me of course
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20:41.11JordiGHSo will I, but I can probably only make one phone call when I'm there.
20:41.16aghislai read on SFO website that there is free wifi there
20:41.26JordiGHUsing my phone in the US consumes prodigious amounts of money.
20:41.33gevaertsJordiGH: you mean you're going to be arrested? :)
20:41.40JordiGHaghisla: I think I've used it before, yeah.
20:41.46JordiGHgevaerts: Hopefully not this time.
20:42.07JordiGHgevaerts: But really, one call in the US with my phone and that's all of my phone money.
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20:42.15gevaertsnods
20:42.47aghislasee you tomorrow!
20:42.52gevaertsJordiGH: I'll PM you to figure something out
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20:43.40rbuelscarols: i just had to change my mentor summit flight, can i get the $75 change fee reimbursed too?  my org is well under the $2000 travel allowance.
20:43.48Triskeliosdbs: should be totally fine as long as you check the schedule, I've gone from Berkeley to Mountain View via BART and Caltrain before
20:44.01Triskelios(i.e. all the way around the bay)
20:44.16dbsTriskelios++ # thanks for the reassurance!
20:44.31rbuelsi guess i can submit the receipt and just see what happens rather than bothering carols
20:44.35rbuelschuckles
20:44.58dbssuspects he's going to get to the Wild Palms too late for the main action tomorrow night :(
20:45.38rbuelsdbs: i dunno, i guess it depends on what you think the main action is
20:46.18carolsrbuels: why did you need to change the flight?
20:46.45dbsrbuels: pizza dinner appeals to hungry hungry me right now
20:48.40rbuelscarols: to stay 2 more weeks in berkeley to work on jbrowse at uc berkeley: http://jbrowse.org/
20:48.56rbuelscarols: so, mostly selfish personal reasons, lol
20:49.11carolsrbuels: why isn't berkeley reimbursing you in that case? :-)
20:49.13rbuelscarols: cause i'm going to be hired on to that project as lead dev soon
20:49.30rbuelscarols: cause the lab is out of money in their 2011 travel budget
20:49.41rbuelsand they're stingy academics, lol
20:49.59carolsemail me, please. we'll need to discuss it further
20:51.14rbuelsheh, i'll just pay it myself
20:51.29carolsok
20:52.07rbuelsapologizes for being a jerk
20:52.29gevaertsrbuels: isn't that a contradiction? :)
20:52.55rbuelsgevaerts: well, i won't bring any chocolate either, to cement my jerkitude
20:53.05gevaertsAh, ok then
20:53.15rbuelsgotta do it up right
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