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| 00:02.10 | MatthewWilkes | Lennie: Maybe I'll write a bad application for Melange? |
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| 00:18.07 | Lennie | sorry wass out for food |
| 00:18.13 | Lennie | MatthewWilkes, go for it :D |
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| 00:28.27 | thebolt | Morning |
| 00:30.24 | hekate | 'evening |
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| 00:42.32 | MatthewWilkes | thebolt: afternoon! |
| 00:43.05 | MatthewWilkes | it's not really afternoon, I'm just being contrarian |
| 00:43.49 | thebolt | hehe, i see what time it is there (i run irc on a shell account in europe, so it displays CE(S)T on all the timestamps) ;;) |
| 00:43.54 | thebolt | how's things? |
| 00:44.09 | MatthewWilkes | goodo, you? |
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| 00:48.00 | Lennie | I'm off |
| 00:48.01 | Lennie | nn :0 |
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| 00:56.55 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: freezing as "#¤!"# |
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| 00:57.38 | MatthewWilkes | thebolt: Cold on formosa at the moment? |
| 00:57.54 | MatthewWilkes | Hit -15 in the UK last night |
| 00:58.58 | thebolt | MatthewWilkes: we have about 8-10 outside at the moment.. but in houses without any insulation (other than what is offered by concrete) and no active heating (except small radiators plugged into normal wall-socket) it means its cold inside |
| 00:59.19 | thebolt | this room (our bedroom and my temporary office) is maybe 16 or so now.. rest of apartment is colder |
| 01:00.12 | MatthewWilkes | sounds like my house but warmer |
| 01:00.28 | MatthewWilkes | you can feel the temperature gradient near walls at mine :) |
| 01:00.37 | thebolt | here too |
| 01:00.41 | MatthewWilkes | but… on friday I fly to NZ where it's 20º+ |
| 01:00.56 | thebolt | this room and livingroom has one wall with floor-to-ceiling windows |
| 01:01.06 | thebolt | its nice when its warm and sunny outside, not so much so right now ;) |
| 01:01.16 | thebolt | ah, nz.. fu :P |
| 01:02.09 | MatthewWilkes | yeah, an old house of mine was like that, it was crazy |
| 01:03.43 | thebolt | but its much better than the apartment i used to live in in downtown taipei |
| 01:03.56 | thebolt | not only because i can live together with my fiancé :P |
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| 01:04.13 | thebolt | (140m^2 instead of <20) |
| 01:04.35 | MatthewWilkes | 140? Oooh, spacious! |
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| 03:36.13 | alse | hi |
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| 03:57.01 | alse | hey i have a cool project in my head how to apply for gsoc |
| 03:58.49 | hekate | alse: read the FAQs in the /topic please |
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| 08:42.22 | kai | hey folks |
| 08:42.41 | weltall | hi |
| 08:43.09 | kai | I need an english native speaker for some advice here. Does "I'm looking forward to welcoming you to <city>" sound like a real sentence? |
| 08:44.21 | weltall | sorry i'm not a native speaker |
| 08:45.32 | weltall | but personally i'd use welcome ^^ |
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| 09:13.44 | kai | weltall: no, I'm pretty sure that I'm looking forward to <present participle> is correct |
| 09:17.03 | weltall | seems you are right |
| 09:17.46 | weltall | I am looking forward to welcoming you to the magnificent city of Oxford where you will be sure to make friends and improve your English. => i think an abstract from a site of an english school in oxford is reliable enough... |
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| 10:10.37 | atul_ | he |
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| 10:46.02 | atuljangra | hey guys !! any other news on Gsoc ? |
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| 10:53.31 | thiago | what other news are you expecting? |
| 10:58.04 | weltall | the chocolate shipments |
| 10:58.27 | atuljangra | that was just a conversation starter :P |
| 10:58.35 | atuljangra | thiago : are you a student ? |
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| 12:05.56 | atul_ | . |
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| 13:10.38 | atul | hey guys i have a stupid confusion . At present i have two options |
| 13:10.42 | atul | 1. |
| 13:11.00 | atul | to apply for gsoc this year , |
| 13:11.29 | atul | or 2. to prepare a whole year , by contributing in opensource projects and then coming back next year |
| 13:11.36 | atul | what do you suggest ? |
| 13:11.48 | gevaerts | Why not both? |
| 13:12.55 | atul | gevaerts: ya , it is cool , but i have to start focusssing from now . If i am looking for option 2. then i will look for a perfect open source org and then start doing show , without giving a damn to gsoc |
| 13:13.20 | chrisoelmueller | contributing to open source projects is not limited to gsoc |
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| 13:14.18 | atul | gevaerts: but , if i am considering gsoc , then it's like i have to search about 4-5 projects and then start looking into each of them , which won't be of that much help to me as well as organisations . |
| 13:14.23 | gevaerts | Well, (a) you don't know there will be a gsoc2013, and (b) you don't know that this organisation you'll have worked with for a year will participate |
| 13:14.51 | atul | That organisation will be mozilla , |
| 13:15.00 | atul | i think it will participate , |
| 13:15.07 | gevaerts | *no* organisation is sure |
| 13:15.10 | gaurav_sood91 | atul: i tried that last year. but somehow think its always better to start the first time |
| 13:15.16 | JordiGH | atul: If you want to contribute to free software, start right now. |
| 13:15.17 | chrisoelmueller | there's still plenty of time to prepare for this year's summer of code instance -- mozilla might even not apply or not be accepted |
| 13:15.25 | gaurav_sood91 | atul: i wish i had participated last year too |
| 13:15.52 | atul | @gaurav_sood91 : can we chat in person ? |
| 13:15.53 | chrisoelmueller | *anything* you do that makes you more comfortable working with other people on stuff you like gives you a leg, no matter for which org |
| 13:16.26 | atul | jordigh : ya i am doing that , but it;s like , to make a big difference i need more time : |
| 13:17.06 | gevaerts | What would you *actually* lose by focusing on gsoc2012 first? |
| 13:17.44 | atul | time : I have presently have few ideas that i want to work upon , but i am not working because i am in this gsoc thing |
| 13:18.59 | weltall | why can't you do them anyway? |
| 13:19.14 | atul | time it is weltall |
| 13:20.07 | weltall | i don't really see the difference between doing them aside from gsoc or proposing them and then giving them through gsoc |
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| 13:21.25 | atul | there is , Lemme tell you , first of all , many of them are not open source . and i am not that much into open source , |
| 13:21.37 | atul | have recently started mozilla develpoment |
| 13:21.38 | atul | so |
| 13:22.02 | gevaerts | Hm, is it just me, or do nearly all students who actually have a preferred organisation at this point mention mozilla? |
| 13:22.22 | weltall | big version numbers i tell you gevaerts :P |
| 13:22.34 | weltall | thinks about calling versions 2011 2012 :D |
| 13:22.40 | atul | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:22.53 | atul | oh ya , alll in this mozilla thing |
| 13:22.54 | atul | :P |
| 13:22.59 | gevaerts | You don't need to have done something big |
| 13:23.06 | gevaerts | You need to have made a good impression |
| 13:23.06 | weltall | one of the point of gsoc is making students get near opensource |
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| 13:23.30 | weltall | so it's to be expected that the majority have no experience in opensource |
| 13:23.32 | gevaerts | gsoc is not a reward for a long carreer in open source |
| 13:23.42 | gevaerts | *r |
| 13:23.43 | chrisoelmueller | heh we still label our releases YYYY.# so that can't really be it |
| 13:24.08 | gevaerts | will use Graham's Number next time he needs a version number |
| 13:24.11 | weltall | i think almost all students we had proposals to our org didn't have any experience in opensource (afaik they lacked knownledge of patch and revision control systems) |
| 13:24.40 | weltall | i'd go for exponential releases |
| 13:24.42 | gaurav_sood91 | gevaerts: agree. need to start contributing |
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| 13:24.47 | weltall | power of two so it's cool :D |
| 13:24.50 | thebolt | gevaerts: and the time after? |
| 13:24.51 | atul | and how do i make a good impression ?? |
| 13:24.55 | weltall | 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 :D |
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| 13:25.17 | weltall | well by following their guidelines for the applications as a start |
| 13:25.53 | weltall | by showing of being able to document yourself (aka be independent) |
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| 13:26.11 | weltall | showing entusiasm |
| 13:26.21 | weltall | (that's difficult to fake ^^) |
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| 13:27.19 | weltall | then sure you can start contributions before hand they are positive points |
| 13:27.28 | gaurav_sood91 | weltall: choosing a decent project sounds like the trickiest to me though |
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| 13:27.51 | weltall | definitely that's difficult to but it's not like there are indecent projects it's more like choose something you like doing |
| 13:28.15 | weltall | don't try to fit if you don't |
| 13:29.01 | weltall | (aka don't put some old styled forniture in an house with modern forniture style) (yes i know i fail at those comparisons XD) |
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| 13:31.23 | gaurav_sood91 | weltall: looking for projects which require technologies am familiar with. so no question of trying to "fit" |
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| 13:32.57 | weltall | then that's good |
| 13:33.04 | weltall | but by fit i mean also things you like |
| 13:33.31 | weltall | for example you don't really like watching films or listening to music why would you try to apply for mplayer? |
| 13:33.45 | JordiGH | weltall: Oh, interesting. The student I got last year was already versed in git and had previously participated in GSoC for gcc. |
| 13:33.56 | JordiGH | I guess I got really lucky. |
| 13:33.59 | weltall | you had a returning student :) |
| 13:34.16 | weltall | but we had 250 applications JordiGH so it was the majority the no knownledgeable ones |
| 13:34.20 | gaurav_sood91 | weltall: yeah. that too. no sense in that |
| 13:34.23 | weltall | and also some spam :) |
| 13:34.57 | JordiGH | D: |
| 13:35.00 | JordiGH | I had one applicant. |
| 13:35.06 | JordiGH | feels tiny and insignifcant. |
| 13:37.48 | kai | JordiGH: well 1 good one beats 250 bad ones ;) |
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| 13:43.46 | sfb | Good morning fellas. |
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| 13:52.24 | kai | hm, durnit, html5 can't do streaming <video> yet |
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| 14:04.34 | sfb | weltall: You had 250 applications in CS? |
| 14:04.48 | weltall | no i wasn't a cs mentor |
| 14:05.03 | sfb | Which org was that? Sounds like a nice problem to have. (; |
| 14:05.09 | kai | sounds more like kde or the like |
| 14:05.24 | weltall | actually let me get the precise amount |
| 14:05.27 | sfb | Yeah. But I thought weltall was a CS and/or PS gyu. (= |
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| 14:06.05 | JordiGH | Planeshift? |
| 14:06.12 | weltall | 125 sorry XD |
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| 14:06.25 | weltall | yes planeshift |
| 14:06.42 | JordiGH | Aw, non-free content. :< |
| 14:07.17 | JordiGH | It's kind of hard to get non-nerd types to use free licenses. Wesnoth keeps having this problem with artists not realising that "GPL" means "we're gonna modify the shit out of your artwork." |
| 14:07.19 | weltall | 132 on melange just to be precise to the amount |
| 14:07.33 | JordiGH | Oops, sorry, I used profane language again. I forgot. |
| 14:08.10 | weltall | well we had issues so we aren't going for another license |
| 14:08.16 | weltall | like people requesting a pull out |
| 14:08.22 | JordiGH | What's that? |
| 14:08.38 | weltall | they ask us to remove their content or do a DMCA claim |
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| 14:09.22 | JordiGH | Did they submit it under a free license and didn't understand what that meant? |
| 14:09.41 | weltall | we had even people request gpl code to be removed we don't really want to end in front of a judge to say that the license doesn't allow this |
| 14:10.04 | JordiGH | Yeah, I see. |
| 14:10.06 | JordiGH | :-/ |
| 14:10.23 | weltall | so now code is gplv2 with copyright assignment on the no profit org |
| 14:10.28 | JordiGH | Different culture. I'm amazed Wesnoth and a few others have managed to seemingly work out these problems. |
| 14:11.20 | gevaerts | So you basically have copyright assignment because actual contributors don't understand the license when they start contributing? |
| 14:11.22 | weltall | and art is under the abc license which allows a free use with the main game and portfolio exposition. some artist don't like cc or gpl and don't like other people using their art outside the original product |
| 14:11.39 | weltall | copyright assignment is useful for plenty of other things |
| 14:11.45 | weltall | like relicensing on better licenses |
| 14:11.54 | weltall | lgpl relicensing would be useful for an mmorpg engine |
| 14:12.13 | weltall | linux for example is deadlocked on gplv2 forever |
| 14:12.57 | weltall | yes i know there are bad examples of abuse like what happened in the xonotic split |
| 14:13.07 | JordiGH | Nexuiz? |
| 14:13.11 | weltall | yup |
| 14:13.23 | JordiGH | I don't even get how that happened. There wasn't copyright assignment. |
| 14:13.46 | weltall | hum really? i thought it was else how could they do that? |
| 14:14.00 | JordiGH | No, there were disputes, but they went and did it anyways. |
| 14:14.07 | JordiGH | I guess nobody really wanted to go to court about it. |
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| 14:14.47 | JordiGH | I think "enough" core devs did agree to it or give copyright assignments, but I'm fairly certain not all did (otherwise, xonotic wouldn't exist, right? If everyone had agreed.) |
| 14:14.49 | weltall | personally i find it important that there isn't a developer chase situation if there is need to change license |
| 14:15.19 | weltall | even though it brings dangers for the licensing situation |
| 14:15.29 | weltall | but you are sure that a certain gpl revision cannot be relicensed |
| 14:15.33 | weltall | so you can always branch |
| 14:16.19 | JordiGH | I kind of like how my project is stuck in GPLvX forever. :-) |
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| 14:16.28 | gevaerts | isn't too fond of copyright assignment |
| 14:16.45 | weltall | well i disagree on that personally :) |
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| 14:17.12 | gevaerts | If I'm paid for something, sure, but if I submit a patch, and I have to assign copyright, I basically sign my rights away without getting *anything* in return |
| 14:17.44 | weltall | but you also allow the organization to choose a better license in future if it happens |
| 14:17.44 | JordiGH | gevaerts: Do you feel like keeping your copyleft is having something in return? |
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| 14:18.03 | gevaerts | weltall: and a worse one |
| 14:18.11 | weltall | maybe |
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| 14:18.30 | weltall | but i find worse having to rewrite huge chunks of code because a developer cannot be found anymore |
| 14:18.41 | gevaerts | weltall: basically, I'd agree if in return for a (significant) contribution I also get the right to relicense the entire codebase in any way I see fit |
| 14:19.06 | weltall | well then you'd just go for public domain licensing |
| 14:19.11 | weltall | then you've zero issues at all |
| 14:19.31 | gevaerts | JordiGH: a copyleft license with mixed copyright holders has the major effect that everyone has the exact same rights |
| 14:19.57 | JordiGH | gevaerts: Right, I mean, does this make you feel compensated? |
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| 14:20.21 | weltall | but still doesn't help the situations in which you cannot contact people |
| 14:20.29 | weltall | crystal space is exactly in such a situation |
| 14:20.30 | gevaerts | It means I'm in a symmetric relationship with everyone else, so (in my mind) there's not even a question of compensation |
| 14:20.53 | weltall | they don't have copyright assignment so they need to trash a whole module and rewrite it from scratch (it's even in the gsoc ideas) |
| 14:21.10 | JordiGH | weltall: What is the problematic license |
| 14:21.10 | JordiGH | ? |
| 14:21.14 | weltall | gpl |
| 14:21.25 | weltall | cs must be lgpl or it's quite useless |
| 14:21.28 | JordiGH | Ah, Wikipedia says LGPL. |
| 14:21.28 | weltall | or bsd |
| 14:21.36 | weltall | yes and it is lgpl |
| 14:21.41 | weltall | but there is amodule inside which is gpl |
| 14:21.45 | JordiGH | Why is GPL useless? |
| 14:21.46 | weltall | and that needs to be trashed |
| 14:21.52 | weltall | it's a graphic engine |
| 14:22.03 | gevaerts | weltall: I'd say the big question is why they allowed this gpl module in in the first place |
| 14:22.03 | weltall | so you want major company to use it for their games |
| 14:22.07 | weltall | which means they need lgpl |
| 14:22.20 | JordiGH | weltall: idk, I kind of like GPL for libraries. |
| 14:22.21 | weltall | i don't know about that |
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| 14:22.32 | weltall | i prefer bsd for libraries |
| 14:22.35 | JordiGH | weltall: FFTW is GPL and everyone uses it. If you want to lock it up, you pay. |
| 14:22.53 | gevaerts | JordiGH: only possible with copyright assignment or very good agreements |
| 14:22.56 | aghisla | well, when you pick up a license, you should know what you do |
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| 14:23.03 | weltall | you pay so you inheritely have an organization manage the relicensing JordiGH |
| 14:23.19 | JordiGH | ? |
| 14:23.40 | gevaerts | JordiGH: you pay who, and for what exactly?> |
| 14:23.40 | weltall | the pay part means someone is giving you a special license |
| 14:23.57 | weltall | which means that person has the right to relicense the whole thing to individuals |
| 14:24.03 | weltall | or that organization |
| 14:24.36 | JordiGH | gevaerts: You pay for a license that doesn't require you to free your own code. That way everyone pays either in money or code. I like how the GPL plays hardball. Yeah, you need to have some infrastructure to set that up, but I like the selling exceptions model. |
| 14:25.00 | gevaerts | JordiGH: what does the GPL have to do with this? |
| 14:25.10 | weltall | selling exception requires some waiving of right over your copyright |
| 14:25.13 | JordiGH | gevaerts: Well, any strong copyleft license would do. |
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| 14:25.47 | gevaerts | JordiGH: this isn't what the GPL is for in my mind really. This sounds like an attempt to subvert copyleft to create crippleware |
| 14:26.27 | weltall | yeah it's not gpl intention it's just a way to lock in the use of the library on a donation to the organization basis |
| 14:26.36 | JordiGH | Donation? |
| 14:26.37 | JordiGH | No sir. |
| 14:26.41 | JordiGH | This is a business transaction. |
| 14:26.43 | gevaerts | And yes, that's part of why I definitely wouldn't assign copyright to an organisation that explicitely does this |
| 14:26.50 | JordiGH | The organisation says how much you have to pay. Not you. |
| 14:26.57 | kai | JordiGH: see, that's why I don't like copyright assignments\ |
| 14:27.15 | JordiGH | I think it's completely fair. The GPL is not nice. |
| 14:27.16 | kai | gevaerts++ |
| 14:27.32 | gevaerts | The GPL is perfectly nice. If you don't like its terms, don't use it |
| 14:27.39 | kai | :) |
| 14:27.39 | JordiGH | The GPL is a meanie, and I like it being a meanie, because there are much bigger meanies out there. |
| 14:28.11 | JordiGH | Well, I should say, the GPL is a meanie but only to bigger meanies. It's a kitten to everyone else. |
| 14:28.17 | weltall | i'm currently rewriting most of things available as gpl because i want to make a project which allows a free use and will mean bsd ^^ |
| 14:29.16 | JordiGH | Free for the meanies. :-( |
| 14:29.38 | weltall | the application has little meaning without someone with the money for a server farm |
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| 14:30.55 | gevaerts | If you want your code to be available to anyone, bsd is the right choice. If you want everything to be released, go with GPL or similar. If you want your own source to remain free, that's what LGPL is for. If you want only people who pay to close stuff, sorry, but I won't talk to you |
| 14:30.57 | weltall | i prefer my work to be used and gain success than remain a gpl niche |
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| 14:31.06 | gevaerts | Nice and clear :) |
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| 14:31.32 | weltall | i don't like people who pay to close stuff either |
| 14:32.00 | JordiGH | gevaerts: Selling exceptions is fine. Meanies gotta pay to be meanies, and they gotta pay with code (in which case they're no longer being meanies) or with money. FFTW is doing the right thing. |
| 14:32.09 | weltall | my idea of copyright assignment is not that use which i don't like at all it's just freedom to change license with the agreement of the current contributors to a project |
| 14:32.16 | gevaerts | JordiGH: I strongly disagree with that |
| 14:32.27 | weltall | they cannot pay with code yet |
| 14:32.36 | JordiGH | Then let them pay some other way. |
| 14:32.45 | JordiGH | But everyone should pay. |
| 14:33.07 | weltall | how can you ask someone making an application to pay with the whole code of things which have nothing to do with FFTW |
| 14:33.30 | weltall | if not the fact they use it as service to the rest of the application |
| 14:33.52 | JordiGH | I don't know. We're paying with Octave. It works fine for us. Why should it not work for them? |
| 14:34.15 | JordiGH | g2g |
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| 14:35.23 | gevaerts | weltall: if the entire copyright assignment (or perpetual license assignment, whatever) deal has some sort of clause that says you have to stay within the original intent, that could probably be acceptable to a lot more people. Of course, strictly speaking that wouldn't then allow your GPL to LGPL move :) |
| 14:35.46 | weltall | well then that would probably not work :P |
| 14:35.57 | sfb | I'll stick with AGPL |
| 14:36.31 | harryxiyou | hi all |
| 14:36.32 | weltall | but just to say (i could be wrong) doesn't gnu itself ask copyright assignment? |
| 14:36.55 | gevaerts | Yes, and they have such a clause |
| 14:37.12 | harryxiyou | When can we choose the project ? |
| 14:37.29 | gevaerts | !timeline | harryxiyou |
| 14:37.30 | gsocbot | harryxiyou: "timeline" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2012 |
| 14:37.31 | weltall | if i committed some code as gplv2 and was migrated to gplv3 i wouldn't consider it within the original intent |
| 14:37.53 | weltall | gplv3 restrict a lot more what can be done |
| 14:38.07 | harryxiyou | thanks | gevaerts |
| 14:38.20 | sfb | weltall: If you commited some code as GPLv2 and the rest of the project moves GPLv3 your code is inherently GPLv3. |
| 14:38.52 | weltall | didn't say that didn't happen |
| 14:39.01 | gevaerts | If the project wasn't GPLv2+ or vague "GPL" that shouldn't be dpone |
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| 14:39.24 | harryxiyou | Has anyone done some jobs for file-system |
| 14:40.15 | sfb | harryxiyou: There are some orgs with file system tasks. Keep your eyes peeled when accepted orgs are announced or go look at the 2011 accepted orgs and see if there are any there. |
| 14:40.26 | sfb | harryxiyou: It doesn't hurt to start networking with orgs and potential mentors now. |
| 14:42.14 | weltall | for me the optimal license is a license which allows linking to closed source code but forces changes to the opensource parts to released |
| 14:42.16 | harryxiyou | sfb: ok, thanks |
| 14:43.10 | gevaerts | I'd say the most important things about licensing are (a) actually having thought about it, and (b) being clear about what you actually want and expect |
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| 14:43.41 | gevaerts | Then other people can contribute without suddenly being surprised by some decision |
| 14:43.49 | weltall | yet you might do the wrong choice of license and find that license is being an hindrance to the project |
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| 14:44.02 | harryxiyou | sfb: I wonder if all the mentors will join our irc-group? |
| 14:44.24 | sfb | harryxiyou: Join here in #gsoc? |
| 14:44.27 | sfb | harryxiyou: Nope. |
| 14:44.51 | gevaerts | weltall: yes, and if you expect that to be a problem you can consider copyright assignment, knowing that it has some downsides too :) |
| 14:44.56 | sfb | harryxiyou: You would be better off finding the org(s) you're interested in and posting in their preferred media. Whether that's a forum, mailing list or IRC... |
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| 14:45.40 | weltall | yes it has some downsides as i've said too |
| 14:45.45 | GinoMan | I'm thinking of signing up for it.... but the project I wanna work on I'm not sure if I'm skilled enough for yet |
| 14:46.04 | harryxiyou | sfb: I will join gsoc 2012 so i come here. any comments? |
| 14:46.05 | GinoMan | and to think I've been self studying C++ since I was in 8th grade |
| 14:46.06 | weltall | you've to trust the assignee that he won't go nuts and go against your will of opensource |
| 14:47.13 | gevaerts | weltall: like using the GPL as a weapon to sell closed licenses, you mean? ;) |
| 14:47.24 | weltall | yes too |
| 14:48.45 | gevaerts | GinoMan: the best advice I can give is to use the software you want to work on, look at the bugtracker, see if you can figure something out. |
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| 14:49.25 | GinoMan | gevaerts: it's two software packages but the project is to merge their support for something and fill in the gaps with brand new code where needed |
| 14:49.36 | kai | JordiGH: harryxiyou sounds like a reasonable thing to do |
| 14:50.23 | GinoMan | gcc and clang support for C++11 |
| 14:51.01 | weltall | ^that would be nice as my app doesn't build on it :P |
| 14:51.14 | harryxiyou | kai: Thanks ;-) |
| 14:51.41 | gevaerts | GinoMan: sounds like fun |
| 14:51.47 | GinoMan | there's a lot of areas in both codebases where one supports an aspect of C++11 and the other doesn't so it should be feasible to borrow the supporting code from one compiler and move it over to the other modifying it to fit in with the destination compiler... then the handfull of places neither compiler supports it, write the code for that support and merge it to both projects |
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| 14:52.24 | gevaerts | GinoMan: actually, aren't there licensing issues if you want to move code between gcc and llvm? |
| 14:52.41 | GinoMan | I don't know yet |
| 14:52.44 | GinoMan | still investigating |
| 14:53.11 | weltall | you need to rewrite them yet |
| 14:53.15 | harryxiyou | The latest GPL version is v3, right? |
| 14:53.28 | weltall | gpl isn't compatible with clang license |
| 14:53.33 | weltall | yes |
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| 14:54.08 | weltall | gplv3 was also one of the reason why *bsd operating systems stopped shipping newer version of gcc by default |
| 14:54.14 | weltall | and are migrating to clang |
| 14:54.37 | harryxiyou | For what reasons, you study the GPL. Tell me some stuffs, thanks. |
| 14:54.55 | gevaerts | You might manage to get code from clang into gcc (although I don't know the details), but forget about going the other way |
| 14:55.35 | kai | weltall: actually, I belive clang came about because apple hates gpl |
| 14:55.49 | weltall | gplv3 to be precise |
| 14:56.05 | weltall | notice the last version shipped with macosx and the gplv3 relicensing of gcc |
| 14:56.06 | kai | weltall: you can't put gplv2 stuff in the app-store either, can you? |
| 14:56.14 | weltall | nope |
| 14:56.29 | kai | so I think they hate GPL in general and are scared of gplv3 |
| 14:56.31 | gevaerts | I'd say that that's a different issue though |
| 14:56.45 | weltall | freebsd changed to i don't think they hate gpl so much |
| 14:56.50 | weltall | too* |
| 14:57.14 | kai | apple started writing their own SMB server when samba relicensed to gplv3 |
| 14:57.26 | thebolt | kai: thats different though.. google also recommends not using gpl stuff in userland on android.. |
| 14:57.33 | kai | that tells me they're scared enough to do stupid things ;) |
| 14:58.04 | gevaerts | Allowing copyleft on the app store means you're really suddenly responsible for either distributing source when people ask or ignoring the issue and hope people don't ask. If you're not too much of a copyleft fan to start with, not allowing it is a sound business decision I'd say |
| 14:58.13 | weltall | and that's supposed to be a good thing? it doesn't sound like freedom to me being scared from a license |
| 14:58.45 | kai | weltall: well, they're scared because their patent nuclear weapon arsenal might be at risk |
| 14:58.58 | kai | weltall: that's a feature, imho |
| 14:59.04 | weltall | so what's the reason for freebsd? |
| 14:59.15 | kai | osx is their biggest userbase? |
| 14:59.22 | weltall | and? |
| 14:59.41 | weltall | it's not a problem for them to ship the latest gcc by default if that was the case |
| 14:59.51 | weltall | apple can just build their own old gcc and clang |
| 15:00.14 | gevaerts | As an outsider I don't think the *bsd people were ever very fond of having to rely on GPL software for a fundamental part of the system. You don't have to hate the gpl for that |
| 15:00.30 | kai | right, what gevaerts said |
| 15:00.35 | weltall | i didn't say hate here |
| 15:00.59 | weltall | and they still ship gcc 4.2 as default togheter with clang why not shipping gcc 4.7 with clang? |
| 15:01.04 | kai | weltall: ok, so in the apple case, there's a freedom that I don't care about |
| 15:01.28 | kai | I don't care about apple's freedom to pester me with software patents |
| 15:01.35 | thebolt | weltall: gpl v2 vs v3 when it comes to patent is probably why |
| 15:01.54 | weltall | thebolt, but freebsd not apple |
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| 15:02.57 | kai | I don't see why they'd care about GPLv3 if it wasn't to please their biggest distro |
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| 15:03.22 | kai | they do ship GPLv3 softwre |
| 15:03.31 | weltall | as ports |
| 15:03.40 | kai | right |
| 15:03.48 | gevaerts | I think if you really want to know you should ask them :) |
| 15:03.49 | weltall | aka download and build it yourself at home |
| 15:03.50 | kai | because OSX doesn't use those anyway |
| 15:04.16 | kai | shrugs |
| 15:04.58 | kai | to be honest I don't care much about the *bsds. We don't get many developers from that direction |
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| 15:11.50 | jrabbit | weltall: oh |
| 15:12.01 | weltall | ? |
| 15:12.04 | jrabbit | weltall: FYI they're using old GCC because thats what clang-GCC emulates. |
| 15:12.19 | jrabbit | im pretty sure |
| 15:12.30 | GinoMan | clang I thought was a seperate project based on LLVM before apple ever even paid much attention to it |
| 15:15.04 | GinoMan | clang uses bsd license |
| 15:15.06 | thebolt | it is/was |
| 15:17.57 | GinoMan | so appearantly modified bsd license is "compatible" with the GPLv3 |
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| 15:23.19 | GinoMan | it looks doable |
| 15:23.35 | GinoMan | clang appears to use the modified bsd license |
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| 15:26.19 | GinoMan | and you can put other open source code with different licenses in modules in their own subdirectory with their own LICENSE.TXT |
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| 15:27.07 | GinoMan | so a directory of .c/.cpp/.h/.hpp code with the modified license file |
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| 15:27.20 | weltall | that clang license seems interesting |
| 15:27.49 | gevaerts | GinoMan: "compatible" means you can link stuff together. It doesn't mean you can move code around and expect the maintainers to accept it |
| 15:28.30 | harryxiyou | Has anyone to be a mentor of gsoc this year? |
| 15:29.42 | weltall | first our orgs have to be choosen by google |
| 15:29.54 | GinoMan | gevaerts: it still seems like it can be engineered around, just make c++11 support it's own obj file and link it in |
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| 15:30.45 | harryxiyou | weltall: Tell me your org name |
| 15:30.47 | thebolt | GinoMan: it is compatible in the way that you can put (modified)bsd-licensed code into a gplv3 project.. not the other way around though (and result will be gplv3) |
| 15:30.51 | gevaerts | GinoMan: what's the goal of the project? Have a complete c++11 compiler for your use, or have clang and/or gcc have complete c++11 support? |
| 15:30.54 | weltall | atomic blue |
| 15:31.23 | JordiGH | Are any of you llvm or clang devs? |
| 15:31.29 | GinoMan | have clang and gcc have complete C++11 support |
| 15:32.25 | GinoMan | the idea was to compare the support of the two, cross-port code where one compiler supports that aspect, and write the new code necessary where neither supports it |
| 15:32.51 | JordiGH | GinoMan: Well, g++ documents it: > Dear Jordi, |
| 15:32.51 | JordiGH | > |
| 15:32.53 | JordiGH | Er... |
| 15:32.55 | JordiGH | pastefail |
| 15:33.03 | JordiGH | http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html |
| 15:33.04 | JordiGH | There. |
| 15:33.06 | harryxiyou | weltall: was your org choosen by google 2011? |
| 15:33.10 | weltall | yes |
| 15:33.26 | weltall | same goes for clang they have a list of supported c++11 features (most promiment ones are missing) |
| 15:33.38 | weltall | http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html |
| 15:33.38 | JordiGH | clang is really laggy on C++11. |
| 15:34.00 | harryxiyou | weltall: You were the mentor of this org 2011, right? |
| 15:34.09 | weltall | yes |
| 15:34.19 | gevaerts | GinoMan: I can almost guarantee that neither clang nor gcc will accept external libraries with variant licenses for something as fundamental as up to date c++ support |
| 15:34.22 | JordiGH | Oh, clang's gotten a lot better since I last looked. |
| 15:34.50 | JordiGH | Doesn't gcc require copyright assignment? It's an FSF project, isn't it? |
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| 15:34.54 | harryxiyou | weltall: Tell me your mail address please |
| 15:36.41 | weltall | yes it does JordiGH |
| 15:36.56 | JordiGH | Yeah, gcc is gonna be like "GPLv3 or get out". |
| 15:37.43 | JordiGH | And clang really hates the GPL. |
| 15:37.52 | JordiGH | They're Apple-funded, after all. |
| 15:38.38 | JordiGH | GinoMan: I don't think you'll be able to please them both. What you can do is write the same code and give the same copy to both and license it different ways for each. |
| 15:38.55 | JordiGH | Which... sounds weird... and I don't think it'll work. |
| 15:39.03 | GinoMan | that's starting to seem like the only way I'll be able to do this |
| 15:39.57 | JordiGH | But I'm not even sure that this is a good idea. Forks are generally undesirable. :-( Also, who knows if it's actually technically feasible to write code that works for both. |
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| 15:40.23 | thebolt | i haven't looked at clang (or gcc) in a long time.. |
| 15:40.54 | thebolt | but last time i looked at porting a compiler to a new chip architecture i looked at both gcc and llvm, and at least they are internally _very_ different.. i would guess same goes for gcc frontend and clang.. |
| 15:41.26 | JordiGH | gcc is somewhat intentionally very difficult to modularise. |
| 15:42.35 | weltall | intentionally? |
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| 15:43.25 | JordiGH | Yeah. They want to make sure all the code stays free and modules would make it more tempting to make non-free code that uses gcc. |
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| 15:43.40 | JordiGH | This is just hearsay. Could be false. I've never tried reading the gcc source. |
| 15:44.21 | JordiGH | It's actually one of the complaints of llvm against gcc. The code is too tangled and difficult to separate out. It's why llvm is supposed to be a self-contained platform on which you build other compilers and interpreters. |
| 15:44.49 | gevaerts | I think it's more complicated than that |
| 15:45.11 | gevaerts | I wish I could point to ideological arguments every time my code isn't modular enough :) |
| 15:45.30 | JordiGH | No, really, rms distrusts modularisation. |
| 15:45.43 | gevaerts | And llvm didn't actually start out as a compiler IIRC |
| 15:45.52 | JordiGH | It isn't a compiler. |
| 15:45.55 | JordiGH | clang is. |
| 15:45.58 | weltall | lol gevaerts |
| 15:46.00 | gevaerts | Well yes |
| 15:46.01 | JordiGH | lol |
| 15:46.36 | gevaerts | It started out as a thing called "low level virtual machine", but these days none of that isn't true anymore |
| 15:47.05 | gevaerts | *all or *is :\ |
| 15:47.05 | JordiGH | The goal was always to have a separate platform on which to write compilers and interpreters. |
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| 15:48.05 | gevaerts | Anyway, I tend not to fully believe people who claim they made things tangled and difficult to separate out on purpose |
| 15:48.36 | JordiGH | Even when they reject suggestions to untangle it because they say they don't want non-free code to come out of it? |
| 15:48.48 | JordiGH | rms steps into the gcc mailing lists once in a while and says things like this. |
| 15:49.02 | gevaerts | I don't think that says anything about how it got that way |
| 15:49.16 | tomprince | Well, they recently started allowing plugins. |
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| 15:53.59 | JordiGH | tomprince: Ah, I didn't know that? |
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| 16:06.36 | harryxiyou | What is google code-in ? |
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| 16:09.09 | JordiGH | !ggl google code-in |
| 16:09.20 | JordiGH | Aw, no ggl module in gsocbot? |
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| 16:11.43 | lfaraone | Ha |
| 16:13.03 | lfaraone | Harryxiyou: contest for high school students to work on short tasks in open source projects |
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| 16:15.51 | harryxiyou | lfaraone: How should we join this contest? |
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| 16:16.50 | chrisoelmueller | by applying while the application period is open (which it is not currently, gci winners will be announced soon) |
| 16:17.29 | harryxiyou | Who are the gci winners? |
| 16:17.44 | harryxiyou | orgs, mentors or students? |
| 16:17.56 | chrisoelmueller | gci is not the same as gsoc |
| 16:17.57 | JordiGH | Wow, asking spammers to give three digits of pi seems to have worked. |
| 16:18.43 | thebolt | JordiGH: you ask for the fifth, sixth and eigth decimal? :) |
| 16:18.54 | JordiGH | haha. |
| 16:18.56 | chrisoelmueller | if you want to learn more, check e.g. this page: http://code.google.com/opensource/gci/2011-12/index.html |
| 16:19.23 | harryxiyou | Chrisoelmueller: Thanks ;-) |
| 16:19.45 | chrisoelmueller | sure |
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| 16:32.49 | harryxiyou | chrisoelmueller: If i can join gci now? |
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| 16:34.08 | dfighter | harryxiyou it's been over for some time now |
| 16:34.24 | harryxiyou | ?? |
| 16:34.35 | harryxiyou | GCI has been over? |
| 16:34.39 | weltall | yes |
| 16:34.48 | harryxiyou | Oh my god!!! |
| 16:34.50 | weltall | now it's gsoc period |
| 16:35.10 | dfighter | harryxiyou try later this year, around November/December |
| 16:35.15 | weltall | but who can apply to gci cannot apply to gsoc and viceversa |
| 16:35.15 | dfighter | can't recall when it starts usually |
| 16:35.28 | weltall | due to the requirements |
| 16:35.53 | harryxiyou | Oh i know! Gci2012 does not begin |
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| 16:36.24 | harryxiyou | Gci2011 was over and the winners will be announced, right? |
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| 16:37.15 | weltall | yes |
| 16:37.52 | harryxiyou | Thanks to weltall, dfighter |
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| 16:47.23 | kblin | JordiGH: I regard it as the basic requirement for gsoc that people know how to use google ;) |
| 16:47.31 | kblin | so no google module in gsocbot |
| 16:47.48 | JordiGH | gsocbot can't ggl! :O |
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| 16:49.12 | kblin | I don't see any need for it |
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| 18:17.14 | JordiGH | So teaching students how to use a DVCS and how to not top-post are things I should expect to do unless I have returning students, right? |
| 18:19.38 | weltall | couldn't they learn it themselves? |
| 18:20.19 | harryxiyou | Anyway, it is really the truth ;-) |
| 18:20.36 | chrisoelmueller | hint: if you put 'Experience with git' and 'ML etiquette' on your application template, you will mysteriously have a lot of the students do that on their own :) |
| 18:20.45 | chrisoelmueller | just ask for that experience |
| 18:20.46 | harryxiyou | JordiGH: You are a mentor??? |
| 18:21.02 | JordiGH | harryxiyou: I've been one. With some luck, I'll be one again this year. |
| 18:21.31 | JordiGH | chrisoelmueller: Oh, no, no git. ;-) |
| 18:21.38 | JordiGH | (anything but git...) |
| 18:21.39 | harryxiyou | Yeah, congratulations to you ;-) |
| 18:21.40 | chrisoelmueller | yeah~ |
| 18:21.52 | chrisoelmueller | forgot about your preferences there, sorry :P |
| 18:22.00 | harryxiyou | svn, cvs, hg, etc |
| 18:22.29 | JordiGH | Thanks for remembering. :P |
| 18:22.33 | harryxiyou | They are the basic skills for joining gsoc. |
| 18:22.56 | harryxiyou | So i think choose students who can use them first. |
| 18:23.01 | dfighter | svn and cvs are not Distributed tho... |
| 18:23.03 | weltall | hg? |
| 18:23.10 | weltall | or bazaar? :) |
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| 18:23.28 | JordiGH | is thinking how to tart up our projects page for GSoC: http://octave.org/wiki/index.php?title=Projects |
| 18:23.38 | JordiGH | weltall: Even darcs! |
| 18:24.05 | weltall | ok that's the first time i hear of that ^^ |
| 18:24.43 | JordiGH | darcs' theory of patches is quite interesting. |
| 18:24.55 | harryxiyou | JordiGH: But the orgs have not been choosen by Google, right? |
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| 18:24.57 | JordiGH | I like how he thinks of it as commuting quantum operators, hehe. |
| 18:25.06 | JordiGH | harryxiyou: No, that won't happen for a while. |
| 18:25.08 | weltall | :P |
| 18:25.08 | JordiGH | !timeline |
| 18:25.09 | gsocbot | JordiGH: "timeline" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2012 |
| 18:25.13 | chrisoelmueller | JordiGH: aww, i'd like to work on some of those too .. sadly no time to do that nor mentor it :( |
| 18:25.25 | JordiGH | chrisoelmueller: You know Octave? |
| 18:25.30 | chrisoelmueller | i do, yeah |
| 18:25.42 | JordiGH | Nice. Have we met? I forget, sorry. |
| 18:25.48 | JordiGH | You have a very generic Teutonic name. :P |
| 18:25.58 | weltall | i do too but i used matlab *hides from JordiGH* |
| 18:26.11 | chrisoelmueller | haha thanks :P guess we met at the BART after mentor summit |
| 18:26.26 | JordiGH | Aaahhhh, yes. |
| 18:26.32 | JordiGH | Did I borrow your phone? |
| 18:26.45 | chrisoelmueller | the one of the guy next to me :) |
| 18:26.52 | weltall | tell us you did 100 euro phone calls with it |
| 18:26.57 | weltall | :D |
| 18:27.20 | JordiGH | I don't think I did... |
| 18:27.31 | JordiGH | If so, give me a paypal address to pay my debts. |
| 18:27.38 | weltall | XD |
| 18:27.59 | chrisoelmueller | i don't remember any complaints either, heh |
| 18:28.24 | harryxiyou | JordiGH: What is the project to direct? |
| 18:28.34 | chrisoelmueller | was even paid to do ugly matlab things with QR last term |
| 18:28.35 | JordiGH | harryxiyou: Me? Octave, of course. |
| 18:28.45 | JordiGH | chrisoelmueller: You were? |
| 18:28.51 | harryxiyou | Yeah, sounds good! |
| 18:28.58 | chrisoelmueller | else i hadn't touched matlab for sure |
| 18:29.05 | JordiGH | We got some pretty sweet QR routines in Octave thanks to Jaroslav Hájek, who is now a Google employee. |
| 18:29.36 | srijan02420 | I want work on wordpress.Some bug fixing kind of stuff. How can I do this. |
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| 18:30.05 | srijan02420 | I am done with plugins and themes. |
| 18:30.28 | JordiGH | There should be a "how do I start contributing to free software?" FAQ somewhere. |
| 18:30.29 | weltall | why not finding something in the bugtracker and attaching a patch there ? (or doing pull requests if they use git) |
| 18:30.34 | harryxiyou | Good project. |
| 18:30.38 | JordiGH | esr sort of has "how to be a hacker" advice, but... |
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| 18:31.19 | harryxiyou | I studied matlab. And used it for one of my projects. |
| 18:31.26 | chrisoelmueller | ooh |
| 18:31.27 | chrisoelmueller | does it include 'fire guns at everything' |
| 18:31.30 | chrisoelmueller | scnr |
| 18:32.24 | harryxiyou | I was dreaming to develop a free software as Matlab. But, you know, i have only 24 hours a day ;-) |
| 18:32.27 | Triskelios | JordiGH: OpenHatch has a set of self-training missions: https://openhatch.org/missions/ |
| 18:32.43 | weltall | there is already octave for that :) |
| 18:32.52 | Triskelios | although they're tool-oriented |
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| 18:33.15 | harryxiyou | Yup, so i wanna contribute to octave |
| 18:33.24 | weltall | then do it :) |
| 18:33.33 | harryxiyou | JordiGH: Give me some tips. |
| 18:33.38 | JordiGH | srsly? |
| 18:33.41 | JordiGH | Well. |
| 18:33.45 | JordiGH | Begin by using it. :-) |
| 18:33.56 | weltall | gives a projector to JordiGH so he can do a presentation |
| 18:34.00 | JordiGH | Download it, install it, try running your old code on it. |
| 18:34.03 | harryxiyou | What? |
| 18:34.14 | JordiGH | When something breaks... figure out what broke... and try to fix it.. :-) |
| 18:34.57 | harryxiyou | Heh, sounds reasonable ;-) |
| 18:35.01 | JordiGH | Triskelios: Those training missions look like good advice. |
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| 18:37.20 | harryxiyou | You use hg for subversion, right? |
| 18:37.58 | JordiGH | Uhhhh... |
| 18:38.03 | JordiGH | Yes. |
| 18:38.06 | JordiGH | I'm going to go with "yes". |
| 18:38.10 | JordiGH | For subversive purposes. |
| 18:38.17 | Catfish_Man | heh |
| 18:38.55 | chrisoelmueller | :) |
| 18:39.10 | weltall | lol |
| 18:39.11 | harryxiyou | Ok. |
| 18:39.12 | JordiGH | lol |
| 18:39.20 | weltall | version control btw :D |
| 18:39.33 | chrisoelmueller | JordiGH: is that the famous lol script? |
| 18:39.33 | weltall | or revision |
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| 18:39.48 | harryxiyou | Octave is programmed with C, right? |
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| 18:40.09 | weltall | you could check the code without asking that :P |
| 18:40.41 | harryxiyou | Yup, i will. |
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| 18:41.30 | weltall | there are also tools like ohloh |
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| 19:01.49 | srijan02420 | I want work with wordpress! Other than plugins and themes. |
| 19:02.04 | JordiGH | Huh, students who are relatives of Google employees can't apply? |
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| 19:03.03 | srijan02420 | Something in its code. Bug clearing and stuff...Can anyone help? |
| 19:03.29 | thiago | try asking in a wordpress channel |
| 19:03.58 | srijan02420 | thiago: is it #wordpress |
| 19:04.50 | JordiGH | Probably! |
| 19:04.54 | JordiGH | If not, it's probably ##wordpress. |
| 19:05.25 | srijan02420 | thanks guys! |
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| 19:07.55 | brianSan | hi |
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| 19:08.49 | JordiGH | harryxiyou: Octave is C++. There is some C, but very very little. |
| 19:09.19 | JordiGH | chrisoelmueller: My lol script is famous now? |
| 19:09.47 | harryxiyou | JordiGH: Thanks. |
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| 21:53.36 | JordiGH | Woo! Excited about GSoC. |
| 21:55.08 | weltall | you don't look like a student :D |
| 21:56.00 | JordiGH | No, but there's already several students who seem interested. |
| 21:56.05 | JordiGH | We're gonna get lots of coadz. |
| 21:56.07 | JordiGH | All the coadz. |
| 21:56.33 | JordiGH | Bit worried that there don't seem to be more mentors interested, though. |
| 21:56.34 | weltall | XD |
| 21:56.44 | weltall | you'll do full time mentor |
| 21:56.45 | weltall | :D |
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| 23:15.46 | subh | hey can anyone suggest me some good organization working in network + security area |
| 23:24.32 | scorche|sh | subh: well, of course the orgs havent been chosen yet, but nmap has been accepted in the past |
| 23:24.52 | scorche|sh | check through the list of orgs that participated last year and see if any strikes your fancy |
| 23:26.14 | subh | but it is very difficult to work with them coz they are at very advance level |
| 23:26.46 | scorche|sh | that doesnt mean that there is no simpler work that needs doing |
| 23:26.54 | subh | i saw some of their bugs correction but it is vry difficult for me to understand |
| 23:26.56 | subh | :( |
| 23:27.14 | scorche|sh | subh: so try to - there are a number of months between now and SoC ;) |
| 23:28.04 | Catfish_Man | networking and security are, in general, incredibly difficult to understand and get right |
| 23:28.08 | subh | scorche|sh : i nvr did any bug fixing |
| 23:28.22 | scorche|sh | subh: never a time like the present to start! |
| 23:28.33 | scorche|sh | subh: generally though, GSoC isnt about fixing bugs |
| 23:29.03 | subh | i am student of network security i know theoretic part but in code it is diffcult |
| 23:29.32 | scorche|sh | subh: again - never a time like the present to start learning ;) |
| 23:29.36 | subh | to get familiar with them it is important to fix their bug |
| 23:29.57 | subh | i understood but i need right guidance |
| 23:30.00 | scorche|sh | unfortunately, GSoC is a practical exercise - not theoretical |
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| 23:30.14 | subh | i know c c++ java python and js |
| 23:30.37 | subh | but open source projects are different level |
| 23:31.18 | subh | means i dont know how to start to understand their code and what to fix and how to fix |
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| 23:34.28 | subh | scorche|sh can u help me find out a example so that i can fix any bug |
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| 23:35.12 | scorche|sh | subh: i cant, sorry - i have enough on my plate and this is really something you should do/learn to do on your own |
| 23:35.30 | subh | any links |
| 23:35.33 | subh | ?? |
| 23:35.58 | scorche|sh | try communicating with an organization you would like to work with and see if they have some mentors that can help you through their code |
| 23:36.15 | subh | ok :) |
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