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| 00:42.47 | thebolt | morning |
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| 02:59.46 | o0o0o | _o_o_ oOo _o_o_ |
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| 03:23.27 | haseeb_ | !logs |
| 03:23.27 | gsocbot | haseeb_: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
| 03:24.00 | meflin | its all the same |
| 03:24.05 | meflin | only the names wil change |
| 03:24.14 | meflin | every day its seems like we are wasting away |
| 03:24.39 | meflin | I'm I'm a cobay .. on a steal house I ride |
| 03:27.51 | ojwb | surely it's "steel horse"? |
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| 03:28.13 | meflin | wrong chan :) |
| 03:28.17 | meflin | but you are right |
| 03:28.29 | ojwb | please miss, he started it |
| 03:29.00 | meflin | wanted dead or alive |
| 03:35.23 | meflin | have the ref of " flesh of heart , heart of steel" |
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| 05:03.29 | tian2992 | araujo, ping |
| 05:03.33 | tian2992 | araujo, ping |
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| 05:14.46 | LockeWatts | Anyone awake at this hour? :) |
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| 05:19.34 | haseeb_ | yes |
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| 05:48.42 | kshr | hello admin ! How do I communicate with the mentoring organizations ??? |
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| 09:22.50 | Alex11223 | Is there non us students who received prepaid card? (GCI) |
| 09:23.26 | Alex11223 | Should I change phone numbers and email or it also must remain google's? |
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| 09:34.59 | kai | I don't understand why people join here, query all the ops without saying anything useful, without asking anything in the channel and then leaving again |
| 09:35.21 | kai | what communication medium is there where this is a valid way to communicate? |
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| 09:36.00 | kai | Alex11223: I never had such a card, but I'm sure there's some instructions on the bank's homepage |
| 09:38.02 | Alex11223 | yes, there is: "register your card online <...> but do not update the address - it must remain google's address", so I don't understand it means only City/Country Street Address, or also phone and and email |
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| 09:40.41 | kai | ok, sorry, no idea there |
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| 09:41.42 | vinod261 | i want to participate in gsoc |
| 09:42.26 | kai | I guess that describes most of the people in this channel, welcome. :) |
| 09:43.06 | vinod261 | How can we start working with bugs |
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| 09:43.59 | thebolt | hi kai |
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| 09:45.26 | kai | thebolt: hey there |
| 09:45.47 | kai | vinod261: thats a very project-specifc question, I think |
| 09:46.43 | kai | vinod261: but in general, it'll work like this: 1) install software you're interested in, 2) reproduce bug from bug tracker, 3) profit |
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| 09:46.58 | kai | and add in a 0) stay on IRC long enough to get a reply |
| 09:47.12 | kai | grumbles and gets back to work |
| 09:47.30 | thebolt | haha |
| 09:47.33 | thebolt | :) |
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| 09:54.00 | Alex11223 | Looking for non-US students who succesfully received and registred prepaid card :) |
| 09:56.27 | kai | there's a GCI maling list, you'll probably have more luck there |
| 09:56.41 | kai | I don't think there's many GCI students in here now that GCI is over |
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| 10:00.48 | gevaerts | Well, I'm assuming the GCI card is *very* similar to the gsoc card, so former gsoc students might also be able to help |
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| 10:03.09 | Jooles | kai: Don't you just love IRC newbies? |
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| 10:09.00 | kai | Jooles: the thing I wonder about is what communication medium exists that makes this a valid way to interact |
| 10:09.44 | kai | it's like I call you on the phone (caller-id disabled), ask "may I ask you something" and immediately hang up |
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| 10:12.17 | gevaerts | kai: I do that a lot! |
| 10:12.17 | Jooles | kai, I blame texting. People now are so used to being able to fire off a short, poorly formed message/question into the ether and be able to read the reply at their convenience. |
| 10:12.57 | Jooles | IRC is a touch unique though in fairness. You have to be quite verbose and patient and it helps to be able to leave the client open for a long time |
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| 10:13.16 | Jooles | But it feels like it should be very quick because there's hundreds of people there online |
| 10:13.25 | Jooles | I dunno... that's my thoughts anyway :) |
| 10:13.45 | kai | but on twitter there's billions online and I don't get a reply to most of my questions |
| 10:14.01 | kai | I don't see how that numbers game is expected to play out ;) |
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| 10:15.12 | gevaerts | Feeling like you should get a quick reply is unrelated to IRC. It's just normal human attention-craving :) |
| 10:15.42 | Jooles | The unfortunate thing about being an op on a channel like #gsoc I suppose is you can't just reply with a link to a page on irc etiquette and leave it at that until they ask properly :P |
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| 10:58.17 | kai | Jooles: not sure that's part of the ToS that I didn't have to sign when I was made op in here ;) |
| 10:58.32 | kai | Jooles: but it would be a tad impolite, I guess |
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| 11:18.44 | flippingbits | !next |
| 11:18.45 | gsocbot | flippingbits: "next" is Mar 16 - List of accepted mentoring organizations published on the Google Summer of Code 2012 site. |
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| 11:57.50 | thebolt | bah, why does all units have 234234123 configuration settings? takes ages to write code to configure this wireless modem properly.. |
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| 14:25.09 | tomprince | kai: But on twitter you don't need to be signed in to get a response. And the only way somebody who isn't following you is going to see something you write is to direct at them, or a hashtag they watch. |
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| 16:11.27 | v1z | ;-o ZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzzzZZZ |
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| 16:38.12 | Lennie | Good morning carols |
| 16:38.17 | carols | good morning Lennie |
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| 16:43.25 | |Kev| | This is what the students feel while the orgs choose from the applications, isn't it? |
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| 16:43.41 | gevaerts | relaxes by the sidelines :) |
| 16:43.43 | |Kev| | I think I prefer being on the other side :) |
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| 16:43.54 | |Kev| | gevaerts: Not applying this year? |
| 16:44.08 | gevaerts | no |
| 16:44.09 | aghisla | offers cookies |
| 16:44.19 | |Kev| | gevaerts: You're Rockbox aren't you? How come? |
| 16:44.20 | gevaerts | thanks aghisla |
| 16:44.23 | aghisla | cleans the opensource couch from cookie crumbles |
| 16:44.27 | |Kev| | aghisla: Murky buckets. |
| 16:44.49 | gevaerts | |Kev|: not enough motivated people on our side, basically |
| 16:45.30 | |Kev| | I thought we were going to have that problem, then suddenly a whole bunch of people started sorting out the ideas page etc., and things got better. |
| 16:45.42 | gevaerts | And we don't want to waste the google people's time with what we know would be a bad application |
| 16:45.49 | |Kev| | We skipped a year a while back ('09?) though, when we thought we wouldn't have energy. |
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| 16:46.01 | |Kev| | Yeah. |
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| 16:50.06 | varun_s | !next |
| 16:50.08 | gsocbot | varun_s: "next" is Mar 16 - List of accepted mentoring organizations published on the Google Summer of Code 2012 site. |
| 16:50.21 | varun_s | !numapps |
| 16:50.21 | gsocbot | varun_s: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted in 2011; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students, and 1116 were accepted. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted. |
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| 16:57.08 | Taggnostr2 | hello |
| 16:57.19 | carols | hello Taggnostr2 |
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| 17:31.17 | carols | anyone here from plane? |
| 17:31.19 | carols | sorry |
| 17:31.21 | carols | plone |
| 17:31.25 | carols | drinks more coffee |
| 17:32.17 | aghisla | carols: how many people are reviewing the org applications? |
| 17:32.25 | carols | aghisla: on my team? |
| 17:32.29 | aghisla | yes |
| 17:32.41 | carols | 4 |
| 17:32.52 | gevaerts | !stats |
| 17:32.52 | gsocbot | gevaerts: I have 2 registered users with 2 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins. |
| 17:32.56 | gevaerts | hm |
| 17:32.58 | gevaerts | !numapps |
| 17:32.58 | gsocbot | gevaerts: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted in 2011; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students, and 1116 were accepted. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted. |
| 17:34.04 | gevaerts | That's over 100 per person, assuming no discussion (which seems like an obvious false assumption) |
| 17:34.12 | gevaerts | gives carols some more coffee and chocolate |
| 17:34.28 | carols | thanks gevaerts :-) i can use it. |
| 17:34.37 | aghisla | carols: here are more waffles for the team! |
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| 17:40.58 | carols | thanks aghisla :-) |
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| 18:57.34 | o0o0o | _o_o_ oOo _o_o_ |
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| 18:58.05 | carols | o0o0o: thanks for that, but let's keep it on topic to gsoc or i'll have you kicked. |
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| 19:04.28 | o0o0o | carols, no more Pedro totem, understood and thank you too. Anyway, its a 'hello everyone', no more than that :-) |
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| 19:04.39 | carols | great :-) |
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| 19:07.11 | edsiper | !next |
| 19:07.12 | gsocbot | edsiper: "next" is Mar 16 19:00 UTC - List of accepted mentoring organizations published on the Google Summer of Code 2012 site. |
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| 19:16.08 | downey | brews gsoc tea |
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| 19:16.19 | carols | mmm gsoc tea |
| 19:16.24 | carols | made with socks |
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| 19:17.02 | downey | who needs teabags? :) |
| 19:17.22 | carols | indeed :-) |
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| 19:20.35 | LetterRip | !next |
| 19:20.36 | gsocbot | LetterRip: "next" is Mar 16 19:00 UTC - List of accepted mentoring organizations published on the Google Summer of Code 2012 site. |
| 19:20.55 | o0o0o | !later |
| 19:20.56 | gsocbot | o0o0o: "later" is when |
| 19:21.58 | LetterRip | little less than 24 hours to go... |
| 19:22.12 | carols | LetterRip: tell me about it. |
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| 19:22.49 | LetterRip | heheh - poor carols - here is a cookie :) |
| 19:23.03 | carols | thanks LetterRip :-) |
| 19:23.40 | LetterRip | how big a group does the application reviews? |
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| 19:26.50 | LetterRip | off to do something more productive then watch the clock :) ttyl |
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| 19:37.28 | Jooles | Heh, It's making me feel a little better seeing all you guys being so nervous about tomorrow. I've been worrying about tomorrow for like a month :P |
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| 19:37.45 | gevaerts | isn't nervous :) |
| 19:39.23 | Jooles | high-five's gevaerts |
| 19:39.56 | gevaerts | high-fives Jooles |
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| 19:40.01 | gevaerts | This is basically the only week of the year where not participating at all has advantages! |
| 19:40.12 | gevaerts | The rest is no fun, so I'm enjoying the moment :) |
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| 19:40.17 | varunsaraf | !numapp |
| 19:40.17 | gsocbot | varunsaraf: "numapp" is see !numapps |
| 19:40.17 | scorche|sh | =) |
| 19:40.31 | varunsaraf | !numapps |
| 19:40.31 | gsocbot | varunsaraf: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted in 2011; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students, and 1116 were accepted. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted. |
| 19:40.38 | Jooles | gevaerts, Next year maybe |
| 19:40.47 | gevaerts | I hope so |
| 19:44.11 | Jooles | So just to check I got this right. For us students, the list goes up and we go off to reasearch the projects to choose one(s) we're interested in who we then contact to discuss potential ideas right? |
| 19:44.54 | carols | Jooles: yes |
| 19:46.04 | Jooles | carols, Thanks. And do we talk to a few projects or just one or... ? |
| 19:46.10 | carols | Jooles: up to you. |
| 19:46.41 | gevaerts | There's a trade-off to find |
| 19:46.42 | Jooles | And it's one application per idea after that (written up as a project proposal)? |
| 19:46.57 | gevaerts | Technically no, but yes |
| 19:47.14 | Jooles | Technically no? |
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| 19:47.38 | gevaerts | You can write as many proposals as you like (there may be a limit, but if you reach that you're not going to have time to make any of them decent), to as many organisations as you like |
| 19:48.05 | gevaerts | You can propose more than one idea to an organisation, which is fine |
| 19:48.23 | gevaerts | You can technically also propose the same idea to the same organisation twice, but that seems silly |
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| 19:49.05 | Jooles | Right. Thanks you guys. I have very little time right now so I want to make sure I know what I'm going to be doing next week to make the best use of it |
| 19:49.34 | gevaerts | I believe the general advice is to limit yourself to two or three serious applications maximum. You can of course talk to more people and investigate more ideas before that |
| 19:49.45 | gevaerts | Have you had a look at the student guide? |
| 19:50.18 | Jooles | That was the sort of numbers I had in my head. Student guide? I've read the FAQ but I don't know about the guide |
| 19:50.26 | gevaerts | !studentguide | Jooles |
| 19:50.27 | gsocbot | Jooles: "studentguide" is http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
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| 19:51.41 | Jooles | Sweet! Light reading for tonight :) |
| 19:52.20 | gevaerts | Enjoy! :) |
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| 19:53.23 | Jooles | Oh, I will. I've been lapping up every scrap of text I can find about this. Been wanting to do it for years and kept forgetting until like mid April/May which is way too late. I'm determined to get a good entry in this year |
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| 19:57.04 | scorche|sh | Jooles: try to get a few good entries in! ;) |
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| 19:57.38 | Jooles | scorche|sh, Well yeah, that's the plan :) |
| 19:58.39 | Jooles | Is it ok to talk with lecturers about the applications and get their help/feedback? |
| 19:58.51 | carols | Jooles: sure. you can talk to whomever you'd like. |
| 19:59.04 | Jooles | Awesome |
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| 20:00.05 | scorche|sh | Jooles: that is encouraged, even ;) |
| 20:00.21 | gevaerts | Jooles: some organisations also encourage discussing it with them to get feedback |
| 20:01.03 | schumaml | some orgs require that, even |
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| 20:01.40 | gevaerts | In general, *always* talk to organisations as soon as possible |
| 20:02.00 | ubuntu_love | gevaerts: are you a mentor? |
| 20:02.04 | Jooles | I was planning on trying to get the guy who deals with the 3rd year projects to meet with me later on next week. Hopefully by then I'll have draft applications to show him. As for the organisations I'm gonna hit their IRCs tomorrow :). That's why I'm nervous. |
| 20:02.10 | gevaerts | ubuntu_love: not this year |
| 20:02.17 | gevaerts | But I've been one |
| 20:02.39 | ubuntu_love | gevaerts: for which one? |
| 20:02.44 | gevaerts | rockbox |
| 20:03.23 | ubuntu_love | gevaerts: am actually a student. and this is my first year of participation. |
| 20:05.11 | ubuntu_love | gevaerts: in the time line its said 'would-be student participants discuss application ideas with mentoring organization.' whats that acutally. can you please explain? i am new to this.. |
| 20:05.43 | gevaerts | ubuntu_love: have a look at the student guide, at http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
| 20:05.49 | carols | ubuntu_love: you reach out to those orgs you'd like to work with and talk about the project you want to work on. |
| 20:05.50 | gevaerts | It will make a lot of things clear |
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| 20:07.01 | ubuntu_love | carols: but we are supposed to propose our idea only when we register. right? |
| 20:07.22 | carols | ubuntu_love: register? you mean when you create a profile on melange? no, you shouldn't wait that long. |
| 20:07.32 | gevaerts | You can (and should) talk to organisations before your formal proposal |
| 20:07.37 | carols | just start reaching out to the orgs once you know which ones you might want to work with. |
| 20:08.32 | ubuntu_love | carols: so will they give any suggestions or something? |
| 20:08.46 | gevaerts | Some of them will |
| 20:08.49 | carols | ubuntu_love: have you read the student manual gevaerts sent you? |
| 20:09.11 | ubuntu_love | carols: i should.. |
| 20:09.14 | carols | great |
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| 20:09.23 | ubuntu_love | carols: you a mentor? |
| 20:09.32 | carols | ubuntu_love: um, not really. |
| 20:09.37 | Catfish_Man | lol |
| 20:09.49 | gevaerts | ubuntu_love: carols is the only one mentors have to listen to |
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| 20:10.09 | carols | i do try to guide people when i can. |
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| 20:10.15 | carols | most of them don't listen to me though. |
| 20:10.41 | gevaerts | We do, quite often! |
| 20:10.46 | ubuntu_love | but whats wrong in giving guidence, and why dont ppl dont get them |
| 20:10.55 | carols | i find myself repeating things quite often :-) |
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| 20:11.02 | ubuntu_love | if you ask me, only by getting advice and guidence from others we can develope |
| 20:11.05 | carols | like "go read the student manual" we wrote it for you. |
| 20:11.08 | gevaerts | carols: that's why we listen quite often :) |
| 20:11.10 | ubuntu_love | and thats why i dont hesitate to get advice |
| 20:11.18 | carols | gevaerts: fair enough :-) |
| 20:11.24 | v_sindhuja | carlos: would you say i would be starting late if i were to wait for the mentoring organizations list to be out ? |
| 20:11.48 | carols | v_sindhuja: i assume you meant to message me. no, i wouldn't say that's late. but get on it once the list is out. |
| 20:12.16 | v_sindhuja | that's great! thank you ! :) |
| 20:12.22 | carols | yw |
| 20:12.26 | |Kev| | carols: do you ever find you have to repeat yourself? |
| 20:12.39 | carols | |Kev|: i sense a troll coming on. |
| 20:12.59 | gevaerts | You've said that before! |
| 20:13.04 | |Kev| | Haha. |
| 20:13.21 | Jooles | :P |
| 20:13.27 | carols | déjà vu |
| 20:14.14 | ubuntu_love | v_sindhuja: first tym in gsoc rt? |
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| 20:15.14 | v_sindhuja | yep .. |
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| 20:15.57 | alok_s | Hi. Some organizations require ( or prefer) that you submit some patches, fix some bugs before you apply. In that sense, how much are you expected to do? Since we have about a week before the application deadline, Im not sure how much can be done in this week.. |
| 20:16.25 | carols | alok_s: depends on the org. you should speak to them directly about it. |
| 20:16.30 | Catfish_Man | alok_s: since it's a requirement imposed by the organization, nothing really can be said about it in the general case |
| 20:16.30 | JordiGH | What? The aplication deadline is in one week? |
| 20:16.31 | Jooles | alok_s, I would guess a small bugfix is fine. They just want a sample of your work |
| 20:16.32 | gevaerts | alok_s: you have a lot more than a week |
| 20:16.38 | JordiGH | I thought there was more time. |
| 20:16.45 | alok_s | oh ok.. |
| 20:16.50 | alok_s | thx guys.. |
| 20:16.51 | gevaerts | April 6 19:00 UTC |
| 20:17.31 | JordiGH | Is this why we're already getting people asking to work with us before we even get accepted? Because there's someone saying that the deadline is earlier than it is? |
| 20:17.39 | |Kev| | alok_s: As an admin for an org that did this last year, not much is expected for us. We gave out tasks I expected to take around, say, 2-6 hours including getting the software compiled. |
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| 20:17.45 | Jooles | Oh heh. That'll teach me to read the calendar :P. 26th March is application period *start* |
| 20:17.48 | gevaerts | JordiGH: I doubt that. Just enthusiastic people. Be happy! |
| 20:18.18 | Catfish_Man | JordiGH: my take on it is that the community is getting better at parroting the "get involved early!" advice |
| 20:18.23 | Catfish_Man | we may have to start nuancing it a bit at some point |
| 20:18.34 | alok_s | @|Kev| thx for that. I guess talking to individual organizations would clarify this more.. |
| 20:18.43 | |Kev| | Every org is different. |
| 20:18.57 | gevaerts | Catfish_Man: Yes. Maybe next year we have to kick everyone out we heard about more than one hour before the deadline! |
| 20:19.02 | summatusmentis | Catfish_Man: no, earlier the better |
| 20:19.11 | JordiGH | I'm just a little skittish about telling people to work if we're a new org and we haven't even gotten accepted yet. |
| 20:19.19 | JordiGH | I feel like they may be disappointed. |
| 20:19.24 | Catfish_Man | ^that |
| 20:19.28 | summatusmentis | The only way to participate is if you're submitting applications before GSoC has been announced |
| 20:19.52 | |Kev| | JordiGH: Yeah, that's a risk, but equally any time they spend is likely to be productive anyway - as long as the students know we're not accepted orgs yet. |
| 20:20.15 | |Kev| | If a student asked me if they could write a patch preemptively, I'd make sure they knew it was premptive and then think it was great. |
| 20:20.19 | gevaerts | thinks we should probably stop confusing the new people who have no idea which of those statements are jokes :) |
| 20:20.21 | JordiGH | Oh, I don't mind their productivity. I just don't want them to be disappointed if they were expecting to get money out of it, and they don't. |
| 20:20.35 | summatusmentis | gevaerts: *sigh* fine |
| 20:20.39 | |Kev| | JordiGH: Right. |
| 20:20.52 | |Kev| | JordiGH: But I don't think you have to feel bad if the student does this eyes-open. |
| 20:21.10 | |Kev| | For one thing, you'd probably put in a good word with an org that *is* accepted anyway, right? |
| 20:21.14 | JordiGH | We've only gotten maybe 3 or 4 early birds. |
| 20:21.38 | JordiGH | No! My pre-emptive students! Mine! |
| 20:21.50 | |Kev| | My precious? |
| 20:21.55 | JordiGH | Yesssss |
| 20:22.22 | Jooles | backs away slowly, hiding his campus card |
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| 20:25.31 | Jooles | Well, silliness is great but I have chores. Later you guys |
| 20:25.40 | |Kev| | Bibi. |
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| 20:37.22 | sfb | gevaerts: Rockbox didn't apply this year? |
| 20:37.28 | gevaerts | no |
| 20:37.47 | sfb | Can I ask why? |
| 20:37.50 | gevaerts | Not enough interest on our side |
| 20:37.59 | pc_magas | As I knos GNU && Suse have applied |
| 20:38.06 | sfb | Gotcha. Are you mentoring somewhere else? |
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| 20:38.41 | gevaerts | No. I'm out this year. I don't really do anything elsewhere |
| 20:39.01 | sfb | No gevaerts at the Mentor Summit? It's just not going to be the same. |
| 20:39.12 | gevaerts | Why, do you need someone to go to the mentor summit for you? :) |
| 20:39.26 | sfb | hahah |
| 20:39.37 | gevaerts | might be convinced to do that :) |
| 20:39.39 | sfb | No, it's just always a pleasure to chat with you there. |
| 20:40.57 | gevaerts | is disappointed now! |
| 20:41.14 | sfb | haha |
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| 20:42.02 | sfb | Welp, time to go home. Taking my daughter out for her birthday. She's 3 and the only thing she wants is "baskgetti" |
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| 20:42.15 | gevaerts | Have fun! |
| 20:43.14 | pc_magas | Tomorrow we will see who will mentror us in gsoc |
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| 21:01.51 | JordiGH | carols: It just occurred to me that you probably get hundreds of emails per day relating to GSoC? |
| 21:02.03 | carols | JordiGH: about 300, to be exact. |
| 21:02.17 | JordiGH | :O |
| 21:02.32 | JordiGH | What fortitude... |
| 21:02.36 | burcin | with the mailing lists or just personal emails? |
| 21:02.38 | carols | and people still send me emails asking why i haven't responded in 24 hours. |
| 21:02.39 | JordiGH | Do you respond to all or most? |
| 21:02.44 | carols | i respond to them all. |
| 21:02.59 | JordiGH | What about when people are downright rude or incomprehensible? |
| 21:03.02 | Catfish_Man | the responding to them all is the killer part. I get more mail than that, but I ignore 90% of it ;) |
| 21:03.14 | JordiGH | You must have some canned response system in place... |
| 21:03.18 | carols | nope. |
| 21:03.27 | JordiGH | You type out 300 responses per day? |
| 21:03.29 | carols | i respond individually to each one. |
| 21:03.31 | carols | i do. |
| 21:03.36 | carols | give or take. some weeks more, some weeks less |
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| 21:03.44 | carols | depending on what's going on with gsoc |
| 21:07.23 | JordiGH | Of course this is all you do at Google? GSoc? |
| 21:07.41 | carols | JordiGH: i also handle the melange development. |
| 21:07.47 | carols | but yes, gsoc is my primary project. |
| 21:08.23 | carols | i was also managing google code-in, but stephanie has since taken that over |
| 21:08.28 | carols | so i have more time now. |
| 21:10.49 | edsiper | and i think that this is a low traffic period... imagine when students are applying.. |
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| 21:16.21 | kblin | well, I've got the impression carol got a lot of "oh, I missed the deadline to apply as a project, can I still join"-emails lately |
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| 21:19.59 | dberkholz | carols: i am intrigued that you actually tracked the numbers |
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| 21:20.12 | carols | dberkholz: i have to for our performance reviews. |
| 21:20.34 | carols | when the students are first accepted and submitting their documents I send upwards of 500 emails a day |
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| 21:20.55 | dberkholz | interesting |
| 21:21.13 | dberkholz | suppose you'd get different information from initial replies, vs ongoing threads, vs you being the initial sender |
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| 21:21.44 | dberkholz | carols: btw, surprised to not see you at pycon |
| 21:22.02 | carols | dberkholz: i don't really go to the language-specific cons, usually |
| 21:22.19 | Catfish_Man | carols: reminds me of the poor program office people here. Shortly before our most recent developer seed I got a *very* terse email from one of them, with a followup an hour later saying "...er, add "please" to that. Sorry about that, I've sent 900 emails today and am kind of out of it". O_O |
| 21:22.30 | dberkholz | carols: you'll be excited to know, then, that there was a gsoc bof initiated by someone besides you =) |
| 21:22.37 | Catfish_Man | best excuse for rude emails I've heard so far |
| 21:22.39 | carols | Catfish_Man: yeah, i've had a couple of those myself. |
| 21:22.47 | carols | dberkholz: wow! that's awesome to hear :-) |
| 21:22.58 | *** join/#gsoc pokoko222 (~chatzilla@77.29.135.38) |
| 21:23.04 | pokoko222 | 21 hours left :D |
| 21:23.12 | micole | :D |
| 21:23.21 | carols | pokoko222: tell me about it. |
| 21:23.30 | pokoko222 | my pants are already wet |
| 21:24.03 | pokoko222 | I am scared though, that I won't be able to code something |
| 21:24.15 | pokoko222 | they give you big projects and help you little |
| 21:24.17 | pokoko222 | scary |
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| 21:24.44 | carols | pokoko222: if they only help you little they're doing it wrong and i'd like to hear about it. |
| 21:24.46 | pokoko222 | not to mention they did not have documentation :D |
| 21:25.14 | carols | we choose organizations we trust to be very hands-on with mentor time and attention within the community. |
| 21:25.17 | micole | Well this would be my first gsoc that i try to participate in, but I think i'll do fine :P |
| 21:25.31 | micole | pokoko222, so you should too |
| 21:25.38 | pokoko222 | micole you are already enrolled in some project? |
| 21:25.39 | gevaerts | carols: this might have been a qualification task to see how far they got without help |
| 21:25.50 | carols | gevaerts: ah, i see. |
| 21:26.01 | micole | pokoko222, not open source one yet. just a lot of school ones that I have done |
| 21:26.21 | pokoko222 | micole same situation here but still I am scared, you think you will be able to code something? |
| 21:26.26 | pokoko222 | we got like 20 days to 6 april |
| 21:26.48 | carols | pokoko222: have you already reached out to the org? |
| 21:26.58 | pokoko222 | the project I tried to get in hedgewars... they did not have documentation and when I asked someone to help me I did not get much answer |
| 21:27.07 | pokoko222 | so I quit that |
| 21:27.28 | gevaerts | How did you ask for help? IRC? |
| 21:27.33 | pokoko222 | yes |
| 21:27.51 | pokoko222 | you cant get to code there, especially the AI part unless someone helps you |
| 21:27.53 | JordiGH | Huh, the Hedgewars guys are kewl. |
| 21:28.01 | JordiGH | They didn't respond? |
| 21:28.04 | pokoko222 | I mean, they dont have one line of documentation |
| 21:28.09 | gevaerts | Did you wait long enough? IRC is a bit funny, in that you can easily get an answer several hours after you ask |
| 21:28.20 | edsiper | pokoko222, mailing list ? |
| 21:28.25 | pokoko222 | I literally banged my head for 3-4 days trying to learn just one function |
| 21:28.28 | gevaerts | This also depends on timezones |
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| 21:28.47 | micole | pokoko222, trying to learn one of their functions? |
| 21:29.14 | pokoko222 | I wanted to do AI work, which I already have done lots myself, but could not get in their code |
| 21:29.31 | pokoko222 | the author was not much in the mood to give out details |
| 21:29.43 | pokoko222 | so I wasted days and finally I quit |
| 21:29.45 | JordiGH | Literally? |
| 21:29.54 | JordiGH | Did you have a doctor look at that? |
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| 21:30.18 | pokoko222 | JordiGH: come on I am not in the mood for jokes, I am seriously disapointed |
| 21:30.26 | pokoko222 | could have spent that time on else |
| 21:30.28 | dberkholz | that reminds me of how long it took me to figure stuff out back when i was learning how to write code |
| 21:30.44 | JordiGH | pokoko222: A few days trying to figure out one function doesn't seem that bad. |
| 21:30.51 | JordiGH | Most code is undocumented. |
| 21:31.06 | pokoko222 | yeah but I was not going far |
| 21:31.20 | JordiGH | Did you start to get a feel for the functions around it? |
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| 21:31.30 | pokoko222 | I even wrote pseudo code for a weapon and asked someone to help me implement it... they were not much intrested |
| 21:32.03 | JordiGH | Did you also try mailing lists? |
| 21:32.09 | pokoko222 | what about the mailing list? |
| 21:32.17 | pokoko222 | isnt irc the main thing? |
| 21:32.20 | JordiGH | Did you show your example code on the mailing list? |
| 21:32.25 | JordiGH | Sometimes, but not usually. |
| 21:32.28 | gevaerts | That depends on the organisation |
| 21:32.29 | edsiper | pokoko222, mailing list |
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| 21:32.32 | pokoko222 | just on irc and just one guy saw it :) |
| 21:32.36 | kblin | dberkholz: hey there. so how's life as a coloured monk? |
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| 21:32.43 | JordiGH | Mailing lists are usually the "official" avenue for communication. |
| 21:32.45 | edsiper | pokoko222, if you are in a different timezone sometimes IRC does not help too much |
| 21:32.48 | JordiGH | IRC is for quick dev talk. |
| 21:32.50 | JordiGH | Usually. |
| 21:32.54 | gevaerts | How do you know that one guy was even seriously involved? |
| 21:32.58 | pokoko222 | I will keep that in mind thank you |
| 21:33.11 | kblin | pokoko222: so one guy wasn't interested in helping you, and you quit the project? |
| 21:33.30 | pokoko222 | well then I asked the author himself too he was on irc, and he was not much into it |
| 21:33.38 | pokoko222 | I was basically left to find my own way |
| 21:33.43 | schumaml | http://www.hedgewars.org/contact.html -> "You can send emails to the official Hedgewars Development Mailing List where all developers and contributors can read your message" |
| 21:33.50 | gevaerts | IRC is great if you get a good response, but there are *many* reasons why you might not get any |
| 21:34.02 | dberkholz | kblin: i'm becoming increasingly familiar with planes, hotels, and convention centers |
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| 21:34.33 | gevaerts | There are also such things as bad times and people accessing irc from phones in spare moments. It can be hard to respond properly, and easy to give the impression you don't care |
| 21:34.36 | gevaerts | That |
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| 21:34.40 | gevaerts | 's a lot better with mailing lists |
| 21:34.48 | gevaerts | But they *are* slower |
| 21:34.55 | pokoko222 | yeah but the author himself was on irc |
| 21:35.02 | JordiGH | And slowness is a good thing. |
| 21:35.03 | kblin | dberkholz: so much I gathered from your twitter :) |
| 21:35.08 | pokoko222 | and he was not much into helping, and he only knew the AI code |
| 21:35.18 | JordiGH | People usually write more thoughtful emails than the usual drunken ravings of IRC. |
| 21:35.40 | pokoko222 | either way I will see the orgs tomorow and try other orgs |
| 21:35.45 | Catfish_Man | JordiGH: for Adium at least, I found the opposite to be true. Mailing list threads tended to go off into the weeds, while IRC was productive |
| 21:35.48 | Catfish_Man | but I think we were unusual that way |
| 21:35.57 | kblin | JordiGH: but occifer, I'm not as think as you drunk I am |
| 21:35.59 | JordiGH | pokoko222: What point are you trying to make? That the author himself doesn't care about the code, so nobody else does? |
| 21:36.06 | gevaerts | pokoko222: but *why* was he not much into helping? Maybe he had to leave to get his kids from school or something... |
| 21:36.17 | pokoko222 | JordiGH no but only he knew that code |
| 21:36.22 | pokoko222 | so if he was not into helping then... |
| 21:36.35 | gevaerts | Was that code on their ideas list? |
| 21:36.38 | JordiGH | pokoko222: So see if someone else knows that code. |
| 21:36.51 | pokoko222 | nope, he was the guy |
| 21:37.01 | pokoko222 | gevaerts: yes of course it was on the list |
| 21:37.11 | kblin | pokoko222: of course it's your spare time.. our point mainly is that other people have some life beyond OSS as well |
| 21:37.16 | pokoko222 | I even told them I had projects for AI like AI soccer simulation and stuff |
| 21:37.21 | pokoko222 | you could judge by that I can code |
| 21:37.54 | pokoko222 | anyways I will be looking out for other orgs, I have projects in image processing and computational geometry |
| 21:37.57 | pokoko222 | will try some of that |
| 21:38.02 | pokoko222 | had no luck with games |
| 21:38.03 | dberkholz | kblin: but lots of fun learning about the business side of tech |
| 21:38.14 | JordiGH | pokoko222: I think you gave up too earl. |
| 21:38.15 | JordiGH | y |
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| 21:38.33 | pokoko222 | JordiGH: 3 days on one function :D come on |
| 21:38.40 | JordiGH | Yes, that's nothing. |
| 21:38.50 | JordiGH | I've spent far more time than that understanding some functions. |
| 21:38.55 | schumaml | pokoko222: out of ucuriosity, do you rememeber which function? |
| 21:39.04 | pokoko222 | schumaml: the bazooka test |
| 21:39.27 | JordiGH | pokoko222: Where is it? File and line, I mean. |
| 21:39.32 | schumaml | http://code.google.com/p/hedgewars/source/browse/ |
| 21:39.44 | JordiGH | hopes that's not svn... |
| 21:40.00 | JordiGH | Ooh, hg! |
| 21:40.01 | JordiGH | <3 |
| 21:40.02 | JordiGH | <<<<<<# |
| 21:40.05 | JordiGH | <<<3 |
| 21:40.05 | pokoko222 | http://code.google.com/p/hedgewars/source/browse/hedgewars/uAIAmmoTests.pas line 125 |
| 21:40.09 | gevaerts | pokoko222: how often and at how diverse times did you try to get help on irc? I'm not saying you should try again, you've had some bad experiences after all, but this might still just be a case of getting people at a bad time |
| 21:41.11 | JordiGH | Huh, is this Pascal? |
| 21:41.12 | JordiGH | Cute. |
| 21:41.35 | kblin | there's still people using pascal? |
| 21:41.54 | pokoko222 | yep :D |
| 21:42.03 | pokoko222 | language is not the problem though |
| 21:42.12 | pokoko222 | it's just language |
| 21:42.16 | kblin | right |
| 21:42.33 | JordiGH | This code seems pretty readable... |
| 21:42.44 | JordiGH | I can guess what most of the variables mean. |
| 21:43.37 | gevaerts | Pascal confuses me with its lack of required parentheses after function calls without arguments |
| 21:43.50 | JordiGH | gevaerts: Octave is like that too. |
| 21:44.03 | gevaerts | I *like* seeing if something is a variable or a function :) |
| 21:44.08 | JordiGH | Perl confuses me more where all parens in function calls are completely optional. |
| 21:44.24 | pokoko222 | JordiGH: you can guess? Ok now go and "actually" implement something |
| 21:44.36 | pokoko222 | I can guess lot of things too but ... :D |
| 21:45.00 | JordiGH | pokoko222: This seems to just be code the AI uses to decide if it should attempt a bazooka shot or not. |
| 21:45.06 | JordiGH | What do you want me to implement about it? |
| 21:46.07 | pokoko222 | haha ok you make it so simple it is not like that |
| 21:46.27 | JordiGH | Well, it's not unreadable. |
| 21:46.32 | JordiGH | It's not like.... J. |
| 21:46.50 | JordiGH | Have you tried to read J's source code? It appears to be obfuscated, but it's just the style the dude who writes J likes. |
| 21:47.48 | pokoko222 | I am not complaining about readability but without help from the author you are lost here |
| 21:48.06 | JordiGH | Eh, I can see a few places I could modify the computation of the path. |
| 21:48.25 | JordiGH | But what was your goal in reading this code? |
| 21:48.53 | pokoko222 | to understand it in detail |
| 21:49.07 | pokoko222 | and after that write my own function for another weapon |
| 21:49.14 | pokoko222 | because the AI does not use all weapons now |
| 21:49.30 | pokoko222 | well after that also, learn some more of those test function |
| 21:49.36 | JordiGH | You might be spending too much time understanding details that don't matter. |
| 21:49.43 | pokoko222 | my logic was If I could find my way with one of these, I could learn the rest too |
| 21:49.52 | JordiGH | I think this function is in place to check if it should attempt a bazooka shot or not. |
| 21:50.07 | JordiGH | Who calls it? There must be another location in general where the AI attempts each weapon. |
| 21:50.13 | pokoko222 | yes but that is not enough for you to go and write similar function for another weapon |
| 21:50.21 | JordiGH | So find where this function is being called from.. |
| 21:50.51 | JordiGH | And try stepping through the code with a debugger. |
| 21:50.59 | *** join/#gsoc lfz (~chatzilla@143.54.12.193) |
| 21:51.18 | JordiGH | Find where the AI is computing its moves, set a breakpoint there... start playing... |
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| 21:51.35 | JordiGH | Wait to hit the breakpoint, and start seeing the codepath it follows. |
| 21:52.00 | pokoko222 | ok that is a good idea... |
| 21:53.28 | gevaerts | Also change bits and see if you can predict what will happen |
| 21:54.30 | pokoko222 | gotta go for now cya guys later ;) |
| 21:54.47 | pokoko222 | thank you for the conversation, it was productive |
| 21:54.58 | pokoko222 | I might even give hedgewars a second try |
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| 21:57.18 | JordiGH | stops reading Hedgewars code... |
| 21:57.27 | gevaerts | JordiGH: I think it's sometimes easy to forget what it was like the first time you tried to find your way in a big program |
| 21:57.43 | JordiGH | I find my way in big programs all the time. |
| 21:57.48 | gevaerts | Oh, sure |
| 21:57.53 | gevaerts | But there was a first time :) |
| 21:57.53 | JordiGH | And I'm confused and frustrated every time. :-) |
| 21:58.25 | gevaerts | tends to be reasonably good at guessing which bit to change without even trying to understand the code |
| 21:58.25 | kblin | actually, the WTFs/min are way worse at work than during my open source work |
| 21:58.39 | JordiGH | I don't know, ever since I was a kid, I was ok with frustration with mathematical problems. I'm less patient with people, but I have all of the patience of the world to understand mathematics and code. |
| 21:59.55 | kblin | but wrapping my head around wine to understand where and how to integrate the NTLMSSP code, that _was_ frustrating |
| 22:00.32 | JordiGH | Ah, MSFT products. The bits of code from Redmond I've seen have always been unsatisfying. |
| 22:00.50 | kblin | I haven't seen code from redmont |
| 22:01.04 | kblin | I was working on Wine for GSoC 2005 at that time |
| 22:03.17 | gevaerts | That code tried to *emulate* being from Redmond. That's the same thing, surely? ;) |
| 22:05.33 | variable | gevaerts: I'm both a variable and a function |
| 22:05.57 | gevaerts | variable: yes, but I don't have to try to understand you :) |
| 22:06.18 | kblin | gevaerts: well, it's the same crappy API |
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| 22:11.02 | gevaerts | kblin: so after that you went on to speaking their network protocol? |
| 22:11.57 | kblin | gevaerts: much better... I just need to need to produce the same output on the wire and can make my API look sane |
| 22:12.09 | gevaerts | nods |
| 22:13.19 | kblin | can still be painful, but much less than being stuck in the horrid world of camel-cased hungarian notation variables and 25-parameter functions that try to do 5 things at the same time |
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| 23:53.09 | abma | !next |
| 23:53.10 | gsocbot | abma: "next" is Mar 16 19:00 UTC - List of accepted mentoring organizations published on the Google Summer of Code 2012 site. |