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| 01:40.10 | luizribeiro | anyone here ever had to fill a background check form with previous employment information? I am unsure on how I should mention my GSoC'11 participation as a student. the form asks for the name, country/state/city and phone number of the employer. what would you guys suggest in this case? |
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| 01:53.50 | ejls | luizribeiro: it has been suggested on the mailing list to write the informations of the organisation you're working for and not the ones of google. |
| 01:54.13 | billybob | !logs |
| 01:54.13 | gsocbot | billybob: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
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| 02:13.17 | LetterRip | hi all we had to switch mentors for a student since the primary mentor wws having communication dificulties. so who doescthe eval? and who should the studentveval. and is there anything i need to do in melange? |
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| 02:19.03 | meflin | hmm so admins do not see student evails? |
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| 02:25.53 | LetterRip | meflin would appear that we cant |
| 02:26.07 | argonel | of course you can't |
| 02:26.56 | LetterRip | argonel in past years we could |
| 02:27.18 | LetterRip | and we can see the mentor evals |
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| 02:27.51 | LetterRip | so not 'of course' |
| 02:28.52 | argonel | i'd have to say the visibility of the previous evals was a mistake.. how are you to get a truthful answer from a student if they know there can be repercussions from their mentor or organisation? |
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| 02:29.45 | ejls | The FAQ still states that student evals are visible to org admins. |
| 02:30.06 | ejls | (but not to mentors, except when the mentor is also the org admin) |
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| 02:34.32 | meflin | now sure how else I can get feedback on my mentors as an admin |
| 02:34.40 | meflin | perhaps when the window closes |
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| 03:48.36 | nischayn22 | the buttons don't appear on my evaluations page, how am I supposed to fill it :p |
| 03:48.58 | nischayn22 | my javascript is on btw |
| 03:49.03 | somaen | You have the full week to do it |
| 03:49.06 | somaen | no rush |
| 03:49.20 | somaen | or "full", until Friday as the calendar says |
| 03:49.27 | meflin | + you are not stating mentor or student |
| 03:50.15 | nischayn22 | it showed up this time :) |
| 03:50.24 | nischayn22 | student |
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| 04:09.04 | nischayn22 | Is there a way for the student to know that his mentor submits the evaluations or should he just keep asking him all the time? |
| 04:09.41 | scorche | not really |
| 04:09.49 | scorche | dont nag though ;) |
| 04:10.28 | nischayn22 | There isn't much of time given :p |
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| 08:28.24 | kai | sfb: ping. :) can you give your mentors a heads up about the mid-terms? |
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| 12:17.49 | sfb | kai: pong. alraedy done. need to chat with you guys when you're not busy. |
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| 12:48.35 | nihathrael | ok here's a question everyone, how much good will must I show to a student. We have a case where we a) have quite a few language barrier problems and most importantly b) we have the feeling he is not b1) investing enough time b2) not thinking into the problem properly, as even after almost all of midterm it still feels like we are doing allthe thinking |
| 12:49.24 | MatthewWilkes | nihathrael: You don't have to show any |
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| 12:49.47 | MatthewWilkes | nihathrael: Have you discussed the problems with him? |
| 12:50.24 | nihathrael | we have told him many times that we think and expect him to invest more time into the project |
| 12:50.33 | nihathrael | and also that he should try to think through problems a little more thoroughly |
| 12:50.40 | nihathrael | especialyl because most of them are not exactly difficult |
| 12:51.29 | |Kev| | nihathrael: You don't need to show much in the way of goodwill. You do need to show appropriate support, natch. |
| 12:51.58 | MatthewWilkes | nihathrael: And you think he's not making a best effort attempt to address your concerns? |
| 12:52.10 | MatthewWilkes | nihathrael: Do you know how many hours a week he's spending on the project? |
| 12:52.25 | nihathrael | MatthewWilkes: no I don't think so. The problems are to small to take a week to find the problem |
| 12:52.45 | nihathrael | no I don't know that exactly |
| 12:52.46 | |Kev| | nihathrael: Does he tell you what he's been doing in your daily meetings? |
| 12:52.55 | nihathrael | yes, he is sending status reports |
| 12:53.19 | nihathrael | he is clearly doing something, but from my point of view it just feels like he works 1 or 2 hours a day |
| 12:53.23 | |Kev| | Well, I'm assuming you're having daily discussions with him, rather than just having him send stuff to you? |
| 12:53.31 | nihathrael | yes |
| 12:53.38 | nihathrael | that also |
| 12:54.10 | |Kev| | Have you been agreeing timescales with him, and updating them? |
| 12:54.46 | nihathrael | yes, he is behind his timeplan and has quite often not met his weekly goals |
| 12:54.56 | |Kev| | (e.g. how long will it take you to solve $PROMBLEM) |
| 12:55.04 | nihathrael | yes |
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| 12:55.47 | |Kev| | Does he give reasonable explanations why he's not been able to meet his estimates? |
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| 12:56.02 | nihathrael | usually it is that he couldn't figure out some problem |
| 12:56.14 | kai | hey alriddoch :) |
| 12:56.23 | alriddoch | hi kai! |
| 12:56.29 | nihathrael | which would be totally ok, if I could even remotely see how it could ahve taken him 3 days to work on these problems |
| 12:57.33 | |Kev| | I've just had it pointed out to me in a PM that I'm giving you a "Are you sure you don't just suck at your job?" interrogation. Which isn't quite true - but if you've covered all your bases you can't reasonably do more. |
| 12:58.04 | nihathrael | |Kev|: you can totally do that, I will be more than happy if I find a point where I can improve what we do |
| 12:58.45 | |Kev| | And I've pretty much run out of things. |
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| 12:59.10 | kai | nihathrael: ok, so basically it really seems like you've done all you could |
| 12:59.49 | |Kev| | Personally I wouldn't fail a student for not being able to make progress because the problems are hard - but I would if they can't solve the problems because they're not trying to. |
| 13:00.17 | |Kev| | (And I suspect many mentors would fail a student for not being able to do the work even if they were trying hard) |
| 13:00.27 | nihathrael | the thing is that his mentor really put alot of effort into discussing issues with him, even point out issues to solve. And still it took the student a week to find out that the problems pointed out in the beginning are really problems and then b asically starting from scratch |
| 13:00.55 | nihathrael | on problems that are really not to difficult to do |
| 13:01.08 | |Kev| | Does the student know that failing is an option at this point? |
| 13:01.58 | nihathrael | i'm not sure his mentor has explicitly told him, but judging from our behaviour, e.g. telling him to do more basically for over 2 weeks every second day and now even mentoring him with 3 people instead of 1 could have given him a good hint |
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| 13:02.18 | |Kev| | One would hope. |
| 13:02.32 | nihathrael | currently my idea is to have a skype meeting with him and try to see if that brings up something useful |
| 13:02.49 | |Kev| | I can't think of any more you can reasonably do. |
| 13:03.03 | |Kev| | Yes, that might help - assuming language isn't a problem. |
| 13:03.06 | nihathrael | skype or not I am going to tell him failing is an option in clear words today, even though there is not much he can do about it |
| 13:03.28 | |Kev| | I think I'd be most worried if you say "failing is an option" and suddenly stuff gets done. |
| 13:03.37 | |Kev| | Given what that implies :) |
| 13:03.44 | kai | which is a bad indicator |
| 13:03.47 | nihathrael | good point |
| 13:03.55 | nihathrael | maybe it's a good idea afterall |
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| 13:04.18 | kai | nihathrael: actually, if you tell the student that failing is an option and suddenly stuff gets done, you might want to consider failing him still |
| 13:04.28 | |Kev| | kai: Yes, that's what I was saying. |
| 13:04.32 | nihathrael | yes, of course |
| 13:04.39 | nihathrael | there is only 3 days left anyway |
| 13:05.41 | nihathrael | besides the point that mentoring is taking a lot of time with very few output here, what most worries me is that other people on the team are getting frustrated a bit |
| 13:06.07 | |Kev| | I might try, if you haven't yet "What will you have done by tomorrow?" (specifically a one-day timeframe), but this is really scraping the barrel. |
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| 13:06.51 | kai | nihathrael: you're of course onto something there |
| 13:06.52 | |Kev| | And it's hard to see what the student could do that would make you think "Oh, you know, we shouldn't fail him" at this point. |
| 13:07.24 | kai | nihathrael: the goal of gsoc is getting long-term contributors, but not at the cost of burning your existing contributors |
| 13:07.37 | nihathrael | kai: yea exactly |
| 13:07.56 | |Kev| | Mentoring taking a lot of time if you're unlucky is the price of doing business - but if the atmosphere caused by this is causing your other contributors some sort of ~harm, there's a problem. |
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| 13:08.05 | kai | also, the experience from all the mentor summits I attended was that students who barely made the mid-term don't tend to improve later in the project |
| 13:08.12 | |Kev| | Right, kai did that somewhat more eloquently :) |
| 13:08.27 | nihathrael | yea, that's what I took from last years as well |
| 13:08.36 | |Kev| | I must try and get to this year's. |
| 13:08.44 | |Kev| | Must must must. I keep sucking at arranging it. |
| 13:09.03 | MatthewWilkes | The problem is, you'll be looking for reasons to keep the student on. You need to be strong and evaluate him honestly on his performance, not on what he says his intentions are |
| 13:09.12 | MatthewWilkes | I wish I were going this year1 |
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| 13:10.08 | |Kev| | The only remaining question I guess is - did you have teaser tasks and how did he do? |
| 13:10.16 | gevaerts | MatthewWilkes: you can go in my place! |
| 13:10.46 | nihathrael | he was doing quite ok on the tasks before gsoc, we had everyone work on tickets before we even considered them |
| 13:10.49 | MatthewWilkes | gevaerts: Are you not going? And, no, I couldn't, I'm just a user! |
| 13:10.59 | nihathrael | but it was definitely not thebest performance we have seen, but ok |
| 13:11.32 | gevaerts | MatthewWilkes: well, we're not in either. My place wouldn't buy you much :) |
| 13:11.43 | |Kev| | nihathrael: Then something's up, and I doubt you're going to find out what (freeloading is an option I guess). Sorry for your loss. |
| 13:12.20 | nihathrael | so it really looks like I have to fail 1 of 3 students, hm |
| 13:12.41 | |Kev| | Well, can you come up with any scenario in which this student passes the final? |
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| 13:13.06 | |Kev| | Your description doesn't make it seem likely, and if they're not going to pass the finals... |
| 13:13.12 | nihathrael | unless he clearly picks up speed and starts inhaling is tasks and putting a lot more thought into it, probably not |
| 13:13.38 | |Kev| | Can you find any way in which the student's failure is down to you/org sucking? |
| 13:13.53 | MatthewWilkes | gevaerts: Ah, you aren't? Boo! |
| 13:13.59 | |Kev| | We haven't yet :) |
| 13:14.41 | nihathrael | there is always the possibility of course that mentoring didn't work out perfectly, maybe their personalities didn't match or what not |
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| 13:15.05 | nihathrael | we've put him in teem meeting, required daily status mails, he's on irc all day, as are we. I'd say he is quite bound into the community |
| 13:15.11 | |Kev| | There is - but that makes the process unpleasant, it shouldn't (expect in a really extreme case) cause the sort of lack of output you've been describing. |
| 13:16.04 | nihathrael | he's also been working on non coding tasks such as finding looking for places to recruit artists and such |
| 13:16.10 | nihathrael | but even here he did not really shine |
| 13:17.16 | |Kev| | And GSoC's not a bout non-coding tasks anyway. |
| 13:17.24 | |Kev| | - |
| 13:17.26 | nihathrael | yes, it was his free decision |
| 13:18.01 | nihathrael | and also not improtant for what we are talking about now |
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| 13:19.20 | |Kev| | FWIW, we have weekly meetings for all students, where I ask each student in turn whether they have any non-coding issues that are/could prevent them making progress. So if any student isn't making progress, I wouldn't feel too bad failing them if they've not used any of the interim chances to say they've got an issue (and they can say such things in private if they want to, natch). |
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| 13:19.34 | |Kev| | I don't know if you have something similar or think it's a good idea. |
| 13:19.48 | |Kev| | (Or if your org is of a size where it's feasible) |
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| 13:19.59 | nihathrael | we have as I said daily sattus mails, consisting of: what did I do yesterday, what am I planning for today, what are my blockers |
| 13:20.16 | nihathrael | and we have a weekly meeting, where every student has to present his current progress and talk about issues |
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| 13:20.27 | |Kev| | Right - I'm not suggesting you're doing something wrong :) |
| 13:20.49 | nihathrael | so + private talk on mail and query, i'd sure hope that is enough to tell us if there is a problem |
| 13:20.58 | |Kev| | I was just suggesting something I do that might make me feel better about failing a student the next time I have to (the key thing is that they students can say something to someone who isn't their mentor). |
| 13:21.14 | |Kev| | The student clearly has had enough chance to tell you if there's a problem :) |
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| 13:23.00 | nihathrael | ok thanks for your input everyone, i'll try the skype idea and if nothing super unexpected comes up i guess we'll have to fail him |
| 13:23.07 | nihathrael | as bad as it may feel |
| 13:23.21 | |Kev| | I've not had to fail someone for a few years, thankfully. It felt wretched. |
| 13:24.55 | nihathrael | yea it's been giving me a headache for the past days |
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| 13:33.37 | |Kev| | I sympathise. |
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| 13:50.26 | kai | nihathrael: it's never fun to fail a student, but sometimes it's necessary |
| 13:51.21 | kai | nihathrael: and "student underperfoming because he's got another job" was the main cause for us |
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| 13:54.27 | |Kev| | kai: At least in that case it has to suck much less. |
| 13:54.50 | |Kev| | Rather than "Why is this student failing? I need to fail them, but ... why?" |
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| 13:55.27 | sharvey | s/why?/why??????/ |
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| 13:59.34 | MatthewWilkes | sharvey: \?? ;) |
| 13:59.58 | sharvey | my excuse is that I just woke up |
| 14:00.19 | sharvey | and as soon as I say that my alarm goes off |
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| 14:02.20 | meflin | you dont need to be awake to be on irc :D |
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| 14:47.33 | dpac | What should I answer to "Is this your first time applying to participate in Google Summer of Code?*" if I've applied last year but didn't get selected? |
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| 14:48.50 | MatthewWilkes | dpac: 'No' |
| 14:48.53 | Calcs88 | what else do I need to do other than answer the evaluation questions? |
| 14:49.38 | Calcs88 | something was mentioned about a file for evaluation |
| 14:49.46 | dpac | MatthewWilkes: So what do I answer to "How many years have you participated in Google Summer of Code? (Total - this doesn't have to be consecutive.) *" |
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| 14:50.20 | nihathrael | 1 |
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| 14:51.14 | dpac | Thanks nihathrael, MatthewWilkes |
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| 14:55.39 | MatthewWilkes | carols! |
| 14:56.07 | carols | MatthewWilkes! |
| 14:56.53 | kai | hey carols |
| 14:56.59 | carols | hey kai |
| 14:57.11 | kai | carols: do you happen to know if melange sent any notifications to mentors about the mid-term evals? |
| 14:57.22 | carols | kai: not yet. it will on thursday. |
| 14:57.25 | carols | and then again on friday. |
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| 15:03.51 | kai | ah, ok |
| 15:04.05 | kai | I've been poking my mentors and they all acted surprised. |
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| 15:04.13 | kai | anyway, off to theatre.. :) |
| 15:04.50 | naman22 | some guys are claiming that they have cleared mid term evaluation. are they faking it? |
| 15:05.05 | sharvey | define: cleared |
| 15:05.34 | naman22 | successful |
| 15:06.12 | sharvey | google ultimately decides whether you pass or not |
| 15:06.26 | sharvey | and you won't know this until next monday |
| 15:06.53 | naman22 | in that case they must have been informed by their mentor i guess |
| 15:07.01 | sharvey | possibly, yeah |
| 15:07.14 | sharvey | I don't know the rules, whether the mentors are allowed to tell their students they passed |
| 15:07.37 | sharvey | they could just be cocky, in that they've done gsoc before and always have passed :P |
| 15:07.56 | naman22 | thanks buddy :) |
| 15:08.16 | sharvey | yup |
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| 15:17.48 | witness123 | !next |
| 15:17.50 | gsocbot | witness123: "next" is July 9th, 19:00 UTC - July 13th, 19:00 UTC: Mentors and students can submit mid-term evaluations |
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| 16:35.34 | gsocbot | phoenixyjll: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
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| 17:32.44 | crdueck | !next |
| 17:32.45 | gsocbot | crdueck: "next" is July 9th, 19:00 UTC - July 13th, 19:00 UTC: Mentors and students can submit mid-term evaluations |
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| 17:41.07 | carols | serves some tea and cookies |
| 17:41.12 | carols | eats some cookies |
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| 17:44.33 | alex|D-Guy | grabs one, grins at carol and goes back into his office to go on with coding |
| 17:45.12 | alex|D-Guy | *nom* thanks for the cookie |
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| 17:45.46 | carols | you're welcome |
| 17:45.49 | carols | it's one of those days |
| 17:52.25 | gevaerts | adds coffee and chocolate to the tea and cookies |
| 17:52.34 | carols | thanks gevaerts |
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| 17:53.52 | gevaerts | You're welcome! |
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| 18:04.16 | JordiGH | carols: What's going on, why is it one of those days? |
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| 18:11.41 | |Kev| | carols: I have a question! If the admin answers the midterm on behalf of the mentor, they should fill out the questions the way the mentor would, not the way they would, right? (re: number of years participating previously) |
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| 18:21.45 | agliodbs | |Kev|: correct |
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| 18:50.48 | |Kev| | agliodbs: Ta. |
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| 20:40.39 | mmadia | Hi. as an org admin, are the evaluations submitted by my org's students viewable? |
| 20:41.03 | Ivanovic | mmadia: at least after the evals are done it is possible for you to read them |
| 20:41.18 | Ivanovic | done as in "time is over and deadline past" |
| 20:41.24 | mmadia | ah, thanks. |
| 20:41.43 | Ivanovic | this was the case in the previous years and i assume it will be the same this year |
| 20:42.26 | mmadia | i've a feeling that last year i asked the same question too. :) |
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| 21:55.43 | Calcs88 | for the evaluation we only need to answer those questions in the dashboard? |
| 21:56.03 | carols | Calcs88: the required questions in the evaluation, yes. |
| 21:56.17 | Calcs88 | no other documents and stuff? |
| 21:56.30 | Calcs88 | I think I read somewhere about some document on paper |
| 21:56.40 | carols | Calcs88: only whatever your mentor/org admin wants. |
| 21:56.46 | carols | i just want an evaluation from you. |
| 21:56.48 | Calcs88 | oh that is his part, ok |
| 21:56.51 | Calcs88 | got it tnx |
| 21:56.54 | carols | yw |
| 21:57.35 | Calcs88 | by the way carols you are an amazing manager, I wonder how you get to organize all this |
| 21:57.52 | carols | Calcs88: thank you very much. it's not that hard once you have a plan in place. |
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| 22:13.08 | PioneerAxon | carols: Hi, in student mid-term evaluation, there is a question on "How responsive is your mentor?". So, should I just consider few e-mails we shared, or consider majority discussions on IRC, where, of course he responded in few minutes? |
| 22:13.23 | carols | PioneerAxon: consider all of it combined. |
| 22:14.41 | PioneerAxon | so, average time is ~ 5 mins, when longest time is ~ 2 days (on mail). :) |
| 22:14.51 | carols | PioneerAxon: cool |
| 22:14.59 | PioneerAxon | Thanks. :D |
| 22:15.27 | ansgar | Hmm, the evaluation doesn't appear under "my todos", only under "evaluations". |
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| 23:04.33 | k0p | hi folks |
| 23:04.46 | k0p | I lost my dashboard in google melange -.- |
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| 23:09.56 | carols | k0p: please contact the melange folks |
| 23:10.39 | PioneerAxon | k0p: Lost?? Can you open this link? http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/dashboard/google/gsoc2012 |
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| 23:11.47 | k0p | carols: ok tks |
| 23:12.03 | k0p | PioneerAxon: yes, I can. But only "my requests" appears. |
| 23:12.17 | k0p | There are several items missing :( |
| 23:13.42 | infinity0 | is there something wrong with melange? i log in and no dashboard |
| 23:13.51 | PioneerAxon | k0p: Oh!! Well, then as carols said, contact melange folks. :) |
| 23:13.55 | infinity0 | i go to my project page and it says "This page is inaccessible because you do not have a profile in the program at this time." |
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| 23:15.28 | madrazr | carols: Hi |
| 23:15.30 | k0p | infinity0: exactly |
| 23:15.35 | carols | hi madrazr |
| 23:15.43 | madrazr | checks the logs |
| 23:16.18 | carols | k0p and infinity0 you can talk to madrazr about the issue |
| 23:16.32 | infinity0 | ok, thanks |
| 23:16.56 | k0p | madrazr: not able to access to my dashboard. :S Is some mantainancen happening right now? |
| 23:17.12 | PioneerAxon | is feeling sleepy.. |
| 23:17.18 | k0p | *maintenance |
| 23:17.30 | PioneerAxon | Good night folks. |
| 23:17.37 | k0p | have a good night :) |
| 23:18.13 | madrazr | k0p: we did some changes in the backend, but it is unlikely that it has affected you |
| 23:18.43 | k0p | few minutes ago, I was feeling a evaluation |
| 23:18.48 | madrazr | k0p: can you please PM me your Melange username (historically called link_id) |
| 23:18.50 | k0p | when I submitted, it does not alloed me. |
| 23:18.59 | k0p | after that, I lost dashboard |
| 23:19.03 | *** join/#gsoc adaHopper (~adaHopper@84.123.100.36.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 23:19.10 | PioneerAxon | k0p: Thanks.. Good <whatever it is in your timezone>. :P |
| 23:19.36 | k0p | night :) |
| 23:20.34 | madrazr | k0p: looking |
| 23:20.41 | k0p | ok tks |
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| 23:26.35 | madrazr | Hello k0p and infinity0 and everyone else who has the problem with accessing your Dashboard on Melange, can you guys please try to sing out of your accounts and sign in again? |
| 23:26.42 | madrazr | and see what happens? |
| 23:26.59 | madrazr | *sign |
| 23:27.07 | adaHopper | thanks madrazr, I'll try it again |
| 23:27.08 | infinity0 | done, no effect |
| 23:27.19 | SukhE | madrazr: The issue persists. |
| 23:27.41 | adaHopper | nothing |
| 23:27.42 | madrazr | SukhE: adaHopper: Ok |
| 23:28.02 | adaHopper | I've tried also in different web browsers |
| 23:28.25 | madrazr | adaHopper: cool! Ok |
| 23:28.28 | madrazr | looking further |
| 23:28.35 | madrazr | adaHopper: thanks |
| 23:29.12 | adaHopper | thank you, madrazr |
| 23:30.23 | k0p | madrazr: not working for me |
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| 23:30.49 | *** mode/#gsoc [+o nathanielmanista] by ChanServ |
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| 23:41.09 | ojwb | hmm, i see I'm not alone in losing my dashboard |
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| 23:49.28 | carols | ojwb: madrazr is looking into it |
| 23:50.00 | madrazr | ojwb: k0p: it should be resolved soon. nathanielmanista srabbelier (who is not here) and I are all on it :) |
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| 23:54.32 | ojwb | madrazr: it's back for me now - thanks |
| 23:54.52 | madrazr | ojwb: cool! |
| 23:57.48 | adaHopper | It's working again here, too, thanks madrar |
| 23:57.54 | adaHopper | *madrazr |
| 23:58.00 | adaHopper | (sorry) |