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| 01:48.55 | rihen | hello |
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| 05:49.31 | Domiiii | !next |
| 05:49.32 | gsocbot | Domiiii: "next" is Beginning 24 August 2012, passing students can begin submitting code samples to Melange with a soft deadline of 14 September 2012 at 19:00 UTC. See http://goo.gl/NRoRW for more details. |
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| 12:47.17 | kai | "A full 24-hour sample of the global feed was generated by mercilessly scrolling down the page in Safari" |
| 12:47.24 | kai | nice materials section |
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| 14:21.45 | kai | now I read the phd dissertation on REST and I'm more confused than before |
| 14:26.11 | JordiGH | If you're tired from reading a difficult PhD dissertation, perhaps you should have a |
| 14:26.11 | JordiGH | ( •_•) |
| 14:26.11 | JordiGH | ( -_-)~⌐■-■ |
| 14:26.11 | JordiGH | (⌐■_■)> |
| 14:26.11 | JordiGH | ...rest |
| 14:28.06 | kai | Well, I think my takeaway message is that I'll simply not say that I've got a RESTful API for my webapp, because I don't understand RESTful enough to know if I comply, and just state that I've got a web-driven way to interact |
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| 14:29.16 | JordiGH | Sounds like every other standard out there. |
| 14:29.22 | JordiGH | So hard to know if you're implementing it or not... |
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| 14:38.35 | allman | Morning everyone! |
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| 14:45.17 | Domiiii | JordiGH how is it hard to implement a standard? A standard has a finite amount of fixed rules, none of them abiguous |
| 14:45.31 | JordiGH | "none of them ambiguous" <--- Hah! |
| 14:45.32 | Domiiii | if they are ambiguous, it would either not be a standard or it's a very bad standard |
| 14:45.38 | Domiiii | Give me an example |
| 14:45.47 | olasd | finite yes, countable not always |
| 14:45.48 | JordiGH | IEEE 754. |
| 14:45.59 | JordiGH | Wtf is a "NaN" supposed to mean in IEEE 754? |
| 14:46.11 | Domiiii | its one bit configuration? |
| 14:46.12 | JordiGH | And if you figure it out, quote chapter and verse. |
| 14:46.25 | JordiGH | What is the implementation supposed to do with a signalling NaN? |
| 14:46.37 | JordiGH | How is the implementation supposed to give access to rounding modes? |
| 14:46.41 | AmberJ_ | This reminds me of: http://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 14:47.02 | Domiiii | JordiGH in that case its obviously a set of possible configurations of bits |
| 14:47.13 | JordiGH | Domiiii: Eh? |
| 14:47.24 | JordiGH | Domiiii: What does configuration of bits have to do with what an implementation should do? |
| 14:47.59 | JordiGH | I also find ISO C++ ambiguous a lot of times. For example, I can't always tell if a certain operation is UB or not. |
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| 14:48.29 | Domiiii | JordiGH I think everything that is not explicitely stated is UB, no? |
| 14:48.33 | JordiGH | The MSFT standards are also horribly ambiguous, particularly for OOXML. A lot of it basically says "do whatever some version of MSFT Office does". |
| 14:48.59 | JordiGH | Domiiii: Nope, the C++ standard is quite clear what it considers UB when it does consider it UB. Sometimes it's just vague about whether a certain thing is UB or not. |
| 14:49.51 | Domiiii | I never liked C++ anyway... its a monster |
| 14:50.30 | JordiGH | Oh, C is approximately equally bad. |
| 14:50.43 | Domiiii | well for one, C's compile time is much faster |
| 14:50.53 | Domiiii | and its syntax is a lot simpler, obviously |
| 14:51.05 | Domiiii | but as much as the standard document goes |
| 14:51.07 | JordiGH | The C standard is also ambiguous. That reminds me, because sometimes reading the C++ standard, it says something like "whatever C does" (which it includes "by reference", as it says), and then you go look at the C standard and you're not enlightened. |
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| 14:51.14 | Domiiii | sure, I'll believe you now :) |
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| 14:51.41 | JordiGH | Sometimes I prefer languages like Python, where the standard is whatever /usr/bin/python says. |
| 14:52.08 | Domiiii | because there is only one implementation? |
| 14:52.25 | JordiGH | Well, several versions of the "same" implementation. |
| 14:52.34 | JordiGH | Then you have to figure out which version behaves how. |
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| 15:10.11 | walke434 | hi |
| 15:10.53 | walke434 | does anyone know if payments are still being sent out? I passed my final evaluation but I still have not received payment. |
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| 15:14.13 | allman | what's your email - I'll check on it for you. |
| 15:15.13 | allman | Never mind - you should have gotten an email from us yesterday about this - please check your email, including spam filter |
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| 15:45.53 | walke434 | thanks allman! |
| 15:46.09 | allman | :) You're welcome. |
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| 16:21.03 | tomprince | JordiGH: except pypy and jython and ironpython are all seperate implementations. |
| 16:21.58 | JordiGH | Bottom line: standards are a fantasy? |
| 16:28.32 | simonl | Standards still play an important role :) |
| 16:29.16 | simonl | Just think what would happen if everyone decided to replace TCP with an alternative |
| 16:29.24 | simonl | which was not standardized |
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| 16:30.06 | thiago | SCTP |
| 16:30.18 | thiago | well, it's standardised |
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| 16:30.46 | simonl | SCTP seems to be pretty much superior to TCP though :) |
| 16:30.54 | thiago | yeah |
| 16:31.03 | thiago | like betamax was superior to VHS, but no one uses it |
| 16:31.22 | thiago | the principle of CDMA is also superior to the principle of GSM, but GSM is a lot more widespread |
| 16:33.01 | simonl | not that I have a lot of experience with network protocols, but sending messages seems easier than writing freely to a stream |
| 16:33.15 | simonl | and IIRC SCTP supports both vs only stream for TCP |
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| 16:33.32 | thiago | SCTP supports both streaming and datagram mode |
| 16:33.44 | thiago | it's a reliable stream protocol, but it has a "datagram" mode interface |
| 16:33.55 | thiago | the most interesting feature of SCTP is multihoming |
| 16:34.36 | simonl | thiago: what would you use that for? |
| 16:34.40 | simonl | failoveR? |
| 16:34.46 | simonl | s/R/r/ |
| 16:34.54 | thiago | cell handover, for example |
| 16:35.05 | simonl | for mobile networks? |
| 16:35.13 | thiago | if you have a multihomed device, you can tell the other side what your other IPs are, so you can communicate over the best channel |
| 16:35.19 | thiago | and you can migrate from one to the other |
| 16:35.41 | thiago | and with IPv6 temporary address allocation, you may want to move a connection to the next IP |
| 16:36.33 | simonl | hmm, I hear there are other things I don't know enough about :D |
| 16:36.54 | simonl | taking a course in computer networks now, so hopefully I'll learn stuff there :) |
| 16:37.14 | thiago | right now, my temp address is allocating a new address every day, but it needs to remember the past 7 addresses |
| 16:38.12 | simonl | last look I had was a security course, where they explained that SCTP has a less DOSable handshake, which seems like good reason to switch |
| 16:38.20 | thiago | if connections could move over to a new IP without disconnecting, it could change more frequently |
| 16:38.29 | simonl | yeah |
| 16:38.48 | simonl | multihoming seems like a good thing :) |
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| 16:39.42 | kblin | simonl: there is a replacement for TCP that is widely used. it's called HTTP |
| 16:39.48 | simonl | thiago: do you know if SCTP as a transport for HTTP is feasible, or would that require a standard revision? |
| 16:40.06 | simonl | kblin: HTTP runs on top of TCP, right? |
| 16:40.29 | thiago | simonl: HTTP is specified on top of TCP |
| 16:40.32 | kblin | simonl: yeah, yeah ;) |
| 16:40.45 | thiago | running it on SCTP wouldn't be difficult, probably. But it would be non-standard. |
| 16:41.06 | gevaerts | HTTP runs the web, and everyone knows the web is another word for the internet |
| 16:41.25 | simonl | ok. Maybe it won't be so bad when SPDY gets some more traction |
| 16:41.47 | kblin | simonl: but application programmers seem to run everything on top of HTTP these days |
| 16:42.28 | thiago | including sockets (cf. WebSockets) |
| 16:42.36 | simonl | kblin: yeah, sure. But uni courses tend to cover details :) |
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| 16:43.06 | simonl | also, for security, all layers need to be secure :) |
| 16:43.22 | kblin | securiwhat? |
| 16:43.33 | simonl | haha :P |
| 16:43.53 | kblin | I'm talking about web applications |
| 16:44.13 | simonl | kblin: yeah |
| 16:44.14 | kblin | I'll start worrying about network security when my users stop using IE6 |
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| 16:44.20 | gevaerts | Are you trying to suggest there are non-web applications? |
| 16:44.54 | kblin | gevaerts: yeah. I'm currently writing a webapp to wrap a "legacy" application |
| 16:44.57 | simonl | git supports non-web operation |
| 16:45.06 | kblin | legacy as in non-shiny-ajaxy |
| 16:45.17 | gevaerts | Heresy! |
| 16:45.30 | kblin | legacy as in "if I run it from the command line, it just works" |
| 16:45.44 | kblin | of course we can't be having that |
| 16:45.51 | gevaerts | That clearly needs to be fixed |
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| 16:46.25 | kblin | arguably with the right libraries, javascript isn't that bad |
| 16:46.39 | kblin | I really owe sfb a beer |
| 16:47.06 | simonl | I remember someone complaining that he saw a shop having a terminal program for registering purchases |
| 16:47.26 | simonl | "Oh my, that software is soo old, it doesn't even have a GUI" |
| 16:48.01 | kblin | :) |
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| 16:50.50 | kblin | yay, code archeology |
| 16:51.04 | kblin | plays the indiana jones theme |
| 16:52.54 | simonl | kblin: be careful. You never know which function is going to let the hordes of bugs loose. |
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| 17:13.07 | allman | "Snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?" |
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| 17:19.24 | kblin | allman: in my case it's more "kerberos, why does it have to be kerberos", but close, yes :) |
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| 17:19.50 | allman | lol |
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| 18:00.11 | downey | serves some post-gsoc tea |
| 18:02.02 | censorydep | delicately sips and slurps |
| 18:02.09 | censorydep | (note the raised pinky finger) |
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| 18:02.43 | kblin | hmm, food.... |
| 18:03.17 | downey | passes the chocolate jelly beans |
| 18:03.19 | allman | any hot chocolate? |
| 18:03.38 | dfighter | that's reserved for Carol I believe |
| 18:03.42 | downey | actually have a whole case of it sitting here :) |
| 18:03.43 | allman | :) You read my mind! |
| 18:04.29 | allman | We're hoping to have a hot chocolate bar at the Mentor Summit :) |
| 18:05.30 | downey | https://twitter.com/downey/status/241597517551239168 |
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| 18:07.16 | allman | Nice! |
| 18:07.57 | kblin | allman: ooooooh |
| 18:08.52 | allman | kblin: you should read Stephanie's chocolate blog :) |
| 18:13.22 | kblin | actually the hot chocolate is one of the really nice things on the microsoft campus :) |
| 18:17.18 | vultraz | GCI happening this year? |
| 18:17.35 | allman | vultraz: too soon to say |
| 18:17.52 | censorydep | kblin, since it's seattle, I have to assume the trees are nice too. ;-) |
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| 18:18.04 | kblin | censorydep: nicer than in the valley, yes |
| 18:18.19 | kblin | censorydep: but that's not saying much |
| 18:18.34 | censorydep | true. Which is sad since silicon valley used to be all orchards from what I understand. |
| 18:19.18 | allman | But are there Pileated Woodpeckers? |
| 18:19.18 | allman | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileated_Woodpecker |
| 18:20.20 | allman | Re SV farms: those of you who come to the Mentor Summit can cross the street to see the remains of a SiliconValley orchard with farm buildings. |
| 18:20.35 | allman | It's a little slice of the past. |
| 18:20.36 | downey | we have them over on sanibel |
| 18:20.46 | downey | pileateds, that is |
| 18:20.53 | allman | downey: Really! How cool! |
| 18:21.19 | allman | I'd never seen one close up before - they're huge! |
| 18:22.17 | downey | allman: If you're into birds, put the Ding Darling national wildlife refuge on your list. |
| 18:22.50 | allman | Where is that? |
| 18:23.45 | downey | allman: Nearly 1/3 or so of Sanibel Island, Florida |
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| 18:24.40 | downey | allman: I think there are like 200 different species :) |
| 18:24.48 | allman | I'd love to get down there sometime. I hear the seashells are amazing! |
| 18:25.10 | allman | And I have a real soft spot for Ibis. |
| 18:25.20 | downey | allman: Yeah, definitely. Even a shell museum |
| 18:25.25 | allman | Let's talk nature sometime soon :) |
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| 19:05.45 | nemo | downey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott (I just learned about this from http://slashdot.org/poll/2431/whats-your-usual-coffee-making-method just minutes ago, and thought of your link above) |
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| 19:07.23 | downey | nemo: interesting, i did not know that |
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| 19:09.59 | nemo | downey: My SO's comment when I linked her to it. "yeah, is good reason for boycott but even more compelling for me is they are the worst offender for using slave labor -- just a bad company in general. is a shame, but there are alternatives" |
| 19:10.14 | nemo | "i stopped getting anything made by nestle in the vending machine. Mars is pretty bad, too. Hershey's and Cadbury's aren't perfect, but are the best of the large companies." |
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| 19:10.30 | nemo | "Perugina is pretty bad. Generally, the European-based companies are worse than the U.S. ones." |
| 19:11.14 | nemo | I wonder if that reflects the Belgian colonial history or something. *shrug* |
| 19:11.42 | nemo | TBH, not something I've ever really worried about that much, but she does a lot of this consumer activism. |
| 19:12.12 | nemo | if I end up going this year despite the new baby, I shall probably follow her chocolate buying guidelines |
| 19:12.27 | nemo | now that I know about the extent of the whole chocolate thing |
| 19:12.56 | nemo | (extent of chocolate buying at GSoC that is :) ) |
| 19:14.15 | nemo | Côte d'Ivoire is the worst for that |
| 19:14.21 | nemo | http://slavefreechocolate.org/ |
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| 19:20.45 | gevaerts | nemo: "Belgian colonial history"? |
| 19:21.26 | gevaerts | suspects that nemo is blaming all of modern slavery on modern reports of what happened in Congo *before* it was Belgian |
| 19:21.40 | nemo | heh |
| 19:21.54 | nemo | gevaerts: naw. I just confused Côte d'Ivoire and congo. |
| 19:22.06 | nemo | rubber, chocolate. they are similar right? :) |
| 19:22.17 | gevaerts | Well... |
| 19:22.21 | nemo | plus, when I visit the family in belgium, there's all that yummy belgian chocolate |
| 19:22.27 | gevaerts | If they are, you need to buy more expensive chocolate :) |
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| 19:36.43 | nemo | "re: chocolate, Equal Exchange and Green & Black's are good. Can get them at Whole Foods and MOM. Trader Joe's is good, I remember -- I used to get my chocolate there. At Safeway, I tried to stick to Hershey's or Cadbury's since they got "C' grades on ethics, instead of Ds or Fs." |
| 19:36.58 | nemo | "I forget where Ghiradelli is -- not the worst but probably not so good. Will look it up after finishing what we already bought :]" |
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