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| 07:09.47 | kai | man, my boss should get a sysop |
| 07:11.36 | kai | if I figure out where to buy one, I think we've got a birthday present |
| 07:11.42 | kai | ;) |
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| 07:41.59 | thebolt | hi kai |
| 07:42.04 | thebolt | been a while, how's it going? |
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| 08:06.11 | kai | hey thebolt |
| 08:06.38 | kai | fine overall, just more busy with sysop-ing than sciencing the last week, and getting annoyed |
| 08:13.43 | thebolt | hehe :) |
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| 08:50.51 | kai | hm, durn |
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| 09:09.33 | kai | man, how do people who build webapps deal with this crap on a daily basis. I could spend weeks on building tools to make this less painful. I wish I had time to do that |
| 09:10.13 | kai | but I'm beginning to think that building distributable binaries for three platforms instead of a webapp might actually be easier |
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| 09:19.24 | thebolt | kai: unfortunately that usually ends up feeling easier :P |
| 09:21.19 | |Kev| | kai: If it's only three platforms then yeah, bound to be :) |
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| 14:15.04 | rihen | hello |
| 14:20.07 | kai | welcome to the department of redundancy department, and hello. |
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| 15:49.35 | tomprince | I can't seem to login to the google-modertor for the mentor sumit |
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| 15:54.35 | kblin | google-moderator? |
| 15:54.50 | kblin | oh, |
| 15:54.54 | paultag | for the summit |
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| 15:56.47 | kblin | yeah, I forgot that was the name of that web service |
| 15:58.34 | kblin | sticks a [citationneeded] on the last proposal |
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| 16:00.12 | JordiGH | Have you guys had any luck with this sort of thing? https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?37411#comment3 |
| 16:00.29 | JordiGH | I'm a software terrorist, holding bugfixes ransom. |
| 16:00.47 | JordiGH | And they do not negotiate with terrorists, looks like. :-/ |
| 16:01.00 | paultag | what the hell |
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| 16:01.22 | paultag | that's a maintainre too |
| 16:01.28 | paultag | maintainer* |
| 16:01.30 | JordiGH | Yeah, that's me. |
| 16:01.54 | paultag | boggles |
| 16:02.07 | JordiGH | I know. I'm a monster. |
| 16:02.32 | paultag | this is the reason most people argue against bug bounty pools |
| 16:02.43 | JordiGH | What is that reason and the argument? |
| 16:02.59 | paultag | maintainers will start holding fixes off until they get money in the pool for it. |
| 16:03.06 | JordiGH | Ardour does bounties. It seems to work for them. They do some things I don't like crippling the gratis docs, though. |
| 16:03.08 | paultag | becuase it rewards behavior like that. You're free do do whatever you want as a maintainer |
| 16:03.11 | paultag | but I disagree. |
| 16:03.24 | JordiGH | You think maintainers have some humanitarian obligation? |
| 16:03.35 | paultag | to fix buggy software they maintain? |
| 16:03.36 | JordiGH | To offer their work for no pay? |
| 16:03.41 | paultag | le sigh |
| 16:03.43 | JordiGH | I fix the bugs I care about. |
| 16:03.50 | JordiGH | That affect me or the people I work with. |
| 16:03.58 | paultag | no, you fixed it and are now refusing to share until someone pays you |
| 16:04.01 | paultag | it's not that you can't find the time |
| 16:04.07 | paultag | it's you want money out of users |
| 16:04.13 | paultag | which you're free to do, of course |
| 16:04.16 | paultag | I just disagree. |
| 16:04.31 | JordiGH | So it's wrong to do the work and then ask for money? I should have agreed for the money in advance? |
| 16:04.41 | paultag | le sigh |
| 16:04.51 | paultag | just keep doing what you're doing, I'm sure it'll work out fine. |
| 16:05.05 | JordiGH | No, it's an honest question. I wonder how you approach this problem instead. |
| 16:05.16 | paultag | I get paid to do f/oss work, so I've never had this problem. |
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| 16:05.20 | JordiGH | I really do want to know what you recommend instead, what works better. |
| 16:05.23 | paultag | I've also been a contributor for years without getting paid. |
| 16:05.43 | paultag | I really don't care about octive |
| 16:05.47 | paultag | so feel free to do what you want :) |
| 16:05.50 | paultag | it's not affecting me |
| 16:06.03 | paultag | octave, whatever |
| 16:06.03 | JordiGH | I'm glad it's not. But I would be thankful for your advice anyways. |
| 16:06.11 | paultag | JordiGH: I would release the patch. |
| 16:06.24 | paultag | JordiGH: other debian developers have flattr, and donate buttons |
| 16:06.30 | paultag | a few make a few hundred a month for their work |
| 16:06.38 | paultag | holding out money for bugfixes is so dirty to me |
| 16:07.04 | paultag | even with comerical / nonfree software |
| 16:07.16 | JordiGH | So you think my self-mocking "software terrorist" monicker is in fact accurate? |
| 16:07.24 | paultag | I'm not calling you names |
| 16:07.31 | paultag | you're well within whatever rights you have to do this |
| 16:07.34 | paultag | who am I to judge. |
| 16:07.40 | paultag | I just don't care for that behavior. |
| 16:07.46 | JordiGH | Well, you called my actions dirty. I'm trying to understand why. |
| 16:07.58 | JordiGH | Is it dishonest? Cheating? Unfair? |
| 16:08.14 | JordiGH | Selfish? Greedy? |
| 16:08.35 | paultag | like I said, you're free to do this. I just find fixing a bug (for a free software project) and holding the bugfix back for people to pay you (personally) for your work as being skeevy |
| 16:08.47 | JordiGH | Can you describe why you call it skeevy and dirty? |
| 16:08.50 | paultag | No. |
| 16:08.54 | JordiGH | Ok. |
| 16:08.58 | paultag | it's an ethical thing for me, I don't think I need to rationalize it |
| 16:09.08 | paultag | it's an irrational thing, ethics. |
| 16:09.20 | JordiGH | True, you don't need to rationalise it if you don't want me to sympathise. |
| 16:09.30 | paultag | I don't really care what you do :) |
| 16:09.40 | JordiGH | Pity. I cared to know your opinions. |
| 16:10.13 | Triskelios | well, you're prioritising immediate personal benefit vs. improving the software, effectively creating a for-pay fork of something free, albiet a temporary one |
| 16:10.28 | paultag | yeah, I think it's the personal benifit thing |
| 16:10.40 | paultag | if the cash went to the FSF or GNU, I might feel less shady, but I still don't like it. |
| 16:10.57 | JordiGH | That's a good point. I could point them to GNU. |
| 16:11.13 | JordiGH | Unless you think this is also skeevy: https://my.fsf.org/donate/working-together/octave |
| 16:11.16 | paultag | I'd also feel better if it was a feature request |
| 16:11.22 | paultag | and not a bugfix |
| 16:11.34 | JordiGH | It's a minor, boring, trivial bug that does not affect most people. |
| 16:11.40 | paultag | still |
| 16:11.52 | JordiGH | These guys must have a very peculiar script they're trying to run and failing. |
| 16:11.52 | paultag | If I wanted a feature in something I used, I'd be willing to donate for that feature |
| 16:11.55 | paultag | in fact, I have |
| 16:11.55 | paultag | a few times. |
| 16:12.24 | paultag | but bugfixes? No, that seems wrong. |
| 16:13.22 | JordiGH | Triskelios: The software is still free, and I offered to accept their patches too. I suppose there's a secret branch I keep in my local clone that won't be revealed without some sort of compensation. Is that skeevy and dirty? |
| 16:13.24 | kblin | JordiGH: I wouldn't do this myself for another reason, actually |
| 16:13.30 | JordiGH | kblin: What is that reason? |
| 16:13.42 | simonl | My 2c: The fact that you have a fix makes this not-ok |
| 16:13.51 | JordiGH | paultag: Is it perhaps because you consider a bug a broken promise? |
| 16:13.53 | paultag | I'm with simonl |
| 16:14.08 | paultag | JordiGH: nothing like that. It just seems like it was broken due to the implementer's error |
| 16:14.15 | paultag | and fixing a mistake shouldn't be something you charge for, IMHO. |
| 16:14.24 | JordiGH | Well, it wasn't my error. I was fixing someone else's code. |
| 16:14.28 | paultag | "Sorry I forgot to give you X, give me more money and I'll give you the rest" |
| 16:14.32 | paultag | same thing. It's a project. |
| 16:14.34 | simonl | if this was instead: "This is a very special case and I don't feel like investing time debugging it. If you make a donation I'll reconsider" it would be a totally different situation |
| 16:14.37 | kblin | JordiGH: I think it's unlikely that they'll donate enough to pay a market price for a software developer, but by coding for money you make it work, and sell yourself short |
| 16:14.45 | paultag | simonl++ |
| 16:14.51 | paultag | also donating to the project, or to the FSF/GNU |
| 16:15.05 | paultag | also kblin++ |
| 16:15.23 | paultag | 6 hours of a good hacker's time isn't worth a 5-spot. |
| 16:15.30 | JordiGH | simonl: I didn't know how long it would take until I started. I thought it would be a minor thing when I started. Turned into an all-day bughunt. All the time I thought I was almost there, since it seemed so easy. |
| 16:15.47 | paultag | at a moderate consulting rate, that'd be about 900 USD |
| 16:16.20 | JordiGH | kblin: I actually don't care about the amount. 5 bucks would be great. I care about the principle of getting paid. I also offered to take payment in the form of a patch or mp3s. |
| 16:16.38 | JordiGH | paultag: I'm much, much cheaper than 900 USD. |
| 16:16.56 | paultag | that's a moderate market price where I am for a good coder's time for 6 hours. |
| 16:17.07 | paultag | for consulting, anyway. |
| 16:17.21 | JordiGH | For that much money, I'd do a much prettier fix than I did. |
| 16:17.36 | kblin | JordiGH: I think I understand why you're doing this. I guess you mostly want to see if the reporters care for this bug enough to do more than whine about it |
| 16:17.39 | JordiGH | And would work hard to get into the next stable point release into the vague future development release. |
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| 16:18.18 | JordiGH | instead of the next major dev release in some vague future. |
| 16:18.24 | kblin | but I don't think I'd chose to do it your way |
| 16:18.55 | paultag | this entire conversation makes me sad. |
| 16:19.00 | kblin | I hate it when people try to pay me for stuff I do for fun, unless they pay enought that I'd do it for a "real" job |
| 16:19.10 | paultag | kblin++ |
| 16:19.24 | JordiGH | Well, it wasn't fun. :-/ |
| 16:19.41 | JordiGH | I actually asked, "this bug is minor, does it really affect you?" |
| 16:19.45 | kblin | but this "I'll paypal you 10 bucks" thing is just disgraceful |
| 16:20.00 | JordiGH | And someone else, not the original reporter, said the bug was horrible for this and that reason. |
| 16:20.30 | JordiGH | So I thought, oh no, my users think it's horrible. I'd best fix it. |
| 16:20.48 | JordiGH | So I started fixing it... then I thought, geez this is a lot of work for something that has a really simple workaround. |
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| 16:21.12 | paultag | dude, if you're that hard-pressed for cash, I'm sure some users wouldn't mind paying to help you find time to keep working |
| 16:21.21 | JordiGH | I'm not hard pressed for cash. |
| 16:21.22 | paultag | but charging for a bugfix bug is not fun |
| 16:21.25 | paultag | then what the hell |
| 16:21.30 | kblin | paultag: I don't think that's what it's all about |
| 16:21.31 | JordiGH | But I think it's a problem that we're all giving away our work gratis. |
| 16:21.34 | paultag | you're not getting a market rate, you don't need the 10 bucks |
| 16:22.04 | paultag | 12:21 < JordiGH> But I think it's a problem that we're all giving away our work gratis. |
| 16:22.07 | paultag | sigh. |
| 16:22.13 | kblin | I don't |
| 16:22.14 | JordiGH | paultag: True, I don't need the money, which is why I offered other less burdensome ways to pay. |
| 16:22.45 | kblin | in fact, in my field I kind of expect everybody to do this |
| 16:22.54 | JordiGH | I suppose you would say that if I'm not happy about working gratis for Octave, I should just stop working on it. This seems like a sadder state of affairs. |
| 16:22.57 | kblin | and thus I'm happy to lead by example |
| 16:23.05 | paultag | JordiGH: I spend my free time working on software you might be using, and I don't whine when users (like you) need something fixed, and I'm not going to charge you for it |
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| 16:23.26 | paultag | I have spent year of my life working tirelessly, daily on stuff like this |
| 16:23.29 | paultag | years* |
| 16:23.50 | JordiGH | paultag: So in my situation, after all the work you've done, which you didn't enjoy doing, you would just shrug it off and keep working? |
| 16:23.52 | simonl | I think requesting payment for bug fixes is a little sketchy too... For features it would be more reasonable, but the troubles kblin mentions still apply, if you feel the same way |
| 16:23.55 | paultag | JordiGH: yes. |
| 16:23.59 | paultag | JordiGH: I have, many times. |
| 16:24.12 | paultag | JordiGH: you've made someone happy and a contributon to the world. |
| 16:24.12 | JordiGH | So have I, many times. |
| 16:24.23 | paultag | smile and move on. |
| 16:24.24 | JordiGH | Usually knowing I made someone happy is good enoug. |
| 16:24.36 | paultag | it sounds like you're burned out |
| 16:24.39 | JordiGH | But I don't think the happiness for this bug really offsets all the cursing and anger I felt while fixing it. |
| 16:24.43 | paultag | JordiGH: why don't you commit the patch and take a few months off |
| 16:25.04 | paultag | I've heard good things about your project |
| 16:25.11 | paultag | I'm sure you do great work, and I value you as a person |
| 16:25.21 | paultag | but it sounds like you're a bit burned out |
| 16:25.37 | paultag | I think this is about getting people to acknowlage the fact you've been working so hard, yeah? |
| 16:25.47 | paultag | we all go through stuff like that. |
| 16:25.52 | JordiGH | I don't think I'll come back to Octave if there is no pay. I have never seen free software about being gratis. That's not why I'm here at all. |
| 16:26.03 | JordiGH | I mean, I don't think I'll come back if I take a break. |
| 16:26.13 | paultag | that's fine. You don't have to work on f/oss projects. |
| 16:26.21 | JordiGH | I am always troubled when people think the antonym of "open source" is "commercial". |
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| 16:26.39 | paultag | I work on F/OSS code for my job, and I get paid a fair rate for it. |
| 16:26.47 | paultag | perhaps you can find a job in F/OSS as well. |
| 16:26.54 | paultag | the FSF has a F/OSS job posting board |
| 16:27.29 | JordiGH | It's not just acknowledgment. It's that we really need an economy that can work. Octave is always lagging behind Matlab, and it's really amazing what we've managed to accomplish despite have almost no budget. It's even more amazing what we can accomplish with the moderate budget that GSoC provides. Jesus, 5000 USD, and we get some of the best code out there. |
| 16:27.36 | paultag | we don't. |
| 16:27.36 | simonl | JordiGH: How do you get paid for it right now? Or is it spare time work? (if you don't mind me asking) |
| 16:27.42 | paultag | this is a hobby for me. |
| 16:27.50 | paultag | don't screw up my hobby :) |
| 16:27.58 | JordiGH | simonl: At work, we use Octave, and my employers like it when Octave works properly. |
| 16:28.14 | paultag | JordiGH: do they let you work on it in your free time? |
| 16:28.18 | paultag | erm, work time |
| 16:28.29 | JordiGH | I only work on Octave during company time. |
| 16:28.35 | paultag | so you want to be paid twice??? |
| 16:28.48 | kblin | JordiGH: so I've worked on wine and work on samba, no need to tell me about lagging behind the major player in the field |
| 16:28.58 | JordiGH | Well, sometimes I work outside of company time. Like this time, because it turned into a matter of pride of getting this fixed. |
| 16:29.15 | paultag | this entire situation is nasty. |
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| 16:30.03 | JordiGH | Eh, if this doesn't work out, fine, experiment failed, and Octave will take longer to have a fix for a bug that affects almost no one, and I will have learned a valuable lesson about how we free really does mean gratis. |
| 16:30.18 | paultag | le sigh |
| 16:30.21 | paultag | I think Red Hat disproves you. |
| 16:30.34 | kblin | we're not saying that, are we? |
| 16:30.51 | simonl | I don't think "I got no money from fixing this bug" warrants that conclusion |
| 16:31.02 | paultag | simonl: correction, enough money |
| 16:31.05 | paultag | he did some of it on work time |
| 16:31.14 | simonl | right |
| 16:31.29 | JordiGH | paultag told me I should take a break and stop working on Octave if the satisfaction of my work isn't enough. |
| 16:31.33 | paultag | yes. |
| 16:31.45 | paultag | you sound burned out. |
| 16:31.45 | JordiGH | And that asking for more is skeevy and dirty. |
| 16:32.15 | paultag | I've seen burnout a lot. You sound burned out. I didn't say exactly that, but I did suggest you stop for a while and take a break. |
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| 16:32.45 | JordiGH | Do you think this applies to other fields? A musician who will not perform for an audience unless she gets paid? A reporter shouldn't write stories if no newspaper buys them? |
| 16:33.08 | paultag | dude, give it a rest. |
| 16:33.11 | paultag | take a break |
| 16:33.25 | paultag | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnout_(psychology) |
| 16:33.27 | simonl | I'll expand on my view some more: I'd love to one day do paid work on OSS projects. Personally I would charge for features or support (ie, we have a problem, we'll pay you fix it) |
| 16:33.36 | paultag | there's a bit more on burnout, this really doesn't sound healthy |
| 16:33.38 | JordiGH | Octave will forever suck unless it gets some money. And there's so much money out there it could have. |
| 16:33.38 | simonl | but not for the act of pushing a patch upstream |
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| 16:33.54 | paultag | simonl++ |
| 16:34.31 | kblin | simonl: to be fair, I think if someone else supplied said patch, I understand JordiGH would push it for free :) |
| 16:34.40 | JordiGH | Oh, of course I would. |
| 16:34.52 | JordiGH | And yes, gratis. |
| 16:34.55 | simonl | kblin: right :) |
| 16:35.38 | kblin | and to be honest this is not really a black/white issue |
| 16:35.49 | paultag | nor something anyone can stop you from doing |
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| 16:36.50 | kblin | but it sounds a bit similar to fixing the bug and then posting on the bug tracker "well, I've fixed it, but you're getting on my nerves, so I won't push or publish it" |
| 16:36.59 | paultag | kblin++ |
| 16:37.13 | paultag | (very Ion window manager-ey, as noted elsewhere) |
| 16:37.34 | paultag | JordiGH: anyway, leave it. Push the fix, or don't, and take a long break. Just stop for a while. |
| 16:37.39 | kblin | which to be honest I have felt the urge to do with some rather annoying bug reporters ;) |
| 16:37.47 | paultag | if you don't come back, fine, someone else will come around that cares |
| 16:37.47 | JordiGH | Oh, the reporter isn't getting on my nerves. The bug was. It was really annoying to fix. I was hoping the reporter would care enough about having it fixed to contribute to its fixing somehow. |
| 16:38.10 | JordiGH | The reporter actually wrote me a very angry email. |
| 16:38.24 | JordiGH | This was my response: http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Re-bug-37411-Diagonal-matrix-attribution-error-and-diag-function-bugs-td4644437.html |
| 16:38.25 | paultag | JordiGH: let it go. Take a break. |
| 16:38.32 | paultag | just walk away |
| 16:38.40 | paultag | no one will blame you, it's going to be OK. |
| 16:39.36 | JordiGH | And life will go on, people will keep using Matlab, nobody will value source code and collaboration, people will get their Matlab-without-the-price-tag which is what they really want, not source, not community, not colleagues, just something for nothing. |
| 16:39.42 | paultag | that's fine |
| 16:39.44 | paultag | take a break |
| 16:39.48 | paultag | it's not your problem anymore. |
| 16:40.12 | paultag | you sound overworked and under appreciated |
| 16:40.17 | paultag | just do something else. |
| 16:40.43 | paultag | we don't need another reiser |
| 16:41.05 | dfighter | hahaha |
| 16:41.21 | dfighter | I doubt he did what he did because of payment issues tho |
| 16:41.27 | paultag | true :) |
| 16:41.31 | paultag | but after a while you just snap |
| 16:41.38 | dfighter | yea I know |
| 16:41.41 | paultag | :) |
| 16:41.47 | dfighter | I've been burnt out plenty of times |
| 16:41.49 | paultag | everyone goes through burnout, it's a thing |
| 16:41.51 | paultag | yeah, me too |
| 16:41.57 | paultag | take a few months off, JordiGH. It'll be OK. |
| 16:41.58 | dfighter | it happens if you work for free for extended periods of time |
| 16:42.01 | JordiGH | So you think I'm gonna kill my wife because I want to get paid? :-((((( |
| 16:42.17 | paultag | no, becuase you sound burned out, JordiGH. Don't twist my words, I care about you |
| 16:42.18 | dfighter | due to a simple economical law: "the demand for free goods is infinite" |
| 16:42.20 | paultag | and you're sitting here sniping at me |
| 16:42.26 | paultag | burnout. |
| 16:42.30 | paultag | take a break, go somewhere. |
| 16:42.44 | JordiGH | Your advice isn't making me feel any better. |
| 16:42.47 | paultag | fine |
| 16:42.53 | paultag | take a break and don't talk to me for a few months |
| 16:42.57 | paultag | then tell me I'm wrong then. |
| 16:43.04 | kblin | dfighter: I know a lot of people who burnt out working for money, so I don't see that "free" thing coming in there |
| 16:44.09 | dfighter | kblin yea I know you can burn out because of paid-for work too |
| 16:44.28 | dfighter | however when you work for free, and get no satisfaction from it |
| 16:44.32 | dfighter | only more whining from users |
| 16:44.41 | dfighter | that can accelarate the process I guess |
| 16:44.58 | JordiGH | I'm surprised at the consensus against bug bounties. Either do it for love, or don't do it at all. |
| 16:45.07 | paultag | le sigh. |
| 16:45.08 | dfighter | at least at work you get paid and then you can buy some satisfaction |
| 16:45.08 | kblin | JordiGH: well, seeing how people in here seem to disagree, while people on your mailing list agree, so this might also be a question of community culture |
| 16:45.10 | JordiGH | And especially don't do it first and then ask for a bounty. |
| 16:45.11 | paultag | again with the word twidting |
| 16:45.28 | paultag | JordiGH: walk away |
| 16:45.30 | paultag | seriously |
| 16:45.31 | dfighter | in the form of prostitutes if nothing else |
| 16:45.35 | dfighter | you can't get for free |
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| 16:45.59 | JordiGH | paultag: I'm putting you temporarily on ignore. I'm only going to walk away from you. Nothing personal, but we're not reaching each other. |
| 16:46.01 | paultag | JordiGH: just walk away. Take a break. Mental health is much more important then a few patches. |
| 16:46.26 | kblin | this conversation is heading in a direction I don't think we want to have here |
| 16:46.45 | paultag | yah, true enough. |
| 16:46.46 | kblin | paultag: I think we can agree that JordiGH and our opinions differ :) |
| 16:46.49 | paultag | Back to getting paid for F/OSS :) |
| 16:46.51 | paultag | kblin: sure :) |
| 16:46.55 | paultag | o/ |
| 16:47.04 | dfighter | btw I like simonl's freemium suggestion |
| 16:47.15 | dfighter | that's what mysql have been doing forever too |
| 16:47.26 | dfighter | same with Qt |
| 16:47.35 | JordiGH | kblin: Yeah, that clash of cultures is what I find so strange. I actually asked the Octave devs before posting that reply, and most seemed happy with it. Then again, we're all very GNU and free-as-in-freedom, while y'all are all about "Open Source vs Commercial". |
| 16:48.21 | JordiGH | dfighter: Yeah, I also like the idea of selling GPL exceptions. It works for some people, like FFTW (some library that is important for Octave). |
| 16:48.44 | kblin | just because you're repeating things doesn't make them true |
| 16:49.06 | dfighter | JordiGH I didn't exactly mean just those, I more meant extras like custom development for customers |
| 16:49.14 | dfighter | better more direct support |
| 16:49.16 | dfighter | etc |
| 16:49.33 | kblin | I care about the freedom part, I spend too much time of my life reimplementing non-free stuff |
| 16:49.42 | JordiGH | This was mostly an experiment. I don't think I will repeat it, but not because I think it was morally misguided. I just think kblin is probably correct that it won't have the intended effect. |
| 16:50.07 | dfighter | kblin, JordiGH I care about both free parts |
| 16:50.16 | dfighter | free as in freedom, and free as in free beer |
| 16:50.48 | kblin | JordiGH: so another thing I'd be worried about is actually people getting used to their bugs being fixed for 5 bucks bein paypalled about |
| 16:51.19 | kblin | which I think would make even less people contribute code |
| 16:52.20 | dfighter | and less bug reports too |
| 16:52.30 | kblin | I think I'd gladly have paid some small amount of money to get patches in really horrible third-party code fixed instead of having to dig into the code myself |
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| 16:54.26 | kblin | usually of course the bugs I did contribute fixes for were the bugs where the conversation stopped at "that seems like a pretty esoteric bug, and I don't care enough about it to fix it" |
| 16:54.39 | JordiGH | I used that precise wording, "esoteric". |
| 16:55.41 | kblin | yeah, I was paraphrasing your first reply |
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| 16:58.45 | simonl | once again, I don't think wanting payment is wrong per se. But to make it work long term, it's not good to charge for bug fixes. You need to build "the system" so that the resources to fix bugs are there without additional payments, otherwise faith in the project will dwindle |
| 16:59.15 | simonl | admittedly, I'm now talking about more-or-less complete funding for all the work |
| 16:59.25 | paultag | .oO(which he has) |
| 16:59.39 | kblin | simonl: it probably is a good way to find out if someone cares enough to fork :) |
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| 17:00.18 | simonl | paultag: yes, but I'm guessing not the whole project |
| 17:01.27 | paultag | ← back to work, 4real |
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| 17:07.24 | paultag | http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-women@lists.debian.org/msg03672.html ← JordiGH is a Debian Troll. |
| 17:07.28 | paultag | (let's disengage) |
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| 17:07.55 | paultag | he also harassed a Debian Developer and showed up at his workplace demanding another DD's real name. |
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| 17:08.22 | dfighter | lol |
| 17:08.46 | paultag | (posted his bug in d-devel to see if it was just us) |
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| 17:17.25 | JordiGH | paultag: You're unignored. |
| 17:17.56 | JordiGH | Sorry about that. |
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| 17:22.44 | kblin | hm, "the seralini experiment" also sounds like a dan brown thriller |
| 17:22.52 | kblin | it's also about as bogus. |
| 17:23.04 | kblin | someone get tom hanks and produce a movie |
| 17:23.27 | kblin | ... and that incidently should have gone to #bioinformatics... |
| 17:23.29 | kblin | oh well |
| 17:23.30 | kblin | :) |
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| 17:30.05 | Triskelios | paultag: I don't see that post as particularly troll-ish; it was responding to a particularly narrow-minded question |
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| 18:11.08 | JordiGH | w00t |
| 18:11.11 | JordiGH | Bug reporter is paying. |
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| 18:40.16 | JordiGH | Looks like I made news on Reddit... |
| 18:40.29 | JordiGH | Andy Warhol was right. |
| 18:43.01 | gevaerts | Well done! :) |
| 18:46.31 | dfighter | lol |
| 18:46.37 | dfighter | JordiGH link plz |
| 18:47.10 | gevaerts | If I had been the bug reporter, I think I'd have felt a bit annoyed |
| 18:49.09 | gevaerts | I'm definitely not against getting paid for work, but I'm more for making that sort of thing clear up front |
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| 19:37.33 | JordiGH | dfighter: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1091r1/octave_dev_demands_money_to_release_bugfix_that/ |
| 19:38.12 | JordiGH | I got a 75 USD Amazon gift certificate. Which makes me very happy. I'm now working on incorporating the bugfix: http://agora.octave.org/snippet/6Hm7/ |
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| 21:51.54 | edsiper | summit question: if our org is still under 2000USD, can we expense an extra hotel night ? |
| 21:52.08 | carols | edsiper: no |
| 21:52.16 | carols | the 2000 is only for travel expenses |
| 21:53.09 | edsiper | got it, thanks.. |
| 21:53.30 | carols | yw |
| 21:54.02 | edsiper | carols, that applies also for a night before the flight ?, e.g: arrive airport 22:00 and flight departure next day 10am |
| 21:54.14 | tomprince | Even if it is cheeper to stay an extra day, for a flight? |
| 21:54.23 | carols | um, you're arriving saturday morning? i don't understand. |
| 21:54.35 | carols | tomprince: yes |
| 21:54.41 | edsiper | carols, when returning back... |
| 21:54.59 | carols | edsiper: the hotel stay on friday and saturday are paid for regardless of when your flight is. |
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| 22:02.00 | tomprince | So, I can't seem to be able to log in to google-moderator (even though I am logged in elsewere on google) |
| 22:02.26 | carols | strange, i haven't gotten anyone else with that issue. |
| 22:03.13 | carols | i'm not signed into any google account and i can access it. |
| 22:03.34 | tomprince | I can see it, but I can't vote. |
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| 22:05.46 | kblin | hey carols :) |
| 22:05.51 | carols | hey kblin :-) |
| 22:06.52 | kblin | carols: how's life on your side of the pond? |
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| 22:07.41 | carols | kblin: it's good, thanks. just super busy. |
| 22:07.44 | carols | how are you? |
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| 22:09.47 | kblin | sounds familiar, about the same here :) |
| 22:10.13 | carols | and i'm seeing you at the mentor summit this year? |
| 22:10.41 | kblin | yeah, I've booked the flight some days ago and the hotel is confirmed :) |
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| 22:12.44 | carols | awesome! |
| 22:12.48 | carols | it will be good to see you :-) |
| 22:12.52 | kblin | There's some chocolate I need to bring along :) |
| 22:13.02 | carols | i *just* emailed rob about that today |
| 22:13.12 | carols | it appears as the mentor summit nears we get chocolate on the brain :-) |
| 22:13.25 | kblin | :) |
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