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| 13:06.59 | tachyons | is away: Away |
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| 13:20.06 | VarunAgw_ | !logs |
| 13:20.06 | gsocbot | VarunAgw_: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
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| 14:11.33 | carols | serves some tea and coffee |
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| 14:26.41 | jenmylo | carols: Around? |
| 14:26.46 | carols | jenmylo: yes. |
| 14:26.52 | jenmylo | carols: ok to pm? |
| 14:26.56 | carols | sure, thanks. |
| 14:26.58 | jenmylo | thanks |
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| 16:45.15 | downey | carols: howdy. around? |
| 16:45.21 | carols | downey: howdy, yes |
| 16:45.27 | downey | carols: privmsg? |
| 16:45.30 | carols | sure |
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| 17:00.46 | tachyons | .timeline |
| 17:00.56 | tachyons | !timeline |
| 17:00.57 | gsocbot | tachyons: "timeline" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2014 |
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| 18:21.37 | bond007 | Hi, Anyone around? |
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| 18:22.43 | teepee | 372 irc clients |
| 18:23.46 | bond007 | 372 irc client: I was wondering is it common to have big troubles estimating time required to implement each feature by students |
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| 18:24.36 | teepee | sound like pretty much one of the default problems in software project management ;) |
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| 18:25.09 | thiago | bond007: it's very hard to estimate time required to implement each feature, period |
| 18:25.19 | thiago | students, hobbyists, professionals, experts, gurus |
| 18:26.02 | bond007 | but mine case was very horrible. Actually I need to work with API's that I don't know about. I have to learn them side by side |
| 18:26.21 | thiago | you're the student? |
| 18:26.26 | bond007 | yes |
| 18:26.29 | teepee | yes, that makes it even hard |
| 18:26.30 | thiago | talk to your mentor |
| 18:26.41 | thiago | better to have identified this now rather than half-way through the project |
| 18:26.42 | teepee | harder* |
| 18:26.49 | bond007 | so, I was not even to make some educated guess. Is it common? |
| 18:27.02 | thiago | you're supposed to make an educated guess |
| 18:27.14 | thiago | but everyone working in software development knows it's a *guess* |
| 18:27.18 | teepee | yep, if there are big chunks of problems, make them smaller |
| 18:27.24 | thiago | and more so when coming from students who, by the very definition, lack experience |
| 18:28.15 | teepee | all people know it's lot of guess work, in the industry most management people do ignore it nevertheless |
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| 18:28.45 | teepee | but checking with the mentor is the best way anyway, as he should know about the topic quite well |
| 18:28.57 | teepee | (or she of cause) |
| 18:29.21 | bond007 | teepee: but in my case I am making guess about somethings that I have very little/no knowledge about |
| 18:29.35 | bond007 | and yeah mentors are very helpful |
| 18:29.51 | teepee | bond007: yeah, so try to acquire as much knowledge as possible in short time |
| 18:30.16 | bond007 | yeah, I am trying to learn as much as I can these days |
| 18:31.18 | teepee | split the problems into parts that are not much more than a couple of days in your first estimation |
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| 18:32.04 | bond007 | ok, thanks for help. Just one last question: Does situation like me are common or not? no? |
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| 18:32.42 | teepee | happens in every project that has any sort of restricted time frame |
| 18:32.53 | bond007 | ok, thanks |
| 18:33.02 | teepee | which might cover 97.356% (roughly) ;) |
| 18:33.22 | bond007 | oh, that's quite high |
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| 18:33.57 | teepee | points to the smiley... |
| 18:35.29 | bond007 | :) |
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| 18:41.21 | bond007 | teepee: btw, I was having one more question. |
| 18:41.41 | bond007 | GSoC work should be roughly 40 hours per week. right? |
| 18:41.55 | teepee | I think that's the normal expectation, yes |
| 18:42.33 | bond007 | teepee: So, if one person take thrice the time required by other to do the same work, how it explains this? |
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| 18:43.21 | teepee | there is no requirement that all students must do the same amount of work |
| 18:43.22 | bond007 | should the one guy work 120 hours a week or the other guy should work 13 hours a week |
| 18:43.49 | PulkoMandy | none of the above |
| 18:43.57 | bond007 | PulkoMandy: then? |
| 18:44.05 | brlcad | there are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors |
| 18:44.06 | PulkoMandy | they both should work about 40 hours, and one of them will get "more" work done |
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| 18:44.28 | PulkoMandy | it's hard to tell what's more work anyway |
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| 18:44.41 | PulkoMandy | some people can write a lot of lines of buggy and unreadable code |
| 18:45.01 | PulkoMandy | and some will spend a lot of time thinkingm but then build a very short piece of code with good comments, that works right |
| 18:45.06 | PulkoMandy | who did more work? |
| 18:45.27 | teepee | if the result is not the same, it's not even possible to compare ;) |
| 18:45.40 | teepee | but it does not matter too much anyway |
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| 18:46.21 | brlcad | bond007: you can take entire classes on methods for estimating time (even when you very have little experience or background in what is is you're estimating) |
| 18:46.44 | bond007 | they are classes? |
| 18:46.52 | brlcad | it's usually quite possible to come up with a very accurate estimate when you break a problem down into very small steps |
| 18:47.16 | brlcad | the smaller the better |
| 18:48.17 | brlcad | try to identify absolutely everything you'll think you'll need to accomplish, put a time on each of them in terms of days or weeks |
| 18:48.35 | brlcad | then for the biggest times, think about why they are big .. what subtasks can they be broken up into |
| 18:48.46 | brlcad | given those subtasks times |
| 18:48.58 | PulkoMandy | brlcad: that works well, but in some cases doing the estimation will need more time than getting the work done |
| 18:49.00 | brlcad | and so on, until you've accounted for everything you can thing of |
| 18:49.35 | bond007 | brlcad: yes, I think that will work. Thanks |
| 18:49.36 | brlcad | PulkoMandy: that's BS (I mean I respectfully disagree) ;) |
| 18:49.55 | teepee | PulkoMandy: I've seen that a lot in companies, but that's because of how they make it complicated, not because of the estimation itself |
| 18:50.06 | brlcad | for gsoc work, I wouldn't break a task down to less than a couple days work |
| 18:50.51 | brlcad | usually when something has a big time assigned to it, it's because there's a big "I don't know" involved |
| 18:51.08 | brlcad | some unknown, some research that needs to happen, some code reading or debugging or whatever |
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| 18:52.46 | brlcad | breaking those uknowns up into subtasks can be hard, but only because doing a task decomposition is actually some of the first steps in making that unknown known |
| 18:55.12 | brlcad | add a research phase: how long will you be reading websites, how much code do you have to try and comprehend; a testing phase, time for discussion, time for refactoring, time for whatever you can think of |
| 18:55.18 | brlcad | show that to your mentor and get feedback |
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| 18:55.49 | brlcad | more than likely, if you spend that hour (and this really shouldn't take much more than that), you'll usually end up with a decent estimate |
| 18:56.51 | bond007 | hmm |
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| 19:03.58 | brlcad | bond007: unless you've done this before (several times), you will almost certainly either 1) forget to include some tasks that take time or 2) assign unrealistically optimistic time estimates |
| 19:04.20 | brlcad | those are the two biggest sources of time estimation error, and they obviously go hand-in-hand |
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| 19:06.30 | brlcad | I suggest asking your mentor to review the task breakdown to see what you might have forgotten, recognizing that they also may be inexperienced in time estimation (too optimistic or forgetting tasks (or not considering them important)), but most importantly having a dialog with them so you are both on the same page of understanding and expectation |
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| 19:10.12 | bond007 | ok, thanks for you advise |
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