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| 14:24.56 | sachith500 | .karma |
| 14:25.03 | sachith500 | whoops sorry |
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| 18:09.02 | downey | bumps into bkuhn at Alice's Restaurant |
| 18:09.19 | bkuhn | downey: I was wondering if anyone would get that reference. |
| 18:09.23 | downey | :) |
| 18:09.58 | bkuhn | When I was 16 years old, I memorized the entirety of the Alice's Restaurant Massacre (in four part harmony, and with feeling.) |
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| 18:11.04 | downey | is inspired to go listen again |
| 18:11.28 | bkuhn | Many people listen to it every year on Thanksgiving day. |
| 18:11.49 | bkuhn | When I was growing up, there was a radio station in Baltimore that played every Thanksgiving day morning. That's how I first heard it. |
| 18:11.55 | bkuhn | is also old. ;) |
| 18:13.17 | downey | i think i heard it first the same way |
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| 18:16.19 | bkuhn | downey: I didn't realize that was a thing that happened elsewhere. |
| 18:16.30 | bkuhn | I thought it was something specific about the DJ of the rock station where I grew up. |
| 18:17.13 | downey | guess so :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice's_Restaurant#Response |
| 18:17.14 | bkuhn | Years later, I worked with someone once who was an extra in the movie. |
| 18:17.26 | downey | nice |
| 18:17.27 | gitanshu | We made a little online ctf event for techfest. You might like to give it a shot: http://www.hackcon.in/ |
| 18:18.24 | downey | gitanshu: what am i signing in to see? |
| 18:18.39 | downey | i'm pretty selective about who I give oAuth credentials to :-) |
| 18:20.05 | gitanshu | It's a 'capture the flag' event some of my friends made. SQLi, some crypto, some get post manipulation etc |
| 18:20.27 | gitanshu | downey: ^ |
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| 19:37.47 | JordiGH | So we have a student that was just more or less completely neglected the whole summer. |
| 19:37.56 | JordiGH | We kind of failed him as a community. |
| 19:38.15 | JordiGH | I guess we'll be banned from GSoC, if it happens again? |
| 19:39.11 | meflin | how the heck does that even happen |
| 19:39.17 | meflin | umbrella? |
| 19:39.19 | JordiGH | No. |
| 19:39.34 | JordiGH | Mentor wasn't available, org admin didn't know wasn't informed... |
| 19:39.41 | JordiGH | didn't know or wasn't informed... |
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| 19:40.09 | tachyons | JordiGH, then how he/she passed midterm evaluation ? |
| 19:40.23 | JordiGH | The mentor thought the project was going well. |
| 19:40.35 | JordiGH | I don't know. |
| 19:40.43 | JordiGH | It's pretty disastrous. |
| 19:40.44 | meflin | fire the mentor |
| 19:40.56 | meflin | with a giant can of woop-ass |
| 19:40.57 | JordiGH | Well, they aren't on payroll. |
| 19:41.09 | meflin | I've never been on the payroll :P |
| 19:41.12 | JordiGH | The mentor is the lead dev, heh. It's like firing Linus from Linux. |
| 19:41.14 | meflin | you can still fire them from gsoc |
| 19:41.24 | JordiGH | Sure, next year, perhaps. |
| 19:41.33 | meflin | If my mentor was Linus I would still fire him from gsoc |
| 19:42.42 | tachyons | +1 |
| 19:42.49 | meflin | based on what you say mentor thought it was going well == couldn't be bothered to know |
| 19:43.10 | JordiGH | Watch the flames burn: http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Fwd-Re-Fwd-Considering-adding-a-dispatch-function-for-compile-time-polymorphism-tp4665988p4666073.html |
| 19:43.37 | JordiGH | So, it's a total disaster. What's gonna happen now? |
| 19:44.12 | meflin | well that is an interesting question |
| 19:44.33 | meflin | I guess you should fail the student ... but its not like its the students fault .... hmm |
| 19:44.36 | meflin | back in 5 |
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| 19:45.34 | ashmew2 | JordiGH, you can probably work something out if the student is willing to put more time into the project after GSoC if thats a possibility for you or your org to mentor for a few months |
| 19:45.53 | JordiGH | Uh, would Google allow that? |
| 19:45.58 | JordiGH | They need a batch of code soon. |
| 19:47.11 | ashmew2 | JordiGH, afaik, the ultimate aim is to bond the students and orgs together so that FOSS benefits |
| 19:47.38 | ashmew2 | JordiGH, so even if you submit a small (negligilbe?) code sample right now and still get an active participant, what's the harm :) |
| 19:48.08 | gevaerts | Is there code? Did things get stuck at the first bit of code, or didthe student go on, and there's a big block of code that just happens not to be in a form the organisation likes? |
| 19:48.39 | JordiGH | There's code, I think it works, just seems like a big hairy mess that the mentor doesn't really like but hasn't been following along. |
| 19:48.47 | JordiGH | I think. |
| 19:49.05 | JordiGH | I'm getting most of this second-hand, haven't actually looked at the code myself either. I promised to not get involved in GSoC this year. |
| 19:49.08 | ashmew2 | You can always make it merge ready. |
| 19:49.29 | downey | As an org admin, it's good practice go get regular feedback from every student and mentor, to help prevent those kind of things. We use a short form, submitted weekly. |
| 19:49.48 | JordiGH | I understand the mentor or the student or both think that reworking the code is impossible. |
| 19:49.53 | JordiGH | The student is really angry. |
| 19:49.54 | gevaerts | If that's the status, I'd consider passing the student and trying not to have such things happen again |
| 19:50.22 | gevaerts | Code being merged is *not* a requirement for passing |
| 19:51.02 | JordiGH | Well, submitting code to Google is. |
| 19:51.08 | gevaerts | Well yes |
| 19:51.28 | JordiGH | We could submit the big ugly hairball. |
| 19:51.32 | gevaerts | But they'll take anything, even if it doesn't match your project's style and quality guidelines :) |
| 19:51.38 | JordiGH | Well, it's a medium-sized hairball that hasn't really grown since the midterm. |
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| 19:52.09 | gevaerts | Has it *changed* though, or has the student basically given up at midterm? |
| 19:52.48 | JordiGH | No, he kept tweaking it here and there. |
| 19:53.01 | JordiGH | Nice thing about hg: we have all of the tweaks despite the rebases. :-) |
| 19:53.28 | downey | If the student lost contact with the mentor after midterm, did he or she contact the org admin for help? |
| 19:53.53 | JordiGH | I don't think he was even sure who the org admin was. |
| 19:54.23 | downey | ... |
| 19:54.43 | JordiGH | Yeah, he contacted the admin. |
| 19:54.47 | JordiGH | Around the midterm. |
| 19:56.12 | tachyons | JordiGH, send a mail to carols |
| 19:57.09 | brlcad | sounds *really* fishy ... I have trouble buying that someone was putting forth effort for 40 hours a week and it's entirely the mentor's fault they have nothing to show |
| 19:57.17 | downey | right |
| 19:57.17 | brlcad | week after week |
| 19:57.31 | tachyons | JordiGH, carols@google.com |
| 19:57.34 | JordiGH | There were conflicts of personality too. |
| 19:57.36 | JordiGH | I think. |
| 19:57.38 | JordiGH | I don't know. |
| 19:57.49 | gevaerts | brlcad: it doesn't sound as "they have nothing to show" to me |
| 19:58.11 | downey | The only way I wouldn't fail the student would be if the org admin was negligent in fixing the problem after being informed about it. |
| 19:58.28 | downey | even in that case, the student should have contacted the gsoc team if they were truly concerned |
| 19:58.40 | gevaerts | nods |
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| 19:58.58 | JordiGH | I really don't have all of the details, but the student doesn't seem like a slacker. |
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| 19:59.26 | gevaerts | Still, I think failing a student *just* for not escalating problems quickly enough seems unreasonable to me |
| 20:00.19 | brlcad | the fact that they're "really angry" could just as easily be defensive projection of their inability to deliver on their project proposal |
| 20:00.36 | gevaerts | True |
| 20:00.57 | downey | "not quickly enough", maybe unreasoable ... "not at all" (and fumbling around for half the program) completely reasonable |
| 20:01.02 | gevaerts | But then the code is there to be looked at, so that can be evaluated |
| 20:01.05 | brlcad | I try to make it a point to tell all our students that their success rides with them and them alone .. the mentors are to assist and accellerate their progress, but not be requirement in their success |
| 20:01.08 | downey | but these are generalizations, and not really useful in the specific case here :) |
| 20:01.49 | JordiGH | There are 5 commits here, 430 if you count obsolete commits. |
| 20:02.14 | brlcad | their coding progress shouldn't matter .. did they put forth genuine effort that resembles working full time on their project? |
| 20:02.28 | downey | brlcad: yep |
| 20:02.31 | brlcad | perhaps a daily log |
| 20:02.33 | downey | brlcad: err, agreed |
| 20:02.38 | gevaerts | Well |
| 20:03.05 | downey | brlcad: much more important is coding and communication effort |
| 20:03.33 | gevaerts | If "code needs to get a positive review by the mentor" is a success criterion, and the mentor can't be bothered to review the code, that's not "their success rides with them and them alone" |
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| 20:04.25 | JordiGH | brlcad: Judging by all of obsolete commits, there was a lot of work done. |
| 20:04.27 | brlcad | I don't fail a student for completely failing at estimation and proper scope (that would be a mentor failing to identify that mismatch), but they are failed if they don't have activity to the level of their peers and expected of the program (i.e., approx. full-time effort) |
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| 20:04.59 | downey | if i sat around on my job waiting for something from someone, and didn't do any more work until that happened, i'd get fired. :) |
| 20:05.15 | downey | anyway it doesn't sound like that's the case here |
| 20:05.34 | JordiGH | Well, what if that someone won't accept your patches at all and keeps in your opinion annoying you with pointless requests to fix minor things? |
| 20:05.40 | meflin | well you to remember that these are kids's .. somone needs to teach them that lesson downey ;) |
| 20:06.15 | downey | meflin: that's right, and that's why we fail people who fail to communicate regularly after being instructed to do so :) |
| 20:06.30 | meflin | not that after ... this seems not to be the case |
| 20:06.33 | brlcad | JordiGH: you mean the student wouldn't accept patches? |
| 20:06.41 | brlcad | that's a huge red flag right there |
| 20:06.48 | meflin | s/not/note/ |
| 20:06.49 | JordiGH | brlcad: There was a lot arguing back and forth about how to do things. |
| 20:06.56 | JordiGH | brlcad: I don't really know who's right or wrong. |
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| 20:07.18 | meflin | arguing between the student and mentor? |
| 20:07.22 | JordiGH | I only paid attention to one technical point made by the student about C++ which seemd wrong to me. |
| 20:07.26 | JordiGH | Yes, arguing between the two of them. |
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| 20:07.43 | brlcad | so yeah, the admin should have stepped in on that ... |
| 20:07.52 | downey | yep |
| 20:07.58 | downey | (if they were aware) |
| 20:08.09 | meflin | agreed ... but also at some point the mentors word is god |
| 20:09.14 | brlcad | meflin: I disagree, the mentor can (and will) be wrong .. but again that's where it has to escalate per that community's resolution process (meritocracy? individual dev rule? project leader?) |
| 20:09.26 | brlcad | and per gsoc, that buck stops with the admin |
| 20:09.33 | meflin | not disagreeing with that :) |
| 20:09.49 | brlcad | (who may or may not be beholden to another project lead or other community requirements) |
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| 20:10.20 | downey | if the student didn't know the org admin, then the org admin failed. if the student did know the org admin, and didn't inform the org admin about the problems, then the student (probably) failed. if the mentor was in fact treating students disrespectfully, then the mentor should "fail" (not be invited back) |
| 20:10.24 | downey | (IMHO) |
| 20:11.07 | meflin | well or if the mentor just threw up there hands and walked away without informing the admin ( and should have informed the admin of any problems ) |
| 20:12.24 | gevaerts | I don't think it matters much if it's the admin or the mentor who failed |
| 20:12.31 | brlcad | still, while long-term useless, I disruptive/incompatible student could technically still pass gsoc if they put forth full time effort towards their goal |
| 20:12.36 | gevaerts | It's the student or the organisation (or both) |
| 20:12.37 | brlcad | they don't have to like them or agree with them |
| 20:13.08 | downey | gevaerts: yes, not mutually exclusive. everyone could have failed. :) |
| 20:13.12 | meflin | probably what maters most at this time is if the student should pass/fail |
| 20:13.17 | brlcad | JordiGH: so you said he put forth a lot of effort .. was it sustained over the duration? is there evidence of that week after week? |
| 20:13.40 | gevaerts | Of course, if it's the organisation, it's a good idea to find out what went wrong for next time :) |
| 20:14.02 | JordiGH | brlcad: Yeah, there's a steady stream of edited commits to show this (rebased, in git-speak). |
| 20:14.04 | meflin | process can always be improved and should be |
| 20:14.06 | brlcad | definitely, there's some big post mortem introspection needed in that community |
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| 20:15.01 | brlcad | JordiGH: so if the *effort* was substantial, he should probably get passed and the two parties part their separate ways |
| 20:15.05 | meflin | heh that reminds me I need to get started on my anual ... we could have done this better list |
| 20:15.24 | brlcad | of if there's any hope of reconciliation, a discussion needs to be had with the student about their behavior |
| 20:15.48 | downey | meflin: just sent out our annual survey to students, and writing the one for mentors |
| 20:16.04 | brlcad | downey: could I get a copy of your survey? |
| 20:16.13 | meflin | I would like one as well :) |
| 20:16.16 | downey | brlcad: sure, let me see how best to do that (it's on surveymonkey) |
| 20:16.20 | brlcad | is still envious of your "crm" :) |
| 20:16.28 | downey | would rather not have spurious data :) |
| 20:16.34 | meflin | mostly I interview ppl on irc ... but the big org this year that isn't going to happen |
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| 20:19.41 | downey | https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PN7GF79 (this is a copy so i won't be worried about responses) |
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| 20:21.37 | brlcad | thanks |
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