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| 01:18.59 | cpg | can someone point me to the rules when an org fails a student? |
| 01:19.31 | cpg | i am looking through https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/rules/ |
| 01:19.52 | cpg | we have a student that is proving to be on the fence |
| 01:46.17 | Robert_S | What do you mean by rules? Have you read all the emails with instructiosn about evaluations? iirc Stephanie sent one out with some guidance. There's also been discussions on the mentor list. |
| 01:48.02 | cpg | i read all emails, though we never have been in a position contemplating failing a student (we always got lots of applicants and very good students), so i tuned that part out |
| 01:48.16 | Robert_S | Go back and re-read it? :) |
| 01:48.51 | Robert_S | For specific questions, where you want Google input, you should email support. |
| 01:49.00 | cpg | no |
| 01:49.10 | cpg | i just wanted a quick summary of the implications |
| 01:49.17 | Robert_S | If you fail them, they're out. |
| 01:49.20 | cpg | is the students continuing after a fail? |
| 01:49.22 | cpg | ok |
| 01:49.37 | cpg | and he does not get the stipend, i assum |
| 01:49.38 | Robert_S | But you really should go back and read the stuff so that you can be consistent with everyone else. |
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| 10:14.30 | matthewwilkes | Sometimes I think that the thing GSoC teaches more than anything else is for open source contributors to identify failure |
| 10:14.56 | panzone_ | what do you mean? |
| 10:17.25 | matthewwilkes | The amount of reticence about failing a student, especially from new mentors and orgs, is quite amazing sometimes. Even when it's a slam-dunk people want to give the student another chance, and believe everything will get better. Identifying failure and dealing with it in a timely way is an important skill. |
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| 21:35.11 | olly | matthewwilkes: fail early, fail often |
| 21:36.01 | olly | or the more literary "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better" (Beckett) |
| 21:38.03 | Valodim | but also "Fail in a way that doesn't kill you." |
| 21:39.40 | olly | that just weeds out the less successful universes |
| 21:45.06 | olly | i think the nub of the issue is probably that taken in isolation, an individual pass/fail decision appears to have more possible upside for "give them another chance", plus less unpleasant confrontation |
| 21:45.41 | olly | though actually we've had at least one failed student stay involved, and I've heard other orgs have too |
| 21:46.23 | Valodim | I also have one of these ambiguous situations on my hand, again :( |
| 21:47.00 | Valodim | the student didn't make progress in ten days, and when I asked him about it his reason was a car accident of his mother and he hadn't noticed the days went by so fast and whatnot |
| 21:47.10 | meflin | if the student is a clear pass its problly a fail |
| 21:47.22 | meflin | "fun" is when the mentor is an issue |
| 21:47.25 | olly | missing not there? |
| 21:47.42 | Robert_S | Valodim: did they let you know they had an issue early in the 10 days? |
| 21:47.48 | Valodim | no |
| 21:47.52 | meflin | gsoc is the leading cause of dead grandma's |
| 21:48.09 | olly | i was just trying to remember who pointed that out |
| 21:48.13 | Valodim | his previous progress was acceptable, but not stellar. I have asked him to give daily reports since then, which he has been doing, but on a sort of weird schedule |
| 21:48.52 | Robert_S | communication up front is important, it can fix a lot of things. |
| 21:49.02 | Valodim | I'll wait and see for the remaining two days of evaluation period. hope he gives me reason to pass him |
| 21:49.14 | terri | in our case, we've had more problems with mentors having to bow out than students. Much harder to deal with from an org admin perspective. |
| 21:49.36 | Valodim | communication up front makes it unnecesary to fix anything because things don't break then :) |
| 21:50.03 | meflin | once apon a time ( everone come next to fire and have a hot chocolate ) a student had 2 dead grandmas's |
| 21:50.22 | Robert_S | Valodim: Car accident still happened. Unless it was due to bad communication. |
| 21:50.28 | terri | this year it's been mentors, anyhow. at least none of the mentors has had a house burn down yet that I know of, which happened in a previous year. |
| 21:50.58 | Valodim | right, but if he had told me hey there's this thing I need a couple days, that would have been fine |
| 21:51.04 | meflin | terri: not your year but flooded .... I still mentored tho :P |
| 21:51.07 | Robert_S | Valodim: Exactly. |
| 21:51.08 | terri | Robert_S: my driving instructor two decades ago would have argued that all car accidents have bad communication at the root of them. ;) |
| 21:51.24 | Robert_S | terri: Exactly to that too. |
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| 21:51.51 | meflin | previous to such evens you should have a track record and comunication to judge by |
| 21:53.13 | terri | It is a bit harder with the extra eval: a week suddenly seems huge |
| 21:53.46 | Valodim | yeah definitely |
| 21:53.48 | meflin | I do have a complaint on that issue |
| 21:53.49 | Valodim | but I like the three evals |
| 21:54.00 | Robert_S | meflin: You always have a complaint. :) |
| 21:54.08 | meflin | Robert_S: NO :P |
| 21:54.37 | terri | I like the 3 evals, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to ask students to blog weekly because bi-weekly means I only see two blog posts per eval to sanity check hwo they're doing. |
| 21:55.36 | terri | Wish I'd realized that before I set the schedule! |
| 21:55.40 | Valodim | six weeks and then only a single point of evaluation during the project was just too long, and readjustment didn't work very well in my experience |
| 21:55.47 | meflin | rasies an eyebrow I guess we will have that fight in private |
| 21:56.45 | Robert_S | Aren't you agreeing? |
| 21:57.51 | meflin | terri: is 110% right so yes ;D |
| 21:58.37 | terri | He only agrees with me in public. ;) |
| 21:59.48 | meflin | the longer term is a better window into how things are going IMO ... altho my largest complaint is the short eval windows |
| 22:01.03 | terri | aw, it's not about how we can't edit evals any more? I miss that. |
| 22:01.11 | meflin | no |
| 22:01.41 | terri | I think I'll like the short evals once we get used to them, this year is just a bit hard 'cause we're not used to evaluating so littel so there's a whole lot of "meh" going on |
| 22:03.06 | Robert_S | meh |
| 22:04.12 | meflin | Robert_S: change something next year I'll complain about that as well :P |
| 22:05.38 | Robert_S | we'll try not to |
| 22:05.57 | terri | Robert_S: darn, I'd better change something to keep him busy then. ;) |
| 22:07.04 | meflin | Robert_S: I hate you |
| 22:07.19 | terri | Valodim: I hope the student pulls through, btw. I always wonder if it's more of a kindness to let people fail and get their lives back together if something big happens. |
| 22:08.04 | Valodim | yeah, same here :) |
| 22:08.04 | meflin | I have had a student pull thru tho that was post mid-term ( disapereed) |
| 22:08.18 | meflin | used the $ for a smart phone started writing apps |
| 22:08.39 | Valodim | if he makes it this time though I will be watching him very closely and his progress better be super great if he wants to pass the project as a whole! |
| 22:09.24 | Valodim | meflin: musta' been an expensive smartphone |
| 22:09.33 | Valodim | or do you mean from the old welcome bonus? |
| 22:09.43 | meflin | nope mid term |
| 22:09.53 | Valodim | musta' been an expensive smartphone |
| 22:10.31 | meflin | 2 weeks out came back the mentor put the beet down so hard "I" almost put a stop on it ... came back to 110% of project |
| 22:10.50 | meflin | mentored for me in later years |
| 22:11.01 | Valodim | heh. nice |
| 22:11.36 | Valodim | still, for each story like that there's probably hundreds of students that barely passed midterm on promises that were never kept |
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| 22:11.56 | meflin | oh I have those ... not story worthy |
| 22:12.13 | meflin | I will make it up ! I will make it up! |
| 22:12.20 | meflin | well no |
| 22:12.41 | meflin | barely passed ( convo I had today ) usualy ends badly |
| 22:13.47 | meflin | fail early and fail often is very hard when you always are looking how how you did not mentor at 150% |
| 22:14.57 | Valodim | also even an underperforming student is still a student that might produce incomplete results, compared to failing and no student at all |
| 22:15.16 | Valodim | the incentives are quite complex and weird with gsoc mentoring :) |
| 22:16.34 | meflin | like life it is complicated ... for that one tho |
| 22:17.21 | meflin | hard working student who will be part of the comunity who is perhaps producing at 50% of hope? |
| 22:18.05 | meflin | student who is %75% who is self-isolating working for the pass? meh |
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| 22:37.31 | anthom | It's interesting to read about the org side :p As a student GSoC has been new challenges, friends and cool new skills. |
| 22:37.33 | anthom | And the two evaluations until now are a very good occasion to see a milestone of the project and assess progress, I love the three evaluations process. |
| 22:37.55 | anthom | +so far (has been so far new challenges, ...) |
| 22:43.16 | olly | i think 3 is better, but they do seem to whip around quickly |
| 22:47.23 | Valodim | at least this change seems to be unanimously appreciated |
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