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| 06:16.53 | mandeep | do organizations get to choose multiple students, or are they only able to select one? |
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| 06:22.01 | laks | help |
| 06:22.12 | laks | HELP |
| 06:22.20 | mandeep | ? |
| 06:22.54 | laks | what is this? |
| 06:23.18 | laks | can i get projects here? |
| 06:23.58 | mandeep | no |
| 06:25.17 | laks | what can we share here ideas? |
| 06:25.23 | laks | doubts? |
| 06:29.02 | valorie | laks: have you done your research? |
| 06:29.08 | valorie | this is an IRC channel |
| 06:29.20 | valorie | there are some students here, some mentors, some admins |
| 06:30.04 | valorie | mandeep: orgs are assigned "slots" according to how many great proposals they get, and how many mentors they have |
| 06:30.26 | valorie | laks: you need to be talking to your chosen org |
| 06:30.39 | valorie | fixing bugs, and working with them on your proposal |
| 06:31.45 | mandeep | valorie: gotcha |
| 06:32.10 | laks | I have not contributed to any projects |
| 06:32.21 | valorie | time to start is now then |
| 06:32.35 | laks | please tell |
| 06:32.45 | laks | where to start and how? |
| 06:32.46 | valorie | some orgs will accept proposals from those who have not yet contributed |
| 06:32.49 | valorie | KDE does not |
| 06:33.00 | laks | pls name any |
| 06:33.18 | valorie | our mentors look carefully at previous commits as part of their evaluation |
| 06:33.22 | laks | i have done only competative programming on hacker rank |
| 06:33.23 | valorie | laks: what? |
| 06:33.34 | valorie | you must follow your heart, your tastes |
| 06:33.41 | valorie | nobody can tell you that |
| 06:33.50 | laks | yeah |
| 06:34.00 | laks | i am following my hwart |
| 06:34.04 | laks | *heart |
| 06:34.06 | valorie | look over the orgs if you have not done that yet |
| 06:34.21 | valorie | chose one and dig in |
| 06:34.24 | mandeep | valorie: what/who determines a great proposal? |
| 06:34.31 | valorie | use the software and fix it! |
| 06:35.11 | valorie | the teams will look at how carefully the student has studied the issue, how they plan to move ahead, how complete their timeline is |
| 06:35.15 | valorie | etc. |
| 06:35.28 | valorie | we don't choose a proposal, we choose a student |
| 06:35.45 | valorie | in the case of KDE, we choose a future KDE developer |
| 06:36.10 | valorie | we want people who will stick with their project, support and improve their code |
| 06:42.23 | mandeep | i see |
| 06:42.53 | mandeep | valorie: with kde are gsoc students typically those with prior experience contributing to the project? |
| 06:43.27 | valorie | we require at least 2 commit links to be part of the proposal |
| 06:43.51 | mandeep | right, but generally do those picked have more than 2 commits? |
| 06:44.07 | valorie | so we know that the student can find the bug tracker, build an application, and analyze the code |
| 06:44.20 | valorie | some do, some don't |
| 06:44.24 | mandeep | i see |
| 06:44.44 | valorie | the issue isn't the experience, but the ability to figure things out |
| 06:45.30 | valorie | communication is key as well |
| 06:45.46 | valorie | we don't anyone struggling in silence |
| 06:50.48 | mandeep | true |
| 06:53.17 | valorie | in fact we've had to fail student who are coding well, but won't communicate |
| 06:53.36 | laks | really! |
| 06:53.37 | valorie | this is true in the working life as well |
| 06:53.45 | valorie | certainly |
| 06:53.51 | mandeep | ah that's a shame |
| 06:53.58 | valorie | working well with others is crucial |
| 06:53.59 | laks | @valorie are you a mentor |
| 06:54.05 | valorie | one of the admins |
| 06:54.12 | laks | ok |
| 06:54.17 | laks | and mandeep? |
| 06:54.19 | valorie | I've mentored for GCi (juniors) |
| 06:54.24 | valorie | but I'm not a programmer |
| 06:54.29 | mandeep | laks: im just a student |
| 06:54.44 | laks | ok |
| 06:54.46 | valorie | "just" |
| 06:54.53 | valorie | you all are the future! |
| 06:55.54 | laks | mandeep have you applied for Gsoc |
| 06:55.55 | laks | ? |
| 06:56.05 | mandeep | laks: i havent submitted my proposal yet |
| 06:56.28 | valorie | submit a draft ASAP |
| 06:56.32 | valorie | really |
| 06:56.38 | valorie | work with your team on it |
| 06:57.38 | laks | @ valorie what should i do now for Gsoc i have no experience to wright in proposal |
| 06:57.44 | mandeep | valorie: thanks ill do that tomorrow |
| 06:57.58 | valorie | you don't write about your experience |
| 06:58.04 | valorie | you write about what you plan to do |
| 06:58.14 | laks | I mean contribution |
| 06:58.25 | valorie | my best advice: make it good enough to guide you through the summer |
| 06:58.34 | valorie | use the software |
| 06:58.38 | valorie | fix the software |
| 06:58.44 | valorie | that's how you contribute |
| 06:58.46 | mandeep | do the organizations have the final say, or does google have to approve? |
| 06:58.52 | valorie | the orgs |
| 06:58.57 | valorie | in our case, the mentors |
| 06:59.08 | valorie | I mean, the admins can over rule, but we never do |
| 06:59.12 | valorie | or rarely |
| 06:59.17 | mandeep | i see |
| 06:59.33 | valorie | we tell Google what we want to do |
| 06:59.43 | valorie | they tell us how many student they can fund |
| 06:59.53 | valorie | then we make our final choices |
| 07:01.57 | laks | Which organization you are working for? |
| 07:02.04 | laks | kde? |
| 07:05.42 | valorie | yes |
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| 07:42.56 | polybar | Can I submit final draft as PDF and edit it afterwards? |
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| 20:37.48 | mandeep | is it okay to ask a project lead if there are certain projects that are of high priority? |
| 20:42.23 | valorie | high priority? |
| 20:42.27 | valorie | unsure what you mean |
| 20:42.46 | valorie | if there is a published idea, it means a mentor wants someone to do that thing |
| 20:43.32 | olly | if a project is genuinely high priority, you really wouldn't be trying to get it done via a gsoc project where there's a significant chance of the student dropping out or failing to complete for other reasons |
| 20:45.59 | olly | we do get asked about "priority" of projects sometimes - i can't speak for all orgs, but we certainly aren't selecting students based on any sort of priority of the ideas |
| 20:48.30 | valorie | us either |
| 20:48.48 | valorie | we look for good students, and a good pairing with the mentor and subject matter |
| 20:49.03 | valorie | but KDE is sort of an anarchist collective |
| 20:49.24 | valorie | so depending on who you ask, everyone has a different "high priority" |
| 20:49.45 | Mc | :) |
| 20:49.47 | valorie | with certain values in common such as freedom, privacy, user control |
| 20:50.07 | olly | mandeep: i think you're much better off trying to apply for a project you're genuinely interested in rather than trying to optimise for what you think might be selected |
| 20:50.14 | Mc | advancing open source is of very high priority |
| 20:50.15 | valorie | amen to that |
| 20:50.23 | valorie | look into your heart |
| 20:50.32 | olly | because genuine interest tends to shine through, and you have a much more fun time |
| 20:50.33 | valorie | what do you care about? |
| 20:50.54 | valorie | you can have a blast while working hard |
| 20:50.59 | valorie | if you choose aright |
| 20:53.35 | mandeep | olly: valorie: i think it's about trying to narrow down projects that im interested in |
| 20:54.02 | mandeep | for example for one organization almost all of their projects are really interesting to me. i can narrow it down to 2-3, but then dont know what to do from there |
| 20:54.17 | valorie | mandeep: well, at least you have the org |
| 20:54.27 | valorie | how many bugs have you fixed for them? |
| 20:54.42 | mandeep | valorie: i submitted a pr yesterday. still trying to fix some more today |
| 20:54.47 | olly | i'd ask them if they can suggest which is a better fit for you rather than about priorities as such |
| 20:54.50 | valorie | imo it's by getting your hands dirty that you learn what you like and what you don't |
| 20:54.55 | mandeep | olly: thanks that's a good idea |
| 20:55.23 | fundamental | I'd also recommend considering what skills you'd like to learn as each project likely provides different learning opertunities |
| 20:55.29 | valorie | some of the students seem so hesitant to fix a bug |
| 20:55.41 | valorie | dive in folks! |
| 20:55.52 | valorie | if the water isn't fine, there are other lakes |
| 20:57.47 | mandeep | valorie: im fixing bugs, it's just hard to narrow down interesting projects |
| 20:58.03 | mandeep | fundamental: yeah that's true, but do organizations really have the manpower to teach students new things? |
| 20:58.05 | fundamental | valorie: it's amazing to see the dropoff between students stating that they're interested and then not following up |
| 20:58.16 | valorie | there is the project itself |
| 20:58.16 | mandeep | yeah there does seem to be a lot of that |
| 20:58.23 | valorie | and then the team that you'll work with |
| 20:58.32 | valorie | imo both are equally important |
| 20:58.35 | mandeep | valorie: for a small organization it's mostly one mentor |
| 20:58.36 | fundamental | yeah, the project itself will provide learning opertunities in the sense of learning-by-doing |
| 20:58.58 | mandeep | fundamental: true, but you also need to have some experience i think |
| 20:58.59 | valorie | that's too bad |
| 20:59.12 | valorie | still, you'll be working closely with that person part of the time |
| 20:59.28 | mandeep | like you can't just write a proposal for a c++ project when you only know some dynamic language |
| 21:01.32 | olly | i think you'd struggle to learn a completely new language and complete a project in it within the gsoc timeframe |
| 21:02.06 | mandeep | olly: so if one wants to contribute to a c++ project, how much c++ should they know? |
| 21:02.11 | olly | you could probably go from having done some C++ courses at university to actually doing a project in it, which will involve learning a lot |
| 21:02.17 | olly | depends on the project and the org |
| 21:02.41 | mandeep | olly: yeah that's where i am right now, experience through coursework |
| 21:03.57 | olly | some are happier and more able to take someone with less experience, while for others you really need to be fairly proficient already to get anything useful done |
| 21:07.12 | valorie | this is why I always urge students to start "org shopping" as far in advance as possible |
| 21:07.31 | valorie | and by shopping I mean running the software and fixing some bugs |
| 21:07.41 | valorie | interact with the community |
| 21:07.45 | valorie | find your place |
| 21:08.42 | olly | and that's easier now as orgs are announced much earlier than they used to be |
| 21:09.03 | valorie | sure, but experience is experience |
| 21:09.23 | valorie | doing the things with a non-GSoC org is good |
| 21:09.51 | valorie | ideally students would be doing this all during high school |
| 21:09.58 | valorie | and maybe before! |
| 21:10.00 | olly | true, but students tend to be more reluctant to and I can understand that |
| 21:10.11 | valorie | which is why I'm a big proponent of GCi |
| 21:10.43 | Mc | GCI has quite an high bar to enter for small org though :/ |
| 21:10.50 | valorie | true |
| 21:10.51 | olly | you're also likely to get more attention in February than this week when most students turn up and things are hectic |
| 21:11.00 | cbilt | hmm, i was too shy/intimidated to do any public work as a teenager |
| 21:11.01 | Mc | (but I agree it looks very useful to students) |
| 21:11.39 | olly | the problem with GCI for me is that it extends into summer holiday season here... |
| 21:12.15 | valorie | and into winter hols here |
| 21:12.50 | valorie | there should be more umbrella orgs so little once can get involved more easily |
| 21:13.03 | valorie | I wouldn't like to be the umbrella org admin though! |
| 21:13.29 | fundamental | yeah, the underlying problem is setting up for various events is a fair amount of work |
| 21:13.40 | valorie | I found it easier for KDE to do this year after a few years of experience |
| 21:14.06 | valorie | *and* this year we made a big push to get GSoC students to commit to being GCi mentors |
| 21:14.21 | valorie | not a whole lot did, but those who did were great |
| 21:14.52 | valorie | I found the key for that was starting to tell the GSoC students about it mid-program |
| 21:15.00 | valorie | so by the end it wasn't a new thought |
| 21:15.03 | Mc | valorie: it would be weird for students, I think : getting used to a codebase is quite long and that would mean working a lot for "one (umbrella) org" owoule mean investing time into looking at several codebases ? |
| 21:15.22 | valorie | Mc: for what? |
| 21:15.26 | valorie | GCi? |
| 21:15.31 | olly | both our successful gsoc students from last year are signed up to mentor this year |
| 21:15.39 | Mc | gci with umbrella orgs |
| 21:15.56 | valorie | Mc: not all the GCi tasks are coding |
| 21:16.05 | olly | you could presumably focus on tasks for one sub-org |
| 21:16.33 | valorie | and those that are are things like writing unit tests or other such small pesky things |
| 21:16.43 | Mc | ah, true |
| 21:16.47 | olly | after all KDE is already an umbrella for GCI isn't it? it just doesn't umbrella for arbitrary suborgs |
| 21:16.56 | valorie | sort of, yes |
| 21:17.07 | valorie | lots and lots of teams and sub-teams |
| 21:17.14 | Mc | maybe I should try to get Inkscape into GCi |
| 21:17.27 | valorie | like kde-games, kde-edu |
| 21:17.39 | valorie | which have lots of smaller projects in them |
| 21:17.40 | Mc | (but I'm afraid it might mean too much work for the current contributors) |
| 21:17.55 | valorie | Mc: we'd love to see inkscape join |
| 21:18.30 | valorie | so many artists use inkscape *and* krita for example |
| 21:18.34 | olly | i helped out a bit with admin for debian's gci (or maybe ghop) one year and it was pretty intense |
| 21:18.37 | Mc | we do need many small things like unit tests, documentation, and examples/tutorials |
| 21:19.19 | valorie | olly: in the first year I was super-intense |
| 21:19.20 | Mc | are there example of relatively small volunteer-only orgs that were successful in GCi ? |
| 21:19.35 | valorie | last year felt much more relaxed |
| 21:19.44 | valorie | perhaps because we took that year before that off |
| 21:20.03 | valorie | Mc: KDE is all volunteer for the most part |
| 21:20.15 | fundamental | If it wasn't for the time needed to intially setup the idea list for GSoD, that could also be a nice event for smaller orgs |
| 21:20.24 | valorie | even the paid devels do things like GSoC and GCi as vols |
| 21:20.57 | valorie | but I can't call us small |
| 21:21.01 | valorie | lol |
| 21:21.03 | Mc | ^^ |
| 21:23.26 | valorie | olly: one of the reasons it seemed more relaxed IMO is that there were more participating orgs |
| 21:23.33 | intrigus | I've never heard of GCI until I've been to old to participate. |
| 21:23.38 | valorie | so the student load was a bit more spread out |
| 21:23.41 | Mc | it's a relatively recent program |
| 21:23.54 | valorie | yes, it started small |
| 21:23.58 | valorie | maybe 6 orgs |
| 21:24.04 | valorie | and gosh, that was something |
| 21:24.10 | valorie | and I was just a mentor |
| 21:24.28 | valorie | it felt all-enveloping |
| 21:24.31 | intrigus | Mc: Not that recent. I could have applied while in school. (Had I had known about it) |
| 21:24.52 | valorie | dunno why teachers don't twig to it |
| 21:24.56 | valorie | and spread the word |
| 21:25.02 | valorie | and urge their students to do |
| 21:25.11 | valorie | so many are clueless about FOSS |
| 21:25.16 | valorie | sadly |
| 21:25.25 | valorie | Americans at least |
| 21:26.00 | Mc | many teachers are clueless about software in general |
| 21:26.33 | valorie | amen |
| 21:26.40 | mandeep | true |
| 21:26.53 | valorie | but then I grew up when it was still punchcards and a computer took up a whole room |
| 21:26.58 | valorie | <--- grandma |
| 21:29.19 | olly | one of my teachers referred to copyleft back in the 1980s, though I'm not entirely sure if he meant it in the Free Software sense |
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| 21:36.21 | Mc | valorie: Is there any place we can ask e.g. kde for help in planning gci if we participate ? In what timeframe do you think we should start thinking about it ? |
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| 22:13.08 | r0bby | Mc: GCI in 2017 was so not fun at all for me -- burned myself out and flamed out to the point where students witnessed it happening |
| 22:13.21 | r0bby | er 2018? |
| 22:13.25 | r0bby | I can't remember anymore |
| 22:14.05 | r0bby | this year, it wasn't that bad as I learned what happened and how to prevent it -- when I felt it coming on -- I took a break |
| 22:14.54 | r0bby | Mc: I would strongly recommend you have >1 active org admin -- because without it -- you WILL burn out. |
| 22:15.05 | r0bby | GSoC isn't intense but GCI is |
| 22:15.25 | olly | you really want more than one just for redundancy |
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| 22:19.56 | Mc | and for mentors ? |
| 22:39.59 | valorie | Mc: always good to have some teams |
| 22:40.24 | valorie | even if someone isn't *expert* they can give the student some immediate feedback |
| 22:40.36 | valorie | by immediate I mean within some hours |
| 22:46.46 | Mc | "teams" ? |
| 22:55.31 | valorie | the group developing the software |
| 22:55.36 | valorie | not just the maintainer |
| 22:55.49 | valorie | or other devels familiar enough to help out |
| 22:56.07 | valorie | we like the person adding the task to add some other devels |
| 22:56.29 | valorie | otherwise us admins try to greet the students and urge them along |
| 22:56.58 | valorie | but I'm no coder, so that's about all I can do, beyond ping the devels if they have ignored their emails |
| 22:59.34 | Mc | yes, yes, but I was curious about how many people (mentors ? devs?) you think may be needed for answering gci students |
| 22:59.51 | Mc | to have an idea if we have that kind of manpower at all ^^ |
| 23:00.29 | Mc | (is there a term like "peoplepower" ? manpower feels like there's only men) |
| 23:01.54 | valorie | how about "people" |
| 23:01.57 | valorie | lol |
| 23:02.00 | valorie | we all have power |
| 23:02.33 | valorie | best to have at least 2, especially from different TZs |
| 23:02.49 | Mc | ok, we have that :D |
| 23:02.57 | valorie | but that's not always possible even in a big org like KDE where about half the devels are in Europe |
| 23:03.05 | valorie | maybe over half |
| 23:03.36 | valorie | one of the reasons it was so cool to get some GSoC students involved as mentors |
| 23:04.42 | Mc | I think this year we will have one gsoc student who plans to stay around :) |
| 23:07.08 | valorie | :-) |
| 23:07.21 | valorie | I'm reasonably sure we have at least one |
| 23:07.42 | valorie | he's already embedded himself and even helps out his main competitor |
| 23:07.51 | valorie | which I really love to see |
| 23:08.35 | Mc | nice! |
| 23:10.38 | valorie | I hope there are others that have been getting involved in the teams, and not where I can see 'em |
| 23:24.36 | *** join/#gsoc Remote_ (86138185@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.19.129.133) |
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| 23:25.57 | Remote_ | Is there anybody here? |
| 23:26.28 | blast007 | yep |
| 23:27.19 | Remote_ | Great! I just cannot get where we can contact mentors and finally I am here :) |
| 23:28.27 | Remote_ | Has someone received a response from mentors via email contact? |
| 23:28.54 | olly | many students have |
| 23:29.04 | olly | which org are you trying to contact? |
| 23:29.33 | olly | and how have you tried to contact them? |
| 23:30.09 | valorie | Remote_: that's not good! |
| 23:30.19 | valorie | most have been in contact for weeks already |
| 23:32.35 | Remote_ | I sent an email letter |
| 23:33.03 | olly | Remote_: to which org? |
| 23:33.28 | Remote_ | I contacted Mozilla |
| 23:33.30 | olly | if you speak entirely in generalities, you'll only get very general answers |
| 23:34.37 | Remote_ | I see there are two ways - via IRC and email. As I can see, email seems quite unsound) |
| 23:34.59 | olly | you emailed the mhoye@ address on the org page? |
| 23:35.31 | olly | that sounds like an individual's email address, though it's unhelpful if they don't respond |
| 23:35.38 | Remote_ | yes! |
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| 23:36.16 | olly | i'd suggest trying the chat option, or contacting the mentor for the project idea you're interested in if that doesn't get a response |
| 23:36.28 | olly | or if you really can't get a useful response, try a different org |
| 23:37.01 | olly | you want to apply to an org who you're confident will give you appropriate mentoring support |
| 23:38.49 | Remote_ | I use the Mibbit client to do this, but how to address exactly to mentor, not the whole group? |
| 23:39.11 | olly | it's best to talk to the group |
| 23:39.22 | olly | you can mention a nickname to highlight the message for someone |
| 23:39.26 | olly | Remote_: like this |
| 23:39.28 | Remote_ | aah |
| 23:40.15 | olly | for email it's usually better to email a list rather than an individual, but mozilla seem to be steering students to emailing individuals for some reason |
| 23:40.58 | Remote_ | thank you! I am just a newcomer, I understand that mentors don't have enough time to look through individual requests |
| 23:41.32 | olly | they really ought to, though this is probably the busiest week of gsoc and it can be hard to keep up |
| 23:43.45 | olly | but when they signed up mentors have agreed to "use best efforts to respond to Student requests within thirty-six (36) hours" |
| 23:44.41 | Remote_ | hm, it' strange, I've sent a message in #gsoc channel, trying to stay patient |
| 23:49.38 | mandeep | Remote_: is this on irc.mozilla.org? |