| 00:01.36 | Hymie | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGchg4mbLs |
| 00:02.30 | mzb | joshua_: founder status for the handhelds* channels might be an idea ... I've got op, but can't control it all without founder |
| 00:02.40 | mzb | well ... somebody needs it, anyway ;) |
| 00:15.01 | Hymie | frankly, with android devices and their open sourced kernels, it should be much easier to create a debian based phone, or some such |
| 00:15.20 | Hymie | 99% of the problem before was the device and drivers, heh |
| 00:21.41 | mzb | in theory that's fine, but in practice very few of the (Chinese) manufacturers actually publish the source |
| 00:21.55 | mzb | ~google witstech a81e |
| 00:21.55 | mzb | 9[5Google9] http://www.merimobiles.com/Witstech_A81E_Android_2_2_800MHz_CPU_Market_Free_p/meri0306.htm 9[5Witstech A81E Android 2.2,800MHz CPU Market+Free - Merimobiles9] |
| 00:22.26 | mzb | ^ nice little tablet for $200 (newer models are better) |
| 00:23.50 | mzb | eg: this hasn't got far: http://code.google.com/p/a81linux/ |
| 00:36.04 | joshua_ | mzb, that's like priority #78 :P |
| 00:37.02 | mzb | hehe |
| 00:37.32 | mzb | yeah ... I just mean "while you're there ... get founder status for the channels so that we can manage them properly" |
| 00:37.40 | joshua_ | yeah |
| 00:37.53 | joshua_ | holy shit man, I'm looking at this bug, and it is just littered with corpses |
| 00:38.42 | mzb | dead developers? |
| 00:38.56 | joshua_ | yeah |
| 00:39.21 | joshua_ | many have tried, and all of their heads just spontaneously combusted |
| 00:39.31 | mzb | heheh |
| 00:39.42 | joshua_ | 120 kbytes of javascript doing direct register I/O, christ |
| 00:39.52 | mzb | ew |
| 00:46.24 | mzb | speaking of bugs, I guess I'd better finish off this job so I can get paid! |
| 00:47.09 | mzb | managed to convince the client to pay double for the last job, so I'd better make this one pretty good! ;) |
| 00:47.49 | mzb | took somebody else's work (PHP) that took 10hours to run! .... and did a complete rewrite in Python that takes THREE MINUTES! |
| 00:47.53 | mzb | woohoo! |
| 00:47.55 | mzb | *cackle* |
| 00:48.34 | mzb | (archival script for a call-centre) |
| 00:51.11 | Hymie | mzb: wtf are you talking about, HTC publishes full source + drivers for all android devices |
| 00:51.17 | Hymie | and, HTC has tons o'devices |
| 00:51.35 | Hymie | motorola does as well |
| 00:51.42 | Hymie | hell, everyone does that isn't black market |
| 00:52.33 | Hymie | mzb: it's quite an improvement in just 1 1/2 years |
| 00:53.19 | Hymie | mzb: example -- HTC Desire Z / G2.. full kernel sources, you could easily run just Debian on it if you wanted.... |
| 00:53.46 | Hymie | altohugh, no one bothers since Android isn't all that bad, but, in truth, I'd like something that isn't sucked down by the horrible suckiness of java |
| 00:53.51 | mzb | sure ... if I could afford anything better than the Chinese stuff :/ |
| 00:54.08 | Hymie | mzb: I'm not talking about mzb though, I'm talking about the state of things in general |
| 00:54.21 | Hymie | we can focus on mzb another day ;P |
| 00:54.48 | mzb | yeah ... I've had a bit of a play with Android on the A81E ... makes me feel stupid just looking at it ;) |
| 00:55.06 | Hymie | mzb: what didn't you like about it? |
| 00:55.29 | Hymie | mzb: it's at least more palitable once rooted... certainly not "fun", but... at least thre can be some freedom there |
| 00:55.31 | mzb | can't do things *my* way (easily) |
| 00:55.54 | mzb | yeah ... rooting was easy, but I'd *really* prefer Debian |
| 00:55.59 | Hymie | mzb: a lot of people feel as you do.. thge 'su' app for android is quite sophisticated now |
| 00:56.12 | Hymie | I still haven't tried chroot debian |
| 00:56.25 | Hymie | primarily since thge main way to use it as a GUI is to run a VNC server/client |
| 00:56.39 | Hymie | but, I was talking to someone the other day -- it's funny |
| 00:57.03 | Hymie | if you install all debian source archives + compiled archives in a chroot, and downloaded all technical android apps you could |
| 00:57.04 | mzb | another interesting one I've got here is the Parrot DF3120 |
| 00:57.07 | Hymie | and travelled to 1950 |
| 00:57.10 | Hymie | you'd be a god :D |
| 00:57.27 | mzb | :) |
| 00:57.46 | mzb | (speaking of VNC) |
| 00:57.55 | Hymie | mzb: if you had 100 g2 phones, for example, I mean -- that's be more power than the entire world had in 1970s |
| 00:58.00 | mzb | the DF3120 has bluetooth, and a few interesting sensors |
| 00:58.08 | Hymie | ah, photo frame |
| 00:58.31 | mzb | yep ... I've got it booting a custom build off card ... it's pretty neat |
| 00:58.36 | Hymie | cool ;) |
| 00:59.01 | Hymie | my experience with parrot support hgas not been good, so I'm glad to see any parrot device with alternative boot options |
| 00:59.02 | mzb | *BUT* almost nothing other than the VNC client works ... and it sucks up all my bluetooth bandwidth :/ |
| 00:59.15 | Hymie | hmm |
| 00:59.43 | mzb | that being said, it's pretty special for it's ability + price |
| 00:59.54 | Hymie | mzb: you know, with the dual core phones coming down the pipe, you should look for a lightly used G2 cheap |
| 00:59.54 | mzb | iirc I paid about $30 delivered for it |
| 01:00.18 | mzb | could be interested in that idea |
| 01:00.19 | Hymie | mzb: it hgas a keyboard, near to end CPU power and ram currently |
| 01:00.35 | Hymie | mzb: lots of community support to help root it, and, play with it once rooted |
| 01:01.02 | mzb | I've got a new *comms* solution ($10/month) that allows me to talk for free between my mobile and a datacard connected to my pbx at home |
| 01:01.02 | Hymie | mzb: there are tons of custom roms for it, and all roms hae full kernel sources + binary drivers where necessary |
| 01:01.20 | mzb | could be tempted to get one with a broken screen, I guess;) |
| 01:01.22 | Hymie | so, it should be relatively easy to take a G2 custom rom, and work from that and build something you'd prefer on that |
| 01:01.57 | Hymie | hmm |
| 01:02.21 | Hymie | and the custom bootloader, 'clockworkmod' has sources available too, and allows tons of manipluation before loaded |
| 01:02.47 | Hymie | once you have CWM and s-off on there, it's impossible to brick it from flashing a rom |
| 01:03.33 | joshua_ | [20:51:11] <Hymie^ wtf are you talking about, HTC publishes full source + drivers for all android devices |
| 01:03.34 | joshua_ | sometimes |
| 01:03.42 | joshua_ | occasionally they remember to comply with the GPL |
| 01:03.49 | Hymie | joshua_: no, it's much better now |
| 01:03.54 | joshua_ | when called on it, they claim that they only need to offer source |
| 01:03.58 | joshua_ | Hymie, no, it's not much better now |
| 01:04.04 | mzb | hrmm ... au$204 |
| 01:04.08 | Hymie | joshua_: they were all bitchy, but they really realise now they need to tow the line |
| 01:04.12 | joshua_ | there was just a month and a half wait for them to publish source for the recent line of devices |
| 01:04.14 | joshua_ | no, they don't |
| 01:04.22 | joshua_ | they wait six weeks before shipping source, sometimes eight |
| 01:04.24 | Hymie | joshua_: 6 months ago there were issues they were called on that and so far, from what I've seen, they've been quite responsive |
| 01:04.25 | joshua_ | that is totally unacceptible |
| 01:04.28 | joshua_ | no, they haven't been |
| 01:05.03 | Hymie | joshua_: I have absolutely no issue with it taking them a few weeks to pump out sources for roms the provide on their website |
| 01:05.16 | Hymie | I know, others do, but I don't view that as the same as 'no, I won't give this to you" |
| 01:05.19 | Hymie | they used to have that stance |
| 01:05.27 | Hymie | or only provide partial sources |
| 01:05.33 | joshua_ | http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html |
| 01:05.37 | Hymie | now they do provide 100% |
| 01:05.40 | joshua_ | no, taking a few weeks is absolutely not OK |
| 01:05.49 | Hymie | I won't tell you to stop fighting for that |
| 01:05.51 | mzb | errmm .... au$164 ... now it's getting interesting |
| 01:05.52 | Hymie | but for me, I'm happy |
| 01:06.05 | joshua_ | that is taking work from the community and withholding their contributions so that they can gain competitive advantage |
| 01:06.11 | joshua_ | and, as it turns out, that is what the GPL is designed to avoid |
| 01:06.35 | Hymie | well, from where I sit, I have no issues with it taking a bit for a different team to release sources as a package |
| 01:06.37 | Hymie | but, again |
| 01:06.50 | Hymie | that doesn't mean I'd be upset by a more timely response, I'm just not stressed by it |
| 01:06.54 | Hymie | to be honest |
| 01:06.57 | joshua_ | the free software foundation has issues with it |
| 01:07.05 | Hymie | I've noticed the occasional case where the sources do not match what's on my device |
| 01:07.07 | joshua_ | and the rest of the modification community does |
| 01:07.10 | Hymie | but, I can tell those ar eminor fuckups |
| 01:07.14 | Hymie | they worry me more though |
| 01:07.27 | Hymie | I check my bluetooth code with strace, and noticed it wasn't the same as the source |
| 01:07.28 | joshua_ | I mean, also bad (but not illegal) is that you cannot run your own code on the devices |
| 01:07.42 | Hymie | joshua_: what are you talking about? |
| 01:07.53 | Hymie | joshua_: HTC has announced that all future devices will not be locked |
| 01:08.05 | joshua_ | except that the ones that they keep shipping that are locked |
| 01:08.06 | Hymie | joshua_: you will be able to install any custom rom you want |
| 01:08.09 | mzb | or even au$129 for a used one |
| 01:08.22 | Hymie | joshua_: they only announced that 2 month ago, they hgave contracts with carriers to honour |
| 01:08.34 | mzb | (HTC Magic) |
| 01:08.42 | joshua_ | in any event, this is why http://revolutionary.io/ |
| 01:08.42 | Hymie | joshua_: don't take a BIG win, and complain that it isn't here yet... |
| 01:08.59 | Hymie | heh |
| 01:09.02 | Hymie | these hosers |
| 01:09.10 | Hymie | maybe you should tell them to release their sources |
| 01:09.10 | joshua_ | that's the way it should have been from day 1, Hymie, and that Google is letting carriers and device manufacturers get away with this is beyond ridiculous |
| 01:09.15 | joshua_ | I am them :P |
| 01:09.31 | Hymie | joshua_: well, you need to work with people like guhl more freely |
| 01:09.32 | mzb | oh, I guess you're talking about the HTC Vision, Hymie ? |
| 01:09.37 | joshua_ | we do not use any GPL tools for a reason -- so that we don't have to release our exploits |
| 01:09.38 | joshua_ | ȌȌȌȌȌ |
| 01:09.40 | joshua_ | argh |
| 01:10.10 | Hymie | mzb: g2 is the vision, yes |
| 01:10.28 | mzb | http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=2476&c=t-mobile_g2_htc_vision |
| 01:10.42 | Hymie | joshua_: didn't you include wp_this in this tool/ |
| 01:10.45 | joshua_ | (anyway, that is my vision for handhelds.org this time around: running truly free software on handhelds) |
| 01:11.02 | joshua_ | wp_this was included at one point, but by scotty2's explicit permission |
| 01:12.02 | mzb | meh ... that's a $400 phone |
| 01:12.08 | Hymie | joshua_: never mind, I'm thinking of those dongle guys |
| 01:12.17 | joshua_ | the xtc clip guys? |
| 01:12.33 | Hymie | mzb: very soon it will drop in price on ebay when dual cores (thgere is a nice keyboarded dual core phone coming out) come out |
| 01:12.44 | mzb | hmm |
| 01:12.55 | joshua_ | my recommendation for a new phone right now is GSII |
| 01:13.14 | Hymie | samsung? |
| 01:13.15 | mzb | not sure I like the slide ... have had to repair too many of them |
| 01:13.17 | joshua_ | yup |
| 01:13.22 | Hymie | does it have a keyboard? |
| 01:13.25 | joshua_ | nope |
| 01:13.34 | Hymie | then useless for me :/ |
| 01:13.37 | Hymie | must |
| 01:13.38 | Hymie | have |
| 01:13.38 | joshua_ | oh? |
| 01:13.39 | Hymie | keyboard |
| 01:13.48 | joshua_ | the soft keyboard that comes with it is apparently pretty damn solid |
| 01:13.55 | Hymie | joshua_: you should watch 'colossus -- the forbin project' |
| 01:13.58 | mzb | yeah, $SHE got a Samsung ... looks quite nice |
| 01:13.59 | joshua_ | in part because the digitizer is apparently very solid |
| 01:14.02 | Hymie | everyone says that to me |
| 01:14.11 | Hymie | ad then laughs at me when I use it |
| 01:14.18 | Hymie | I think soft keyboards were written by the french |
| 01:14.18 | joshua_ | I have owned two HTC phones and both digitizers have sucked rocks |
| 01:14.26 | Hymie | (as, they like tl laugh as you try to speak their language ;) |
| 01:14.45 | joshua_ | (for all my bitching and moaning about Android and openness, I'm pretty sure my next device will be an LTE iPhone whenever it ships) |
| 01:14.51 | Hymie | well, nothing beats the old tactile feeling of the hardware keyboard |
| 01:14.59 | mzb | swype(?) is pretty cool, and there's an open source (or is it just *free*?) equivalent that's not bad |
| 01:15.06 | Hymie | it doesn't work for me |
| 01:15.14 | joshua_ | (android is a closed platform that sucks; iPhone is a closed platform that doesn't suck) |
| 01:15.15 | Hymie | I think it's because I have big fingers |
| 01:15.16 | joshua_ | swype is pretty ok |
| 01:15.25 | joshua_ | the more it learns, the less it knows though |
| 01:15.50 | Hymie | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DtbPOXFk00 |
| 01:16.01 | Hymie | that's me and soft keyboards ;) |
| 01:17.00 | Hymie | joshua_: anyhow, regardless of all the statements above, today is much better than yesterday, in terms of getting a kernel + drivers to run on your device |
| 01:17.05 | joshua_ | yes |
| 01:17.06 | Hymie | there was a time whne it simply would never, ever happen |
| 01:17.15 | joshua_ | oh, that's vastly false |
| 01:17.18 | Hymie | I think handhelds.org could be the nexdt step |
| 01:17.20 | joshua_ | speaking as someone on the team that made it happen ;) |
| 01:17.34 | Hymie | my statement rings true for some devices |
| 01:17.39 | joshua_ | yeah |
| 01:17.57 | Hymie | look, the reason HTC is embracing the whole 'ok, you can run your own rom' stance |
| 01:18.01 | Hymie | is because they see the numbers |
| 01:18.01 | Hymie | and |
| 01:18.08 | Hymie | they see how the roms aren't bad quality |
| 01:18.12 | Hymie | and some are awesome quality |
| 01:18.16 | Hymie | they see, that one day |
| 01:18.23 | Hymie | they will just install cyanogen on the phone |
| 01:18.25 | Hymie | and sell it |
| 01:18.27 | Hymie | and that's it |
| 01:18.36 | Hymie | or even sell un-installed phones |
| 01:18.37 | Hymie | with no rom |
| 01:18.42 | Hymie | they'll love that bottom line |
| 01:18.51 | Hymie | or sell phones to carriers |
| 01:18.56 | Hymie | tha tjust slap cyanogenmod on it |
| 01:19.01 | Hymie | it will be like the PC market |
| 01:19.03 | mzb | I wouldn't mind having a look at a Nokia N9 |
| 01:19.13 | Hymie | point is, handhelds.org can play a real part in that |
| 01:19.15 | Hymie | in that |
| 01:19.20 | Hymie | there will be different distros |
| 01:19.25 | Hymie | and a distro, something like debian |
| 01:19.26 | joshua_ | yes |
| 01:19.30 | joshua_ | I'd like to do that, yes |
| 01:19.33 | Hymie | with a slower moving, and real quality control process |
| 01:19.37 | Hymie | could become a powerful player |
| 01:19.38 | joshua_ | I think this is probably a clear direction for handhelds.org to go in :P |
| 01:19.52 | Hymie | cyanogenmod is great, but it ishn't the best for getting all the bugs out |
| 01:20.07 | Hymie | I always have to switch |
| 01:20.09 | joshua_ | anyway back to dealing with javascript psyops |
| 01:20.12 | Hymie | I'm running nightlies |
| 01:20.20 | Hymie | because of the PITA with the latest release, and a few bugs |
| 01:20.41 | Hymie | joshua_: at some time, I'd like to talk to you about a distro that is essentially a debian fork |
| 01:20.45 | Hymie | with fluff mods |
| 01:21.04 | joshua_ | so I have approximately no cycles for active development on that sort of thing |
| 01:21.10 | Hymie | right now |
| 01:21.16 | Hymie | but the universe will make all things possible |
| 01:21.21 | joshua_ | all my dev cycles go towards work and things like unrevoked/revolutionary/naim/... |
| 01:21.22 | Hymie | perhaps a grand from the rand corporation |
| 01:21.29 | Hymie | grant too |
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| 01:21.51 | Hymie | joshua_: ok |
| 01:21.56 | Hymie | l8r for now |
| 01:22.07 | joshua_ | I have basically project management and webdev cycles for those sorts of things |
| 01:22.09 | joshua_ | but not much beyond that |
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