| 00:00.00 | DocScrutinizer | hah |
| 00:01.19 | javispedro | ooooooh |
| 00:01.22 | javispedro | I just had that idea today. |
| 00:01.34 | javispedro | ieatlint: where? |
| 00:01.51 | ieatlint | https://projects.developer.nokia.com/battleships |
| 00:02.59 | javispedro | only harmattan though? |
| 00:03.02 | javispedro | baad. |
| 00:03.05 | ieatlint | apparently |
| 00:03.13 | javispedro | UNLESS there's another meegoconf soon. |
| 00:03.20 | ieatlint | yeah, i wonder why... if it uses qt, it should work fine anywhere |
| 00:08.17 | DocScrutinizer | ok, my magnetometer is definitely broken at best |
| 00:10.04 | DocScrutinizer | could it be? Nokia forgot to use a magnetically neutered speaker component - and vib motor as well? |
| 00:10.45 | SpeedEvil | have you found the raw x/y/z outputts? |
| 00:11.37 | DocScrutinizer | sure, javispedro provided a minimalistic python script some days ago, and sensorgallery has QMagnetometer |
| 00:12.53 | DocScrutinizer | both showing same results basically: a gigantic offset, and really shaky values that don't strictly correlate with orientation of device wrt to earth |
| 00:13.20 | SpeedEvil | Several things occur. |
| 00:13.55 | SpeedEvil | You're not ear any large metal objects - or is the building you're in made from concrete? |
| 00:13.57 | DocScrutinizer | I guess with massive integration over time, and offset calibration, you might get some meaningful result |
| 00:13.57 | SpeedEvil | ear |
| 00:13.58 | SpeedEvil | near |
| 00:14.14 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: QCompass seemingly tries to provide something useful |
| 00:14.16 | SpeedEvil | I'd try it in the garden, or somewhere outside |
| 00:14.31 | javispedro | here it has around ~10º offset, but is consistent within itself |
| 00:14.32 | DocScrutinizer | the building has rather few metal in it - it's 150 years old |
| 00:14.59 | DocScrutinizer | I'm talking about offset in the 3 axis raw values |
| 00:15.13 | DocScrutinizer | the one does never go negative, for example |
| 00:15.43 | javispedro | but that's how it should be aiui |
| 00:16.06 | DocScrutinizer | how would one axis never go negative? |
| 00:16.35 | javispedro | ah yes, you always do all orientations =) |
| 00:16.41 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 00:17.44 | javispedro | depending on portrait/landscape qcompass has a different offset |
| 00:17.44 | DocScrutinizer | means there's a bias on the field that's fixed to the device and way huger than earth magnetic field |
| 00:17.58 | javispedro | so it's useless as an absolute value but works well enough as a relative |
| 00:19.20 | DocScrutinizer | I nevertheless wonder if the shaky part in the values maybe already is the effect I'm looking for to base my cablefinder on it, and it was way stronger than I might have thought |
| 00:21.29 | DocScrutinizer | I might want to dump the data to a file and run some statistics over it |
| 00:21.37 | DocScrutinizer | esp filters |
| 00:21.54 | DocScrutinizer | or better even FFT |
| 00:22.17 | DocScrutinizer | HAH |
| 00:22.26 | DocScrutinizer | or simply feed it to PA ;-P |
| 00:24.16 | SpeedEvil | I would try degaussing your device |
| 00:24.32 | SpeedEvil | After turning off ad removig the battery |
| 00:24.33 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 00:24.44 | SpeedEvil | Do not degauss the device when it's on |
| 00:24.53 | DocScrutinizer | anyway if vib motor has a moving permanent magnet inside, the whole compass thing is fsckd |
| 00:26.26 | DocScrutinizer | and vib motor has an extremely strong magnet |
| 00:26.34 | DocScrutinizer | at least in FreeRunner |
| 00:26.36 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 00:27.17 | DocScrutinizer | you can *almost* pin the whole phone to a steel board at the wall |
| 00:28.37 | javispedro | I love how you need to frigging _pin_ the data rate slider to the _EXACT_ rate otherwise it goes back to 0Hz |
| 00:28.56 | DocScrutinizer | OK - speaker is it here |
| 00:29.09 | javispedro | in an animation that firstly looks cool but after the 37th makes you want threw phone. |
| 00:29.36 | javispedro | also: set slider to 40Hz in landscape, switch to portrait: slider disappears. |
| 00:29.40 | DocScrutinizer | duh, I thought you simply can not set datarate |
| 00:30.07 | DocScrutinizer | which sensor? |
| 00:30.17 | javispedro | magnetometer |
| 00:30.28 | javispedro | only 40Hz works. |
| 00:30.38 | javispedro | (and 0Hz... which is not really 0...) |
| 00:30.51 | DocScrutinizer | you can store steel nails at device backside where speaker sits |
| 00:30.52 | javispedro | ah, and 2Hz. |
| 00:31.21 | DocScrutinizer | friggin magnetometer chip has NO datarate at all |
| 00:32.15 | DocScrutinizer | also I just pushed the slider to a random position and it worked, unlike all other sensors I tested |
| 00:32.47 | javispedro | and the random position was 40? =) |
| 00:33.00 | DocScrutinizer | nope, more like 17 |
| 00:33.02 | DocScrutinizer | iirc |
| 00:33.24 | javispedro | bzzt! nope |
| 00:33.29 | javispedro | (goes back to 0) |
| 00:33.39 | DocScrutinizer | incredible, it was 40 ;-P |
| 00:34.03 | javispedro | 0,1,2,10,20,40 |
| 00:34.05 | DocScrutinizer | first shot a hit |
| 00:34.26 | javispedro | worst slider widget ever. |
| 00:34.38 | javispedro | (but it's fun) |
| 00:34.40 | DocScrutinizer | oh, it slides back to 40 now when I set random 54 |
| 00:35.09 | javispedro | this sensorsgallery is the most fun app in the phone now. |
| 00:36.47 | javispedro | interestingly enough, swiping out the camera app reveals it is not using an overlay color key like videos app |
| 00:37.03 | javispedro | and yet from a performance PoV I would not have realized. |
| 00:40.26 | DocScrutinizer | you might have thought 4th parameter in magnetometer is bool valid, but no, it's always 1 and sensor overload results in readout stalling |
| 00:40.59 | DocScrutinizer | so I wonder hat that 4th parameer might be |
| 00:41.20 | javispedro | it is actually bool valid |
| 00:41.58 | javispedro | "MROI" |
| 00:43.17 | DocScrutinizer | just another bug. I wonder if there's *one* sensor in QtM that's not flawed or buggy |
| 00:43.35 | javispedro | don't blame QtM, at least for the ones that provide raw data |
| 00:45.25 | DocScrutinizer | btw if you wondered: the magnetometer seems to sit "upside left" - quite close to the earpiece transducer (unless kbd opened), and "other side" of main camera |
| 00:46.11 | javispedro | seems that this is the same magnetometer as used on the playstation move |
| 00:46.15 | javispedro | so there's some RE around. |
| 00:46.39 | DocScrutinizer | wonders if that's a bad sign when he starts to consider portrait the normal orientation of the device |
| 00:47.21 | DocScrutinizer | datasheet for magmeter is available. Its actually a funny chip design |
| 00:48.18 | DocScrutinizer | the chip needs power-on cmd, does one readout and auto-powerdowns. You nevertheless can readout registers when powered down |
| 00:48.39 | DocScrutinizer | that's why I said "there is no datarate of magmeter chip" |
| 00:49.01 | DocScrutinizer | the arbitrary restriction in QMagnetometer is random BS |
| 00:50.03 | DocScrutinizer | actually I guess sysfs node read() blocks until chip completed a probe cycle |
| 00:51.07 | DocScrutinizer | not as stupid as it sounds, as the chip is really fast |
| 00:51.21 | DocScrutinizer | some 7ms iirc |
| 00:51.37 | DocScrutinizer | or was it 0.7? |
| 00:54.28 | DocScrutinizer | time for measurement: 7.30ms |
| 01:52.41 | GAN900 | DocScrutinizer, hope we can fix that with some community-based improvements |
| 01:52.43 | GAN900 | Portrait-primary is sucky. |
| 01:53.47 | rm_you | GAN900: still in UK |
| 01:53.52 | rm_you | rofl |
| 01:53.56 | GAN900 | Yes |
| 01:54.07 | rm_you | how do they fail that hard |
| 01:54.13 | GAN900 | fiferboy's appears to have fallen into the ocean somewhere. |
| 01:54.16 | rm_you | rofl |
| 01:54.17 | GAN900 | I don't know. |
| 01:54.27 | rm_you | they MUST be either failing to scan things in right, or having system trouble |
| 01:55.06 | javispedro | GAN900: rm_you: it could be worse like that guy in f.m.c who says his order just dematerialized. |
| 01:55.29 | rm_you | T_T |
| 01:56.06 | javispedro | believe me when I say the device is not worth the wait! |
| 01:56.22 | javispedro | hides while laughing |
| 01:56.39 | rm_you | lol |
| 02:00.14 | javispedro | hits aegis again |
| 02:00.24 | javispedro | OH WHY I CANNOT INSTALL RPCBIND ON THIS THING |
| 02:00.44 | javispedro | SMASHES THING AGAINST THE WALL UNTIL ONLY AEGIS PURÃE REMAINS |
| 02:04.07 | javispedro | types "ME. WANTS. RPCBIND. !!!!" on terminal to see if omniscient aegis answers |
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| 02:19.57 | rm_you | i thought you could just turn off aegis on the dev machines |
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| 03:49.26 | *** topic/#harmattan is a cozy little place for pure harmattan device discussions | MeeGo N9(|50) CE on its way, MOSLO still missing discuss in #meego-arm please | chanlogs: see ~logs , http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Migrating_from_N900_to_N950 |
| 03:49.26 | *** mode/#harmattan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 03:55.15 | ieatlint | heh, "Failed to connect to remote themedaemon. Retrying in one second." and then repeating indefinitely every second when trying to launch my app |
| 03:55.52 | DocScrutinizer | remote themedaemon? WTF!? |
| 03:55.56 | ieatlint | the best part of working on new platforms is being one of the first people to get errors, so that google searches just give you the source repo as hits |
| 03:56.01 | ieatlint | yep. |
| 03:56.05 | ieatlint | no idea wtf that is |
| 03:56.25 | ieatlint | apparently part of libmeegotouch (this app is qml, qt and qt-mobility only) |
| 03:56.54 | ieatlint | i actually think it might be a permissions issue |
| 03:57.48 | DocScrutinizer | hey, never seen it this way - just the source repo, nice :-) |
| 03:58.52 | ieatlint | i ran into a qt-symbian error message one like that too |
| 03:59.00 | ieatlint | only had hits in gitorious |
| 03:59.33 | ieatlint | yep, was a permissions issue |
| 03:59.38 | ieatlint | i was being lazy and trying to run it as root |
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| 06:25.22 | dm8tbr | good moaning |
| 06:36.58 | dm8tbr | DocScrutinizer: btw: there is a lxr/mxr, http://mxr.meego.com/ it even features those beloved aegis things, but I think something is broken with the updating, so use with caution. |
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| 07:32.22 | Mece_ | o/ |
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| 08:16.33 | lcuk | dm8tbr, timeless was on meego a couple of days ago |
| 08:16.40 | lcuk | and him and lbt got it updating |
| 08:26.08 | *** join/#harmattan Venemo (~Timur@fedora/Venemo) |
| 08:28.47 | Venemo | morning harmattanites |
| 08:32.13 | *** join/#harmattan spenap (~spena@cs27063224.pp.htv.fi) |
| 08:37.47 | *** join/#harmattan gri (~gri@agsb-4d05558c.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 08:50.26 | Venemo | anyone wanna try my little app? |
| 08:58.24 | Venemo | http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=26266&postcount=11 -> says it all |
| 08:58.52 | Venemo | and here is how to keep aegis at bay: http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=25848&postcount=4 |
| 09:10.11 | macmaN | nice, got blueman connected to N950 BT DUN almost plugnplay |
| 09:10.16 | macmaN | (imagine airplug) |
| 09:10.31 | macmaN | linuxing teh internetz from teh car! |
| 09:13.16 | Venemo | macmaN :) |
| 09:14.22 | macmaN | blueman also worked doing PAN to n900 bnep0 so i gotta give thumbs up to the guy |
| 09:17.02 | mece | hey how do I autorotate stuff in Harmattan? |
| 09:18.11 | Venemo | mece, my app autorotates pretty automatically |
| 09:20.25 | Venemo | without me needing to do anything about it |
| 09:27.14 | dm8tbr | lcuk: I know, I started the conversation |
| 09:42.35 | mece | Venemo, what kind of app is it? |
| 09:45.58 | lcuk | dm8tbr, ++ |
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| 10:20.38 | macmaN | hmm strange thing is n950 doesnt show internet connection when youre connected through bt dun |
| 10:21.02 | macmaN | in the status panel |
| 10:23.37 | Venemo | mece, a memory game |
| 10:24.31 | Venemo | http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip |
| 10:46.14 | mzanetti | Venemo: nice game :) |
| 10:46.30 | mzanetti | Venemo: the toolbar seems to be quite redundant... |
| 10:46.46 | mzanetti | Venemo: there are about 3 different actions but like 10 ways to access them |
| 10:47.55 | mzanetti | Venemo: and IMO the animation when you score should be tuned down a bit. It seems like flickering |
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| 11:13.16 | rZr | Venemo: European Union Public Licence, is this floss ? |
| 11:13.59 | rZr | Venemo: can i distribuate it in compiled form on my h rep ? |
| 11:21.59 | mzanetti | rZr: see LICENCE file section 2.4 |
| 11:22.35 | rZr | looks good |
| 11:25.59 | mzanetti | rZr: you also need to provide "a machine-readable copy of the Souce Code [...] easily and freely accessible [...]" |
| 11:29.23 | mzanetti | rZr: where can I find the repo to see what else you a re hosting? |
| 11:32.15 | Venemo | mzanetti, thank you |
| 11:32.37 | Venemo | rZr, yes, you can. |
| 11:32.48 | Venemo | rZr, yes it is OSI approved |
| 11:35.26 | rZr | what about fsf ? :) |
| 11:35.49 | rZr | i am trying to rebuild it |
| 11:45.06 | gri | Venemo: What app do you have to test? |
| 11:45.51 | Venemo | gri, [12:24] <Venemo> http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip |
| 11:46.14 | Venemo | rZr, read the license, it's very short, and it's FOSS, yes |
| 11:50.17 | Venemo | mzanetti, the only redundant things are what're in the menu... I'll change that :) |
| 11:50.59 | mzanetti | Venemo: it also feels strange to have close button in a harmattan app |
| 11:51.19 | mzanetti | Venemo: and I think other platforms add a close button to each app themselves |
| 11:51.31 | Venemo | mzanetti, lol. I'm annoyed by the fact that there is no close button in apps |
| 11:51.53 | Venemo | mzanetti, so I did the css hack trick and I have close buttons now in some MTF apps |
| 11:52.34 | mzanetti | Venemo: sure, its just my opinion. I for one like the swipe thing |
| 11:52.58 | Venemo | mzanetti, me too, but I hate to be unable to close apps |
| 11:54.23 | mzanetti | Venemo: as far as I heard you should be able to close them by swiping from top to bottom soon |
| 11:55.35 | gri | Venemo: My girlfriend loves memory games, I'll have to delete it before she notices it :P |
| 11:56.43 | mzanetti | Venemo: the row and column settings don't work here but I guess that is work in progress. |
| 11:58.41 | gri | Also in other applications the "more" button shows the menu and hides the toolbar, here the toolbar stays on bottom |
| 12:03.13 | *** part/#harmattan mece (~mece@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe3fdc00-44.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 12:14.18 | Venemo | gri, hehehe |
| 12:14.27 | Venemo | mzanetti, I heard, but currently I can't |
| 12:14.42 | Venemo | mzanetti, they don't work if you are already in game, that is correct |
| 12:14.54 | Venemo | mzanetti, stop the game, then set them |
| 12:15.47 | Venemo | I nead to tweak that in my QML |
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| 13:10.19 | Venemo | mgedmin, ping |
| 13:14.35 | dm8tbr | https://projects.developer.nokia.com/home/project/explore#tab=recent - would be kind of interesting if there would be a harmattan category or is that what they mean by "MeeGo" |
| 13:15.12 | dm8tbr | WTH, 2 bible readers on the first page of the MeeGo listing... |
| 13:16.51 | Stskeeps | you'd be surprised at how big that market is |
| 13:17.05 | Stskeeps | people generally don't want to drag around bibles, easier on the mobile |
| 13:17.05 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 13:19.13 | Venemo | isn't the bible obsolete yet? |
| 13:19.33 | DocScrutinizer | Q-ran readers also very popular |
| 13:20.05 | Termana | Venemo, ha ha, going in for the kill there aren't you tiger? :p |
| 13:20.15 | Venemo | Termana :P |
| 13:20.22 | Venemo | I would have thought that after a few hundred years of doing that, people would be smarter than killing each other for some stuff in a book... but let's not go OT :P |
| 13:20.25 | DocScrutinizer | is slightly puzzled on that common habit |
| 13:21.35 | Venemo | soo... how do I remap the hw keyboard |
| 13:21.58 | Venemo | I wanna reassing some keys that currently don't do anything when pressed with Fn |
| 13:22.06 | DocScrutinizer | esp denying the fact that books are *always* written by humans is something that bewilders me |
| 13:24.14 | DocScrutinizer | and some of the oldest books have undergone several severe edits and censoring, also by humans with not always honest intentions. This is a provable fact |
| 13:24.28 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, yeah |
| 13:24.42 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, so, do you happen to know how to remap N950's hw kbd? |
| 13:25.13 | DocScrutinizer | same way you do that for N900? wild guess |
| 13:26.37 | Venemo | nope |
| 13:27.02 | DocScrutinizer | why? aegis? |
| 13:27.12 | Venemo | mgedmin told me something about it at a tile when I wasn't able to fully focus on IRC... the thing that I remember is one needs to tweak some XML file |
| 13:27.22 | DocScrutinizer | or have they massively changed the underlying gear |
| 13:27.38 | Venemo | dunno about the details |
| 13:27.53 | Venemo | I tried the same stuff that worked on N900, that did not work definitely |
| 13:28.06 | DocScrutinizer | well there are IRC logs all over the place |
| 13:28.36 | Venemo | he didn't tell me the details |
| 13:29.51 | DocScrutinizer | linux and keyboard - a long confusing and annoying story basically. Each time I'm finished with reading the last manpage/source to find out about some deatils, I already lost the complete picture and have to start all over |
| 13:30.33 | Venemo | this is true for almost every aspect of Linux |
| 13:30.34 | DocScrutinizer | I guess input methods have more layers than OSI |
| 13:32.34 | DocScrutinizer | see [2011-07-16 14:32:05] <DocScrutinizer> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/escapingsection.html 5.3 is epic |
| 13:32.59 | Venemo | hmm |
| 13:33.56 | DocScrutinizer | read -s -N2 -t 0.001; read -s -N1 -t 0.001 WOWHAA*cough*HA |
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| 13:35.41 | Venemo | lcuk, have you tried my humble little app yet? |
| 13:35.52 | *** join/#harmattan javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro) |
| 13:36.56 | lcuk | Venemo, i have not. when i next ssh into n9 i will do |
| 13:37.08 | Venemo | okay, no need to hurry |
| 13:37.09 | javispedro | voice navigation in drive! |
| 13:37.11 | javispedro | is happy |
| 13:37.15 | Venemo | javispedro, srsly? |
| 13:37.15 | lcuk | is pondering a complex thingamibob on other machine |
| 13:37.27 | javispedro | yarlly! |
| 13:37.32 | Venemo | that sounds good :) |
| 13:37.45 | Venemo | If only we'd have landscape support |
| 13:38.00 | javispedro | we have landscape support -- in drive |
| 13:38.19 | javispedro | and ovimaps fwiw |
| 13:38.29 | Venemo | I'm talking about homescreens and contacts, music, settings, etc. apps |
| 13:38.45 | DocScrutinizer | meh, my bash doesn't know read -N1 |
| 13:38.49 | Venemo | maps, messages, mail, etc. do support landscape |
| 13:39.14 | javispedro | is already totally disregarding the hwkb, too cumbersome.. |
| 13:39.25 | lcuk | i think xv windows are being sent through compositor and using yuv->rgb on the powervr |
| 13:39.33 | Venemo | javispedro, srsly? |
| 13:39.34 | dm8tbr | contacts has fun problems if you edit a contact and then edit an entry with the kbd slid out |
| 13:39.45 | lcuk | sad panda because it means liqbase runs only as fast as on the n810! |
| 13:39.53 | Venemo | javispedro, it is a very nice keyboard... typing with vkb is a lot slower for me |
| 13:39.58 | javispedro | lcuk: there might be something about this, because videos are slower than on n900 |
| 13:40.27 | javispedro | Venemo: not saying vkb is faster. it's just that hwkb requires two hands to slide |
| 13:40.31 | lcuk | javispedro, it also encounters bug 13084 when I use 854*480 video mode |
| 13:40.34 | MeeGoBot | Bug https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13084 maj, Medium, ---, carsten, ASSI, [n900] Horizontal tearing with xvimagesink |
| 13:40.37 | Venemo | javispedro, indeed. |
| 13:40.47 | Venemo | javispedro, maybe I used my N900 too much? :P |
| 13:41.50 | javispedro | hum, tearing. |
| 13:42.07 | lcuk | javispedro, gatepost alignment error |
| 13:42.09 | javispedro | lcuk: do you have a liqbase build for harmattan around? |
| 13:42.34 | lcuk | on the n900-ce, it reads 801 pixels per row |
| 13:42.40 | javispedro | haha |
| 13:42.49 | lcuk | javispedro, only thusfar used the n900 builds |
| 13:42.51 | javispedro | then that's quite worse than tearing |
| 13:42.54 | lcuk | happily they work |
| 13:43.04 | javispedro | n900ce builds? |
| 13:43.08 | lcuk | but encounter problems |
| 13:43.10 | lcuk | maemo |
| 13:43.11 | javispedro | oh. |
| 13:43.14 | lcuk | ie this tearing |
| 13:43.23 | javispedro | so you do not have hardfp vs softfp problems? |
| 13:43.42 | Venemo | javispedro, if he doesn't use floats, why would he? |
| 13:43.45 | lcuk | i did not try to use deb package on my n900-ce |
| 13:43.51 | lcuk | i built ondevice directly |
| 13:43.57 | javispedro | ah, ok :) |
| 13:44.04 | lcuk | so would not know about hard/soft fp |
| 13:44.17 | javispedro | Venemo: dynamic loader is too stupid to know about whether a function has fp calls |
| 13:44.23 | javispedro | s/function/symbol |
| 13:44.30 | Venemo | mhm |
| 13:44.32 | javispedro | that's all it sees, symbol and symbol names. |
| 13:46.07 | javispedro | so it can either refuse to bind ALL symbols from different FP ABI files, or it can just blindly accept them all |
| 13:46.15 | javispedro | my guess is that it will do the former :) |
| 13:46.31 | Venemo | I have no idea |
| 13:46.46 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, puzzling issue |
| 13:46.52 | Venemo | however, I managed to get my game into a bugged state... |
| 13:46.56 | DocScrutinizer | windowesque |
| 13:48.32 | DocScrutinizer | so, FWIW - N950 charges reasonably "OKish" from non-D+-_short USB wallwarts |
| 13:49.12 | javispedro | WHAT THE HEL |
| 13:49.20 | DocScrutinizer | charging battery with 80some mA (when idle and screen blanked), to keep it at ~90% |
| 13:49.39 | javispedro | # portmap -h |
| 13:49.39 | javispedro | usage: portmap [-dfv] [-t dir] [-i address] |
| 13:49.54 | javispedro | rpcbind _works_ today, FOR NO REASON AT ALL! |
| 13:49.55 | DocScrutinizer | ~messybox |
| 13:49.55 | infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils |
| 13:50.01 | javispedro | I DID NOTHING! |
| 13:50.07 | DocScrutinizer | HAHA |
| 13:50.18 | javispedro | so it is true there's an omniscient Aegis god. |
| 13:50.51 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: today the day-of-month is a 2^x |
| 13:51.02 | javispedro | makes a note to sacrificate some lambs so that God allows me to run more programs. |
| 13:51.26 | GAN900 | Still stuck in the UK |
| 13:51.35 | DocScrutinizer | WTF GAN900 |
| 13:51.46 | javispedro | GAN900: probably will miss Monday then :( |
| 13:52.25 | DocScrutinizer | there are no volcanoes hindering airplane starts in EU right ATM |
| 13:53.45 | DocScrutinizer | GAN900: curse homeland security - I bet the device has to undergo in-depth inspection for potentially hazardous physical and logical content |
| 13:54.08 | GAN900 | Doubt it. |
| 13:54.14 | DocScrutinizer | after all it's addressed at *you* ;-P |
| 13:54.37 | GAN900 | DHL incompetence seems the likelier. |
| 13:55.11 | DocScrutinizer | DHL incompetence is notorious too, yes |
| 13:55.29 | javispedro | removes man of faith hat, puts on his researcher hat and tries to understand what the *** happened with aegis. |
| 13:55.30 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, doesn't Aegis count as hazardous logical content? |
| 13:55.58 | Venemo | javispedro, didn't you set your Aegis to relaxed mode or whatever? |
| 13:56.11 | javispedro | I was trying to install rpcbind |
| 13:56.14 | javispedro | the NFS portmapper |
| 13:56.17 | javispedro | s/NFS/RPC |
| 13:56.27 | javispedro | this must run as root because it opens ports < 1000 |
| 13:57.29 | javispedro | so of course aegis refuses it like there's no tomorrow. |
| 13:57.34 | javispedro | well, yesterday. today it ran it. |
| 13:57.44 | javispedro | albeit I'm noticing it still does not allow it to open listen sockets. |
| 13:58.23 | Mek | hmm, I managed to get my n950 in a reboot-loop... |
| 13:58.29 | javispedro | not hard. |
| 13:58.58 | *** join/#harmattan aapo (~quassel@cs27097135.pp.htv.fi) |
| 13:59.00 | Venemo | xD |
| 13:59.40 | javispedro | oh, interesting. |
| 13:59.50 | javispedro | aegis removed portmap user and group from /etc/passwd |
| 14:00.23 | Venemo | aegis is pure evil |
| 14:00.28 | Venemo | what's the whole point of it? |
| 14:00.35 | javispedro | but this might be the reason it works |
| 14:02.29 | aapo | Hello, I have N950, but I really do not know what I have signed about NDA. I saw one speculation thread on TMO, but is there any 'official' simple English (or even simple Finnish) list what I can publicly say about it? |
| 14:03.00 | lcuk | ++ Nokia Design, N950 can stand up in portrait mode with the keyboard open |
| 14:03.13 | Venemo | lcuk, lol. |
| 14:03.17 | SpeedEvil | aapo: you have the NDA - you just don't understand it, or you don't have the NDA. |
| 14:03.23 | javispedro | lcuk: :D |
| 14:03.27 | lcuk | -- for location of the USB port to allow making a proper charging dock |
| 14:03.30 | Venemo | aapo, you can retrieve it from Nokia site |
| 14:03.47 | Venemo | lcuk, doesn't it annoy you to great length when a portrait-only app opens while the keyboard is slid out? |
| 14:03.57 | lcuk | no |
| 14:04.31 | Venemo | it disturbs the flow of my work when it does that |
| 14:04.33 | aapo | SpeedEvil: I clicked same default long text than any others too, but I do not understand it enough to feel comfortable |
| 14:04.40 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 14:05.00 | Venemo | aapo, go to the site where you ordered the N950 and you will find it there |
| 14:05.26 | aapo | Venemo: yes, but I think I do not understand it |
| 14:06.06 | DocScrutinizer | aapo: not even Nokia understands it, evidently |
| 14:06.33 | Venemo | aapo, which part? |
| 14:06.47 | Venemo | aapo, there are two important points in it. |
| 14:07.05 | Venemo | aapo, -> you play â¬500 if you lose/destroy/etc it |
| 14:07.13 | Venemo | s/play/pay |
| 14:07.19 | SpeedEvil | = get phone insurance |
| 14:07.39 | javispedro | also, look at this IRC log, if there's something we could not say we've probably already said it =) |
| 14:07.45 | aapo | a) if I get something running on it, can I take video and image and post it on my blog? |
| 14:07.59 | Venemo | aapo, -> you are forbidden to pubilicize any deficiencies of the device and its software which come from its pre-release nature |
| 14:08.09 | Venemo | aapo, you can publicize good points, you can take pics, etc. |
| 14:08.17 | Venemo | aapo, but you can NOT make blog post about how crap it is |
| 14:08.41 | aapo | venemo, ok. Can I report any challenges I encounter? |
| 14:09.04 | SpeedEvil | In order for that clause to apply, wouldn't the device need to be planned to be released? |
| 14:09.14 | aapo | can I speak about bugs? e.g. in nano, which is not meant for end-users? |
| 14:09.17 | Venemo | aapo, I think so... |
| 14:09.22 | Venemo | SpeedEvil, the software will be. |
| 14:09.46 | Venemo | aapo, not sure. if I were you, I would be very light on mentioning bugs |
| 14:10.02 | Termana | javispedro, and that allows anyone else who agreed to the agreement to talk about it, under the clauses that allow public information to be discussed |
| 14:10.07 | Termana | 7. The foregoing obligations shall not apply to any Information which |
| 14:10.08 | Termana | (a) is publicly available at the time of disclosure or later becomes publicly available through no fault of the Receiving Party; |
| 14:10.19 | aapo | venemo: ok. |
| 14:10.38 | Venemo | indeed |
| 14:10.50 | aapo | what is place to report bugs (if they are meant to be hidden of public)? |
| 14:11.03 | Termana | aapo, you don't report bugs. |
| 14:11.05 | SpeedEvil | In general, they are reportedly not wanting reports. |
| 14:11.11 | SpeedEvil | As the software is a _very_ old version. |
| 14:11.19 | Venemo | it is >5 weeks old |
| 14:11.27 | Venemo | so they probably fixed your bug by now |
| 14:11.27 | aapo | termana, how they get fixed then? |
| 14:11.29 | javispedro | though, http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/enter_bug.cgi |
| 14:11.34 | javispedro | at least for SDK bugs |
| 14:11.35 | javispedro | . |
| 14:12.24 | javispedro | also, device bugs: http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/buglist.cgi?product=MeeGo%201.2%20Harmattan&component=Device&resolution=--- =) |
| 14:13.32 | Termana | aapo, there are several ways to answer that question, but, the same way as if we weren't being given devices - the team that's working on it will need to discover it. |
| 14:13.55 | Termana | If they haven't already and fixed it |
| 14:14.13 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: the fork happened quite some time before those 5 weeks you mentioned |
| 14:14.41 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, oh, right. you already mentioned once or twice |
| 14:14.51 | Venemo | mewants new sw image |
| 14:16.04 | javispedro | thinks that generally, one should not worry much about the NDA unless one works for engadget, and that in fact, bugs might be filled. |
| 14:16.55 | aapo | another topic: what is state of 'extras-devel for harmattan'? I understand concept of own PPA, but how about one single place for (needed) community made libraries? |
| 14:17.32 | DocScrutinizer | thinks Nokia has no manpower to assign to triaging bugs filed against a months-old fork of an OS that seen ~3000 bugfixes since that fork |
| 14:17.57 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: I think you're overstimating the amount of bugfixing work that can be done in a month. |
| 14:18.01 | aapo | I can see two packages on: http://repo.pub.meego.com/repositories/MeeGo/1.2/Harmattan/Apps-testing/armel/ |
| 14:18.15 | *** join/#harmattan piggz (~piggz@host-78-145-113-162.as13285.net) |
| 14:18.19 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: my current opinion is that whatever image is the most recent will not be that different from ours. |
| 14:18.27 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: no estimations in my rationale |
| 14:18.35 | javispedro | except of course it will not have all the "preparations" that have been done for ours |
| 14:18.43 | javispedro | (search for all those "-dadd" packages) |
| 14:18.54 | SpeedEvil | Unless they're doing more UI stuff |
| 14:18.59 | SpeedEvil | that they don't want to leak to the proles. |
| 14:19.10 | Venemo | javispedro, "-dadd"? |
| 14:19.12 | SpeedEvil | Which seems likely. |
| 14:19.17 | piggz | hi ppl....who has synced with google over mfe? im not getting my contacts in |
| 14:19.40 | javispedro | so, to sum it up: I say file a bug if you want to see it changed before PR1.1 . |
| 14:19.48 | javispedro | and even if you do, you're probably late already. |
| 14:20.07 | DocScrutinizer | right |
| 14:20.33 | *** join/#harmattan cpscotti (~cpscotti@87.115.238.133) |
| 14:20.47 | javispedro | Venemo: in dpkg -l, lots of dadd packages, which as I found while removing the developer edition branding means sth like "developer edition addin" |
| 14:21.01 | Venemo | aaah |
| 14:21.06 | DocScrutinizer | I think there is a way more recent firmware image for N9 and for nokia internals, and we just may hope we eventually will participate |
| 14:21.29 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, maybe if we bug some guys from Nokia on this channel, they may leak it to us |
| 14:21.58 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: recent, sure. different, on the other hand... |
| 14:22.49 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: konttori clearly said "your version lacks the ~3000 bugfixes we have in the recent image since fork" |
| 14:23.34 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: check #maemo chanlogs |
| 14:23.39 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-07-13.log.html#t2011-07-13T19:14:46 |
| 14:26.17 | piggz | im not keen on just how tich the usb cable is...is the port more secure than the n900? |
| 14:26.48 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, I linked to the original statement of konttori there - it puts my statement about fork happening much earlier a bit on question, but it says "3000 bugs fixed, so yours is far from reality" |
| 14:28.28 | DocScrutinizer | piggz: yes, the port is a thru-hole component and won't come out unless you tear the PCB in two pieces |
| 14:29.02 | DocScrutinizer | at least that's what I think to have seen, with magnifying glass |
| 14:29.05 | piggz | DocScrutinizer: thank goodness :D ...... ive always been very careful with the n900, knowing about the problem |
| 14:29.36 | piggz | the cable that came with the n900 is a slighly looser fit in the n950, compared to the one with the n950 |
| 14:30.09 | DocScrutinizer | yes, the CA-179 is crap |
| 14:30.30 | Venemo | hm, is it a problem if I've used N900's cable with N950 so far? |
| 14:30.33 | DocScrutinizer | I prefer the CA-101 |
| 14:31.06 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: the problem is you didn't notice how crappy CA-179 is |
| 14:31.23 | javispedro | 's n950 hostname : "harmy" |
| 14:31.36 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, that is right, I did not notice it is crappy |
| 14:31.36 | DocScrutinizer | yours, or stock? |
| 14:31.48 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: yours, stock is the usual Nokia-etc |
| 14:31.57 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 14:32.18 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: how's kernel building coming along? |
| 14:32.43 | javispedro | well ,maybe I should retry what I did yesterday today considering Aegis seems to be in a better mood. |
| 14:32.54 | DocScrutinizer | hehehe |
| 14:32.59 | DocScrutinizer | maybe |
| 14:34.35 | *** join/#harmattan smoku (~spectrum@xkh0g2.infr.xiaoka.com) |
| 14:34.41 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, why is it crappy? |
| 14:35.45 | javispedro | oooh |
| 14:35.49 | javispedro | aegis is today VERY workable |
| 14:36.00 | javispedro | it just granted me CAP::net_bind_service |
| 14:38.38 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: how did yu bribe it? |
| 14:39.05 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: |
| 14:39.09 | javispedro | http://pastebin.com/3KtzcnEf |
| 14:41.09 | aapo | have somebody already bricked+flashed N950? Does it work? Is this right tool: https://www.developer.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/db230178-aa63-4c73-ba7f-20930da13cad/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers.html |
| 14:42.09 | *** join/#harmattan mzanetti (~micha@2001:4dd0:fddf:0:21c:b3ff:fec3:e17a) |
| 14:50.37 | javispedro | and... portmapper working! |
| 14:51.59 | javispedro | I wonder if there's a list around specyfing which credentials a "developer" package is able to request. |
| 14:55.25 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: where do you implant that magic spell? |
| 14:55.39 | DocScrutinizer | aapo: yes, and yes |
| 14:55.39 | javispedro | .deb package |
| 14:56.02 | DocScrutinizer | aapo: and works as advertised |
| 14:56.21 | aapo | DocScrutinizer: thanks, good to know |
| 14:56.41 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: good question |
| 14:57.34 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: the infamous Nokia master public signatures are in /var/lib/aegis/domains |
| 14:58.18 | SpeedEvil | Someone should make a distributed public key cracking app. :) |
| 14:58.30 | javispedro | oh |
| 14:58.36 | javispedro | you can edit this file in develsh mode |
| 15:00.09 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: aiui there's absolutely no use in editing it, as it probably needs a signature from same private key as the root cert in ROM |
| 15:00.38 | javispedro | hum |
| 15:00.44 | javispedro | it's not in aegis hashed files list. |
| 15:01.07 | javispedro | either way I do not know how to sign packages at all for the time being. |
| 15:01.37 | javispedro | hashed files list is in /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist |
| 15:02.08 | javispedro | aiui, this get loaded into the kernel during very early boot |
| 15:02.46 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: a mount is very enlightening |
| 15:03.03 | DocScrutinizer | rhe lines more to the bottom ;-) |
| 15:03.44 | javispedro | uh |
| 15:03.46 | DocScrutinizer | aegisfs on /etc/ssl/certs |
| 15:03.47 | javispedro | my passwords are on there. |
| 15:04.24 | Venemo | but, srsly? why Aegis? |
| 15:04.28 | Venemo | why isn't SELinux enough? |
| 15:04.53 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: that's a question "beyond the scope of this channel" |
| 15:04.57 | javispedro | found it |
| 15:05.05 | javispedro | found the list of credentials granted to devs |
| 15:05.14 | javispedro | it's on /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf |
| 15:05.24 | javispedro | aegis-developer-unknown-source-policy |
| 15:05.42 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, humm |
| 15:06.33 | javispedro | full list: |
| 15:06.33 | javispedro | http://pastebin.com/KPX88Sgh |
| 15:06.50 | javispedro | so that's all you can grant to a non-nokia package |
| 15:06.58 | javispedro | everything else, SORRY!. |
| 15:07.18 | javispedro | specially note no setuid/setgid, so forget about daemons that drop privileges that way. |
| 15:09.48 | flux | javispedro, hmm, so sshd works only because it's from nokia? |
| 15:11.03 | flux | javispedro, what does it mean to have ie. UID::user there? |
| 15:11.05 | DocScrutinizer | I just had a very comfortingly thought: Nokia *always* messed sth up with configuration/packaging/maintenance of their maemo system. So why should they get *everything* "right" with aegis? And it's an immanent property of such a chain-of-trust architecture that one single point of failure compromises the whole security. IOW find a single ill-configured manifest and you "rooted aegis" - once you fully understand how to mess with it in |
| 15:11.07 | DocScrutinizer | any way you like |
| 15:11.21 | javispedro | yes, sshd is "com.nokia.maemo.system-services" |
| 15:11.32 | javispedro | and thus has chown, fsetid, setuid, setgid granted |
| 15:12.10 | Stskeeps | does any derived apps have the same? :P |
| 15:12.32 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: there's plenty of stuff about R&D signatures, which I'm starting to guess it's the way to enable "open mode |
| 15:12.33 | javispedro | " |
| 15:12.38 | flux | from security point of view I guess it doesn't matter a lot. you can just drop all priviledges? or will you still be able to modify files as root? |
| 15:13.28 | DocScrutinizer | even better: aiui there's no revoke lists or anything like that |
| 15:13.48 | javispedro | Stskeeps: I do not know how inheriting credentials works, but develsh has all of the credentials and I couldn't spawn from it a portmap that did setgid(daemon); |
| 15:13.54 | Stskeeps | :nod: |
| 15:15.00 | Stskeeps | is it just me or is the voices of Drive horribly distorted? |
| 15:15.04 | DocScrutinizer | honestly this friggin aegis thing either has to vanish, or somebody @ nokia damn publish a howto for it |
| 15:15.33 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: heh, I'm sure someone @ nokia is now saying "you should have payed MORE attention to aegis talks!" ;) |
| 15:15.53 | javispedro | "but I though you weren't that serious!" |
| 15:16.01 | javispedro | "YES WE WERE!" |
| 15:16.07 | DocScrutinizer | I opted for developing on linux, NOT on aegis |
| 15:16.10 | Stskeeps | don't worry, we won't have aegis in meego.com CE |
| 15:16.10 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 15:16.30 | Venemo | is Aegis a Nokia development? |
| 15:16.35 | Stskeeps | we'll just be using the TPM chip to randomly take pictures of you and your loved ones in compromised situations |
| 15:16.37 | DocScrutinizer | basically yes |
| 15:16.55 | Stskeeps | to finance the development team ;) |
| 15:17.53 | javispedro | that team will soon be psychopathic if you look at geek's "compromised" situations photos ;) |
| 15:18.04 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: the aegis flavour seems a Nokia variant of the larger age old notorious security framework/TC concept |
| 15:19.02 | javispedro | flux: (UID::user) dunno so far, maybe accessing files owned by user or similar. |
| 15:19.18 | javispedro | what I know for sure is that CAP::* maps to linux capabilities 1:1 |
| 15:19.19 | flux | so, does aegis help? I'm guessing for example the web browser or mail agents won't have sufficiently reduced access permissions to remove the ability to do some damage.. |
| 15:19.40 | DocScrutinizer | ""sorry team, no money here, no matter how unpleasant the photos you got. But I can share some of that pizza I stole, do you like?"" |
| 15:19.45 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, but what is the point of it? |
| 15:19.56 | DocScrutinizer | ~aegis |
| 15:19.56 | infobot | from memory, aegis is http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism |
| 15:20.08 | piggz | ahh, atleast, that was a monumantal delay...i thought id proken the rss feeds app as it wasnt starting, but 30 seconds later it fired up |
| 15:20.20 | Venemo | thx |
| 15:20.40 | javispedro | notes that you _COULD_ implement an android-like permission system -- "would you like to allow RandomHackerApplication to read your address book?" -- on top of aegis |
| 15:21.04 | javispedro | but so far, I see no UI for that, and instead if (comes_from_nokia) allow_everything() |
| 15:21.12 | DocScrutinizer | sure, you *could* |
| 15:21.14 | javispedro | maybe Ovi will have some of that. |
| 15:22.52 | DocScrutinizer | honestly I'm NOT willing to become an aegis expert. Gimme a 2 pages mini-howto, with all the magic incantations listed there, and I may reconsider sending back this aegis coffing with the tag "USELESS CRAP" |
| 15:23.29 | DocScrutinizer | s/coffing/coffin/ |
| 15:24.07 | piggz | im surprised how much looks familar when compared to n900ce..it kinda is good to know some things are shared |
| 15:24.32 | javispedro | familiar wasn't a Gtk+ distro? |
| 15:24.36 | javispedro | ah |
| 15:24.40 | javispedro | sorry, misparsed. |
| 15:24.43 | DocScrutinizer | alternatively give me a true developer environment where aegis is *completely* eradicated |
| 15:24.44 | piggz | heh |
| 15:25.16 | Venemo | couldn't one just remove it from the kernel and be done with it? |
| 15:25.19 | lcuk | i don't mind aegis |
| 15:25.31 | lcuk | once things are installed it prevents random single file updates |
| 15:25.48 | Venemo | lcuk, it prevents DocScrutinizer from developing usb hostmode for us |
| 15:25.49 | javispedro | I _want_ aegis, as long as I'm in control. |
| 15:25.57 | Venemo | javispedro ++ |
| 15:26.16 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: you obviously missed last 30min as well as previous chats about how aegis is spoiling every devel's day |
| 15:26.18 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, find out how to update the sha hash |
| 15:26.35 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: NO I WONT! |
| 15:26.47 | Stskeeps | yawns |
| 15:26.54 | DocScrutinizer | I am not in for learning/hacking FSCKNG aegis! |
| 15:26.55 | lcuk | i enjoyed learning about it |
| 15:27.06 | lcuk | and made a deb package in fremantle scratchbox to cure issue |
| 15:27.14 | DocScrutinizer | that's your cup of tea |
| 15:27.27 | Venemo | lcuk, maybe you could help DocScrutinizer with it then? |
| 15:27.46 | lcuk | package up your file and see if aegis will let it update? |
| 15:27.48 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer does not even want to build a deb ;) |
| 15:28.16 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro tried to build a *stock* unchanged kernel yesterday, flashed it ->instant FAIL, panic |
| 15:28.38 | javispedro | indeed. |
| 15:28.52 | DocScrutinizer | so WHAT THE F***!? |
| 15:28.58 | Venemo | there is a 110k+ LoC diff between Maemo 6 kernel and stock kernel with the same version |
| 15:29.01 | flux | docscrutinizer, so, it booted, but failed to mount root? |
| 15:29.09 | javispedro | it was stock harmattan kernel |
| 15:29.12 | lcuk | what is this "kernel" thing anyway, do I need it, can't you just uninstall it and run harmattan? :P |
| 15:29.17 | Stskeeps | javispedro: deb or manual flashing? |
| 15:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: FU |
| 15:29.32 | flux | docscrutinizer, I mean, if it starts, isn't that like that the game is won already? |
| 15:29.32 | javispedro | Stskeeps: -k -l -b, but built from the src package. |
| 15:29.46 | Stskeeps | javispedro: what message did you get? |
| 15:29.52 | Stskeeps | and were you in developer mode? |
| 15:30.12 | javispedro | (dev mode) yes, and no message at all other than rapidly blinking led then shutdown. |
| 15:30.23 | javispedro | this was stock config, so not even console FB. |
| 15:30.56 | *** join/#harmattan rlinfati (~rlinfati@151.81.150.188) |
| 15:30.57 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer pointed that I did not rebuild the modules, I did not thought that the vermagic had changed, |
| 15:31.09 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: sorry, but I'm losing my countenance |
| 15:31.14 | javispedro | but seemingly due to aegis kernel has some more "strict" hasing (CONFIG_MODULE_ELF_HASH?") |
| 15:31.45 | Stskeeps | javispedro: i'll ask around, fairly sure that's supposed to work |
| 15:32.12 | Stskeeps | javispedro: well, at least booting your own kernel and rootfs |
| 15:32.22 | javispedro | the key here is "your own rootfs" |
| 15:32.28 | javispedro | I was trying to boot Harmattan. |
| 15:32.32 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@84-231-105-241.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 15:32.36 | Stskeeps | right, but even that |
| 15:32.45 | javispedro | (because I bet N950ce works ;) ) |
| 15:33.00 | javispedro | and that if you installed aegis there, accli -I would say "Device mode: OPEN" :) |
| 15:33.01 | djszapi | Hi! Does anybody know where I could download the libncursesw5-dev package if it is possible ? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ -> I did not find it here. |
| 15:33.06 | Venemo | any news about FMTX/FMRX in N950? |
| 15:33.08 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, it was understood that aegis would be on the device |
| 15:33.09 | Stskeeps | i'd (personally) enable consolefb just to see what's going on |
| 15:33.14 | lcuk | and the n950-ce build is coming |
| 15:33.18 | lcuk | which has no such aegis |
| 15:33.21 | lcuk | and is meego pure |
| 15:33.46 | Venemo | lcuk, it seems that DocScrutinizer doesn't care about meego |
| 15:33.51 | djszapi | I do not think that is good if something has no security... |
| 15:34.42 | lcuk | djszapi, I agree, i found out about the install permissions thing quite early on |
| 15:34.45 | djszapi | There was an aegis-like smack kernel implementation for meego, but they dropped it. |
| 15:34.56 | lcuk | it is a nice thing actually knowing that files are only coming from packages |
| 15:35.12 | djszapi | I think the Harmattan security is the best ever :) |
| 15:35.21 | djszapi | That was also the feedback from Android guys. |
| 15:35.38 | javispedro | I'll say that when I see the "Application wants to open Address Book, allow?" |
| 15:35.48 | javispedro | until that, this is more DRM-like than security-like. |
| 15:35.52 | dm8tbr | I think it has merits as long as you are able to control it if you really own the device |
| 15:36.19 | dm8tbr | e.g. install an own signing certificate that you can use for development etc |
| 15:36.25 | rlinfati | the flasher can reboot the n950 if it's in pc_suite (ovi) mode :S |
| 15:36.42 | djszapi | javispedro: DRM has been completely dropped... |
| 15:37.04 | djszapi | quite a while ago. |
| 15:37.07 | flux | rlinfati, isn't that like a feature? |
| 15:37.08 | Stskeeps | heh, nice feature |
| 15:37.09 | dm8tbr | drm in portable devices is dead |
| 15:37.54 | rlinfati | flux, not for me.... i run the all-in-one flasher to extract the firmware.... and it's reboot my phone and flash-it !! |
| 15:38.27 | flux | rlinfati, so how is flasher supposed to work, if you don't enter the flash mode? |
| 15:38.52 | Venemo | hm |
| 15:39.16 | flux | rlinfati, hm, how is the firmware extracted? from the device? |
| 15:39.25 | djszapi | dm8tbr: I agree with you about that the usability is also very important. However what is on the meego front, selinux, that is far away from usability pov. |
| 15:39.55 | flux | someone should do a writeup on how selinux and aegis differ from each other :) |
| 15:40.04 | dm8tbr | djszapi: selinux is a pain to configure I've heard, dunno if that would work well enough for embedded |
| 15:40.05 | djszapi | flux: there is |
| 15:40.05 | rlinfati | run Linux_OCF_22-6_EMMC_RM680-OEM1-916.bin and see /tmp/selfextracted.... |
| 15:40.15 | flux | djszapi, cool! you know the url? |
| 15:40.26 | djszapi | dm8btr: yeah it has been very hard and Linus accepted a new kernel approach :) |
| 15:40.36 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: so WTF do *devels* need a "protected" devise?????? |
| 15:40.52 | djszapi | is this question serious ? |
| 15:40.59 | DocScrutinizer | YES |
| 15:41.27 | djszapi | well, I would not like to use my data and having the part of other cheats that happened quite soonish with windows systems. |
| 15:41.34 | djszapi | * to lose my data |
| 15:41.38 | DocScrutinizer | there's a devel-mode and a "normal" mode - you'd thing devel mode should just completely KILL aegis |
| 15:41.42 | piggz | becuase you need to devel/test on a framework that is similar to the consumer device too |
| 15:41.43 | djszapi | even if I develop an application. |
| 15:41.56 | DocScrutinizer | think* |
| 15:42.03 | DocScrutinizer | omg |
| 15:42.04 | djszapi | I would never use devel mode that... |
| 15:42.04 | rlinfati | reading /usr/include/cellular-qt/CellularQt/networkcell.h |
| 15:42.09 | djszapi | * then |
| 15:42.25 | djszapi | however it might kill most of it, though. |
| 15:42.30 | DocScrutinizer | piggz: seen my comment one line above about that mode switching? |
| 15:42.32 | djszapi | What is wrong about the open mode ? |
| 15:42.35 | Venemo | SELinux _can_ be turned off... |
| 15:42.44 | piggz | DocScrutinizer: yeah, just after i wrote it ;) |
| 15:42.45 | djszapi | that is the best feature of it :) |
| 15:42.53 | Venemo | lol |
| 15:42.53 | javispedro | djszapi: there's nothing wrong, but _how to enter open mode???_ |
| 15:43.01 | djszapi | that is the default... |
| 15:43.03 | djszapi | on the N950 devices. |
| 15:43.08 | Venemo | OMG |
| 15:43.08 | javispedro | nope |
| 15:43.20 | Venemo | if this is open mode, what is the closed mode? |
| 15:43.21 | javispedro | # accli -I |
| 15:43.21 | javispedro | Current mode: normal |
| 15:43.29 | javispedro | this is closed mode. |
| 15:43.36 | Venemo | mhm |
| 15:43.42 | djszapi | javispedro: did you also check the settings ? |
| 15:43.45 | Venemo | isn't there some kernel parameter or something? |
| 15:44.08 | javispedro | the settings is what seems to be called "developer mode", which grants a reduced set of permissions to the "" source (aka developer source) |
| 15:44.15 | javispedro | but this set of credentials does not even include setgid. |
| 15:44.34 | javispedro | and obviously not a way to load kernel modules. |
| 15:44.50 | javispedro | ie I cannot remove the "seal" bit from aegis, and put it in non-enforcing mode |
| 15:44.53 | djszapi | you can grant that kind of permission via a manifest file. |
| 15:44.57 | javispedro | nope |
| 15:45.09 | djszapi | why not ? (I could) |
| 15:45.09 | javispedro | because it is "" source, and CAP::setgid is not granted to SRC:. |
| 15:45.31 | djszapi | mmm |
| 15:45.38 | *** join/#harmattan NIN101 (~NIN101@p5DD2985F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:46.08 | javispedro | Package portmap: denied 'CAP::setgid' -- origin '' does not allow it |
| 15:46.13 | djszapi | javispedro: is aegis-exec available ? (I do not have a device by hand) |
| 15:46.19 | javispedro | yes |
| 15:46.29 | lcuk | one question, if I install a fart app and it gets restricted, does it become trapped wind? |
| 15:46.33 | djszapi | you can grant that way permission to the processes. |
| 15:46.45 | javispedro | last time I tried that we ended up bricking DocScrutinizer's device |
| 15:46.54 | DocScrutinizer | shakes head, deeply depressed about the indiscriminate hype of aegis/SF that some people display here, esp those who obviously haven't really looked into how it works wnd what it means for developers |
| 15:47.11 | flux | I think it was explained here that aegis-exec doesn't actually grant any priviledges, it rather drops them? |
| 15:47.21 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, mjority of developers can install/update/remove packages |
| 15:47.27 | javispedro | djszapi: this is what happened when we tried to grant setgid to bash: http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10170 |
| 15:47.41 | djszapi | is checking :) |
| 15:47.54 | Venemo | lcuk, Aegis prevents the SDK from implementing the "skip packaging step" feature (best feature for Maemo5) |
| 15:48.03 | Venemo | lcuk, and this makes debugging my app a very clumsy process |
| 15:48.06 | djszapi | yeah, you can remove the malfunction entry after reboot, but this is odd. |
| 15:48.16 | lcuk | Venemo, i understand |
| 15:48.32 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: btw, how did you install that bash package? from Nokia repo iirc? |
| 15:48.34 | djszapi | Venemo: not sure what you are doing, but I did not feel anything special while debugging my app. |
| 15:48.43 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: yup |
| 15:49.04 | Venemo | djszapi, do you know what happens when you click on the Run button in Qt Creator? |
| 15:49.42 | javispedro | either way, the fact that we already have two persons that are surprised to see that Aegis is "that restrictive" to us makes me thing there's something that has not been de/activated on our images :S |
| 15:49.51 | javispedro | *think ;P |
| 15:51.11 | javispedro | (and should have) |
| 15:52.01 | djszapi | Venemo: nope, I do not use QtCreator, but someone was complaining about that it worked without QtCreator but not with that. Some dbus related application. |
| 15:52.09 | lcuk | gah |
| 15:52.30 | lcuk | the calendar whole screen kinetics is nudged by swipe |
| 15:52.49 | Venemo | djszapi, well, basically Qt Creator builds a .deb package every time I click on Run, which means that I basically lose a minute of my life every time I run my app. |
| 15:52.50 | djszapi | javispedro: well, meego was always much worse on N900 |
| 15:53.03 | Venemo | djszapi, people claim it's because Aegis prevents just copying over the binary and executing it |
| 15:53.13 | lcuk | Venemo, no you gain a minute to think of the next step |
| 15:53.15 | djszapi | DocScrutnizier: I think the worse hype is that it is sold as a complete meego system |
| 15:53.20 | DocScrutinizer | there is *definitely* no use whatsoever in protecting developers from their own mess. Please stop even thinking about that - rather give us a developer- aka open-mode that's *really* _completely_ open. If anybody feels threatened by this, he's a) no developer, and b) not understanding that he can implement additional restrictions to his liking |
| 15:53.23 | Venemo | lcuk, I know the steps. |
| 15:53.31 | lcuk | Venemo, sure |
| 15:53.34 | Venemo | lcuk, I usually do before I begin coding :) |
| 15:53.39 | lcuk | i say the same thing and at some parts of development |
| 15:53.43 | djszapi | Venemo: that is actually true, you cannot run your own binary, that is why this SDK is existing.... |
| 15:53.56 | lcuk | that delay between code/test/modify cycle is important |
| 15:54.01 | djszapi | there is a serious hash calculation (integrity protection) in the background. |
| 15:54.03 | rlinfati | any tips to use maps ? i can not login (service unavailable ) |
| 15:54.03 | lcuk | and even extra seconds is bad |
| 15:54.07 | lcuk | vs whole minutes |
| 15:54.13 | lcuk | really does understand ;) |
| 15:54.18 | Venemo | djszapi, building a package takes a long time and it ruins the debugging experience |
| 15:54.19 | flux | what the approach prevents as well if just having the .py on the device and developing it there |
| 15:54.29 | flux | completely eliminating any delay induced by even copying the file |
| 15:54.44 | Venemo | djszapi, WP7 is an equally (if not more) closed platform, and still, VS can make my app run on the device instantly |
| 15:54.44 | djszapi | Venemo: well you should use cmake |
| 15:54.46 | djszapi | if it is that big issue for you. |
| 15:55.04 | Venemo | djszapi, while Qt Creator can't. |
| 15:55.05 | flux | of course, any programs that can be run through an interpreter can avoid the signature checking.. |
| 15:55.13 | djszapi | Venemo: complain to QtCreator |
| 15:55.13 | javispedro | flux: I use a NFS mount to mount from device my host computer, so it's like if both computers are the same ;) |
| 15:55.19 | Venemo | djszapi, I opened a bug. :) |
| 15:55.30 | djszapi | Venemo: you can also run an own script which updates the binary hash |
| 15:55.39 | mzanetti | Venemo: I just hit a floating point exception in your app when clicking the play button in your app. |
| 15:55.44 | djszapi | if it is /really/ that big problem for you. |
| 15:55.45 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: who are you to teach us about important cycles in development? |
| 15:55.49 | lcuk | djszapi, Venemo is highly active hacker and has wide experience developing and packaging cross platform |
| 15:55.51 | djszapi | Other than that I guess the developer mode should enable you to update binary and run it without packaging |
| 15:55.58 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, ? |
| 15:56.01 | djszapi | Venemo: the problem is that you do not have proper source origin |
| 15:56.05 | lcuk | i was talking with Venemo |
| 15:56.15 | DocScrutinizer | <lcuk> Venemo, no you gain a minute to think of the next step |
| 15:56.20 | javispedro | aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec does enable you to run unsigned binaries |
| 15:56.23 | javispedro | but only as user |
| 15:56.25 | djszapi | this way, you should use the developer mode, but do not forget the image is slightly old on that device. Not sure how much it concern on the aegis implementation |
| 15:56.28 | javispedro | not root, for some reason (not totally understood yet) |
| 15:56.34 | DocScrutinizer | <lcuk> that delay between code/test/modify cycle is important |
| 15:56.51 | Venemo | well the point is |
| 15:57.01 | djszapi | javispedro: root would not make sense |
| 15:57.11 | Venemo | when I make a single line modification in my QML, I want to know INSTANTLY the result |
| 15:57.16 | Venemo | the required compile time is 0 |
| 15:57.21 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, it was conversation and agreement with him, wassup with that? |
| 15:57.21 | djszapi | root is not that "approach" like with the general POSIX capability approach |
| 15:57.24 | Venemo | so the packaging shit is an overhead |
| 15:57.26 | Venemo | and that's it. |
| 15:57.45 | lcuk | good for first install :P |
| 15:57.51 | lcuk | and if things change in your package |
| 15:58.01 | djszapi | Venemo: no it is not |
| 15:58.22 | djszapi | Venemo: I would not like to have own installation and pollute my system actually. But you have been told how to do it anyway. |
| 16:00.59 | Venemo | djszapi, so, maybe ask MS how they manage to launch my app instantly and then find a way on the N950 to do the same |
| 16:01.21 | Venemo | when I debug it, I don't care for the packaging. if I want to package it, I package it. |
| 16:02.31 | aapo | javispedro: is SDL on your PPA working on N950? I just tested sdl-hello, but it is seg faulting for start. Is there something I should use for resolution and flags? |
| 16:02.39 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: who cares what you don't want? if you're not capable of coping with it and implement / follow your own restrictions defined to your liking, you suggest rather Nokia should implement those restrictions for all of us? Very polite, thanks for partonizing me. |
| 16:02.52 | javispedro | aapo: I cannot really completely build it until nokia-binaries is imported into COBS :( |
| 16:03.03 | javispedro | aapo: for now, get it from git and built it on your sbox |
| 16:03.47 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: we're still debating DEVELOPER mode here |
| 16:03.47 | aapo | javispedro: do you mean upstream sdl git or maemo specific? |
| 16:04.06 | javispedro | aapo: any will work unless you want multitouch or GLES |
| 16:04.16 | javispedro | then you can install mine on device |
| 16:04.50 | aapo | javispedro: ok, very this moment I just want see something on the screen, later GLES+multitouch |
| 16:05.08 | javispedro | :) |
| 16:05.18 | javispedro | I am looking for some cool demo with GLES2 and multitouch |
| 16:05.23 | javispedro | like a water ripple effect shader or sth |
| 16:05.26 | javispedro | if you find one tell me :) |
| 16:11.52 | javispedro | crosses fingers and runs aegis-exec -a CAP::setgid portmap -v -f -d |
| 16:12.33 | javispedro | INSTABRICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 16:12.39 | javispedro | wonderful. |
| 16:12.41 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: what do you mean ? Cannot you turn into "proper" developer mode ? What is your exact issue ? |
| 16:13.09 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: confirming, it was me who bricked your device, as running that has caused exactly the same big warning icon. |
| 16:13.28 | javispedro | harmy is dead |
| 16:14.00 | DocScrutinizer | Heh congrats, welcome to the club :-D |
| 16:14.02 | djszapi | Venemo: ask MS about Harmattan ? Sounds weird. Did you try what javispedro said ? |
| 16:15.03 | javispedro | now, how to unbrick this ? =) |
| 16:15.52 | javispedro | oh, harmy is alive! |
| 16:16.16 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: triple reboot fixed it :P |
| 16:16.22 | DocScrutinizer | duh |
| 16:16.54 | javispedro | still in closed mode |
| 16:16.57 | DocScrutinizer | how cute and smart and cool this aegis is! really great |
| 16:16.59 | javispedro | seems everything is the same |
| 16:17.40 | GAN900 | I think Amazon--ordered Friday--may beat out the N950. |
| 16:17.54 | javispedro | GAN900: hey, it did for me. |
| 16:18.04 | DocScrutinizer | goes bathroom, puking a bit, then for some nicer times in beergarden. Feels sick with harmattan |
| 16:18.42 | DocScrutinizer | o/ |
| 16:18.47 | javispedro | cya DocScrutinizer |
| 16:18.56 | djszapi | javispedro: I think you can remove the related entry, or did I not boot after that "brick" ? |
| 16:19.19 | aapo | what is wrong with my root, it can't kill user's processes?? |
| 16:20.18 | javispedro | djszapi: for some reason, after running the command you get the big warning icon that was shown on that photo. then I rebooted it via powerbutton, and got big warning icon. Power button did nothing, so I had to hold it for a while until it shutted down |
| 16:20.20 | DocScrutinizer | aapo: haha, aegis |
| 16:20.26 | djszapi | aapo: if it does not have the proper credential, it cannot |
| 16:20.40 | javispedro | djszapi: turning it back on this third time didn't show the big warning icon and proceeded to normal boot. |
| 16:21.20 | aapo | Announcement: initial version of Tuxpaint running on N950. Not usable yet, screen is flickering, but I can draw with it =) |
| 16:21.31 | aapo | btw: do we have official channel for announcements? |
| 16:21.47 | djszapi | let us say, you as a user would not like anybody make anything with your data for instance. Root could even do that, but this way it cannot. |
| 16:21.47 | djszapi | javispedro: yes, 8+ secs is the hard reset. |
| 16:22.35 | aapo | I think I too hate aegis |
| 16:23.56 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: why cannot you try to understand the security model ? A user device is not really like a Unix workstation... |
| 16:23.56 | djszapi | aapo: why do you hate aegis ? |
| 16:24.36 | javispedro | those old unix bears then to like, you know, being able to kill everything they want when they become root ;) |
| 16:24.41 | javispedro | s/then/tend/ |
| 16:25.00 | aapo | djszapi: a) I have used aegis-developer-mode --relaxed-exec, but still it sometimes whine, and I have rebooted phone to get it stopped |
| 16:25.17 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: on back of my N950 is a *large* printing "DEVELOPER DEVICE" |
| 16:25.29 | Venemo | djszapi, what I said, VS can deploy my app on a WP7 device instantly. so why can't Qt Creator do the same? |
| 16:25.51 | Venemo | anyway, I don't want to argue on this any further, it's pointless |
| 16:26.01 | djszapi | javispedro: I would not really like to have a root uesr doing anything with my user data.... |
| 16:26.01 | djszapi | just if I grant permissions for that... |
| 16:26.01 | djszapi | aapo: please tell me your issue, I try to help if I can |
| 16:26.07 | GAN900 | DocScrutinizer, polish it off yet? |
| 16:26.12 | DocScrutinizer | I didn't apply for the aegis-fieldtest program |
| 16:26.24 | djszapi | javispedro: it is not really a unix workstation, network where you have thousand users and you can do everything you want with those users |
| 16:26.59 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: again, who cares what you'd like root to do or not to do - this is DEVELOPER mode and DEVELOPER device |
| 16:27.10 | djszapi | Venemo: complain to QtCreator |
| 16:27.40 | djszapi | ? |
| 16:27.40 | djszapi | Venemo: you have been told more times how to do it from console. If that works, really complain to QtCreator. |
| 16:27.40 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: Look. I complained about the image version weeks ago, it is really an old image for starter. |
| 16:27.46 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: Second, I could run a binary, thus I do not understand the issue yet properly |
| 16:28.25 | aapo | djszapi: not much more to say. I done needed tricks to get unsigned binaries working, then I left phone for couple of hour and when I continue hacking, it sayd "Error: Permission denied ", Rebooted and it worked again |
| 16:29.01 | djszapi | aapo: this sounds really weird...any scenario to reproduce it ? |
| 16:29.01 | javispedro | aapo: lol, that's exactly what happened to me with portmap |
| 16:29.14 | javispedro | yesterday it did not even want to exec() it |
| 16:29.26 | javispedro | this morning I found that it started runnign it atleast.. |
| 16:29.29 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: The issue is that the role, policies, and operation of aegis is unclear. |
| 16:29.34 | javispedro | had even thanked the gods for that |
| 16:29.42 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: Especially the future state for the n9 release to the public. |
| 16:29.53 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: I did not check the public documentation yet, but isn't there something written how the security model looks like ? |
| 16:29.55 | aapo | djszapi: I think I do not want reproduce it |
| 16:30.05 | javispedro | I at least can't reproduce it |
| 16:30.08 | SpeedEvil | What will it prevent doing at all - for example - can we ever put meego on it? |
| 16:30.09 | djszapi | I am pretty sure there is since Elena hold presentations at the meego conferences and also at the local meetup |
| 16:30.19 | piggz | has anyone ocr'd/typed the code from the front of the box? |
| 16:30.19 | djszapi | aapo: not much to discuss, maybe pebkac then |
| 16:30.22 | javispedro | now I purge portmap, reinstall, whatever, and it always exec() it |
| 16:31.01 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: no, you cannot flash your own image with flasher in my understanding |
| 16:31.17 | djszapi | but this is something I am not sure about yet. |
| 16:31.26 | djszapi | I tried to update the image with some OEM1 internal image, but it did not work |
| 16:31.47 | djszapi | I had to switch back to N9, not sure about that bit. It might be that they provide a more advanced flasher or I do not know that yet |
| 16:31.58 | SpeedEvil | Or especially - given this is likely to get less support than the n900 post-release - how can we work around 'features' in the release image. |
| 16:32.24 | Venemo | djszapi, as I said, I already opened a bug :) |
| 16:32.39 | djszapi | Venemo: please do not blame aegis, if it is a creator bug. |
| 16:33.35 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: to be quite honest. MeeGo never worked for me on N900, not even this ce edition. I know people do not like hearing it, but this is the fact. |
| 16:34.14 | Venemo | worked for me last time I tried. it was incomplete, but hey. |
| 16:34.25 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: Meego-ce has had perhaps three orders of magnitudes fewer man-hours put into it. |
| 16:35.02 | djszapi | Venemo: we have few games and it was not enjoyable at any time, not even few weeks ago I last tried. I really spent serious time with meego testing on N900. |
| 16:35.08 | SpeedEvil | And I'm not talking about the state of meego at n9 releast time even. |
| 16:35.08 | javispedro | I want to try n950ce and see if the 1GiB RAM helps |
| 16:35.24 | SpeedEvil | I'm talking about it a year or so after that. |
| 16:36.08 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: How knows what XXX thinks in one year in this market ? :D :D |
| 16:36.41 | djszapi | * who |
| 16:36.49 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: I know that if I scrape up the cash for a n9, which is debatable - I am unlikely to change it in under a couple of years. |
| 16:37.16 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: I also know that meego will at least somewhat continue development, even if dropped by all corporate sponsors. |
| 16:37.19 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: the point is this is a DEVELOPER DEVICE, with two modes selectable from settings: developer mode ON|OFF. We don't need nor want nor see the use of aegis intercepting *anything* in DEVELOPER mode. We want to develop, not learn aegis - we'll cope with aegis and manifests and packaging .deb and whatnot, when we finished developing our app. We go switching developer mode=off in settings then, and do whatever needed to make aegis |
| 16:37.20 | DocScrutinizer | happy. We really do NOT want to do this *first*, prior to even starting development of our app. Bottom line: the developer mode is way too restrictive, it ideally should just switch off the whole aegis thing |
| 16:37.29 | lcuk | Venemo, did you say earlier you are using wp7 also? which device are you testing on? |
| 16:38.19 | *** join/#harmattan lawl0r (~lawl0r@2001:470:25:1ee:21c:c0ff:fe19:5277) |
| 16:38.23 | Venemo | lcuk, I have no device currently, just the emulator |
| 16:38.42 | lawl0r | just recieved my n950 :D |
| 16:38.44 | lawl0r | so awesome |
| 16:38.45 | lcuk | you said earlier that your code just runs almost instantly on device |
| 16:38.50 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: do not replicate yourself, I understood your purpose. What is not working ? |
| 16:38.53 | lcuk | (comparison to n950 qt creator slow way) |
| 16:38.56 | Venemo | lcuk, because it works with devices too. |
| 16:39.07 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: I agree with you, but this is seriously impossible to plan with one device for years |
| 16:39.22 | lawl0r | but compared to the n900 the n950 is shit |
| 16:39.25 | Venemo | lcuk, I did try WM6.5 dev with running my app on a device, and that was fast too |
| 16:39.33 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: Umm - what do you mean it's impossible to plan? |
| 16:39.38 | Venemo | lcuk, maybe I'll borrow a device for testing |
| 16:39.38 | lawl0r | there is only one cool thing about the n950: aegis |
| 16:39.41 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: *sigh* see backscroll of this very channel, you'll find a dozen things that didn't work same way they would without aegis |
| 16:39.59 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: Well, I do not think I can buy any good phone, that will be supported so long in the current state |
| 16:40.01 | lawl0r | nokia finally realized how to implement a proper security system |
| 16:40.06 | lawl0r | was about damn time |
| 16:40.10 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: basically NOTHING works same way as on a system without aegis |
| 16:40.13 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: The key aspect - 'is it possible to install a new OS or drastically modify the OS on an end user phone' is answerable. |
| 16:40.16 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: first, it was a QtCreator issue |
| 16:40.27 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: Expecting support from nokia - of course not. |
| 16:40.28 | javispedro | btw, you also can't place files in upstart dir (/etc/init) unless they're digsig'd |
| 16:40.36 | djszapi | Second, aegis blaming without proper steps how to reproduce, thoes things I saw |
| 16:40.39 | djszapi | none of them is serious for consideration |
| 16:40.46 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: killing user process when you're root is NOT a QtCreator issue |
| 16:40.49 | Venemo | djszapi, DocScrutinizer is not talking about my little "issue" here... |
| 16:41.10 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: I would be astonished if there was more than one bugfix release of software - post release. |
| 16:41.24 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: You are really not going toward the purpose. If you do not need aegis, turn it off. Doesn't that work or what is your issue ? |
| 16:41.38 | djszapi | Why do you try to use aegis if you do not wanna instead of turning off telling me if it does not work ? |
| 16:41.44 | SpeedEvil | You cannot turn it off. |
| 16:41.47 | DocScrutinizer | I wouldn't even know how to turn it off |
| 16:42.03 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: that's the whole fuss here |
| 16:42.14 | DocScrutinizer | PLEASE let us turn off aegis! |
| 16:42.16 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: I cannot seriously answer the question about the Nokia policy... I do not read hype either. Ask some manager :) |
| 16:43.17 | SpeedEvil | Suggesting 'turn it off' - when it doesn't seem possible to turn it off isn't especially helpful. |
| 16:43.35 | SpeedEvil | And I understand that policy questions are difficult. |
| 16:43.49 | lcuk | can it be apt-get remove'd ? |
| 16:44.10 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: I (or we) understood that developer mode was supposed to turn off aegis - obviously it does NOT |
| 16:44.28 | lcuk | when was it documented that developer mode would do that? |
| 16:45.09 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: when did you learn to post this type of trolling questions? |
| 16:45.10 | lcuk | and do we actually know what effect it does have? |
| 16:45.18 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, i ain't trolling |
| 16:45.24 | lcuk | just trying to understand it |
| 16:46.57 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@84-231-105-241.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 16:47.15 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: ok then: no it's never been stated that developer mode would really do this, and no we don't know exactly what parts of the system will act up in a true "open mode" where aegis is down or neutered. As there's no howto about the whole friggin thing |
| 16:47.21 | djszapi | lcuk: not sure you got all my messages. My mobile internet connection is really bad :( |
| 16:47.37 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: You are really confusing the open mode with the developer mode |
| 16:47.53 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: nevertheless e.g frals suggested there'S a way to switch off aegis that will not work on and will brick our "CE devices" |
| 16:49.30 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: maybe I'm confusing it, but that's due to missing docs about the whole topic. All i'm interested in is "how do I turn the system into a mode where things work like 'usual' 99.5% of the cases?" |
| 16:49.35 | djszapi | Does anybody know how to get this package from the public Harmattan repository or from somewhere else ? libncursesw5-dev |
| 16:49.40 | djszapi | I do not see it here, at least: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ |
| 16:50.19 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: If you do not get answer, I try to come back to you on Monday. I cannot do more. If turning off aegis does not work, then it does not work... |
| 16:50.48 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: fair enough, thanks |
| 16:51.01 | javispedro | djszapi: I believe it's the same src package as ascii ncurses |
| 16:51.09 | javispedro | aka "ncurses" |
| 16:51.14 | djszapi | no, it is not |
| 16:51.46 | javispedro | was 80% sure :P |
| 16:51.57 | javispedro | checks |
| 16:52.02 | djszapi | libncurses5-dev and libncursesw5-dev are different packages |
| 16:52.12 | javispedro | yes, but build from the same source |
| 16:52.15 | javispedro | it's just a define |
| 16:52.16 | Venemo | djszapi, since it's a -dev package, could you not try to look in the sdk repo? |
| 16:52.17 | djszapi | as far as ncurses and ncursesw are not the same. |
| 16:52.35 | djszapi | Venemo: I tried here: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ |
| 16:52.49 | Venemo | I see |
| 16:52.57 | djszapi | javispedro: I do not really feel nice building from source, if it is not possible. Hence why I am asking first :p |
| 16:53.07 | djszapi | * if it is possible |
| 16:54.25 | javispedro | djszapi: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/n/ncurses/libncursesw5-dev_5.7+20081213-6-maemo1+0m6_armel.deb |
| 16:54.42 | djszapi | cool thanks :) |
| 16:54.55 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: have you checked with flasher the gadget is in developer mode ? |
| 16:55.05 | djszapi | also the developer flags ? |
| 16:55.06 | javispedro | hooooooow? :) |
| 16:55.17 | javispedro | it's the old plain rd mode? |
| 16:55.18 | djszapi | javispedro: ? |
| 16:55.22 | javispedro | hoow to check that |
| 16:55.36 | djszapi | use flasher |
| 16:56.00 | javispedro | iirc, it was _not_ in R&D mode |
| 16:56.10 | javispedro | is R&D mode == aegis open mode? |
| 16:56.16 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: just note that I'm not exactly asking for "turning off aegis", I'm just interested in aegis allowing random stuff, like e.g. killing user processes when you're root, editing arbitrary files when you're root, generally doing things each devel is used to do since decades. And I understand that some parts of the system might cease to work when aegis is set to this operation mode, whatever it is called "aegis off" or "aegis has a |
| 16:56.18 | DocScrutinizer | policy to allow all in docS-mode" or no matter how it'S achieved |
| 16:56.42 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: no, turning off as a root is against the aegis design |
| 16:56.43 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: no, I didn't know about that |
| 16:57.15 | SpeedEvil | 'turning off when magic switch is pulled' then |
| 16:57.25 | djszapi | javispedro: no it is not as I said above... |
| 16:57.29 | SpeedEvil | I don't think anyone especially cares if it's as root. |
| 16:58.05 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: you cannot edit files of course, that would result no integrity protection. What you want is to turn off aegis if this design is unacceptable for you. |
| 16:58.26 | djszapi | or you canusethe aforementioned cli command for double checking. |
| 16:58.59 | javispedro | djszapi: note that even the nokia wiki pages confuse open and developer modes, but I was talking about r&d mode here (which aiui is another "mode" not aegis related in any way) |
| 16:59.17 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: However you can grant permissions from the manifest file. Again, if this granulraity design is unacceptable for you, please do not use security on your phone. |
| 16:59.37 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: yes I do. |
| 17:00.05 | DocScrutinizer | I'd happily follow your advice, just have no clue HOW to "not use security on my phone" |
| 17:00.17 | djszapi | javispedro: yes, that mode is related to the integrity protection imo. |
| 17:00.40 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: write manifest files if you want to spread the credentials as you want. |
| 17:00.44 | SpeedEvil | djszapiI mean - I don't think anyone especially has the opinion that root should be able to do anything - and would mind if aegis was turn-offable with a magic incantation. |
| 17:00.47 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: "please open nearest trash can, carefully drop phone into trash can device..." ;) |
| 17:01.02 | djszapi | or there is also a package which auto-generates things for you. |
| 17:01.42 | javispedro | and that package is? =) |
| 17:02.20 | djszapi | aegis-manifest-dev |
| 17:02.26 | javispedro | aaaaaaaah. |
| 17:02.28 | javispedro | but but but. |
| 17:02.33 | djszapi | not sure it is enough for you. |
| 17:02.37 | djszapi | for fine granularity though |
| 17:02.37 | javispedro | nope :( |
| 17:02.54 | djszapi | but for basic things, it is fine to forget the manifest writing things |
| 17:02.56 | javispedro | e.g. it is not smart enough to map setgid() -> CAP::ssetgid |
| 17:03.03 | *** join/#harmattan mzanetti (~micha@2001:4dd0:fddf:0:21c:b3ff:fec3:e17a) |
| 17:03.05 | javispedro | but we could fix that |
| 17:03.23 | djszapi | it is very smart and overthought |
| 17:03.28 | Venemo | is Aegis a kernel module btw? or how does it work? |
| 17:03.38 | javispedro | either way that is still part of the packaging process which Doc et all want to avoid. |
| 17:03.39 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: partially, yes |
| 17:03.43 | djszapi | Venemo: I do not know what information is public, what not... |
| 17:03.52 | javispedro | the entire aegis is open source. |
| 17:03.54 | javispedro | well, or most of it. |
| 17:03.54 | djszapi | Venemo: please read the documentation, that is the safest for me :) |
| 17:04.17 | djszapi | Venemo: but basically *in general* security frameworks, like smack, selinux, aegis, etc have kernel parts for sure |
| 17:04.21 | Venemo | how about 'modprobe -r aegis' then? |
| 17:04.25 | djszapi | no, it is not open source.... |
| 17:04.31 | djszapi | not even "most of it". |
| 17:04.49 | javispedro | djszapi: https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security ? |
| 17:04.52 | djszapi | btw, can you download the kernel ? |
| 17:04.58 | djszapi | I did not actually know |
| 17:04.59 | Venemo | doesn't that violate the kernel's GPL license? |
| 17:05.09 | djszapi | but that was my impression the kernel is internal and not open |
| 17:05.10 | djszapi | I might be wrong with this. |
| 17:05.22 | javispedro | yeah, kernel is open, they're not _THAT_ evil ;) |
| 17:05.22 | SpeedEvil | Can't (legally) be. |
| 17:05.32 | djszapi | javispedro: then again *sigh* it is a qtcreator bug |
| 17:05.37 | djszapi | you /can/ run binaries.... |
| 17:05.44 | javispedro | indeed. |
| 17:05.50 | javispedro | but we have several problems here. |
| 17:06.02 | djszapi | javispedro: the kernel is open really ? |
| 17:06.04 | javispedro | probably 5 or 6 "situations that were possible pre-aegis and now aren't" have been mentione |
| 17:06.14 | djszapi | I thought they will not publish it, just binary, mmm |
| 17:06.16 | javispedro | djszapi: all of it that I can see. |
| 17:06.27 | Venemo | djszapi, that is against the kernel's license |
| 17:06.28 | SpeedEvil | You're required under the GPL licence to release kernel source. In general this is dealt with by having an open-source kernel part that talks through a public API to a closed-source userspace part. |
| 17:06.52 | djszapi | Venemo: is also the android kernel open ? |
| 17:06.55 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 17:07.00 | SpeedEvil | In theory. |
| 17:07.08 | javispedro | Android manufactures are way more sloppy. |
| 17:07.17 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: there is no closed userspace part.... |
| 17:07.18 | javispedro | and being based in $REMOTE_COUNTRY hardly sue-able. |
| 17:07.20 | Venemo | djszapi, yes. |
| 17:07.20 | SpeedEvil | Some vendors are better than others at keeping kernel sources up-to-date |
| 17:07.23 | djszapi | if the kernel is open, then 100 % open |
| 17:07.45 | djszapi | at least the aegis part of the platform. |
| 17:08.17 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: that is almost impossible. |
| 17:08.32 | javispedro | if kernel had been closed you'd been hearing from me. Probably with a fitchfork ;) |
| 17:08.47 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: What is almost impossible? |
| 17:08.49 | djszapi | javispedro: ok, I am not a lawyers, I trust you :) |
| 17:08.57 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: to be in sync with upstream. |
| 17:09.11 | djszapi | otherwise you could push your changes to upstream anyway... |
| 17:09.13 | djszapi | if Linus and others accept it for sure :) |
| 17:09.21 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: I mean keeping the released sources in sync with the shipped devices. |
| 17:09.41 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: Not getting 'vanilla' kernel to work - that's impossible in many cases. |
| 17:10.10 | *** join/#harmattan NIN101 (~NIN101@p5DD2985F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:10.56 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: we merged the upstream security fixes back as much as it was possible. |
| 17:11.17 | *** part/#harmattan smoku (~spectrum@xkh0g2.infr.xiaoka.com) |
| 17:11.37 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: yes - that's not what I mean - some vendors release source only months after - or not at all - they update the device kernel. |
| 17:11.58 | djszapi | 20:06 < javispedro> probably 5 or 6 "situations that were possible pre-aegis and now aren't" have been mentione -> There is no 5-6 things here. 1) Turn off aegis 2) Not turn off and learn |
| 17:12.34 | javispedro | until anyone knows how to _temporarily_ disable aegis, that is not a solution. |
| 17:13.10 | javispedro | and as for 2), well, someone needs to put on a wiki page to explain all of the "alternatives" |
| 17:13.23 | djszapi | javispedro: I am not speaking about implementation details. If something is missing or buggy, provide me steps how to reproduce. I got zero. I am more like speaking from the design pov. |
| 17:13.44 | javispedro | noone is saying they are bugs |
| 17:13.54 | javispedro | (well, save for maybe that weird stuff that required a reboot) |
| 17:13.58 | djszapi | Do not forget most of the people left Nokia, there is not much manpower over there right now though for fixes. |
| 17:14.01 | javispedro | but still nuisances. |
| 17:14.57 | javispedro | and imagine now for a moment the amount of _users and developers_ that are going to leave Nokia if they suddenly come to the realitzation that you cannot have real root on the device, or that you cannot package a daemon that requires setgid without a com.nokia.maemo signature. |
| 17:15.15 | javispedro | have to say that includes me. |
| 17:15.36 | SpeedEvil | Indeed - it'd make me really hesitant to plop down cash for n9 |
| 17:15.45 | SpeedEvil | I question how many users that is though. |
| 17:15.49 | djszapi | javispedro: you do not still understand what two ways exist |
| 17:15.58 | djszapi | if you /want/ "real" root, you want to turn aegis off |
| 17:15.59 | Jaffa | djszapi: I think javispedro is very much aware. |
| 17:16.44 | Venemo | djszapi, so as I understand it, we basically need to learn how to write this "manifest file" or whatever thing to allow our packages to do certain things? |
| 17:17.06 | djszapi | back to the meego and CE thingy. I would really not recommend that way, if aegis causes issues for you guys. As for me, it seems Intel is on the way to ship selinux which is *MUCH* worse than aegis |
| 17:17.11 | djszapi | MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE |
| 17:17.45 | djszapi | Venemo: nope |
| 17:18.01 | djszapi | aegis manifest is file based, not package-wise. Even more grnaularity |
| 17:18.18 | Venemo | djszapi, sure, but I need to package up that manifest, don't I? |
| 17:18.24 | djszapi | ok put it mildly: with meego it will be way much more awkward and nightmare according to the principles. |
| 17:18.38 | Venemo | I'm currently talking about Harmattan |
| 17:18.59 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, could you please elaborate on why the CA-179 is crap? |
| 17:19.04 | djszapi | I am just explaining why meego ce does not make sense for me. If they will really ship selinux, I am out of meego completely. |
| 17:19.27 | djszapi | Venemo: manifest is a simple xml format |
| 17:19.59 | Venemo | djszapi, could you please point me to a doc about it? |
| 17:20.07 | Venemo | djszapi, also, what do you have against SELinux? |
| 17:20.13 | javispedro | manifest only works if you want to request one of the following credentials: http://pastebin.com/KPX88Sgh |
| 17:20.17 | javispedro | otherwise, you're SOL. |
| 17:20.27 | djszapi | Venemo: as I said more times, nope. As said I have never read public documentation, I do not know what they published. It is not my call |
| 17:20.57 | djszapi | javispedro: not really, no |
| 17:21.37 | javispedro | so, how? |
| 17:21.45 | javispedro | I've been able to request any of the credentials from that list. |
| 17:21.54 | javispedro | that includes net_bind_service so I can at least open ports < 1000 |
| 17:22.03 | javispedro | but not setgid, or setuid, or .. |
| 17:22.10 | djszapi | javispedro: my impression was that you can pretty much provide and request custom credentials as well |
| 17:22.33 | djszapi | however it might be turned on that level, it is just for the platform internally, this is something I am not sure about. Someone should write a test manifest for that |
| 17:22.41 | Jaffa | djszapi: Remember that what Aegis as a framework allows and the Harmattan implementation of Aegis aren't the same |
| 17:22.56 | djszapi | Jaffa: who said it is the same ? |
| 17:23.03 | djszapi | why would anybody say that ? |
| 17:23.11 | Jaffa | javispedro: Which makes sense - if you were given setuid/setgid rights, you could bypass it |
| 17:23.16 | *** join/#harmattan mzanetti (~micha@2001:4dd0:fddf:0:21c:b3ff:fec3:e17a) |
| 17:23.25 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: >>if you /want/ "real" root, you want to turn aegis off<< Please give clear instructions on how to do exactly that |
| 17:23.26 | Jaffa | djszapi: "custom credentials" aren't relevant to the concrete realisation, right? |
| 17:23.30 | djszapi | javispedro: aegis-exec could grant me those, setuid, setgid |
| 17:24.02 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: Have you checked the developer mode and flags ? |
| 17:24.20 | djszapi | Jaffa: they are. |
| 17:24.35 | djszapi | That is the whole idea about... |
| 17:24.42 | djszapi | on the top of the general POSIX capabilities. |
| 17:24.46 | DocScrutinizer | no, I don't want to check anything and guess anything. I need a clear word "do this: x, then y" |
| 17:25.04 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: I cannot help then, sorry (right now) |
| 17:25.17 | javispedro | djszapi: remember that aegis-exec -a CAP::setgid results in a boot loop ;) |
| 17:26.32 | GAN900 | Where is our Aegis expert, anyway? |
| 17:26.43 | javispedro | Have to say that GAN900 has said the smartest thing of the day. |
| 17:27.02 | javispedro | that's what is missing here. |
| 17:27.43 | javispedro | so, we might have been ... not really concentrated during the aegis meegoconf sessions ... potentially because no one thought of the consequences. Bring back the lady and make her talk again. |
| 17:27.56 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 17:28.06 | SpeedEvil | In a way, aegis is irrelevant |
| 17:28.08 | djszapi | javispedro: I cannot reproduce... |
| 17:28.14 | SpeedEvil | It's the eagis policies that's important |
| 17:28.42 | SpeedEvil | Seemigly the CE releases differ. |
| 17:28.53 | GAN900 | javispedro, well, haven't things changed a lot since then? |
| 17:29.32 | javispedro | ;P |
| 17:29.55 | javispedro | SpeedEvil: indeed - but also generic stuff like develoepr vs closed vs open |
| 17:30.14 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: CE devices are missing a Nokia-developer-cert or sth |
| 17:30.42 | djszapi | Windows CE ? :) |
| 17:31.03 | Mek | CE labelled devices |
| 17:31.17 | djszapi | I was just joking ;) |
| 17:31.28 | javispedro | SpeedEvil: by CE you mean DE? |
| 17:31.38 | djszapi | well, in my opinion, the security has nothing to do with this issue. If Nokia managers thought they give out devices without documentation, proper images etc |
| 17:31.41 | DocScrutinizer | no, some obviously nokia internal term referring to "CE" cert of hw, which correlates with the missing cert |
| 17:34.13 | javispedro | the nokia policy is theoretically described in /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf |
| 17:34.29 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: well, yes. It seems like some of the higher-up managers at Nokia are doing the whole meego-N9 thing in a rather half-arsed way |
| 17:34.54 | javispedro | there you can find stuff like what privileges can SRC::com.nokia.maemo request. |
| 17:35.36 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: I cannot help sorry. I will be asking my colleagues on Monday who are still at Nokia and not on vacation. Hope the best... |
| 17:35.38 | djszapi | javispedro: that is not just nokia policies, any credentials. |
| 17:35.42 | djszapi | like a "database". |
| 17:36.39 | javispedro | yes, aiui it is edited everytime dpkg-aegis parses a _aegis manifest |
| 17:36.47 | djszapi | that is a good debug interface whether or your manifest credential landed on the device properly. |
| 17:36.50 | djszapi | also accli though |
| 17:37.09 | djszapi | it is called "dpkg" and the original is "dpkg.real" |
| 17:37.23 | djszapi | or did it change recently ? |
| 17:37.43 | DocScrutinizer | no, still there |
| 17:38.47 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: btw, I know how we turned off the security, I am not sure it works publicly though |
| 17:39.27 | djszapi | echo 0 > /sys/kernel/security/digsig/enforce and echo 0 > /sys/kernel/security/digsig/enabled, but it seems to not work anymore |
| 17:39.31 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: that's probably what frals also told us. Echo 1 >/etc/die-aegis-DIE etc |
| 17:39.36 | Mek | you can't do that in CE labelled devices anyway |
| 17:39.51 | Mek | you can only do that if you already have put your devicein open mode |
| 17:40.02 | Venemo | :what is a "CE labelled device"? |
| 17:40.08 | Mek | and how to do that is completely secret and/or not possible with these CE labelled devices |
| 17:41.13 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: a device with the letters "CE" written somewhere on the case |
| 17:42.22 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: nope, "/etc" is integrity protected |
| 17:42.25 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, I don't recall seeing that on the N950 |
| 17:42.32 | GAN900 | DocScrutinizer, high-up managers screwing things up has been the issue from the start. |
| 17:42.32 | javispedro | djszapi: nope, I was just calling the aegis one "dpkg-aegis" |
| 17:42.49 | Mek | Venemo: it's behind the screen I think |
| 17:42.52 | djszapi | javispedro: yeah, I have just double checked, it is still dpkg and dpkg.real |
| 17:44.17 | Venemo | Mek, and what does it matter? |
| 17:44.49 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: see my explanation above |
| 17:45.02 | Mek | well, the label itself doesn't matter, but the label being there means that for example R&D certificates are not prsent |
| 17:45.02 | djszapi | :D:D |
| 17:45.10 | Venemo | aah |
| 17:45.11 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: [2011-07-16 19:31:41] <DocScrutinizer> no, some obviously nokia internal term referring to "CE" cert of hw, which correlates with the missing cert |
| 17:45.20 | Venemo | ok, thx for explaining |
| 17:45.27 | Mek | so you can't flash R&D image (if you would have access to them), and do a couple of other things |
| 17:45.28 | djszapi | exactly |
| 17:45.44 | djszapi | that is why it does not have newer images where serious certificates are needed, like skype, jokuspot, gtalk etc |
| 17:45.58 | djszapi | Mek: you cannot even do that with production image. |
| 17:46.15 | Mek | well, nightly build production images are available signed with the right key |
| 17:46.18 | djszapi | until they say, okay, this is good for shipping. |
| 17:46.22 | Venemo | so how does a CE label prevent me from flashing an image? |
| 17:46.34 | djszapi | Mek: nope, for N950 you cannot use "simple" production image |
| 17:46.40 | Mek | Venemo: images are signed with a key, if te key doesn't match a cert on the device, you can't flash the image |
| 17:46.44 | djszapi | it must be OEM1 certified etc etc etc etc |
| 17:46.54 | Mek | djszapi: yes, OEM1 certified nightly builds for PR images are made |
| 17:47.06 | javispedro | fun stuff surely :) |
| 17:47.10 | Venemo | mhm.. |
| 17:47.13 | djszapi | there is no available OEM1 nightly build, not even for internals when I last checked |
| 17:47.23 | Mek | djszapi: there has been for a couple of days |
| 17:47.33 | djszapi | Mek: for public ? |
| 17:47.34 | Venemo | so, can we get our hands on it? |
| 17:47.40 | javispedro | removes setgid() calls from portmap and hopes noone decides to crack my n950. |
| 17:47.40 | Mek | djszapi: no, internal; and only of PR images |
| 17:47.46 | DocScrutinizer | hmm, I always thought the purpose of TC/security-framework/aegis was to allow apps like skype to check if device is in open mode and refuse to run if it was. Never thought the purpose was to forbid open mode completely |
| 17:47.46 | djszapi | is checking... |
| 17:48.29 | djszapi | ahh I do not have access, well I will check that out on Monday. |
| 17:48.47 | djszapi | Mek: I checked it after the meetup when the devices were given out, few weeks ago. |
| 17:49.03 | djszapi | week 22 is a bit old without flash, skype, hotspot, gtalk etc |
| 17:49.10 | *** join/#harmattan antman8969 (6c06b0b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.6.176.176) |
| 17:49.13 | Mek | djszapi: yeah, they weren't available then, an interal blog post of earlier this week mentioned they would start making them (and are making them now) |
| 17:49.34 | djszapi | Mek: mmh, they may have seen my screaming post about it on the forum xD |
| 17:49.44 | djszapi | that is a good progres, cool. |
| 17:50.28 | djszapi | Mek: kdelibs compilation is 92% for harmattan :) |
| 17:50.28 | Venemo | soo... |
| 17:50.48 | Venemo | when can we get our hands on a new N950 image? |
| 17:51.09 | javispedro | djszapi: well, many thanks for the conversation. |
| 17:51.09 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: this question is utterly useless |
| 17:51.23 | Venemo | :P |
| 17:51.30 | DocScrutinizer | Venemo: Nokia NEVER promises any release dates |
| 17:51.36 | djszapi | no problem, I do really understand it can be an issue. Not trivial framework, but it cannot be by purpose. |
| 17:51.59 | djszapi | I have never seen any trivial security framework. However turning off should be trivial and well documented, yeah. I will ask around on Monday. |
| 17:52.23 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: MUCH appreciates. Many thanks! |
| 17:55.08 | javispedro | nfs-mounts his home on 950 |
| 17:55.13 | javispedro | aaaaah, home sweet home. |
| 17:55.18 | javispedro | is happy. |
| 17:55.18 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
| 17:59.19 | Venemo | DocScrutinizer, I don't need/want it to be an official release |
| 17:59.57 | DocScrutinizer | there's no inofficial releases |
| 18:00.03 | djszapi | Venemo: I was complaining about it as well on the forum after the meetup, you can join crying there :p |
| 18:00.30 | DocScrutinizer | good advice :-) |
| 18:01.36 | javispedro | ok, for some reason I just tried to swipe a terminal window. On my desktop. |
| 18:01.40 | javispedro | With the mouse. |
| 18:02.10 | DocScrutinizer | hehe |
| 18:02.28 | javispedro | like Fremantle's tap outside dialog, swipe also grows on you seemingly... |
| 18:02.30 | djszapi | javispedro: how about zooming with two mouse like a pincharea ? :) |
| 18:03.03 | javispedro | I could use two mouses... :P |
| 18:03.06 | javispedro | ;P |
| 18:04.01 | Venemo | djszapi, ok, I will, gimme a link |
| 18:05.56 | javispedro | out -- cya! |
| 18:06.55 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: I tried to zoom pinch on N900 browse just 2 days ago :-) |
| 18:07.24 | djszapi | Venemo: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=25277&posted=1#post25277 |
| 18:08.10 | Venemo | djszapi, already pressed the thanks button :P |
| 18:17.40 | djszapi | Venemo: :) What type of application do you develop, if I can ask ? |
| 18:20.14 | Venemo | djszapi, various; whatever comes to my mind |
| 18:20.32 | Venemo | djszapi, right now I'm making a memory game to learn QML with :) |
| 18:21.42 | antman8969 | anyone know any designers interested in drawing me up an anna -style icon? ;) |
| 18:21.54 | Venemo | djszapi, wanna try? |
| 18:21.58 | Jaffa | antman8969: javispedro's icon generator to the resuce |
| 18:22.13 | antman8969 | haha, do you have a link? |
| 18:22.40 | Jaffa | antman8969: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3714 |
| 18:23.05 | antman8969 | well... that makes my life a lot easier |
| 18:23.14 | djszapi | Venemo: sure when I got kdelibs working :) Actually we have been doing a game development framework, but Nokia also started providing something. Not sure you need to write it from scratch. |
| 18:23.30 | antman8969 | thanks Jaffa |
| 18:23.42 | Venemo | antman8969, also see http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3717 |
| 18:24.09 | Venemo | djszapi, it is a very simple app which I ported from QGV |
| 18:25.09 | antman8969 | sweet |
| 18:25.45 | GAN900 | Still in the UK. |
| 18:25.49 | GAN900 | Lame stuff |
| 18:26.09 | antman8969 | are you from the US? |
| 18:28.58 | GAN900 | Yes. |
| 18:30.08 | antman8969 | me too... n950 has been in the UK for 3 days now |
| 18:30.27 | antman8969 | I'm thinking there is a row boat that leaves the UK once a week, and thats what dhl is waiting on |
| 18:30.38 | Jaffa | DHL aren't always 100% accurate about when stuff leaves, but I guess this is the US freight restrictions |
| 18:34.42 | GAN900 | Never had issues before. |
| 18:35.02 | GAN900 | Andrew's is stuck, too, so I'm thinking DHL incompetence. |
| 18:35.14 | GAN900 | US really doesn't have a lot of restriction on imports. |
| 18:37.06 | *** join/#harmattan javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro) |
| 18:37.52 | javispedro | you are not going to believe what just happened |
| 18:38.12 | javispedro | so I get my n950 with portmap, which was working perfectly |
| 18:38.20 | javispedro | exit home |
| 18:38.31 | javispedro | and after 4 minutes or so |
| 18:38.41 | javispedro | I look at the screen and bang |
| 18:38.49 | javispedro | Aegis security problem |
| 18:39.02 | javispedro | with /sbin/portmap |
| 18:39.20 | javispedro | this time no way to get out of it |
| 18:39.45 | javispedro | so I had to go back home and swap sim to n900 |
| 18:39.54 | javispedro | sighs |
| 18:40.01 | javispedro | sighs loudly. |
| 18:41.49 | javispedro | writes off harmy, needs a reflash |
| 18:41.59 | javispedro | cya again |
| 18:46.01 | antman8969 | hey javispedro, I'm tryingto use your icon maker but getting some trouble...have a sec? |
| 18:46.58 | *** join/#harmattan rlinfati (~rlinfati@151.81.150.188) |
| 18:47.09 | rlinfati | 2 => ProductionServer is https://nokia.account.com/rest/1.0/ // hostname wrong (WTF) |
| 18:47.09 | rlinfati | :( |
| 18:47.24 | rlinfati | nokia.account.com vs account.nokia.com |
| 18:49.30 | GAN900 | Jaffa and his murder of N950s. |
| 18:53.30 | *** join/#harmattan lcukn900 (~lcuk@82.132.248.107) |
| 18:58.21 | DocScrutinizer | aegis |
| 18:59.02 | djszapi | lcukn900: got harmattan working on N900 ? :) |
| 19:02.02 | *** join/#harmattan harbaum (~quassel@krlh-5f736065.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 19:04.02 | lcukn900 | djszapi, no but an app grid 6*4 in liqbase looks awesome :p |
| 19:04.11 | lcukn900 | as does swipe swiping :p |
| 19:04.57 | harbaum | lcukn900: do you consider rewriting your stuff in qml? |
| 19:05.56 | lcukn900 | harbaum i do, and i try different things often |
| 19:06.44 | lcukn900 | latest calendar prototype is qwidget based and so far seen working on c5-03 n8 and most impressively the qt simulator lol |
| 19:07.05 | lcukn900 | err a qwidget based calendar |
| 19:07.54 | lcukn900 | qml oes not offer scaleable vectors fast enough yet, i try advancing the rendering speed often with folks |
| 19:08.13 | lcukn900 | the art of line drawing is gone if everything is a rectangle |
| 19:08.50 | harbaum | how does the navi then work? It seems to be a qml app |
| 19:09.07 | harbaum | is the nav view itself a c++ widget? |
| 19:09.20 | lcukn900 | that is 1 rectangle with a view i believe |
| 19:09.21 | DocScrutinizer | considers boxing and suspending N950 til the day much more knowledgeable devels like javispedro managed to at very least get successfully accomplished usual everyday activities like setting up portmap or recompiling and flashing/using stock kernel |
| 19:09.29 | lcukn900 | liqbase needs thousands of them |
| 19:10.16 | harbaum | liqbase just need a 2d canvas widget + everything qml already has |
| 19:10.28 | lcukn900 | harbaum complex paint processors and caching would be required and extremely wastefu to render to bitmap first |
| 19:10.36 | DocScrutinizer | really I'm not interested to "develop" the 97th wallpaper changer, and it seems harmattan is not yet ready for doing serious development |
| 19:10.41 | lcukn900 | many 2d canvas widgets |
| 19:10.49 | lcukn900 | one sketch per rectangle |
| 19:11.09 | lcukn900 | the graffiti wall has currently almost 10000 sketches |
| 19:11.24 | lcukn900 | live rendered as you pan |
| 19:11.51 | harbaum | that's still one 2d canvas with 10000 instances |
| 19:12.21 | lcukn900 | and can you not see a memory problem yet? |
| 19:12.59 | lcukn900 | one heavy set canvas with all its fancypants configuration options is much more memory than a normal qml rectangle |
| 19:14.26 | rZr | Venemo: i build your game and it works |
| 19:14.43 | Venemo | rZr, thanks |
| 19:14.46 | rZr | i made a few changes , wanna merge ? |
| 19:15.48 | rZr | +Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), libqt4-dev |
| 19:15.59 | rZr | +Homepage: http://sources.venemo.net/memory-game.zip |
| 19:16.06 | Venemo | rZr, umm, what are the changes? |
| 19:16.23 | rZr | + # Add here commands to clean up after the build process. |
| 19:16.23 | rZr | + -$(MAKE) clean |
| 19:16.54 | Venemo | rZr, you altered the packaging? |
| 19:16.59 | rZr | a bit yet |
| 19:17.01 | rZr | yes |
| 19:17.07 | Venemo | only? |
| 19:17.10 | rZr | yes |
| 19:17.15 | Venemo | ah. |
| 19:17.16 | rZr | i can push my changes |
| 19:17.30 | Venemo | I've deleted the debian folder from the game becasue Qt Creator can't deploy when it's present |
| 19:18.20 | Venemo | the original ones do have a lot of stuff |
| 19:19.14 | rm_you | GeneralAntilles: 8Departed Facility in EAST MIDLANDS - UK EAST MIDLANDS - UK03:53 |
| 19:19.27 | Venemo | rZr, https://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/memory-game/trees/master/debian |
| 19:19.38 | Venemo | rZr, the harmattan branch has not yet been pushed to gitorious |
| 19:19.49 | rZr | k thx |
| 19:20.06 | *** join/#harmattan harbaum_ (~quassel@krlh-5f72f54f.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 19:21.16 | rZr | i made a puzzle qml game too |
| 19:21.22 | rZr | i'll may commit it too |
| 19:21.29 | Venemo | rZr, jigsaw puzzle? |
| 19:22.00 | rZr | yes |
| 19:22.07 | rZr | i saw you create one too |
| 19:22.28 | rZr | i can test yours if it's ready |
| 19:22.37 | Venemo | yes, but it's not packaged/ported to Harmattan yet |
| 19:22.52 | rZr | i can do that job if needed |
| 19:23.04 | rZr | my repo is growing every day |
| 19:23.10 | rZr | http://rzr.online.fr/q/handset |
| 19:23.19 | Venemo | I understand, but I want to port it to Harmattan first :) |
| 19:25.03 | rZr | sure |
| 19:26.30 | djszapi | rZr: I have also been doing a lot of packages for Harmattan. It would be nice to avoid the duplication. |
| 19:26.40 | *** join/#harmattan harbaum (~quassel@krlh-4d035b98.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 19:27.55 | rZr | djszapi: there is a wiki page for that ICCR, I'll sure share the job |
| 19:28.51 | djszapi | rZr: we might be able to share a repository for that. Actually, I am not entirely sure how this sharing works on c-obs. |
| 19:29.36 | rZr | i think there is already a repo for that but it's empty |
| 19:30.04 | djszapi | rZr: it would make sense to sync up with repositories from trusted volunteers. |
| 19:30.18 | djszapi | or just sync and fix if there is any breakge. |
| 19:30.25 | rZr | we already overide |
| 19:30.26 | djszapi | * breakage |
| 19:34.01 | *** join/#harmattan harbaum_ (~quassel@krlh-4d036bf2.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 19:43.18 | GeneralAntilles | rm_you, exactly what mine says. |
| 19:43.33 | rm_you | GeneralAntilles: same plane? :P |
| 19:44.18 | rm_you | fiferboy's ever land? |
| 19:47.31 | GeneralAntilles | Nope |
| 19:47.37 | GeneralAntilles | Crashed into the Atlantic. |
| 19:48.08 | GeneralAntilles | sighs at the lightbulb idiocy. |
| 19:48.38 | GeneralAntilles | I bet the implementation of the efficiency standards generates more CO2 than the bulbs they're regulating. |
| 19:52.51 | djszapi | rZr: I have kdelibs working. When we can get c-obs back I will be uploading :=) |
| 19:53.55 | rZr | congratz |
| 20:04.19 | rm_you | GeneralAntilles: lol |
| 20:04.38 | rm_you | (to both things, kinda the same amount of funny but sad) |
| 20:05.05 | GeneralAntilles | rm_you, well, you know why the industry backed the new regulations so hard, right? |
| 20:05.22 | rm_you | because insanity / lobbyists, same reasons as always? |
| 20:05.26 | GeneralAntilles | So they could close down their incandescent manufacturing plants in the US and move everything over to the CFL plants in China. |
| 20:05.34 | rm_you | lol |
| 20:05.50 | GeneralAntilles | Which don't have to comply with any efficiency or real environmental standards. |
| 20:06.50 | GeneralAntilles | Anyway, enough of my off topic political whining. |
| 20:06.53 | GeneralAntilles | WHERE IS MY N950?! |
| 20:06.56 | rm_you | lol |
| 20:07.11 | rm_you | i'll laugh if it passes fiferboy's |
| 20:07.19 | ieatlint | but the CFLs give us a new source of mercury which has been sorely missed since the banning of mercury thermometers |
| 20:08.52 | ieatlint | we just need to start a rumour that huffing the vapor inside of them gets you high and we can ruin an entire generation of kids |
| 20:09.08 | GeneralAntilles | I still have some old thermostats sitting in the garage. |
| 20:16.57 | DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: (lightbulbs) CFL? forget it, the energy needed to produce all this hightech crap needed in those crappy energy save lamps defeats any reasonable purpose - esp given the promised lifetime usualy isn't even reached by a tenth |
| 20:17.27 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@84-231-105-241.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 20:18.12 | GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, yes, I agree. |
| 20:18.27 | GeneralAntilles | Governments trying to pick technology (or encourage a direction) does way more harm than good. |
| 20:18.46 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
| 20:20.39 | DocScrutinizer | btw now I have those shitty CFL lamps and ponder buying an electrical heater :-P |
| 20:21.43 | DocScrutinizer | (means the heat generated by incandescent is not always to be considered 'lost' - actually I actively plan with this heat) |
| 20:22.09 | ieatlint | i just run several computers |
| 20:22.10 | ieatlint | works well |
| 20:22.35 | DocScrutinizer | I pondered building a shower heating from 150 dimmed incandescent lamps - moot project |
| 20:23.26 | GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, same with my desktop during winter. |
| 20:23.45 | DocScrutinizer | the result is I have to heat the bathroom all the time now, as the conventional heating isn't fast enough for a spontaneous shower |
| 20:25.00 | ieatlint | somehow the electrical requirements of 150 incandescent bulbs in the shower seems like a hazard |
| 20:25.42 | GeneralAntilles | lol |
| 20:25.46 | lcuk | worht a try, the results would be enlightening |
| 20:25.58 | DocScrutinizer | just hopes for some clever manufacturer selling 100W incandescent in a black shirt now, labeled as heater unit, and you just rip off the black shirt |
| 20:26.08 | GeneralAntilles | I want to hook a towel warmer up to a relay in the shower valve. |
| 20:26.34 | ieatlint | some showers do have a heating lamp in the ceiling that you can turn on |
| 20:26.45 | DocScrutinizer | ieatlint: 150 * 20..30W seems just fine |
| 20:26.47 | SpeedEvil | has 600W of solar cells in the kitchen. |
| 20:27.04 | SpeedEvil | Putting them together is the fun part. :) |
| 20:27.15 | ieatlint | DocScrutinizer: so turning on your bathroom light would be a mere 3-4.5kwh? haha |
| 20:27.21 | ieatlint | it's like running two microwaves |
| 20:27.42 | SpeedEvil | I have a garage light made from 20*22W Energy saving bulbs. |
| 20:27.54 | SpeedEvil | Every time I turn it on, I save around 1.5Kw. |
| 20:28.03 | DocScrutinizer | it's like running 1.5 .. 2 conventional heaters which is just ok to heat up the bathroom in 3 minutes |
| 20:28.42 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@84-231-105-241.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 20:29.15 | djszapi | Could someone tell me where I can find the "python-setuptools" package here: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ ? There are more packages depending on that package in this repository, but I failed ot find it. I hope it is just my sleep deprivation :p |
| 20:33.27 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: I'd not be surprised to find more flaws in that location/repo that just "my" bash .deb that refuses to run and then killed the system when javispedro and I tried to make it run nevertheless ( http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=25529&postcount=94 ) |
| 20:33.48 | DocScrutinizer | s/that j/than j/ |
| 20:35.32 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: anyway -> |
| 20:35.35 | DocScrutinizer | [jr@lagrange nokia]$ find . -name '*python-setuptools*' |
| 20:35.36 | djszapi | I think this python-setuptools has been forgotten ti upload. |
| 20:35.37 | DocScrutinizer | ./harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/distribute/python-setuptools_0.6.15-1maemo3+0m6_all.deb |
| 20:35.46 | lcuk | Jaffa, attitude with compass patch for the win please :$ |
| 20:35.51 | djszapi | thanks :) |
| 20:35.55 | DocScrutinizer | yw |
| 20:37.51 | Jaffa | lcuk: Roger. |
| 20:38.17 | lcuk | Jaffa, your app would make the idea test for new functionality ! |
| 20:38.23 | DocScrutinizer | o/ Jaffa |
| 20:39.53 | GeneralAntilles | How's the community repo situation? |
| 20:40.41 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: what do you mean exactly ? |
| 20:41.14 | GeneralAntilles | Is there a repo? Where is it, if so? And does Harmattan want to accept it? |
| 20:41.53 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/ and also some on -cobs |
| 20:41.55 | Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Apps-testing and Apps repos are being set up, but there are key issues being signed up. People's home repos (equivalent to multiple Extras-devel) are springing up |
| 20:41.57 | djszapi | * c-obs |
| 20:45.50 | djszapi | DocScrutinizer: plese gimme w3m :p |
| 20:46.13 | DocScrutinizer | find '*w3m*' ? |
| 20:46.46 | djszapi | Have you added this repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list file ? |
| 20:46.46 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: sorry? |
| 20:47.15 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: no, copied to my box by wget |
| 20:47.58 | DocScrutinizer | djszapi: you want to know about where '*w3m*'? |
| 20:48.03 | djszapi | wget -r ? |
| 20:48.13 | DocScrutinizer | smt like that, yes |
| 20:48.48 | DocScrutinizer | sth* |
| 20:48.49 | djszapi | it would be nice if they put a search engine there. |
| 20:49.28 | DocScrutinizer | well, now that I have the mass, an occasional update is painless |
| 20:49.34 | djszapi | yeah, right now I need to know ^wm3$ |
| 20:49.38 | DocScrutinizer | wget is smart enough for this |
| 20:49.44 | DocScrutinizer | ok, moment |
| 20:49.59 | DocScrutinizer | wm3 or w3m ? |
| 20:50.16 | djszapi | sorry, my bad :P ^w3m$ |
| 20:50.39 | djszapi | the text based browser |
| 20:50.55 | DocScrutinizer | doesn't exist |
| 20:52.03 | djszapi | ok, I am packaging then.. |
| 20:52.13 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 21:05.43 | *** join/#harmattan achipa (~attila@Maemo/community/council/achipa) |
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| 22:09.25 | Noobmonk3y | ooo harmattan yay! |
| 22:09.56 | lcuk | djszapi, ask in here :) |
| 22:13.18 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: is it possible to build "normal" small tools on device? |
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| 22:29.08 | mzanetti | piggz: have you found a solution for the Keyboard stuff? |
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| 22:46.41 | lcuk | DocScrutinizer, idk, it should be possible to build most things? |
| 22:46.54 | lcuk | perhaps the gnu tools situation is improved |
| 22:47.01 | lcuk | but i haven't looked further |
| 22:47.10 | lcuk | is glancing to his left atm |
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| 23:07.56 | *** join/#harmattan javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro) |
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| 23:26.17 | DocScrutinizer | lcuk: sorry, was busy with updating http://wiki.meego.com/Migrating_from_N900_to_N950 - I just asked as I thought you said you build on device. I got no space on my PC HDD to install the SDK, that's when I wondered if the N950 "comes with" gcc and make and all... |
| 23:26.36 | rm_you | DocScrutinizer: I'm currently struggling with getting the SDK on my machine as well |
| 23:26.48 | rm_you | I'm stuck on windoze on my desktop because i need it for work-from-home |
| 23:27.25 | rm_you | i want to get a VM set up |
| 23:27.37 | rm_you | the VM on the garage is the old one i think :/ |
| 23:28.03 | rm_you | and i only have the vmware player :/ |
| 23:29.42 | GeneralAntilles | rages a bit. |
| 23:30.18 | rm_you | lol GA |
| 23:31.24 | GeneralAntilles | Waiting and waiting |
| 23:31.30 | GeneralAntilles | This is the waiting week for me. |
| 23:31.40 | javispedro | more liek two weeks ;) |
| 23:31.50 | GeneralAntilles | Wish they'd stop pretending like it's making progress so at least I could focus on something else. |
| 23:32.26 | javispedro | iirc DHL USA defines the next day by 5:00pm |
| 23:32.45 | javispedro | so if you haven't got it by 5:00pm Nokia might be entitled to have their money back =) |
| 23:33.29 | GeneralAntilles | Good for Nokia. |
| 23:36.10 | rm_you | yeah i hope they do |
| 23:36.21 | rm_you | i should email them and tell them to get their money back :P |
| 23:36.29 | rm_you | just to prod DHL for being sucky |
| 23:38.07 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.meego.com/Migrating_from_N900_to_N950#Keyboard_shortcuts If *anybody* finds a way to select an entry in Search via kbd shortcut, please don't hesitate to share ;-D |
| 23:38.39 | javispedro | DocScrutinizer: how much time should I wait in the "Erasing, this may take a while." stage during flash? |
| 23:38.56 | DocScrutinizer | 2 beers? |
| 23:39.14 | DocScrutinizer | I dunno, I left after 5 min |
| 23:39.18 | javispedro | I now need to Google a conversion factor between beers and seconds |
| 23:39.26 | DocScrutinizer | heard it takes 20..25min |
| 23:40.30 | DocScrutinizer | iirc the webpage says "takes 40min" and this seems about right |
| 23:41.18 | javispedro | sighs |
| 23:45.55 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: at least it works... even "automatically" |
| 23:49.11 | javispedro | those aegis gods are vengeful. seemed that I could cheat death (aka aegis selfdestruction) by doing that triple reboot thing, but of course, the wrath of aegis ALWAYS eventually falls. |
| 23:50.29 | javispedro | ok, erasing took 15 min |
| 23:51.44 | javispedro | and after that, lashing takes 2 minutes |
| 23:51.45 | javispedro | and done. |
| 23:59.06 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: could you check if your one-click-flasher self-erased? |
| 23:59.26 | javispedro | nope, it's still there |
| 23:59.33 | DocScrutinizer | weird, but I can't locate mine anymore |
| 23:59.44 | javispedro | name starts with Linux_OCF |
| 23:59.59 | DocScrutinizer | locate Linux_OCF AYE |