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| 05:00.32 | Termana | morning |
| 05:00.35 | Stskeeps | morn |
| 05:01.15 | hiemanshu | morning |
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| 05:36.10 | Qantourisc | Ok weird question: why would i NOT want to by a phone with harmattan ? |
| 05:37.36 | Tronic | Qantourisc: Because it is not available (yet or in your country), or because you are afraid there won't be enough apps for it. |
| 05:37.55 | Qantourisc | Ok sorry, then i'm in the wrong channel :) |
| 05:37.56 | Tronic | Because Android or iPhone5 may have flashier UI? |
| 05:38.10 | Qantourisc | UI is no concern of mine :) |
| 05:38.19 | Tronic | Just answering the question :) |
| 05:38.23 | Qantourisc | I was kinda asking for N900 and what os is on there |
| 05:39.35 | Tronic | Well, Harmattan is the next best thing to N900. Not quite as open but still based on Debian and you have pretty much control and the Store is very friendly towards open-source developers too. |
| 05:39.53 | Qantourisc | how is it not as open ? |
| 05:39.59 | Tronic | Aegis security system. |
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| 05:40.05 | Qantourisc | a right ? |
| 05:40.11 | Qantourisc | Tronic: can i kill that ? |
| 05:40.46 | Tronic | On developer devices at least, pretty much, yes. |
| 05:41.00 | Tronic | I suppose you could even install an entirely different OS if you wanted to. |
| 05:41.18 | Qantourisc | Tronic: so it will depend on the final hardware then ? |
| 05:41.31 | Qantourisc | Tronic: what differnt os ? :) |
| 05:42.06 | Tronic | Community Meego or some other Linux-based system, I suppose. |
| 05:42.40 | Qantourisc | ow wait ... this channel is about the bastard child of meego and meamo ? |
| 05:42.44 | Tronic | I'm pretty sure you don't actually want to do that (any more than you would on N900) because the other OSes will suck. |
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| 05:43.10 | Tronic | Harmattan is Maemo 6 and it implements Meego APIs. |
| 05:43.27 | Qantourisc | hopes meego grows up fast ? |
| 05:43.32 | Tronic | Not really a combination of the two, just another version of Maemo. |
| 05:43.43 | Qantourisc | don't suppost i can upgrade n900 to m6 ? |
| 05:43.50 | Tronic | With entirely new UI (based on Qt this time). |
| 05:44.08 | Tronic | You won't be able to upgrade. |
| 05:44.30 | Qantourisc | pfff ... the mobile market still didn't mature imo |
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| 05:46.55 | Tronic | By mature you mean become PC? |
| 05:47.29 | Qantourisc | standard, open, upgradable |
| 05:47.34 | Tronic | Or more precisely, x86/Windows. |
| 05:47.45 | Qantourisc | no more childisch money sceams |
| 05:47.54 | Tronic | Maybe I need to remind you that not even desktop Linux or OS X has that sort of compatibility. |
| 05:48.00 | Qantourisc | Note: last word spelled wrong |
| 05:48.23 | Qantourisc | Tronic: can you give an example ? |
| 05:48.52 | Tronic | So, you think it is because of money that desktop Linux has no cross-version/cross-distro compatibility to speak of, while at the same time Windows 7 can still run software written from Windows 95 just fine? |
| 05:48.58 | Tronic | *for |
| 05:49.59 | Tronic | It is a rare exception to have such compatibility and in fact x86/Windows remains the only platform that has it. |
| 05:50.05 | Qantourisc | Tronic: actaully, they are working on that :) (not that I like the solution entirely LSB) |
| 05:50.26 | Qantourisc | I was not talking about software compatiblity actually |
| 05:50.37 | Tronic | Qantourisc: Yeah, as if standardizing libjpeg and a couple of others really helps. It won't fly, sorry. |
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| 05:51.27 | Qantourisc | Tronic: so my current 2 options are: wait and see what N950 bring |
| 05:51.39 | Qantourisc | or buy N900 before you can nolonger get them ? |
| 05:52.04 | Tronic | Qantourisc: Wait one more month to get a N9 and you'll be happy with it. |
| 05:52.53 | Qantourisc | Tronic: how do you know that ? |
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| 05:52.58 | eman | Qantourisc: Definitely better to wait for the N9 rather than N900. N900 is nice, but bulky and starved of RAM |
| 05:53.05 | wazd | Qantourisc: N950 is not on sale anyway |
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| 05:53.23 | Qantourisc | Tronic: how do you know Aegis wont bite me ? |
| 05:53.26 | Tronic | N900 still (obviously) offers more software, and it has physical QWERTY, but let's face it, the hardware is badly outdated. It doesn't have enough RAM so even if you overclock, it is still too slow. |
| 05:53.45 | Qantourisc | it's still to slow ?!? |
| 05:53.56 | Tronic | Also, it has very crappy Maps (and the open-source alternatives aren't much better) while N9 has proper maps/navigation. |
| 05:54.16 | Qantourisc | 256ram |
| 05:54.20 | Qantourisc | that should be enough ... |
| 05:54.25 | Tronic | The browser of N900 is OK but it doesn't have nearly as good HTML5 support as N9 does. |
| 05:54.45 | Tronic | We are talking about desktop Linux (essentially) running on a cellphone. |
| 05:54.46 | Qantourisc | Tronic: neither will N9 in a few yaers |
| 05:54.52 | Tronic | 256 MB is certainly not enough. |
| 05:55.03 | Tronic | 1 GB is barely enough but several gigabytes would be better. |
| 05:55.18 | Qantourisc | Tronic: .... what server stack do you guys run !?! |
| 05:55.38 | Qantourisc | let me take a look at my desktop: |
| 05:55.43 | Tronic | Do you realize how memory-hog all this software Linux runs is? |
| 05:56.10 | Qantourisc | 4.7GB in use: 1.3GB firefox (many open windows, memory hog, better use another brower) |
| 05:56.19 | Tronic | Just to get your empty desktop you need to have kazillion libraries loaded, plus daemons such as dbus. Message passing based on XML documents... |
| 05:56.21 | Qantourisc | 1GB opera (also a TON of open window, less of a hog) |
| 05:56.35 | Qantourisc | chronim 777M <= not sure why it's this mutch :) |
| 05:56.43 | Qantourisc | 223M thunderbird (lots of mails) |
| 05:57.06 | Qantourisc | but after that ... |
| 05:57.13 | Qantourisc | we had the memory hogs |
| 05:57.18 | Qantourisc | and ram usage drops :) |
| 05:57.35 | Tronic | If you think of starting up a web browser, be prepared to spend a few hundred megabytes just for that. And a few hundred more if you use multiple websites at the same time. Or if you leave some AJAX-using site open for a few hours as it will keep leaking RAM all the time (this is a feature of Javascript). |
| 05:59.08 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi_ (~lpapp@85-156-94-154.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 05:59.11 | Tronic | On top of that you should have some cache RAM because Linux really sucks at I/O. |
| 05:59.23 | Qantourisc | don't we love bloat :/ |
| 05:59.45 | Tronic | If the system disk suffers of high I/O latencies (because you didn't have enough disk cache available), everything will freeze for tens of seconds. |
| 05:59.48 | wazd | Well, right now N950 consumes about 500 Mb, running for 3rd day, music, video, web, meecast, mail and clock opened :) |
| 05:59.52 | Qantourisc | btw anyone considered using a browser adjutesd for mobile ? |
| 06:00.04 | Qantourisc | wazd: !?! |
| 06:00.11 | Qantourisc | wazd: where is all this going to ? |
| 06:00.18 | Tronic | I guess this is because most communication happens via UNIX sockets that reside on the filesystem, so when the disk is blocked, nothing works. |
| 06:00.20 | Qantourisc | and where is the dam optimalization team !?! |
| 06:00.31 | wazd | Qantourisc: memory leaks I guess |
| 06:00.49 | Qantourisc | where is the world going to ? |
| 06:00.57 | wazd | Qantourisc: remember, it has really old firmware, back from june |
| 06:01.47 | Qantourisc | ok :) |
| 06:01.50 | Qantourisc | (but still :p) |
| 06:02.08 | wazd | all closed - 370 Mb |
| 06:02.20 | wazd | which clearly indicates memory leak :) |
| 06:02.22 | Qantourisc | wazd: including er excluding cache ? |
| 06:02.39 | wazd | including I guess |
| 06:02.41 | Qantourisc | wazd: that also means you'll need to reboot your phone once in a while :/ |
| 06:02.54 | Stskeeps | always exclude cache, cache is well-used memory |
| 06:02.54 | Qantourisc | wazd: well open a terminal and run free -m ? |
| 06:03.06 | SpeedEvil | Tronic: Disk and socket operations do not mutially block |
| 06:03.13 | hiemanshu | I have some un-uploaded pics of N950, maybe I should up them |
| 06:03.29 | SpeedEvil | Tronic: The lag is often due to swapping. |
| 06:03.46 | special | has 688mb used with nothing open and 26 hours up |
| 06:03.54 | wazd | total 985, used 806, free 178 |
| 06:03.59 | Qantourisc | I'll wait for the N9, aks here if the aegis doesn't piss me of so bad, and then decide ? |
| 06:04.16 | Stskeeps | wazd: how much of it 'cached'? |
| 06:04.32 | Qantourisc | wazd: second line :) |
| 06:04.43 | Qantourisc | "-/+ buffers/cache:" |
| 06:05.04 | wazd | -/+ buffers: 790, free 194 |
| 06:05.18 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: To open the socket you must first access the filesystem, I guess this is the problem. |
| 06:05.23 | Qantourisc | wazd: so where the HELL did you get the number 370MB ? |
| 06:05.29 | Qantourisc | case that's wrong then :p |
| 06:05.40 | SpeedEvil | The socket s typically resie on /tmp - which is often in ram |
| 06:05.52 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: Not really related to Harmattan, it is just something that I am suffering of on desktop Linux. |
| 06:06.14 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: To access /tmp, you need to access / first. |
| 06:06.26 | SpeedEvil | No you don't |
| 06:06.30 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: Typically it will be cached but especially near OOM it might not be. |
| 06:06.32 | wazd | Qantourisc: Energy Profiler, don't blame me :D |
| 06:06.55 | SpeedEvil | Accessing a mounted filesystem does not require you to touch the filesystem on which that filesystem is mounted. |
| 06:07.10 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: You need to check the permissions of all the parents, right? |
| 06:07.20 | SpeedEvil | I've fairly often actually unplugged / - and had a chroot carry on happily running. |
| 06:07.20 | xarcass | guys, don't forget that there are many apps that are in 'preloaded' state on N950 - they eat a lot of memory |
| 06:07.23 | SpeedEvil | Tronic: No |
| 06:08.04 | wazd | xarcass: yeah, like feed updates, mail and stuff |
| 06:08.19 | SpeedEvil | Tronic: Once a filesystem is mounted, changing the permissions of the mount point do not change the permissions of the underlying directory |
| 06:08.34 | xarcass | ps xaw|grep prestart |
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| 06:09.54 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: You still need permissions to parents of the mount point. |
| 06:10.07 | Tronic | SpeedEvil: So, in order to access /tmp, you need to verify that you can access /. |
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| 06:10.55 | SpeedEvil | The system always has the / node in memory |
| 06:11.01 | SpeedEvil | inode permissions |
| 06:11.23 | Tronic | Even in OOM situation? |
| 06:11.26 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 06:11.29 | Tronic | Why? |
| 06:11.41 | SpeedEvil | Because it has to, in order to be able to use the filesystem |
| 06:12.03 | Tronic | I don't really see why it couldn't read it from the disk when needed, the same way any other node is read. |
| 06:12.30 | SpeedEvil | Because IIRC it's stored in the same area that tells it where on what device it should be looking. |
| 06:12.44 | Tronic | Anyway, even if that is the case, wouldn't we still have the problem with /var/tmp and other places that are not directly at fs root? |
| 06:12.58 | Qantourisc | Say another question: what is the point to run a standard linux stack, if aegis is going to lock it down anyway ? |
| 06:13.12 | Qantourisc | In that case I might aswel get me an iphone or android. |
| 06:13.19 | Qantourisc | They are just as worthless then |
| 06:13.30 | Qantourisc | Or wait no, worth more, since they have more apps ! |
| 06:13.43 | SpeedEvil | From memory, the filesystem path of open filesystems is cached too. |
| 06:13.54 | SpeedEvil | It's been a long time since I looked at this though. |
| 06:14.04 | SpeedEvil | Qantourisc: Wait and see. |
| 06:14.41 | eman | I don't think open inodes can be dropped. And pwd of processes would be open, so the dcache leading to root would need to be in memory |
| 06:14.44 | SpeedEvil | Aegis could vary from making the device almost unusable for large fractions of the users, to being a minor irritation, to being a positive benefit, depending on how it's configured. |
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| 06:15.47 | mece | khertan__, ping |
| 06:22.11 | Qantourisc | SpeedEvil: ok ... few weeks right ? so howlong exactly before we know ? |
| 06:22.30 | Qantourisc | PS, wasn't this puppy more expensive then an iphone ? |
| 06:23.05 | SpeedEvil | Qantourisc: reportedly within a month |
| 06:23.14 | SpeedEvil | I vaguely recall someone mentioning Sep 9 |
| 06:23.33 | Qantourisc | will m5 work on m6 ? :) |
| 06:23.48 | Qantourisc | (software |
| 06:23.57 | SpeedEvil | no |
| 06:24.03 | Qantourisc | "ow" ... |
| 06:24.26 | Qantourisc | so euu ... it won't do what I need/want it to do on release date then |
| 06:24.46 | Tronic | eman: Ok, sounds sensible. Looks like I need to find another hypothesis for the unresponsiveness. |
| 06:25.31 | Tronic | That thing is a bitch to debug because, well, the system is completely unresponsive when you should be probing it. |
| 06:26.28 | eman | Qantourisc: The N9 is already available for pre-order at one of Australia's largest electronics retailers so that should be an indicator |
| 06:26.49 | eman | Tronic: Linux desktop or N900? |
| 06:27.17 | Tronic | eman: Desktop. |
| 06:27.59 | Qantourisc | still doesn't like the smartphone desktop ... i'm almost tempted to use a headset and a latop in a backpack !!! |
| 06:28.09 | Qantourisc | euuu smathphone-market |
| 06:30.19 | Qantourisc | or netbook :p |
| 06:30.28 | Qantourisc | time for me to go |
| 06:32.17 | eman | Any QML experts here? |
| 06:33.38 | spenap | eman, real experts are in #qt-qml |
| 06:33.51 | hiemanshu | eman: just ask if someone knows they'll answer |
| 06:35.04 | eman | spenap, hiemanshu: Okay, thanks |
| 06:35.29 | eman | I'm just experiencing annoying problems with Rectangle elements not anchoring properly with other elements |
| 06:35.54 | eman | Anyway, I'll just continue mucking around for a little while. hrmmm. |
| 06:36.18 | hiemanshu | eman: I have used Rectangles and anchor based layouts, what about them? |
| 06:37.17 | eman | Just coding up an app on N950. Have two rectangles for different sections of a form. The second rectangle overlaps the first with the anchors being ignored |
| 06:37.34 | *** part/#harmattan smoku (~spectrum@xkh0g2.infr.xiaoka.com) |
| 06:37.58 | radiofree | is the height of rectangle 1 + rectangle 2 > height of the screen? |
| 06:38.20 | eman | Rectangle { id: pickup } |
| 06:38.20 | eman | Rectangle { id:destination |
| 06:38.20 | eman | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:38.20 | eman | } |
| 06:38.23 | eman | Nope |
| 06:38.44 | eman | I've set the background on both, and without a anchors.fill, the background won't show. |
| 06:38.54 | eman | Only about 1/3 of the screen should be taken up |
| 06:39.14 | mece | is there a way to browse private cobs repos on the web? |
| 06:39.20 | radiofree | try setting some width and height properties for the rectangles |
| 06:39.30 | eman | radiofree: okay.. |
| 06:42.12 | eman | hmmm, adding a height and width made for an interesting screen. Seems QML doesn't bound contained elements to the size of the rectangle and they stick out. Sigh. |
| 06:42.37 | radiofree | but I assume designation maintained it's anchor property? |
| 06:42.43 | mece | eman, could you post source and I'll help you with that. |
| 06:42.52 | mece | just the rectangles |
| 06:43.02 | mece | erm the file with the rectangles |
| 06:43.07 | mece | paste, not post |
| 06:43.08 | xarcass | eman: if i understood properly, you need Item::clip property |
| 06:43.10 | eman | Ahh, it's because clip is false for QML elements |
| 06:43.19 | eman | xarcass: yep, just found it. thanks. |
| 06:43.21 | mece | just put clip: true |
| 06:43.45 | eman | I'm more interested in having the rectangle auto size to contain it's children |
| 06:44.16 | mece | width: childRect.width; height: childRect.height |
| 06:44.18 | radiofree | do something in Component.onComplete of the child then |
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| 06:44.42 | radiofree | onCompleted even |
| 06:44.52 | mece | ^^ sets size based on content size |
| 06:45.06 | eman | radiofree: okay, thanks. Will give it a go |
| 06:45.17 | eman | and thanks mece too |
| 06:45.30 | mece | np |
| 06:53.01 | wazd | can anyone point me to the manual bout semi-transparent toolbars in harmattan? (like gallery has for example)? |
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| 06:55.40 | xarcass | wazd: i believe that this is fairly standard toolbar (inverted though) with opacity set to something between 0 and 1 |
| 06:56.47 | spenap | wazd, I'd say you could grep the css files to get the exact opacity values |
| 06:56.54 | wazd | xarcass: ah, makes sense. I just thought it has some kind of standartized property |
| 07:00.03 | xarcass | wazd: there are also geometry issues, which i don't know how to solve: page's 'client area' ends at the top edge of toolbar, so it's unclear to me how to 'extend' this area that toolbar would be atop of it |
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| 07:00.59 | wazd | xarcass: hmm |
| 07:01.31 | wazd | xarcass: I suppose gallery is closed sourced |
| 07:02.13 | ajalkane | wazd: no, it's in gitorious |
| 07:02.14 | xarcass | wazd: unfortunately. i'd like to see how they made some things there also.. |
| 07:02.39 | ajalkane | oj, the app not examples :P |
| 07:02.48 | wazd | ajalkane: yeah |
| 07:02.55 | xarcass | ajalkane: oops, i've been completely mistaken then |
| 07:03.30 | wazd | xarcass: maybe they just have some "look alike" instad of proper toolbar |
| 07:03.33 | ajalkane | Too bad the apps are mostly closed. Lots of things would be useful to check |
| 07:04.33 | hiemanshu | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Discussion/faq.php?cd= |
| 07:04.35 | hiemanshu | hahaha |
| 07:04.45 | RST38h | moo all |
| 07:04.50 | RST38h | yo wazd |
| 07:05.01 | wazd | RST38h: heya |
| 07:05.19 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: ([2011-08-22 08:14:04] <SpeedEvil> Qantourisc: Wait and see. <SpeedEvil> Aegis could vary from making the device almost unusable for large fractions of the users, to being a minor irritation, to being a positive benefit, depending on how it's configured.) where from is this? Mere wishful thinking or is there actual indication or rumour from 'inside' about *anything* with aegis is going to change? |
| 07:08.07 | RST38h | wazd: how is suffering today? |
| 07:08.50 | wazd | RST38h: testing MeeCast :) |
| 07:09.26 | RST38h | ah |
| 07:11.37 | wazd | RST38h: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37920982/UI_Mockups/Meecast_Handset/debug-1.png |
| 07:12.02 | wazd | RST38h: wrong iconset but still :) |
| 07:12.48 | RST38h | coooooooool |
| 07:14.03 | RST38h | Why Uruguay though? Haven't we agreed to always show weather in Yakutia at those screenshots? =) |
| 07:15.03 | wazd | RST38h: the only place I've found with negative temperatures right now :D |
| 07:15.10 | RST38h | ahhahaha |
| 07:15.40 | wazd | I guess it's a polar station |
| 07:16.25 | wazd | Cairo has the most boring forecast ever |
| 07:16.26 | RST38h | most likely |
| 07:16.41 | RST38h | well, it is in a desert somewhere, isn'tit? |
| 07:16.57 | RST38h | but you can always liven things up by showing webcams =) |
| 07:18.39 | wazd | RST38h: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37920982/UI_Mockups/Meecast_Handset/debug-2.png |
| 07:19.27 | RST38h | wazd: you know what would be a nice easter egg? |
| 07:20.11 | RST38h | wazd: when you get a repetitive weather like that, change every next icon slightly, in this case, make sun grow fangs forexample =) |
| 07:20.17 | wazd | RST38h: eventual BSODs? :P |
| 07:20.31 | RST38h | nah, BSODs are boring and not that difficult with QML |
| 07:20.52 | RST38h | BTW, OMWeather *still* screws up the media player widget on Fremantle. |
| 07:20.54 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: It's in principle - I have no indications it will change. But I would not be preordering a n9 till I got clarification. |
| 07:21.41 | wazd | RST38h: and I hope gismeteo won't sue me for stealing their logo from an iPhone app |
| 07:21.56 | wazd | RST38h: cause their website logo is an absolute crap |
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| 07:22.41 | DocScrutinizer | My info is summarized like this: "Nokia freed all the manpower for HARM(-aegis) already. So there's zero options for them to do anything about it for N9" |
| 07:23.09 | RST38h | wazd: I doubt they will, all the .RU lawyers are busy raiding whatever businesses remain =) |
| 07:23.25 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: Sounds plausible. |
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| 07:29.51 | RST38h | wazd: is it at all possible to have a set of icon "augmentations" (like those fangs, or eyes) and overlay them on some icons? |
| 07:30.08 | RST38h | of course, have the same augmentations for multiple different icons to save work |
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| 07:36.56 | wazd | RST38h: it's surely possible but I'm not sure bout the looks with different sets |
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| 07:37.50 | RST38h | wazd: depends on how these augmentations are made. if you only limit them to monochrome, with some alpha channel, they should look fine |
| 07:37.51 | Arkenoi | wazd, no news from nokla? |
| 07:37.56 | RST38h | wazd: like shadoes or watermarks |
| 07:38.00 | RST38h | shadows |
| 07:39.40 | DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: so my take on it is: if we don't manage to make a "aegiskiller&powerkernel" package as common practice to install on N9 as enabling extras-devel is on fremantle, you can probably forget about it |
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| 07:41.45 | wazd | Arkenoi: nope, pure silence |
| 07:42.08 | wazd | RST38h: maybe, but that's not gonna be added soon :P |
| 07:42.23 | wazd | RST38h: have bloody load of things to fix first :) |
| 07:42.34 | RST38h | yeah |
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| 07:47.05 | djszapi | rcg: did you find the issue after all about the issue with rzr repo ? |
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| 07:49.46 | rcg | djszapi: yes.. rzr uploaded desktop-file-utils-0.15-2 to his repo which apparently shadowed the version from http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/d/desktop-file-utils/ |
| 07:50.25 | rcg | djszapi: after he removed that package my package and all other packages suffering from this issue started building |
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| 07:52.10 | djszapi | rcg: that is why I do not like packrat, it fails to search on the public Nokia repository, and things like this happen. |
| 07:52.53 | djszapi | right now, packrat duplicates what the obs search field does. |
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| 07:55.02 | rcg | djszapi: ic.. i'm not that much familiar with the details of how obs works yet |
| 07:55.18 | RST38h | djszapi: easy tofix |
| 07:55.32 | RST38h | djszapi: simply ask rm_you to add Nokia's repository to the list |
| 07:55.43 | djszapi | RST38h: we asked him, and he told us it is not possible. |
| 07:55.47 | djszapi | long ago. |
| 07:55.54 | RST38h | mhmmm |
| 07:56.13 | RST38h | does not see how it is not possible |
| 07:56.34 | djszapi | me neither. |
| 07:56.53 | djszapi | probably a very novice parser behind it. |
| 07:57.49 | RST38h | I have written the parser in PackRat |
| 07:58.01 | RST38h | No problem parsing Nokia's repo. |
| 07:58.31 | RST38h | Unless rm_you broke it really badly, but I doubt it, he is a pretty reasonable guy :) |
| 07:58.31 | djszapi | fix the bug then |
| 08:00.01 | djszapi | and wiki parsing is very dangerous anyways. I think it is not a good approach. |
| 08:00.55 | djszapi | I would drop the whole parser, and I would just do a "whitelist", that is. |
| 08:03.41 | RST38h | what wiki? |
| 08:03.50 | RST38h | what are you talking about? |
| 08:04.07 | RST38h | repository is not a wiki |
| 08:04.50 | djszapi | are you sure you wrote the parser ? I am asking it because it heavily parsed the wikipage for the repositories... |
| 08:06.37 | djszapi | and no, there is no need for parser like that, a whitelist is more than enough since people use the "common" repositories anyways. I find it dangerous, anybody can add anything, even a broken package that I can download, or delete a repository and so forth. It is risky, I would just drop the parser as it is. |
| 08:07.14 | RST38h | ah, rm_you is parsing the wiki pageto get a list of repos at cobs |
| 08:07.24 | RST38h | but this does not mean you cannot manually add another repo |
| 08:07.42 | djszapi | well, if he "is" parsing, it is not your parser :D |
| 08:07.50 | djszapi | it is not that you wrote "alone" :D :D |
| 08:07.56 | RST38h | sighs |
| 08:08.14 | RST38h | I mostly care about parsing repo contents and presenting them to the user |
| 08:08.26 | RST38h | getting the list of repos has been almost an afterthought |
| 08:08.41 | RST38h | too easy to do |
| 08:08.50 | robbiethe1st | Hey guys, quick question - On the RM680/N950, is there any configuration for the touch screen sensitivity etc? |
| 08:09.43 | djszapi | RST38h: does not matter too much, until the work flow is getting much cleaner. This wikipage parsing is more risky than ever. |
| 08:10.23 | djszapi | Also, I am /now/ understading why you had no idea about this public Nokia repository bug. |
| 08:11.00 | RST38h | Well, at least for me, the PackRat does the job |
| 08:11.47 | djszapi | no, it does not, it does not look for the public Nokia repository which is the most important core. Also I can break it anytime. |
| 08:12.13 | RST38h | The keywords were "for me" |
| 08:12.40 | djszapi | right, you are fine with broken repositories and ignoring the core Nokia one. No more comments then. |
| 08:14.32 | djszapi | It is not acceptable for some people (including myself). |
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| 08:29.09 | lcuk | morning \o |
| 08:29.38 | hiemanshu | hey lcuk |
| 08:30.31 | djszapi | hiemanshu: irc-chatter does not work with newer software, operation permitted when I try to launch it . |
| 08:31.14 | hiemanshu | djszapi: we dont have newer software to test :( |
| 08:31.21 | djszapi | hiemanshu: also, I think the dependency management is broken since my import module did not work |
| 08:31.37 | hiemanshu | djszapi: there should be meego.extras on it |
| 08:31.48 | hiemanshu | djszapi: does it have the extras widget lib? |
| 08:31.49 | djszapi | well, it cannot import it by me. |
| 08:32.16 | hiemanshu | djszapi: the QMLComponentExtraWidgetGallery |
| 08:32.19 | hiemanshu | or something like that |
| 08:32.30 | djszapi | sorry ? |
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| 08:32.50 | hiemanshu | djszapi: in the apps list, there are widget galleries correct |
| 08:33.28 | djszapi | not sure what you mean yet. |
| 08:33.46 | hiemanshu | djszapi: on the phone, newer software, do you have widget galleries? |
| 08:34.05 | djszapi | I do not know. |
| 08:34.48 | hiemanshu | well, cannot really test what the issue with out anything |
| 08:35.18 | djszapi | well, you should just write your dependencies into the control file. |
| 08:35.27 | djszapi | independently from any image, gadget. |
| 08:35.55 | hiemanshu | well, its import it because extras has the InfoBanner which we need |
| 08:36.08 | hiemanshu | and its installed by default |
| 08:36.12 | hiemanshu | its a part of qt-components |
| 08:36.25 | djszapi | so qt-components is your dependency.. |
| 08:37.33 | hiemanshu | and its installed by default |
| 08:37.43 | hiemanshu | djszapi: do you have a terminal on that thing |
| 08:37.44 | hiemanshu | ? |
| 08:38.25 | djszapi | hiemanshu: you should really not make a software with guess-works, seriously. |
| 08:38.36 | djszapi | even if Harmattan has qt, we write that into the dependencies... |
| 08:38.41 | hiemanshu | meh |
| 08:40.17 | hiemanshu | if you have a problem with something, patches are welcome |
| 08:40.33 | djszapi | I am working on a telepathy based IRC client :) |
| 08:40.37 | djszapi | I do not have time for this, sorry. |
| 08:41.32 | hiemanshu | djszapi: we have a depends list with everything it uses |
| 08:41.39 | robbiethe1st | Y'know, it seems like with a C(++) app, there ought to be a tool that automatically gets a list of all includes you've used, and finds them in the packages for the target system. |
| 08:41.40 | hiemanshu | please see before you speak about anything |
| 08:41.59 | djszapi | hiemanshu: I have qt-components, and widget galary installed. I am afraid, your guess was wrong then, it is something else. |
| 08:42.38 | hiemanshu | djszapi: exactly, they are all installed |
| 08:42.41 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: that would really be funky :) |
| 08:42.58 | djszapi | Just consider that if you write a cross-platform application, how would you install Mac, Win and other things to check it out ? |
| 08:43.18 | robbiethe1st | djszapi: Easy: VMs |
| 08:43.22 | djszapi | hiemanshu: yep, so I do not understand why you asked this. At any rate, the problem is something else. |
| 08:43.49 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: that is not really the point. I am making Windows packages by coding on Linux (also Mac, deb, rpm and so forth). Basically, I am doing it on one system. |
| 08:44.20 | robbiethe1st | Still, it'd be handy to have an auto-dependancy-finder, for at least one platform |
| 08:45.00 | hiemanshu | djszapi: you dont even understand me lol |
| 08:45.31 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: the problem is that you have gazillion package management systems. It would be a bit more work than you think. |
| 08:45.44 | hiemanshu | djszapi: can you cd to /usr/lib/qt4/imports/com/meego/extras? |
| 08:45.53 | djszapi | sometimes, different distributions even call things differently. |
| 08:46.19 | djszapi | 08:45 < hiemanshu> djszapi: you dont even understand me lol -> that is true, I do not understand you. |
| 08:46.36 | robbiethe1st | Yes, there'd have to be a version kept up for each package manager. Which, if you could get the distros to maintain it, would be no harder than keeping up all packages as dependancies change |
| 08:46.51 | hiemanshu | djszapi: can you cd to /usr/lib/qt4/imports/com/meego/extras? |
| 08:46.59 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: the ifdef, elif would be another factor which makes a bit more difficult. |
| 08:47.25 | hiemanshu | that or paste the output of dpkg -L qt-components |
| 08:47.26 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: also, if you have an outdated package name, that completely messes up everything |
| 08:47.27 | hiemanshu | djszapi: ^ |
| 08:48.00 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: if you would like to force the dependency for an upper version for some reason. |
| 08:48.16 | djszapi | hiemanshu: no sorry, it is under NDA. |
| 08:48.17 | robbiethe1st | Isn't that the same problem you have when manually doing the same thing? |
| 08:48.36 | hiemanshu | djszapi: then just see if /usr/lib/qt4/imports/com/meego/extras exist |
| 08:48.44 | hiemanshu | if it doesn't, that is your problem |
| 08:48.47 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: well, I had cmake 2.8.0 installed meanwhile I wanted to require 2.8.4 for some reason |
| 08:49.33 | djszapi | you can also have different dependency for different distributions, and it is getting very hard, also I would not like to do it myself for all the distributions really :) |
| 08:50.00 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: speaking of which, it is not a bad practice to know what packages you are using for your software in general ;-) |
| 08:50.32 | djszapi | hiemanshu: my problem if it does not exist and your package does not run because of this ? :) It is your software ;) |
| 08:50.55 | hiemanshu | djszapi: its a part of the qt-components package, which is a dependency |
| 08:51.01 | djszapi | no, it is not |
| 08:51.02 | hiemanshu | and also installed by default |
| 08:51.10 | djszapi | no, it is not |
| 08:51.14 | robbiethe1st | I'm more thinking in terms of, for example, auto-porting it between distros. So, you choose the right thing for your own distro, and you(or others) can simply run it to find the right dependancies for the new distro |
| 08:51.21 | hiemanshu | djszapi: I just verified on a phone that I flashed barely 25 mins ago |
| 08:51.22 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: no, because you go to the package search engine and you are ready |
| 08:51.24 | robbiethe1st | Especially useful on things like Maemo |
| 08:51.29 | hiemanshu | djszapi: please stop speaking shit |
| 08:52.01 | djszapi | hiemanshu: please try to behave. People do not like reading "shit", "fuck" and others. |
| 08:52.09 | djszapi | also, no it is not available by me, not installed by default. |
| 08:52.19 | djszapi | but I am happy to see you knowing my gadget and software better than me :D |
| 08:52.35 | hiemanshu | bleh |
| 08:52.41 | hiemanshu | I hate speaking to fag |
| 08:52.44 | hiemanshu | uses /ignore |
| 08:53.44 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: also, it is not trivial to find it sometimes since if you have opengl and opengles installed. |
| 08:54.10 | djszapi | the only thing which can make it nice is a good cmake snippet, to find the proper one for your application. You cannot do it outside of that imho. |
| 08:54.39 | djszapi | so what you are saying will only work with the awareness of the build system |
| 08:54.47 | robbiethe1st | well, yes |
| 08:54.49 | djszapi | and that is also various from autools/cmake/qmake and so forth. |
| 08:54.55 | djszapi | so it is not really a small task :) |
| 09:02.00 | djszapi | robbiethe1st: so technically, it could be done I guess with a lot of work, but easier (at least to me) to go to the relevant distro's package search engine and type a word and get the result accordingly. |
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| 09:12.39 | seif | my n950 has a shit loads of pixelproblems |
| 09:12.43 | seif | it looks like a scratch |
| 09:12.51 | seif | but several ontop of eachother |
| 09:12.56 | seif | all at on location |
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| 09:16.09 | djszapi | seif: the new images are better. Yes the old image had issues. lcuk also mentioned it few weeks ago. |
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| 09:27.14 | artemm | Trying to understand Harmattan's UI guidelines regarding spacing in the header |
| 09:27.23 | artemm | apparently my reading skills aren't good enough |
| 09:27.30 | artemm | Could somebody help, please? |
| 09:27.32 | artemm | http://library.developer.nokia.com/index.jsp?topic=/MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_API/html/qt-components/qt-components-meego-interfaceguide.html |
| 09:27.41 | artemm | In the section "Headers" |
| 09:27.51 | artemm | it says about "Spacing": |
| 09:27.59 | artemm | âª20 pixels on top and bottom in portrait |
| 09:27.59 | artemm | âª16 pixels on top and 14 pixells at bottom in landscape |
| 09:28.29 | artemm | Are these 20 and 16 distance between the header's border and Text element inside it? |
| 09:34.13 | seif | djszapi, so its not a a hardware issue |
| 09:34.14 | seif | ? |
| 09:34.29 | seif | djszapi, again it looks like a set of pixelproblems all over the screen |
| 09:34.41 | seif | well not all over the screen |
| 09:34.54 | seif | but all at the same place |
| 09:35.06 | seif | lines of errors |
| 09:35.29 | robbiethe1st | Reflash, maby? |
| 09:35.51 | seif | i uninstall and reinstall and they are still there |
| 09:36.02 | seif | i mean |
| 09:36.06 | seif | restart and still there |
| 09:36.08 | seif | sorry |
| 09:36.13 | seif | have not reflashed yet |
| 09:37.26 | djszapi | seif: it is not a reflash problem, it is simply an old image, that is. |
| 09:37.36 | seif | djszapi, where can i get a new image |
| 09:37.37 | seif | ? |
| 09:38.30 | sandst1 | seif: we can't |
| 09:38.57 | djszapi | seif: be patient :) |
| 09:38.59 | seif | djszapi, the issue is i did not have that a week ago |
| 09:39.07 | seif | its just magically appeared |
| 09:39.34 | djszapi | oh ? I am not sure exactly what sort of pixelproblem you mean. Try to re-flash then, if it is something that appeared. |
| 09:40.09 | ajalkane | sounds like hw problem |
| 09:40.20 | Hq` | probably a broken display |
| 09:40.49 | djszapi | seif: if re-flash does not help, beg for another device from N. :p |
| 09:41.05 | seif | its not boken |
| 09:41.11 | seif | the glass is fine |
| 09:41.29 | seif | it looks like some1 scratch the lcd internally |
| 09:41.32 | Hq` | it can be broken even if the glass is fine |
| 09:42.00 | seif | hmmmmmmm |
| 09:42.03 | seif | it just look weird |
| 09:42.15 | seif | who in nokia should i ask then? |
| 09:43.01 | djszapi | first step is re-flash, just for making sure. |
| 09:43.18 | seif | ok |
| 09:43.20 | seif | let me try |
| 09:44.17 | seif | it looks like pixels though |
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| 10:15.30 | DocScrutinizer | seif: could you take a photo? |
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| 10:59.20 | seif | DocScrutinizer, http://imgur.com/gj7S5&X6gIq&KUSIll |
| 11:00.57 | SpeedEvil | WAs it like that when you got it? |
| 11:01.07 | SpeedEvil | hmm |
| 11:01.16 | SpeedEvil | I wonder what's immediately uder the display |
| 11:01.24 | SpeedEvil | As it can't be damaged from the top |
| 11:01.58 | SpeedEvil | Is that about the position of the bottom of the hinge? |
| 11:03.10 | SpeedEvil | Hmm - not quite. |
| 11:35.20 | dm8tbr | I know that dropping the device when open and onto the screen is a good way to have a broken device |
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| 13:02.13 | Venemo_N950 | hey |
| 13:02.38 | Venemo_N950 | any news on new firmware for da N950? |
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| 13:15.35 | SpeedEvil | Nope. |
| 13:16.48 | Venemo_N950 | meh |
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| 13:25.40 | mikhas | should have told Venemo that he needs to finish his plate first |
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| 15:54.27 | fiferboy | libqt4-sql-mysql packages and mysql packages are now available in my repo if anyone needs them :) |
| 15:58.05 | DocScrutinizer | seif: the photos are really blurred but from what I can tell by those it looks like a manufacturing error in the LCD, either of structuring the elctrodes, or with TFTs |
| 15:58.26 | DocScrutinizer | or maybe some impurities in the LC |
| 15:59.18 | DocScrutinizer | sometimes mechanical pressure to the screen can cause similar defects, but I can't see how that would happen on N950 |
| 16:01.28 | DocScrutinizer | It could be impact/force applied via the 2 hinges of the middle support lever, from backside |
| 16:19.34 | SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: It's not quite in the right place for that |
| 16:19.59 | SpeedEvil | But maybe something else inside. |
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| 17:33.42 | Qantourisc | DocScrutinizer: thx for info |
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| 17:52.45 | djszapi_ | hi fiferboy :) |
| 17:55.33 | fiferboy | Hi djszapi_ |
| 17:56.49 | djszapi_ | fiferboy: do you know the meego components project from Intel ? |
| 17:57.50 | fiferboy | meego-ux-components? |
| 17:58.04 | fiferboy | I know of them |
| 17:59.21 | djszapi_ | fiferboy: does it address different use cases than qt quick components, or is there some overlap ? |
| 17:59.58 | fiferboy | I imagine there is overlap |
| 18:00.32 | fiferboy | I believe they were developed for mostly the same purposes |
| 18:00.52 | fiferboy | But there wasn't any communication between the teams |
| 18:01.23 | djszapi_ | mmm, that is unfortunate. |
| 18:02.09 | wazd | RST38h: AROUND? |
| 18:02.12 | wazd | oops |
| 18:02.15 | fiferboy | Yes it complicates things |
| 18:02.23 | wazd | hi all :) |
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| 18:11.19 | DocScrutinizer | if both qtquick and meego components are somewhat sane design, it might be possible to write a src converter |
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| 18:12.24 | fiferboy | DocScrutinizer, that has been proposed but I don't know if it is in progress |
| 18:12.40 | djszapi_ | fiferboy: will they cooperate more in the future ? |
| 18:12.52 | djszapi_ | say, merge the two projects. |
| 18:13.56 | fiferboy | djszapi_, I have heard that could be a possibility in the future |
| 18:14.15 | fiferboy | i have no idea how likely it would be, though |
| 18:15.08 | DocScrutinizer | well, one projec would've to adopt the syntax/obj-model of the other, or both abandon theirs and agree on a merger (duh merger, wasn't there a merger sometime in the past...? called something like meeXXX ;-D ) |
| 18:15.20 | alterego | Heh |
| 18:15.28 | alterego | That was more like a hostile take over :P |
| 18:30.42 | npm | the dreaded application closing blanks the "applications view" bug strikes again. any solution other than rebooting or swiping back and forth to reset the list of actual applications running |
| 18:31.14 | npm | and, since it's so obvious, i assume it's a known bug and doesn't need reporting?? |
| 18:32.06 | fiferboy | npm, do you have desktop rotation turned on? |
| 18:32.38 | npm | no |
| 18:32.57 | npm | um, you mean do some apps work w/ rotation? yes |
| 18:33.05 | npm | looks at options again |
| 18:36.05 | fiferboy | I mean the option to make the home screens rotate to landscape |
| 18:36.28 | npm | the nonstandard extension you mean? i didn't see any option to do that |
| 18:36.31 | berndhs | where does one file bugs for harmattan ? |
| 18:36.52 | berndhs | with nokia someplace ? |
| 18:37.17 | fiferboy | npm, I it through extending the theme css file IIRC |
| 18:37.22 | npm | i'm trying not to break my device too much yet :-) thus have been staying away from playing around w/ options once i got things working ("if it ain't broke.." |
| 18:37.24 | fiferboy | It causes so, |
| 18:37.24 | npm | ) |
| 18:37.30 | fiferboy | me weirdness |
| 18:38.17 | npm | but that wouln't be the cause of the app-closer bug since i seem to have it w/o that extension |
| 18:38.21 | npm | ? |
| 18:38.38 | npm | or do you mean that rotating the device while an app is in use causes the app-closer bug |
| 18:39.24 | fiferboy | seems not related to rotation if you don't have it on |
| 18:45.55 | npm | AH |
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| 19:11.40 | rzr | hi |
| 19:11.47 | rzr | i think i broke messagemanager |
| 19:14.22 | rzr | http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=29797#post29797 |
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| 19:47.31 | special | hmm, is there going to be skype support built-in? |
| 19:47.42 | djszapi_ | yes |
| 19:48.07 | special | ah, good. The current n950 build has no hint of it. |
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| 19:49.12 | djszapi_ | However skype is not stable when I last used. |
| 19:49.20 | djszapi_ | but let us see. |
| 19:50.41 | special | I want anything that isn't facebook chat :p |
| 19:53.26 | djszapi_ | ++++++++1 |
| 19:53.43 | DocScrutinizer | skype wil continue to be a battery killer, no way to help that |
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| 19:54.39 | djszapi_ | DocScrutinizer: I do not mind that if I can make a call abroad more cheaply than with a "normal" phone call. I am loading it all the time from my laptop anyways |
| 19:55.14 | djszapi_ | load -> charge |
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| 20:19.47 | rzr | special: SIP chat is working |
| 20:26.15 | dm8tbr | are there any real world uses for that? |
| 20:32.51 | ajalkane | dm8tbr: well... if you have a geeky friend or a wife who lets you install SIP into her phone, then it can be handy |
| 20:33.30 | ajalkane | I installed SIP into my wife's phone. She removed it. Failure. |
| 20:34.18 | Arkenoi | failed miserably today trying to open a book in fbreader |
| 20:34.26 | ajalkane | Why? Because the icon it put into the main screen reminded her of something that I won't mention here. |
| 20:36.37 | Arkenoi | fbreader UI sucked even on n900, but it did not go that far to spend 15 minutes in futile efforts to tap "properly" and precisely enough |
| 20:40.00 | dm8tbr | Arkenoi: ouch |
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| 20:40.41 | dm8tbr | ajalkane: I guess I'll stick to my plan to figure out how to manually add an arbitrary XMPP account to the telepathy config :) |
| 20:41.27 | ajalkane | dm8tbr: yeah well, let us know if you succeed. As XMPP should work with gTalk too, I can get even my wifey to use it :). |
| 20:42.50 | djszapi_ | it is not a big deal with the tp connection manager, however it is already done in newer images. Also, there is some hack flowing around how you can use it. |
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| 21:03.04 | thp | ok, so how can i have a left-aligned back button + two right aligned other buttons in a QML ToolBar? (qt quick components) |
| 21:05.24 | ajalkane | thp: right-most item to parent.right, and the second right-most to that button's anchors.left ? |
| 21:06.16 | thp | ajalkane: hmm i don't anchor anything at all there. can/should i anchor ToolIcon elements to ToolBarLayouts? |
| 21:06.54 | ajalkane | thp: you can anchor, it did so in some example too which I copied from |
| 21:07.02 | thp | what I have now is ToolBarLayout { ToolIcon {} Item {} ToolIcon {} ToolIcon {} } |
| 21:07.15 | thp | which seems to work great if only one of the last two items is visible |
| 21:07.21 | thp | ok, i'll try to anchor it :) |
| 21:07.36 | ajalkane | I've got like this to anchor the menu to right: ToolIcon { |
| 21:07.36 | ajalkane | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:07.36 | ajalkane | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:07.36 | ajalkane | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:07.39 | ajalkane | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:08.29 | ajalkane | And it's straight from the qt-components example, so I guess it's "canonical" if not beatiful :P |
| 21:08.55 | thp | indeed. anchoring works beautifully :) |
| 21:09.02 | mikhas | this looks horrible |
| 21:09.11 | thp | anchors.right: toolPlay.visible?toolPlay.left:toolPlay.right |
| 21:09.16 | mikhas | and why the ungodly triple= |
| 21:09.26 | thp | (with toolPlay being my rightmost tool button) |
| 21:09.47 | ajalkane | The triply thing is something about not enforcing types. I don't quite understand it, but QtCreator gives a warning without it |
| 21:10.11 | thp | ajalkane: well, do you reparent that ToolIcon? |
| 21:10.18 | thp | because if not, that's not really needed |
| 21:10.24 | ajalkane | thp: no, it sits inside ToolBarLayout |
| 21:10.30 | thp | well then you don't need it |
| 21:10.36 | thp | because that will always have a parent |
| 21:10.40 | thp | (the ToolBarLayout) |
| 21:11.11 | ajalkane | thp: QtCreator says "== pefromrs type coercion, use === to avoid it" warning |
| 21:13.21 | thp | ajalkane: hehe.. that's true |
| 21:13.22 | ajalkane | ah right now I understood, parent === undefined is unneeded altogether. I wonder why it's there |
| 21:13.37 | thp | alterego: but "anchors.right: parent.right" is sufficient |
| 21:13.48 | alterego | Yes, usually :P |
| 21:13.56 | alterego | Though I'm guessing that's meant for someone else :) |
| 21:13.57 | thp | that's why i asked if you reparent it |
| 21:14.32 | ajalkane | yeah... I just copy-pasted it. But you're right. I don't understand why it's there. Maybe someone else also copy-pasted it from something more complex :) |
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| 21:15.20 | DocScrutinizer | (SIP chat) I've seen SIP chat posts getting translated to SMS and reverse, and also seen each single line creating another INVITE which made it rather easy to create a whole block with ringing phones, hell even half a small town of all phones ringing :-) |
| 21:16.18 | DocScrutinizer | the provider fixed that bug *rapidly* ;-P |
| 21:16.55 | DocScrutinizer | been Sipgate.de btw |
| 21:17.30 | DocScrutinizer | one of their gateways been severely misconfigured |
| 21:17.55 | ajalkane | I'm surprised SIPs still around and supported. I guess it's used still in some corporate environments (?). |
| 21:18.05 | DocScrutinizer | EH? |
| 21:18.23 | Arkenoi | ajalkane: huh? any better alternative? |
| 21:18.45 | DocScrutinizer | actually we are halfway to swapping all ISDN/POTS phones for SIP aka NGN phones here in Germany |
| 21:19.12 | ajalkane | I mean, I've never seen any end-users using it |
| 21:19.19 | DocScrutinizer | HAHAHA |
| 21:19.42 | ajalkane | Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't it basically do what Skype and XMPP etc. does? |
| 21:19.53 | DocScrutinizer | end-users just aren't aware they are using SIP |
| 21:20.50 | ajalkane | I know it's been around in the telco business, but as a direct end-user product. Is it necessary? |
| 21:21.20 | DocScrutinizer | they just plug in that combined DSL&phone box of 1&1 or Arcor or whatever is the name of your favourite provider |
| 21:22.36 | DocScrutinizer | as mentioned above I gues ~50% of German phone lines are SIP and users aren't even aware of the fact |
| 21:23.31 | DocScrutinizer | basically SIP is the ISDN of internet age |
| 21:23.34 | ajalkane | That's what I mean, it's a behind-the-scenes protocol. I mean is there any realistic use-case for having a SIP account on phones that you can configure? |
| 21:24.03 | ajalkane | It's been on Nokia phones forever, but I can't use it with anyone practically |
| 21:24.09 | Arkenoi | i use SIP all the time |
| 21:24.28 | DocScrutinizer | sure, e.g. if you think SIP can and will do more than that stupid box with the plain old phone plugged in to it |
| 21:24.43 | Arkenoi | because i prefer to pay fair termination fee, not some nonsense "long distance" |
| 21:25.56 | Arkenoi | also i want to receive call wherever i am without nonsense "roaming" fees |
| 21:26.04 | ajalkane | The stupid phone box is long dead at least here in Finland. |
| 21:26.31 | ajalkane | I understand those use cases, but aren't those exactly what Skype and similar provide? |
| 21:26.35 | DocScrutinizer | uhuh, so what are you using then? configurable SIP phones? |
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| 21:27.23 | Arkenoi | and what is the point of using skype, ugly, proprietary and generally sucking while there is good kosher SIP? |
| 21:27.34 | ajalkane | Just mobile phones. I think for Voip Skype is the most used, SIP... I've not seen anyone use it here |
| 21:27.41 | rm_code | Arkenoi: to talk to the millions of people who have skype... |
| 21:27.57 | ajalkane | I agree I'd rather use SIP than Skype. But it just doesn't seem to be happening |
| 21:27.58 | Arkenoi | i do not care about millions too stupid to configure sip :-) |
| 21:28.21 | rm_code | Arkenoi: like my mother... or all of my non-geek friends, or my girlfriend.... |
| 21:28.45 | Sput | SIP sucks in a lot of NATted networks where Skype just works, apparently |
| 21:28.53 | rm_code | ^^ also true |
| 21:29.05 | DocScrutinizer | uhuh, doesn't seem to be happening? why not? |
| 21:29.10 | Arkenoi | Sput: not really. solved long time ago. |
| 21:29.13 | rm_code | skype has some MAGIC going on with NAT, it can connect when i can't even get to web pages sometimes |
| 21:29.31 | Sput | might be less of an issue nowadays, with smart routers having autoconfig for that, but that's the main reason skype got big - it worked out of the box, where most other solutions didn't |
| 21:29.32 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer: I don't know. Maybe it's too hard to configure for them, they don't know what the hell SIP is, or there's not easy enough ready-made-service. |
| 21:29.41 | Arkenoi | i use sip even with public wifi hotspots and experience no problems |
| 21:29.45 | DocScrutinizer | https://secure.sipgate.de/catalog/ |
| 21:30.16 | thp | wazd: btw, any progress on the replacements for my crappy self-made artwork in gpodder? :) |
| 21:30.23 | DocScrutinizer | I use SIP even over UMTS and have no problems |
| 21:30.35 | rm_code | and i would love to use SIP, but it doesn't help me talk to the huge infrastructure of people i already talk to with skype and who aren't technically savvy enough to get SIP working |
| 21:30.49 | rm_code | not to mention, you call Skype ugly, but have you seen the average windows SIP client? >_> |
| 21:31.19 | rzr | do u know of sip2xmpp gateways ? |
| 21:31.20 | ajalkane | I configured SIP to my gf's phone so that I could call her free. And she configured it away. Lol. |
| 21:31.41 | rm_code | i think you're making the wrong argument -- is SIP better than skype? probably. but is that enough of a reason to say we don't need skype working? hell no |
| 21:32.27 | DocScrutinizer | what do you think is this service running on: http://www.1und1.de/Jumpto?site=PU.AD.DE&origin.page=Home&page=DslEinstieg&linkOrigin=Home&linkId=ct.btn.productswitch.dsl |
| 21:33.12 | DocScrutinizer | rm_code: I give a shit about those i***** |
| 21:33.45 | ajalkane | I'm happy Germany has apparently good mainstream usage of SIP. But that's not the case at least here in Finland. It's mobile phones or Skype. |
| 21:33.54 | DocScrutinizer | I don't WANT skype working, as it cuts thru my battery in no time |
| 21:34.39 | rm_code | DocScrutinizer, thanks for telling me you don't give a shit about the "idiots" that are my family and the people i love. go fuck yourself. |
| 21:34.46 | ajalkane | And what I've observed, Skype is used only from computers to make those annoying video calls. I hate enough using my voice, having video on top of that would be far too sociable! |
| 21:35.15 | rm_code | and maybe think about what you're saying before you make absolute statements |
| 21:35.39 | rm_code | the bottom line is, SOME PEOPLE NEED SKYPE, so it would be nice to have it working alongside SIP. |
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| 21:36.10 | SpeedEvil | Same as with flash. |
| 21:36.16 | DocScrutinizer | rm_code: sorry you got me wrong, I can call *every* phone in Germany for *free* with that 1&1 account. and I don't care if the far end is SIP or what else |
| 21:36.51 | rm_code | it is not like that in the US |
| 21:37.07 | rm_code | and 95% of the people i know have Skype set up and working |
| 21:37.17 | rm_code | and i know only ONE PERSON with SIP working |
| 21:37.27 | rm_code | but i don't know how to contact him via SIP because we normally use skype |
| 21:37.33 | DocScrutinizer | and if some smart guy knows how to configure his SIP client on his smartphone so his landline number is working on that smartphone SIP as well, fine, I call her for free too |
| 21:38.09 | DocScrutinizer | shrugs |
| 21:38.19 | DocScrutinizer | US also has CDMA I heard |
| 21:38.31 | DocScrutinizer | doesn't mean CDMA is better than GSM or UMTS |
| 21:38.32 | berndhs | yeah CDMA works greeat |
| 21:38.43 | Sput | I'm in Germany, and most people I know use skype |
| 21:38.46 | ajalkane | Almost no one uses landline phones anymore in Finland. We're all at the clutches of the evil operators here. I don't think they have much interest in providing SIP support :P |
| 21:38.51 | Sput | hardly any SIP users, except for a few geeks |
| 21:38.59 | Sput | that is *not* the target audience for phones |
| 21:39.16 | DocScrutinizer | I know *very* few people that have a skype PHONE |
| 21:39.28 | Sput | also, note that to my knowledge, only O2 allows SIP via GSM anyway |
| 21:39.59 | DocScrutinizer | and the people *I* know are not sitting in front of their PC all day and all night, hell some of them even SHUT IT DOWN :-o |
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| 21:40.25 | Sput | DocScrutinizer: that can't be |
| 21:40.30 | Sput | computers cannot be shut down |
| 21:40.37 | Sput | that is physically impossible, for all I know |
| 21:41.06 | berndhs | the world's gonna end if we shut down all the computers |
| 21:42.18 | ajalkane | Ah... how cool would it be to shutdown the world's last computer, knowing you're gonna trigger the end of the world doing it |
| 21:43.12 | ajalkane | It could be some old crusty VAX in some basement... I bet I couldn't even figure out how to shut down one of those beasts. |
| 21:43.27 | DocScrutinizer | and for a sequel to the "i****" part: look at sipgate.co.uk or whatever first level domain you prefer. The download of their SIP softphone client, ready with preconfigured setup, is at least as simple as that for skype |
| 21:44.03 | berndhs | cleaning personnel had no trouble shutting down Vaxen |
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| 21:44.24 | Sput | that does *not* change the fact that there is a huge ass installed userbase of skype, and you can't just ignore them for the same reason that facebook will still be around for a long time despite g+, and ICQ still is there even though Jabber is better |
| 21:45.03 | DocScrutinizer | just sign-up is a bit more tedious, as you get a free landline number and they want some of your person's data for that. Unlike skype where you can start with random BS nicknames as "phonenumber" |
| 21:45.53 | DocScrutinizer | I actually can and I actually do. Both friggin skype and brainfsckd rogue facebook |
| 21:46.23 | DocScrutinizer | yu want to force me to use them? |
| 21:46.31 | DocScrutinizer | good luck! |
| 21:46.46 | Sput | you can use whatever you want |
| 21:46.58 | rm_code | good developers realize that you can't ignore a huge userbase. you don't have to use it yourself, but if you want large-scale acceptance/adoption of a platform, you have to make the tools the AVERAGE PERSON wants |
| 21:46.59 | ajalkane | hmm... what if Jesus said you must use one of those services to get into heaven? |
| 21:47.18 | Sput | but ignoring that the better part of the population uses worse stuff, usually made by "the market leader", is not smart either |
| 21:48.05 | DocScrutinizer | mhm and the average person wants to use skype from their smartphone, to annoy those who can't and have to sit in front of their computer - I see |
| 21:48.13 | DocScrutinizer | waves |
| 21:48.21 | DocScrutinizer | afk |
| 21:48.31 | rm_code | you can be an elitist techno-geek all you want :/ |
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| 21:48.37 | rm_code | Android has a skype client |
| 21:48.42 | rm_code | iOS has a skype client |
| 21:49.02 | ajalkane | N9 has a skype client! |
| 21:49.22 | Sput | the same argumentation as for why do people still use windows |
| 21:49.26 | Sput | or other legacy software |
| 21:49.39 | ajalkane | my grandma has a skype client :(. Even my poor grandma! But I don't. Shit... |
| 21:49.49 | Sput | all we can do is educate them, and while trying to do that, trying to support as much of the legacy crap as possible |
| 21:50.00 | rm_code | even winmo7 is about to have a skype client |
| 21:50.14 | Sput | skype on the windows desktop sucks btw since MS bought it |
| 21:50.16 | javispedro | oh, you CAN ignore the large existing skype userbase |
| 21:50.18 | javispedro | it's quite easy. |
| 21:50.19 | Sput | it has started crashing |
| 21:50.26 | Sput | and it plays video ads now. |
| 21:50.32 | rm_code | Sput: yeah i still run the old version |
| 21:50.47 | ajalkane | Good old MS. They sure know how to make life a little bit more annoying. |
| 21:51.03 | javispedro | I managed to ignore the quite large MSN userbase when MS managed to get into the #1 IM provider slot due to their monopolish practices. |
| 21:51.14 | javispedro | so skype should even be easier! |
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| 21:52.06 | ajalkane | I used to have MSN account. But then came the good Jabber clients. |
| 21:53.07 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: I don't know a single skype user I couldn't call via _phone_ for free :-D Using my SIP account (admittedly that'S because I only know skype users that are also here in Germany - if my Granny wouldn't be dead but living in Honolulu I might actually consider using skype, for her sake) |
| 21:53.45 | Sput | and I'd hate you for calling me on my *phone* |
| 21:53.53 | Sput | because I hate using a phone for calls |
| 21:54.00 | Sput | computer is so much more convenient! |
| 21:54.03 | rm_code | lol |
| 21:54.11 | MohammadAG | <ajalkane> N9 has a skype client! |
| 21:54.20 | MohammadAG | N950 has a skype client, telepathy-spirit is installed |
| 21:54.28 | MohammadAG | BUT, UI is missing, and skyhost expired |
| 21:54.38 | DocScrutinizer | or I'd get her a German SIP account and plug the Grandstream SIP phone with proper configuration into her DSL router |
| 21:55.06 | *** join/#harmattan rcg1 (~rc@g230048043.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 21:55.07 | MohammadAG | if anyone has any idea how to mount an N9(50) rootfs.jffs2, you too can have a skype client |
| 21:55.12 | ajalkane | MohammadAG: well yes, actually you could say N9(XX)? has/will have Skype client |
| 21:56.00 | ajalkane | I'm not sure how much it's worth to spend time on having Skype/gTalk on N950 as the new firmware should come in few weeks now. |
| 21:56.24 | DocScrutinizer | Sput: yeah, I also always use the hairdryer for roasting my toast |
| 21:57.21 | ajalkane | I don't like phone calls. It makes me talk, and listen to talking. Why can't they just send e-mail, text message, or IM? Much more convenient. |
| 21:57.42 | Sput | ajalkane: I agree |
| 21:57.55 | artemm | depends on the priority |
| 21:57.57 | Sput | I have my headset on anyways while sitting at the computer |
| 21:57.59 | artemm | ;) |
| 21:58.09 | artemm | phonecalls resolve issues faster |
| 21:58.22 | artemm | but stop the progress on all the unrelated issues |
| 21:58.28 | Sput | not if people like me ignore them most of the time :P |
| 21:58.47 | ajalkane | Okay I understand if there's a goddamn catastrophe lurking, like a meteor is about to strike, or my baby's about to drown in a radioactive waste. But otherwise? Just send me a message. |
| 21:59.10 | rm_code | can SIP do large conference calls? and can it do video? I *think* it can, but i don't remember right now where i saw the guides for it |
| 21:59.17 | DocScrutinizer | you're aware you're in a channel that has a smartPHONE as topic? |
| 21:59.37 | Sput | certainly. |
| 21:59.39 | DocScrutinizer | rm_code: video yes, even N900 |
| 21:59.50 | rm_code | yeah well at the moment my n950 is admittedly barely a phone, if i make calls i can't hang up or interface with the dialer at all for automated services |
| 21:59.51 | ajalkane | I have a SMART(phone) so that I don't need the phone so much, but do things smart. |
| 21:59.55 | artemm | oh, Harmattan can do phone calls as well! That's a cool extra feature! |
| 21:59.55 | DocScrutinizer | conference - depends. needs support from your provider |
| 22:00.03 | DocScrutinizer | or special clients |
| 22:00.04 | MohammadAG | I never truly appreciated BT headsets till I started driving alone |
| 22:00.11 | Sput | DocScrutinizer: my cell phone bill hovers around 3â¬/month, and I don't have a cheap or flat-fee contract |
| 22:00.18 | Sput | I use a few GB of internet though. |
| 22:00.20 | special | I'm amused that I started this with an offhand comment 2 hours ago.. and it's still going |
| 22:01.13 | rm_code | i'm amused (not surprised) at how many absolute minded people there are here who think there is only one way to do things |
| 22:01.30 | DocScrutinizer | ajalkane: [[ SMART(phone) ]] seems harmattan and N9 isn't the device and OS for you |
| 22:01.35 | Sput | rm_code: obviously, no perl coders :> |
| 22:01.50 | rm_code | "this service is better, so everyone should use this, because it is the RIGHT WAY to do things, everyone else be damned" |
| 22:02.08 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer: Dunno, liking N950 so far, I'd imagine N9 will be just great too |
| 22:02.38 | rm_code | i got used to doing things I thought were dumb a *long time ago*, because not every user does things "the right way" and you can't expect them to... and if you treat them like idiots they will abandon your software |
| 22:02.45 | DocScrutinizer | ajalkane: for the SMART part it seems to emphasize the phone part way too much |
| 22:02.52 | Sput | if I did a lot of calling, the N950 certainly would be the wrong device for me... it's just too heavy to keep it on-ear for extended amounts of time :> |
| 22:02.57 | rm_code | go ahead and say "i don't want them using my software anyway". i dare you. |
| 22:03.51 | rm_code | I hope the next firmware fixes calling n N950, currently fairly useless as a phone because i have to reboot it after every phonecall to hang up |
| 22:04.04 | Sput | oh? that works fine for me |
| 22:04.13 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer: I don't understand what you mean, either I'm too drunk or too tired. But anyway, the traditional phone usage of my mobile phones has decreased a lot compared to the traditional phone usage (as in talking). And that's a good thing. |
| 22:04.19 | Sput | I would love if it used the notification light to, well, notify about missed calls though |
| 22:04.22 | artemm | really? Public N950 FW makes calls very fine for me |
| 22:04.33 | rm_code | you're lucky then |
| 22:04.58 | special | I've only had to reboot to end a call once |
| 22:04.59 | rm_code | theres a lot of people for whom the "active call window" is just a black screen -- and if you close it, it doesn't hang up the call |
| 22:05.13 | DocScrutinizer | ajalkane: I'm just talking for the talking it seems - ignore me for the next 1h ;-D |
| 22:05.47 | DocScrutinizer | ajalkane: probably I just noticed I don't know what I mean either :-) |
| 22:06.19 | ajalkane | DocScrutinizer: Well, my reply was really non-sensical also, so let's call it even. |
| 22:06.29 | DocScrutinizer | deal |
| 22:06.32 | DocScrutinizer | XD |
| 22:07.13 | DocScrutinizer | afk again |
| 22:07.13 | Sput | for me the task manager crashes a lot, but calls seem to work fine |
| 22:07.21 | Sput | but as I said, I'm not calling that much :) |
| 22:07.32 | MohammadAG | task manager crashes? |
| 22:07.36 | DocScrutinizer | have a look into SIP, it's way better than a lot of people seem to think |
| 22:07.45 | Sput | yeah. it just goes black and doesn't display tasks anymore |
| 22:07.46 | MohammadAG | ponders doing a quick daemon to use the notification light for missed calls |
| 22:07.57 | ajalkane | I've never had task manager crashes |
| 22:08.04 | MohammadAG | the 3 event views suspend when you swipe out of them |
| 22:08.04 | Sput | MohammadAG: that would rock... |
| 22:08.25 | MohammadAG | by suspend I mean they don't redraw, and stay black |
| 22:08.46 | Sput | I can swipe around as much as I want, I can't reactivate the task manager after that happened |
| 22:09.21 | MohammadAG | I'm just saying what's prolly causing it for you :p |
| 22:10.19 | MohammadAG | javispedro, /etc/mce/mce-radio-states.ini |
| 22:10.38 | ajalkane | Sometimes it's happened to me, though, that I can't open the apps from task-manager. It goes into some kind of stucked state. |
| 22:11.00 | ajalkane | But it recovers when I start an app from the application list. |
| 22:11.06 | javispedro | MohammadAG: afaik, that's a file that lists the available hw |
| 22:11.16 | javispedro | MohammadAG: one -dadd package overwrites it with the version you are seeing |
| 22:11.20 | MohammadAG | FMTX = false? |
| 22:11.28 | javispedro | the n950 has no fmtx |
| 22:11.40 | MohammadAG | it has a wl1271 |
| 22:11.43 | MohammadAG | which has an FMTX afaik |
| 22:11.48 | javispedro | yes, same as n9, |
| 22:11.53 | javispedro | but no antenna; the n9 might. |
| 22:12.07 | MohammadAG | f the antenna, get the base hardware to work then plug an antenna |
| 22:12.25 | MohammadAG | we can put an antenna in place of the microSD slo.... waaiit... |
| 22:12.55 | javispedro | the board file for the rm680 basically says that the fmtx is fscked |
| 22:13.10 | javispedro | the one for the rm696 on the other side does not |
| 22:13.52 | javispedro | yes, I could remove the fmtx is fsck parted either by rebuildign the kernel or by using a unseal.ko-like trick, but I bet it won't work |
| 22:14.04 | javispedro | s/fmtx is fsck parted/"fmtx is fsck" part |
| 22:14.10 | MohammadAG | wouldn't hurt to try :p |
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| 22:14.17 | javispedro | fmrx goes before that! |
| 22:14.27 | MohammadAG | oh and illegal fmtxs are kinda good |
| 22:14.36 | MohammadAG | I wonder if I could turn up power on that |
| 22:14.52 | javispedro | get me a datasheet to search for the power specs =) |
| 22:17.53 | javispedro | the weird part is BluetoothRadioState=false |
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| 23:16.06 | DocScrutinizer | isn't it a real big advantage that everything is OSS on maemo? |
| 23:16.45 | DocScrutinizer | nad everything comes with a comprehensive manpage |
| 23:16.49 | DocScrutinizer | and* |
| 23:18.18 | javispedro | that's why we should all switch to Meego! |
| 23:18.19 | javispedro | hides |
| 23:18.47 | DocScrutinizer | everything is so damn well documented that the schematics and datasheets they published for us are almost redundant |
| 23:19.16 | DocScrutinizer | we wouldn't really need them |
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