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| 15:00.40 | *** topic/#harmattan is A place for harmattan device and development discussions | Customers help customers on #N9, hurry and you're the senior member | Please stay on topic and no NDA stuff here | Developers : http://library.developer.nokia.com/ | http://wiki.meego.com/N950_landing_page | logs: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/ | ~aegis-no-thanks | LATEST ~update |
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| 17:00.00 | rzr | hi |
| 17:02.29 | itsnotabigtruck | hey rzr |
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| 17:06.41 | rzr | thx for notifying about the upgrade + inception |
| 17:11.05 | DocScrutinizer | well, I told you it will happen like that when you came up with your inception idea. IT's been absolutely clear and expected, so notifying about the particular moment the game advanced one step is all I can detect |
| 17:12.19 | itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: to use one of your favorite phrases, MEH |
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| 17:13.09 | itsnotabigtruck | i made the mistake of assuming that everything was going to arrive en bloc, that's all |
| 17:13.17 | itsnotabigtruck | which in retrospect was somewhat stupid because they did the same thing last time |
| 17:14.00 | DocScrutinizer | Nokia wil ship an "update" for every inception version you publish |
| 17:14.44 | itsnotabigtruck | if so, then maybe that'll keep some harmattan devs employed for a bit longer :p |
| 17:14.52 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
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| 17:16.44 | DocScrutinizer | alas only platsec devels |
| 17:16.53 | rzr | <itsnotabigtruck> if so, then maybe that'll keep some harmattan devs employed for a bit longer :p |
| 17:16.55 | rzr | +1 |
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| 17:17.23 | rzr | now we found a solution to keep the project alive :-) |
| 17:17.35 | DocScrutinizer | not really |
| 17:18.48 | DocScrutinizer | Nokia already investing manpower into platsec/paegis which better oughta be used for progress in other more useful sectors of HARM |
| 17:19.34 | ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer: they should be investing in update and support, but not that |
| 17:19.46 | DocScrutinizer | and for all I can see even in this channel a lot of smart FOSS devels are investing lots of time in fighting paegis instead of improving the core functionality of their apps |
| 17:20.16 | DocScrutinizer | not that they had any choice |
| 17:20.23 | DocScrutinizer | paegis offers no choice |
| 17:26.23 | jonni | you just have to figure out how to get pgp key as trusted and make nice tool for signing the packages (and own custom repo as com.nokia.maemo trusted) and hopefully using some feature that cannot be patched :) |
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| 17:28.40 | DocScrutinizer | actually I'd think the only thing that can't get patched is ROM-BootLoader |
| 17:29.31 | DocScrutinizer | or cracking original Nokia rootcert PKI |
| 17:30.05 | DocScrutinizer | which *could* get 'patched' but only by replacing *all* binaries/packages |
| 17:31.08 | itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: evidently you have no idea how the signing scheme works |
| 17:31.19 | DocScrutinizer | mhm |
| 17:31.32 | itsnotabigtruck | you'd be a lot more credible if you knew what you were whinging about |
| 17:32.20 | DocScrutinizer | you'd be not considered an asshole by so many credible users of this chan if you were a bit less arrogant and offensive |
| 17:33.04 | bindi | children :( no fighting |
| 17:33.27 | itsnotabigtruck | you want to talk about offensive? |
| 17:33.57 | DocScrutinizer | educate me, oh master! |
| 17:34.37 | bindi | pls :< |
| 17:35.03 | Jare | Imho a lot people don't want to invest any time learning how aegis works and are whining because of that |
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| 17:36.17 | DocScrutinizer | ~dict whining |
| 17:36.35 | DocScrutinizer | so we maybe at least know what we're talking about |
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| 18:15.13 | ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer: i see you talking a lot, but most is negative against others work. i maybe wrong, but dudn't see too much work you done. maybe i missed |
| 18:16.37 | pa | is pyside still supported/developed as far as you know? |
| 18:16.53 | pa | mailing list last message is feb 2012 |
| 18:19.48 | lizardo | pa: original developers are still working on it , but mostly on free time :/ Nokia funding ceased as mentioned on the mailing list |
| 18:20.02 | pa | ah i see.. |
| 18:20.05 | pa | sad |
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| 18:21.03 | lizardo | pa: but you should know that it is now a Qt add-on, so it least it will not disappear, just not sure how quick will be to keep up to date with latest Qt |
| 18:21.38 | pa | ah i see.. but if so, shouldnt it be officially developed? |
| 18:22.20 | lizardo | pa: it is more a community effort now, i.e. no current funding from Nokia (AFAIK) |
| 18:23.00 | pa | anyway, i was mostly concerned about the assistant, that packages in a way that is incompatible with the store |
| 18:23.12 | pa | (e.g., putting stuff in /usr/bin/) |
| 18:23.39 | pa | but now that i think about it, maybe that's python too |
| 18:23.45 | pa | so i could have a look at it |
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| 18:40.57 | Jare | itsnotabigtruck: so installing the developer mode updates doesn't affect Inception, if it is installed before those updates? |
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| 18:43.14 | itsnotabigtruck | Jare: precisely |
| 18:43.24 | itsnotabigtruck | specifically it makes it so you can't chroot from user programs |
| 18:45.21 | Jare | ok, maybe I'll just run the updates then.. |
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| 19:02.48 | pa | i have a little problem with flashing the phone |
| 19:02.58 | pa | apparently flasher -i doesnt recognize it |
| 19:03.16 | pa | and when i plug it powered off, windows cant install drivers |
| 19:05.27 | pa | ah now it goes |
| 19:08.56 | itsnotabigtruck | Jare: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82835 |
| 19:10.44 | Jare | itsnotabigtruck: well that was quick :) |
| 19:12.17 | jkt | so I've just updated http://jkt.flaska.net/n950/trojita-tp_0.3.0_armel.deb yet again |
| 19:13.14 | itsnotabigtruck | jkt: got some screenshots? |
| 19:16.04 | jkt | itsnotabigtruck: I'll make some |
| 19:29.21 | itsnotabigtruck | btw jkt: make sure to get inception 0.1.1 |
| 19:29.38 | itsnotabigtruck | and pa |
| 19:30.14 | itsnotabigtruck | lizardo: nokia dumped pyside? that's not a good sign for qt in general |
| 19:31.19 | jkt | itsnotabigtruck: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1192921#post1192921 |
| 19:32.02 | jkt | itsnotabigtruck: is that some rooting tool? why should I need it over the built-in developer mode? |
| 19:32.18 | itsnotabigtruck | jkt: looks pretty nice for alpha software :) |
| 19:32.43 | itsnotabigtruck | that 2nd area definitely needs to be harmattanized a bit but i'm sure that'll come with time |
| 19:32.59 | itsnotabigtruck | yeah, it's a rooting tool |
| 19:33.07 | itsnotabigtruck | developer mode gives you a small subset of the permissions available |
| 19:33.12 | itsnotabigtruck | inception gives you any and all permissions |
| 19:33.24 | itsnotabigtruck | there's a lot of things you can't do with dev mode |
| 19:33.30 | jkt | yeah, well |
| 19:33.34 | jkt | enough for me :) |
| 19:33.38 | itsnotabigtruck | there's quite few things you can't do with inception |
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| 19:39.25 | ZogG_laptop | jkt: oh gentoo pal =) |
| 19:41.40 | ZogG_laptop | jkt: put the updated info and last screenshots in first post as well |
| 19:43.23 | jkt | itsnotabigtruck: would you suggest particular tweaks for the appearance of the mailbox listing? |
| 19:44.19 | jkt | ZogG_laptop: looks like I cannot do that, that post belongs to someone else |
| 19:46.49 | ZogG_laptop | jkt: if you are the one who gonna develop/maintain it - make the new one i think |
| 19:47.02 | lizardo | itsnotabigtruck: it migrated to a Qt Add-on , because the original project was ceased (given it was mostly oriented to Harmattan...), so it is no community driven |
| 19:47.24 | lizardo | s/no/now/ |
| 19:48.02 | lizardo | bogus bot :) |
| 19:50.16 | itsnotabigtruck | i'll bbiab |
| 20:01.52 | GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, do you have a maemo.org account? (mwkn.net) |
| 20:05.49 | RST38h | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/16/moodys_downgrade_nokia_junk/ |
| 20:10.28 | DocScrutinizer | ZogG_laptop: I see you stating a lot of nonsense, but most of it is obscure how you came to this notion. I may be wrong, but I don't see too much reasonable posts or other contributions you did. Maybe I missed the point you're actually just trolling |
| 20:11.29 | ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer: there are not much i've done, but my point was that you little bit negative time to time |
| 20:12.37 | DocScrutinizer | sorry I don't satisfy your expectations of positive entertainment |
| 20:12.47 | DocScrutinizer | but that's for sure mutual |
| 20:13.03 | RST38h | So, anyone willing to bet on Elop's head-on-a-stick by Christmas time? |
| 20:13.10 | DocScrutinizer | fixes the glitch that sneaked into his /ignore list |
| 20:13.41 | RST38h | Or will they keep him until February, to give the whole affair a sense of circularity? |
| 20:17.31 | ZogG_laptop | RST38h: let's bet that next move even after Elop would be stupid as well. like swithching to android or something =) |
| 20:17.56 | RST38h | I can easily guess what the next move is |
| 20:18.09 | RST38h | it won't be rather inconsequentlial though |
| 20:18.17 | RST38h | Elop is preparing a Win8 tablet. |
| 20:19.09 | RST38h | And WP7 is all but abandoned by MS, as they are promising full-scale Win8 on ARM devices by Christmas. As far as teams inside MS are concerned, WP7 is most likely ancient history. |
| 20:20.02 | RST38h | Of course there is a small matter of Nokia relying on WP7 to survive, but this doesnot concern MS employees: Nokia is not paying their bonuses |
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| 20:20.46 | ZogG_laptop | lol |
| 20:21.28 | ZogG_laptop | RST38h: but what do you think would be phones strategy? as i assume win8 is more for tablets |
| 20:21.58 | ZogG_laptop | MeaTizen - it's Tizen + meego + maemo =) |
| 20:22.10 | RST38h | there is no phone strategy |
| 20:22.25 | RST38h | there is low cost S40 quickly reaching S60 functionality |
| 20:22.43 | RST38h | There is Symbian (whatever it is called now) which continues selling Nokia smartphones |
| 20:23.03 | RST38h | And then there is braindead Lumias that Nokia is failing to sell to customers |
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| 20:23.29 | RST38h | So they are trying two approaches to making their ends meet: 1) subscribe businesses, giving them lumias in bulk |
| 20:23.53 | ZogG_laptop | i hoped for harmattan getting back, but i know would never happen or would happen as harmattan step 5 and no support for n9, every one buys new N10 and than Nokia ditching it in 2 months after release |
| 20:23.53 | RST38h | and 2) push lumias with new cell contracts, almost for free |
| 20:24.03 | tehdely | from what i've heard, you'll be able to upgrade newer WP7.5 handsets to WP8 |
| 20:24.08 | tehdely | but don't quote me on it |
| 20:24.18 | RST38h | Again, this saves certain managers inside Nokia, letting them say that they "moved so-many Lumias last moth" |
| 20:24.29 | RST38h | but it does not bring company any money |
| 20:25.05 | ZogG_laptop | RST38h: read twit, so guy in Russia heard sellers advising not to buy Lumia coz of high returns =) |
| 20:25.29 | ZogG_laptop | RST38h: i don't like Lumia, but would take even 10 if it's for free =) |
| 20:26.31 | RST38h | ZogG: I have one |
| 20:26.36 | RST38h | ZogG: You wouldn't. |
| 20:27.25 | ZogG_laptop | RST38h: than send me yours |
| 20:29.20 | itsnotabigtruck | GeneralAntilles: hm? |
| 20:29.21 | Arkenoi | got ridiculous comment from android user today: "wow, what is the OS on your phone? it is has *so* fast UI!" |
| 20:29.25 | itsnotabigtruck | i signed up for one a while back |
| 20:29.43 | itsnotabigtruck | not sure if i have any kermaz yet from the forum |
| 20:29.57 | itsnotabigtruck | oh cool, it transferred, now i have 169 karma |
| 20:30.05 | Arkenoi | it is always nice to know there are people who feel even worse than we do |
| 20:30.23 | itsnotabigtruck | lol Arkenoi |
| 20:30.35 | itsnotabigtruck | btw tehdely RST38h: new inception ver out (0.1.1) |
| 20:30.52 | RST38h | yohoho thanks |
| 20:30.55 | itsnotabigtruck | which is a quick fix for the devmode update that arrived this morning |
| 20:31.13 | RST38h | so should I install devmode update first or the new inception? |
| 20:32.17 | itsnotabigtruck | RST38h: either works |
| 20:32.26 | itsnotabigtruck | the devmode update prevents enabling inception |
| 20:32.37 | itsnotabigtruck | if you already did that inception will keep working |
| 20:32.53 | RST38h | ah ok |
| 20:32.58 | itsnotabigtruck | (enabling = running pasiv) |
| 20:33.06 | Arkenoi | ah ok |
| 20:33.12 | itsnotabigtruck | also the way the update does that is by taking away your ability to chroot |
| 20:33.17 | Arkenoi | so it is good i already have inception done |
| 20:33.19 | itsnotabigtruck | so keep that in mind |
| 20:33.30 | itsnotabigtruck | of course with inception available that's not so much of a problem |
| 20:33.43 | itsnotabigtruck | but it's a shame nokia's created collateral damage with this |
| 20:34.52 | Arkenoi | so this update had the sole purpose to prevent inception, and failed anyways? sh*t. i wish nokia invested that resources in doing something *useful* for us, say, fixing tracker process |
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| 20:35.53 | Arkenoi | having half-unsupported platform and wasting resources struggling its own users, that's what i call moronic behavior |
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| 20:36.41 | itsnotabigtruck | heh |
| 20:36.56 | itsnotabigtruck | well, the update is part of PR1.3, in the past they've released updates to the ancillary stuff shortly before the actual OS |
| 20:37.12 | itsnotabigtruck | PR1.3 includes a number of fixes, not just inception stuff |
| 20:37.31 | itsnotabigtruck | but it definitely has some anti-inception tweaks |
| 20:38.02 | mankeli | i wonder if anything else is affected by this recent change |
| 20:39.27 | Arkenoi | i wonder if we ever get tracker-store fixed |
| 20:39.37 | Arkenoi | the bug is still open |
| 20:39.47 | itsnotabigtruck | is the buggy tracker code open source? |
| 20:39.48 | itsnotabigtruck | tracker itself is |
| 20:39.58 | itsnotabigtruck | might be able to fix it and put it into a CSSU-type thing |
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| 20:47.05 | jonni | Arkenoi: what tracker store bug? |
| 20:48.37 | Arkenoi | https://harmattan-bugs.nokia.com/show_bug.cgi?id=245 |
| 20:48.39 | Arkenoi | this one |
| 20:48.42 | _MeeGoBot_ | Bug 245 maj, ---, ---, ext-risto.lahti, REOP, CPU 100% tracker contacts merge |
| 20:49.02 | Arkenoi | until it is fixed there is no chance for me to have a sane address book |
| 20:49.18 | ZogG_laptop | is it only me or there is that annoying email downloads/sync bug and stuck internet connection bug in PR1.2 . coz sometimes i get timeouts - i close all apps but i can see connection is used for a while |
| 20:51.08 | GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, are you registered on maemo.org? We use maemo.org usernames on mwkn.net to generate links to their userpages. |
| 20:52.45 | ZogG_laptop | GeneralAntilles: btw any plans on redesinging site? |
| 20:53.08 | ZogG_laptop | oh, btw do you have option to submit news over web? |
| 20:53.40 | Arkenoi | i think it could be wise to withhold inception update for a while, warn users not to install developer mode update, wait for pr1.3 to be sure there are no other surprises and then issue inception update.. otherwise there is a chance we would need another hack after 1.3 :-) |
| 20:53.44 | itsnotabigtruck | GeneralAntilles: yeah, it's, unsurprisingly, itsnotabigtruck |
| 20:54.03 | itsnotabigtruck | Arkenoi: i already released 0.1.1 |
| 20:54.12 | itsnotabigtruck | also, 0.1.1 specifically uses an exploit that's definitely already fixed |
| 20:54.31 | itsnotabigtruck | that's the entire point, it's a stopgap between now and the real update to inception (which is coming out later) |
| 20:54.50 | jonni | Arkenoi: internal bugzilla says fixed on contacts merge, so might be that nobody just bothers to update public statuses. |
| 20:55.22 | Arkenoi | jonni, it was said to be fixed in 1.2, but actually it was not so i reopened it :-( |
| 20:55.55 | jonni | then you can only hope that 1.3 merges contacts right |
| 20:56.27 | ZogG_laptop | Arkenoi: you can pray =) |
| 20:56.36 | ZogG_laptop | and maybe your prays would be heard |
| 20:56.50 | itsnotabigtruck | what's the relevant package? |
| 20:57.17 | Arkenoi | wonders if there will be ota to 1.3 and if it will leave opensh intact :-) |
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| 20:58.40 | itsnotabigtruck | Arkenoi: for the former, of course |
| 20:58.50 | itsnotabigtruck | for the latter, guess we'll have to find out |
| 20:59.40 | Arkenoi | feels sooo symbian with that stupid aegis |
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| 21:07.39 | gabriel9 | guys and girls, is there some tutorial for tabbed interface? |
| 21:08.17 | gabriel9 | and should i use initialPage with tabbed interface |
| 21:11.59 | ZogG_laptop | tabbed interfacE? |
| 21:12.25 | gabriel9 | window with tabs: on toolbar i have tab1, tab2 etc |
| 21:12.38 | gabriel9 | and they show tabs(windows) |
| 21:12.51 | gabriel9 | pardon me, i meant pages |
| 21:12.53 | gabriel9 | :) |
| 21:13.45 | ZogG_laptop | oh |
| 21:14.08 | gabriel9 | we need more tutorials :/ |
| 21:15.39 | javispedro | who was it that was working with gtk+ on harmattan? |
| 21:17.13 | itsnotabigtruck | gabriel9: get inception 0.1.1 |
| 21:17.20 | itsnotabigtruck | as to the gtk+, no idea :( |
| 21:17.44 | gabriel9 | i had it installed, but still did not use it :/ |
| 21:19.29 | gabriel9 | when i finish this project i will have more time, and finally finish all plans with N9 |
| 21:20.52 | GeneralAntilles | ZogG_laptop, redesigning mwkn.net? |
| 21:21.10 | GeneralAntilles | itsnotabigtruck, huh, wasn't coming up on google. |
| 21:21.13 | itsnotabigtruck | gabriel9: well, load up opensh and aegisctl |
| 21:22.19 | ZogG_laptop | GeneralAntilles: yes |
| 21:22.26 | ZogG_laptop | gabriel9: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-components-symbian/qml-page.html |
| 21:22.33 | GeneralAntilles | ZogG_laptop, Tim did a new design, I started integrating it. |
| 21:22.43 | GeneralAntilles | But it's in limbo right now until one of us finds time to finish integrating it. |
| 21:23.05 | gabriel9 | i'm sorry, i http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/qt-components/qt-components-meego-pagestackwindow.html?tab=3&q=PageStackWindow |
| 21:23.18 | itsnotabigtruck | and do something involving mountpoints, kernel modules, vpns, the notification led, chroot environments, global filesystem write access, setuid/gid, signon credentials, aegis-certman certificates, ... |
| 21:23.20 | itsnotabigtruck | all of the above :p |
| 21:23.38 | ZogG_laptop | GeneralAntilles: good |
| 21:23.42 | gabriel9 | heh, i will :) |
| 21:23.43 | ZogG_laptop | thnks |
| 21:24.27 | gabriel9 | will N9 upgrade to QT5 ? |
| 21:24.46 | ZogG_laptop | gabriel9: there is repo but officially not likely |
| 21:25.17 | ZogG_laptop | unleast nokia would decide to make other qt5 phone and use n9 as test platform(logicaly) |
| 21:25.18 | gabriel9 | that nokia don't know what they have: QT and GNU/Linux kernel |
| 21:25.36 | gabriel9 | and with that two they can do anything |
| 21:26.04 | gabriel9 | i'm no expert in Linux or QT but i see how much potential is there |
| 21:26.20 | *** join/#harmattan twredcgga (~vtfchfbbc@79.114.240.52) |
| 21:26.27 | ZogG_laptop | too little too late |
| 21:26.49 | itsnotabigtruck | it would be nice if one of the gui file managers added full filesystem access support through inception |
| 21:27.04 | gabriel9 | that would be nice |
| 21:27.06 | itsnotabigtruck | provide normal access by default, provide an option to activate root access and prompt for the root password |
| 21:27.10 | ZogG_laptop | i hope it would be more promoted with rasberry and playbook support =) |
| 21:27.22 | gabriel9 | anyone have rasberry? |
| 21:27.25 | itsnotabigtruck | thus enabling the dac_override capability and ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL |
| 21:27.41 | itsnotabigtruck | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3h8ZnXLsRg |
| 21:27.49 | ZogG_laptop | itsnotabigtruck: i think filebox had it for maemo, talk to dev. he may do it |
| 21:27.58 | gabriel9 | nice, you play ME :) |
| 21:28.09 | itsnotabigtruck | nah, though i ought to |
| 21:28.24 | gabriel9 | we need to port ME to N9 XD |
| 21:28.28 | itsnotabigtruck | i need to pick up me1&2 when they go cheap on sale again |
| 21:28.42 | itsnotabigtruck | that said, EA is teh evil, and also i already have enough unplayed rpgs queued up |
| 21:28.47 | gabriel9 | well you can always buy used |
| 21:28.59 | ZogG_laptop | ME? |
| 21:29.02 | itsnotabigtruck | i game on the pc, used games don't really exist |
| 21:29.02 | gabriel9 | and yes, EA is pure shit |
| 21:29.17 | gabriel9 | Mass Effect |
| 21:29.19 | itsnotabigtruck | but steam sale prices are cheaper than anything for consoles ever |
| 21:29.27 | ZogG_laptop | dont you enjoy real golf |
| 21:29.33 | itsnotabigtruck | re raspberry pi...pretty much no one does |
| 21:29.38 | itsnotabigtruck | at this point it's vaporware |
| 21:29.39 | gabriel9 | i don't know i buy used games from some dudes |
| 21:29.53 | itsnotabigtruck | i mean, it exists, but lead times these days are on the order of 4 to 6 months from what i heard |
| 21:29.57 | javispedro | itsnotabigtruck: used to think the same, but they have already promised shipping starts tomorrow |
| 21:30.05 | *** join/#harmattan liar (~liar@83.175.83.185) |
| 21:30.14 | gabriel9 | 4-6 months, omg, they ship it from Mars |
| 21:30.15 | ZogG_laptop | i don't play on PC i have PS3 with few games |
| 21:30.28 | gabriel9 | i have XBOX360 and PC |
| 21:30.36 | gabriel9 | but, i like more PX |
| 21:30.42 | gabriel9 | PC |
| 21:30.44 | javispedro | actually, "your Raspberry Pis are arriving tomorrow" |
| 21:30.47 | javispedro | https://twitter.com/#!/Raspberry_Pi |
| 21:30.49 | ZogG_laptop | worldwide? |
| 21:31.05 | itsnotabigtruck | filebox is closed source :( |
| 21:31.17 | itsnotabigtruck | also the UI is suffering from font problems |
| 21:31.34 | ZogG_laptop | itsnotabigtruck: there are 2 normal filemanagers on N( check second one |
| 21:31.40 | itsnotabigtruck | http://n9-apps.com/app-images/filebox_screen1_f3t7imkl33z5_portrait.png < if your app uses that font, it's not OK |
| 21:32.06 | gabriel9 | well i use terminal for files |
| 21:32.13 | itsnotabigtruck | file manager (beta) seems no longer to be developed and it got pulled from ovi for some reason |
| 21:32.23 | itsnotabigtruck | i'm not sure there's any others |
| 21:32.45 | gabriel9 | if i learn how to create windows and pages i will create one :D |
| 21:33.24 | gabriel9 | offtopic: did anyone see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_H3uWLW3N4 |
| 21:33.40 | gabriel9 | ME 3 endings, i did not play it but people says it sucks |
| 21:33.52 | ZogG_laptop | where i even can order raspberry? |
| 21:34.25 | gabriel9 | they use third party companies for that |
| 21:34.39 | gabriel9 | i have links on the job :/ |
| 21:34.45 | *** join/#harmattan bipt (~bpt@cpe-071-070-253-241.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 21:34.47 | ZogG_laptop | where are worldwide sales avilable? |
| 21:35.20 | gabriel9 | twitt them :) |
| 21:35.51 | ZogG_laptop | i can't tweet anyone who doesn't follow me |
| 21:36.11 | gabriel9 | use the force: @ |
| 21:36.25 | ZogG_laptop | they can't see my msgs man |
| 21:36.50 | itsnotabigtruck | they can |
| 21:36.57 | itsnotabigtruck | but they won't necessarily pay any attention to them |
| 21:37.14 | itsnotabigtruck | but this seems like a mundane question, why would you tweet them about that |
| 21:37.15 | ZogG_laptop | no they can i have private account |
| 21:37.18 | itsnotabigtruck | take the initiative and find it yourself |
| 21:37.37 | itsnotabigtruck | and make your twitter account non-private, private twitter defeats the entire point |
| 21:38.00 | itsnotabigtruck | that said i kinda dislike twitter for that very reason, it's turned into something entirely about broadcasting stuff to people |
| 21:38.04 | ZogG_laptop | no it's not |
| 21:38.16 | itsnotabigtruck | twitter is more like TV than IM |
| 21:38.28 | ZogG_laptop | that's the point |
| 21:38.41 | ZogG_laptop | i don't want everyone to see shit i write |
| 21:38.55 | itsnotabigtruck | no, originally it was about talking about stuff you're doing with your friends, now it's about celebrities being about to blast out what they're doing |
| 21:39.03 | itsnotabigtruck | without having to be arsed to read anything they get back |
| 21:39.08 | itsnotabigtruck | it's one-way communication |
| 21:39.11 | itsnotabigtruck | and that's bad |
| 21:39.21 | ZogG_laptop | thats true |
| 21:39.25 | ZogG_laptop | anyway night for now |
| 21:39.54 | itsnotabigtruck | are there any file managers besides those 2? |
| 21:45.46 | *** join/#harmattan risca_ (~risca@wi-secure-3075.cc.umanitoba.ca) |
| 21:47.53 | bipt | how is the n9 / meego harmattan wrt software freedom? |
| 21:48.32 | bipt | i know that some applications are non-free; what about the rest of the system? and are there repositories of free software available (like f-droid)? |
| 21:52.54 | *** join/#harmattan faenil (~faenil@dynamic-adsl-78-13-126-179.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 21:54.03 | rzr | bipt, yes i manage a repo of all opensource software |
| 21:54.15 | rzr | bipt, there are many other repos too |
| 21:56.43 | bipt | rzr, how about the kernel, drivers, etc.? for example, would it be theoretically possible to do a community edition without non-free nokia apps? |
| 21:57.06 | rzr | yes you're looking for nemo mobile |
| 21:57.09 | bipt | i've read a bit about alternative OSes (nemo mobile, nitdroid) but it's not entirely clear to me what their status is |
| 21:57.24 | rzr | nitdroid is in early stage |
| 21:57.32 | rzr | but it ships the unfree gapps |
| 22:03.02 | itsnotabigtruck | i'll never understand "Free Software" fanaticism |
| 22:03.18 | itsnotabigtruck | the ability to customize the system is nice, and unfortunately many of the packages one would want to customize are closed source |
| 22:03.45 | itsnotabigtruck | but not that many people actually appear to care about that, they only want open source on philosophical grounds |
| 22:04.04 | javispedro | suddenly grows a stallman beard |
| 22:04.10 | itsnotabigtruck | anyway, bipt: in general, core system stuff is open source, GUI stuff is not |
| 22:04.18 | GeneralAntilles | There's nothing wrong with either pragmatism or purism per-se. |
| 22:04.20 | itsnotabigtruck | there's a few core system things that are closed source, like cellular services daemon |
| 22:04.33 | itsnotabigtruck | and there's a few gui things that are open source like the settings app |
| 22:04.41 | itsnotabigtruck | but that rule mostly holds |
| 22:04.54 | GeneralAntilles | But if you're not willing to stick to principles then it's unlikely that change will ever come. |
| 22:04.57 | itsnotabigtruck | you can download an iso image with all the open source packages (in theory) in pr1.2 |
| 22:05.22 | itsnotabigtruck | as for repos of open source packages, well, apps for meego sort of aimed for that goal |
| 22:05.22 | rzr | itsnotabigtruck> i'll never understand "Free Software" fanaticism |
| 22:05.41 | itsnotabigtruck | unfortunately very few devs are adopting it, even if they release their software as oss |
| 22:05.42 | rzr | well i think we should care more of that |
| 22:05.49 | javispedro | or change will come, but in the wrong direction (e.g. harmattan being actually more closed than fremantle, if counted by num of packages) |
| 22:06.12 | itsnotabigtruck | part of the problem seems to be a significant degree of complexity + few people are passionate enough to get through that complexity (which really isn't that bad) |
| 22:06.21 | itsnotabigtruck | when ovi store and/or tmo posts are "good enough" |
| 22:06.33 | itsnotabigtruck | also apps for meego has some severe bugs and usability issues so that isn't helping |
| 22:06.47 | GeneralAntilles | javispedro, is there a Cool New Version of sowatch available that's more awesome than the one I have from a few months ago? |
| 22:07.00 | rzr | what about pr1.3 news ? |
| 22:07.27 | javispedro | GeneralAntilles: nope |
| 22:07.35 | GeneralAntilles | javispedro, suck! |
| 22:07.58 | itsnotabigtruck | speaking of that javispedro: what happened to putting sowatch and whatnot in afm |
| 22:08.10 | javispedro | GeneralAntilles: though with the uncool version you can do very cool things, I had hacked some speedometer & odometer |
| 22:08.20 | itsnotabigtruck | i didn't even hear about it until very recently because it was only visible in a forgotten FMC thread |
| 22:08.26 | itsnotabigtruck | that got bumped the other day |
| 22:08.33 | *** join/#harmattan aquarius (~aquarius@cpc5-dudl10-2-0-cust29.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 22:09.21 | javispedro | as I said on that bump, I think it misses a UI before AFM |
| 22:09.21 | DocScrutinizer | is amazed about javispedro's self control |
| 22:10.04 | itsnotabigtruck | who says it has to have a UI? |
| 22:10.38 | javispedro | the shitload of mails I get asking me how to get this to work, turning out they put MY watch's MAC in the config file instead of theirs |
| 22:10.49 | itsnotabigtruck | heh |
| 22:11.13 | itsnotabigtruck | ok, fair enough |
| 22:11.25 | itsnotabigtruck | might be a good idea to post a TMO thread though since FMC is, for all intents and purposes, dead |
| 22:11.27 | javispedro | I had even implemented a IPC protocol based on qtmobility's service fw and a trivial UI |
| 22:11.57 | javispedro | but it turned out qtmobility servicefw is unusable, as it crashes when you try to pass anything slightly complex, like a QVariantMap |
| 22:12.16 | javispedro | spent like a few weeks trying to debug that because I had not the PR1.2 source for qt-mob.. |
| 22:12.56 | itsnotabigtruck | heh |
| 22:13.25 | javispedro | also, instead of reusing the nice qtdbus wrappers and marshallers, they also just qdatastream << everything and pass a dbus array of bytes, a _sickness_ that is pretty much common to a lot of harmattan components |
| 22:13.42 | javispedro | (but not maliit, I must thank mikhas for that...) |
| 22:14.02 | javispedro | (mostly because I promised him I would do that, but didn't =) ) |
| 22:14.04 | bipt | itsnotabigtruck, i also want free software for security reasons (avoiding stuff like carrier iq) |
| 22:15.54 | javispedro | GeneralAntilles: as usual, the PR1.3 will now come tomorrow, a day after the release of MWKN =) |
| 22:15.57 | bipt | it sounds like meego harmattan is about as free as android (*all* phones require some non-free drivers afaict), so i may get an n9 and put up with the non-free components for the time being |
| 22:16.17 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: (sickness) sure, that's exactly the spirit of maemo since ever. Keep in as opaque as possible - *our* receivers _know_ how to deal with this byte dump |
| 22:16.22 | itsnotabigtruck | bipt: well, way more of the android UI is open source |
| 22:16.36 | itsnotabigtruck | android phones in practice do often come with a lot more antifeatures than harmattan |
| 22:16.44 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: see missing introspection on virtually all maemo stuff |
| 22:16.44 | rm_work | ah man, i should probably upgrade out of the beta firmware that shipped on the N950 >_> |
| 22:16.52 | rm_work | still never even went to PR1.2 |
| 22:16.52 | bipt | itsnotabigtruck, does nemo mobile not provide alternatives yet? |
| 22:16.54 | itsnotabigtruck | but harmattan does have some dodgy stuff, liek sending out an SMS when you first boot up with a SIM |
| 22:17.10 | bipt | for core functionality like phone calls, sms, camera |
| 22:17.19 | itsnotabigtruck | and sending your imei and/or imsi to nokia and remembering it together with your nokia account |
| 22:17.31 | itsnotabigtruck | and forcing you to log into a nokia account for certain apps that have no business requiring that |
| 22:17.51 | itsnotabigtruck | afaik nemo isn't a real alternative and never will be |
| 22:17.53 | rm_work | you can kill the SMS by touching some "cherry" file on the filesystem, no? |
| 22:18.04 | itsnotabigtruck | however nitdroid might become one soon, then you're back to android though |
| 22:18.09 | javispedro | ? |
| 22:18.20 | javispedro | mer is more than an alternative, specially if you consider nitdroid one |
| 22:18.30 | javispedro | because nitdroid basically _reuses_ the mer telephony stack |
| 22:18.36 | rm_work | is Mer known as Nemo now? |
| 22:18.37 | rzr | ofono |
| 22:18.48 | itsnotabigtruck | afaik mer = core os, nemo = gui stuff for mer |
| 22:18.52 | itsnotabigtruck | both stem off the meego work |
| 22:18.58 | rm_work | ah |
| 22:18.59 | itsnotabigtruck | mer has active development because it's going into that kde spark tablet |
| 22:19.07 | bipt | there is also SHR but they use FSO and haven't ported anything to n9 yet afaict |
| 22:19.11 | itsnotabigtruck | nemo is "let's go continue meego!" and it's not going anywhere and has no apps |
| 22:19.13 | rm_work | is Stskeeps still involved with Mer? |
| 22:19.40 | javispedro | itsnotabigtruck: has the same apps as harmattan |
| 22:19.45 | javispedro | still none, but hey :) |
| 22:19.50 | itsnotabigtruck | lol |
| 22:20.22 | itsnotabigtruck | that's the thing though, harmattan has some rather top notch built-in apps |
| 22:20.28 | faenil | itsnotabigtruck, since veskuh stopped working for nemo there has been a drastic decrease in commitment :( |
| 22:20.30 | itsnotabigtruck | closed source :( but functional |
| 22:20.39 | itsnotabigtruck | nemo requires an impossible amount of work replacing all thaty |
| 22:20.47 | faenil | i.e since Nokia stopped supporting nemo |
| 22:21.19 | DocScrutinizer | bipt: (SHR porting to N9) highly unlikely this will ever happen |
| 22:21.20 | itsnotabigtruck | that's not good...though i wasn't aware nokia was supporting it in the first place, since a lot of the work is basically re-engineering harmattan |
| 22:21.34 | itsnotabigtruck | if they wanted to support nemo why didn't they open source the gui apps they're abandoning with harmattan anyway |
| 22:21.59 | faenil | itsnotabigtruck, afaik there was only veskuh working on it from Nokia |
| 22:22.09 | faenil | and he's not in Nokia anymore |
| 22:22.15 | DocScrutinizer | bipt: and what do you mean by "BUT they use fso..."? |
| 22:22.22 | faenil | since then, Nemo's chat is 2% |
| 22:22.32 | itsnotabigtruck | well, that's not good to hear |
| 22:22.41 | faenil | I coded that little simple image viewer for Nemo, don't know if you're tried it |
| 22:22.44 | itsnotabigtruck | as much as i was just talking down nemo, if it did turn into a real alternative that would be awesome |
| 22:22.56 | faenil | but stopped working on it when I saw the env was quiet |
| 22:23.04 | faenil | you've* |
| 22:23.08 | bipt | DocScrutinizer, i mean i assume that's part of the reason it's nontrivial to port |
| 22:23.15 | faenil | itsnotabigtruck, and I agree |
| 22:23.17 | rzr | do u have an idea on how many users installed nemo ? |
| 22:23.25 | faenil | nope... |
| 22:24.38 | GeneralAntilles | javispedro, I blame Jaffa. |
| 22:25.19 | faenil | I really like Nemo because I like the fact that if you don't like an app or you want to add something, you just take the code and modify it |
| 22:25.51 | faenil | the idea was to replace all apps with qml ones |
| 22:26.08 | faenil | w00t coded a file manager |
| 22:26.33 | faenil | someone coded qml calendar, I did that (sort of a) image viewer |
| 22:27.05 | faenil | but there is a strong need :) anyone who wants to spend some of his time coding those apps? :) |
| 22:27.17 | javispedro | I hate GUIs |
| 22:27.25 | rzr | i'll have to rebuild that text editor too |
| 22:27.26 | javispedro | *developing |
| 22:27.32 | GeneralAntilles | But GUIs have nothing but good things to say about you. |
| 22:27.35 | javispedro | And QML has done nothing in that regard sadly |
| 22:28.05 | faenil | javispedro, what do you mean? |
| 22:28.06 | rzr | qml is good for writing portable linux drivers ... |
| 22:28.10 | itsnotabigtruck | lol |
| 22:28.11 | faenil | lol |
| 22:28.16 | rzr | =-) |
| 22:28.23 | javispedro | rzr: wait a few years and we will see javascript drivers =) |
| 22:28.48 | rzr | i read that google is doing some kind of crap |
| 22:28.49 | javispedro | faenil: that I still think of writing UIs as pain |
| 22:28.53 | rzr | for printers |
| 22:29.02 | rzr | or scanners |
| 22:29.12 | javispedro | faenil: even when using QML (not saying it is the bad direction) |
| 22:29.25 | rzr | before the page get scanned the whole book is clouded on google disks |
| 22:30.51 | faenil | javispedro, qml1 has some limitation, but it's a nice thing... |
| 22:31.02 | faenil | I think the problem is having someone create graphics with photoshop or something |
| 22:32.21 | itsnotabigtruck | what do you mean |
| 22:32.34 | javispedro | faenil: have you seen the meegotouch control panel "declarative" thing? |
| 22:33.07 | faenil | javispedro, nope, only used "crossplatform" qml |
| 22:33.20 | javispedro | actually, they call it declarative, but its not qml |
| 22:33.31 | faenil | I see... |
| 22:33.40 | javispedro | (looking for the link...) |
| 22:33.43 | faenil | :) |
| 22:33.45 | javispedro | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/platform-api-reference/xml/daily-docs/libduicontrolpanel/declarativeplugins.html |
| 22:34.13 | javispedro | that is now a true declarative UI language :) |
| 22:34.24 | javispedro | sadly, it is very, very, very constrained and not generic purpose |
| 22:36.11 | faenil | how is that better than qml? |
| 22:38.37 | javispedro | not saying it is better, because it is not general purpose -- and thus it is unfair to compare |
| 22:39.10 | javispedro | but some day there shall be a truly declarative language that can actually work like this for more cases |
| 22:39.39 | faenil | javispedro, but you like it more it seems... |
| 22:40.37 | javispedro | it is extremely portable, little verbose, very easy to learn and to code for, will be natively themed no matter what the platform is, and needs no gigantic ScriptEngine/V8 runtime |
| 22:41.36 | faenil | not that little verbose :D |
| 22:42.08 | javispedro | touché, XML is to be avoided, QML got that right :) ) |
| 22:42.23 | faenil | :) |
| 22:43.28 | faenil | I find qml to be very good, the problem is it still lacks lots of components, and it sometimes behaves in weird ways... |
| 22:44.11 | faenil | like, how the hell is it possible that there is no GestureArea (which is an "experimental" component) and no Touch or TapArea ?? |
| 22:44.38 | faenil | I mean, there's no way to recognize a double tap! |
| 22:44.42 | *** join/#harmattan gabriel9 (~gabriel9@139-70-246-188-bl.cable.dyn.broadband.blic.net) |
| 22:44.45 | javispedro | meh |
| 22:44.47 | faenil | you have to do that yourself! |
| 22:45.07 | faenil | doubleClick will only work if you hit in the same spot, which rarely happens when tapping |
| 22:45.14 | javispedro | and no way to have a Row that turns into a column when portrait either, and to center stuff on a Grid cell you have to wrap your items into other items.. |
| 22:45.28 | javispedro | I could go on all day with nitpickings =) |
| 22:45.38 | faenil | :) |
| 22:46.25 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/swcu050g/swcu050g.pdf p.848 |
| 22:46.28 | faenil | you could actually code a component that does the row/column thing easily :) |
| 22:46.32 | DocScrutinizer | seems to su |
| 22:46.36 | DocScrutinizer | err ECHAN |
| 22:46.39 | javispedro | yep :) |
| 22:52.04 | faenil | javispedro, so how's the SSD? :) |
| 22:52.32 | javispedro | well, working well so far :) |
| 22:52.48 | javispedro | I can still faintly hear something that resembles the hard disk drive noise and that is clearly correlated with HDD activity though... |
| 22:52.58 | faenil | aahahah |
| 22:53.02 | javispedro | either I'm getting crazy or it does make a faint noise |
| 22:53.08 | faenil | XD |
| 23:07.03 | itsnotabigtruck | javispedro: maybe it's power usage related |
| 23:07.19 | itsnotabigtruck | a lot of laptops have dodgy power circuitry that generates noise under load |
| 23:07.54 | javispedro | (or lack of load) |
| 23:08.09 | javispedro | but that is usually a buzzing, mosquito like sound |
| 23:08.11 | itsnotabigtruck | yeah, that too |
| 23:08.16 | ieatlint | could also be the system bus... i've had motherboards where it generated enough interference that speakers and headphones would play a slight whine at times |
| 23:08.25 | ieatlint | directly correlated to my hdd or network use |
| 23:08.27 | itsnotabigtruck | fwiw i've heard no noise from my t400 with intel 320 inside |
| 23:08.37 | itsnotabigtruck | except fan related |
| 23:08.42 | javispedro | ieatlint: intriguing |
| 23:09.01 | ieatlint | annoying, actually |
| 23:09.22 | ieatlint | if the speakers/headphones were playing music or anything you never heard it.. but otherwise.. |
| 23:09.23 | itsnotabigtruck | i'm glad i got the 160 gig...i'm already down to 40 gigs free |
| 23:09.24 | *** join/#harmattan phako (~phako@www.webstreams.de) |
| 23:09.34 | faenil | javispedro, ieatlint it's a known issue of integrated audiocards :) |
| 23:09.48 | ieatlint | faenil: i'm not surprised somehow :) |
| 23:09.55 | itsnotabigtruck | *it's a known issue of badly integrated audio chips |
| 23:10.04 | itsnotabigtruck | it means they screwed up and there's crosstalk or something |
| 23:10.05 | javispedro | it's not a whining, more like a rattling noise, it sounds actually very much like a HDD head |
| 23:10.06 | ieatlint | i suppose it could be power and not system bus.. somehow i assumed system bus, although i don't have a coherent reason why now |
| 23:10.07 | itsnotabigtruck | integrated audio doesn't have to suck |
| 23:10.14 | itsnotabigtruck | it just often does |
| 23:10.15 | *** join/#harmattan ab (~ab@a88-115-216-155.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 23:10.15 | *** join/#harmattan ab (~ab@pdpc/supporter/professional/ab) |
| 23:10.43 | faenil | itsnotabigtruck, it does on highend motherboards as well... |
| 23:10.52 | itsnotabigtruck | btw faenil ieatlint: inception 0.1.1 out, upgrade if you've installed today's developer mode update |
| 23:11.06 | faenil | lol |
| 23:11.22 | ieatlint | will look at it later... i'm stuck going to a marketing event tonight |
| 23:11.26 | itsnotabigtruck | it's a quick fix to avert the removal of chroot access from unsigned apps that came with that update |
| 23:23.44 | itsnotabigtruck | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JJKC6otXxeU#t=170s |
| 23:30.28 | itsnotabigtruck | ~inception |
| 23:30.28 | infobot | <a href="http://inception.davepedu.com/">BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH</a>, or how you own your phone (see #inception): https://endno.de/~itsnotabigtruck/inception/ |
| 23:34.12 | *** join/#harmattan faenil (~faenil@78.13.126.179) |
| 23:46.02 | itsnotabigtruck | wow, it got really quiet really quickly |
| 23:50.42 | faenil | :) |
| 23:51.01 | *** join/#harmattan pawky|2 (~pawky@c80-217-75-20.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 23:54.26 | itsnotabigtruck | faenil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JJKC6otXxeU#t=170s |
| 23:59.55 | faenil | itsnotabigtruck, what's that piece about? |
