| 00:00.13 | japh | oh you mean that. that's not related to mplayer... unless maybe -stop-xscreensaver works |
| 00:00.23 | japh | else my guess would be that's because of DPMS |
| 00:00.36 | mato__ | I know it's not related to mplayer. |
| 00:00.49 | mato__ | I just was wondering if there's a setting or something for it. |
| 00:00.52 | mato__ | DPMS? |
| 00:01.24 | japh | I did this when I had a similar problem :p https://github.com/trapd00r/dontbeahero |
| 00:01.56 | japh | but if you look around a bit there's probably a gconf key you can edit |
| 00:08.02 | mato__ | I'm not really sure what should I be looking for. |
| 00:09.14 | japh | gconftool-2 -R / |grep -Ei display |
| 00:09.23 | japh | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:09.31 | japh | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:09.34 | japh | etc |
| 00:11.17 | mato__ | I found it. But what can I do? |
| 00:13.36 | japh | set the key to something more appropriate |
| 00:15.51 | mato__ | How can I edit it? |
| 00:18.02 | mato__ | And I'm not sure what does the 3 mean. It's time but I'm not sure how long time. |
| 00:19.22 | japh | s probably |
| 00:19.39 | japh | I don't know, the dbus interface is horribly for configuration |
| 00:20.00 | japh | I'm installing xset now, see if it works to turn off dpms with it and it'd be fine |
| 00:22.02 | japh | server does not have extension for dpms option |
| 00:22.09 | japh | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:23.05 | mato__ | Nokia had a great system here which needs some improvements still and it changed to some Windows Phone. What a bad decision. |
| 00:23.24 | japh | I think xset s off seems to do it |
| 00:24.02 | itsnotabigtruck | what's up |
| 00:24.03 | mato__ | How to get xset? |
| 00:24.43 | japh | in the repo....... |
| 00:24.51 | itsnotabigtruck | mato__: well, the argument is that they never had a chance of positioning meego as a serious competitor to the iphone and android |
| 00:25.09 | mato__ | apt-cache search xset gave me nothing. |
| 00:25.14 | itsnotabigtruck | and since ios isn't for sale, and they didn't want to be another android oem |
| 00:25.20 | itsnotabigtruck | the only possibility left was wp |
| 00:25.31 | itsnotabigtruck | clearly in retrospect that isn't working that well |
| 00:25.57 | itsnotabigtruck | the real issue is that they only even started on a world class mobile os years after it was too late |
| 00:26.01 | mato__ | I'd have tried to make MeeGo work. Why wouldn't it have as good chances as anything else. |
| 00:26.15 | japh | However the following packages replace it: x11-xserver-utils |
| 00:26.16 | japh | E: Package xset has no installation candidate |
| 00:26.30 | itsnotabigtruck | well, i'm counting "started" as when they decided to push maemo as phone os and not an "internet tablet" os |
| 00:27.04 | itsnotabigtruck | and because apps are everything, and even if nokia put its weight behind harmattan there's no way it would have an app situation rivaling even wp7 |
| 00:27.07 | itsnotabigtruck | let alone android |
| 00:27.40 | itsnotabigtruck | remember that the modern smartphone is, to most people, a delivery vehicle for apps |
| 00:27.44 | mato__ | I'm not sure how do I get xset. |
| 00:27.49 | japh | I think xset s 9999 9999;xset s noblank; xset s noexpose; xset s off work |
| 00:28.07 | itsnotabigtruck | btw this isn't going to help your mpeg problem, but get inception |
| 00:28.20 | mato__ | I tried apt-get install x11-serever-utils and it told me it's only installable from other sources. |
| 00:28.34 | japh | okay |
| 00:30.46 | itsnotabigtruck | also, any reason you can't just play your file with video-suite |
| 00:31.05 | mato__ | video-suite, you mean the standard video-player? |
| 00:31.19 | mato__ | To that answer would be because of no support for the format. |
| 00:31.20 | itsnotabigtruck | yeah |
| 00:31.47 | itsnotabigtruck | well, one obvious solution is to convert, another is to find a gstreamer plugin |
| 00:31.54 | japh | nothing works with that piece of shit |
| 00:31.55 | itsnotabigtruck | note that video playback without dsp assistance is going to suck |
| 00:32.07 | itsnotabigtruck | so you're way better off trying to convert to something the dsp likes |
| 00:32.19 | itsnotabigtruck | than trying to decode on the cpu with ported software |
| 00:32.22 | mato__ | I tried converting but all the programs I found sucked. |
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| 00:32.34 | mato__ | There could be some programs for Windows sure, but I'm using Ubuntu. |
| 00:32.38 | itsnotabigtruck | handbrake? |
| 00:32.41 | japh | ffmpeg? |
| 00:33.07 | japh | ffmpeg -i foo.mpg foo.mkv |
| 00:33.09 | itsnotabigtruck | video-suite is definitely picky about video formats but you can convert to an h.264 it can play |
| 00:33.41 | japh | suggesting that as a solution? :/ come on |
| 00:34.28 | itsnotabigtruck | well, doing some awkward terminal hack to software-decode a video with no gui at all doesn't feel like a solution |
| 00:34.56 | japh | ? |
| 00:35.18 | japh | I wouldn't want to have to convert a video before I can watch it |
| 00:35.25 | japh | at least for me that takes literally forever |
| 00:36.03 | itsnotabigtruck | literally >_> |
| 00:36.15 | mato__ | That's the reason I'd like to watch these videos with a program that supports the format. |
| 00:36.19 | itsnotabigtruck | no such thing as literally forever :p |
| 00:36.32 | japh | :( |
| 00:37.48 | itsnotabigtruck | btw which codec are these files? |
| 00:38.07 | itsnotabigtruck | maybe you can convert the container format only without transcoding the video |
| 00:38.12 | mato__ | MPEG. I'm not sure what exactly. But I guess I could look it up. |
| 00:38.19 | itsnotabigtruck | there's a bunch of different mpegs |
| 00:38.24 | mato__ | I know. |
| 00:38.37 | itsnotabigtruck | vlc on your pc might be able to tell you |
| 00:39.07 | japh | or ffprobe --show-streams |
| 00:41.02 | mato__ | It seems like VLC can convert this stuff? |
| 00:41.30 | itsnotabigtruck | vlc can convert stuff? |
| 00:41.36 | itsnotabigtruck | anyway, just find out what codec it is |
| 00:41.45 | mato__ | I found Convert/Save on the menu. |
| 00:41.47 | itsnotabigtruck | i bet it's some kind of mpeg-2 |
| 00:41.50 | rzr | yes vlc can do everything |
| 00:41.59 | mato__ | I think it might be mpeg-2. |
| 00:42.09 | rzr | btw itsnotabigtruck any comments on today news ? |
| 00:42.15 | itsnotabigtruck | rzr: which news is that |
| 00:42.19 | itsnotabigtruck | so and so taking over meego? |
| 00:42.20 | rzr | the news ! |
| 00:42.30 | rzr | yes |
| 00:43.06 | itsnotabigtruck | meh, not getting my hopes up |
| 00:43.12 | itsnotabigtruck | but we'll see if they produce anything cool |
| 00:43.14 | rzr | lets hope this aventure got support of nokia |
| 00:43.42 | rzr | like if nokia cant do a such project w/ a exclusivity contract ... |
| 00:43.55 | rzr | but a spinoff can do what cant be done inside |
| 00:45.51 | mato__ | I don't really know what MPEG is it. I don't know how to look it up and my VLC is converting it so I wouldn't like to stop that. But I'm pretty sure it's mpeg-2, it's recorded with MythTV backend and I think that gives mpeg-2. |
| 00:46.14 | rzr | i donno many mpeg2 encoder |
| 00:46.25 | rzr | mpeg ts ? |
| 00:46.41 | rzr | mplayer -identify will tell |
| 00:46.49 | rzr | there is also mediainfo package |
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| 00:48.29 | mato__ | I found something. FFmpeg MPEG-2 |
| 00:50.31 | mato__ | Now looking at the clock. Perhaps I should be sleeping, not doing something like this at 4 in the morning can't go so well. |
| 00:54.22 | mato__ | So I'm guessing that there's no help from knowing what MPEG the video is, because I have no idea what that would help. And I'm guessing there's no way to prevent the screen from locking without getting deep into the system. |
| 00:57.18 | itsnotabigtruck | mato__: mpeg = a standards group that's responsible for a number of video codecs |
| 00:57.55 | itsnotabigtruck | it looks like there's mpeg 1, mpeg 2, and two different kinds of mpeg 4 (simple profile and h.264) |
| 00:58.26 | mato__ | It's MPEG 2. That doesn't help, does it? |
| 00:59.53 | itsnotabigtruck | mato__: nope :( |
| 00:59.58 | itsnotabigtruck | looks like it only supports the two mpeg 4s |
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| 01:02.43 | rzr | there are 2 mpeg2 profile a least |
| 01:02.50 | rzr | ts = transport stream |
| 01:02.58 | rzr | used on digital tv |
| 01:03.12 | rzr | and the other one |
| 01:03.33 | mato__ | I guess it must be ts then. After all this stuff came from digital TV. |
| 01:03.53 | rzr | ok then you just need to remux it |
| 01:04.07 | mato__ | Remux? |
| 01:04.25 | rzr | yes :) |
| 01:04.35 | mato__ | Could you explain that to me? |
| 01:04.46 | rzr | is like taking the data out and put it back into an other container |
| 01:04.59 | mato__ | And what do I get from that? |
| 01:05.09 | rzr | u can play a bit with avidemux |
| 01:05.33 | rzr | but reencoding to theora .ogv is good for freedom |
| 01:05.50 | rzr | mato__, are u using linux ? |
| 01:06.21 | mato__ | Well, I can already play it so I'd like to keep it how it already is. I just hate that the phone locks up all the time. |
| 01:07.03 | mato__ | Yeah. |
| 01:08.17 | rzr | well try to view it w/ mplayer |
| 01:08.19 | rzr | or vlc |
| 01:08.30 | rzr | and then port those apps to phone |
| 01:08.35 | rzr | brb |
| 01:08.59 | mato__ | I can view it with Mplayer and VLC and I already have those on my phone. Except that they are not made by me and VLC isn't so great. |
| 01:09.03 | mato__ | But Mplayer is good. |
| 01:09.11 | mato__ | It just locks up my screen all the time. |
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| 08:30.18 | cityLights | ok, I just noticed Makrygiannis left nokia, and it seems no more meego team there |
| 08:30.32 | cityLights | does anyone know where he is working now? |
| 08:43.10 | dm8tbr | cloudberry |
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| 09:06.49 | cityLights | its like a dropbox clone - right? |
| 09:07.39 | Stskeeps | cloudberrytec |
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| 10:42.45 | frals | i dont get why it made so huge news that the people officially left nokia now from the meego team |
| 10:42.59 | frals | its been known for ages that it was the last day |
| 10:43.39 | Stskeeps | frals, i think the phrasing from people assisted that.. but you know media |
| 10:43.54 | frals | yeah |
| 10:44.05 | Stskeeps | i'm surprised there were even people beyond subcontracted maintaining teams left |
| 10:45.11 | frals | well, not sure how much general population knows but im quite sure everyone was relieved of their work duties quite a while back |
| 10:45.23 | frals | <3 finnish legalislation and nokias social policies |
| 10:45.35 | Stskeeps | yeah |
| 10:45.47 | Stskeeps | impres |
| 10:45.59 | Stskeeps | sive wave soitris managed to create, too |
| 10:46.30 | Stskeeps | really shows that people arent satisfied with current offerings |
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| 10:48.45 | Aard | frals: what are you doing nowadays? |
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| 10:51.08 | frals | Aard: n9 maintenance until november |
| 10:51.13 | frals | after that.. who knows |
| 10:51.19 | Aard | ah, yes, you mentioned that |
| 10:51.26 | Aard | send us your CV? ;) |
| 10:52.10 | frals | might end up doing that ;) |
| 10:52.40 | Stskeeps | careers@jollamobile.com |
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| 11:06.41 | Lava_Croft | just wait |
| 11:06.57 | Lava_Croft | a decade from now, all the nerds will talk about how they all had Maemo devices |
| 11:07.01 | Lava_Croft | even tho they never had |
| 11:07.13 | Lava_Croft | and they will all talk about how good it was to be relatively free from the walled garden |
| 11:07.18 | Lava_Croft | even tho they all had iphones |
| 11:07.38 | Lava_Croft | same logic applies to movies, computer games, whatever |
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| 11:20.45 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: ping |
| 11:20.54 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: yes? |
| 11:21.35 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: i have few questions regarding Jolla nad if you can answer it would be nice |
| 11:22.09 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: are you planing to use QtSDK for apps? or QtSDK fork or something similiuar |
| 11:22.11 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: I can try, though I can't answer anything not beeing answered by our press release or twitter statements already |
| 11:22.12 | ZogG_laptop | ? |
| 11:23.19 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: and how hard compability of current harmattan and jolla would be? i mean would it be hard to port apps? |
| 11:23.37 | Aard | Qt will be supported |
| 11:24.48 | ZogG_laptop | Qt is not QtSDK, i mean QtCreator as IDE for developing apps and maybe Qemu and deploying on phone |
| 11:25.07 | Aard | the amount of work for porting will depend on the kind of app you're trying to port. it'll be a lot easier than moving from n900 to n9 ;) |
| 11:25.19 | ZogG_laptop | As well as "Qt supported" means it wouldn't be primary framework? |
| 11:26.03 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: easy because of qml? or MTF is preferable? |
| 11:26.10 | Aard | follow development of mer and nemo, and you can make guesses ;) |
| 11:26.47 | Stskeeps | qml preffered |
| 11:26.49 | Aard | MTF is dead, legacy codebase, in maintenance state. |
| 11:27.07 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: though MohammadAG proved that it can work faster =P |
| 11:27.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | and for sure quite a number of widgets are waaaay nicer in MTF |
| 11:27.46 | ZogG_laptop | Aard, Stskeeps but still the question of QtSDK and QtCreator is unclear =\ |
| 11:27.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | buzzword date picker, time picker |
| 11:27.52 | Aard | that might be in some cases, but the MTF codebase is unmaintainable, imo (that's my position, not jollas) |
| 11:28.34 | Stskeeps | ZogG_laptop: people use qtcreator with mer |
| 11:28.44 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: you can always fork and work on it, qml is nice to involve new devs, while mtf i think still is richer than qml =) |
| 11:28.48 | Aard | DocScrutinizer05: the picker widgets are nokia assets which are not opensource. |
| 11:28.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know :-S |
| 11:29.36 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: I've seen the effort put on MTF in nokia. keeping it working would require quite some manpower. they made lot's of broken design decisions |
| 11:29.55 | ZogG_laptop | Stskeeps: the question of not using, as i think for Qt you can always use it, the question of integration of development, for example i'm as noob try to write simple app with qml and i do test on N9 by simple deploy button in QtCreator |
| 11:30.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | just a sequel of a very popular rant of mine "slotmachine time/datepicker is braindead and evil" |
| 11:30.49 | ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer05: Aard the timepicker and datepicker rewritten and opensource btw by one of my friends =P |
| 11:31.19 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: you will be able to do easy development for the device (after all, we don't want to do hard development all the time until we release something ;)) |
| 11:31.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | others claimed they get fired when they miss half of a meeting due to concentrating on time/datepicker slotmachine to enter the next meeting date |
| 11:31.28 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: oh, I missed that. is it in nemo? |
| 11:32.05 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: http://va-sorokin.blogspot.co.il/2012/02/presentation-of-meego-harmattan-native.html |
| 11:32.53 | Aard | oh, so he did it in qml. cool. |
| 11:33.43 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: and i have request, if porting N9 apps is easy, wouldn't be right to encourage people now to develop for N9? It may take you time to release device so for now you and N9 users can benefit if you encourage companies and people to develop =) |
| 11:35.39 | dm8tbr | make them develop for Qt5 on N9 :) |
| 11:35.49 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: we need to check advantages/disadvantages of that. people have different opinions of 'easy', so doing something like this can easily have a negative effect when releasing the device |
| 11:35.54 | dm8tbr | wasn't there a workshop at Akademy? |
| 11:36.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi dm8tbr! |
| 11:36.45 | dm8tbr | hi DocScrutinizer05 |
| 11:37.20 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: btw russian people are interested in your company future in Russia (i'm not living there but read forums), so as well this guy and other from Cordova making their Qt podcasts. I may tell them to contact you or somebody to interview or write record something about Jolla for Russian communities if you want |
| 11:37.33 | jabis | well if the device is MeeGo driven - then at least a packaging issue will emerge, as well as other lib dependencies and so on and so on, so I'd wait for a proper device before encouraging people to go crazy with nyners :) |
| 11:38.06 | dm8tbr | I'm sure Aard's wife could help with that ;) |
| 11:38.09 | Aard | ZogG_laptop: oh, that's interesting. can you message me links? |
| 11:38.29 | Aard | dm8tbr: she chose this weekend to go on a trip, and be unreachable for me. very bad planning on her side :/ |
| 11:38.39 | dm8tbr | oic |
| 11:38.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
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| 11:39.09 | jabis | wives - you can't live with them - nor with them - when they have their periods, that is |
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| 11:44.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | Aard: (slotmachine timepicker) in the early days of linux, there was a general notion of "we don't imitate windows to become as good as this crap, we already are better by doing things different than windows and we don't plan to go for inferior". Nowadays I seem to detect the opposite notion regarding both windows-isms in gnome/kde as well as all mobile OS and toolkits try to mimic iPhone, not matter how crappy the apple concept |
| 11:45.16 | azeem | cue fvwm95 |
| 11:45.22 | azeem | and icewm |
| 11:45.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | well fvwm95 has it in the name already ;-P |
| 11:47.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly think we should start another emancipation movement, forget about iPhone, except for bad example of how we don't want to end |
| 11:49.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | the general idea of each app has its own "homedir" for storing projects hardcoded, so no way to use directory tree paradigm and to exchange project files between apps is another such deadend idiotic concept invented by either apple or microsoft, which I'd rather like to see on top of "Don't do it like that!" list on the office wall |
| 11:51.16 | azeem | why would you want to exchange project files between apps in general? |
| 11:51.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | in general? because no project is bound to a single tool ever |
| 11:52.09 | MohammadAG | I just hate qml ZogG_laptop |
| 11:52.09 | MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer05: A sandbox has its advantages and disadvantages |
| 11:52.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's hybris of devels to think their crappy tool is all you'll ever need or could use to mess with their project files |
| 11:52.59 | MohammadAG | Jollamobile seems interesting |
| 11:53.08 | MohammadAG | Wonder if the j is a j or a y |
| 11:53.34 | azeem | pronounciation-wise? |
| 11:53.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi MohammadAG |
| 11:54.18 | MohammadAG | Hi DocScrutinizer05 |
| 11:55.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | azeem: on a more concrete example - I want to store my email attachment to wherever I want, and often I want to decide if I open them with a pdfreader-A or pdfreader-B or maybe a hexeditor or a viruschecker, or acrobat editor |
| 11:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | very obvious example: text editor |
| 11:56.21 | azeem | the latter has nothing to do with exposing the file system tree to the user, but with the mime/whatever system IMO |
| 11:56.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I want to edit arbitrary files with such a text editor, not only my notes I take |
| 11:57.07 | azeem | DocScrutinizer05: that's fine, I am just not convinced this approach is obviously superior for most users than a document-centric approach |
| 11:57.22 | azeem | it is very natural to traditional GNU/Linux users, of course |
| 11:57.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | azeem: fs-tree concept got invented for a reason, and it's kinda odd to think you can come up with a better concept now, based on the rationale your users are too stupid to get the catch of fs-tree anyway |
| 11:58.28 | azeem | in 1970, you either had a text file or a binary |
| 11:58.43 | azeem | well, whatevr |
| 11:59.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | even msdos eventually appreciated usefulness of directories. otherwise we'd still store everything in C: |
| 12:00.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | the apps wouldn't care |
| 12:00.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | as they never get lost in a unstructured file heap |
| 12:00.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a mere convenience thing for users |
| 12:00.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | nowadays it's declared evil |
| 12:01.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is basically so extremely retro I fail to find the right words for it |
| 12:02.14 | jabis | MohammadAG: Jolla means a small boat in Finnish :) |
| 12:02.54 | jabis | MohammadAG: http://image.nettix.fi/extra/boatimg/373001_373100/jolla-muu-merkki-373020_b_a01abc3fd8888951.jpg |
| 12:05.26 | rzr | bada , mer, jolla |
| 12:05.42 | rzr | just titanic is missing |
| 12:07.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you want to hide fs-tree "complexity" from your poor brainless users? fine! make your app's filepicker dialog *open* in the app's hardcoded "homedir", with settings defaulting to "view: simplified". Missin accomplished. - - But don't *forbid* users with a bit of brain left over to sellect ".." and "view: detail" |
| 12:07.05 | Termana | jabis, I'm pretty sure the whole community can fit in that boat... :p |
| 12:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's clearly against general rule of maximum freedom for user |
| 12:07.41 | jabis | Termana: :D |
| 12:07.47 | MohammadAG | Tbh I like that I can delete one directory and be done with all the app's files |
| 12:08.02 | jabis | rzr, you forgot nemo X) |
| 12:08.19 | MohammadAG | Jabis: ah, I see |
| 12:08.34 | SpeedEvil | http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdayao/6119679702/ - first hit on flickr |
| 12:08.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG: so waht? |
| 12:08.42 | SpeedEvil | (for Jolla) |
| 12:08.42 | MohammadAG | In before the from a burning platform onto a boat jokes |
| 12:09.42 | MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer05: That's how iOS's sandbox works :p |
| 12:10.59 | MohammadAG | So is there a pr 1.3 for the N950? |
| 12:11.07 | Termana | MohammadAG, Jolla is a life boat. There is no room for Elop, he'll have to stay on the burning platform I'm afraid. It's a real shame... |
| 12:11.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG: so you suggest when you uninstall callendar, it should delete all your appointments (obviously), but as well all your emails with an appointment attached? all your SMs that sent or accepted an appointment? all contacts that have a birthday? |
| 12:11.19 | MohammadAG | Or do I have to wait for Israeli customs to clear the N9? |
| 12:11.26 | Termana | MohammadAG, no PR 1.3 for N950 that I've seen |
| 12:11.27 | azeem | Termana: I thought the CEO is always evacuated by helicopter |
| 12:11.34 | alterego | Elop is a fat yank, who looks, and sounds like a retard |
| 12:11.49 | alterego | I'm quite suprised he was ever employed by anyone. |
| 12:12.02 | Termana | alterego, Elop was born in Canada |
| 12:12.09 | MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer05: 3rd party calendar yes |
| 12:12.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG: when you delete nano texteditor, it should delete all the files you ever edited with nano? |
| 12:12.30 | MohammadAG | No, that's not an app |
| 12:12.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | bwahaha |
| 12:12.53 | MohammadAG | By app I mean app store app |
| 12:13.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | wtf is appstore?? |
| 12:13.09 | alterego | Termana: damnit, and I like Canada ... :/ |
| 12:13.14 | MohammadAG | Nokia store, app store, etc |
| 12:13.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | how is it relevant for this anyway? |
| 12:13.30 | MohammadAG | A compass app shouldn't read my files |
| 12:13.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | is the concept of a tool determined by the source I got it fromß |
| 12:13.44 | alterego | Can you two not talk about anything more interesting? |
| 12:14.02 | jabis | I wonder will Elop ever get a CEO position after his sound performance with NOK |
| 12:14.06 | MohammadAG | alterego: There's nothing more interesting :p |
| 12:14.21 | MohammadAG | jabis: MS |
| 12:14.50 | alterego | jabis: probably HTC next ;) |
| 12:15.05 | jabis | tho CEO is usually just a puppet for the chairmen, but nonetheless, possibly one of the most diving performance ever |
| 12:15.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | apple cleary noticed the "sandbox concept" (as you call it) been a dead end and rowed back |
| 12:15.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia thought "we'll show them how to do it right" |
| 12:16.41 | jabis | trashing a fortune 100 company should be awarded with Darwin - I think |
| 12:17.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, 10 bio flies can't be wrong, eat more err use windows! |
| 12:17.27 | Termana | DocScrutinizer, maybe you didn't mean what you just said but I'm not sure Apple has clearly noticed their sandboxing is a dead end. For OS X they are only tightening sandboxing and execution requirements and nothing has changed on iOS |
| 12:18.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | Termana: MohammadAGcalled the dedicated bunker for each app's project files "sandbox" |
| 12:18.29 | jabis | I wonder what the suicide rate is among the 10000 sacked |
| 12:18.46 | jabis | (+ subsidized companies now out of business) |
| 12:20.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | jabis: if I want iOS (lookalike) I get me an iPhone - I got a maemo device *because* it's quite different. Nokia - in other occasions - well been aware of this idea when they claimed "needed for differentiation" |
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| 12:20.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder why in some subjects they didn't see the use of differentiation |
| 12:22.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | jabis: oops I missed your first post - seems we're talking different topics |
| 12:23.57 | Termana | DocScrutinizer, right, because that's what it's called. No matter what you want to call it, I still don't understand why you think Apple has seen it as a dead end and certainly they haven't changed their position. |
| 12:23.59 | Termana | Unless you were merely expressing that you believe it's a dead end and not that Apple believes it to be |
| 12:24.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | Termana: well, that's what friends explained to me about their iPhones. I personally only once ever touched such a brick 'o shite |
| 12:25.04 | jabis | Doc, no worries :) - got NOK devices for same reasons - tho additional motivator was to support a national brand :) |
| 12:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | jabis: I thought you're suggesting me for darvin award ;-D |
| 12:26.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | for my trashing of Apple |
| 12:26.45 | jabis | nah - you're prolly not the one trashing a multi-billion brand all by yourself |
| 12:27.06 | jabis | by trashing - I mean really scrapping the company |
| 12:27.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | bashing/trashing, i'm not a native speaker |
| 12:27.19 | alterego | Most people that have a technical understanding and interest in platforms think iOS is shit |
| 12:27.33 | alterego | Unfortunately, most people aren't :) |
| 12:28.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | alterego: exactly. But then it's not a good rationale to mimic that shit, no? |
| 12:28.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | even poorly mimic it |
| 12:29.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | by only picking the bad parts and implementing them even inferior way than already bad original |
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| 12:31.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. file explorer of os-x. Yes it hides parts of fs-tree from user, just like maemo5-filepicker does. But then on a mac you can enter /etc/ to the address textbox and still access all you want. Unlike on N900 |
| 12:32.19 | MohammadAG | A |
| 12:32.42 | MohammadAG | alterego: IOS without a jailbreak is shit |
| 12:33.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and with it's shit with jailbreak ;-P |
| 12:33.15 | MohammadAG | I disagree |
| 12:33.28 | MohammadAG | Out of ios and android iOS clearly wins |
| 12:33.37 | MohammadAG | Out of sl |
| 12:33.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | quite possible |
| 12:33.47 | MohammadAG | All the rest, it wins in terms of apps only |
| 12:34.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all it's mainly the UI that sucks on apple, not so much the basic OS gear |
| 12:34.20 | MohammadAG | The ui isn't that bad |
| 12:34.32 | MohammadAG | UIKit is a sane toolkit, unlike qml |
| 12:34.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, the implementation of the upper layers I mean |
| 12:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | not the UX in general |
| 12:35.29 | MohammadAG | If iOS didn't have any restrictions, like certain apps could do certain things, it would've been the best os |
| 12:35.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I guess we are all aware qml is dalvik-reinvented |
| 12:36.06 | MohammadAG | I see it that way yeah |
| 12:36.50 | MohammadAG | I like how on ios you can use two fingers to scroll two panes for example |
| 12:36.57 | MohammadAG | I haven't seen that on any other ui toolkit |
| 12:37.18 | MohammadAG | You can normally scroll one viewport in android |
| 12:43.27 | jabis | what's the use-case for scrolling two panes on a mobile tho? |
| 12:43.47 | MohammadAG | Android runs on tablets, and so does ios :p |
| 12:44.16 | jabis | ridiculous screen resolutions usually destroy the accuracy - even with tablets |
| 12:44.52 | MohammadAG | Accuracy of what? The panes would ideally be wide enough to be easily scrolled |
| 12:45.02 | jabis | Mohammad, still - what's the use case? :) |
| 12:45.27 | jabis | accuracy of touch events |
| 12:45.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaaah yes |
| 12:45.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | accuracy of capacitive saussage-touch events |
| 12:45.59 | jabis | ye |
| 12:46.14 | MohammadAG | jabis: Well, there are use cases for it, but it shows how mature the ui toolkit is |
| 12:46.34 | MohammadAG | Whether you love or hate iOS, you can't deny the ui toolkit is mature |
| 12:47.19 | jabis | whether or not mature, it's mostly garbage still :) |
| 12:48.29 | jabis | I dislike developing for iOS eventho I have to (company uses iShit quite widely) |
| 12:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | MohammadAG: (certain apps could [not] do certain things) we already got acme aegis for that ;-P I honestly hope it gets binned in mer/jolla/nemop/whatyacallit |
| 12:49.25 | MohammadAG | Aegis is a nice concept |
| 12:49.31 | jabis | we can only hope Jolla wont sink x) |
| 12:49.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | like is nuclear fission |
| 12:49.40 | MohammadAG | It's configured badly |
| 12:49.41 | MohammadAG | And implemented in a half botched way |
| 12:49.46 | MohammadAG | No really |
| 12:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | extremely nice concept |
| 12:49.51 | MohammadAG | Aegis is nice |
| 12:50.05 | MohammadAG | But 1) devs should be able to switch it off |
| 12:50.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | YEP! |
| 12:50.14 | MohammadAG | 2) it should have finer tokens |
| 12:50.38 | jabis | concept shmoncept - it's so unfinished it only interferes at it's current maturity |
| 12:50.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | and 3) user possess root cert |
| 12:50.46 | MohammadAG | 3) tokens should be accepted/denied at user discretion, not source |
| 12:51.02 | MohammadAG | E.g |
| 12:51.23 | MohammadAG | This app would like to self destruct your phone, allow/deny? |
| 12:51.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm however 100% with jabis here |
| 12:51.34 | jabis | I disagree with user discretion - the source should be the validator, but user should control the source at his discretion |
| 12:52.15 | MohammadAG | Then allow me to make a source with my tokens |
| 12:52.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | who's owning the root cert is owning the device. For now Nokia owns the root cert(s) |
| 12:53.06 | jabis | apps shouldn't be allowed to do harmful things (pun intended), but user should be able to grant the application with harmful things in mind to go about it's business |
| 12:53.08 | MohammadAG | For example, in my currnt situation, I can't redistribute led-event-notifier in any repo |
| 12:53.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | in their eternal grace they allow users who paid for the device to run certain apps on it |
| 12:53.45 | jabis | ye - but that's source control - not app control |
| 12:54.07 | SpeedEvil | I somewhat disagree - an appstore that actually views the tokens, and talks with the author if they are not appropriate is probably sane. |
| 12:54.49 | SpeedEvil | For example - if you have a calculator, it never gets internet access, even if the author requested it - unless it says it in big letters why it needs it on the app description. |
| 12:54.54 | jabis | user should be able to sign their own sources, but root certs - I don't know... |
| 12:55.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | SpeedEvil: any concept that depends on such a "third party" appstore infra is fubar by design |
| 12:55.47 | SpeedEvil | While the user being able to view tokens is valuable - some third party that can provide a saane set of permissions isn't unreasonable. |
| 12:56.02 | SpeedEvil | that can sanity-check those permissions, rather. |
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| 12:56.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | user needs a way to define arbitrary "appstore" URLs/sources as valid and approved ones |
| 12:56.24 | SpeedEvil | And yes - installing only from the appstore is a fail. |
| 12:56.34 | MohammadAG | SpeedEvil: +1 |
| 12:56.40 | jabis | some portions of the device I wouldn't grant full access ever to anyone, even myself |
| 12:57.02 | SpeedEvil | Initially these are not important cases really. |
| 12:57.02 | MohammadAG | Tbh android does it best |
| 12:57.21 | SpeedEvil | It's not going to be a phone to give to your grandparents. |
| 12:57.25 | SpeedEvil | MohammadAG: I disagree. |
| 12:57.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | the way it's implemented now paegis is just doing one thing: disown user's device |
| 12:57.38 | SpeedEvil | MohammadAG: there is no vetting of credentials. |
| 12:57.43 | MohammadAG | Vetting? |
| 12:58.27 | SpeedEvil | MohammadAG: determining if the calculator app wanting to access the internet when it does not list any features that might want to do so, and does not say it does in the description is reasonable |
| 12:58.29 | SpeedEvil | For example. |
| 12:59.32 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. I wonder about exposing the credential list, and then letting users flag suspicious credentials. The dev could even explain per credential why it's needed. |
| 13:00.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's all based on the idea there's any instance (here: appstore) that knows better than *I* do what's acceptable and what's not, for any arbitrary app. An obvious brainfsck |
| 13:00.11 | SpeedEvil | It's not for you. |
| 13:00.45 | SpeedEvil | And I'd support the appstore having a place for unreviewed apps. |
| 13:00.50 | jabis | that's yet again via paradigm of app control not source control |
| 13:01.01 | jabis | if you control the sources - you control the device |
| 13:01.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | please define sources |
| 13:01.20 | jabis | "appstores" should suggest the credentials |
| 13:01.24 | SpeedEvil | jabis: Assuming you have the time, and understanding to vet the sources. |
| 13:01.46 | jabis | but not impose upon users to determine whether it's ok or not |
| 13:02.08 | SpeedEvil | I would want teh above store to be one - default - option on the phone, witht he ability to add other appstores that may have other policies, including no policy, and the ability to install apps from files or whatever. |
| 13:02.20 | jabis | if you grant "sources" / "appstores" certain credentials - you'll just get notified if apps use the credentials or not |
| 13:02.22 | SpeedEvil | This is less important initially, with skilled users. |
| 13:02.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | SpeedEvil: any infra / toolchain that breaks down whenever Nokia bites the dust is *EVIL* |
| 13:02.58 | jabis | yes |
| 13:03.25 | jabis | that's because you have no source control - but you have limited app control - now that's the base problem |
| 13:04.06 | jabis | you CAN'T control the set of credentials - tho you know OVI has a superset of user/developer cert - it's still limited per se |
| 13:06.12 | jabis | a sane control mechanism would restrict the source to a user defined subset |
| 13:07.00 | jabis | possibly multiple tiers of permissions |
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| 13:10.25 | jabis | thus a calculator app installed from a "malicious" source would never have the possibility to do it's malicious moves eventho installed and accepted by user stupidity |
| 13:10.51 | jabis | unless you mark the source as accepted |
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| 13:11.22 | SpeedEvil | The ability to add other stores, with different root keys, and the ability to install single packages as files means that a default appstore is benign. |
| 13:11.52 | SpeedEvil | A fixed appstore, even a well intentioned one without that is at best tollerable. |
| 13:12.12 | SpeedEvil | As it does indeed risk dying 3 years in. |
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| 13:58.32 | jonni | well with inception you can add your own custom root certs, so you can always make a rogue/community place to distribute the apps, if ovi store someday bites the dust. |
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| 14:01.43 | jabis | but inception is hack |
| 14:02.08 | jabis | the option should have been brought by the distributor :) |
| 14:02.44 | jabis | and I think inception adds unneccessary permissions to certain apps as well - so it's a security hole, but by design |
| 14:04.20 | jonni | yep, I'm just saying if distributor goes bankrupts someday, then community can just use some hole to install community rootcert and keep the device app distribution alive. |
| 14:05.34 | jabis | but mainstream users don't know how to leverage such an app - if ovi goes down - so will 80% of the users |
| 14:06.21 | SpeedEvil | jonni: Assuming there is a hole. |
| 14:06.46 | jonni | I dont see ovi going down for atleast for few years, and by then N9 is museum device anyways. |
| 14:06.54 | jonni | SpeedEvil: there is always a hole. |
| 14:07.04 | SpeedEvil | jonni: Relying on that is questionable. |
| 14:07.26 | SpeedEvil | As I've said in the past - the reason there is a hole is typically nobodies cared enough to get someone with a clue to audit the code. |
| 14:07.30 | SpeedEvil | code/design. |
| 14:08.45 | jonni | for harmattan you can rely on that there is always a hole :) |
| 14:08.49 | jabis | auditing a linux system as a whole is hardly possible x) |
| 14:09.19 | jabis | concept is open platform, so one can leverage nearly anything imaginable |
| 14:09.24 | SpeedEvil | jonni: sure |
| 14:09.40 | SpeedEvil | jabis: I mean - auditing the security chain for an aegis-alike. |
| 14:10.32 | jabis | well - you do realize that such an immature tool will always provide a way to escape, because if it would not, it would be useless to design a system with :) |
| 14:11.05 | pa | i have a mkv that is h264 708x480, what can i use to play it? |
| 14:11.18 | SpeedEvil | jabis: I mean vendor hostile escapes. |
| 14:11.21 | pa | mplayer cannot play it smoothly |
| 14:11.28 | pa | video-suite cannot open it |
| 14:11.40 | SpeedEvil | jabis: In the case of new open-source phone vendors, it's rather different. |
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| 14:11.55 | SpeedEvil | In principle you can transcode. |
| 14:12.08 | SpeedEvil | I've transcoded stuff on the phone before. |
| 14:12.10 | SpeedEvil | It's rather silly. |
| 14:12.24 | jonni | pa: convert to 856x480 base profile and you might get lucky |
| 14:12.36 | pa | ah you think it's not base profile |
| 14:12.37 | pa | hm |
| 14:12.39 | pa | might be |
| 14:12.41 | pa | thanks |
| 14:14.08 | jabis | SpeedEvil: well - I hope aegis doesn't get completely scrapped as it could be quite a magnificient tool - it just currently lacks ability to use it wisely |
| 14:14.21 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 14:14.30 | jabis | a security framework is something missing from all vendors |
| 14:14.38 | pa | does anybody have experience with such transcoding? like a one-liner command that does it, leaving audio tracks and all the rest in there |
| 14:14.40 | SpeedEvil | It's missing stuff. |
| 14:14.43 | jonni | aegis failed on the moment someone chose perl as dpkg wrapper, design otherwise was pretty nice. |
| 14:15.00 | SpeedEvil | Like finer granularities. |
| 14:15.08 | SpeedEvil | For example - 'same origin' internet connections. |
| 14:15.14 | SpeedEvil | Rather than general. |
| 14:15.50 | SpeedEvil | - so that highscores can only go to one site, say, if it wants to do that, rather than having to grant a game general internet permissions. |
| 14:15.55 | jabis | but you can't expect magic from shit that's been scrapped, generally x) |
| 14:16.03 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 14:16.24 | pa | SpeedEvil, i dont think that's a good idea |
| 14:16.32 | SpeedEvil | pa: Why not? |
| 14:16.33 | pa | one can do tricks anyway |
| 14:16.42 | SpeedEvil | pa: Sure. |
| 14:16.42 | user | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:16.55 | jabis | that went like in movies, user |
| 14:16.56 | virtuald | what do you mean with 'same origin'internet connections? |
| 14:17.16 | SpeedEvil | virtuald: Angrybirds would only be able to talk to rovio.com - nowhere else. |
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| 14:17.44 | jabis | I think we're back to the original point of source control vs app control |
| 14:18.15 | jabis | ~security by obscurity is the wrong way |
| 14:18.16 | infobot | jabis: okay |
| 14:18.57 | SpeedEvil | It's basically just another permission. And I'm not arguing for security by obscurity. Just that in principle, fine grained control is better than coarse grained. |
| 14:19.16 | virtuald | SpeedEvil: how do you know rovio.com is who you think it should be? |
| 14:19.34 | SpeedEvil | You don't. |
| 14:20.39 | SpeedEvil | But it's somewhat less of a risk if the site is hardcoded, and the permissions says 'this app can make internet connections to rovio.com' - rather than a general permission to access the internet. |
| 14:20.49 | SpeedEvil | (and yes, I know, this raises interesting DNS issues) |
| 14:21.06 | jabis | a game declaring the need for perms to use for ex. "internet" is by default a fail - source should be given perms for internet::domains::x with domains::x having a cert proving its authority - but that kind of control is restrictive |
| 14:21.41 | jabis | much like you declare DNS - if you have a proven auth - you should be able to control any and all traffic |
| 14:21.53 | SpeedEvil | Restrictive may be appropriate for a platform you want the tech illiterate to be able to use reaasonably safely. |
| 14:22.02 | pa | but i mean, what is the bottom line? is it "there is the need for a way to prevent malicious apps"? |
| 14:22.08 | jabis | as well as restricting access to x and y subnets |
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| 14:22.22 | SpeedEvil | It's probably not really a benefit at the initial stages, as it doesn't matter so much for educared users. |
| 14:22.23 | pa | or what other purpose does aegis serve? |
| 14:22.53 | jabis | app control becomes unnecessary when you introduce source control with user accepted certs/permissions toolkit |
| 14:22.57 | SpeedEvil | The only benefit aegis has in principle (in my mind) is the possible secure storage, and credential checking at the stores. |
| 14:23.09 | SpeedEvil | but neither is really well implemented |
| 14:23.26 | SpeedEvil | jabis: User accepted permissions work only with an educated, skilled userbase. |
| 14:23.42 | jabis | aegis owns your device - vs you owning a device that has a complete security framework :) |
| 14:23.43 | SpeedEvil | See android - wobbly boobs malware apps. |
| 14:24.13 | jabis | Speed, thus you need tiers of permission control - not app control |
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| 14:24.20 | SpeedEvil | A default secure store - if the user can add other stores, and even choose to install unverified packages doesn't take anything away. |
| 14:25.01 | jabis | you could have dozens of "app stores" with finer granularity of what apps can do in which "store" instead of a superset of perms for "store" and all apps can leverage given permissions |
| 14:25.22 | SpeedEvil | That seems somewhat messy. |
| 14:25.23 | jabis | one domain could house easily hundreds of "stores" |
| 14:25.37 | jabis | that IS source control |
| 14:26.18 | SpeedEvil | And yes, in principle 2 billion stores do get you 32 different bits of access control, I just question if that's useful. :) |
| 14:28.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | pa: aegis serves only one purpose: to deprive user from control over his own device. For *all* other usecases alleged to aegis there are already better tools and designs |
| 14:28.23 | jabis | it's by design more useful than controlling 1 app store with a superset of privileges housing billions of apps with the same creds |
| 14:28.49 | jabis | thus source control is limited to on/off |
| 14:29.38 | SpeedEvil | The design I'd be keen on would be all stores have all priveleges by default, and can choose to allow apps a subset of them. |
| 14:29.39 | jabis | and off means you're restriced to OVI which is beginning to be "deprecated" for its current purpose |
| 14:30.09 | SpeedEvil | And anyone can make a store by simply generating a key, and publicising it. |
| 14:30.56 | SpeedEvil | The stores can if they choose vet apps credentials, and only permit sane ones. |
| 14:31.02 | jabis | without the source control any and all apps with malicious intent can be delivered to any one "store" that hasn't got proper QA for code |
| 14:31.29 | SpeedEvil | Sure. |
| 14:31.31 | jabis | and then you end up like android play store |
| 14:31.38 | SpeedEvil | Not quite. |
| 14:31.59 | SpeedEvil | You end up with the situation where anyone can open an unsecure store - but that doesn't stop the default being more secure. |
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| 14:36.42 | jabis | well - we clearly have different views on the design choices for security :) pointless to argue ^^ |
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| 14:37.50 | jabis | DocScrutinizer05: btw your remark about aegis holds true only to its current immature revision :) |
| 14:39.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure you can improve virtually everything to a point where it actually meets/exceeds arbitrary requirements. The question is how much of your initial stuff is still untweaked when you get there |
| 14:39.12 | SpeedEvil | And it only holds true for educated users. |
| 14:40.42 | jabis | true, true - but the lack in codebase and implementation is what is making it "worse" than what it actually is intended |
| 14:41.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | the intention of the whole thing is still something I'm wondering about |
| 14:41.29 | jabis | well it holds true to uneducated users not getting the apps they'd like |
| 14:41.42 | jabis | as well as educated ones |
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| 14:44.34 | jabis | well I think that one needs a (working) security framework for such an open product |
| 14:45.28 | jabis | but as the titled framework - one needs to be able to control it - modify the behaviour |
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| 15:41.42 | heymaster | Where to store passwords on harmattan? |
| 15:45.47 | rigo | there is a private thing that is crypted, no? |
| 15:46.41 | rigo | BTW, big thanks guys. Backup? Drama? No! apt-get install rsync -> Done. <3 |
| 15:47.16 | heymaster | rigo: just password. On iPhone there is KeyChain to store passwords |
| 15:47.25 | rigo | if jollamobile gets out of the swamp, I'll be part of the party |
| 15:47.37 | rigo | heymaster: apt-get install keychain then |
| 15:47.49 | rigo | if you know what you're doing |
| 15:48.01 | rigo | it's just linux after all |
| 15:48.47 | heymaster | rigo: I'm coding app. Want to store password :) |
| 15:50.18 | rigo | yes, on N9 at least there is a private directory with cryptfs on it. There you can store things. Or you do the classic linux stuff |
| 15:50.33 | rigo | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:50.39 | jonni | heymaster: is you dont care about security you can just use QSettings, and if you want to encrypt it then aegisfs. |
| 15:51.06 | rigo | hey jonni, going jolla too? |
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| 15:54.57 | jonni | rigo: dont know, I sent my CV to Marc a week ago but no interview requests yet ;-) |
| 15:55.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonni: good luck! |
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| 16:12.59 | Namek | Hi, I'm trying to run an app at boot as "user" but it's runned as "nobody" my .conf points to an script exec /usr/bin/aegis-exec -s -u user -l "exec /opt/test/bin/test.sh" > /var/log/test.log 2>&1 in the script I print an string and also the current user and I get nobody, is there something that I'm missing? |
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| 16:19.22 | zx2c4 | any word on 1.3 for n950? |
| 16:23.36 | itsnotabigtruck | jesus, not more endless bitching about aegis |
| 16:24.05 | itsnotabigtruck | and "and I think inception adds unneccessary permissions to certain apps as well" |
| 16:24.08 | itsnotabigtruck | jabis: what do you mean? |
| 16:24.42 | itsnotabigtruck | inception doesn't add any permissions to anything except the utilities it comes with, by itself |
| 16:24.49 | zx2c4 | itsnotabigtruck, hey i was just reading aegeis source code |
| 16:25.02 | itsnotabigtruck | and apps that you install with 'incept' only get the permissions they specifically ask for |
| 16:25.12 | itsnotabigtruck | zx2c4: yeah? |
| 16:25.30 | zx2c4 | question -- i saw written various places that inception relies on an aegeis security vuln to break it? didn't realize this was how it worked. i then heard that 0.1 did it one way,a nd 0.2 does it a new way. what are the vulns it exploits exactly? |
| 16:26.00 | itsnotabigtruck | well, you can look at the source code and see |
| 16:26.10 | itsnotabigtruck | 0.1, 0.1.1, and 0.2 all use different privilege escalation flaws |
| 16:26.18 | itsnotabigtruck | nothing wrong with that, it was the only thing that can be done anyway |
| 16:26.24 | zx2c4 | where are the old tarballs |
| 16:26.40 | zx2c4 | exploit code is in pasiv, right? |
| 16:27.18 | itsnotabigtruck | not sure if they're anywhere convenient |
| 16:27.45 | zx2c4 | ahaha so |
| 16:27.48 | zx2c4 | the exploit is |
| 16:27.52 | zx2c4 | PERL5DB |
| 16:27.55 | zx2c4 | and using PERL5OPT |
| 16:27.57 | itsnotabigtruck | haha, yep |
| 16:27.57 | zx2c4 | well done |
| 16:28.01 | itsnotabigtruck | it's pretty hilarious |
| 16:28.09 | itsnotabigtruck | anyway, none of the exploits have any exploitability on normal linux systems |
| 16:28.10 | zx2c4 | yea thats absurdly simple |
| 16:28.25 | itsnotabigtruck | because they all rely on bugs in aegis code or openings to take over aegis code |
| 16:28.30 | itsnotabigtruck | that's trusted by the system |
| 16:28.32 | zx2c4 | so aegeis assumes that dpkg will only do nice trusted things? |
| 16:28.56 | zx2c4 | or do these env vars get picked up by some other ageis command? |
| 16:29.08 | itsnotabigtruck | dpkg with aegis is a perl script |
| 16:29.15 | itsnotabigtruck | not the normal debian dpkg |
| 16:29.15 | zx2c4 | oh. oh, god. oh. |
| 16:29.32 | itsnotabigtruck | and /usr/bin/dpkg is granted god credentials |
| 16:29.38 | zx2c4 | thats outrageous |
| 16:29.39 | itsnotabigtruck | as long as it isn't modified directly (the hash matches) |
| 16:29.52 | itsnotabigtruck | so you can't just add system("sh") at the top and run it |
| 16:29.55 | zx2c4 | so you probably can also play with perl include modules |
| 16:30.13 | zx2c4 | what were the previous priv esc you used? |
| 16:30.32 | itsnotabigtruck | 0.1.1 used some bug where said perl script granted credentials that weren't supposed to be granted |
| 16:30.39 | itsnotabigtruck | up to and including said "god credentials" |
| 16:31.41 | itsnotabigtruck | 0.1 used a chroot to cause one of two perl scripts trusted with maximum credentials to be executed with my exploit as the interpreter |
| 16:32.01 | zx2c4 | haha |
| 16:32.06 | zx2c4 | they fixed the chroot bug? |
| 16:32.20 | itsnotabigtruck | no but they put in a bunch of ancillary hacks that made it hard to exploit |
| 16:32.29 | zx2c4 | ahaha |
| 16:32.30 | itsnotabigtruck | generally all of the problems stem from aegis being designed around granting access out of thin air |
| 16:32.44 | itsnotabigtruck | rather than reducing access to only what's needed |
| 16:32.57 | itsnotabigtruck | that means *everything* needs to be designed with precision to avoid leaking access |
| 16:33.05 | zx2c4 | right |
| 16:33.07 | itsnotabigtruck | and there isn't much precision to be seen |
| 16:33.30 | zx2c4 | this kernel is old too |
| 16:33.51 | zx2c4 | have you audited the aegeis kernel module at all? |
| 16:34.05 | zx2c4 | wonder if there are some really attrocious things in that too |
| 16:35.29 | zx2c4 | /usr/bin/dpkg and /usr/bin/dpkg.real are ELF on my phone... |
| 16:39.09 | jabis | itsnotabigtruck: I meant that the tokens you add to local package (tcb) is over the top for most apps - and inception grants that to all local packages :) Inception is great as we have no alternative, and ariadne brings a bit security to the table, but I'd rather use source control instead of a hack in aegis |
| 16:40.48 | jabis | itsnotabigtruck: I dunno how much you read about the discussion, but I was expecting tools instead of "holes" in the framework itself, and not from community, but from the distributor :) |
| 16:41.33 | jabis | itsnotabigtruck: and I remain in gratitude for you, because of inception, no doubt ^^ |
| 16:41.58 | itsnotabigtruck | jabis: a 'local' package is a package that's been installed with the incept command |
| 16:42.06 | itsnotabigtruck | which prompts for your root password for confirmation |
| 16:42.45 | itsnotabigtruck | and only packages that are both a) installed through incept, and b) explicitly request tcb permission |
| 16:42.55 | jabis | yup - escalating tcb tokens for every and each one - tho they only get what they request, but it's permissive |
| 16:42.56 | itsnotabigtruck | actually obtain tcb permission |
| 16:43.12 | itsnotabigtruck | the assumption is that when you use incept, you know what you're doing |
| 16:43.41 | itsnotabigtruck | and all of this stuff is really pretty silly since an actual evil app could just copy in the exploit pasiv uses now and gain tcb access with no fuss |
| 16:44.14 | itsnotabigtruck | but i put a lot of attention into making sure inception 0.2 wouldn't open up any security issues on its own |
| 16:44.17 | jabis | yes yes - I understand that logic - but I only stated it is a hack - no real "consumer" would want to go thru with it :) |
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| 16:45.02 | itsnotabigtruck | you're right that it probably isn't appropriate for 'joe blow' |
| 16:45.35 | itsnotabigtruck | it is probably ok for anyone with a few brain cells, that wants to overclock/run terminal commands that require true root/etc. |
| 16:45.42 | jabis | that's why a source control works better than a token of trust for all apps :) |
| 16:45.59 | itsnotabigtruck | not sure what you mean by "source control" |
| 16:46.18 | itsnotabigtruck | and you might as well give up on nokia changing its tune, especially since there's no one left working there to change the tune |
| 16:46.32 | itsnotabigtruck | it was time to forget about that close to a year ago |
| 16:47.31 | jabis | source control ( com.nokia.maemo == superset of permissions) vs accept from non-trusted source == 4-5 additional permissions - key ingredients locked out |
| 16:47.49 | itsnotabigtruck | sorry if i'm being a little bit harsh, but your argument seems like a softer version of what some haters here have gone on and on and on about |
| 16:47.55 | jabis | and I was not talking about nokia - but of Jolla :) |
| 16:48.20 | jabis | and the need for a security framework and what aegis is and is supposed to be :) |
| 16:48.24 | jabis | all in general |
| 16:48.25 | itsnotabigtruck | certain individuals really seem to hate the idea of taking things into your own hands and hacking around irritating security measures |
| 16:48.33 | jabis | app control is futile vs source control :) |
| 16:48.54 | jabis | and source control should be in the hands of users |
| 16:48.56 | itsnotabigtruck | er, "source control" is the problem |
| 16:48.58 | jabis | app control not so much |
| 16:49.13 | jabis | well source == app privileges == fail |
| 16:49.21 | itsnotabigtruck | specifically nokia designing a system specifically enabling them to say that everyone else is controlled and they aren't |
| 16:49.27 | itsnotabigtruck | which is all "source control" is really good for |
| 16:49.40 | itsnotabigtruck | it's a pretty messy system that doesn't allow any sort of fine-grained access management |
| 16:49.49 | itsnotabigtruck | it ends up coming down to nokia vs not nokia |
| 16:49.50 | jabis | yes - that we all agreed on :) |
| 16:50.29 | rigo | apt-get update hangs at usr/bin/osa --packages |
| 16:50.30 | jabis | the question was should there be a security enforcement from distributor or should not - and if, why and how to acchieve etc |
| 16:51.06 | rigo | jabis, I think there is no single answer to that question |
| 16:51.17 | itsnotabigtruck | well, clearly if there is one, there needs to be a smooth way to reconfigure it or something like that |
| 16:51.23 | jabis | itsnotabigtruck: I commend aegis as an effort - not the end product that's totally screwy and misused and misdesigned, immature |
| 16:51.29 | itsnotabigtruck | especially because ios and android have captured the average joe crowd |
| 16:51.37 | itsnotabigtruck | anything else needs to cater to hackers as well as regular users |
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| 16:51.53 | rigo | to lax -> android - chaos too strict - dev-frustration |
| 16:52.18 | itsnotabigtruck | think of a phone as a pocket computer |
| 16:52.19 | rigo | so I think having two modes is the way out: |
| 16:52.26 | itsnotabigtruck | not a locked down terminal owned by everybody but the user |
| 16:52.29 | rigo | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:52.35 | rigo | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:52.38 | itsnotabigtruck | i like the idea of security, if it's security on MY BEHALF ONLY |
| 16:52.44 | rigo | chose between..... :) |
| 16:52.54 | itsnotabigtruck | when you guys talk about security, you aren't talking about that |
| 16:52.58 | itsnotabigtruck | which is what's intensely frustrating |
| 16:53.12 | jabis | well the 'joe blow' would like his credit card numbers and files safe as well :) |
| 16:53.22 | itsnotabigtruck | that's a false dichotomy |
| 16:53.42 | itsnotabigtruck | you don't have to seize the keys from the user's hand to make a system that keeps their data safe |
| 16:53.58 | rigo | itsnotabigtruck, I humbly disagree : Steve Jobs has locked down things to control the experience and to make the perfect device |
| 16:54.09 | rigo | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:54.31 | itsnotabigtruck | just because the iphone is successful doesn't mean that's why |
| 16:54.52 | itsnotabigtruck | steve jobs and apple were/are control freaks that want to dominate every facet of the product from manufacture to landfill |
| 16:55.14 | itsnotabigtruck | that isn't necessary to come out ahead |
| 16:55.19 | itsnotabigtruck | brb |
| 16:55.26 | rigo | but it doesn't mean it's mean either. That's why I argue for an open / closed mode depending on your needs and taste |
| 16:55.32 | jabis | I agree and disagree - and I'm not one of "you guys" I'm pondering the security framework as a tool - not a hindrance - both for hackers/developers point of view and the end user's :) |
| 16:56.32 | jabis | aegis === pieceofcrap at it's current, BUT nonetheless the only vendor provided (in)sane security measure ever tried |
| 16:57.16 | M4rtinK | sane, really ? :) |
| 16:57.17 | zx2c4 | iOS has code signing and a fairly restrictive sandbox... |
| 16:57.56 | zx2c4 | itsnotabigtruck, |
| 16:57.58 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.00 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.02 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.04 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.06 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.08 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.10 | zx2c4 | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:58.12 | zx2c4 | i cant believe you got your hands dirty with all this |
| 16:58.14 | zx2c4 | looks like such a headache |
| 16:58.29 | jabis | I disagree with the root certs being at hands of vendors, instead of the user - very much |
| 16:59.17 | jabis | M4rtinK: still talking about the tool itself - not it's current state (as mentioned several times :) |
| 17:00.00 | M4rtinK | jabis: yeah - but I think it is pretty unlikely it will ever be used properly |
| 17:00.11 | jabis | I hope Jolla will succeed and we'll see something more polished utilization |
| 17:01.51 | jabis | the thing totally lacking is user control over aegis - without hacks :) If you had one - you'd prolly be ok with it - it's just a signature and hashfile x) |
| 17:02.45 | M4rtinK | it is also funny that all the tokens are not presented to the user in any way :) |
| 17:04.07 | itsnotabigtruck | zx2c4: lol |
| 17:04.12 | itsnotabigtruck | yeah, error handling in c is super messy |
| 17:04.18 | zx2c4 | well, not just error handling |
| 17:04.20 | zx2c4 | but just |
| 17:04.23 | zx2c4 | all those aegeis functions |
| 17:04.29 | zx2c4 | and then above that you parse some awful format |
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| 17:04.46 | itsnotabigtruck | i don't think i did any parsing in the inception code... |
| 17:04.57 | itsnotabigtruck | unless you're talking about processing the command line arguments |
| 17:05.10 | itsnotabigtruck | probably could have used getopt or something like that but it would have ended up just as long and messy |
| 17:05.30 | zx2c4 | you parse bsd ar format |
| 17:05.34 | zx2c4 | in the pkgsigner |
| 17:09.00 | itsnotabigtruck | zx2c4: oh, whoops |
| 17:09.05 | itsnotabigtruck | forgot about that, it's been a long time since i wrote that |
| 17:09.11 | itsnotabigtruck | yeah, it's pretty gnarly |
| 17:09.33 | itsnotabigtruck | kind of ridiculous that the deb format is based on that (which is used by essentially nothing else) |
| 17:10.14 | azeem | static libraries are lumped together with ar, no? |
| 17:10.32 | jabis | hope you didn't get offended trucker ^^ |
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| 17:17.58 | itsnotabigtruck | off topic: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/598731 |
| 17:18.02 | itsnotabigtruck | jabis: nah, it's cool |
| 17:18.04 | itsnotabigtruck | azeem: yeah |
| 17:18.11 | itsnotabigtruck | however, using a slightly different ar format |
| 17:18.30 | itsnotabigtruck | and nothing besides static libraries and deb files use any kind of ar archive, afaik |
| 17:18.55 | azeem | .zip wasn't so popular in 92 |
| 17:19.17 | itsnotabigtruck | but what's really weird is that deb format contains tar archives inside an ar archive |
| 17:19.25 | itsnotabigtruck | they could have at least made it just one tar archive or something |
| 17:19.45 | azeem | it nicely seperates the metadata from the payload |
| 17:20.21 | azeem | and makes it possible to easily extend it in principle, without breaking everything |
| 17:20.44 | itsnotabigtruck | right, like what aegis does |
| 17:21.01 | itsnotabigtruck | what incept is doing is adding another ar archive member called _localsig at the end |
| 17:21.23 | azeem | AFAIK that's how package GPG signing works in Debian as well |
| 17:21.27 | itsnotabigtruck | which dpkg pulls back out and matches to the com.nokia.maemo/local source |
| 17:21.33 | azeem | except it's not officially supported |
| 17:21.38 | itsnotabigtruck | there was an attempt to do it that way but it never caught on |
| 17:21.42 | itsnotabigtruck | now it's for all intents and purposes dead |
| 17:21.46 | itsnotabigtruck | everybody uses apt signing instead |
| 17:22.00 | azeem | those are orthogonal, but yeah |
| 17:22.09 | itsnotabigtruck | well, not really, they're two different approaches to the same thing |
| 17:22.24 | azeem | well, ok |
| 17:22.26 | itsnotabigtruck | which is authentication of downloaded packages |
| 17:22.34 | itsnotabigtruck | which almost always come through apt |
| 17:22.49 | azeem | I'd argue the apt signing is authentication *before* downloading packafges |
| 17:22.49 | zx2c4 | any n950ers in here atm? |
| 17:22.50 | azeem | packages* |
| 17:23.22 | itsnotabigtruck | hmm? apt signing authenticates the release file, which authenticates the package list, which authenticates the package files |
| 17:23.33 | itsnotabigtruck | through sha hashes |
| 17:23.44 | azeem | right, but what do you do with a downloaded .deb? |
| 17:24.00 | itsnotabigtruck | nothing, but on a normal debian system, everything is almost always obtained through apt |
| 17:24.00 | azeem | no easy way to authenticate it AFAIK |
| 17:24.07 | azeem | that's where package signing might've jumped in |
| 17:24.10 | itsnotabigtruck | so apt signing is "good enough" |
| 17:24.14 | azeem | right |
| 17:24.16 | itsnotabigtruck | on debian you're not really supposed to just download a deb |
| 17:24.30 | itsnotabigtruck | now, that breaks down with a situation like harmattan |
| 17:24.40 | azeem | sure, I'm still doing it all the time anyway, though |
| 17:24.47 | itsnotabigtruck | but it seems nokia implemented its own solution for that with _x509sig, _gpgsig, and _localsig |
| 17:26.20 | zx2c4 | i wish nokia would just open source the platform |
| 17:26.30 | zx2c4 | it's dead anyway for them |
| 17:26.32 | zx2c4 | let us take it over |
| 17:27.13 | japh | zx2c4, yes |
| 17:27.31 | zx2c4 | can't some nokia dev at least leak it |
| 17:27.38 | zx2c4 | he's gonna be fired soon anyway |
| 17:27.59 | itsnotabigtruck | zx2c4: but if they leaked it, said dev might be fired AND sued |
| 17:28.15 | zx2c4 | yea. so i guess it'd have to be leaked carefully |
| 17:28.22 | itsnotabigtruck | they might be laying off half their employee base but they probably aren't laying off the lawyers |
| 17:28.30 | zx2c4 | haha |
| 17:28.47 | zx2c4 | why arent all the developers internally revolting and demanding it be open sourced? |
| 17:28.52 | zx2c4 | they know their days are numbered |
| 17:29.05 | zx2c4 | raise the red flag of nokia revolution |
| 17:29.14 | zx2c4 | off with elops head |
| 17:29.23 | zx2c4 | egalite libertie fraterntie of harmattan |
| 17:29.42 | azeem | the lawyers would form a circle around elop, and both remaining developers couldn't get at him |
| 17:29.57 | zx2c4 | we need a brutus! |
| 17:30.18 | Lava_Croft | keep blaming elop |
| 17:30.19 | azeem | besides, the meego team probably knew they were working on a partly proprietary platform when they signed up, so leaking it now would be quite illoyal |
| 17:30.26 | Lava_Croft | the people truly responsible are thankful |
| 17:30.43 | Lava_Croft | they sit on their fat paychecks while Elop gets to dodge all the tomatoes |
| 17:30.47 | azeem | disloyal* |
| 17:30.55 | zx2c4 | Lava_Croft, who do you think the conspirators are? |
| 17:31.25 | Lava_Croft | its not a conspiracy |
| 17:31.33 | Lava_Croft | its a case of criminally bad management |
| 17:31.36 | Lava_Croft | over the course of years and years |
| 17:31.52 | zx2c4 | clearly nokia never landed on the moon!!!!! |
| 17:31.52 | Lava_Croft | leading to a situation where an ex MS employee gets to run Nokia |
| 17:33.11 | zx2c4 | im so angry |
| 17:33.13 | zx2c4 | sigh |
| 17:33.16 | zx2c4 | ive got a spare n950 here |
| 17:33.20 | Lava_Croft | why anger |
| 17:33.20 | zx2c4 | maybe ill just put nitdroid on it |
| 17:34.43 | macmaN | zx2c4: why not contribute to nemo instead |
| 17:34.57 | alterego | Would be nice if you contributed to |
| 17:34.57 | Lava_Croft | yeah, what good does android do |
| 17:34.59 | zx2c4 | macmaN, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266543/ ? |
| 17:34.59 | Lava_Croft | or get us |
| 17:35.01 | alterego | Nemo/Mer |
| 17:35.12 | zx2c4 | oh, mr |
| 17:35.14 | zx2c4 | mer |
| 17:35.32 | alterego | zx2c4: what are your main interests and skillset? |
| 17:35.38 | macmaN | heh zx2c4 :> i thought nobody in #harmattan would not confuse that one |
| 17:35.51 | zx2c4 | :-D |
| 17:36.23 | alterego | zx2c4: are you end user? App developer? Systems integrator? Hardware adaptations? Platform development? |
| 17:36.26 | zx2c4 | alterego, on one hand, I'm a Qt developer for a company, on the other hand I'm a security researcher for another company. i also spend time futzing with distros. so my skill sets kind of all over the place |
| 17:36.55 | Lava_Croft | whats your forte |
| 17:37.02 | alterego | zx2c4: well that's great, I'm sure you'd be a valuable asset to the community if you're willing to get wet and dirty with us ;) |
| 17:37.14 | alterego | Find something you'd like to do, and do it :) |
| 17:37.30 | zx2c4 | Lava_Croft, dunno. i kind of learn what i need to learn to get a certain job done |
| 17:37.37 | Lava_Croft | yes, but everybody has his forte |
| 17:37.41 | Lava_Croft | the thing he is best at |
| 17:37.46 | Lava_Croft | with which he feels most at home |
| 17:38.02 | zx2c4 | alterego, well, what's going on with mer/nemo/whatever? what's the status? what's to be done? does it run on telephones? or is it still really in its infancy? |
| 17:38.10 | alterego | Lava_Croft: not sure, I have at least 3 or 4 specialist areas I like to contribute in ;) |
| 17:38.10 | zx2c4 | Lava_Croft, probably math |
| 17:38.14 | Lava_Croft | zx2c4: heard of Jolla Mobile? |
| 17:38.24 | Lava_Croft | alterego: yes, but theres always one thing thats closest to your heart:) |
| 17:38.25 | alterego | zx2c4: runs on N900/950/9 :) |
| 17:38.41 | zx2c4 | Lava_Croft, haha yea ive been newly motivated by it... |
| 17:38.42 | alterego | Lava_Croft: depends, if you're fine doing one thing, personally I get a bit bored and enjoy moving around. |
| 17:38.52 | Lava_Croft | thats not my point |
| 17:38.57 | alterego | Helps my productivity as it allows me to be more mobile when I get slightly stagnant. |
| 17:39.11 | zx2c4 | you think Jolla will make something decent? continue the dream? openmoko hasn't done much... |
| 17:39.14 | alterego | zx2c4: well, you could start by joining |
| 17:39.27 | alterego | Joining #mer, and maybe looking at the bugzilla? :) |
| 17:39.32 | Lava_Croft | at least mer has a good base |
| 17:39.41 | alterego | Test nemo on your device and find the bits you think are lacking and that you feel you can improve. :) |
| 17:39.50 | alterego | Lava_Croft: mer _is_ a good base ;) |
| 17:40.17 | Lava_Croft | that too |
| 17:40.24 | Lava_Croft | ditch yum |
| 17:40.28 | Lava_Croft | flees the scene |
| 17:40.34 | alterego | lol |
| 17:40.51 | zx2c4 | Lava_Croft, I mean... i do stuff like http://blog.zx2c4.com/749 but then i do stuff like http://blog.zx2c4.com/567 too, which is totally separate, so i dunno bout a forté |
| 17:41.16 | zx2c4 | alterego, so... nemo actually is capable of making calls and sms and its a real working platform? |
| 17:41.28 | Stskeeps | nemo can make calls and sms, yes |
| 17:41.32 | zx2c4 | s0weet |
| 17:41.43 | alterego | zx2c4: nemo has been able to make calls for a loooong time, I know I helped develop that area ;) |
| 17:42.01 | alterego | Back when nemo was MeeGo Community Edition ;) |
| 17:42.04 | Lava_Croft | nemo is basically the only living thing thats left in the world of 'free' mobile devices |
| 17:42.07 | Lava_Croft | and software |
| 17:42.12 | Stskeeps | alterego: speaking of which |
| 17:42.19 | Stskeeps | alterego: install nemo onto your n950 and test phonecalls... |
| 17:42.26 | alterego | Is it broken? :x |
| 17:42.28 | jabis | then again nemo is all over the place -.- |
| 17:42.42 | alterego | does a nemo build |
| 17:43.11 | alterego | Can we move this convo to #mer? Should be more on topic there. |
| 17:43.15 | alterego | Don't want to piss off DocScrutinizer05 :P |
| 17:43.22 | Lava_Croft | and thats easily accomplished! |
| 17:43.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ehß |
| 17:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ? |
| 17:44.17 | alterego | DocScrutinizer05: :P |
| 17:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not pissed by nemo discussions in here, as i'm generally not pissed by off topic as long as nobody complains |
| 17:44.51 | alterego | Sorry, I always remember MeeGo being a point of contention with you :P |
| 17:44.52 | Lava_Croft | my remark was more about the ease of pissing you off ;) |
| 17:45.00 | Lava_Croft | and alterego is right:) |
| 17:45.09 | Lava_Croft | but people get softer as they grow older! |
| 17:45.13 | Lava_Croft | more mellow;) |
| 17:45.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^.^ |
| 17:45.43 | jabis | I get more grumpy with the age |
| 17:46.12 | jabis | but I think being an entrepreneur for tenth year contributes to that x) |
| 17:47.15 | macmaN | hmm. i wonder i can have portage on mer |
| 17:47.19 | alterego | lol |
| 17:47.31 | alterego | macmaN: maybe chroot? :P |
| 17:47.33 | macmaN | well i can, with gentoo prefix |
| 17:47.41 | macmaN | but as system pkg mgr |
| 17:52.26 | heymaster | http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security/mssf-demo/trees/88d4fc9bdd57980ed0b828e907da6fc4ba7f4ad0 <<< I don't know if need to use only client or and daemon. |
| 17:53.50 | heymaster | I want to store passwords |
| 17:54.03 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: ping |
| 17:54.15 | Aard | pong |
| 17:54.25 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: btw one thing more wanted |
| 17:54.28 | *** join/#harmattan beford (~fernand0@unaffiliated/beford) |
| 17:54.51 | ZogG_laptop | one more thing i wanted to ask |
| 17:55.03 | ZogG_laptop | just one moment |
| 17:59.39 | beford | seeing comments from the store app are not working right? |
| 18:01.06 | beford | oh and thanks for your comment ZogG_laptop :p |
| 18:01.07 | *** join/#harmattan rcg (~rc@46.115.56.38) |
| 18:02.40 | *** join/#harmattan nemoVM (~nemoVM@stgt-5d840aaa.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 18:03.06 | nemoVM | damn alwazs get a black screen wehen using maalit in nemo/vm |
| 18:03.21 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: sorry just pinged you and phone called |
| 18:03.30 | ZogG_laptop | so i tried to type and talk but it didn't work well |
| 18:03.49 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: Stskeeps is there info how releases and updates would be on Jolla? |
| 18:04.13 | Aard | better than with harmattan, hopefully ;) |
| 18:04.14 | Stskeeps | ZogG_laptop: can't talk about that yet, sorry, please stand by |
| 18:04.26 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: i mean in maemo what was disappointing is some srs bugs were held till release update |
| 18:04.29 | *** join/#harmattan wicket64 (~wicket@81-86-240-143.dsl.pipex.com) |
| 18:04.30 | ZogG_laptop | and i think it's wrong thing |
| 18:05.05 | ZogG_laptop | Stskeeps: i meant not how often and so on, just this paticular thing ^ |
| 18:05.23 | Aard | yes, I (as in not speaking for jolla-I) agree. speaking for jolla I can't comment |
| 18:05.30 | ZogG_laptop | is it planned to release bug fixes only in small updates or even critical bugs would have wait? |
| 18:05.44 | ZogG_laptop | Aard: than i hope you push it up =) |
| 18:06.28 | alterego | I hope they go FOSS release quick release often. But it's very much up to how they want to work. |
| 18:06.37 | alterego | And they have to go through extensive testing procedures. |
| 18:06.46 | alterego | It's really not something that can be guessed at right now. |
| 18:06.47 | Stskeeps | well at least core part goes |
| 18:07.11 | alterego | Sure, but core wont be in charge of Jolla updates. |
| 18:07.19 | Stskeeps | sure |
| 18:10.05 | ZogG_laptop | than stable unstable model like in linux distro is welcome |
| 18:10.33 | alterego | ZogG_laptop: they also have to adhere to EU guidelines and international laws when it comes to the reliability of their software. |
| 18:10.57 | Stskeeps | what, you expect reliable software? i thought this was OSS ;) |
| 18:11.16 | alterego | We're talking about official distribution here. You'll hopefully be free to stay at the bleeding edge by using your device with the latest of the latest. But official updates have to be tested up to certain standards. |
| 18:11.22 | alterego | Very complicated rules ;) |
| 18:21.08 | ZogG_laptop | Stskeeps: if you want end user phone you can't be bleeding edge and stable =0) |
| 18:23.04 | ZogG_laptop | that's why i asked question as i am as advanced user would like to take risk for latest software, if there would be option for dev repo. As most annoying bug for maemo when it starts music on silent was fixed and i had to wait more than half year to get it =) |
| 18:35.33 | heymaster | ZogG_laptop: can you help how to store password on harmatton ? |
| 18:37.53 | heymaster | I created thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85344 |
| 18:39.18 | heymaster | Don't know I need to set up daemon to store passwords :) |
| 18:39.34 | heymaster | if* |
| 18:40.50 | *** join/#harmattan AlmAck (~AlmAck@156-19.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 18:47.06 | *** join/#harmattan beford (~fernand0@unaffiliated/beford) |
| 19:05.57 | *** join/#harmattan TheBootroo (52eac627@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.234.198.39) |
| 19:06.03 | TheBootroo | hello |
| 19:06.32 | TheBootroo | now that PR1.3 is out for N9, can we have a way to upgrade the N950 to 1.3 too or at least 1.2 ? |
| 19:06.54 | TheBootroo | is it safe to flash a N950 with a N9 image ? |
| 19:07.36 | rzr | i dont think it is possible |
| 19:08.32 | jonni | nope you cannot flash n9 image, different signing key. |
| 19:09.35 | TheBootroo | erf |
| 19:09.50 | TheBootroo | okay :-( |
| 19:10.09 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi_ (~lpapp@78.152.223.92) |
| 19:10.17 | rzr | but a such fw exists |
| 19:10.22 | djszapi_ | rzr: would you mind porting libindi to Harmattan? |
| 19:10.50 | djszapi_ | I mean, it needs "only" packaging for Harmattan since it is a library. |
| 19:11.02 | rzr | djszapi_, i put it on my list , but cant do that today |
| 19:11.19 | djszapi_ | when can you? |
| 19:11.41 | rzr | next week i hope |
| 19:13.37 | rzr | btw any comments on the news ? |
| 19:14.18 | djszapi_ | rzr: so much news, so unsure which one you are referring to ^^ |
| 19:14.44 | rzr | the major one :) |
| 19:15.47 | djszapi_ | well, I am happy, I am back to Ireland, which is the major for me ^^ |
| 19:16.05 | rzr | u there already ? |
| 19:16.24 | rzr | then we share a common celtic culture now |
| 19:16.43 | *** join/#harmattan faenil (8372abe4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.114.171.228) |
| 19:17.06 | rzr | djszapi_, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts |
| 19:18.46 | ZogG_laptop | heymaster: passwords for what? |
| 19:19.23 | TheBootroo | rzr; what do you think about JollaMobile annouce ? |
| 19:19.49 | rzr | i am dont think anymore , but very exited about it ! |
| 19:19.52 | ZogG_laptop | rzr: aren't you french? |
| 19:20.05 | rzr | i am |
| 19:20.13 | heymaster | ZogG_laptop: passwords for server login. but don't mind I will use aegis_crypto_encrypt function. |
| 19:20.37 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: why are you asking that ? you find his english so poor that he MUST be french ? i am too :D |
| 19:20.51 | rzr | :) |
| 19:21.00 | TheBootroo | rzr: héhé :D |
| 19:21.16 | rzr | anyway my French is also poor too :) |
| 19:21.23 | TheBootroo | rzr: XD |
| 19:21.27 | djszapi_ | rzr: I do not have a culture ;) |
| 19:21.55 | TheBootroo | rzr: do you plan packages up-to-date for Qt5 on N950 (PR1.1) ? |
| 19:21.56 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: i just know he is french, that's it |
| 19:22.04 | rzr | if we had one we wont be here |
| 19:22.08 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: ;-) |
| 19:22.39 | rzr | TheBootroo, there is already a repo for qt5 but lot of thing should be done in that shared repo de la mort qui tue |
| 19:23.06 | *** join/#harmattan arcean (~Arcean@aacs124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 19:23.27 | TheBootroo | rzr: is the version quite up-to-date or was it pushed only once, when the project using it was issued in first akpha ? |
| 19:23.50 | *** join/#harmattan jaywink (~jaywink@cs181163242.pp.htv.fi) |
| 19:24.52 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: Qt5 is unusable yet anyway |
| 19:25.02 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: I would recommend awating the beta, really. |
| 19:25.30 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: really , on my computer (Ubuntu 12.04) the first alpha from PPA work quite good |
| 19:25.42 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: yeah but i hope the beta will not be delayed |
| 19:26.00 | djszapi_ | it will not. |
| 19:26.06 | djszapi_ | define "work quite good" |
| 19:26.15 | djszapi_ | it built ? That is not a big achievement |
| 19:27.06 | rzr | TheBootroo, are you using it ? |
| 19:27.19 | rigo | Hi, I try to flash my phone and flasher -i gives me Device identifier and then says Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy |
| 19:27.26 | SpeedEvil | Are you root? |
| 19:27.37 | rigo | yes |
| 19:27.38 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: some of my QML projects are starting and have less graphic bugs than OpenGL graphic system in 4.8, and perfs are about 2x better |
| 19:28.04 | rigo | but I ssh'ed into root. Will try with su |
| 19:28.18 | TheBootroo | rzr: i really would like to experiment a lot of things that are coming with Qt5, on my computer and on my phone |
| 19:28.45 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: actually, the performance is worse |
| 19:29.00 | djszapi_ | as for Harmattan due to the booster thingy |
| 19:29.17 | djszapi_ | moreover, 4.8 is way more mature wrt bugs |
| 19:29.28 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: i didn't tested it on harmattan so i believe what you say |
| 19:29.29 | djszapi_ | 5.0 is not about fixing bugs, but introducing more for good. |
| 19:29.54 | rigo | rats, still error claiming USB interface |
| 19:30.04 | rigo | rats, still error claiming USB interface |
| 19:30.09 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: but we will forgive it because there will be so much good things aside of bugs ;-) |
| 19:30.16 | djszapi_ | rigo: still error ? |
| 19:30.24 | djszapi_ | rigo: still error ? |
| 19:30.25 | djszapi_ | :) |
| 19:30.38 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: really, just wait for the beta. |
| 19:30.39 | rigo | sorry :-/ |
| 19:30.44 | djszapi_ | life will be much simpler. |
| 19:31.02 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: yes, definetely i'm going to wait |
| 19:31.49 | djszapi_ | rzr: re jolla, how cares about meego xD |
| 19:31.57 | djszapi_ | s/how/who/ |
| 19:32.00 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: is there somewere a preliminary doc of the QML elements that will be introduced in Qt5 ? will we still need C++/QML mix for every single feature (file, db, etc) |
| 19:32.15 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: yes and yes |
| 19:32.24 | ZogG_laptop | heymaster: the question if you want to make account and store data there or use config and store there |
| 19:33.42 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: well at least i hope C++ and QML interactions will be simplified ans still more powerfull |
| 19:42.41 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: i think for any serious app you would need C++ |
| 19:43.10 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: which is Qt |
| 19:43.10 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i thought Qt5 would bring most of the Qt C++ Api to QML |
| 19:43.27 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i find quite painful to use C++ with QML |
| 19:43.51 | TheBootroo | ihope this will be simpler in Qt5 |
| 19:43.56 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: why is that? |
| 19:44.03 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: simpler what? |
| 19:44.24 | TheBootroo | djszapi_: to share code between C++ and QML |
| 19:44.25 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: you can try to maek simple apps with JS and QML only |
| 19:44.42 | rigo | found the solution: |
| 19:44.45 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i already did a lot |
| 19:44.47 | djszapi_ | TheBootroo: it is simple enough |
| 19:44.47 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: what do you mean share code? |
| 19:45.12 | djszapi_ | ZogG_laptop: he means to access to the C++ code from QML. |
| 19:45.20 | djszapi_ | but it is not that hard. Perhaps for a designer, yes. |
| 19:45.24 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: have an app with UI in QML and JS and C++ code for File access, db queries, plugins management etc |
| 19:45.29 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: you can call functions from C++ inside QML and get results, what else do you need? |
| 19:45.39 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: without complicating the deployement |
| 19:46.19 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: you see, it's like RISC and CISC |
| 19:46.22 | rigo | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?s=42d96efb76ee3bd5ccb5653f9a33b4e0&t=33543 |
| 19:46.39 | rigo | I added a couple of lines to the /etc/modprobe.d/50-blacklist.conf file thus |
| 19:46.40 | rigo | Code: |
| 19:46.41 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i would need to still be able to start a qml project which uses my custom QML class in C++ withtout the need of hard installation, just qmlviewer e.g. |
| 19:46.42 | rigo | blacklist cdc_phonet |
| 19:46.43 | rigo | blacklist phonet |
| 19:46.53 | rigo | for those who happen to google this later |
| 19:46.53 | ZogG_laptop | if you want to develop good stuff and good qualty you need to work on details, if you want one line code - use html =) |
| 19:47.38 | ZogG_laptop | rigo: you tried to use usb network? |
| 19:47.43 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i need apps to be testable without compilation for easy prototyping |
| 19:48.00 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: use python =) |
| 19:48.37 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: i would like to develop QML plugins in C++ and then put them in a FULL Qml project that will be started by qmlviewer, with the plugins in a subdir, not insttalled in the system |
| 19:48.42 | rigo | after removing phonet, I get: ERROR: Unable to enumerate USB buses! |
| 19:49.09 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: i think you can do it |
| 19:49.11 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: no thanks, no python for my, 3 languages are enough to me |
| 19:49.17 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: really ? |
| 19:49.35 | rigo | ZogG_laptop: I try to flash my N9 to pr1.3 as I won't get automatic update as it turned into open mode when I unbricked it after an xorg screw up |
| 19:49.37 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: have a plugins dirs in the project and qml will find the import in qml ? |
| 19:49.38 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: AFAIK you can do custom QML elements with C++ |
| 19:49.47 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: yes i know |
| 19:50.28 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: fo development you can install them localy for scratchbox or QtCreator |
| 19:50.39 | ZogG_laptop | and than include them as lib for install |
| 19:50.47 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: but you must provied many things with them (qmldir, .so, etc) and install it in a particular way into the OS? but i want NO installaion, only plugins in a subdir of the app dir |
| 19:50.56 | ZogG_laptop | Or to make mega pack of them and other devs can use them =) |
| 19:50.59 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi_ (~lpapp@78.152.223.92) |
| 19:51.40 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: but you see, there are 2 options: |
| 19:51.41 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: my first need is No Install |
| 19:52.23 | ZogG_laptop | 1) u use those qml components everyday in development, than you don't want them to be included per app, but to include as lib on device so all those app can use it |
| 19:52.34 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: qmlviewer starts the main.qml and if it finds plugins dir in the qml project dir it imports it |
| 19:52.47 | ZogG_laptop | 2)it's one time thing so you can do it the way you do or without qml custom thing |
| 19:54.18 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: qml custom items i want are for specific apps and / or others apps, but i don't want to have to modify the system (no /usr/lib modification), all must be in the project dir and must be startable from a simple qmlviewer (the only provided by SDk, or a custom one) |
| 19:54.53 | TheBootroo | so is there a way to let know to my QML file that the C++ plugin he need is in a subfolder and not in global OS |
| 19:55.17 | ZogG_laptop | wait |
| 19:56.29 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6135184/i-cant-get-qml-to-use-my-custom-plugin ? |
| 19:56.39 | ZogG_laptop | first answer? |
| 19:57.14 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: http://www.qtcentre.org/threads/43911-Adding-New-Components-to-QML-Designer or this |
| 19:57.17 | ZogG_laptop | or it's not the same |
| 19:57.37 | ZogG_laptop | i might didn't understand your question as i never used or tried to make my own custom plugin for qml |
| 19:58.27 | *** join/#harmattan Sniper_swe (~communi@213-66-83-184-no187.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 20:00.26 | TheBootroo | ZogG_laptop: what i want to achiveve is to be able to start any QML app (a main.qml) with a generic qmlviewer that will find the needed qml plugins in the project dir instead of needing to put the import in the system and develop a new QmlApplicationViewer each time and do a compilation (i want skip the compile part, for easy tests) |
| 20:00.45 | TheBootroo | i will look at your links and try some things |
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| 20:04.05 | ZogG_laptop | again i don't really know how it works, so can't help you here =\ |
| 20:08.29 | ZogG_laptop | TheBootroo: you may ask at #qt-qml though |
| 20:09.37 | jonni | you can set the custom searchpaths for plugins from c++ side. |
| 20:11.29 | jonni | http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativeengine.html#addImportPath |
| 20:12.04 | jonni | for generic qmlviewer your out of luck, but you can make custom viewer with addImportPath included. |
| 20:13.03 | jonni | (and you don't have to even do that, since by defautl system also searches your project dir for plugins (you can use strace forexample to see which paths are searched) |
| 20:13.06 | rigo | worked on laptop. so not only blacklisting phonet, but also reboot it seems. I had done all that on laptop but forgot about it |
| 20:13.21 | rigo | now flashing, let' see the surprises |
| 20:13.50 | TheBootroo | jonni: 1000x thkxs |
| 20:14.57 | jonni | TheBootroo: and almost forgot that on default qmlviewer you can also use -I option to add import path from commandline ;) |
| 20:15.48 | heymaster | ZogG_laptop: just store sensitive data in config |
| 20:16.04 | jonni | TheBootroo: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qmlviewer.html#adding-module-import-paths |
| 20:16.48 | jonni | TheBootroo: and forget the -I as it was only for modules and not plugins :) |
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| 20:18.12 | jonni | TheBootroo: heh, too tired and crosseyes, actually -I does work, I just have bad memory :) |
| 20:19.40 | jonni | time to go to sleep it seems :O) |
| 20:23.14 | rigo | flashed with success, lost all apps |
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| 20:37.36 | ZogG_laptop | lol just turned on TV and there is Tron there, he is uploading all data to internet. their meeting reminds me Elop comming to Nokia |
| 20:37.39 | Arie | im having gtalk problems |
| 20:37.48 | ZogG_laptop | Arie: bad for you =( |
| 20:37.55 | Arie | haha |
| 20:38.09 | Arie | when i log into gtalk |
| 20:38.21 | Arie | it tells me cant import contacts |
| 20:38.36 | Arie | but i can send and receive messages |
| 20:38.45 | ZogG_laptop | creadding it? |
| 20:39.06 | Arie | delete the account and readd it you mean? |
| 20:39.16 | ZogG_laptop | and you have combinied pr1.2 and pr1.3 parts right? |
| 20:39.18 | Arie | same issue with jabber too |
| 20:39.25 | Arie | sort of |
| 20:39.34 | Arie | issue started today |
| 20:40.01 | ZogG_laptop | you was blocked by all servers =) |
| 20:40.31 | Arie | lol |
| 20:40.34 | Arie | what? |
| 20:50.10 | pa | hm.. idle consumption is now 5mW in flight mode. with pr1.2 it was 4mW with radio on |
| 20:50.27 | pa | i had the feeling it drained the battery.. |
| 20:50.48 | pa | maybe i should just reflash? |
| 20:50.57 | SpeedEvil | You do know that's the difference between 10 days, and 12 days battery life? |
| 20:51.19 | SpeedEvil | Err - 30 and 35 |
| 20:51.26 | SpeedEvil | If that's actually mW |
| 20:51.29 | SpeedEvil | and not mA |
| 20:51.29 | pa | let me see how much it is with radio on |
| 20:51.37 | pa | but in any case |
| 20:51.43 | SpeedEvil | Also - it will vary depending on battery voltage if it's mA |
| 20:51.47 | pa | there is something there using cpu |
| 20:52.10 | pa | i wonder what, and hwy |
| 21:00.56 | rigo | when switching to developer mode, it says installation package not found :( |
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| 22:47.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | pa: can't be true |
| 22:48.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | pa: afaik industry fails to build modems that use less than 3mA (not mW) in idle registered mode |
| 22:48.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's for modem only |
| 22:54.34 | jonni | my PR1-3 normal low powerscreen consumption is about 6-8mA, and 24mA if my wifi is on. |
| 23:01.36 | jonni | altough if cpu load is low I can have ssh session over wifi and only 9mA is consumed, so consuption varies quite much depending on cpu load. and ofource my low powerscreen script generates the picture once a minute, so I could make the consumption even smaller by not updating so often. |
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| 23:25.03 | ZogG_laptop | is it me or apps4meego is down? |
| 23:26.46 | jonni | yep, its down |
| 23:28.29 | ZogG_laptop | jonni, any ideas or info? |
| 23:28.45 | jonni | no info |
| 23:28.55 | ZogG_laptop | =\ |
| 23:29.06 | ZogG_laptop | it's scary world today |
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| 23:35.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonni: which tool do you use to read out system power consumption? |
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