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| 00:41.21 | *** topic/#kde is KDE SC 4.13 is out! See www.kde.org | http://userbase.kde.org | http://forum.kde.org | Don't flood the channel, use http://paste.kde.org | Distro related questions go in your distro channel | Offtopic in #kde-chat | State your distribution and KDE version when asking questions | Don't delete ~/.kde or ~/.kde4 |
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| 01:14.20 | dontpanic__ | Hello. I hope somebody can help me here. |
| 01:14.54 | dontpanic__ | I just hit a hotkey and now my desktop reset to the default desktop. I don't know how to get back. |
| 01:15.16 | dontpanic__ | Does anybody know what hotkey I did use? |
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| 01:16.48 | dontpanic__ | I'm using KDE 4.13 on an Arch Linux distro |
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| 01:27.11 | dontpanic__ | Anyone here? |
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| 06:32.19 | lordievader | Good morning. |
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| 08:46.51 | silv3r_m00n | hi there |
| 08:47.00 | DaZ | hai |
| 08:47.00 | silv3r_m00n | is it possible to add something to the right click menu on the desktop |
| 08:47.10 | silv3r_m00n | like a shortcut to konsole |
| 08:47.17 | DaZ | hm |
| 08:47.35 | DaZ | theoretically :v |
| 08:47.48 | DaZ | ie desktop settings -> mouse actions has it customizable |
| 08:48.12 | DaZ | but i don't really remember how to add custom stuff ,_, |
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| 08:50.49 | silv3r_m00n | ok no probs, i will use run command and type in konsole there |
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| 08:52.44 | DaZ | silv3r_m00n: run command launches krunner, and alt+f2 is kind of faster way of doing that ;3 |
| 08:53.11 | silv3r_m00n | i think right click is faster |
| 08:53.52 | DaZ | wut |
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| 08:54.14 | DaZ | but ok :v |
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| 10:11.32 | Tuju | is there a way to reduce plasma-desktop mem consumption? |
| 10:14.23 | svuorela | fewer widgets ? |
| 10:21.29 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | kde rocks |
| 10:21.34 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | how did you guys make it so good lol? |
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| 10:21.54 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i mean i used linux in the 90's ok so maybe it didnt look as user friendly as windows |
| 10:22.06 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | now im using linux, and it surpasses windows in usability, productivity, and user friendliness |
| 10:25.09 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i managed to bork kubuntu a little disabling balooo/akonadi/etc |
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| 10:27.45 | jasabella | hi :) |
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| 10:29.06 | magist3r | Hi all. I have small patch for plasmaboard widget. What groups should I set in reviewboard to publish request? |
| 10:29.40 | jasabella | does kde's "network settings" configure networking independently of /etc/network/interfaces? |
| 10:30.31 | Tuju | svuorela: i've more or less cut all down, no help |
| 10:31.02 | Tuju | i've cpu/mem/swap meter, clock, systray, pager and couple application icons. |
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| 10:33.07 | BluesKaj | Hiyas all |
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| 10:33.32 | svuorela | Tuju: a cpu/mem/swap meter is a battery hog. |
| 10:33.33 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: how much memory is it using ? |
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| 10:33.48 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | my computer has 16GB of ram and an i7. kde doesnt seem to use much |
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| 10:33.58 | svuorela | Tuju: and how do you measure the ram used ? |
| 10:34.00 | sandman13 | how do i change the cursor's look at the login on KDE? |
| 10:34.16 | Tuju | svuorela: my mouse stops moving. |
| 10:34.28 | Tuju | kind of the tipping point when I don't like it. |
| 10:34.40 | svuorela | Tuju: awhat ? |
| 10:35.03 | Tuju | current desktop eats everything that it gets its hands on |
| 10:35.16 | alextai | jasabella: I think it is os dependant |
| 10:35.16 | Tuju | ram, swap, virt, rss, whatever. |
| 10:35.20 | Tuju | everything. |
| 10:35.35 | Tuju | modern opensource desktop in modern internet is a crappy experience. |
| 10:35.41 | svuorela | Tuju: that's interesting. that sounds like a bug somewhere if it is eating everything it can. |
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| 10:36.05 | alextai | jasabella: also depends on the way network is supported - I think you use Network Manager - if so - it is NM that manages interfaces |
| 10:36.05 | Tuju | svuorela: yeah, that's why i'm here. I'm not really looking hangaround friends here. :) |
| 10:36.33 | Tuju | svuorela: i've a feeling that this boat leaks in every possible seam. |
| 10:36.34 | svuorela | Tuju: but your question didn't seem to be about a bug, but just that it used a bit more than you liked. |
| 10:36.45 | svuorela | Tuju: my boat doesn't leak, and I guess my boat is kind of similar |
| 10:36.51 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | my kde 4.13 flies along on this core i7 16GB ram old machine |
| 10:37.01 | Tuju | svuorela: well i don't complain about small things. but i need a mouse for work. |
| 10:37.12 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | try installing fvwm its more lightweight |
| 10:37.25 | Tuju | svuorela: my boat is from fedora shipyard, f20 model. |
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| 10:37.38 | Tuju | it floats but leaks like hell. |
| 10:37.44 | DaZ | Tuju: how much ram do you have? :v |
| 10:37.50 | svuorela | Tuju: so how much memory does it use ? |
| 10:37.57 | DaZ | and how much is plasma-desktop using |
| 10:38.04 | Tuju | DaZ: four gigs and i think i've got same as swap. |
| 10:38.30 | DaZ | i sometimes hit that point as well ,_, |
| 10:38.35 | Tuju | and few times per day i need to kill all browsers, plasma-desktop etc or this box would just freeze, completely. |
| 10:38.50 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | perhaps there is a unintentional memory leak |
| 10:38.50 | DaZ | but it might be because kingston ssd is garbage and i have to update firmware |
| 10:38.51 | Tuju | rekonq is horrible. |
| 10:38.56 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | which processes are using up lots of ram |
| 10:39.03 | Tuju | akonadiserver is another piece of crap. |
| 10:39.15 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | yes, would like to delete akonadi |
| 10:39.34 | DaZ | Tuju: you can always run chmod -x on akonadi* |
| 10:39.38 | Tuju | the era before akonadi, my emails etc used to open pretty fast. |
| 10:39.41 | DaZ | it's dirty, but it works ,_, |
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| 10:39.56 | DaZ | unless you're actually using it |
| 10:40.00 | Tuju | now they added "cache" to speed things up, it might take a minute or two to open an email message. |
| 10:40.22 | Tuju | not to mention that it eats my foreign internet bandwidth all the time. |
| 10:40.24 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i type `find . -maxdepth 1 -type f -exec ln -sf /dev/null {} \;` in akonadis configuration subdirectories |
| 10:40.44 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | its database directory rather |
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| 10:40.45 | Tuju | i never asked to to wank with all my +20 years of emails in every folder, but it does so anyway. |
| 10:41.12 | Tuju | all those things are just living proof that those akonadi developers are complete idiots. |
| 10:41.38 | Tuju | where i come from, people say that it doesn't help if you can speak seven languages, if you've nothing to say. |
| 10:41.40 | DaZ | do it better hen :v |
| 10:41.51 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | on kubuntu i tried disabling baloo and the OS lied and said it was disabled but then baloo went ahead and indexed everything it was told not too anyway |
| 10:41.54 | DaZ | s/h/th/ |
| 10:41.56 | Tuju | that is, if you know the c++ syntax, you still can be an idiot, apparently. |
| 10:42.19 | Tuju | DaZ: I would have never createad akonadi as they did. |
| 10:42.34 | Tuju | no need to 'make it better'. |
| 10:42.46 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | databases are slow, forcing everything in a supreme database commander is slow |
| 10:43.15 | Tuju | using a multiuser, full-blown server process RDBMS for desktop is - pure idiotism. |
| 10:43.26 | Tuju | there is no way to get around that. |
| 10:43.40 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | im glad someone agree's its pretty tarded |
| 10:43.45 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | then also tarded they make it nearly impossible to disable |
| 10:43.57 | Tuju | in 1993 my first computer was 80x486 with 4megs ram and I ran X11 with a pretty desktop with it. |
| 10:44.19 | Tuju | cr45h0v3r1d3: tarded and made by retards. |
| 10:44.31 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i ran openbsd on some old 90's machines pretty well |
| 10:44.50 | Tuju | and i'm being blatant as they chose themselfs not to discuss about it. it was just pushed down our throats. |
| 10:44.57 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: yeah you wont find me expousing the value of akonadi lol |
| 10:45.16 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | yeah thats the worst part, you cant even delete it |
| 10:45.41 | Tuju | i liked the idea of onion-peals/layers, but the caching/storage on it has completely failed. |
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| 10:46.35 | Tuju | they claim that "it's fskcing difficult" - so is flight to mars too. and that's why they don't try it because it doesn't make sense now. |
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| 10:47.33 | Tuju | but kde pim part is just one big hole in our boat, this desktop leaks elsewhere too. |
| 10:48.16 | Tuju | i think those browser plugins is big reason for swapping. |
| 10:48.30 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | yeah after akonado baloo pim i'd rather install kde without those parts |
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| 10:49.22 | IkeKrull | its the 'we know its buggy as hell but we're going to ship it anyway' that bothers me |
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| 10:49.38 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | "and we wont let you disable it" |
| 10:49.59 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | IkeKrull: clearly the idea is to not let people disable it, have them bugtest it, then it will be tested enough to fix the bugs |
| 10:50.11 | Tuju | cr45h0v3r1d3: yeah, after you guys here said that 4.13 is better, i asked Fedora's rdieter that is it coming to fedora (that was yesterday) |
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| 10:50.33 | Tuju | he said that that the baloo crap cannot be disabled like nepomuk |
| 10:50.41 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: oh man im going back to an older kde because i found it easier to develop that semantic desktop akonadi stuff on it |
| 10:50.51 | DaZ | herp derp |
| 10:51.01 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: yeah i am actually ditching kubuntu to use a distro with an older kde lol |
| 10:51.59 | Tuju | every now and then i think if there would be a way to compile kde 3.x to recent fedora. |
| 10:52.19 | Tuju | i loved its PIM kit, it was nicely tied together and it worked. |
| 10:52.39 | Tuju | all PGP stuff, addressbook etc worked like dream and fast. |
| 10:52.44 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | kubuntu gave me that spyware smell |
| 10:53.09 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | yeah openbsd still has kde 3.5 |
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| 10:53.26 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i wish they woulda stuck with gnome 2.30 as well |
| 10:53.31 | Tuju | i'm afraid, that what happened was handover of older developers to younger generation. |
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| 10:54.00 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | so the younger generation thought ooh we better integrate pim and social media and sip "presence" into the very bones of the desktop environment lol |
| 10:54.02 | Tuju | the current ones never have bothered themselves about process memleaks nor mem consumption. |
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| 10:54.49 | Tuju | cr45h0v3r1d3: yep, that might be a one issue. i think that this SOME wave is just one 'season' and it will die away or change radically. |
| 10:55.04 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: yeah hopefully it dies |
| 10:55.25 | Tuju | all those mom's sweetharts will leave facepoop etc once their parents log in too. |
| 10:55.49 | Tuju | and then we're all tied up with that some-crap in our RAM, regardless that nobody uses/needs 'em. |
| 10:56.26 | IkeKrull | kdepim just shouldnt be core kde |
| 10:56.54 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | yeah kdepim shouldnt be core kde |
| 10:56.55 | Tuju | IkeKrull: you're right, as it stands now. an elefant that doesn't even work. |
| 10:57.22 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | i would love to install kde without pim/akonadi/baloo/nepomuk |
| 10:57.34 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | my pim consists of logging into webmail, mostly |
| 10:57.50 | Tuju | in overall, imo it would be better that such things wouldn't get official position until prooven, and it would be easier to bring in alternative, competing implementations. |
| 10:58.42 | Tuju | a pretty example of that is pkcs#11 integration. that never happened thanks to our natzi-german developers who like to wank with their PGP-cards that are compatible with nothing. |
| 10:59.11 | Tuju | one guy offered to do the whole implementation and he was turned down. |
| 10:59.54 | Tuju | https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116201 |
| 11:00.20 | Tuju | i think it was Alon Bar-Lev who wanted to work with it. |
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| 11:02.18 | Tuju | the funny part is, that using a kde browser with id-card, it often hangs while underlaying openssl tries to use the pcscd and certs available via it, regardless that kde doesnt' support it. |
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| 11:06.00 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | hmm their card support looks complicated |
| 11:06.23 | Tuju | cr45h0v3r1d3: who's? |
| 11:06.24 | makro | hi everyone. kwin zoom desktop effect has configuration options "enable focus tracking" and "follow focus". I have enabled both, but they don't seem to do anything. I expect that the zoom follows text cursor in active window (e.g. in kate editor and konsole), or that zoom moves to the active window when switching applications, but neither happens. anyone knows what these options actually do, if anything? (kubuntu 14.04, kde 4.13.0) |
| 11:06.30 | cr45h0v3r1d3 | Tuju: kde |
| 11:06.46 | Tuju | yeah, well i never heard anyone who uses/has such card. |
| 11:06.57 | Tuju | imo it's not even a PKI card, per se. |
| 11:07.31 | Tuju | and if you don't get what trust-chain/relationship means, it's hard to discuss about authentication at all. |
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| 11:17.39 | DaZ | makro: it does some magic with kaccessible |
| 11:20.24 | DaZ | makro: and it kind of does what you said, once the kaccessible is running ,_, |
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| 11:23.08 | makro | DaZ: how do I get that running? package kaccessible is already installed, but I don't know how to check if it's running. |
| 11:25.35 | DaZ | makro: dunno, i've just listed what's in the package and ran /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kaccessibleapp ,_, |
| 11:25.45 | Tuju | http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=215&t=120783 "mails appear as notes", yeah seen that kind of things on my desktop too. |
| 11:25.46 | DaZ | there's probably a clickable way to do it somewhere |
| 11:26.04 | Tuju | there is some very basic guts getting messed up in akonadi. |
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| 11:27.16 | Tuju | sometimes if you try to fix all that mess and delete some pim accounts from settings, create a new ones, those old settings re-appear again. |
| 11:27.58 | Tuju | or you name those settings from "New IMAP account 11" to something sensible, it gets named but that "New IMAP...11" still is visible elsewhere than settings. |
| 11:28.50 | Tuju | or you save some contact from email message, it gets saved into addressbook, but instead of name, it appears as crabage/hash/whatever instead its name. |
| 11:29.01 | Tuju | the list goes on and on. |
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| 11:29.39 | Tuju | http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=215&t=120620 Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:58 am KMail can't load new E-Mails |
| 11:29.57 | Tuju | "Can you try disabling Desktop Search in System Settings and see if the situation improves?" hah hah hah |
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| 11:32.20 | Tuju | http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=215&t=120451 Wed Apr 02, 2014 "New mails go to trash instead of inbox" |
| 11:32.59 | Tuju | this feels like a soviet union, a field test of stupid idea in the first place. |
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| 11:34.06 | Tuju | it gets better... |
| 11:34.23 | Tuju | http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=215&t=120289 Tue Mar 25, 2014 kmail 1.13.7 in modern KDE? |
| 11:34.41 | Tuju | i'm still have to use kmail 1.13.7 and so ancient kde (4.6.5), because kmail 4.12.3 is seems to be unusable |
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| 11:35.06 | ed_t | kmail4 on 4.13 is giving me three problems. |
| 11:35.31 | Tuju | ed_t: it cannot as it has been described as a snakeoil fix for all problems on those forum threads. |
| 11:35.40 | ed_t | First filters do NO run automaticily on the Local Folders/inbox |
| 11:36.06 | ed_t | Second expiring forgets that messages are expired |
| 11:36.27 | Tuju | imo what we need now: We need to undestand that all these years, this has been a complete disaster. As in Soviet Union, we need to fix it by hiding it, by destroying all those not-so-plesant reports from web etc. |
| 11:36.48 | Tuju | we need to make it *look* good in public. |
| 11:37.09 | Tuju | we need to shut up these people who make us look bad. |
| 11:37.15 | ed_t | third the folder that the expired messages go into ends up with messages duplicated many times |
| 11:37.20 | Tuju | like in good old DDR. |
| 11:38.13 | ed_t | it HAS improved. at least now it can handle the lkml from a pop source |
| 11:38.30 | Tuju | http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=215&t=119397 "Corrupt Messages", nothing less, nothing more.... |
| 11:38.47 | ed_t | the 'forgetting' expired messages is new with 4.13, the other two are older |
| 11:39.05 | Tuju | what was the year when this great Das Experiment with our users started? |
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| 11:40.15 | ed_t | Tuju that message has NOTHING to do with what is happening here |
| 11:40.20 | makro | DaZ: I ran kaccessibleapp and have it up, but still don't see any changes in zoom behavior. what did you get it to do? follow text cursor, move to active window, or both? |
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| 11:40.35 | Tuju | ed_t: i'm sure there is some messages that have. :) |
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| 11:40.44 | makro | I also checked enable screenreader in kaccessibleapp |
| 11:40.49 | DaZ | makro: it follows active window on window change, and text cursor while typing |
| 11:40.57 | DaZ | so i guess this means both ;3 |
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| 11:41.09 | makro | it does, just not for me :P |
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| 11:41.27 | DaZ | makro: the description asks for QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1 variable in the environment |
| 11:41.38 | DaZ | it might be it ;3 |
| 11:41.48 | makro | will try |
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| 12:05.29 | joules | The run command drop down has frozen. Any tips on killing it? |
| 12:05.55 | DaZ | joules: kquitapp krunner |
| 12:06.10 | DaZ | unless it's some other run command drop down ,_, |
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| 12:06.36 | joules | ah..thanks, but that seems to be stuck now too. :) |
| 12:06.50 | DaZ | killall -9 krunner |
| 12:06.51 | DaZ | :V |
| 12:06.55 | joules | hehe yeh |
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| 12:07.30 | joules | here we go, thanks. |
| 12:07.40 | joules | hmm |
| 12:07.47 | joules | bye/ |
| 12:07.52 | joules | ☮ |
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| 12:09.12 | Tuju | yeah, if you have a problem with k-application, you don't call yet another to help. :-o |
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| 12:09.28 | DaZ | herp detp |
| 12:09.34 | makro | DaZ: there we go, now it works. thanks! :D |
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| 12:18.09 | ed_t | is there the equivilant of fsck for akonadi ? |
| 12:18.37 | DaZ | ed_t: there's akonadictl fsck |
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| 12:24.23 | ed_t | no manpage for akonadictl? Where is the doc for it? |
| 12:25.30 | DaZ | ed_t: well, it has --help |
| 12:25.33 | DaZ | other than that, dunno ,_, |
| 12:26.32 | diegoviola | baloo replaces the indexer (strigi) only, right? |
| 12:26.42 | ed_t | Daz thanks. I'd seen the help though |
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| 12:36.49 | Tuju | plain 'akonadictl fsck' didn't do much. |
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| 12:40.07 | einar77_work | Tuju: it does things in the background |
| 12:40.14 | einar77_work | so there's no user-visible action |
| 12:40.48 | Tuju | sadly we needed an irc channel to figure that out, command itself saved bandwidth by keeping that piece of information as a secret. |
| 12:41.24 | einar77_work | it's not really meant to be an end-user tool |
| 12:41.45 | Tuju | sure, and akonadi is meant to work. Welcome to the real world. |
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| 12:47.53 | einar77_work | Tuju: works for me |
| 12:48.36 | einar77_work | ~100K mails on 4 accounts, plus contacts and calendar - hence, YMMV |
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| 13:54.32 | Tuju | first sign of problem is to deny, that software we all try to use, has caused a lot of people to post about problems into forum etc. |
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| 13:59.13 | einar77_work | Tuju: I do most of the support in the Kontact & PIM forum in the KDE Community Forums, in fact ;) |
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| 13:59.35 | svuorela | Tuju: tell me one piece of software with users that doesn't cause people to post about problems into forums, maillists, newsgroups, ... |
| 13:59.36 | dhritishikhar__ | MESSAGE |
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| 14:00.30 | Tuju | svuorela: it's not that we would have small problems, but getting close that it's completely useless. |
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| 14:00.54 | Tuju | and the fact is that i stopped using whole kdepim once it was introduced early kde4.x |
| 14:01.05 | Tuju | it was couple years that i didn't touch it at all. |
| 14:01.45 | Tuju | now it only eats all memory from your computer. |
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| 14:04.02 | Tuju | svuorela: go and ask tss from #dovecot a) would he have done akonadi as it has been done b) how he would have implemented desktop pim layer/cache. |
| 14:04.27 | Tuju | i don't know what he will answer, but what i do know, he has done something right with dovecot. |
| 14:06.50 | einar77_work | Tuju: why is then Kontact (with Akonadi) the best client to use with KOlab? |
| 14:07.17 | Tuju | mmm.....maybe because it's the only one? |
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| 14:07.59 | Tuju | einar77_work: don't forget that kde people tried to push akonadi as freedesktop.org standard and they were laughed out of the door. |
| 14:08.27 | einar77_work | Tuju: at least don't rewrite history |
| 14:08.35 | einar77_work | there was "no laugh out" |
| 14:08.43 | Tuju | yeah right. |
| 14:09.18 | Tuju | at least there was some sense left not to accept that christmast tree into every opensource desktop. |
| 14:09.56 | einar77_work | ahem |
| 14:10.01 | einar77_work | www.kde.org/code-of-conduct |
| 14:10.31 | Tuju | didn't see that coming while waiting real arguments. |
| 14:11.02 | einar77_work | "christmas tree" isn't really a strong argument itself ;) |
| 14:11.24 | einar77_work | (and no one denies the transition has been hard - I've been using PIM-backed akonadi since 4.6) |
| 14:11.51 | Tuju | einar77_work: in my culture it's called 'himmeli', but that would open up for most on this channel. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Himmeli.JPG |
| 14:12.33 | einar77_work | What I mean is, technical objections can be argued, subjective qualities not |
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| 14:13.20 | Tuju | einar77_work: there is no discussion, nor real arugmentation when developers do insane descisions and we all see the consequnces of those. |
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| 14:13.49 | Tuju | you-just-don't-put-serverside-RDBMS-into-single-user-desktop-session-period. |
| 14:14.13 | Tuju | if we need to argue about that, there is nothing to discuss. |
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| 14:22.23 | svuorela | whistles quietly |
| 14:23.23 | Tuju | svuorela: see what i wrote about ddr earlier... |
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| 14:26.56 | svuorela | ddr ? |
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| 14:32.51 | moviuro__ | knotes migrator is running since > 20 seconds, but I don't use it. It reads ~ 2MB/s, for _nothing_ (it seems). |
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| 14:35.39 | Illusioneer | So is all dev work on kopete is dead now? |
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| 14:39.55 | moviuro__ | Illusioneer: well, it still runs, it feels way better than ktp (for me) so I stick with it for the moment |
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| 14:46.59 | rdieter | Tuju: its the "cpu/mem/swap meter" most likely |
| 14:47.03 | Illusioneer | moviuro__: not just smoother but loads more features. Telepathy has no real notifications options beyond the most basic stuff, I'm just to having custom notifications for groups and single users |
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| 14:47.15 | Tuju | rdieter: you think so? |
| 14:47.28 | rdieter | Tuju: there's an open bug about it, let me dig it up |
| 14:47.33 | moviuro__ | Illusioneer: you can group conversation in Kopete? |
| 14:47.40 | Tuju | i belive it if you say so. |
| 14:47.44 | Illusioneer | I can with IRC |
| 14:47.44 | moviuro__ | I don't (Google Talk/Hangouts and Facebook chat) |
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| 14:47.58 | Illusioneer | though the IRC plugin is a bit flaky |
| 14:47.59 | rdieter | Tuju: try removing that applet and see if symptoms persist or not |
| 14:48.00 | moviuro__ | Illusioneer: you use Kopete for IRC? :o |
| 14:48.02 | Tuju | 'system load viewer' |
| 14:48.15 | moviuro__ | you should use Konversation |
| 14:48.22 | Illusioneer | yes, it's not as good as Konversation but Konversation is designed solely for iRC |
| 14:48.25 | Tuju | rdieter: threw it away already.... sadly it was the thing that showed that excess swap use. |
| 14:48.36 | Illusioneer | But I love having centralized logging |
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| 14:48.41 | Illusioneer | I miss that from Adium |
| 14:49.13 | rdieter | Tuju: you say it was plasma-desktop using all the memory? |
| 14:49.32 | rdieter | the bug I recalled was https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271934 (which is more about kded4) |
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| 14:49.58 | Tuju | rdieter: not all, like said these days the whole desktop leaks everywhere. |
| 14:50.09 | Tuju | mainly kdepim, plasma-desktop and browsers |
| 14:50.12 | rdieter | Tuju: thats an invalid assertion |
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| 14:50.22 | rdieter | (at least one without evidence) |
| 14:50.50 | Tuju | rdieter: i don't care, but if my mouse stops moving once all swap is used, it kind of distrubs working. |
| 14:51.14 | Tuju | you can come over here and see it your own eyes if you don't believe it. |
| 14:51.24 | rdieter | Tuju: true, but if you want to constructively help getting individual leaks fixed, those kinds of claims aren't helping anyone |
| 14:52.12 | Tuju | rdieter: that's true. i've found that kde community where i reported every single bug for years, was just pooping on our face. i've stopped all that constructive thing years ago. |
| 14:52.14 | moviuro__ | Illusioneer: ktp can't even connect to facebook chat! pacman -Rscn kde-telepathy! |
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| 14:52.39 | Tuju | rdieter: only thing i wonder, what keeps you going. |
| 14:52.48 | Illusioneer | what's sad is if it wasn't for the horrid notification suppoer in Pidgin i'd be using it |
| 14:52.59 | rdieter | Tuju: not sure why you're here then. if all you want to do is rant, then I'll happily ignore you |
| 14:53.41 | Tuju | rdieter: it started from innocent question, but ended up into terapeutic ranting as usual. |
| 14:54.14 | Tuju | and what else it would be if i see something with my own eyes and someone here questions it. "naah, you just think so" |
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| 14:54.26 | rdieter | Tuju: no one said that |
| 14:54.43 | Tuju | rdieter: scroll up, you might think otherwise. |
| 14:55.05 | Tuju | rdieter: mutual respect is something that doesn't come qranted. |
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| 14:55.51 | nullvibe | Illusioneer: supposedly, pidgin "leaks" your irc contacts in the quit message if you use it for irc |
| 14:56.11 | rdieter | Tuju: my interepretation of the converstation doesn't math your claim |
| 14:56.16 | rdieter | match... |
| 14:56.16 | Illusioneer | good grief |
| 14:56.24 | Tuju | rdieter: noted. |
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| 14:56.56 | Illusioneer | you know third party chats like Steam i can accept some goofy/shady behavior, but IRC is about as standard as you get |
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| 14:58.00 | nullvibe | Tuju: I think the disconnect here is that you haven't provided concrete information about the "problems" you're claiming. Without said information, no one can verify or even know what you're talking about |
| 14:58.11 | rdieter | Tuju: again, I'm willing to listen/help if you're willing to help contribute toward finding solutions for your problems. otherwise, I have better things to do |
| 14:58.23 | nullvibe | still considers not being able to hide the "peanut" to be a major problem btw :) |
| 14:59.02 | nullvibe | Illusioneer: yeah... |
| 14:59.53 | nullvibe | fortunately for me, I use a relay in front so that I can use multiple clients with the same account, so any leaks are isolated to being sent to my own relay :) |
| 15:00.55 | moviuro__ | nullvibe: there is a plasmoid that hides it |
| 15:01.02 | nullvibe | Illusioneer: oh, and in case you were wondering, this information came to me via #freenode. many of them have a TERRIBLE opinion of pidgin, it seems |
| 15:01.24 | moviuro__ | nullvibe: http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Py-Cashew?content=147892 |
| 15:01.42 | DaZ | moviuro__: it doesn't work since 4.12 |
| 15:01.45 | ed_t | every time this appears in my .xsession-errors log kmail stalls: |
| 15:01.48 | ed_t | kmail2(22105)/kio (Scheduler) KIO::SchedulerPrivate::doJob: KIO::SimpleJob(0xe944f20) |
| 15:01.49 | ed_t | kmail2(22105)/kio (KIOJob) KIO::TransferJob::slotFinished: KUrl("file:///usr/share/apps/kdeui/about/kde_infopage.css") |
| 15:01.52 | moviuro__ | oh, sorry, didn't know that |
| 15:01.53 | ed_t | ideas? |
| 15:01.54 | Illusioneer | pidgin is for me like Gnome, a poor design that people refuse to let go of for no god damn good reason |
| 15:02.09 | Illusioneer | even the claims of minimalism are voided by other managers like XFCE |
| 15:02.13 | nullvibe | moviuro__: if it's python-based, there's also a good chance of severe memory leaks :) |
| 15:02.23 | DaZ | herp derp |
| 15:02.35 | moviuro__ | just puts the cashew in a corner |
| 15:02.46 | nullvibe | Illusioneer: but, but... it does EVERYTHING! :) |
| 15:03.01 | Illusioneer | lol till you try doing ANYTHING |
| 15:03.10 | nullvibe | moviuro__: yeah...and all of the corners are used for things when you use maximized apps |
| 15:03.18 | ed_t | and the file it refers to does not exist |
| 15:03.36 | moviuro__ | nullvibe: your cachew is on the topmost plane/layer? O_o |
| 15:04.01 | Illusioneer | the ONLY gnome based app that I found to be superior to a KDE offering was Pan |
| 15:04.15 | Illusioneer | and that's stretching the claim, it's just because it's GTK based |
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| 15:04.19 | nullvibe | so you hide the close button on the right, the menu button on the left, partially block the menu button on the bottom left, or the clock on the bottom right |
| 15:04.33 | nullvibe | moviuro__: afaict, there's no options to put it under the desktop layer |
| 15:04.51 | moviuro__ | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/04/24/plasma-desktopZ15683.png http://wstaw.org/m/2014/04/24/plasma-desktopH15683.png |
| 15:05.07 | Tuju | nullvibe: i guess i was more or less hoping that someone would say like rdieter did, "it's likely the process meter that leaks", i'm not going to start debug whole desktop here. |
| 15:05.12 | nullvibe | tbh, I have no idea what the activity manager is to begin with, so obviously it's not necessary for my workflow as the kde developers supposedly claim |
| 15:05.17 | moviuro__ | nullvibe: bbl, talk to moviuro_ in the meantime |
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| 15:07.55 | Tuju | rdieter: is akonadiserver supposed to be 4gig VIRT size? |
| 15:08.08 | rdieter | Tuju: of course not |
| 15:08.32 | Tuju | it's my trid biggest process, rekonq +4gig, plasma-desktop +4gig |
| 15:09.00 | Tuju | problem is that you shoot those processes down and start again, swap consumption doesn't change. |
| 15:09.02 | nullvibe | virt is irrelevant. only res matters |
| 15:09.07 | rdieter | Tuju: well, VIRT if very misleading |
| 15:09.22 | rdieter | plus what nullvibe said |
| 15:09.26 | Tuju | nullvibe: yeah, and virt is only that shows excess figures when mouse stops moving. |
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| 15:09.44 | rdieter | Tuju: then perhaps your problem is something else |
| 15:09.55 | nullvibe | LOTS of apps are in the habit of grabbing huge chunks of memory that they don't need, but the memory manager on most OSes is smart enough to only keep in memory what has actually been used |
| 15:10.38 | Tuju | maybe someone makes a tiny app that pushes all that mem info into common server and we could track down what kind of overall situation is across kde users |
| 15:10.56 | Tuju | like smolt but online/realtime version of it. |
| 15:11.01 | rdieter | Tuju: my virt is ~1.6gb, but res is only ~28mb |
| 15:11.14 | Tuju | which process? |
| 15:11.23 | nullvibe | that would make the privacy people complain |
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| 15:11.35 | rdieter | Tuju: akonadiserver |
| 15:11.43 | Tuju | nullvibe: they can happily complain about my privacy, i don't care. |
| 15:12.03 | rdieter | Tuju: kde system activity reports: 18.9M memory, 8.5M shared (RES I think is the sum of those) |
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| 15:12.53 | GoaSkin | Hello, has anybody an idea what may be mis-configured if KDE overrides changes in the xmodmap settings? The output of xmodmap -pke shows me the changes I made but they do not have any effect in KDE (I deactivated X11 but X11 still works) |
| 15:13.05 | nullvibe | Tuju: you can't track "across kde users" without it being an automatic thing incorporated into kde, and being an automatic thing would leak certain things about users such as ip address |
| 15:13.15 | Tuju | 17723 tuju 20 0 3427800 56768 8472 S 0.0 0.7 1:19.62 akonadiserver |
| 15:13.20 | Tuju | virt is the big figure. |
| 15:13.24 | Tuju | that's from 'top' |
| 15:13.29 | rdieter | again, virt is largely useless |
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| 15:13.49 | Tuju | nullvibe: i was thinking more like self installed app, nothing being part of kde all the time. |
| 15:13.54 | rdieter | your ~56m figure for RES is useful though |
| 15:14.11 | nullvibe | opt-in will miss a lot of things |
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| 15:14.23 | Tuju | rdieter: those res, shr numbers imo have never really been big ones, but still machine chockes up. |
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| 15:14.46 | Tuju | nullvibe: you can't get the pony always, not even every time. |
| 15:15.02 | rdieter | Tuju: ok, I think we can conclude that memory leakage isn't necessary the cause of your chokes |
| 15:15.19 | rdieter | (at least based on the evidence so far) |
| 15:15.36 | nullvibe | Tuju: if you want to see what REALLY might be putting the MOST memory pressure on your system, enter top and hit m. That sorts by res, which is where the memory pressure that locks your mouse MIGHT be coming from |
| 15:15.58 | Cymew | GoaSkin: How did you "deactivated X11"? |
| 15:16.05 | nullvibe | also, apps with memory leaks usually rise to the top eventually |
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| 15:16.23 | Tuju | nullvibe: i think it's the </> button that changes the sorting column. |
| 15:16.33 | Tuju | mem hides some top rows |
| 15:16.40 | Tuju | err, m char hides some top rows |
| 15:16.40 | nullvibe | m is a direct link to sort by memory usage |
| 15:16.54 | nullvibe | oops...M instead of m |
| 15:16.56 | GoaSkin | Cymew: sory. I meant the Key 'F11', not X11 |
| 15:17.02 | Tuju | yeah, that works |
| 15:17.11 | Cymew | GoaSkin: That made more sense |
| 15:18.05 | Cymew | GoaSkin: My experience tells me keybaord mapping is a bit wonky. Modern desktop environments seems to do that on their own and ignore the X server, unless I'm just clueless. |
| 15:18.17 | Tuju | nullvibe: firefox was one biggest res user, i killed it. still the swap is some 70% used. |
| 15:18.26 | Tuju | and mem more or less half. :) |
| 15:19.04 | rdieter | Tuju: swap used isnt necessarily a good metric either, fyi |
| 15:19.11 | nullvibe | Tuju: yes, firefox is a repeat offender. especially if you have a lot of tabs open. certain extensions amplify its memory usage too |
| 15:19.15 | Tuju | sad part is that when you boot up, you notice that all the same apps and what you do normally, get along with way less mem as it builds up during uptime. |
| 15:19.23 | GoaSkin | Cymew: I put a script into the autostart folder containing some xmodmap commands to deactivate function keys. It worked until I changed the Locale in the system settings. Since that, the xmodmap is ignored and I have no idea why. |
| 15:19.33 | nullvibe | 's firefox normally uses 2-3G of ram (RES) |
| 15:19.41 | Tuju | and i have now some 10 days of uptime. |
| 15:19.56 | Tuju | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:20.06 | Tuju | rdieter: what's yours? |
| 15:20.26 | rdieter | Tuju: uptime? 3 days currently |
| 15:20.31 | Tuju | ack |
| 15:20.42 | nullvibe | wow. you guys reboot a lot |
| 15:20.47 | Tuju | nullvibe: :) |
| 15:20.49 | rdieter | only rebooted recently for a mesa-10.1 update |
| 15:21.10 | Tuju | with centos server it's easy to get some 400-600 days or so. |
| 15:21.18 | nullvibe | shouldn't have to reboot for THAT. just kill X and restart it |
| 15:21.26 | rdieter | nullvibe: kernel modules |
| 15:21.45 | rdieter | (though I suppose one could arguably manually reload those, but meh) |
| 15:22.38 | nullvibe | gpu modules are a little more difficult to pull out and reload. that's one of the few times a reboot might be better |
| 15:23.00 | Tuju | my biggest RES is now X server. |
| 15:23.07 | Tuju | 322M |
| 15:23.18 | Tuju | next is cups-browsed |
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| 15:23.56 | Tuju | that even is bigger than kmail and plasma-desktop. :-o |
| 15:25.05 | Tuju | rdieter: is there know leakage in that kpackagekit-whatnot tray icon still? |
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| 15:25.31 | Tuju | at some point some fedora tray stuff used to grow while time passed by |
| 15:25.53 | rdieter | Tuju: none that I'm aware of |
| 15:25.59 | Tuju | ack |
| 15:26.00 | Safa_[A_boy] | I am running ArchLinux. Amarok crashes always, so I opened it from terminal with the debug option. This is the last part of the log: pastebin.com/p2grwecs |
| 15:26.25 | rdieter | Tuju: well, Xembed-based systray items may still show problems, but kde stuff definitely not |
| 15:27.12 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: try a more sane pastebin, please |
| 15:27.14 | rdieter | especially legacy Xambed stuff that abuse systray for animating |
| 15:27.17 | Tuju | and probably there is no 'process listing' for plasma panel itself what it's running? that would be useful. |
| 15:27.20 | Cymew | GoaSkin: I see. So it has worked once. That's better than I ever managed. Take a look at setxkbmap if not that one plays nicer with modern desktops. I have had little lcuk with xmodmap and KDE, personally. |
| 15:27.37 | nullvibe | pastebin.com is openly hostile to tor, has ads, kills your cat, etc, etc |
| 15:27.46 | rdieter | Tuju: plasma panel is part of plasma-desktop (everything is a containment or applet) |
| 15:28.05 | Tuju | rdieter: you said it, i'm not that aware of its guts... |
| 15:28.16 | Tuju | not even that much that would know how to call 'em |
| 15:28.35 | Safa_[A_boy] | nullvibe: http://paste.kde.org/plrb36ibj |
| 15:29.07 | rdieter | Tuju: so if plasma-desktop RES usage goes nuts, that definitely highlights some applet or dataengine leakage |
| 15:31.54 | Tuju | and there is no way to tell which |
| 15:32.04 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: I don't think that caught the actual problem. you should probably strace it and post the results |
| 15:32.07 | Tuju | tries to install win8.1 and that crap requires online account |
| 15:32.33 | nullvibe | well, duh. they want to spy on you |
| 15:32.51 | nullvibe | need some basic information on you to bootstrap from :) |
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| 15:33.17 | Tuju | notices that i'm not alone http://superuser.com/questions/661416/how-to-install-upgrade-to-windows-8-1-rtm-without-a-microsoft-account |
| 15:33.32 | Tuju | that company has something very sick in its core. |
| 15:33.37 | Safa_[A_boy] | nullvibe: 'strace'? |
| 15:34.18 | Tuju | it's logical that "sign in locally without microsoft" is under "create a new account" dialog.... |
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| 15:36.19 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: something like 'strace -f -o /tmp/amarok.strace amarok' then pastebin the /tmp/amarok.strace file after amarok crashes |
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| 15:37.42 | Tuju | heh heh heh, i'm using first time in my life w8 desktop. what in earth they were thinking? :D |
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| 15:40.13 | nullvibe | nevermind that. what on earth are YOU thinking? |
| 15:41.18 | nullvibe | you complain about KDE's memory usage, then install winpig. does not compute... |
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| 15:46.45 | *** topic/#kde is KDE SC 4.13 is out! See www.kde.org | http://userbase.kde.org | http://forum.kde.org | Don't flood the channel, use http://paste.kde.org | Distro related questions go in your distro channel | Offtopic in #kde-chat | State your distribution and KDE version when asking questions | Don't delete ~/.kde or ~/.kde4 |
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| 15:49.08 | Safa_[A_boy] | nullvibe: And I should upload 80 mb of data?! |
| 15:50.58 | Tuju | nullvibe: i'd be happy to use solidworks on kde. |
| 15:51.12 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: cat /tmp/amarok.stace |tail -n1000 > /tmp/amarok.pastebin |
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| 15:52.07 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: it's mainly the end that we're interested in, so the last 1000 lines or so (/tmp/amarok.pastebin) should be more than sufficient |
| 15:52.23 | nullvibe | Tuju: have you checked appdb.winehq.org for compatibility with wine? |
| 15:53.04 | nullvibe | or asked #winehq about it? |
| 15:53.04 | Tuju | nullvibe: it's so complicated 3D hw accelerated piece of sw that i'd expect it to be very last ones to work. |
| 15:53.25 | Tuju | and i think i searched a bit the topic once got it few years ago. |
| 15:53.47 | nullvibe | the binary blob is mostly the same for windows OR *nix |
| 15:54.05 | Tuju | i don't think it has any unix version. |
| 15:54.33 | Tuju | solid from Siemens has some linux version, but the app itself is not that attractive. |
| 15:55.15 | Safa_[A_boy] | nullvibe: Ok, I'll wait until it crashes :p |
| 15:55.16 | Tuju | and i'm not sure would i like to buy anything than piece of railroad track from siemens.... |
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| 15:56.19 | *** topic/#kde is KDE SC 4.13 is out! See www.kde.org | http://userbase.kde.org | http://forum.kde.org | Don't flood the channel, use http://paste.kde.org | Distro related questions go in your distro channel | Offtopic in #kde-chat | State your distribution and KDE version when asking questions | Don't delete ~/.kde or ~/.kde4 |
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| 15:57.35 | nullvibe | and the exposed gpu features are the main hang up |
| 15:57.39 | nullvibe | anything that supports opengl should work just as well on wine as windows graphics-wise, and anything that uses directx shouldn't take too much of a hit (provided the system doesn't have native directx and HAS to convert dx -> ogl) |
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| 16:06.51 | Tuju | unfortunately that solidworks tries to keep up with latest bells and whistles and hence wouldn't keep my hopes high that wine and it would ever meet each other. |
| 16:07.22 | Tuju | but they do price it so unattractively that it's common on business that people do run old releases. |
| 16:07.58 | Tuju | 'support' or something that they call it, costs 500-1000 euros per year. |
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| 16:23.03 | pozori | I have global chat accounts configured in settings but what program to use with them? |
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| 16:57.50 | Illusioneer | sighs |
| 16:58.03 | Illusioneer | Yeah Telepathy still has it's head up it's ass |
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| 17:11.35 | pozori | huh? |
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| 17:21.32 | Alumin | is Kopete still the official KDE IM client? |
| 17:21.58 | Alumin | I've already been called out once today for using an "ancient" KDE version with different internals, so I'm not gonna say it like I'm sure :P |
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| 17:38.11 | nullvibe | Interesting. I just tried moving the desktop "peanut" from the desktop itself down to the lower corner, and it actually DOES get hidden behind the panel. cool :) |
| 17:38.56 | nullvibe | Now I just have to figure out how to get rid of the panel "peanut" and force the menu to respect my font and dpi settings, and I should be able to consider KDE as usable as xfce |
| 17:40.41 | nullvibe | Safa_[A_boy]: I thought it was crashing reliably and quickly for you. Maybe you should figure out what operation makes it crash first, THEN strace it. the strace file will grow prohibitively large and might fill up whatever device your /tmp is on otherwise |
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| 17:42.00 | nullvibe | Alumin: I don't see any im client being required by my kde packages, so presumably there isn't an "official" one |
| 17:42.31 | Alumin | huh |
| 17:42.50 | Alumin | I thought it was called the cashew |
| 17:43.14 | Alumin | come on people, these are VERY TECHNICAL TERMS we're dealing with here! |
| 17:43.17 | Alumin | :P |
| 17:43.26 | nullvibe | depends on who you ask I suppose. I first saw it called a peanut, so that's what I've stuck with |
| 17:43.48 | Alumin | I actually thought it looked a little like a lima bean |
| 17:43.55 | nullvibe | truth be told, I think it would be more accurate to just call it an "unnecessary annoyance" :) |
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| 18:01.16 | pozori | well it helps people with touchscreens |
| 18:01.28 | pozori | like cancer helps people lose weight, may I add |
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| 18:02.08 | DaZ | nullvibe: https://github.com/gustavosbarreto/plasma-ihatethecashew |
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| 18:02.57 | pozori | Arezzo plasma theme, desktop as folder, cashew topleft, Homerun instead of Kicker, cascading window placement and smaller font size and KDE is almost good |
| 18:03.06 | pozori | god someone fix the defaults pls |
| 18:03.54 | DaZ | pozori: someone is fixing it :v |
| 18:04.32 | pozori | also shortcuts of window & desktop handling to those of GNOME for sanity |
| 18:04.40 | DaZ | meh |
| 18:04.54 | pozori | what meh? |
| 18:05.38 | DaZ | gnome and sanity in one sentence ;3 |
| 18:06.07 | pozori | GNOME 3.10 is awesome with excellent defaults, no way around that |
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| 18:09.22 | nullvibe | pozori: the cashew has to be on the bottom for me since my panel is on the bottom |
| 18:09.30 | nullvibe | came from the windows world rather than mac |
| 18:10.31 | pozori | well me too, I hate Macs. way too clumsy. I had one for two weeks for test drive just this february. returned it. |
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| 18:12.59 | nullvibe | the hardware is nice, and an argument could be made for darwin I suppose, but osx (darwin + cocoa) is worse than windows for security and general usability |
| 18:14.01 | pozori | I agree. |
| 18:14.02 | nullvibe | I also found I could do seemingly innocuous things and cause it to crash, which means a reboot, which is one of my least favorite computing words |
| 18:14.57 | pozori | my main gripe really was how clumsy everything was to do. like, you get dozens of yes/no confirms throughout day. |
| 18:15.02 | nullvibe | by the by, linux is getting worse about crashing and OOPSes doing what SHOULD be innocuous things too. that's why I've started planning my exit strategy |
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| 18:15.22 | pozori | change distro |
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| 18:15.41 | nullvibe | don't mind putting forth the effort to improve software that's mostly usable, but I'm not a alpha tester. developers need to fix the obvious crap themselves before sending it on to me |
| 18:16.02 | nullvibe | I don't think you understand. linux has been buggy as hell and crashy since ~2.6.39 |
| 18:16.10 | pozori | not for me |
| 18:16.42 | nullvibe | presumably related to the bkl removal, and possibly also because of the merger of the experimental branch with the stable branch. now everyone gets experimental features pushed on them if they update |
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| 18:17.09 | pozori | what distro are you running? |
| 18:17.34 | nullvibe | hybrid opensuse tumbleweed & 13.1 right now |
| 18:18.11 | pozori | you should try Fedora. has been rock solid in my use since F18 when I switched. haven't looked back. |
| 18:18.38 | nullvibe | that's irrelevant though. there's only two real choices atm: run a lts distro which uses an ancient kernel and misses out on xen and kvm updates, or run the latest and contend with more frequent crashes while doing day-to-day things |
| 18:19.08 | nullvibe | no. F21 is delayed indefinitely, and F20 leaves no way to back pulseaudio back to a version that DOESN'T DoS my network |
| 18:20.05 | pozori | well, your loss. F21 is btw delayed intentionally until they get architecture restructuring in place |
| 18:20.07 | nullvibe | I had to revert pulse on opensuse to from 4.0 to an earlier version too, but their dependencies allowed for it. I'd have to revise and rebuild a LOT of fedora packages to do it there |
| 18:20.21 | lainlives | lol yes |
| 18:20.30 | lainlives | fedora was bad for downgrading any package |
| 18:20.42 | nullvibe | also bad for shipping broken crap :) |
| 18:20.50 | lainlives | thats why i too am on opensuse these days |
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| 18:21.06 | nullvibe | and of this, I definitely know my stuff, because I've been an on-and-off redhat & fedora user since redhat 5.1 |
| 18:21.14 | lainlives | nullvibe: well its going to happen when they try to be bleeding edge with so many packages |
| 18:21.18 | pozori | "broken crap" says person complaining about instability while I have none |
| 18:21.43 | lainlives | fedora is dodgey, on some machines its perfect on others its just.... i dont even know how to explain it |
| 18:21.51 | lainlives | i mean i love it none-the-less |
| 18:22.08 | nullvibe | every once in a while, the fedora people include a reinvented wheel (like systemd) and I have to switch to something else until the enormous number of problems it causes |
| 18:22.30 | nullvibe | s/until/until they fix/ |
| 18:22.37 | pozori | what problems? |
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| 18:22.53 | pozori | seriously, conversing with you feels like talking to someone from another dimension lol :D |
| 18:23.02 | nullvibe | with systemd in particular, it's the piss-poor backward compatibility with init scripts |
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| 18:24.14 | pozori | obviously, it's nothing like initv, but that isn't a problem. it's difference. |
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| 18:24.28 | nullvibe | now they're deadset on wayland, which addresses NO current day concerns (like network-transparent GPU operations), and is thus doomed to the same fate as the layer they want to replace |
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| 18:24.53 | pozori | everyone except canonical is deadset on wayland |
| 18:24.59 | pozori | even Debian |
| 18:25.08 | nullvibe | pozori: the "problem" is that they break compatibility with BSDs and other *nixes |
| 18:25.17 | pozori | who cares? they are BSD's |
| 18:25.18 | nullvibe | portability is kind of important |
| 18:25.31 | lainlives | doesnt it have an Xorg translation layer |
| 18:25.40 | pozori | yup |
| 18:25.42 | lainlives | (which would add more needless complexity for something to go wrong) |
| 18:25.53 | nullvibe | I care. I don't want to be developing linux-specific code when I can develop code that works on every other standards-compliant OS |
| 18:26.46 | pozori | Poettering is right. BSD's are kinda irrelevant. they should just be ignored. the amount of devpower and attention they get is miniscule |
| 18:26.50 | nullvibe | let's not forget that KDE and other DEs would have to port to use on wayland directly to avoid the X layer, which would add the complexity to the DE code rather than adding another layer to the stack :) |
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| 18:27.23 | pozori | AFAIK KDE and other DE's are doing exactly that |
| 18:27.25 | nullvibe | pozori: and yet, pcbsd has the best installer out of ANY os :) |
| 18:27.26 | lainlives | nullvibe: yea, it would be pointless to use wayland if everything was just going through its xorg translation, meaning so much will be broken at first |
| 18:27.33 | lainlives | but it /will/ work out eventually |
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| 18:27.47 | lainlives | as all the upstream code is updated through the years to be wayland compatable |
| 18:27.54 | nullvibe | then there's useful stuff like zfs, whose porting efforts are hindered by gpl zealotry |
| 18:28.41 | nullvibe | lainlives: again, all that effort for no benefit. they don't address the fundamental limitations of X that will hurt X going forward |
| 18:28.49 | nullvibe | like network-transparent GPU operations. that IS the future of computing |
| 18:29.11 | pozori | you should run Plan9 |
| 18:29.16 | pozori | have fun |
| 18:29.17 | lainlives | well if any of the two have it coded in in the future, i would imagine it would be wayland though |
| 18:29.22 | lainlives | but it would still be distant future |
| 18:29.22 | nullvibe | if you don't understand how, just look at vm-centered security distros like Qubes |
| 18:30.01 | nullvibe | the Qubes people had to write their own custom graphics shims to address the gpu situation, since vms are effectively "remote" to the gpu doing the rendering |
| 18:30.02 | lainlives | purely due to the interest in it, as you said, everyone is working on ditching Xorg |
| 18:30.50 | nullvibe | lainlives: the problem is that something like that has to have been incorporated into the design from the very beginning. NOT doing so means wayland will be ditched almost as soon as it's picked up, or best case... |
| 18:31.01 | nullvibe | it gets grafted on like many of X's extensions, making it no better than X |
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| 18:31.37 | nullvibe | extension on top of extension on top of extension may as well be ineffeciency on top of inefficiency on top of inefficiency :) |
| 18:32.08 | lainlives | XD ofc it would be grafted on an extension, because thats how its worked up till now, and ofc, your right, it /will/ be inefficient |
| 18:32.18 | pozori | I'm not familiar with Wayland to comment, but I'm rather sure seeing the industry and developer backing it has.... that those people know what they are tossing their monies at |
| 18:32.47 | nullvibe | it's like I said, linux people are in so much of a rush to make a name for themselves that they can't be bothered to solve CURRENT problems. Instead, they look for something old that's been maintained to maintain compatibility and reinvent it "just because" |
| 18:33.07 | lainlives | that sounds about right tbh |
| 18:33.15 | nullvibe | meanwhile, they generally infect it with the gpl whereas the older code may have had a more permissive, less viral license |
| 18:33.20 | lainlives | now lets hear your rant about current graphics drivers |
| 18:33.43 | pozori | well thet are rushing fast to solve current problems by ditching X11 |
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| 18:35.02 | nullvibe | graphics drivers are kind of an intractable problem. they involve patents going every which way, so even the oem can't necessarily provide specs to the foss community without violating some agreement or infringing on someone's patent |
| 18:35.52 | lainlives | im actually quite impressed by the foss drivers these days |
| 18:35.55 | nullvibe | meanwhile, with or without official backing of any sort, the foss drivers will never have anything near feature parity with the binary blobs |
| 18:35.59 | lainlives | just a few years ago they were complete garbage |
| 18:36.38 | lainlives | now i get simalar framerate on my FOSS radeon driver on my legacy cards as with the binary blobs for it (which i can no longer use on said machine) |
| 18:37.35 | pozori | I still get allergic reaction when someone mentions ATi |
| 18:38.07 | lainlives | pozori: lol i /love/ amd's new graphics hardware, thankfully their drivers only break xorg 50% of the time now instead of 90% |
| 18:38.22 | pozori | Intel ftw |
| 18:39.14 | lainlives | does it OpenCL? |
| 18:39.27 | lainlives | +support |
| 18:39.38 | pozori | I don't code for that so I don't care |
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| 18:39.49 | lainlives | actually i intend on getting intel gpu on my next laptop reguardless though |
| 18:39.59 | lainlives | my laptops require to be fuss free |
| 18:40.24 | lainlives | id have too much free time if my desktop didnt break all the time |
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| 19:13.07 | nullvibe | lainlives: just try running a game like DDO under wine on the foss radeon driver though. fairly certain you won't be able to because of missing caps, which are missing because of the software rather than lack of support in the hardware |
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| 19:14.16 | nullvibe | then you have more foss-friendly oems like intel, but their gpus are too pathetically underpowered to do much with, so no amount of foss-friendliness is going to help |
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| 19:16.26 | nullvibe | on a somewhat related note, the #winehq people have always talked badly about using compositors, and it's because it adversely affected directx and opengl apps in some cases and just turning off the compositor wasn't enough. you had to turn it off and restart X |
| 19:17.52 | nullvibe | it was described to me as a fundamental flaw in the way X works, and is the only shortcoming I know of that MIGHT come close to legitimizing reinventing the wheel with wayland |
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| 19:29.57 | nullvibe | what font setting affects the menu? I've been through everything I can think of twice today, reloaded kde once, and the fonts for the launcher menu STILL are using ultra-teensy text |
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| 19:35.49 | DaZ | nullvibe: general :v |
| 19:36.10 | nullvibe | must be a bug, then |
| 19:36.21 | DaZ | or menu if it's the classic one |
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| 19:38.42 | nullvibe | yes, it's classic |
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| 19:39.17 | nullvibe | changing the menu font works, but it still looks like there's a bug since the fonts used by the panel aren't respecting the custom DPI setting |
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| 19:40.30 | nullvibe | menu set to 32pt is roughly equivalent to 12pt @ "Force Fonts DPI: 216" |
| 19:41.24 | nullvibe | anyway, just fyi, in case anyone else asks. there's a workaround, so not something critical to get fixed |
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| 20:22.39 | moviuro_ | on amarok, the 'Current track' complete info seems to have disappeared: no more lyrics + info + wikipedia ? All in separate tabs now ? |
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| 20:37.12 | ntz | hello |
| 20:37.36 | ntz | may I ask o.O .. when winded up in kde "kompare" ? such a beautiful tool .. I'm pleased |
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| 20:44.34 | Inkane | hi, how/where can baloo be configured to index data no a separate partition? |
| 20:51.17 | ntz | Inkane: this ballo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloo ? |
| 20:51.36 | Inkane | ntz: no, http://community.kde.org/Baloo |
| 20:56.48 | ntz | Inkane: :) .. i was just making little fun .. i really don't know |
| 20:58.33 | IkeKrull | baloo can't be configured at all really, it seems |
| 21:00.00 | Inkane | IkeKrull: well, not in the GUI it seems |
| 21:00.11 | Inkane | but I was hoping that I could baloorc |
| 21:00.20 | Inkane | *could configure |
| 21:03.20 | IkeKrull | Inkane: i don't think you can do that currently |
| 21:04.30 | Inkane | that would be rather disappointing |
| 21:04.44 | Inkane | well, I still can patch the source... |
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| 22:49.01 | folken_ | Hey guys. Can anyone explain to me, why kde applications are so notoriously unstable? they seem to segfault at random. |
| 22:50.24 | folken_ | On 1st session korganizer decided to die. Konqueror decided to die when i tried to login on opendesktop.org. |
| 22:50.33 | folken_ | 2.nd session kwin decided to die upon login. |
| 22:50.48 | Sho_ | folken_: Could be hardware failure (bad RAM?), file system corruption (flipped bit in a lib somewhere?), packaging problems (incosistent ABIs between libs and apps), .. |
| 22:51.41 | folken_ | Sho_: other desktops run fine on this machine. its just the experience whenever i try to use it. its was no different with kde2 or kde3 (over the years) |
| 22:52.22 | Sho_ | folken_: dunno, I don't really get crashes in the stable releases ... maybe once in a quarter or so |
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| 22:53.30 | folken_ | interesting. is 4:4.11.8-1 stable? |
| 22:54.09 | Sho_ | folken_: yeah sure, that's a stable release + a fairly "done" one given the .8 point release |
| 22:54.30 | Sho_ | i'm on 4.13.0 now, but I certainly used 4.11.x releases when they were current |
| 22:55.12 | Sho_ | folken_: but anyway, looking at the specific things you cite |
| 22:55.59 | Sho_ | folken_: kwin is the window manager, which these days usually means there's OpenGL compositing going on, which relies on a huge stack of OpenGL API implementation and 3D acceleration driver and hardware - and unfortunately the OpenGL drivers on Linux aren't all of equal quality |
| 22:56.02 | Sho_ | some are pretty rough |
| 22:56.25 | folken_ | i just use the intel onboard graphics on my thinkpad. |
| 22:56.40 | Sho_ | Konqueror has the problem that rendering websites is complex, and the KHTML library it uses by default doesn't have much manpower work on it anymore, so it's imaginable that it has bitrotted due to lack of maintenance |
| 22:56.47 | Sho_ | for KOrganizer I have no idea though |
| 22:56.56 | Sho_ | Intel's drivers are usually quite reliable |
| 22:57.08 | Sho_ | I had/have Intel in my last two laptops too |
| 22:57.17 | Alumin | Thinkpad is supposed to be the magic word for GNU/Linux laptopping |
| 22:57.25 | folken_ | *moremagic8 |
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| 22:57.39 | Sho_ | well, most laptops are just the basic Intel platform now so they're all very similar anyway |
| 22:57.41 | Alumin | I've had three and that's why I bought all of them |
| 22:57.50 | Alumin | that and their excellent keyboards :) |
| 22:57.51 | Sho_ | although vendors can certainly fuck up on the BIOS/ACPI side of things |
| 22:57.57 | folken_ | i had a x60t x61t and now a x220t |
| 22:58.25 | folken_ | but i'm not sure my next one is going to be a thinkpad.. the line seems to loose its edge at every incarnation. |
| 22:58.58 | Alumin | maybe Lenovo isn't as serious about it as IBM was |
| 22:58.59 | folken_ | i'm going to punch whomever had the idea to move the powerled to the back. |
| 22:59.57 | folken_ | (i know that kde has nice notifications for such things but normaly i'm an i3 user.) |
| 23:00.25 | Sho_ | i once had a laptop that had a power button on the main keyboard where normally print screen is |
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| 23:00.31 | Sho_ | so i accidentally shut down the system all the time |
| 23:00.48 | Alumin | ouch! |
| 23:00.57 | folken_ | yikes. |
| 23:00.57 | Sho_ | whoever designed that just hates people |
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| 23:01.46 | folken_ | i had a thinkpad yoga in my hands today. |
| 23:01.54 | scummos | Sho_: oftentimes you can configure the bios (or even acpi?) to not do that, right? |
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| 23:02.20 | folken_ | scummos: well you can tell acpid to not execute the script, or tell the script not to do anything. |
| 23:02.24 | Sho_ | scummos: i eventually removed the keyboard and removed the switch under the key |
| 23:02.28 | scummos | haha |
| 23:02.31 | folken_ | lol |
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| 23:02.57 | Sho_ | it saved me time because i was reinstalling and dual-booting a lot |
| 23:03.06 | Sho_ | so i didn't have to worry about software-side fixes anymore |
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| 23:05.16 | obesd | hmm so i cant make the desktop shortcuts not be in italics ? (they are symlinks, made by right clicking an app in kickoff and clicking add to desktop) |
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| 23:06.34 | Sho_ | let me look at the code |
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| 23:07.40 | obesd | thank you :D |
| 23:07.40 | Sho_ | obesd: nope, it's hardcoded, sorry |
| 23:07.47 | Sho_ | i.e. it would need a code change |
| 23:07.53 | Sho_ | symlinks are hardcoded italic |
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| 23:08.04 | obesd | Sho_: ah well, i guess i can make app shortcuts by hand then so the text isnt italic |
| 23:08.07 | Sho_ | obesd: maybe you could use bind mounts instead of symlinks, if they're really static |
| 23:08.14 | Sho_ | ah, for files |
| 23:08.22 | Sho_ | or apps |
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| 23:08.25 | Sho_ | yeah, .desktop shortcuts work then |
| 23:08.43 | obesd | yeah its in kde 4.11, when i find an app in the kickoff app launcher, and right click an app and click "add to desktop" |
| 23:09.19 | obesd | im using the traditional folders and files layout for the desktop too, rather than the advanced erm, other thingy |
| 23:09.38 | obesd | (rather than the default desktop) |
| 23:10.14 | Sho_ | obesd: yeah, I did some bugfix work on Folder View and am writing the Plasma Next version |
| 23:10.45 | obesd | yeah i can right-click the desktop, click Create New | Link to Application, and then put in the name of the shortcut, the command to execute, and find the right icon for it too |
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| 23:11.02 | obesd | Sho_: ahh nice very cool, amazing desktop KDE is |
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| 23:13.06 | obesd | i symlinked nepomuks database to /dev/null lol |
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| 23:16.43 | obesd | Sho_: well, i finally made a desktop that doesnt give me a headache and make me puke. KDE on openSUSE is all setup and ready to go, now i can get back to learning reverse engineering soon!! |
| 23:16.54 | Sho_ | nice :) |
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| 23:17.00 | Sho_ | what are you reverse-engineering? |
| 23:17.11 | Sho_ | btw: 4.13 just replaced Nepomuk with new tech |
| 23:17.30 | obesd | Sho_: windows binaries (XP) but will move onto harder things, am learning mainly vulnerability research and the reverse engineering that comes along with that |
| 23:18.05 | obesd | Sho_: i did use 4.13 on kubuntu but ended up installing openSUSE |
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| 23:21.21 | heyyoo | suse ftw |
| 23:21.35 | obesd | yeah suse is pretty good |
| 23:21.52 | obesd | i dont think i like canonical derived OSes |
| 23:22.03 | heyyoo | gf uses mint, is ok |
| 23:22.33 | obesd | i did try out mint for quite a while, but in the end in cinnamon i could not even make a two row taskbar, and with ~50 windows open i couldnt get any work done |
| 23:22.51 | heyyoo | mint has a kde release too |
| 23:23.02 | obesd | yeah i tried that out in a VM |
| 23:23.18 | heyyoo | i am using it actually right now |
| 23:23.19 | obesd | i think suse is win |
| 23:24.09 | obesd | well i decided not to use mint because they (1) hide the kernel updates from you such as kernels with security patches and then (2) the developers tell you in IRC not to install the newer kernel because newer kernels are never tested in mint and may well likely give you a unstable or unreliable system |
| 23:24.26 | obesd | so if your kernel has some dccp remote udp ping of remote root, good luck on mint |
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| 23:25.21 | heyyoo | hide kernel updates? how that? |
| 23:25.55 | obesd | well their automatic updater has kernel updates not listed by default |
| 23:25.59 | obesd | "unticked" |
| 23:26.30 | heyyoo | oh, never using those tools |
| 23:26.34 | obesd | ubuntu puts new kernels or kernel updates out, and mint's default is to filter them from being listed |
| 23:26.41 | heyyoo | just apt command line |
| 23:27.16 | rubin110 | Having a weird issue where if the secondary display is higher than the primary display, notifications don't appear anymroe. |
| 23:27.19 | rubin110 | anymore |
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| 23:38.27 | obesd | now one widget i like in kde, is "Quick Access" for files and folders |
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| 23:42.33 | obesd | i used quick access and some other things to make my desktop look like this: http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=423&image=fedora_5_02_show |
| 23:42.38 | obesd | call me oldfashioned |
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| 23:57.55 | linuxkeitaro | obesd funny. I prefer KDE's default vs old school GNome |
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