| 00:01.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | you folks have noticed nice new µblog dos1 installed to neo900.org? |
| 00:02.08 | dos1 | hey, it's not there yet! :D |
| 00:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | duh! |
| 00:02.32 | dos1 | but will be in some minutes |
| 00:02.34 | dos1 | ;) |
| 00:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | pops open a beer bottle |
| 00:35.58 | FIQ | DocScrutinizer51 didn't have enough patience |
| 00:36.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | hm? |
| 00:36.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://twitter.com/tosttosttost/status/479419524408963074 :-P |
| 00:37.41 | FIQ | nice name |
| 00:38.17 | FIQ | why not @neo900? |
| 00:39.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | because that's prerelease sandbox testing |
| 00:39.27 | FIQ | what happens if you post involves too long texts (>140), or what about "&"? |
| 00:40.04 | dos1 | twitter is not a main channel for our microblog, it's just "also posted there" |
| 00:40.19 | FIQ | where's the main channel? |
| 00:42.36 | dos1 | on neo900.org in few minutes :) |
| 00:43.09 | dos1 | right now it's in testing - DocScrutinizer05 and wpwrak try hard to break it :D |
| 00:43.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, we try hard NOT to break it ;-P |
| 01:22.54 | dos1 | http://neo900.org/#news |
| 01:25.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-06-19 Thu 03:23:44] <dos1> microblog is alive! |
| 01:25.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 01:26.04 | dos1 | and @neo900 on twitter was already taken :c |
| 01:26.07 | dos1 | it's @neo900ug if you want to follow :) |
| 01:26.56 | dos1 | http://twitter.com/neo900ug |
| 01:29.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | which fucker took @neo900 ? |
| 01:29.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess there must be a reason I hate twitter |
| 01:30.08 | dos1 | "Joined January 2010", speaking with some character set I surely can't read |
| 01:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | can I spam that "account"? |
| 01:31.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | BLAERGH! sending same illegible sequence over and over again |
| 01:31.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ５番パー。 |
| 01:32.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly coordinating a bot net |
| 01:32.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 01:33.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | 22.4k tweets? |
| 01:33.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | is that what I think it is? |
| 01:34.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | BLAERGH! |
| 01:36.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, twitter is such a pile of ... |
| 01:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | holds his nose |
| 01:36.51 | dos1 | :) |
| 02:04.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, this looks kinda OKish now |
| 02:04.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | hope some folks will like it |
| 02:05.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...and support us to reach 200 devices to build, again |
| 02:06.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: did wit tell Marin of Zeit about our anti-NSA concept? |
| 02:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/wit/we/ |
| 02:17.34 | *** join/#neo900 silviof (~silviof@unaffiliated/silviof) |
| 02:38.52 | wpwrak | instead of "anti-NSA", i'd rather emphasize trustworthiness. with this phone, you're the boss again, and now just a sheep to be chased around by manufacturer, provider, and all sorts of shady organizations. |
| 02:39.43 | wpwrak | of course, the more closed-source bolbs the freemantle folks can kill for us, the truer this becomes :) |
| 02:52.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | you didn't grock our sandboxing concept yet, do you? |
| 02:52.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | grok, even |
| 02:52.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not even shipping *any* software |
| 02:54.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | a Samschlung Gall Axy will *never* be safe, not even when you run freeBSD on it |
| 02:55.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | on Neo900 you can run android (replicant) and it's still at least 'usable' regarding what can happen to you and what NSA *cannot* do with you and your phone |
| 02:57.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | the "you're the boss" aspect is already covered by user's choice between roundabout half a dozen plus some alternative OS you can install and use |
| 02:58.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're "boss" as well on a cyanogenmod droid phone, and on a jailbroken fruitphone |
| 02:59.04 | wpwrak | (you're the boss) i mean as the catchphrase, to get people interested |
| 03:00.09 | wpwrak | well, on cyan you have to live with whatever dubious hw choices the phone maker made. e.g., modem sharing memory. |
| 03:00.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | as a catchphrase this hardware is like a mixture of fort nox and a dungeon for anybody trying to do shit to you |
| 03:00.47 | wpwrak | and on the rotten apple, it's closed source paradise. so yes, you may briefly feel you're in charge, but you're still blindfolded and shackled :-) |
| 03:01.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not selling the rooted OS |
| 03:02.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're selling the fort nox in hardware, and you decide which OS and apps to run on it |
| 03:02.33 | wpwrak | doens't change that you're still the boss :) |
| 03:02.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | depends |
| 03:03.14 | wpwrak | if you don't like the wording, i'm sure we can come up with something else. but i'd say a key feature is user empowerment that begins at the hardware |
| 03:03.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not going to marked a selling pont that isn't |
| 03:03.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | market |
| 03:04.11 | wpwrak | you don't think the owner of a neo900 would be more empowered than with the competition ? |
| 03:04.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, depends |
| 03:04.36 | wpwrak | empowered for or against whatever they choose, including nosy TLAs |
| 03:04.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not a property of our product. Simple as that |
| 03:06.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | on our product openness starts not where the boss sits, but it starts where the architect builds the buikding where the bosses chair will be |
| 03:06.42 | wpwrak | the product enables empowerment by design. whether the customer uses it or not is their own choice. |
| 03:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can run cheesy closed google-android on neo900 |
| 03:07.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: other product do as well |
| 03:07.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | again: I'm not going to sell this on a selling point that isn't |
| 03:08.02 | wpwrak | which other product have a nicely isolated and monitored (!) modem ? |
| 03:08.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's NOT "you're the boss" as used by you just above |
| 03:09.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's rather "you're Mr Tuttle" |
| 03:09.11 | wpwrak | what i mean is that you're not required to give up control |
| 03:09.46 | wpwrak | counterexample: apple. there you get a nice safe kindergarden but you have to accept to be treated like a child. |
| 03:09.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, you failed to sell that slogan to me |
| 03:10.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | "you're the boss" clearly means "rooted" |
| 03:11.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | or 2jailbroken" |
| 03:11.20 | wpwrak | well, we can find other slogans. what i find important is to emphasize the idea of not having to bow before some powers that be |
| 03:11.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 03:11.46 | wpwrak | you're the boss of neo900 ug. have you been rooted ? ;-) |
| 03:11.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | pffff |
| 03:12.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think anti-NSA is more to the point than "you're the boss", sorry |
| 03:13.24 | wpwrak | (powers that be) in more abstract terms, this would be structural power. e.g., if you have to accept humilation just to get something that should be rightfully yours. |
| 03:14.09 | wpwrak | "anti-NSA" is rather questionable. i mean, if neo900 would even appear on NSA's radar, they would have it out of the nets quicker than you'd imagine |
| 03:16.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm really not in the mood for a punching session |
| 03:16.27 | wpwrak | also, while pretty much everybody finds what the NSA are doing at least a little revulsive, few enough people would make "anti-NSA" a key factor in their choice of a phone |
| 03:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah. let's discuss this next year please |
| 03:18.16 | wpwrak | and those who would may have lots of fancy demands neo900 can't meet anyway. i'm sure you've seen the type. they always say "i like it. if you'd do/change $SOMETHING, then i'd buy one." of course, even if you did, they would just find another thing. |
| 03:18.32 | wpwrak | yeah, no hurry with it. let's pick this up again later. |
| 03:18.49 | wpwrak | and you should do something about that sleepwalking :) |
| 03:19.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | meanwhile I reconsider "the most secure phone hardware you can get" |
| 03:19.38 | wpwrak | or maybe joerg should do something about those people who use his nick while he's asleep ;-) |
| 03:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I will delete "boss" from my dictionary |
| 03:22.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody feel happy when hearing or reading the word "boss" |
| 03:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's magnitudes worse than "no negatives!" |
| 03:23.04 | wpwrak | "you're in charge" "you hold the keys" "you have control" "master of you universe" whatever. |
| 03:23.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm in charge sounds scary |
| 03:23.28 | wpwrak | "declare your independence !" "break the chains !" etc. |
| 03:23.33 | wpwrak | ;-)) |
| 03:23.54 | wpwrak | note: "in charge" not "charged" ;-) |
| 03:23.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not breaking chains, we exploit them |
| 03:24.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're a poor marketing drone, sorry to say that :-) |
| 03:24.51 | wpwrak | uuuh ... you want exploitation ... how about: "Dominate !", "Your dominance", ... ? |
| 03:25.46 | wpwrak | "You rule". that can also just be used to say that you're great. |
| 03:26.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | how about "unlike2 X-P |
| 03:26.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe we can even find a worse slogan than that |
| 03:26.37 | wpwrak | "unlike2 X-P" ? or just "unlike" |
| 03:28.05 | DocScrutinizer51 | you're pretty time demanding, didyou ever hear : |
| 03:28.37 | wpwrak | actually, "not like the rest" (independent, free, innovative) or, if you refer it to "like" in the fakebook sense, "no false friends" or "doesn't keep bad company" could work. since the phone wouldn't betray you. |
| 03:29.04 | DocScrutinizer51 | books a 20h on wpwrak |
| 03:29.18 | wpwrak | whatever that means :) |
| 03:31.40 | wpwrak | "no false friends" should also be quite easy to understand for those who hate NSA, CGHQ, et al. |
| 03:32.00 | wpwrak | and of course, it includes all sorts of other false friends |
| 03:33.58 | wpwrak | and of course in that context, we have "trust" as in "Trusted Computing", a term that orwell couldn't have coined better. |
| 03:39.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* you don't ever sleep, eh? |
| 03:40.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg |
| 03:45.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | what that means? thatmtoday been one of the most exhausting ones of this year, and I don't think the result been adequate |
| 03:47.35 | DocScrutinizer51 | and that after 20h I now feel like chilling a bit |
| 03:49.50 | wpwrak | (trusted computing) exactly ! |
| 03:49.55 | wpwrak | happy chillin' ! :) |
| 04:00.48 | *** join/#neo900 XDS2010_ (sid1218@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jkudapkcdtjqsywu) |
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| 07:26.59 | *** join/#neo900 joecool (~joecool@no-sources/joecool) |
| 07:27.52 | joecool | lol was gonna suggest twitter for short updates |
| 07:28.07 | joecool | japanese always get the jump on relevant twitter handles |
| 07:28.09 | joecool | https://twitter.com/neo900 < |
| 07:28.28 | joecool | i'm gonna guess that's not about the phone :) |
| 07:56.56 | wpwrak | maybe he was concentrating on it and walked into something ... :) |
| 08:00.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks like a bot |
| 08:01.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, 22400 tweets, most of them ５番パー。 ? |
| 08:03.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | or 1, 2, 3, 4 |
| 08:03.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | 5th par. |
| 08:04.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I probably don't have than number of posts in IRC in that time ;-) |
| 08:04.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | that* |
| 08:05.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn |
| 08:05.16 | infobot | xyawn is probably sleep |
| 08:05.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | she's so wise |
| 08:06.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | infobot, try again |
| 08:06.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn |
| 08:06.25 | infobot | methinks xyawn is nap |
| 08:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN!! |
| 08:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | is stubborn and won't do like suggested |
| 08:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn |
| 08:10.39 | infobot | good coffee |
| 08:10.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha! |
| 08:11.28 | joecool | good thing facebook wasn't chosen |
| 08:11.31 | joecool | that shit's offline |
| 08:19.58 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@147.99.218.243) |
| 08:22.04 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:dd55:2d78:6320:2516) |
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| 09:55.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | chosen? |
| 09:56.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | what I learned today: Wells Fargo is cumbersome for US citizens when they want to do a money transfer to Neo900 UG account |
| 09:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | Alternative: http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/19/plasma-desktopk27898.png https://www.xoom.com/send/getstarted/payment |
| 09:59.50 | *** join/#neo900 thrakcattack (~u@193-154-252-156.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 10:02.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | My bank consultant (Deutsche Bank) been pretty puzzled when I tild him that US customers of my company have problems doing a IBAN/SWIFT money order to my (well Neo900 UG's) account. He couldn't help with providing details how I could talk some Wells Fargo account owner in US through that process - surprising info ;-) |
| 10:02.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | told* |
| 10:02.53 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: I want to trade my gta04 in for neo900 :> |
| 10:03.06 | fling | I have a complete openphoenux device… |
| 10:03.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, Neo900 UG can't do that, since GTA04 is a product of Golde Delicious Computers |
| 10:03.39 | fling | ohh |
| 10:04.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | but of course you can Talk to Nikolaus and ask him what he can do for you :-) |
| 10:05.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, duly noted. Maybe we need GTA04 developer devices. I'd contact you in this case |
| 10:06.52 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@p5B0721B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:07.52 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: thanks ;> |
| 10:07.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks for the offer and info |
| 10:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | so, this been xoom. Next: PayPal |
| 11:08.10 | dos1 | joecool: twitter wasn't "chosen" as well - it's just automatically crossposted there :P |
| 11:27.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | crossposts "Neo900 UG has a PayPal account. Stay tuned and wait patient for it to get fully activated |
| 11:28.23 | *** join/#neo900 remarc (~sequantz@194.11.24.44) |
| 11:30.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | next step: bitcions. I'm really not up to this. dos1, could you have a look into it and tell me what needs to get done? |
| 11:30.44 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: just generate a private key and an address from it |
| 11:31.01 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: no need to use a client even |
| 11:31.22 | fling | DocScrutinizer05: then import the private key to a client when you will need to send the coins :> |
| 11:35.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha! o.O ;-P |
| 11:35.29 | dos1 | fling: I don't think Joerg is interested in nice pile of bitcoins residing in his wallet :P |
| 11:35.50 | dos1 | I quess some service like coinbase will be handy there |
| 11:36.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yup, prolly |
| 11:37.26 | fling | I can pay in bitcoins btw :P |
| 11:37.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | also: http://privatepaste.com/7a2b56b158 ;-P |
| 11:38.03 | dos1 | you forgot "a" :D |
| 11:38.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN!!! |
| 11:38.16 | fling | doh |
| 11:38.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | bit...wut? |
| 11:39.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;) |
| 11:39.44 | dos1 | https://coinbase.com/docs/merchant_tools/getting_started |
| 11:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | that sounds more like it |
| 11:40.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, laters. Now my bank wants to see me in person |
| 11:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | (stupid signatures, since name of company "changed ") |
| 11:41.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschränkt) (in Gründung) -> Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschränkt) |
| 11:42.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course you have to redo all the paperwork :-S |
| 11:42.49 | dos1 | coinbase "instant exchange" fee: 1% plus $0.15 |
| 11:42.52 | bencoh | what does (haftungsbeschränkt) (in Gründung) stand for ? |
| 11:43.01 | bencoh | (no, I dont speak german) |
| 11:43.25 | dos1 | bencoh: "haftungsbeschränkt" is "limited", and "in Gründung" - "in establishing" |
| 11:43.44 | dos1 | "limited liability" even |
| 11:43.56 | bencoh | oh I see |
| 12:00.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | bbl, folks |
| 12:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: when you're bored, you could already ponder how to integrate PP and BTC into the website |
| 12:05.43 | dos1 | coinbase should be very easy |
| 12:06.35 | dos1 | with paypal, we can either provide the e-mail and let the users pay by themselves, or put some of their buttons on the website |
| 12:06.51 | dos1 | however, different buttons (like "buy now", "donate" etc.) have different set of rules |
| 12:30.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | headdesks a little... Holiday, no banks today |
| 12:31.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | the results of 24/7 working for Neo900 ;-D complete detachment from RL |
| 12:32.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | already wondered why the heck nobody is available via phone |
| 12:34.03 | bencoh | at 3am ? |
| 12:34.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | pm? |
| 12:34.23 | bencoh | oh you mean right now |
| 12:34.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | cmd: Do 19. Jun 14:34:26 CEST 2014 |
| 12:37.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: I know the buttons, had some of them for my private account, for hostmode and maemo donations |
| 12:38.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | huge success ¡ ;-P |
| 12:38.28 | dos1 | yep, but the rules suck |
| 12:39.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | what particularly? |
| 12:39.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | (not general rules of PP, those are :X anyway) |
| 12:41.25 | dos1 | Note: This button is intended for fundraising. If you are not raising money for a cause, please choose another option. Nonprofits must verify their status to withdraw donations they receive. Users that are not verified nonprofits must demonstrate how their donations will be used, once they raise more than $10,000. |
| 12:41.51 | dos1 | I'm not sure yet what exactly "must demonstrate how their donations will be used" means |
| 12:42.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not non-profit, and we're basically not "raising funds" like PP defines that, I guess |
| 12:45.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | we will "sell" publicly visible development of a device incl documentation to our "customers" I guess |
| 12:46.06 | dos1 | "buy now" button then? ;) |
| 12:46.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | yup |
| 12:46.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | though the wording sucks |
| 12:46.35 | dos1 | yup |
| 12:48.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | "you're bidding for 'supporter status in project Neo900', for details see #70" |
| 12:49.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | "delivery of your customer identification number: by email" |
| 12:51.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, it sucks |
| 12:53.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | "your supporter status entitles you for a frequent newsletter which provides download URLs to get the results of the work you supported, plus other privileges" |
| 12:54.38 | *** join/#neo900 NIN101 (~core@n900.quitesimple.org) |
| 12:54.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | ny tax adviser completely bailed out, my lawyer said "ummm, I need to think about this for a few hours" ;-) |
| 12:56.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | crowd funding is a concept not commonly adopted into laws and terms of service yet. *OUR* crowdfunding with rebate is sth they pull their hair out |
| 12:59.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | but we're not running any scam or doing tax evasion or are dishonest to our supporters, so it's not something we must not do per se, just there's not a single law that really fits for it |
| 12:59.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and with PP all the same |
| 13:01.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | nicely goes along with bitcoins indeed ;-) |
| 13:01.54 | *** join/#neo900 misv (~ms@h-62-144.a259.priv.bahnhof.se) |
| 13:03.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a PITA here in Germany (and prolly Europe) where you cannot even donate an arbitrary amount of money to a random guy on the street without checking which laws apply for that. Literally, and there *are* laws even for that |
| 13:06.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably when you'd (hypothetically) give a 50'000EUR to a beggar in the street, then *you* can get sued when you don't ask the dude for his ID card and write his data down. And only Go.. err some lawyer might know which other liabilities and obligations you had in such case |
| 13:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally handing over money from A to B is under supervision and you need to check if you're obliged to inform some law enforcement entity when you do |
| 13:08.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | (applies for >=15000 afaik) |
| 13:10.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | example: you buy a car fro 20k. Sure like hell *both* seller and the guy who buys the car need to have data of the other one, simply because of the money that moves from A to B |
| 13:11.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | the money is the most ugly aspect of our nice little project |
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| 15:51.48 | wpwrak | they say money is only a problem if you don't have enough of it. it's just our temporary misfortune that we're still struggling with this bit :) |
| 15:52.42 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: maybe you should take bids from the various spy organizations for some cleverly hidden exlusive backdoor ;-) |
| 15:55.32 | dos1 | 1) take bids |
| 15:55.44 | dos1 | 2) sell backdoor to some three letter agency |
| 15:55.55 | dos1 | 3) introduce neo900 to the market |
| 15:56.38 | dos1 | 4) simultenously introduce "neo900 NSA edition" to finish the transaction |
| 15:58.34 | dos1 | 5) thoroughly document the differences in both editions and make the funding transparent ;) |
| 16:07.21 | wpwrak | 6) make sure they have your exact address for sending those black helicopters :) |
| 17:13.45 | wpwrak | new edition, now with more yellow: neo900.org/stuff/werner/tmp/n900-wip-2014061912.pdf |
| 17:15.31 | wpwrak | that's the work of my script that parses the diagram and makes (well, will make) modifications based on semantics. more to come, hopefully soonish :) |
| 17:20.25 | freemangordon | wpwrak: BTW speakers power amplifier is TPA2012 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa2012d2.pdf |
| 17:21.11 | wpwrak | thanks a lot ! |
| 17:22.12 | freemangordon | wpwrak: you should find a copy of L3_L4 SM |
| 17:22.39 | wpwrak | i have it, but didn't see that chip mentioned |
| 17:23.30 | freemangordon | it is, check on page 6-19 |
| 17:24.29 | wpwrak | any other things i've overlooked ? the mysterious digital mic ? the R&D LED driver, any of the buttons ? |
| 17:24.43 | wpwrak | oh, indeed. gotta read the fine print :) thanks ! |
| 17:25.20 | freemangordon | looking ATM |
| 17:26.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: audio amps got already specified, even in a ticket iirc |
| 17:26.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | or in more recent mail chatter between me and Nik |
| 17:27.12 | wpwrak | in other words, only you know where it is ;-) |
| 17:28.03 | freemangordon | :) |
| 17:28.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should search for that BOM.txt file, and ask for a lsmod |
| 17:28.10 | wpwrak | the problem of this project isn't that the information wouldn't exist but that it's in any of a few dozen different places, none of which are connected to each other. and it's just a question of time until also you will forget exact locations :) |
| 17:28.38 | freemangordon | wpwrak: BTW did you look at maemo wiki trying to find the missing components? |
| 17:28.41 | wpwrak | ah, ther's a bom.txt file ... looking ... |
| 17:28.53 | wpwrak | freemangordon: you mean this ? wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems |
| 17:29.39 | wpwrak | ah, RE-BOMtxt |
| 17:30.03 | freemangordon | yep, that page |
| 17:30.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | RE-BOM.txt is a copy of the tear down done by that company, mentioned at end of wiki7hardware/schematics |
| 17:30.47 | wpwrak | kewl. just what i needed. thanks ! :) |
| 17:31.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, I pointed you at that a week ago already |
| 17:31.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:N900_Hardware |
| 17:32.03 | wpwrak | i used that wiki extensively. but it's not as complete as i'd hope it to be. |
| 17:32.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic#References |
| 17:32.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Nokia_N900_Mobile_Phone-whatsinside_text-90.aspx |
| 17:32.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | original of RE-BOM.txt |
| 17:33.19 | dos1 | seems we have 95 devices + 4 prototypes secured so far |
| 17:33.42 | dos1 | not counting donations instructed, but not processed yet by GDC |
| 17:34.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | cool, please update frontpage status |
| 17:35.09 | freemangordon | that list is missing tk63115B-G LDO |
| 17:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 17:35.29 | wpwrak | about 50%. where is that LDO ? |
| 17:35.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems they were not perfect, eh? |
| 17:35.45 | wpwrak | grmbl. that should have been two lines |
| 17:36.15 | freemangordon | 2.8V V28_C according to SM |
| 17:36.22 | wpwrak | regarding LDOs and such, i also left out some of the minor chips in my block diagram. |
| 17:36.36 | dos1 | almost 18k EUR transferred |
| 17:36.37 | freemangordon | look at page 6-10 |
| 17:36.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a BLOCK diagram |
| 17:37.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: where from you get those numbers? |
| 17:37.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | my spreadsheet? |
| 17:37.25 | freemangordon | sure, but some chips have ??? as their value |
| 17:38.00 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: yup, augmented by data I'm collecting right now (like asking donors if they meant two donations for one device or for two of them etc.) |
| 17:38.20 | wpwrak | (LDO) ah, i see. yes that would be one of those below my inclusion threshold. basically everything that is clocks, power switching, power regulation, and virtually all of the passive components are not there |
| 17:38.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, not many to ask this |
| 17:38.56 | dos1 | yep, three |
| 17:39.40 | freemangordon | wpwrak: sure |
| 17:39.59 | freemangordon | though I *think* I can find what that magic mic is |
| 17:41.27 | wpwrak | i think the whole "number of devices" thing is a little bogus. the final number will change anyway (i.e., i'd expect most people to just wait in silence until we're ready to produce), so [...] |
| 17:41.32 | wpwrak | mic: Star Micronics MAB-03A-T-D1 :) |
| 17:42.39 | wpwrak | [...] it's a very very rough indicator (e.g., for component purchases) at best. i think the amount of money is far more important, because that's what in the end determines whether we can complete R&D or not |
| 17:43.10 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: question: those unobtainium connectors you found. what was their part number again ? |
| 17:44.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | 500246471 or somesuch |
| 17:44.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | please see ticket |
| 17:44.45 | wpwrak | which one ? |
| 17:44.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | display connector? |
| 17:45.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe not? |
| 17:46.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/536/ |
| 17:48.15 | wpwrak | found the SFH7744 (optical proxy sensor) as well |
| 17:48.39 | wpwrak | (5000246471) thanks ! |
| 17:50.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ |
| 17:51.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | (5000246471) hehe, this was from top of my head and actually seems correct |
| 17:52.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops, missed one zero |
| 17:52.52 | wpwrak | still not bad, for your age ;-) |
| 17:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: we also need a good estimation on how many devices to build. We can't build on shelf, and we can't start sourcing of some components as late as opening of webshop |
| 17:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha, age. Yeah, it's long ago already, no Alzheimer kicks in for those early memories |
| 17:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | but don't ask me when I got up this morning |
| 17:56.27 | wpwrak | (how many to build) yes, but also there, you have a large uncertainty margin because of all the "silent bystanders" |
| 17:56.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can't serve them |
| 17:56.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | simple as that |
| 17:57.03 | wpwrak | oh, but we want to, very much ;-) |
| 17:57.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh, but they will have to wait and hope for a second batch |
| 17:57.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and on second batch I bet the game will be absolutely the same, just way harder to source the critical components |
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| 18:13.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wb |
| 18:13.15 | infobot | It's great to be back! |
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| 18:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | plugs in evil hooker800 to PC, in a presumably futile effort tosomehow scavenge contacts from it |
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| 18:21.00 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ | 2013-11-04 - the day our fundraiser reached its goal, 25k EUR | 2013-12-02 - 200 devices reached! | 12-14 50035EUR, 232 units | 01-17 60kEUR, 300 units | 02-28 333 units, 70k€ | 03-28 350 units, 400 donations, 73555€ | 0501 360 410 75k |
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| 18:22.14 | wpwrak | (90% yield) yeah, if you're <90% (except for spinning up a run), that's not "poor yield" but "who let the kids into the fab ?" ;-) |
| 18:23.38 | wpwrak | (reworks) you call is "no go" i call it "an inevitable certainty" ;-) with a board that complex, there's virtually no way something nasty won't be overlooked. but it's also a very solvable problem. reworks are daily routine in the industry. |
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| 18:48.01 | wpwrak | "Balun Gray Dot On Top" cute ;-) |
| 18:57.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, prolly as good as ot gets |
| 18:58.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | it* |
| 18:59.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: I hardly see any feasible rework aka field change order for a device like GTA04/Neo900/N900 |
| 19:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not in China ;-) |
| 19:01.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | any hw bug is either squashed before MP or gets shipped. Or we're dead |
| 19:02.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | or are you talking about "reworks" like resoldering a tombstoned R or C or stuff like that? |
| 19:03.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | no systematic errors but manufacturing failures that can get fixed by manual rework |
| 19:05.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>something nasty won't be overlooked.<< suggests you indeed think we could solder a wire to retrofit that trace to ball D12 of that BGA we missed to layout |
| 19:05.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously won't fly |
| 19:06.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | in >90% of cases this isn't feasible, stuff like this needs to get weeded out before MP starts |
| 19:21.25 | wpwrak | let's worry about this when it happens :) there's usually a way to work around problems without having to crawl under BGAs. emphasis on "work around". sometimes you can't restore the intended functionality but do something else that's still good enough. but that really depends on each individual case. |
| 19:21.59 | wpwrak | anyway, on with the BOM. that's a lovely source of information :) |
| 19:27.20 | dos1 | wpwrak: if you do something - keep microblogging! ;) |
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| 19:43.22 | wpwrak | yeah, i will when i'm through with this. just two more part left i hope to identify ... |
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| 20:09.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | just holler! :-) |
| 20:10.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I prolly can tell you off top of my head |
| 20:12.16 | wpwrak | the "Microphone Interface", basically ESD plus some analog filter |
| 20:13.33 | wpwrak | also, the dual analog switch in the audio section appears to be a TS5A22366 though they don't have anything matching in the teardown |
| 20:14.00 | wpwrak | (I did see the two TS3DS26227 used for cam multiplexing) |
| 20:20.08 | wpwrak | TI or fairchild FSA859UCX |
| 20:25.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, sorry, no idea about microphone "interface" |
| 20:26.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's quite a number of those critters available |
| 20:27.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have to admit those analog switches, filters, ESD etc were too boring so I never looked into then in detail |
| 20:28.57 | wpwrak | hehe ;-) |
| 20:29.38 | wpwrak | well, this is one we'd actually want to clone with reasonable precision. the rest is much "dumber", just some zeners or such |
| 20:41.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | which do we want to clone? |
| 20:43.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | the microphone interface? Well, yeah kinda. But we could even clone it with discrete components, it's all in there every resistor and the Zeners/tranzorbs are pretty clear |
| 20:53.03 | wpwrak | yes, discrete is another option |
| 20:53.28 | wpwrak | (just back from watching the end of uk vs. uy. pretty wild :) |
| 20:55.06 | wpwrak | btw, latest version: http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/tmp/n900-wip-2014061917.pdf |
| 20:56.02 | wpwrak | and just found a few small graphics errors. fixing ... |
| 20:56.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | 30EUR true donation from USA \o/ |
| 20:57.14 | wpwrak | that's how many beers ? :) |
| 21:01.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops 30USD |
| 21:02.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | == 20EUR |
| 21:02.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's |
| 21:02.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~20/3 |
| 21:02.10 | infobot | 6.666666666667 |
| 21:02.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, 7 then |
| 21:02.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is a damn lot, more than I need in a month |
| 21:03.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's also almost 2 moths of neo900.org server |
| 21:04.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I'm very grateful, not only for the donation but also for the faith in the project |
| 21:05.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | and for working out that weird transatlantic money transfer stuff |
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| 21:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is of even higher value to us than the money |
| 21:07.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think it's fair to post that sending money from USA is now confirmed to work... well in two days |
| 21:07.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | our **first** money transfer directly from US iirc |
| 21:08.10 | wpwrak | found it. it's the EMIF02-MIC06F3 |
| 21:08.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about right |
| 21:08.42 | wpwrak | indeed. the "MIC" is a pretty nice hint. thanks, ST ;-) |
| 21:10.43 | wpwrak | for the US and Canada, SWIFT should work in most cases. people just need to "over-specify" the transfer. in .de, they'll simply ignore the noise. |
| 21:11.20 | wpwrak | by the way, there's another fun system: some banks have a SWIFT code (BIC) but are not connected to the network |
| 21:12.08 | wpwrak | you send money to them by first sending it to an account of an intermediary bank, with instructions to "manually" credit it to the final destination |
| 21:17.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's like international calls in the 1920s |
| 21:18.22 | wpwrak | yeah ;-) |
| 21:18.54 | wpwrak | HSBC Argentina uses that, too. probably to avoid sending money into the country. |
| 21:22.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | XOOM is lightning fast, eh? |
| 21:22.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ |
| 21:23.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, they make money with the fee, not with the interest from keeping the money |
| 21:24.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so the faster they are, the more money they can make ;-) |
| 21:28.54 | wpwrak | they could also make a little extra money by sitting on it for a while ;) |
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