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| 00:10.25 | Oksana | Quiet... |
| 00:12.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | busy |
| 00:34.09 | wpwrak | a dog that barks doesn't bite. and we have lots to chew :) |
| 00:35.20 | Oksana | Thank you :) I am questioning infobot. |
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| 06:14.24 | Oksana | Quiet... |
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| 06:34.52 | Oksana | Good night. |
| 06:41.50 | freemangordon | jonwil: hi! are you aware there is leaked ARM hexrays? :) |
| 06:42.22 | jonwil | I have it already :) |
| 06:42.50 | freemangordon | ih, so now /me expects REed phone-ui :P |
| 06:43.39 | freemangordon | too bad it doesn't support FP, but is waaay better than nothing |
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| 06:50.46 | jonwil | well I plan to dig deeper and see what I can do with a few of the bits I wanted to play with |
| 06:50.53 | jonwil | Not sure how deep down the rabbit hole I will go |
| 06:51.05 | freemangordon | jonwil: see on #maemo-ssu |
| 06:53.09 | jonwil | Will play with the cellular services daemon stuff again maybe |
| 06:53.13 | jonwil | and the connectivity UI |
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| 10:07.40 | jonwil | holy crap this is cool |
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| 10:21.01 | freemangordon_ | jonwil: ARM hexrays? |
| 10:21.27 | jonwil | yep |
| 10:21.48 | jonwil | because its a newer (and more accurate) decompiler its even better than the x86 version I have |
| 10:26.01 | freemangordon_ | :nod: |
| 10:29.05 | jonwil | going to dive back into the cellular services daemon I recon |
| 10:33.48 | Pali | jonwil: and pulseaudio-module-nokia-*? |
| 10:34.28 | jonwil | probably not those, even with ARM hexrays they are still a nightmare because arm hexrays doesn't do a thing for anything floating point and I know those will be full of floating point |
| 10:35.37 | Pali | cannot reuse some parts from pulseaudio-module-meego-*? |
| 10:36.16 | Pali | or sysinfo packages? |
| 10:36.42 | jonwil | cellular services daemon is where my interest lies |
| 10:36.49 | jonwil | so thats where I want to go next :) |
| 10:38.32 | Pali | also see packages isa-utils and cellmo-watch which are only in pr1.0 |
| 10:38.43 | Pali | maybe there is something interesting... maybe not |
| 10:52.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow, jonwil, Pali and freemangordon_, meeting of the giants :-D |
| 10:59.03 | freemangordon_ | jonwil: I guess that means you're not interested in helping me with nm-navigation-provider? |
| 10:59.30 | jonwil | not right now no, I want to play with the csd-sim plugin :) |
| 10:59.57 | freemangordon_ | ok |
| 11:02.02 | drathir | mornin... |
| 11:17.54 | jonwil | lol at the typo in the function isi_router_subscribe_indicatios in libtelcommon |
| 11:20.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: do you think you could give nolo a short shot and see what else except parboiled uboot is in there? |
| 11:21.08 | jonwil | where do I get a binary to feed into IDA? |
| 11:21.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | flasher extract fiasco-combined |
| 11:21.41 | jonwil | I dont have flasher access right now |
| 11:21.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | mompls |
| 11:22.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | fires up dd |
| 11:22.27 | jonwil | I will see what IDA makes of nolo |
| 11:23.44 | jonwil | also if it really does have uboot code in there isn't that a GPL violation? |
| 11:24.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# dd if=/dev/mtd0ro of=/home/user/MyDocs/mtd0_bootloader |
| 11:24.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | 256+0 Datensätze ein |
| 11:24.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | 256+0 Datensätze aus |
| 11:24.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | 131072 Bytes (131 kB) kopiert, 0,0287476 s, 4,6 MB/s |
| 11:28.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: seems I made a backup of my stuff at http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/mtd0_bootloader |
| 11:29.29 | jonwil | is the n900 big or little endian? |
| 11:39.13 | jonwil | hmmm without knowing the format of what I am looking at and where to point IDA to start disassembly, I cant do anything with that image file |
| 11:39.33 | jonwil | so back to csd-sim :) |
| 11:55.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | that is what ROM-bootloader will load and start |
| 11:56.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: can you help out jonwil about start addr in /dev/mtd0 ? |
| 11:57.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: first there's MLO aka XLoader in there |
| 11:57.27 | jonwil | yeah I think I saw that |
| 11:57.34 | jonwil | do I want big or little endian? |
| 11:57.43 | jonwil | little endian I think |
| 11:57.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly le |
| 11:58.25 | jonwil | ok, so now I need to figure out what to set up as RAM and ROM for this (i.e. what the memory map is) since I dont know |
| 11:59.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali and freemangordon_ had a closer look into the boot process of OMAP/ARMv7 |
| 11:59.33 | Pali | here are MTD offsets: https://gitorious.org/0xffff/0xffff/source/f898ac441112fd93001e6ad46890ed13fb6b3da2:src/local.c#L235 |
| 11:59.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I only know that MLO gets loaded to static RAM (64kByte?) |
| 12:00.00 | Pali | so you can extract xloader and secondary from mtd dump |
| 12:00.56 | Pali | x-loader loads secondary image at address 0x80400000 |
| 12:01.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | secondary aka NOLO |
| 12:02.53 | jonwil | so the secondary starts at offset 00004000 in the mtd0 that I have? |
| 12:02.57 | Pali | I heard that nolo components were created from elf files using objcopy -O binary |
| 12:03.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha, awesome |
| 12:03.21 | jonwil | or is that offset from the start of a full nand dump? |
| 12:03.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | that should be the same |
| 12:03.39 | jonwil | ok |
| 12:03.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ntd0 is first partition |
| 12:03.53 | Pali | jonwil: 0xffff using this code for creating mtd dump: https://gitorious.org/0xffff/0xffff/source/f898ac441112fd93001e6ad46890ed13fb6b3da2:src/local.c#L198 |
| 12:04.07 | Pali | it not using dd but nanddump |
| 12:04.14 | Pali | with lot of arguments!!!! |
| 12:04.25 | jonwil | hmmm ok |
| 12:04.31 | Pali | (which skip oob data and padding and lot of other) |
| 12:04.43 | jonwil | ok, so the dump I have isnt what I need then |
| 12:04.48 | jonwil | I need one made with nanddump |
| 12:05.00 | Pali | I think that dd on /dev/mtd will return also some oob and other garbage |
| 12:05.23 | Pali | above 0xFFFF code will create exact image as you flash into n900 |
| 12:06.42 | Pali | ~0xFFFF |
| 12:06.42 | infobot | it has been said that 0xffff is https://gitorious.org/0xffff/, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87996 |
| 12:07.18 | Pali | in second link is tarball with precompiled arm binary which I used on my n900 for creating dumps |
| 12:08.42 | Pali | $ 0xFFFF -t secondary -e |
| 12:09.03 | Pali | this should dump secondary image (NOLO) on n900 to current working directory |
| 12:09.17 | Pali | depends on nanddump binary |
| 12:09.47 | Pali | hmm... we already have 0xFFFF in Extras-devel: http://maemo.org/packages/view/0xffff/ |
| 12:10.06 | Pali | so no need to dig into that TMO tarball |
| 12:10.21 | Pali | just apt-get install 0xffff |
| 12:10.34 | jonwil | I dont have extras-devel enabled on my phone |
| 12:10.42 | Pali | it is in extras-testing too |
| 12:10.53 | jonwil | I dont have extras-testing enabled either |
| 12:10.54 | jonwil | plus my phone is about to run out of battery so I cant fiddle with it right now anyway |
| 12:11.03 | jonwil | need to plug it in for charging |
| 12:11.11 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ |
| 12:11.21 | Pali | and vote for packages http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/0xffff/0.6-1/ :-) |
| 12:19.25 | wpwrak | dos1: have you considered adding comcastify to neo900.org ? it seems that it would create a more professional user experience. http://theonion.github.io/comcastifyjs/ |
| 12:20.15 | dos1 | :D |
| 12:25.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN YOU APT-GET!!! |
| 12:25.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | The following packages have unmet dependencies: |
| 12:25.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:25.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:25.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | E: Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt-get -f install' with no packages (or specify a solution). |
| 12:26.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what you have to pay for getting speedyham |
| 12:27.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: sorry, I cannot install 0xFFFF |
| 12:33.41 | freemangordon_ | DocScrutinizer05: you need recent enough CSSU version in order to install speedyham :) |
| 12:34.06 | kerio | don't be so tsun-tsun, DocScrutinizer |
| 12:35.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, you need to disable cssu update to keep stuff like speedyham or procps |
| 12:36.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is exactly the reason why I don't update cssu any more |
| 12:45.42 | kerio | oic |
| 12:48.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: maybe I already saved some private stuff to my private directory "bootloader/" in fiasco+co |
| 12:49.26 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: hold on, isn't speedyham just a certain version onwards |
| 12:50.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I honestly dunno and don't care anymore. dependencies got just more messed up with CSSU instead of cleaning them up |
| 12:51.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | a system that breaks when I install procps since the crappyshittymessybox has a completely useless ps... unbearable |
| 12:52.14 | jonwil | ok, so I have nolo in IDA now but I dont know which byte is the first one executed |
| 12:52.36 | jonwil | I loaded the file at 80400000 |
| 13:01.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | yawn at |
| 13:01.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | W: GPG error: http://repository.maemo.org fremantle Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1382708562 KEYEXPIRED 1382708562 KEYEXPIRED 1382708562 |
| 13:01.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | W: GPG error: https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1349249546 KEYEXPIRED 1349249546 KEYEXPIRED 1349249546 |
| 13:01.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | W: You may want to run apt-get update to correct these problems |
| 13:02.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | planned obsolescence |
| 13:04.04 | kerio | i just deleted the keys so the messages are shorter |
| 13:04.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 13:05.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | embarrassing that my enable-catalogs script has a defunct trap |
| 13:06.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | # trap "e=$?; echo ${bn}: aborting with error $e; exit $e" ERR |
| 13:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already guess that it's not a great idea to have env vars in a trap this way, they get expanded at "compile time", not when trap catches |
| 13:07.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I don't see why /usr/local/sbin/enable-catalogs: trap: line 80: ERR: bad trap |
| 13:08.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | line 80 is obvious, that's my very special call to main() |
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| 14:08.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | on a sidenote: we finally got a legally compliant fineprint on http://neo900.org/donate |
| 14:09.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | it assures our donors thet they get the rebate and interest we promised |
| 14:09.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | that* |
| 14:09.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | technically we handle your donations as a credit |
| 14:10.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | VC credit |
| 14:10.30 | wpwrak | this sounds like newsletter material :) |
| 14:11.38 | wpwrak | shall we plan to write that bastard, say, early next week ? when dos1 has had his exam and a weekend to recover his strength ? |
| 14:11.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like a plan |
| 14:12.03 | wpwrak | dos1: that is, unless you plan to hop on a plane right after the exam :) |
| 14:14.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | we also need to publish that development of proto_V2 actually started |
| 14:14.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | 4 bb-xM secured |
| 14:14.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | contract with GDC signed |
| 14:14.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, "contract" |
| 14:16.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need to publish a more honest realistic timeline estimation as well |
| 14:16.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already mentioned that proto_V3 cannot start any earlier than February 2015 |
| 14:16.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | no way we ship series devices in Q4 |
| 14:17.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're 6 months late which is in line with the delay we suffered from damn reorg |
| 14:21.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and GDC available time to dedicate to Neo900 got diminished by project Pyra or whatever, something we didn't have on our radar a year ago when we sketched original timeline |
| 14:25.54 | wpwrak | yup. these are the main items to mention. we can keep ME aspects for the next newsletter, maybe 1-2 weeks later, when i'll have finished my scans |
| 14:26.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | didn't know we have ME aspect related news to publish |
| 14:26.40 | wpwrak | by then we'll also have some more detailed feedback on the hacklab |
| 14:26.52 | wpwrak | well, the scans. progress update ;) |
| 14:27.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | what we need to kick off last month is N900 spare parts sourcing campaign |
| 14:27.45 | wpwrak | it's the pcb side of ME. pcb outline and component placement (IR, for example. and there will probably be more critters that need to fit into some hole in the case) |
| 14:27.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't know how many to source, and we don't have the funds to do so |
| 14:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | (more critters) supposed to be result of proto_V1 |
| 14:29.23 | wpwrak | maybe have the items you listed for the next newsletter. let's keep it reasonably small, else it'll take days to finish (as happened before) |
| 14:30.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | we never get to where I want to be regarding newsletters, when we publish one every other month |
| 14:30.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | "keep it short" doesn't help |
| 14:30.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see why writing newsletters always is such a drama |
| 14:30.59 | wpwrak | (more critters) v1 seems more limited to me: the things that are actually in contact with the n900 elements. but there are also many that just shouldn't be in contact with n900 elements :) |
| 14:31.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
| 14:31.26 | wpwrak | i think if we keep them short and to the point, it'll be much less of a drama |
| 14:32.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | it seems that it's exactly this "keep them short and to the point2 that takes a week to get it right |
| 14:32.33 | wpwrak | and agreed, two months is too long. every ~2 weeks would sound reasonable. not too often (after all, we'll want to have something to report and not have to "milk" some minor or previously described things), but also not every once in a blue moon |
| 14:33.40 | wpwrak | the previous ones were a bit overloaded. too many topics, each complex. if we have one BIG topic, then there should be little else. if we have many, they should be small |
| 14:33.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | write down some quick and dirty stuff and *publish* it (after I had a cursory look at it and confirmed that it's ok) |
| 14:34.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | according to "Entschuldigen Sie den langen Brief, ich hatte keine Zeit fuer einen kuerzeren" |
| 14:34.35 | wpwrak | hehe ;-) |
| 14:36.04 | wpwrak | so, possible timeline: a) the things you listed above, but not the n900 parts. they'll need a bit of preparation. b) 1-2 weeks later, one for the n900 parts only. c) 1-2 weeks after that, ME, and what other things have come up until then. |
| 14:36.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | it makes no sense to wait 8 weeks to agree on a date so we 3 can co-author a *short* newsletter |
| 14:36.20 | wpwrak | for c) i'll also have the interactive block diagram :) |
| 14:36.36 | wpwrak | you can agree now ;-) |
| 14:36.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | timelines for newsletters have proven to be useless |
| 14:37.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | we had such timeline agreements like 4 times now |
| 14:37.45 | wpwrak | my main point is to keep the BIG item (n900 parts sourcing) away from the rest. the rest should be relatively painless. n900 parts sourcing will need all our attention. |
| 14:37.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | a timeline is useless when nobody *does* anything to make it happen |
| 14:38.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | then go ahead and draft something. awaiting your draft to check and approve it let#s say tomorrow? |
| 14:38.45 | wpwrak | well, we had a bit of chaos with vacations and exams, and parts 1 & 2 of the trilogy being frustratingly difficult to do |
| 14:39.15 | wpwrak | ok |
| 14:39.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it been frustratingly difficult since we already had way too much on our plate |
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| 14:39.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem is NOT (and never been) too many newsletters per time |
| 14:40.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | or too few topics |
| 14:43.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | how often I asked for "please write a 3 sentences newsletter about fact X" and nothing happened because it was considered "not enough" |
| 14:43.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | then when next newsletter actually been considered a ncessity, it suddenly been "too much" |
| 14:45.46 | Pali | jonwil: first instruction in secondary.bin is executed |
| 14:45.57 | Pali | it is branch somewhere |
| 14:46.10 | jonwil | ok, so first bytes in that file, got ya |
| 14:46.36 | wpwrak | i guess we should accumulate "a bit more than enough", then pick the best / most urgent. newsletter has two functions: progress report and announcements. urgent announcements should trump reports. |
| 14:47.06 | wpwrak | progress reports can wait. for to-the-minute reporting, we have IRC |
| 14:47.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:47.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need to get stuff out there when it's happening |
| 14:47.45 | wpwrak | that's how you end up with "not enough" |
| 14:48.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's actually up to prohect management to decide what's "enough" |
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| 14:49.06 | jonwil | ok, without a proper memory map (i.e. where code is, where data is, where, where stack is etc) so I can create usable segments in IDA, I dont think I can look at this properly |
| 14:49.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: you're aware that NOLO does set up all this on its own |
| 14:49.41 | wpwrak | i think we the newsletter should function like a weekly journal. if you want to know what just went "boom" in your city, you don't look for the spiegel print edition. but if you want regular updates on the big picture, you may choose that source of information. |
| 14:49.57 | wpwrak | anyway, lemme write that blurb ... |
| 14:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, our newsletters are no periodical |
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| 14:50.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | they are (or SHOULD be) event-driven |
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| 14:51.09 | jonwil | ok, so what exactly am I looking for in nolo? |
| 14:51.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: interesting details we didn't expect to find there and didn't know about already |
| 14:52.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | initialization stuff not to be found in uBoot |
| 14:52.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | details about flashing |
| 14:52.33 | wpwrak | from when does that Q4 estimate actually come ? was that something already pre-reorg or did it get set/moved later ? |
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| 14:53.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | it got changed from iirc Q3 eventually, during the early (pre-)reorg phase starting in March |
| 14:54.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | March till August are 6 months, and those 6 months are missing now, that's our delay we already have to cope with. Then we also see some slowdown compared to what we initially expected for progress speed |
| 14:54.58 | wpwrak | perfect, thanks ! |
| 14:55.49 | jonwil | I suspect my low-level knowledge of how you talk to hardware on ARM (i.e. hardware registers/memory spaces claimed by hardware/whatever it is) is not up to the task of reverse engineering nolo |
| 14:56.14 | wpwrak | well, we all know how it is with time estimates: ask an engineer for his best estimate. then add one. then multiply by two. finally, convert to the next higher unit. so "tomorrow" (= 1 day) means 4 weeks :) |
| 14:56.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: yeah, that's nasty |
| 14:57.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: depends. 24h +1h *2 ^^unit-conversion = 50 days |
| 14:57.56 | wpwrak | jake42: btw, very nice post you wrote to the hacklab list (when looking for someone to make a case part). thanks ! |
| 14:59.04 | wpwrak | (50 days) same order of magnitude ;-) |
| 14:59.07 | jonwil | I know how it works on other platforms including x86 and also the (rather obscure) 65816 CPU |
| 14:59.15 | jonwil | and I think 68000 too |
| 14:59.17 | jonwil | but not ARM |
| 15:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are register address ranges assigned to subsystems. and that rnage (set of offsets to particular registers) can have minimum 1 and maximum prolly 6 additional global offsets on top |
| 15:01.40 | jake42 | wpwrak: glad you like it :-) |
| 15:01.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least that's what I seen for mentorgraphics musb IP block when looking into hostmode hack |
| 15:01.50 | jake42 | lets see if something comes out of it |
| 15:02.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: it's perfectly suitable for a newsletter. Maybe one english sentence to explain what it is |
| 15:02.55 | wpwrak | seems that we may already have netted gurki :) |
| 15:03.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe |
| 15:03.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'll eventually meet him and discuss stuff en detail |
| 15:03.41 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: (suitable) you're talking about jake42's post ? |
| 15:03.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 15:04.17 | wpwrak | jake42: is it "public" enough to reference in our newsletter ? |
| 15:04.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, it is |
| 15:04.33 | wpwrak | ah wait, it'll expire very soon |
| 15:04.56 | wpwrak | already gone |
| 15:04.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already checked that before I asked "please make this a new page on Neo900.org and link to it from "careers" " |
| 15:06.19 | wpwrak | "careers" sounds a bit exaggerated :) it's more like "gigs" :) |
| 15:06.31 | jake42 | wpwrak: pastebin expired? |
| 15:08.15 | wpwrak | yes. "hidden Posting 9289c1f9 from anonymous posted at 2014-09-16 14:52:41 expires: 2014-09-17 14:52:41" |
| 15:08.38 | wpwrak | apparently UTC or such, not local time, for here it's 12:08 |
| 15:09.49 | jake42 | must have been utc+2 |
| 15:10.00 | jonwil | I also discovered that I still cant figure out com.nokia.phone.SIM.get_service_provider_info more than I did in the past even with all my new tools |
| 15:11.56 | jake42 | wpwrak: I can make another one or send it to contact@ |
| 15:13.11 | wpwrak | something with a URL would be ideal |
| 15:13.25 | jonwil | only 3 ways that is ever going to be figured out, 1.Leak/discovery of code/docs (for example versions of those isi docs that used to be out there which contain the info I need), 2.Nokian (or ex-Nokian) somehow coming out of the woodwork and sharing info or 3.Someone reverse engineering the baseband firmware |
| 15:13.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | jake42: send to contact@ please |
| 15:13.40 | jonwil | I suspect onoe of those 3 will ever happen so I may as well give up :P |
| 15:16.02 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@g069.tum.vpn.lrz.de) |
| 15:23.50 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: didn't get to donate yesterday :( but am doing it now :) |
| 15:25.54 | mvaenskae | now how much to pledge though :) |
| 15:26.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | as much as you can spare. We're short on funds (or will be, in a 2..3 months) |
| 15:27.13 | mvaenskae | ouch, shortage of funds doesn't sound good :( |
| 15:27.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | also the amazing 2%/month interest are only on the donation amount |
| 15:28.12 | mvaenskae | i was contemplating on buying a laptop but the thinkpads will get their touchpad buttons back next generation so i will not buy one now for sure... but study fees are arriving soon |
| 15:29.28 | mvaenskae | but 2 - 3 months isn't february; is proto_v3 in jeopardy? |
| 15:37.20 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: will there be any further planned prototypes after v3? |
| 15:37.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | i'd not say jeopardy, we just need to raise more funds for V3 |
| 15:38.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | planned, nope. We *hope* to start mass production after V3. But that's what V3 is for to tell us if we're ready to do so |
| 15:39.16 | mvaenskae | ok, i will try to see if i can find people interested in the neo900 in my courses :) |
| 15:39.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: when donations continue to come in at current rate, we might actually have enough funds at that point in time. and I hope for donations seing a new peak after we show V2 results |
| 15:41.29 | mvaenskae | that is good news, if it goes until february/march there might be 600 devices to produce if we get lucky :) |
| 15:42.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | one of the problem is we're starting to source risk components already, which is something we didn't plan for in our original business plan. Another thing that hurts us is delay which results in increased recurring cost for the whole project |
| 15:43.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, 600 devices looks like |
| 15:43.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems like it's a valid guess |
| 15:43.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're rapidly approaching 400 ATM |
| 15:47.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | our original cost estimations for device based on a 25kEUR needed for R&D, financed by an estimated 200 devices. Now if we go to 600 devices, R&D can go up to 75kEUR and device still doesn't go more expensive. Right now we think we will stay under 75kEUR for R&D regardless of increased costs due to above mentioned issues. |
| 15:49.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW the *relative* device price will even go down, despite increased cost of R&D. This however doesn't mean we know for sure what will be the pricetag in the end and if it actually can be <700EUR, that been a very early estimation particularly not accounting for actual BOM cost etc |
| 15:52.18 | mvaenskae | donated and sent email, payment might reach you until monday though :) |
| 15:52.52 | mvaenskae | oh, it should already reach you on friday, today is wednesday, not thursday \o/ |
| 15:53.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks! |
| 15:54.31 | mvaenskae | no thanking me :) thank me if i can bring in more people that donate ;) |
| 15:54.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: we now safely can state "reserve one device for you" under "donations" |
| 15:55.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: thnks to new fineprint |
| 15:56.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | since we officially offer a slot in preorder list now in return of a >=100EUR "donation" |
| 15:57.00 | mvaenskae | if the total price was below 700 euro it would be great, you could offer it as an iphone competitor ;) |
| 15:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's still our goal, yes. But we cannot promise anything yet, see above |
| 15:59.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | we also don't know about actual cost of R&D till the end until we done it |
| 15:59.16 | mvaenskae | but 75k is a huge amount of money |
| 15:59.38 | mvaenskae | i think for a completely new device that's rather cheap though :) |
| 16:00.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually not for a device of this compelxity. 6 proto_V2 boards incl R&D needed to get there from pre_V2 are already ~20kEUR |
| 16:01.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | eventually wpwrak will publish an updated detailled business plan |
| 16:01.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | originally we only had a 5 lines estimation from Nikolaus |
| 16:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | (above quoted 20kEUR does not include the expenses for running Neo900 UG group, it's mere cost for getting the boards built) |
| 16:04.23 | *** join/#neo900 ddark (~ddark@31.154.241.158) |
| 16:05.56 | mvaenskae | indeed, totally forgot about those |
| 16:05.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | original estimations been based on everybody doing volunteer work for free (as in beer) basically. This wasn't sustainable and we changed that a 2 months or so ago, since the project turned into full time for more than one person |
| 16:06.06 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: a biz plan is a tad more involved than what we have now and i'm not really sure you want to wait until i learn how to do that :) |
| 16:06.27 | wpwrak | but we have the financial estimates for R&D, which are a tiny bit of a biz plan |
| 16:07.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, we publish what we got. How you name the thing is another question |
| 16:07.12 | wpwrak | hehe ;-) |
| 16:08.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | in two days this channel exists exactly one year. Time to celebrate and have some decent info about state of things |
| 16:11.31 | wpwrak | time to get a fireworks permit ;-) |
| 16:13.10 | *** join/#neo900 roottoor (~100010010@c-76-21-83-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:18.08 | jake42 | shoot some $$$ into the air :-) |
| 16:18.54 | mvaenskae | shoot some $$$ into development D: |
| 16:19.00 | mvaenskae | much more needed |
| 16:19.20 | mvaenskae | i take it the dual modem setup is from the table, right? |
| 16:19.26 | jake42 | yeah, was just kidding ;-) |
| 16:19.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, we'll simply use that reel with several 100s of 220uF elcos I scavanged from OM junk heap and connect those critters to 220V mains ;-) |
| 16:19.53 | jake42 | that'll do |
| 16:20.26 | mvaenskae | elcos? |
| 16:21.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | electrolytic capacitors |
| 16:21.33 | mvaenskae | is 220uF a lot? |
| 16:21.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | quite, for SMD |
| 16:22.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | those things are almost size of a sugar cube |
| 16:22.43 | mvaenskae | how much energy is stored there? |
| 16:22.55 | wpwrak | erm, where are we now with NFC ? what nik wrote didn't sound overly enthusiastic |
| 16:23.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | 220As/v |
| 16:23.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: yeah, we need to gently push him |
| 16:24.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you read my answer? |
| 16:24.20 | wpwrak | i'm trying to figure out what you mean there :) |
| 16:24.44 | wpwrak | so the SIM card acts as the "secure core". |
| 16:25.05 | wpwrak | i have a hard time with this, though: "and contact the one-wire serial communication to that unused SIM pin" |
| 16:25.37 | wpwrak | the manual shows an SPI-like interface: SIGOUT, SIGIN, SIG_CLK |
| 16:25.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's how NFC chip connects to SIM as secure element |
| 16:25.50 | wpwrak | and doesn't mention SIMs |
| 16:26.38 | wpwrak | the only reference to that connection i found browsing through the pn532 documents is that spi-like interface |
| 16:27.11 | wpwrak | no mention of telephony coexistence either |
| 16:27.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ic-on-line.cn/download.php?id=1698663&pdfid=95F70B32A8CE7F4EDBE287FEA56A3511&file=0350%5Cpn544_2767746.pdf |
| 16:28.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | PMUVCC A8 Power SIM Power in from mobile PMU |
| 16:29.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | SIMVCC B8 Power SIM Power out to UICC |
| 16:32.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/09/17/plasma-desktoprR1987.png |
| 16:32.56 | wpwrak | but we'll use the PN532, right ? |
| 16:33.22 | mvaenskae | what is this "secure" channel you are talking about? |
| 16:34.58 | *** join/#neo900 roottoor (~100010010@c-76-21-83-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:35.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | we should use the PN5xx chip that best meets our needs |
| 16:35.47 | wpwrak | the pn532 user manual briefly talks about the SAM (page 90) but that's again sigin/sigout/clad (sic_clk) |
| 16:36.11 | wpwrak | so what are the requirements from the SIM side ? |
| 16:36.21 | wpwrak | which SIMs do we support ? |
| 16:36.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: it's a communication channel to SIM card that allows secure card functions in SIM serving as authentication etc for NFC applications like POS payment etc |
| 16:37.14 | wpwrak | or which systems (which would include a suitable SIM) ? |
| 16:37.19 | mvaenskae | nfs payment... only the neo900 i wouls trust with it :) |
| 16:37.27 | mvaenskae | s/nfs/nfc/ |
| 16:38.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | N9 missed on that sibgle trace to SIM so users were disappointed it cannot do those usecases they hoped for |
| 16:40.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't know which existing "ecosystems" use this, I already mentioned it seems they are not to be found in Germany a lot. They are more widespread in Asia and America it seems |
| 16:40.24 | wpwrak | i don't know much about all that NFC stuff. so you can enable the SIM from your telephone operator for, say, mifare ? |
| 16:40.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems some operators offer such SIMs, yes |
| 16:40.58 | wpwrak | hmm. sounds as if we don't have a clear use case then |
| 16:41.01 | dos1 | AFAIK here in Poland banks plan to introduce some mobile NFC stuff next year |
| 16:41.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | (clear usecase) do we ever have such thing for any of the more exciting features of Neo900? |
| 16:42.23 | drathir | dos1: orange have working now nfc i guess in poland...? |
| 16:42.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway it seems other phones implement it this way, so Neo900 should as well |
| 16:42.39 | drathir | its carier dependent? |
| 16:42.41 | dos1 | there's trend of rebranding banks to use GSM careers names, which looks like a beginning of longer nfc strategy |
| 16:42.43 | mvaenskae | include a time travelling chip and it would sell like hot bread on a sunday morning |
| 16:42.53 | dos1 | drathir: well, no idea tbh, I don't use that |
| 16:43.40 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: what i wonder is whether there's some additional element to it what the others have and we won't. it all seems that NFC is full of proprietary solutions. so we'd be excluded by definition. |
| 16:43.54 | drathir | because if transver data over network that carier should be responsable, or banks if they provide app which be using nfc... |
| 16:43.58 | wpwrak | hence i wonder whether it even makes sense to pretend to "have" it |
| 16:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | no additional element |
| 16:44.48 | wpwrak | no system-specific application or such ? |
| 16:45.02 | dos1 | drathir: afaik it's an app that runs on SIM, so it is dependent on what operator installs on your SIM |
| 16:45.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 16:45.30 | mvaenskae | is the nfc solution dependant on the sim though? would otherwise make for a great key if using nfc to open your home doors :) |
| 16:46.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, NFC is absolutely functional without SIM support |
| 16:46.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | except security features provided by "secure element" |
| 16:46.34 | dos1 | yup - that's mobile banking via NFC that requires SIM |
| 16:46.36 | mvaenskae | great, which standard is it though? afaiu there are different ones out there :/ |
| 16:46.57 | dos1 | or stuff like that |
| 16:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ic-on-line.cn/download.php?id=1698663&pdfid=95F70B32A8CE7F4EDBE287FEA56A3511&file=0350%5Cpn544_2767746.pdf |
| 16:47.35 | wpwrak | it would seem that there are two completely separate modes of operation then: a) without SIM: do what you want, but it won't work with any of the "official" systems. b) with SIM: where the SIM+NFC combo basically acts as key, without any other user interaction |
| 16:47.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | not quite |
| 16:48.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | a) isn't incompatibe to "official systems" and b) is only one mode of several the chip supports |
| 16:49.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the two fundamentally distinct modes are a) card and b) reader |
| 16:49.30 | wpwrak | i mean that a) will not interoperate with their security architecture, unless the latter is broken |
| 16:50.06 | wpwrak | okay, so we have a) DIY card, b) "key" card, c) reader ? |
| 16:50.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's the purpose of "their security architecture" that it only works with officially issued SIM or secure cards |
| 16:50.38 | wpwrak | yes, exactly |
| 16:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, |
| 16:51.02 | drathir | dos1: thanks a lot... never using nfc... |
| 16:51.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | b) "key" card is something you can usually do with the chip alone |
| 16:51.25 | mvaenskae | dos1: how are your exams going on? :) |
| 16:51.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | see http://www.ic-on-line.cn/download.php?id=1698663&pdfid=95F70B32A8CE7F4EDBE287FEA56A3511&file=0350%5Cpn544_2767746.pdf about the modes it provides |
| 16:52.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it knows MiFare internal and with external secure element iirc |
| 16:53.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | >> When configured in card emulation mode, PN544 supports both integrated Mifare Classic solution (optional) and all card modes supported by both PN544 and present phone SIM or separate secure element. Supported modes are pictured on this page.<< |
| 16:53.54 | wpwrak | yes, but what do they mean ? :) |
| 16:54.03 | wpwrak | executive summary, please :) |
| 16:54.14 | wpwrak | that's probably some 10k+ pages of standards |
| 16:59.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | we only deliver the hardware which will work as intended by chip manuf and under 100% control of APE to comply with our requirements regarding privacy and security. Which protocols the users use in whatever usecase scenario isn't my concern |
| 17:00.03 | *** join/#neo900 nicksydney (~quassel@130.136-26-211-net25.dynamic.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) |
| 17:00.25 | wpwrak | hmm, so it's basically "implement the reference design, ship it, and hope for the best". hmm. sweet memories ;-) |
| 17:00.48 | *** join/#neo900 kolp (~quassel@55d4560d.access.ecotel.net) |
| 17:00.48 | *** join/#neo900 drathir (~kamiljk8@s51.linuxpl.com) |
| 17:00.48 | *** join/#neo900 DocScrutinizer51 (~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 17:00.48 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v DocScrutinizer51] by rajaniemi.freenode.net |
| 17:01.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're free to dive into it, all the way to the gory ground |
| 17:01.14 | wpwrak | well, at least better than wasting time to engineer something "nice". so the cost if basically that of adding the chip and making al the recommended connections. |
| 17:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 17:01.50 | wpwrak | (dive in) naw, i'd drop it if it isn't well specified ;-) |
| 17:02.09 | *** join/#neo900 ddark (~ddark@31.154.241.158) |
| 17:02.09 | *** join/#neo900 xe4l (~unknown@162.243.112.233) |
| 17:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't see any specification lacks |
| 17:02.58 | *** join/#neo900 ds2 (noinf@rehut.com) |
| 17:03.28 | wpwrak | ;-) anyway, so it seems the PN532 won't do, since it doesn't have that SIM interface. alas, the documentation is less than candid or complete |
| 17:03.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | a 2we don't implement that since we can't be a***d to read the 10k pages of documentation" is no option anyway |
| 17:05.22 | wpwrak | well, we don't have to match samsung and apple feature list item by feature list item ... |
| 17:06.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe not, but we won't drop features of technology we implement, just because we don't know of a special usecase or understand every detail of how it works |
| 17:06.43 | wpwrak | nik mentioned the TRF7960/TRF7970. any opinion on these ? |
| 17:07.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, it has no linus support basically, and also no secure element support, afaik |
| 17:07.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nik's notion is "then community shall write drivers for it!" |
| 17:08.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I beg to differ |
| 17:09.45 | mvaenskae | not if there are 10k pages docs ;) |
| 17:10.07 | wpwrak | (secure element) that would raise the question of why a direct connection is required. other than for convenience, it would seem that this channel wouldn't have any special requirement. well, maybe there's no "sim tunnel" protocol on the modem side. |
| 17:11.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly, such protocol doesn't exist |
| 17:13.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and actually this is supposed to work without battery even |
| 17:13.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui |
| 17:14.05 | wpwrak | hmm, public data sheet of the pn544 is a joke :-( |
| 17:15.02 | wpwrak | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFC-WI talks about 2 wires ... |
| 17:15.41 | wpwrak | "The SWP specification is currently under discussion of the ETSI SCP and not finalized yet". well, data sheet is from 2007, so ... |
| 17:19.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Wire_Protocol |
| 17:22.15 | wpwrak | they explicitly mention card emulation with NFC WI, but don't say anything about card emulation and SWP |
| 17:22.46 | wpwrak | do you have more up to date or more detailed documentation ? that data sheet lacks a lot of things |
| 17:23.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/09/17/plasma-desktopKO1987.png |
| 17:23.49 | *** join/#neo900 paulk_ (~paulk@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 17:24.06 | wpwrak | yes, but does it support card emulation when connected with SWP ? |
| 17:24.18 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-leonov (~paulk-fre@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 17:24.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | SWP C7 PWR SWP connection |
| 17:24.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | card emulation? |
| 17:25.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously SWP is meant for the sole pupose to communicate to SIM |
| 17:25.32 | wpwrak | "NFC WI in card emulation mode" |
| 17:26.00 | wpwrak | so we just assume it'll work |
| 17:26.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't we always? |
| 17:26.59 | wpwrak | next: the external components, pages 25 and 26 in the data sheet whose link you posted three times |
| 17:27.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm NOT going to evaluate that chip right here and now |
| 17:27.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually afk, got some RL stuff to do |
| 17:28.27 | wpwrak | i guess we can try to steal these from the PN532 data sheet, which has component values |
| 17:28.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I pulled that link I posted here 3 times out of my bookmarks |
| 17:29.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's roundabout 10 months since I looked into it last time |
| 17:29.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | bbl |
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| 17:39.35 | wpwrak | now ... let's see how many fires are there waiting to be fought in the bom ... (luckily, most of the time it's just a question of searching for an alternative source) |
| 17:46.00 | wpwrak | a new kid on the block :) http://www.chip1stop.com/ ("an arrow company" ... seems that not only element14 are on a shopping tour) |
| 17:47.05 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-leonov (~paulk-fre@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 17:49.48 | wpwrak | hmm, INA231A gone from the world until end of october, LP55231 only at chip1stop (and in a few weeks back at mouser), MSL0201RGB lost in space, as expected |
| 17:52.43 | wpwrak | nothing too worrisome |
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| 17:57.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just recall we have another aspect that's not covered by block diagram so far: optional digital video output |
| 17:57.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | completely up to further R&D to see what could get done there |
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| 18:11.32 | *** join/#neo900 roottoor (~100010010@c-76-21-83-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 18:34.07 | wpwrak | is that "mention it to nik and see what he thinks ?" |
| 18:44.39 | gurki | DocScrutinizer05: well. if there is no other way you could just grab the internal display signal using a splitter and add a rgb/whateverthisdisplayisdrivenwith to hdmi chip |
| 18:44.45 | gurki | talking bout < 10 bucks here |
| 18:44.59 | gurki | quickndirty, but ll work |
| 18:45.22 | gurki | only becomes a problem if u wanna ve res > full hd |
| 18:45.40 | gurki | but i guess that soc is too slow for > full hd anyway |
| 18:48.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | gurki: yes, basically that's what we planned to do. Though HDMI might not be the first choice, depends on licening/patent/royalty situation as well as availability of both the chip and the docs |
| 18:49.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | the other question is the mere physical connector |
| 18:49.11 | gurki | docs? this really is nothing youd need docs for *g* |
| 18:49.17 | gurki | copy the data sheet schematic and ure fine |
| 18:49.22 | gurki | :) |
| 18:49.33 | gurki | (at least this is what i did. and it works jsut fine) |
| 18:49.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | micro-USB is just low profile enough to embed it to the spacer frame |
| 18:49.58 | gurki | well. dont know a smaller connector than minihdmi ... |
| 18:50.27 | gurki | minivga is just as big. and will die pretty soon |
| 18:50.57 | gurki | microusb _should_ ve the same height than minihdmi. not sure on this though |
| 18:51.06 | gurki | as* |
| 18:51.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: (is that...) basically yes |
| 18:54.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | gurki: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/502/ |
| 18:54.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: ^^^ |
| 18:54.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | though there been a lot more in ML |
| 18:55.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc slimport chip been vaporware |
| 18:57.19 | mvaenskae | why not display port? isn't it royalty free? |
| 18:57.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally we seem to need a two-stage approach: first convert/encode the LCD signal (RGB) to a compressed format like HDMI, then convert HDMI to e.g. slimport |
| 18:58.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlimPort |
| 18:59.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | there seems to be only slimport (sibling to displayport ?) and MHL wich could get routed via micro-USB |
| 19:01.06 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@83.240.177.174) |
| 19:02.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort is waaay too large |
| 19:03.30 | wpwrak | wouldn't the "canonical" approach MHL and then something like this ? http://www.amazon.com/Menotek-Adapter-IMPROVED-Protocol-Sensation/dp/B005F9W6DU |
| 19:04.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course |
| 19:04.50 | wpwrak | #s/approach/approach be/ |
| 19:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | we looked into it, dinno where it happened, prolly ML |
| 19:05.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno* |
| 19:05.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | also dunno if we looked into micro-DP already |
| 19:07.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally you face a) royalty issues, to the point where you need to join a nasty club (with hefty fees) to get access to the datasheets etc. And you face vaporware |
| 19:07.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | the latter been b) which I missed |
| 19:09.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | even worse, regarding "join a club", you may have to get approval of your design to obtain the chips, so you couldn't build and sell a copy-bit killer device |
| 19:10.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaah I think the whole story is buried in the 2000 posts tmo thread |
| 19:12.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 |
| 19:19.01 | wpwrak | ah, nasty club. one more :-( where are those anti-trust laws when you need them ? |
| 19:20.50 | gurki | eh. dafuq. |
| 19:21.07 | gurki | i think i got adapters from and to kinda like anything around. including datasheets |
| 19:21.11 | gurki | didnt sign anything |
| 19:21.23 | gurki | (talking bout chips here) |
| 19:21.27 | gurki | feel like u exaggerate a bit |
| 19:34.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't exaggerate, I quite facts |
| 19:34.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | quote* |
| 19:35.16 | wpwrak | gurki: getting chips is one thing, using them in a commercial product quite another one ... |
| 19:35.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | to make full use of the HDMI chip(?) we checked, you need to be member of the club. Otherwise you only may use the reduced set of "free" functions, and that's not dicumented iirc but only a driver available for it |
| 19:37.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you have decent fatasheets fro whatever chip related to digital vidoe, please share them. Much appreciated |
| 19:37.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | data* |
| 19:38.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 plus next roundabout 50 to 100 posts is probably covering most of our findings |
| 19:39.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc I even quoted emails we received from 7805 "manuf" which tells us "forget it, never came true" |
| 19:39.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I say we need a 2-stage design |
| 19:40.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have plain raw digital RGB, not any encoded signal (MPEG and the like) |
| 19:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's more than enough for one day now, and I'm again 4h late even to my own weird schedule, to start my day |
| 19:41.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | so bbl - maybe |
| 19:42.47 | wpwrak | meanwhile, most other people where DocScrutinizer05 lives ask themselves if there's anything they still want/need to do before going to bed ;-) |
| 19:43.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ps: if I still recall the bottom line of the discussion in January/February, we agreed on trying to implement VGA on a sort of (Neo900-)proprietary connector, and offer (plans for) an adapter to VGA-proper |
| 19:44.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't get anything better than *maximum* 800*720p out of OAMP3 anyway |
| 19:45.06 | wpwrak | bwahaha |
| 19:45.13 | ddark | wonders about http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-AA-AV2N12B-US-compatible-selective/dp/B007W1KES8 can it be just analog signal at those 12 pins ? |
| 19:45.37 | wpwrak | i squeezed 1024x768 out of a lowly ben. at the cost of one UBB, half a VGA cable, and a few resistors ;-) |
| 19:45.55 | *** join/#neo900 roman (~roman@253.204.broadband9.iol.cz) |
| 19:45.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, maybe still |
| 19:46.01 | wpwrak | this is how you do it ;-) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/web/ |
| 19:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | not video at any reasonable framerate |
| 19:46.42 | wpwrak | 50 Hz refresh :) but agreed, the cpu was quite busy just refreshing ;-) |
| 19:47.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | video framebuffer bus and DSP and GPU and everything blows chunks on more than 800*480 to 800*720 |
| 19:47.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | for 800*720 playback you already need to overclock N900 |
| 19:48.22 | wpwrak | ah, you're talking about video playback. with decoding and all that. |
| 19:48.55 | wpwrak | who would want that anyway ? :) a desktop with a few xterms, now that would be something ! :) |
| 19:49.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | quits and leaves the audience to reading the tmo thread |
| 19:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | no use in re-iterating all arguments pro and con a 5th time |
| 19:50.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | been there, heard that |
| 19:56.30 | wpwrak | the joy of cell phone tracking, revisited: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/09/tracking_people_3.html |
| 20:05.00 | *** join/#neo900 norly (~norly@enpas.org) |
| 20:06.38 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: and that is the reason i pledged today for a neo900 :) i rather decide myself when i am trackable and when not ;) |
| 20:10.03 | wpwrak | yeah, the whole spying stuff is really getting out of hand. also lovely: the NZ government was caught (well, exposed) with its pants down, mere days before the next elections, spying on their own people (via the NSA) |
| 20:11.42 | *** join/#neo900 freemangordon (~freemango@46.249.74.23) |
| 20:13.36 | mvaenskae | the nsa, friendly neighbourhood watch, free of charge :) |
| 20:19.17 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-leonov (~paulk-fre@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 20:21.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | bb#1 arrived |
| 20:23.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | with an address label with colored "ebay[TM]" logo on it |
| 20:23.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 20:23.56 | wpwrak | neat :) |
| 20:24.31 | wpwrak | so we need to find ~2 more |
| 20:28.49 | wpwrak | ah, there's even a company in argentina that lists them. out of stock, though. lovely price: about USD 530 ;-)) |
| 20:29.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | "2NB28 \n D9PKC" PoP |
| 20:29.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | "M" ?? |
| 20:30.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Micron? |
| 20:30.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least he TPS65950 looks familiar |
| 20:31.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | DVI-jack ;-P |
| 20:31.37 | mvaenskae | wpwrak: argentina has a trade embargo, d'uh! |
| 20:32.03 | wpwrak | mvaenskae: self-inflicted, yes |
| 20:32.56 | wpwrak | well, things are usually expensive here. when you import something, there are about 50% taxes and fees on it. so when a company sells imported stuff, it's usually at least twice the US price |
| 20:32.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | slaps self for still not owning a DVI cable |
| 20:33.01 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-leonov (~paulk-fre@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 20:34.34 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: hdmi <-> dvi adapater should suffice? |
| 20:35.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | wt is THIS? Mini[!!]-USB tagged "OTG" |
| 20:35.31 | mvaenskae | hehe |
| 20:36.43 | mvaenskae | i am baffled by how long micro has lived up, shouldn't we have at least picco if using the lifetime of the mini? |
| 20:37.07 | wpwrak | wasn't that possible at some point in time ? i.e., before the USB ministry of truth decided to rewrite history, eradicating all traces of the "mini" connector ? |
| 20:37.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | mini been a prototype who failed |
| 20:38.02 | wpwrak | wow. it had a long and prosperous life for a failed prototype ;-) |
| 20:39.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wish I had 4 posts to mount to the holes marked "standoff" |
| 20:40.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, S-video |
| 20:40.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | better, maybe I have a plug for that |
| 20:40.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe not |
| 20:40.33 | freemangordon | comeon |
| 20:41.35 | freemangordon | I wont believe you don't have cinch<->cinch |
| 20:41.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? |
| 20:41.49 | freemangordon | oh, s-video |
| 20:41.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | S-Video != CVBS |
| 20:42.07 | freemangordon | my bad, i was thinking about composite |
| 20:42.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | back to yer bag!!! |
| 20:42.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | doc needs breakfast |
| 20:48.59 | mvaenskae | where would you put the svideo in? |
| 20:49.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | the uSD slot in giving me idead about custom connectors of extremely low profile |
| 20:49.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | to my TV? |
| 20:50.22 | mvaenskae | oh right... TVs, stuff i will throw out immediatly |
| 20:50.28 | mvaenskae | i hate TVs |
| 20:57.08 | *** join/#neo900 roottoor (~100010010@c-76-21-83-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 21:11.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I more and more wonder what's the true differences between my TV, my monitor and an iMac |
| 21:12.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I guess the major difference is: I don't own any iMac and my monitor is usually connected to a PC, my TV more infrequently |
| 21:12.17 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 21:12.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | the TV is more often connected to the N900 |
| 21:12.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | since my monitor foesn't have CVBS-in |
| 21:13.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and N900 no VGA-out |
| 21:13.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooooh, and the TV has an IR remote |
| 21:14.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | *my* monitor doesn't yet |
| 21:20.05 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@host221-110-dynamic.24-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 21:20.15 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
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| 21:55.03 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: the TV is the device that allows the GEZ to bill you extreme sums :) |
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| 22:04.31 | *** join/#neo900 norly (~norly@enpas.org) |
| 22:09.53 | jonwil | so yeah I dont know how far my n900 reverse engineering is going to go, I wont be doing anything that is super-low-level (since I dont have the know-how to do hardware stuff, i.e. bootloader/kernel/firmware/etc), I wont be doing anything heavy on the floating point (since my new tools dont help with that) and I dont currently have a n900 dev environment so that will limit how far I go in... |
| 22:09.55 | jonwil | ...terms of cloning things |
| 22:10.48 | jonwil | still plenty of places I can go though, cellular services daemon (figuring out more of the undocumented dbus calls and for each cellular services daemon dbus call which blobs are using it) |
| 22:12.08 | jonwil | or wlan stuff (figuring out what you would need to do to be able to replace the whole wlan system with new system that supports e.g. wlan security stuff not currently supported |
| 22:12.26 | jonwil | or going back to libconnui and friends |
| 22:12.46 | jonwil | and the whole connectivity UI |
| 22:12.59 | freemangordon | eapd? |
| 22:13.02 | jonwil | or maybe some of the powervr libs, see what they look on |
| 22:13.26 | freemangordon | that is full with NEON code IMO |
| 22:13.58 | jonwil | I didn't see anything nasty last time I looked |
| 22:14.07 | jonwil | in any case the goal is not to clone eapd |
| 22:14.14 | jonwil | but to document all the things external it touches |
| 22:14.22 | jonwil | so a new thing can touch the same things |
| 22:14.38 | freemangordon | wouldn;t it be easier/more sane to clone it? |
| 22:15.00 | jonwil | not really no, eapd is a beast and like you said possibly neon stuffs |
| 22:15.18 | freemangordon | oh, I was talking about powervr drivers :) |
| 22:15.24 | freemangordon | (NEON) |
| 22:15.28 | jonwil | oh ok |
| 22:15.33 | jonwil | maybe powervr drivers do have neon |
| 22:15.35 | jonwil | I dont know |
| 22:15.36 | freemangordon | but sure, eapd is some ~100k binary |
| 22:15.54 | jonwil | if I look at them I will cross that bridge when I come to it |
| 22:15.57 | freemangordon | though there is lots of string is it |
| 22:16.01 | jonwil | #1 goal would be the 2D parts |
| 22:16.04 | jonwil | for powervr |
| 22:16.15 | jonwil | i.e. the bits that the x stuff talks to |
| 22:16.38 | jonwil | not the opengl 3D parts (which aren't as much used on n900 I believe) |
| 22:16.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | mvaenskae: (GEZ) nah, they charge a head-poll nw |
| 22:17.42 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: ah, right, not in CH though, suckers want like 300 eur a year for owning a TV... how about NO |
| 22:19.04 | jonwil | What a great way to encourage piracy, it doesn't cost 300eur if you download your TV from BitTorrent... |
| 22:19.59 | jonwil | Here in oz we dont have a license fee thankfully |
| 22:20.53 | freemangordon | anyway, it is late here, going to have some sleep. night guys |
| 22:21.10 | jonwil | we do have a government that wants to gut the government-owned ad-free broadcaster (the ABC) though (probably because the ABC is the one doing the most to talk about the bad things the government is doing) |
| 22:21.35 | jonwil | anyhow, I am sure I will find some interesting things to play with re n900 stuff |
| 22:23.16 | jonwil | Having a dev environment would be nice but I dont have one anymore (the one I used to have was an ancient Pentium 4 with an even more ancient CRT monitor and it wasn't worth moving such ancient hardware to the other side of the country) |
| 22:23.43 | jonwil | I did grab a copy of all the files on the thing before I decommissioned it though |
| 22:24.25 | jonwil | There is (or was) a windows-hosted VM for n900 dev, no clue how usable it would be though |
| 22:36.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | the ALS of N900 is crap. Way too directional |
| 22:37.26 | DocScrutinizer51 | I woner how hard it had been to make the window of ALS opaque |
| 22:38.53 | DocScrutinizer51 | so ALS doesn't test the brightness of the ceiling but actually the brightness on surface of display (or next to it) |
| 22:40.45 | DocScrutinizer51 | always drives me mad when I sit under a ceiling which is dark but has bright spot lamps. Tilting N900 a 10 degrees can change backlight by two levels and switch on/off the kbd backlight |
| 22:42.33 | DocScrutinizer51 | a pity we cannot easily fix this for Neo900 |
| 22:43.28 | DocScrutinizer51 | prolly usingfront cam would yield better results than ALS |
| 22:44.15 | DocScrutinizer51 | idly wonders how much energy front cam is using |
| 22:46.16 | Oksana | You really need translations... DocScrutinizer05on a sidenote: we finally got a legally compliant fine-print on http://neo900.org/donate |
| 22:46.17 | Oksana | Dragon Pyra is ... something. A bit larger (5 inch screen), a bit more powerful (and power-hungry, too), unknown storage, undecided cellular-GPS modem. No sensors, no IR, no radio, no camera, no RFID. Unknown colour of keyboard back-light. Has stylus slot. |
| 22:46.19 | Oksana | There are some NFC usecases around. PayWave, and such. dos1AFAIK here in Poland banks plan to introduce some mobile NFC stuff next year |
| 22:46.20 | Oksana | Well, we should help banks to get Linux-Maemo-Mer apps working. drathirbecause if transver data over network that carier should be responsable, or banks if they provide app which be using nfc... |
| 22:46.22 | Oksana | Features are good.DocScrutinizer05maybe not, but we won't drop features of technology we implement, just because we don't know of a special usecase or understand every detail of how it works |
| 22:47.00 | DocScrutinizer51 | yeah I know oit's actually power here, however I'm more interested in energy per timespan which is kinda similar to average power |
| 22:51.02 | DocScrutinizer51 | Oksana: what the heck? you'll eventually get klined for flooding ;) Maybe send the lines as you write them, not in a burst of like 8 lines |
| 22:51.52 | Oksana | Well, I was sleeping, and then I was reading the history... But yes, I could send the lines as I write them. |
| 22:52.02 | DocScrutinizer51 | I think after 12 lines idoru kicks in |
| 22:52.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | and idor is merciless :) |
| 22:52.46 | Oksana | I should ask them whether open-source (non-proprietary) applications are possible. Visa payWave for Mobile is available for Visa Issuers, mobile network operators (MNOs), mobile device manufacturers, and third-party wallet providers looking to develop proprietary applications. |
| 22:52.49 | DocScrutinizer51 | idoru* |
| 22:54.46 | DocScrutinizer51 | just wonders how sercure elemt feature of NFC could sinergizewith a dual-SIM design |
| 22:56.40 | *** join/#neo900 roman (~roman@253.204.broadband9.iol.cz) |
| 22:58.45 | Oksana | Not "Visa Issuers", not MNOs, not "wallet providers"... Could approach them from position of "mobile device manufacturer" (Neo900). Rrr... For a vendor new to Visa Technology Program, Visa charges $3000 for registration processing. This is a one-time fee. |
| 23:00.36 | Oksana | Or could make an app for an existing Visa Issuer, and then the Visa Issuer would probably provide access to Visa payWave for Mobile. |
| 23:16.38 | *** join/#neo900 Svetlana (quasselcor@freenode/staff/gry) |
| 23:21.50 | Oksana | Nokia's phones previously certified by Visa: 603, 610, 808, 822, 920. That's all... |
| 23:30.14 | DocScrutinizer51 | I bet those all had the one-wire communication to SIM |
| 23:40.24 | DocScrutinizer51 | s/SIM/SIM / |
| 23:41.04 | DocScrutinizer51 | or a hardcoded identity in ROM and a chip that supports challenge-response auth against such identity token |
| 23:41.41 | DocScrutinizer51 | I wonder what apple is going to do |
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