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00:22.41 | arossdotme | is away: Away |
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00:29.57 | Oksana | Moin |
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03:01.34 | uhhimhere | so just wondering |
03:01.51 | uhhimhere | did the old n900 have a dts for its hardware? |
03:33.47 | Oksana | dts ? |
03:36.09 | uhhimhere | nvm : http://elinux.org/N900#Kernel_Status |
03:36.13 | uhhimhere | device tree source |
03:36.21 | uhhimhere | thats good that its almost all there |
04:07.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think the N900 maemo kernel was pre-DT |
04:27.34 | MonkeyofDoom | haha |
04:27.36 | MonkeyofDoom | way pre-DT |
04:28.01 | MonkeyofDoom | I'm running upstreamish 3.8 at which point I think it n900 wasn't DT-ready |
04:28.45 | MonkeyofDoom | -it |
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05:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc freemangordon made DT "work" only with 3.12 plusminus a few |
05:11.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# uname -a |
05:11.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | Linux IroN900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l GNU/Linux |
05:20.33 | uhhimhere | so will the neo900 have a dts |
05:20.56 | uhhimhere | so that users can compile whatever vanilla they want |
05:20.58 | uhhimhere | for fun |
05:22.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask freemangordon, for example |
05:22.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know, Neo900 ships without much of a OS anyway. Up to community to port whaever OS they like to have on it |
05:23.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yes, the FPTF is aiming at running kernel >3.1x on Neo900, I'm not sure how it will pan out for maemo but it will provide your DTS for sure |
05:23.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
05:23.58 | infobot | i guess fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
05:26.35 | uhhimhere | also out of curiosity why go with a powervr based SoC when more readily hacked gpu alternatives like vivante and adreno exist |
05:26.50 | uhhimhere | is it availability |
05:38.29 | uhhimhere | also the mali ones are there as well |
05:38.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, where's our faq#why_omap3 |
05:39.54 | uhhimhere | http://neo900.org/faq#touch |
05:39.57 | uhhimhere | found it |
05:39.59 | uhhimhere | still |
05:40.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://pandoralive.info/?p=2808 |
05:40.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | and rather http://neo900.org/faq#cpu |
05:41.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | which actually has the comprehensive set of reasons to stay with OMAP3 |
05:45.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP4 is pretty much deprecated by me since it has SiErr I don't want to work around in hardware. And it's already unclear if it would be really sw-compatible on a binary level to N900 |
05:45.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | OMAP5 is actually too large to get it fit into Neo900 |
05:46.22 | uhhimhere | i understand the whole SoCs arent OTS |
05:46.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and any non-OMAP architecture is a complete nogo when we wanna stay compatible |
05:46.36 | uhhimhere | but dont they have surplus? |
05:46.48 | uhhimhere | these companies of past generation SoCs? |
05:46.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? |
05:47.06 | uhhimhere | i dont know lying around in a warehouse somewhere |
05:47.16 | uhhimhere | obviously they dont make just enough |
05:47.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | what are you talking about? |
05:47.26 | uhhimhere | surplus |
05:47.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | of what? |
05:47.34 | uhhimhere | SoCs |
05:47.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | errr |
05:47.46 | uhhimhere | from past generation |
05:48.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | you want a OMAP2? |
05:48.41 | uhhimhere | no |
05:49.03 | uhhimhere | but neither do i want quadcore superflex snapkrait with duplexing gigaflops |
05:49.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | then you should be happy with OMAP3, no? |
05:49.39 | uhhimhere | but i could also be happy with the rbpi processor |
05:50.03 | uhhimhere | again because of the open documentation of the GPU |
05:50.07 | uhhimhere | people could work on it |
05:50.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, people could work with Neo900 without even using the GPU |
05:50.35 | uhhimhere | aws talking to a guy last night on rbpi dev |
05:50.55 | uhhimhere | thinks the rbpi v3d has 192 cores |
05:51.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we actually have 2D drivers, only 3D is closed source, though recently leaked |
05:51.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not interested in the number of GPU cores |
05:52.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're perfectly happy when the closed blob GPU driver of maemo works on Neo900 |
05:54.37 | uhhimhere | im not talking leaked see page 89-90 : http://www.broadcom.com/docs/support/videocore/VideoCoreIV-AG100-R.pdf |
05:54.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#gfx |
05:55.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not talking about broadcom. The name alone makes me shudder |
05:57.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | please understand that our choice of SoC was not because of but rather despite of the the GPU it comes with |
05:57.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | we had other criteria to choose our SoC |
05:58.02 | uhhimhere | yeah compatibility wise i suppose it shouldnt be a problem since theyre bot ARM |
05:58.28 | uhhimhere | i know availability is a main concern |
05:58.37 | uhhimhere | because SoCs arent OTS |
05:59.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you think SWoC == CPU + GPU, you're quite mistaken |
05:59.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no idea what's OTS |
05:59.28 | uhhimhere | off the shelf |
05:59.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, please read http://neo900.org/faq#cpu |
05:59.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing to add to this |
06:00.31 | ds2 | just a wild ass, not thought out idea - how painful powerwise is it to use one of those FPGA w/Cortex A cores? |
06:01.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | generaly FPGA are power hogs |
06:01.12 | uhhimhere | DocScrutinizer05: thats great and all then question is why even bother messing with the SoC... just keep the old one |
06:01.42 | ds2 | i know in general...but is one of those FPGA w/hard cores akin to using an Allwinner SoC or is it magnitudes worse then that |
06:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | why keep the old one when we can use a faster one while staying 100% compatible? |
06:01.52 | ds2 | a FPGA would solve some of the GPU issues |
06:02.10 | ds2 | and SoCs ARE OTS |
06:02.17 | uhhimhere | because its not that much faster, and compatibility is theoretical |
06:02.32 | uhhimhere | only allwinner |
06:02.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy |
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06:03.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | go buy a OMAP3530 then. GTA04 using DM3730. Period |
06:03.10 | ds2 | did I hear someone claiming compatibility between the DM3730 and the OMAP3430 is only theoretical? |
06:03.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah ;-P |
06:03.46 | uhhimhere | well until something is actually implemented it is theoretical isnt it |
06:03.49 | ds2 | I don't have a cluebat big enough to address that one.... |
06:04.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I ran binaries from N900 on N950/N9 - both have OMAP3730 |
06:04.27 | ds2 | if you design the board right, you can just swap those 2 chips around |
06:04.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | or 3630, who knows |
06:05.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: thanks! |
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06:05.21 | ds2 | IIRC, the key thing is a few bypass caps |
06:05.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
06:06.04 | uhhimhere | ds2: are there any non allwinners that are ots? |
06:06.08 | ds2 | what I am curious is - how are you handling the MIPI stuff? |
06:06.22 | ds2 | uhhimhere: virtually all SoCs re OTS |
06:07.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | MIPI? as in SSI/HSI, camera, that crap? |
06:08.06 | ds2 | that and the display |
06:08.16 | ds2 | IIRC, the N900 uses MIPI for the display |
06:08.17 | uhhimhere | ds2: which shelf? |
06:08.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are crappy specs publicly available. There are linux drivers available, there are application notes / schematics available |
06:08.31 | ds2 | public app notes? |
06:08.48 | ds2 | official docs are lacking, IIRC unless that has change in the last year or so |
06:08.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, schematics, like BB, N900, etc |
06:09.14 | ds2 | ah. gotcha |
06:09.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | the display stuff of N900 will be what we use in Neo900 pretty much 100% cloned |
06:10.20 | ds2 | oh...not crossing the bridge when the N900 displays dry up? |
06:10.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | proto_v2 for testing this - among others |
06:10.31 | ds2 | 'k |
06:10.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | N900 displays are not that unique like they seem to be |
06:12.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | and there's a number of other displays people connected to OMAP3 successfully |
06:12.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | not suggesting we could use them in Neo900 |
06:12.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | just saying video bus isn't a miracle |
06:13.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | despite MIPI pita |
06:14.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I think the OMAP TRM should have sufficient info to connect any compatible display to the SoC, without referencing to any unobtainium MIPI specs |
06:16.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video |
06:16.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | only this CVBS signal |
06:17.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it at least was RGB |
06:17.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | but noooo, they mix it chip-internal |
06:18.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | S-Video is as good as it gets with this stuff |
06:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually |
06:20.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and in this dmain the chips we could use are really a PITA |
06:20.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | doman* |
06:20.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang |
06:21.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | digital video is infested with NDA and royalties |
06:21.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | and vaporware chips |
06:22.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | . |
06:22.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ n8 |
06:35.45 | uhhimhere | ds2: so where can I buy a single non-allwinner SoC |
06:35.49 | uhhimhere | which shelf |
06:37.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | digikey |
06:37.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | mouser |
06:37.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | arrow |
06:39.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | or, for the more recent ones, you need to find the subcontractors that got support by the big guys to build modules with the SoC |
06:39.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't buy a OMAP5 chip, only modules |
06:41.33 | uhhimhere | they only have FPGA modules |
06:41.44 | uhhimhere | i dont want to build an arm core |
06:41.59 | uhhimhere | i want say an OM3730 or whatever |
06:42.10 | uhhimhere | thats what i mean ots |
06:43.23 | uhhimhere | whatever youre talking about |
06:43.27 | uhhimhere | where can i buy it |
06:43.32 | uhhimhere | other than the allwinner |
06:44.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ti.com/product/DM3730/samplebuy check the "Buy from authorized distributor" column |
06:45.08 | uhhimhere | hey they got surplus units |
06:45.10 | uhhimhere | cool |
06:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=dm3730&start=0&limit=10 |
06:45.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | now n8 |
06:47.55 | uhhimhere | so what was ED complaining about on his website? |
06:48.18 | uhhimhere | http://pandoralive.info/?p=2808 |
06:48.27 | uhhimhere | theyre obviously readily accessible |
06:50.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* |
06:50.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | he wasn't looking for an OMAP3 |
06:51.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | try find an OMAP5 and you might understand what's written on that page |
06:51.30 | uhhimhere | so why isnt omap5 available ? |
07:06.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>They explained to me that in order to be able to use the Tegra, I need to let the hardware be designed and produced by a contracted partner [of their choice]. << |
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11:51.37 | uhhimhere | so will the neo900 have the ability to put out hdmi? |
11:52.02 | uhhimhere | just to save cables on both the a & v |
11:52.10 | uhhimhere | so much easier to have just 1x output |
11:56.52 | kerio | in all likelyhood, no |
11:57.13 | uhhimhere | why not? |
11:58.17 | uhhimhere | just wont fit into the theme of keeping it the same as the n900? |
12:02.28 | kerio | because there's no digital video ut |
12:02.29 | kerio | out |
12:03.54 | uhhimhere | what would it take to have digital video out( i know this isnt even standard on newer phones but then again video out isnt even standard) |
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12:19.53 | sixwheeledbeast | Why have a digital out on a device with 800x480? |
12:21.18 | uhhimhere | well the digital out res wouldnt be tied to the lcd input |
12:21.28 | uhhimhere | it would be whatever the silicon could handle |
12:23.59 | uhhimhere | and based on this : http://www.ti.com/product/dm3730 |
12:24.02 | uhhimhere | 720p |
12:26.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-01-11 Sun 07:16:35] <DocScrutinizer05> what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video |
12:26.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ... |
12:27.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-01-11 Sun 07:19:22] <DocScrutinizer05> for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually |
12:27.27 | uhhimhere | but i thought this wasnt an OMAP3 SoC/ |
12:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno what you thought |
12:28.18 | uhhimhere | ok so the DM3730 is an OMAP 3 |
12:30.48 | uhhimhere | ok so youre saying neo900 doesnt have HDMI because it was decided that having to switch one off while the other is on is not acceptable? |
12:31.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-01-11 Sun 07:20:38] <DocScrutinizer05> and in this domain the chips we could use are really a PITA <DocScrutinizer05> digital video is infested with NDA and royalties |
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12:35.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 |
12:39.36 | uhhimhere | these guys seem to be able to get away with it at a $150 pricepoint : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCW_Zero |
12:39.47 | uhhimhere | i know its not a phone |
12:39.54 | uhhimhere | but its still a community sourced device |
12:43.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | so? |
12:44.05 | uhhimhere | so what are they doing to keep royalties down |
12:44.28 | uhhimhere | find that out and maybe it could be viable |
12:45.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe you tell us? |
12:46.30 | uhhimhere | lol ok so pride is the reason |
12:46.36 | uhhimhere | fair enough |
12:49.35 | kerio | wat |
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12:50.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.ingenic.cn/en/?product/id/5.html |
12:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry when i'm not interested in wasting more time on somebody who refuses to contribute |
12:52.05 | uhhimhere | digital video is infested with NDA and royalties |
12:52.51 | uhhimhere | so youre saying just by going with MIPS theyve manage tocircumvent royalties? |
12:53.19 | uhhimhere | and NDAs? |
12:53.30 | uhhimhere | come on |
13:02.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I shared fine links to comprehensive dicussion and latest info on the topic. When you're not wlling to read, don't expect spoonfeeding |
13:03.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly I'm feeling like wasting my time |
13:05.22 | uhhimhere | im just saying forwarding a 227 page thread as an answer isnt really an answer |
13:06.27 | uhhimhere | how much more would the neo900 cost with HDMI out |
13:07.41 | uhhimhere | from what youve said the issue is having to choose between the onscreen display and digital out |
13:07.46 | uhhimhere | for the DM implementation |
13:07.50 | uhhimhere | which i think is fine |
13:21.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're just saying that you're too lazy to read the very post and follow-ups dealing with exactly this topic, in an admittedly long thread. Sorry I'm out |
13:23.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | either that or your browser is too stupid to jump to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 instead of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 |
13:23.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | either way, I'm out. I don't feel like taking bashing and offensive arguing |
13:24.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | with somebody who doesn't even care to find out what's DM3730 |
13:25.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry when I assume you're not, and prolly never will be, a customer of Neo900, since the device quite obviously isn't up to your requirements |
13:27.16 | uhhimhere | what requirements i have an n900 and its a good device, always wished for it to have digital out |
13:29.17 | uhhimhere | never thought it was that slow or anything especially since you could overclock it |
13:29.35 | uhhimhere | and i am really excited for a neo900 |
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13:48.30 | uhhimhere | DocScrutinizer05: alright i talked to the devs over at gcw and it seems none of them know anything about the hardware, everything was reverse engineered |
13:48.40 | uhhimhere | they have no cad files etc |
13:49.00 | uhhimhere | they just went to the factory said this is what we want and got a pcb prototyped |
14:05.44 | uhhimhere | and btw i will buy it if it comes out |
14:16.02 | uhhimhere | as long as everything about the hardware designs made open |
14:16.06 | uhhimhere | cad schems etc |
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15:11.11 | Openbot | Just a wild idea : today i repaired a chineese tablet (mtk) and was surprised to find 2 cpu's inside though i am not sure about that as it might be a gpu but it was written mediatek as in soc's i see genrelly |
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15:12.47 | Openbot | Is it a coprocesser compensating for somethimg or booster and can the neo have something like that |
15:13.25 | Openbot | Kauboik_;) |
15:14.16 | mvaenskae | Openbot: maybe a picture/part number would clear up what the chip was :) |
15:14.31 | Openbot | \kabouik |
15:15.04 | Openbot | \kabouik_ |
15:15.20 | Kabouik_ | \Openbot. |
15:16.01 | Openbot | Thanx ;) |
15:17.10 | Openbot | Na i had little time to fix the speakers doused in oil :p |
15:17.39 | Openbot | Mvaenskae^ |
15:19.49 | mvaenskae | Openbot: but now you have plenty, right? :D |
15:20.08 | Openbot | It can be awsome if theres a second processor that can be used by apps videos if needed |
15:21.00 | Openbot | Mvaenskae ? I didnt get that rephrase pls :) |
15:22.48 | Openbot | Mvaenskae docscrutnizer05 can i /query you |
15:25.04 | Openbot | Anybody i need help on my messed up irc acc |
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15:39.19 | Openbot | Meh |
15:39.34 | Openbot | I cant |
15:40.13 | Openbot | Time tm query fire brigade |
15:54.06 | Openbot | Done :D |
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23:46.00 | Oksana | Good morning. Did the 15 domesheets from Gerry arrive? |
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