IRC log for #neo900 on 20150111

`00:09.51`	`*** join/#neo900 arossdotme (~astr@79-69-206-107.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)`
`00:22.41`	`arossdotme`	`is away: Away`
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`00:29.18`	`arossdotme`	`is back (gone 00:06:36)`
`00:29.57`	`Oksana`	`Moin`
`01:43.42`	`*** join/#neo900 b1101 (~b@fsf/member/b1101)`
`01:51.21`	`*** part/#neo900 Dry_Lips (~cuneiform@unaffiliated/dry-lips/x-3531376)`
`02:58.20`	`*** join/#neo900 uhhimhere (~uhhimhere@1.9.99.169)`
`03:01.34`	`uhhimhere`	`so just wondering`
`03:01.51`	`uhhimhere`	`did the old n900 have a dts for its hardware?`
`03:33.47`	`Oksana`	`dts ?`
`03:36.09`	`uhhimhere`	`nvm : http://elinux.org/N900#Kernel_Status`
`03:36.13`	`uhhimhere`	`device tree source`
`03:36.21`	`uhhimhere`	`thats good that its almost all there`
`04:07.36`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`I think the N900 maemo kernel was pre-DT`
`04:27.34`	`MonkeyofDoom`	`haha`
`04:27.36`	`MonkeyofDoom`	`way pre-DT`
`04:28.01`	`MonkeyofDoom`	`I'm running upstreamish 3.8 at which point I think it n900 wasn't DT-ready`
`04:28.45`	`MonkeyofDoom`	`-it`
`04:47.39`	`*** join/#neo900 demure (~demure@demuredemeanor.com)`
`05:10.30`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`iirc freemangordon made DT "work" only with 3.12 plusminus a few`
`05:11.56`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`IroN900:~# uname -a`
`05:11.58`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`Linux IroN900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l GNU/Linux`
`05:20.33`	`uhhimhere`	`so will the neo900 have a dts`
`05:20.56`	`uhhimhere`	`so that users can compile whatever vanilla they want`
`05:20.58`	`uhhimhere`	`for fun`
`05:22.07`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`ask freemangordon, for example`
`05:22.40`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`you know, Neo900 ships without much of a OS anyway. Up to community to port whaever OS they like to have on it`
`05:23.50`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`but yes, the FPTF is aiming at running kernel >3.1x on Neo900, I'm not sure how it will pan out for maemo but it will provide your DTS for sure`
`05:23.58`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`~fptf`
`05:23.58`	`infobot`	`i guess fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308`
`05:26.35`	`uhhimhere`	`also out of curiosity why go with a powervr based SoC when more readily hacked gpu alternatives like vivante and adreno exist`
`05:26.50`	`uhhimhere`	`is it availability`
`05:38.29`	`uhhimhere`	`also the mali ones are there as well`
`05:38.47`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`dang, where's our faq#why_omap3`
`05:39.54`	`uhhimhere`	`http://neo900.org/faq#touch`
`05:39.57`	`uhhimhere`	`found it`
`05:39.59`	`uhhimhere`	`still`
`05:40.06`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`http://pandoralive.info/?p=2808`
`05:40.31`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and rather http://neo900.org/faq#cpu`
`05:41.23`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`which actually has the comprehensive set of reasons to stay with OMAP3`
`05:45.14`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`OMAP4 is pretty much deprecated by me since it has SiErr I don't want to work around in hardware. And it's already unclear if it would be really sw-compatible on a binary level to N900`
`05:45.43`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`OMAP5 is actually too large to get it fit into Neo900`
`05:46.22`	`uhhimhere`	`i understand the whole SoCs arent OTS`
`05:46.35`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and any non-OMAP architecture is a complete nogo when we wanna stay compatible`
`05:46.36`	`uhhimhere`	`but dont they have surplus?`
`05:46.48`	`uhhimhere`	`these companies of past generation SoCs?`
`05:46.54`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`huh?`
`05:47.06`	`uhhimhere`	`i dont know lying around in a warehouse somewhere`
`05:47.16`	`uhhimhere`	`obviously they dont make just enough`
`05:47.23`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`what are you talking about?`
`05:47.26`	`uhhimhere`	`surplus`
`05:47.32`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`of what?`
`05:47.34`	`uhhimhere`	`SoCs`
`05:47.42`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`errr`
`05:47.46`	`uhhimhere`	`from past generation`
`05:48.01`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`you want a OMAP2?`
`05:48.41`	`uhhimhere`	`no`
`05:49.03`	`uhhimhere`	`but neither do i want quadcore superflex snapkrait with duplexing gigaflops`
`05:49.25`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`then you should be happy with OMAP3, no?`
`05:49.39`	`uhhimhere`	`but i could also be happy with the rbpi processor`
`05:50.03`	`uhhimhere`	`again because of the open documentation of the GPU`
`05:50.07`	`uhhimhere`	`people could work on it`
`05:50.28`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`well, people could work with Neo900 without even using the GPU`
`05:50.35`	`uhhimhere`	`aws talking to a guy last night on rbpi dev`
`05:50.55`	`uhhimhere`	`thinks the rbpi v3d has 192 cores`
`05:51.14`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and we actually have 2D drivers, only 3D is closed source, though recently leaked`
`05:51.34`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`we're not interested in the number of GPU cores`
`05:52.11`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`we're perfectly happy when the closed blob GPU driver of maemo works on Neo900`
`05:54.37`	`uhhimhere`	`im not talking leaked see page 89-90 : http://www.broadcom.com/docs/support/videocore/VideoCoreIV-AG100-R.pdf`
`05:54.59`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`http://neo900.org/faq#gfx`
`05:55.23`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`I'm not talking about broadcom. The name alone makes me shudder`
`05:57.02`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`please understand that our choice of SoC was not because of but rather despite of the the GPU it comes with`
`05:57.25`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`we had other criteria to choose our SoC`
`05:58.02`	`uhhimhere`	`yeah compatibility wise i suppose it shouldnt be a problem since theyre bot ARM`
`05:58.28`	`uhhimhere`	`i know availability is a main concern`
`05:58.37`	`uhhimhere`	`because SoCs arent OTS`
`05:59.13`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`when you think SWoC == CPU + GPU, you're quite mistaken`
`05:59.24`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and no idea what's OTS`
`05:59.28`	`uhhimhere`	`off the shelf`
`05:59.54`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`again, please read http://neo900.org/faq#cpu`
`05:59.59`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`nothing to add to this`
`06:00.31`	`ds2`	`just a wild ass, not thought out idea - how painful powerwise is it to use one of those FPGA w/Cortex A cores?`
`06:01.08`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`generaly FPGA are power hogs`
`06:01.12`	`uhhimhere`	`DocScrutinizer05: thats great and all then question is why even bother messing with the SoC... just keep the old one`
`06:01.42`	`ds2`	`i know in general...but is one of those FPGA w/hard cores akin to using an Allwinner SoC or is it magnitudes worse then that`
`06:01.50`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`why keep the old one when we can use a faster one while staying 100% compatible?`
`06:01.52`	`ds2`	`a FPGA would solve some of the GPU issues`
`06:02.10`	`ds2`	`and SoCs ARE OTS`
`06:02.17`	`uhhimhere`	`because its not that much faster, and compatibility is theoretical`
`06:02.32`	`uhhimhere`	`only allwinner`
`06:02.33`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`ohmy`
`06:02.41`	`*** join/#neo900 b1101 (~b@fsf/member/b1101)`
`06:03.09`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`go buy a OMAP3530 then. GTA04 using DM3730. Period`
`06:03.10`	`ds2`	`did I hear someone claiming compatibility between the DM3730 and the OMAP3430 is only theoretical?`
`06:03.29`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`yeah ;-P`
`06:03.46`	`uhhimhere`	`well until something is actually implemented it is theoretical isnt it`
`06:03.49`	`ds2`	`I don't have a cluebat big enough to address that one....`
`06:04.22`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`I ran binaries from N900 on N950/N9 - both have OMAP3730`
`06:04.27`	`ds2`	`if you design the board right, you can just swap those 2 chips around`
`06:04.33`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`or 3630, who knows`
`06:05.03`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`ds2: thanks!`
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`06:05.21`	`ds2`	`IIRC, the key thing is a few bypass caps`
`06:05.28`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`yep`
`06:06.04`	`uhhimhere`	`ds2: are there any non allwinners that are ots?`
`06:06.08`	`ds2`	`what I am curious is - how are you handling the MIPI stuff?`
`06:06.22`	`ds2`	`uhhimhere: virtually all SoCs re OTS`
`06:07.15`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`MIPI? as in SSI/HSI, camera, that crap?`
`06:08.06`	`ds2`	`that and the display`
`06:08.16`	`ds2`	`IIRC, the N900 uses MIPI for the display`
`06:08.17`	`uhhimhere`	`ds2: which shelf?`
`06:08.19`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`there are crappy specs publicly available. There are linux drivers available, there are application notes / schematics available`
`06:08.31`	`ds2`	`public app notes?`
`06:08.48`	`ds2`	`official docs are lacking, IIRC unless that has change in the last year or so`
`06:08.57`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`well, schematics, like BB, N900, etc`
`06:09.14`	`ds2`	`ah. gotcha`
`06:09.51`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`the display stuff of N900 will be what we use in Neo900 pretty much 100% cloned`
`06:10.20`	`ds2`	`oh...not crossing the bridge when the N900 displays dry up?`
`06:10.25`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`proto_v2 for testing this - among others`
`06:10.31`	`ds2`	`'k`
`06:10.48`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`N900 displays are not that unique like they seem to be`
`06:12.21`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and there's a number of other displays people connected to OMAP3 successfully`
`06:12.37`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`not suggesting we could use them in Neo900`
`06:12.52`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`just saying video bus isn't a miracle`
`06:13.20`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`despite MIPI pita`
`06:14.38`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`actually I think the OMAP TRM should have sufficient info to connect any compatible display to the SoC, without referencing to any unobtainium MIPI specs`
`06:16.35`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video`
`06:16.46`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`only this CVBS signal`
`06:17.19`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`if it at least was RGB`
`06:17.40`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`but noooo, they mix it chip-internal`
`06:18.26`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`S-Video is as good as it gets with this stuff`
`06:19.23`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually`
`06:20.38`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and in this dmain the chips we could use are really a PITA`
`06:20.43`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`doman*`
`06:20.49`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`dang`
`06:21.27`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`digital video is infested with NDA and royalties`
`06:21.38`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and vaporware chips`
`06:22.06`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`.`
`06:22.09`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`o/ n8`
`06:35.45`	`uhhimhere`	`ds2: so where can I buy a single non-allwinner SoC`
`06:35.49`	`uhhimhere`	`which shelf`
`06:37.33`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`digikey`
`06:37.43`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`mouser`
`06:37.57`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`arrow`
`06:39.05`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`or, for the more recent ones, you need to find the subcontractors that got support by the big guys to build modules with the SoC`
`06:39.30`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`you can't buy a OMAP5 chip, only modules`
`06:41.33`	`uhhimhere`	`they only have FPGA modules`
`06:41.44`	`uhhimhere`	`i dont want to build an arm core`
`06:41.59`	`uhhimhere`	`i want say an OM3730 or whatever`
`06:42.10`	`uhhimhere`	`thats what i mean ots`
`06:43.23`	`uhhimhere`	`whatever youre talking about`
`06:43.27`	`uhhimhere`	`where can i buy it`
`06:43.32`	`uhhimhere`	`other than the allwinner`
`06:44.05`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`http://www.ti.com/product/DM3730/samplebuy check the "Buy from authorized distributor" column`
`06:45.08`	`uhhimhere`	`hey they got surplus units`
`06:45.10`	`uhhimhere`	`cool`
`06:45.10`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`https://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=dm3730&start=0&limit=10`
`06:45.36`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`now n8`
`06:47.55`	`uhhimhere`	`so what was ED complaining about on his website?`
`06:48.18`	`uhhimhere`	`http://pandoralive.info/?p=2808`
`06:48.27`	`uhhimhere`	`theyre obviously readily accessible`
`06:50.02`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`sigh`
`06:50.23`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`he wasn't looking for an OMAP3`
`06:51.09`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`try find an OMAP5 and you might understand what's written on that page`
`06:51.30`	`uhhimhere`	`so why isnt omap5 available ?`
`07:06.17`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`>>They explained to me that in order to be able to use the Tegra, I need to let the hardware be designed and produced by a contracted partner [of their choice]. <<`
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`11:51.37`	`uhhimhere`	`so will the neo900 have the ability to put out hdmi?`
`11:52.02`	`uhhimhere`	`just to save cables on both the a & v`
`11:52.10`	`uhhimhere`	`so much easier to have just 1x output`
`11:56.52`	`kerio`	`in all likelyhood, no`
`11:57.13`	`uhhimhere`	`why not?`
`11:58.17`	`uhhimhere`	`just wont fit into the theme of keeping it the same as the n900?`
`12:02.28`	`kerio`	`because there's no digital video ut`
`12:02.29`	`kerio`	`out`
`12:03.54`	`uhhimhere`	`what would it take to have digital video out( i know this isnt even standard on newer phones but then again video out isnt even standard)`
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`12:19.53`	`sixwheeledbeast`	`Why have a digital out on a device with 800x480?`
`12:21.18`	`uhhimhere`	`well the digital out res wouldnt be tied to the lcd input`
`12:21.28`	`uhhimhere`	`it would be whatever the silicon could handle`
`12:23.59`	`uhhimhere`	`and based on this : http://www.ti.com/product/dm3730`
`12:24.02`	`uhhimhere`	`720p`
`12:26.48`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`[2015-01-11 Sun 07:16:35] <DocScrutinizer05> what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video`
`12:26.50`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`...`
`12:27.03`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`[2015-01-11 Sun 07:19:22] <DocScrutinizer05> for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually`
`12:27.27`	`uhhimhere`	`but i thought this wasnt an OMAP3 SoC/`
`12:27.45`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`dunno what you thought`
`12:28.18`	`uhhimhere`	`ok so the DM3730 is an OMAP 3`
`12:30.48`	`uhhimhere`	`ok so youre saying neo900 doesnt have HDMI because it was decided that having to switch one off while the other is on is not acceptable?`
`12:31.47`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`[2015-01-11 Sun 07:20:38] <DocScrutinizer05> and in this domain the chips we could use are really a PITA <DocScrutinizer05> digital video is infested with NDA and royalties`
`12:34.12`	`*** join/#neo900 b1101 (~b@fsf/member/b1101)`
`12:35.10`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134`
`12:39.36`	`uhhimhere`	`these guys seem to be able to get away with it at a $150 pricepoint : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCW_Zero`
`12:39.47`	`uhhimhere`	`i know its not a phone`
`12:39.54`	`uhhimhere`	`but its still a community sourced device`
`12:43.39`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`so?`
`12:44.05`	`uhhimhere`	`so what are they doing to keep royalties down`
`12:44.28`	`uhhimhere`	`find that out and maybe it could be viable`
`12:45.17`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`maybe you tell us?`
`12:46.30`	`uhhimhere`	`lol ok so pride is the reason`
`12:46.36`	`uhhimhere`	`fair enough`
`12:49.35`	`kerio`	`wat`
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`12:50.31`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`http://www.ingenic.cn/en/?product/id/5.html`
`12:50.59`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`sorry when i'm not interested in wasting more time on somebody who refuses to contribute`
`12:52.05`	`uhhimhere`	`digital video is infested with NDA and royalties`
`12:52.51`	`uhhimhere`	`so youre saying just by going with MIPS theyve manage tocircumvent royalties?`
`12:53.19`	`uhhimhere`	`and NDAs?`
`12:53.30`	`uhhimhere`	`come on`
`13:02.04`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`I shared fine links to comprehensive dicussion and latest info on the topic. When you're not wlling to read, don't expect spoonfeeding`
`13:03.11`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`and honestly I'm feeling like wasting my time`
`13:05.22`	`uhhimhere`	`im just saying forwarding a 227 page thread as an answer isnt really an answer`
`13:06.27`	`uhhimhere`	`how much more would the neo900 cost with HDMI out`
`13:07.41`	`uhhimhere`	`from what youve said the issue is having to choose between the onscreen display and digital out`
`13:07.46`	`uhhimhere`	`for the DM implementation`
`13:07.50`	`uhhimhere`	`which i think is fine`
`13:21.44`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`you're just saying that you're too lazy to read the very post and follow-ups dealing with exactly this topic, in an admittedly long thread. Sorry I'm out`
`13:23.05`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`either that or your browser is too stupid to jump to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 instead of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142`
`13:23.39`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`either way, I'm out. I don't feel like taking bashing and offensive arguing`
`13:24.17`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`with somebody who doesn't even care to find out what's DM3730`
`13:25.43`	`DocScrutinizer05`	`sorry when I assume you're not, and prolly never will be, a customer of Neo900, since the device quite obviously isn't up to your requirements`
`13:27.16`	`uhhimhere`	`what requirements i have an n900 and its a good device, always wished for it to have digital out`
`13:29.17`	`uhhimhere`	`never thought it was that slow or anything especially since you could overclock it`
`13:29.35`	`uhhimhere`	`and i am really excited for a neo900`
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`13:48.30`	`uhhimhere`	`DocScrutinizer05: alright i talked to the devs over at gcw and it seems none of them know anything about the hardware, everything was reverse engineered`
`13:48.40`	`uhhimhere`	`they have no cad files etc`
`13:49.00`	`uhhimhere`	`they just went to the factory said this is what we want and got a pcb prototyped`
`14:05.44`	`uhhimhere`	`and btw i will buy it if it comes out`
`14:16.02`	`uhhimhere`	`as long as everything about the hardware designs made open`
`14:16.06`	`uhhimhere`	`cad schems etc`
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`15:11.11`	`Openbot`	`Just a wild idea : today i repaired a chineese tablet (mtk) and was surprised to find 2 cpu's inside though i am not sure about that as it might be a gpu but it was written mediatek as in soc's i see genrelly`
`15:12.45`	`*** join/#neo900 Kabouik_ (~quassel@144.193.95.79.rev.sfr.net)`
`15:12.47`	`Openbot`	`Is it a coprocesser compensating for somethimg or booster and can the neo have something like that`
`15:13.25`	`Openbot`	`Kauboik_;)`
`15:14.16`	`mvaenskae`	`Openbot: maybe a picture/part number would clear up what the chip was :)`
`15:14.31`	`Openbot`	`\kabouik`
`15:15.04`	`Openbot`	`\kabouik_`
`15:15.20`	`Kabouik_`	`\Openbot.`
`15:16.01`	`Openbot`	`Thanx ;)`
`15:17.10`	`Openbot`	`Na i had little time to fix the speakers doused in oil :p`
`15:17.39`	`Openbot`	`Mvaenskae^`
`15:19.49`	`mvaenskae`	`Openbot: but now you have plenty, right? :D`
`15:20.08`	`Openbot`	`It can be awsome if theres a second processor that can be used by apps videos if needed`
`15:21.00`	`Openbot`	`Mvaenskae ? I didnt get that rephrase pls :)`
`15:22.48`	`Openbot`	`Mvaenskae docscrutnizer05 can i /query you`
`15:25.04`	`Openbot`	`Anybody i need help on my messed up irc acc`
`15:28.26`	`*** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@n050.tum.vpn.lrz.de)`
`15:29.02`	`*** join/#neo900 sparetire_ (~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire)`
`15:39.19`	`Openbot`	`Meh`
`15:39.34`	`Openbot`	`I cant`
`15:40.13`	`Openbot`	`Time tm query fire brigade`
`15:54.06`	`Openbot`	`Done :D`
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`23:46.00`	`Oksana`	`Good morning. Did the 15 domesheets from Gerry arrive?`
`23:54.40`	`*** join/#neo900 phre4k (~phre4k@55d40c5e.access.ecotel.net)`

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