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12:24.21 | phdeswer | Hi guys, any of you coming to FOSDEM with some open phone stuff? |
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20:44.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, due to health reasons me for sure not |
20:47.24 | kerio | what happened? D: |
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21:19.31 | dos1 | phdeswer: check out this thread - http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2015-January/006178.html |
21:20.36 | dos1 | and http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2015-January/001203.html (it was crossposted) |
21:21.57 | ds2 | did the need for custom cans ever get solved? |
21:25.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | custom cans? RF shielding? GTA04 was so good layout it passed all certs (CE et al) without those. If push comes to pull, there's a factory claiming to be able doing custom RF shielding cans by etching, in prototype quantities, some 30km from my home |
21:27.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | alternative: shielding spray to coat the inside of plastic case, should also help a lot for improved ESD prot |
21:28.08 | ds2 | okay. you have it undercontrol then |
21:28.28 | ds2 | came across a metal etching supplier who could do it in small quantities at a reasonable cost |
21:28.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | possibly same I found? |
21:28.55 | ds2 | unless you live in the US.... |
21:28.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
21:29.06 | ds2 | this one is in Chicago, IL, USA |
21:29.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.precisionmicro.de/76/germany/contact-us/europe |
21:29.30 | ds2 | their min. cost is roughly the order of what it would cost to do some 2L PCBs |
21:30.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'll happily aff their URL/contact-data to my bookmarks |
21:30.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | add* |
21:30.37 | ds2 | 1 min. let me find their card |
21:31.01 | ds2 | their business card is an etch peice of metal |
21:31.11 | ds2 | www.fotofab.com |
21:32.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: ((what happened)) physical breakdown, manifested in a quite recurring/chronic flu (plus side effects) which now is annoying me since 2.5 months |
21:34.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: ta |
21:35.02 | ds2 | no time to deal with the video output stuff yet |
21:35.10 | ds2 | too many CFP's to evaluate |
21:36.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | ds2: you seen the killer fact that DVI etc all need more than the available 8 contacts total we can share to implement that video interface? |
21:36.33 | ds2 | yes |
21:36.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | k |
21:36.50 | ds2 | it also precludes HDMI :D |
21:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
21:37.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | slimfoo etc would work but needs TWO complex chips since none of those chips takes parallel/serial input, they all need digital encoded input already |
21:37.49 | ds2 | i wonder if there are nice DSI to that 4 wire display protocol the automotive folks use |
21:38.03 | ds2 | nice chips that is |
21:39.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think - given 8pin restriction and the range of available external adapters and TV/monitor-inputs - VGA is our #1 candidate |
21:39.59 | ds2 | the automotive one keeps things digital, IIRC |
21:40.08 | ds2 | that way, it can be converted to whatever folks want |
21:40.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | "standard" digital video interfaces need more than 8 pins, Non-standard invariably needs a custom complex/active adapter |
21:42.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | it would be still acceptable to use a non-standard IF that nevertheless has commercioally available complex adapters, like slimbus(?) or MHL(?) |
21:42.40 | ds2 | no this is a standard that uses the USB mini connectors |
21:42.48 | ds2 | can't find the proper name for it :( |
21:42.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | but those need 2 chips in device, as explained above, plus they still need that active adapter even when such adapter is available |
21:45.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/Slimbus/SlimPort/ |
21:46.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | adapters: http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones-accessories/ET-H10FAUWESTA http://www.mobilefun.com/37046-analogix-slimport-sp1004-hdmi-adapter-for-slimport-smartphones.htm |
21:50.03 | ds2 | FPD-Link II |
21:50.22 | ds2 | uses 2 wires for clock + data |
21:51.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know any monitor or TV that would offer such input |
21:54.06 | ds2 | it is used mostly for automotive |
21:54.24 | ds2 | but that signal can then be converted without quality loss to whatever digital format dejour |
21:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | for that it's great for sure |
21:54.43 | ds2 | I don't like VGA cuz it is analog and noise sensitive |
21:54.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, 'only' needs a custom made active adapter |
21:55.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 won't build such adapters |
21:56.27 | ds2 | side business... ;) |
21:59.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the max resolution Neo900 device can provide (800*720p iirc), VGA is just good enough. digital video is basically overkill |
22:00.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | on analog VGA noise will just cause a few percent of inferior quality. On digital interfaces, noise will cause 100% failure |
22:01.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually DM3730 calims to have improved CVBS signal quality compared to OMAP3530 |
22:01.18 | kerio | *too much noise |
22:02.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | ponders to put 'check GTA04 CVBS quality' on todo list |
22:07.20 | ds2 | when you show me a 720p or even a 800x480 CVBS display that doesn't look like crap.... |
22:07.35 | ds2 | and that 800x480 must be visible pixels :P |
22:08.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway Neo900 product feature specs: decent standard definition (PAL/NTSC) video, if feasible 800*720 (or higher) workstation static output, at minimum 20fps/RGB565 |
22:08.06 | kerio | checkerboard pattern |
22:08.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think there's no such thing like 720p CVBS. Is there? |
22:09.03 | ds2 | is isn't exactly a standard but... |
22:09.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, you can think of a CBS-alike signal that has 720 visoible horizontal lines |
22:09.21 | ds2 | its analog, you just toss in a few more lines before you do a vsync each time ;) |
22:09.38 | ds2 | but go fit that in the <6MHz BW :D |
22:10.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep. exactly. At higher H freq, since you want Vsync still be 50Hz |
22:10.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | or would you go 720p@25Hz then? |
22:10.58 | ds2 | let me put it another way... 800x525 then |
22:11.02 | ds2 | or "525p" |
22:11.05 | ds2 | show me what |
22:11.06 | ds2 | :D |
22:11.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway H-freq/Hsync and pixel clock is insane |
22:11.19 | ds2 | there is no pixel clock |
22:11.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | virtually there is |
22:11.34 | ds2 | it is analog |
22:11.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | inside device there for sure is |
22:11.53 | ds2 | <-- refuses to look inside the magic black box ;) |
22:12.32 | ds2 | even the current "320x262" video looks like crap |
22:12.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't make sense to employ a 30MHz DAC to output 30Mpixel per second on a signal path that has a max bandwidth of only 6MHz |
22:13.24 | ds2 | taking that senstance by itself, I'd argue, it does |
22:13.41 | ds2 | using a 30MHz DAC would make filtering a lot less nasty |
22:13.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | which filtering? |
22:13.55 | ds2 | the min. is a 12MHz DAC |
22:14.03 | ds2 | reconstruction filtering on the analog side |
22:14.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
22:14.26 | ds2 | with a 12MHz DAC, you're looking at near brickwall filters to prevent harmonics, etc |
22:14.40 | ds2 | think of this as reverse of an ADC |
22:14.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | why bother about harmonics? |
22:14.58 | ds2 | cuz things (and gov't agencies) get irked by them |
22:15.23 | kerio | fuck the man |
22:15.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, when the bus has a bandwidth of only 6MHz, why add a dedicated filter to do same? |
22:15.45 | ds2 | that sir, is why I will not be investing my $$ |
22:16.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | no really, I won't lowpass-filter digital-to-analog video output signal |
22:16.27 | ds2 | *shrug* your call |
22:17.00 | ds2 | the good thing is this is a moot discussion as the DM3730 is doing this all inside the SoC |
22:17.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | the bus drivers themselves do enough of filtering |
22:17.45 | ds2 | but in general - the reason you do need to do it is - unless you want to be dealing with nice sine waves, the simpliest way to generate color burst is to use a square wave |
22:17.55 | ds2 | so something needs to chop off the harmonics |
22:18.09 | ds2 | or you risk things like them beating down and interfering |
22:18.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, when the harmonics would reach any active/non-linear component |
22:19.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm aware of the problems of beat-down/aliasing |
22:19.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just say we won't see any of that |
22:20.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, moot dicussion as you say |
22:20.04 | ds2 | with the DM3730, probally - if sw is setup right |
22:20.42 | ds2 | been spending time figuring out ways to generate a CVBS signal in SW |
22:21.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and since no device I know of would accept a HSYNC@32kHz CVBS signal 720p, it's doubleplus-moot |
22:22.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | show me a TV that accepts 720p CVBS and I'll rethink |
22:23.19 | ds2 | :) |
22:23.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | VGA otoh accepts quite a wide range of different formats regarding VSYNC and HSYNC |
22:24.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, for VGA we will want proper signal shaping to avoid harmonics and overshooting etc |
22:27.52 | ds2 | strictly speakimg, I'd disagree with that. but having said that, most modern monitors are multisync |
22:28.15 | ds2 | remember the X configs that were frying some monitors? |
22:28.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, sure |
22:29.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | strictly speaking VGA is 640*480p@32kHz_HSYNC |
22:29.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
22:29.49 | ds2 | with a fixed refresh rate |
22:31.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | but *all* monitors with "VGA" input nowadays (and since at least 10 years) can do pretty much arbitrary SYNc freq and resolutions |
22:32.01 | ds2 | aka the ones with the 13pin D connector for analog signals |
22:32.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess the last momitor which escaped blue magic smoke from either deviation solenoid or H-driver died 20 years ago |
22:33.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh, "deflection coil" |
22:34.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders how many true CRT monitors are still in use |
22:34.18 | ShadowJK | has a CRT on his desk |
22:34.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | WOW! |
22:34.38 | ShadowJK | "Hyundai deluxscan 15G" |
22:34.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | EIZO? Sony? |
22:35.20 | kerio | "true crt"? |
22:36.07 | ShadowJK | eizo? sony? what? |
22:36.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | sort of tautological, kerio. Just most people nowadays know CRT acronym only for "some monitor, whatever technology" |
22:37.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: those two were the most awesome CRT monitors available back when any CRT been available. So the idea been it's likely somebody would keep those, if any |
22:38.08 | ShadowJK | it's mostly because I'm lazy |
22:38.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
22:38.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | as long as it works ;-) |
22:38.32 | ShadowJK | I've got a Sun monitor on floor next to desk |
22:38.38 | ShadowJK | 21" or something, CRT |
22:38.41 | ShadowJK | with weird Sun connector |
22:38.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | yay |
22:39.01 | ShadowJK | Sun Sparcstation 5 |
22:39.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, exhausted, back to curing flu |
22:39.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
22:39.23 | ShadowJK | ANd Sun .. something or other, 800Mhz CPU with 1.5G ram |
22:39.34 | ds2 | Mmmmm hypersparcS? |
22:39.37 | ShadowJK | doesn't talk to the Sun monitor though :-( |
22:39.43 | ShadowJK | Yes, the SS5 is Hypersparc |
22:39.58 | ds2 | oh the pizza boxes |
22:40.00 | ds2 | cg6 video? |
22:40.04 | ShadowJK | Want it? Come get it, it' s free |
22:40.12 | ShadowJK | iirc cg5? is there such a thing? nfi |
22:40.18 | ds2 | no, I have an ultra5 |
22:40.31 | ds2 | cg5 is old, IIRC. cg6 was the standard |
22:40.35 | ShadowJK | I'll throw in a case of beer |
22:40.42 | ds2 | hehehehe |
22:40.51 | ShadowJK | Also got a Netra :P |
22:41.02 | ds2 | only if you will take the ss2 off my hands in trade ;) |
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22:41.10 | ShadowJK | lol |
22:41.11 | ShadowJK | no |
22:41.34 | ds2 | netra is a SS5 in shoebox formfactor like the javastations, right? |
22:41.35 | ShadowJK | The SS5 and its monster monitor actually served in modern times |
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22:42.16 | ShadowJK | The Netra is a 1U thing with a 400Mhz CPU and 2 x 20 GB SCSI hard drives, iirc |
22:42.37 | ds2 | is it 19" wide or merely 6"? |
22:42.55 | ShadowJK | hm? |
22:43.13 | ShadowJK | It comes with thumb screw rack mount things |
22:43.17 | ds2 | Oh |
22:43.21 | ShadowJK | And fits nicely in rack, if I'd have one |
22:43.22 | ds2 | must be thinking of something else |
22:43.44 | ds2 | there was something else also in the same shoebox formfactor as a javastation |
22:44.04 | ShadowJK | I'm not familiar with javastation |
22:44.17 | ShadowJK | Though SS5 is slightly narrower than rack, I guess |
22:44.34 | ds2 | that's a real SS5. but they moved thigns around to make it shoebox sized |
22:45.27 | ShadowJK | It's rather amusing how SS5, the first time I encountered it, in the day of Pentium 600, was quieter than PCs |
22:45.39 | ShadowJK | Nowadays it's a monster :D |
22:45.44 | ds2 | it was?? |
22:45.48 | ShadowJK | yeah |
22:45.52 | ds2 | you must have some noisy PCs |
22:46.20 | ShadowJK | SS5 was a "wait, computers can be this quiet?!" experience for me |
22:46.48 | ShadowJK | Plus, the 10krpm HD made more impressive noise than the 7.2krpm of PCs |
22:47.26 | ds2 | hahahaha |
22:47.40 | ds2 | SSA's and netapps! |
22:47.45 | ShadowJK | Walking into the room full of SS5s at Uni was a more awesome experience than walking into the room of 20 Pentium-II 500 :) |
22:47.46 | kerio | SS5? |
22:47.52 | ShadowJK | SparcStation 5 |
22:48.31 | ds2 | StarShip5 |
22:48.37 | ShadowJK | :) |
22:49.10 | kerio | according to wikipedia, pizza-box form factor is a thing |
22:49.43 | ds2 | the last chance for a peaceful computing |
22:50.41 | ShadowJK | By modern metrics, the SS5 was noisier. By the metrics of the day, the Linux room filled with P2-500 was like stepping onto the deck of an aircraft carrier filled with WW2 planes. The SS5 room was like stepping onto the desck of an aircraft carrier filled with F-18 |
22:51.35 | ShadowJK | Also, all the "makes teacher look clueless" coders always sat in the SS5 room |
22:51.44 | ds2 | all the SS5's I worked with was on people's desks |
22:52.04 | ds2 | SS5's was for the interns and no bodies |
22:52.07 | ShadowJK | There was also an Ultrasparc room, but I don't remember much of it |
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22:54.54 | kerio | i notice that my laptop's doing something heavy when the fans become audible :3 |
22:55.15 | ds2 | you don't do make -j99 daily? |
22:57.41 | kerio | i don't |
22:57.47 | kerio | because i don't have a 99-core cpu |
22:58.13 | ds2 | i usually do about 3x the cores I have |
22:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | beowulf |
22:59.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster |
22:59.25 | kerio | ds2: including hyperthreading |
22:59.26 | kerio | ? |
23:00.43 | ds2 | yes |
23:00.49 | ds2 | gcc seems to have a lot fo dead time otherwise |
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23:09.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, depending on ratio of total computational grunt of all CPU cores vs speed of storage IO you want sufficient overprovision of active processes so there's always a process not waiting for IO for every available core |
23:10.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | note however that swap is also storage IO |
23:12.35 | ds2 | gcc seems to do IO-Compute-IO.... |
23:15.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think every process does ;-) |
23:16.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why you use time sharing multitasking :-) |
23:16.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly in -j |
23:17.06 | ds2 | yep |
23:17.12 | ds2 | hence oversubscribing helps |
23:17.30 | ds2 | though, memory is a major constraint. swapping sucks ;) |
23:19.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | swapping mostly defeats the purpose of increasing compile speed, when increasing -j beyond the limit that RAM allows. Unless swap is significantly faster than "ordinary" IO |
23:20.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | calculating the right parameter for -j option is very complex - otherwise there would already exist a "-j auto-optimum" option ;-) |
23:21.23 | ds2 | machine learning to the rescue |
23:21.32 | ds2 | -j autolearn ;) |
23:24.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I think nowadays -j should probably default to "<cores> * 2", not to "1" |
23:25.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | but changing defaults is always a nasty thing to do |
23:26.19 | kerio | there's no default for -j |
23:27.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, it defaults to "no -j" |
23:27.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is similar to "-j1" aiui |
23:28.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka "no multi-job" |
23:33.52 | ds2 | there are poorly done makefiles where anything other then -j1 fails |
23:36.05 | kerio | nethack and variants :c |
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