IRC log for #neo900 on 20150130

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12:24.21phdeswerHi guys, any of you coming to FOSDEM with some open phone stuff?
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20:44.03DocScrutinizer05sorry, due to health reasons me for sure not
20:47.24keriowhat happened? D:
21:13.12*** join/#neo900 norly (~norly@enpas.org)
21:19.31dos1phdeswer: check out this thread - http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2015-January/006178.html
21:20.36dos1and http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2015-January/001203.html (it was crossposted)
21:21.57ds2did the need for custom cans ever get solved?
21:25.51DocScrutinizer05custom cans? RF shielding? GTA04 was so good layout it passed all certs (CE et al) without those. If push comes to pull, there's a factory claiming to be able doing custom RF shielding cans by etching, in prototype quantities, some 30km from my home
21:27.33DocScrutinizer05alternative: shielding spray to coat the inside of plastic case, should also help a lot for improved ESD prot
21:28.08ds2okay. you have it undercontrol then
21:28.28ds2came across a metal etching supplier who could do it in small quantities at a reasonable cost
21:28.46DocScrutinizer05possibly same I found?
21:28.55ds2unless you live in the US....
21:28.59DocScrutinizer05nope
21:29.06ds2this one is in Chicago, IL, USA
21:29.24DocScrutinizer05http://www.precisionmicro.de/76/germany/contact-us/europe
21:29.30ds2their min. cost is roughly the order of what it would cost to do some 2L PCBs
21:30.16DocScrutinizer05I'll happily aff their URL/contact-data to my bookmarks
21:30.20DocScrutinizer05add*
21:30.37ds21 min. let me find their card
21:31.01ds2their business card is an etch peice of metal
21:31.11ds2www.fotofab.com
21:32.17DocScrutinizer05kerio: ((what happened)) physical breakdown, manifested in a quite recurring/chronic flu (plus side effects) which now is annoying me since 2.5 months
21:34.21DocScrutinizer05ds2: ta
21:35.02ds2no time to deal with the video output stuff yet
21:35.10ds2too many CFP's to evaluate
21:36.20DocScrutinizer05ds2: you seen the killer fact that DVI etc all need more than the available 8 contacts total we can share to implement that video interface?
21:36.33ds2yes
21:36.36DocScrutinizer05k
21:36.50ds2it also precludes HDMI :D
21:36.56DocScrutinizer05:nod:
21:37.47DocScrutinizer05slimfoo etc would work but needs TWO complex chips since none of those chips takes parallel/serial input, they all need digital encoded input already
21:37.49ds2i wonder if there are nice DSI to that 4 wire display protocol the automotive folks use
21:38.03ds2nice chips that is
21:39.22DocScrutinizer05I think - given 8pin restriction and the range of available external adapters and TV/monitor-inputs - VGA is our #1 candidate
21:39.59ds2the automotive one keeps things digital, IIRC
21:40.08ds2that way, it can be converted to whatever folks want
21:40.34DocScrutinizer05"standard" digital video interfaces need more than 8 pins, Non-standard invariably needs a custom complex/active adapter
21:42.10DocScrutinizer05it would be still acceptable to use a non-standard IF that nevertheless has commercioally available complex adapters, like slimbus(?) or MHL(?)
21:42.40ds2no this is a standard that uses the USB mini connectors
21:42.48ds2can't find the proper name for it :(
21:42.55DocScrutinizer05but those need 2 chips in device, as explained above, plus they still need that active adapter even when such adapter is available
21:45.05DocScrutinizer05s/Slimbus/SlimPort/
21:46.23DocScrutinizer05adapters: http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones-accessories/ET-H10FAUWESTA     http://www.mobilefun.com/37046-analogix-slimport-sp1004-hdmi-adapter-for-slimport-smartphones.htm
21:50.03ds2FPD-Link II
21:50.22ds2uses 2 wires for clock + data
21:51.09DocScrutinizer05I don't know any monitor or TV that would offer such input
21:54.06ds2it is used mostly for automotive
21:54.24ds2but that signal can then be converted without quality loss to whatever digital format dejour
21:54.28DocScrutinizer05for that it's great for sure
21:54.43ds2I don't like VGA cuz it is analog and noise sensitive
21:54.57DocScrutinizer05yeah, 'only' needs a custom made active adapter
21:55.20DocScrutinizer05Neo900 won't build such adapters
21:56.27ds2side business... ;)
21:59.04DocScrutinizer05for the max resolution Neo900 device can provide (800*720p iirc), VGA is just good enough. digital video is basically overkill
22:00.40DocScrutinizer05on analog VGA noise will just cause a few percent of inferior quality. On digital interfaces, noise will cause 100% failure
22:01.17DocScrutinizer05actually DM3730 calims to have improved CVBS signal quality compared to OMAP3530
22:01.18kerio*too much noise
22:02.20DocScrutinizer05ponders to put 'check GTA04 CVBS quality' on todo list
22:07.20ds2when you show me a 720p or even a 800x480 CVBS display that doesn't look like crap....
22:07.35ds2and that 800x480 must be visible pixels :P
22:08.01DocScrutinizer05anyway Neo900 product feature specs: decent standard definition (PAL/NTSC) video, if feasible 800*720 (or higher) workstation static output, at minimum 20fps/RGB565
22:08.06keriocheckerboard pattern
22:08.44DocScrutinizer05I think there's no such thing like 720p CVBS. Is there?
22:09.03ds2is isn't exactly a standard but...
22:09.18DocScrutinizer05I mean, you can think of a CBS-alike signal that has 720 visoible horizontal lines
22:09.21ds2its analog, you just toss in a few more lines before you do a vsync each time ;)
22:09.38ds2but go fit that in the <6MHz BW :D
22:10.02DocScrutinizer05yep. exactly. At higher H freq, since you want Vsync still be 50Hz
22:10.30DocScrutinizer05or would you go 720p@25Hz then?
22:10.58ds2let me put it another way... 800x525 then
22:11.02ds2or "525p"
22:11.05ds2show me what
22:11.06ds2:D
22:11.08DocScrutinizer05anyway H-freq/Hsync and pixel clock is insane
22:11.19ds2there is no pixel clock
22:11.26DocScrutinizer05virtually there is
22:11.34ds2it is analog
22:11.38DocScrutinizer05inside device there for sure is
22:11.53ds2<-- refuses to look inside the magic black box ;)
22:12.32ds2even the current "320x262" video looks like crap
22:12.54DocScrutinizer05it doesn't make sense to employ a 30MHz DAC to output 30Mpixel per second on a signal path that has a max bandwidth of only 6MHz
22:13.24ds2taking that senstance by itself, I'd argue, it does
22:13.41ds2using a 30MHz DAC would make filtering a lot less nasty
22:13.53DocScrutinizer05which filtering?
22:13.55ds2the min. is a 12MHz DAC
22:14.03ds2reconstruction filtering on the analog side
22:14.12DocScrutinizer05hmm?
22:14.26ds2with a 12MHz DAC, you're looking at near brickwall filters to prevent harmonics, etc
22:14.40ds2think of this as reverse of an ADC
22:14.45DocScrutinizer05why bother about harmonics?
22:14.58ds2cuz things (and gov't agencies) get irked by them
22:15.23keriofuck the man
22:15.29DocScrutinizer05meh, when the bus has a bandwidth of only 6MHz, why add a dedicated filter to do same?
22:15.45ds2that sir, is why I will not be investing my $$
22:16.09DocScrutinizer05no really, I won't lowpass-filter digital-to-analog video output signal
22:16.27ds2*shrug* your call
22:17.00ds2the good thing is this is a moot discussion as the DM3730 is doing this all inside the SoC
22:17.15DocScrutinizer05the bus drivers themselves do enough of filtering
22:17.45ds2but in general - the reason you do need to do it is - unless you want to be dealing with nice sine waves, the simpliest way to generate color burst is to use a square wave
22:17.55ds2so something needs to chop off the harmonics
22:18.09ds2or you risk things like them beating down and interfering
22:18.38DocScrutinizer05sure, when the harmonics would reach any active/non-linear component
22:19.13DocScrutinizer05I'm aware of the problems of beat-down/aliasing
22:19.29DocScrutinizer05I just say we won't see any of that
22:20.01DocScrutinizer05anyway, moot dicussion as you say
22:20.04ds2with the DM3730, probally - if sw is setup right
22:20.42ds2been spending time figuring out ways to generate a CVBS signal in SW
22:21.01DocScrutinizer05and since no device I know of would accept a HSYNC@32kHz CVBS signal 720p, it's doubleplus-moot
22:22.09DocScrutinizer05show me a TV that accepts 720p CVBS and I'll rethink
22:23.19ds2:)
22:23.38DocScrutinizer05VGA otoh accepts quite a wide range of different formats regarding VSYNC and HSYNC
22:24.25DocScrutinizer05and yes, for VGA we will want proper signal shaping to avoid harmonics and overshooting etc
22:27.52ds2strictly speakimg, I'd disagree with that. but having said that, most modern monitors are multisync
22:28.15ds2remember the X configs that were frying some monitors?
22:28.46DocScrutinizer05yep, sure
22:29.30DocScrutinizer05strictly speaking VGA is 640*480p@32kHz_HSYNC
22:29.33DocScrutinizer05iirc
22:29.49ds2with a fixed refresh rate
22:31.13DocScrutinizer05but *all* monitors with "VGA" input nowadays (and since at least 10 years) can do pretty much arbitrary SYNc freq and resolutions
22:32.01ds2aka the ones with the 13pin D connector for analog signals
22:32.32DocScrutinizer05I guess the last momitor which escaped blue magic smoke from either deviation solenoid or H-driver died 20 years ago
22:33.18DocScrutinizer05ugh, "deflection coil"
22:34.06DocScrutinizer05idly wonders how many true CRT monitors are still in use
22:34.18ShadowJKhas a CRT on his desk
22:34.24DocScrutinizer05WOW!
22:34.38ShadowJK"Hyundai deluxscan 15G"
22:34.42DocScrutinizer05EIZO? Sony?
22:35.20kerio"true crt"?
22:36.07ShadowJKeizo? sony? what?
22:36.23DocScrutinizer05sort of tautological, kerio. Just most people nowadays know CRT acronym only for "some monitor, whatever technology"
22:37.18DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: those two were the most awesome CRT monitors available back when any CRT been available. So the idea been it's likely somebody would keep those, if any
22:38.08ShadowJKit's mostly because I'm lazy
22:38.13DocScrutinizer05:-D
22:38.20DocScrutinizer05as long as it works ;-)
22:38.32ShadowJKI've got a Sun monitor on floor next to desk
22:38.38ShadowJK21" or something, CRT
22:38.41ShadowJKwith weird Sun connector
22:38.47DocScrutinizer05yay
22:39.01ShadowJKSun Sparcstation 5
22:39.02DocScrutinizer05sorry, exhausted, back to curing flu
22:39.04DocScrutinizer05o/
22:39.23ShadowJKANd Sun .. something or other, 800Mhz CPU with 1.5G ram
22:39.34ds2Mmmmm hypersparcS?
22:39.37ShadowJKdoesn't talk to the Sun monitor though :-(
22:39.43ShadowJKYes, the SS5 is Hypersparc
22:39.58ds2oh the pizza boxes
22:40.00ds2cg6 video?
22:40.04ShadowJKWant it? Come get it, it' s free
22:40.12ShadowJKiirc cg5? is there such a thing? nfi
22:40.18ds2no, I have an ultra5
22:40.31ds2cg5 is old, IIRC. cg6 was the standard
22:40.35ShadowJKI'll throw in a case of beer
22:40.42ds2hehehehe
22:40.51ShadowJKAlso got a Netra :P
22:41.02ds2only if you will take the ss2 off my hands in trade ;)
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22:41.10ShadowJKlol
22:41.11ShadowJKno
22:41.34ds2netra is a SS5 in shoebox formfactor like the javastations, right?
22:41.35ShadowJKThe SS5 and its monster monitor actually served in modern times
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22:42.16ShadowJKThe Netra is a 1U thing with a 400Mhz CPU and 2 x 20 GB SCSI hard drives, iirc
22:42.37ds2is it 19" wide or merely 6"?
22:42.55ShadowJKhm?
22:43.13ShadowJKIt comes with thumb screw rack mount things
22:43.17ds2Oh
22:43.21ShadowJKAnd fits nicely in rack, if I'd have one
22:43.22ds2must be thinking of something else
22:43.44ds2there was something else also in the same shoebox formfactor as a javastation
22:44.04ShadowJKI'm not familiar with javastation
22:44.17ShadowJKThough SS5 is slightly narrower than rack, I guess
22:44.34ds2that's a real SS5. but they moved thigns around to make it shoebox sized
22:45.27ShadowJKIt's rather amusing how SS5, the first time I encountered it, in the day of Pentium 600, was quieter than PCs
22:45.39ShadowJKNowadays it's a monster :D
22:45.44ds2it was??
22:45.48ShadowJKyeah
22:45.52ds2you must have some noisy PCs
22:46.20ShadowJKSS5 was a "wait, computers can be this quiet?!" experience for me
22:46.48ShadowJKPlus, the 10krpm HD made more impressive noise than the 7.2krpm of PCs
22:47.26ds2hahahaha
22:47.40ds2SSA's and netapps!
22:47.45ShadowJKWalking into the room full of SS5s at Uni was a more awesome experience than walking into the room of 20 Pentium-II 500 :)
22:47.46kerioSS5?
22:47.52ShadowJKSparcStation 5
22:48.31ds2StarShip5
22:48.37ShadowJK:)
22:49.10kerioaccording to wikipedia, pizza-box form factor is a thing
22:49.43ds2the last chance for a peaceful computing
22:50.41ShadowJKBy modern metrics, the SS5 was noisier. By the metrics of the day, the Linux room filled with P2-500 was like stepping onto the deck of an aircraft carrier filled with WW2 planes. The SS5 room was like stepping onto the desck of an aircraft carrier filled with F-18
22:51.35ShadowJKAlso, all the "makes teacher look clueless" coders always sat in the SS5 room
22:51.44ds2all the SS5's I worked with was on people's desks
22:52.04ds2SS5's was for the interns and no bodies
22:52.07ShadowJKThere was also an Ultrasparc room, but I don't remember much of it
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22:54.54kerioi notice that my laptop's doing something heavy when the fans become audible :3
22:55.15ds2you don't do make -j99 daily?
22:57.41kerioi don't
22:57.47keriobecause i don't have a 99-core cpu
22:58.13ds2i usually do about 3x the cores I have
22:58.14DocScrutinizer05beowulf
22:59.11DocScrutinizer05https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster
22:59.25keriods2: including hyperthreading
22:59.26kerio?
23:00.43ds2yes
23:00.49ds2gcc seems to have a lot fo dead time otherwise
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23:09.57DocScrutinizer05well, depending on ratio of total computational grunt of all CPU cores vs speed of storage IO you want sufficient overprovision of active processes so there's always a process not waiting for IO for every available core
23:10.18DocScrutinizer05note however that swap is also storage IO
23:12.35ds2gcc seems to do IO-Compute-IO....
23:15.33DocScrutinizer05I think every process does ;-)
23:16.03DocScrutinizer05that's why you use time sharing multitasking :-)
23:16.26DocScrutinizer05particularly in -j
23:17.06ds2yep
23:17.12ds2hence oversubscribing helps
23:17.30ds2though, memory is a major constraint. swapping sucks ;)
23:19.23DocScrutinizer05swapping mostly defeats the purpose of increasing compile speed, when increasing -j beyond the limit that RAM allows. Unless swap is significantly faster than "ordinary" IO
23:20.55DocScrutinizer05calculating the right parameter for -j option is very complex - otherwise there would already exist a "-j auto-optimum" option ;-)
23:21.23ds2machine learning to the rescue
23:21.32ds2-j autolearn ;)
23:24.52DocScrutinizer05though I think nowadays -j should probably default to "<cores> * 2", not to "1"
23:25.32DocScrutinizer05but changing defaults is always a nasty thing to do
23:26.19keriothere's no default for -j
23:27.25DocScrutinizer05yeah, it defaults to "no -j"
23:27.47DocScrutinizer05which is similar to "-j1" aiui
23:28.05DocScrutinizer05aka "no multi-job"
23:33.52ds2there are poorly done makefiles where anything other then -j1 fails
23:36.05kerionethack and variants :c
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