IRC log for #neo900 on 20150420

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15:20.27*** join/#neo900 CaptHindsight (~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight)
15:24.01CaptHindsightif the devs here are interested we can make new N900 cases or new case designs that are compatible with the mainboard
15:24.16CaptHindsightor even make a new mainboard
15:24.56bencoh"we" as in ... ?
15:24.57freemangordonCaptHindsight: and who are "we"?
15:24.58bencoh(hello o/)
15:25.05freemangordonheh, you beat me to it :)
15:25.12bencohwoops ;)
15:25.37CaptHindsightI'm working on some other open hardware projects  #openlunchbox
15:26.05CaptHindsightwe is me and whoever else I'm working with at the time on whatever project
15:26.22freemangordonwell, I guess it is DocScrutinizer05 to answer
15:26.54CaptHindsightwe looked at making new mainboards for some older popular laptops and decided to just make everything rather than just a new mainboard
15:27.12CaptHindsightI can can do the same with you board
15:27.24CaptHindsightjust offering
15:27.51freemangordonCaptHindsight: yeah, thanks. BTW ever seen the case neo900 is going to use?
15:28.00CaptHindsighthttp://openlunchbox.com/smf/index.php
15:28.23CaptHindsightfreemangordon: the one pictured here?  http://neo900.org/faq
15:28.39freemangordonyes, that one
15:29.00bencohCaptHindsight: see http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/scans/
15:29.09CaptHindsightI even had a hard time finding new N900's 2 years ago in Hong Kong
15:29.21freemangordonyep, what bencoh said
15:29.24bencohneo900 is meant to use the n900 casing plus a 2mm spacer
15:29.40bencoh(or so I've heard :)
15:29.48CaptHindsightwell you're not limited to that case if you don't want to be
15:30.23bencohindeed, if you can provide an alternative to the users ... it could be interesting
15:30.30freemangordonactually we are, because of various reasons - like TS, keyboard, slider, speakers, etc, etc
15:30.49bencohoh, right ... everything else would need to fit :)
15:30.50CaptHindsightwe can SLA a case that size in a minute or two
15:30.50freemangordonbut again, it is DocScrutinizer05 to answer, we can just discuss
15:30.53*** join/#neo900 arcean (~arcean@apn-46-215-25-36.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl)
15:31.12CaptHindsightif they need help with the pcb design I'm here as well
15:31.30CaptHindsighti was planning on some new phone designs as well
15:31.37freemangordongreat, keep joined, doc will appear for sure
15:31.48freemangordondoc == DocScrutinizer05
15:32.05CaptHindsightI'll hang around
15:32.09freemangordonwpwrak: ^^^
15:32.28bencohCaptHindsight: aren't you the one that was talking about a "free" modem and/or modem firmware ?
15:32.32CaptHindsightI was going through all the openmoko and similar channel earlier trying to find the hardware devs
15:33.23CaptHindsightbencoh: yes, but I personally try to focus on hardware, electronics, mechanical, materials science, polymer chemistry etc
15:33.27freemangordonis back to stupid xloader hanging when onenand base address is changed
15:33.50CaptHindsightothers expressed interest in an open firmware stack
15:34.47CaptHindsightI though they had found an open firmware project that was actually working
15:37.16CaptHindsighthttp://bb.osmocom.org/trac/
15:37.27CaptHindsighthttp://openbsc.osmocom.org/trac/
15:40.24jonsgerCaptHindsight: but only GSM, no UMTS/LTE...
15:40.27bencohopenbsc isnt a terminal (customer-side) implementation ... and osmocombb only has gsm support
15:44.17DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: please stay around, I'm in a hurry but will tty later. very interested
15:44.48CaptHindsightI'll stay here until the my system crashes  :)
15:44.57DocScrutinizer05:-D ta
15:45.21DocScrutinizer05afk for ~90min
15:56.51*** join/#neo900 paulk-collins (~paulk@gagarine.paulk.fr)
15:59.56wpwrakCaptHindsight: not depending on nokia parts would be nice. however, there's also the question about material properties. i.e., if we have a nice case that just cracks during regular use, that wouldn't be so nice in the end
16:00.26wpwrakbut you have STL capabilities then ? that sounds very interesting :)
16:01.27wpwrakah wait, that was SLA. what's that again ...
16:01.42wpwrakah yes, the same. good :)
16:02.23CaptHindsightwpwrak: yes, we make the resins as well
16:02.32CaptHindsightsome are as tough as delrin
16:02.49CaptHindsightABS is no problem
16:02.50wpwrakoh, wow
16:04.12wpwrakcan you usefully work from STL meshes or do your devices work with proprietary formats ?
16:04.25CaptHindsightlike I said we were asked so  many times about making a new mainboard for the Thinkpads like the T60
16:04.55CaptHindsightbut when we looked everything over it looked better to just make everything
16:05.10CaptHindsightwhatever format
16:05.35wpwrakhaving control over the case is definitely convenient.  also, it probably takes just as long to figure out all the details and quirks of an existing design than making a new one
16:05.36CaptHindsightmy only limitation is using open CAD software
16:05.48wpwrakfreecad ? :)
16:06.14CaptHindsightit's like being forced to use a cheap 206 piece tool set to build and engine and 98 pieces are hex keys
16:06.27bencoh:)
16:06.35CaptHindsightI run NX, Creo, SW, Catia etc
16:06.57CaptHindsightand Cadence/Orcad and Allegro for pcb's
16:07.06wpwrakhmm, all very proprietary
16:07.24CaptHindsightI have others like Altium
16:07.42CaptHindsightsomeone with far more patience can translate files  :)
16:07.56wpwrakwe use eagle for the pcb. we don't have any cad yet in the project.
16:08.12CaptHindsightwell all you need are stp, igs etc for the mechanical
16:08.38CaptHindsightand gerbers for pcb's
16:09.01wpwrakwell, for the fab
16:09.32wpwrakit's also nice if using the "sources" doesn't require software that costs a fortune
16:09.48CaptHindsightwell they sort of work
16:10.15wpwrakeagle should be no problem. i'd even use kicad :)
16:10.15CaptHindsightEagle is farther along than the open parametric modeling
16:10.37CaptHindsightbrl, freecad etc
16:10.47wpwrakyes, i did some 3d cad work with freecad. nothing that complex, though
16:11.53*** join/#neo900 Openbot (~Panda@112.79.39.54)
16:12.12wpwrakthis is the height of my achievements with freecad so far: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/case-top-201502.png
16:12.36CaptHindsight1 sec
16:12.36wpwrak(for use with a 2.5D mill, so some limitations simply come from this)
16:14.28CaptHindsighthttp://www.pastebin.ca/2977680  save it a .stp and open that
16:14.53CaptHindsightI created that in NX in a couple of minutes
16:15.20CaptHindsighthow long would that take to create in brl, freecad etc?
16:16.04Openbotcapthindsight link your projects please :J
16:17.13Openboti.e the ones you are working on
16:17.36CaptHindsighthttp://openlunchbox.com/smf/index.php  http://openlunchbox.com/
16:17.46CaptHindsight#openlunchbox
16:17.49Openbotsaw that
16:18.00Openbotmore :D
16:18.35CaptHindsighta few wanted consumer items then I'll be making more medical diagnostic tools
16:18.39Openbotname is nice
16:18.49CaptHindsightDNA sequencers, printers, etc
16:19.03wpwrakdisc with cylindical cut-outs ? that's not so hard. oh, i should mention that i drive freecad from scripts. i find the ui useless for anything than visualization and exploration. but that's okay - i like scripts :)
16:19.04Openbotmy god
16:20.00wpwrakanyway, what we'll definitely need for neo900 is a variant of this structure: http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/scans/#key-frame-inside
16:20.26CaptHindsightwas looking at that
16:20.36CaptHindsightnobody is making the keyboard anymore?
16:20.54CaptHindsightoh, or just the frame?
16:20.58wpwrakbasically the same, but about 2 mm taller (was it 1.5 mm ? don't remember). there would thus be a little wall to be added
16:21.12CaptHindsightpretty easy
16:21.14wpwrakyes, that's the minimum we need
16:21.20wpwraki was hoping you'd say that ;-)))
16:21.36CaptHindsightI can make a completely different case
16:21.57CaptHindsightthe omap supports higher res displays
16:22.20CaptHindsightI could scale it up to 6" or something
16:22.33Openbotcosts ?
16:22.37CaptHindsightkeep the slider keyboard style
16:22.51CaptHindsightOpenbot: for manufacturing?
16:23.00wpwrakplease don't forget that a) there are a lot of items that still need to fit and b) we still want this to be roughly the shape of a n900
16:23.01Openbotyes
16:23.08bencohthis all sounds like a neo900v2 :)
16:23.52CaptHindsightcases in low volume could $25
16:23.56Openbotif he can make a case i suppose he can fit them too
16:23.57wpwrakso a new case that rearranges internal details could be interesting (note however that there are things like lenses that are integrated into the case)
16:24.00CaptHindsightcould be
16:24.21CaptHindsightthe camera lens is no problem
16:24.33Openbotlow volumes = capthindsight
16:24.38CaptHindsighti spend half my time in China
16:24.47Openbotoh my
16:24.53CaptHindsightso sourcing components is not a problem
16:24.55wpwrakOpenbot: if you grow the case for a larger display, then you need to reengineer the whole slider system, source a new display, find out if you're breaking sw compatibility where it matters, and so on
16:25.33CaptHindsightdoes the GUI have some hard limits on screen res?
16:25.34Openbotchineese are crazy heck they are best xerox machines
16:26.06CaptHindsightyes, they are like xerox machines, not engineers
16:26.20CaptHindsightcopy yes, invent no
16:26.34wpwrakCaptHindsight: i'm not sure if we even can change the screen resolution. but maemo compatibility isn't really my domain.
16:26.35CaptHindsightbut just give them plans and away they go
16:26.52CaptHindsightthen you just have to watch for corners being cut
16:27.16CaptHindsight25 cent part being replaced by inferior 20 cent part
16:27.17wpwrakoh, they have engineers, too. even good ones. but you probably can't afford them ;-)
16:27.34Openbotyeah i repair a lot of chineese phones lol
16:27.38CaptHindsightgood is subjective  :)
16:28.04Openbotsubjective is bad
16:28.44CaptHindsightI work on lots of new tech
16:28.57CaptHindsightprinting pcb's using only fluids
16:29.03Openbotworst i see is same pcb components just diff sizes
16:29.08CaptHindsightprinted electronics
16:29.26CaptHindsightmaterials deposition. additive manufacturing
16:29.55Openbotby printed you mean those wafer thin bords or
16:30.25Openbotflexible ribbon like bords
16:30.36CaptHindsightwpwrak: the high screen res is another option I'm tossing out there for consideration
16:30.47CaptHindsightmaybe some of the GUI people will chime in
16:31.24CaptHindsightOpenbot: multilayer pcb's like in your laptop or phone
16:31.59CaptHindsightprinting is faster than plating, etching, gluing, drilling
16:31.59wpwrakwe have a lot of backwards-compatibility constraints. else, we'd have to redo major portions of middleware and applications. and some of that stuff hasn't even been rev-engineered yet
16:32.15wpwrakso that would be the sort of rabbit hole we don't want to go down
16:32.32Openbotwpwark say if maemo supports x resolution only and new display  got x and y res is it a problem ?
16:32.34CaptHindsightwpwrak: yeah, enough work as it is
16:33.44wpwrakOpenbot: i don't know. freemangordon and DocScrutinizer05 probably do (as well as several others i'm not thinking of at the moment)
16:34.07CaptHindsightthe omap chosen does run android
16:34.40CaptHindsightand Linux
16:34.42wpwrakyes, but the goal is maemo. if it runs other things, that's of course nice
16:34.44Openbotcapthindsight yeah but what are those boards called that are wafer thin
16:35.07wpwrakanother tricky bit we have is the keymat
16:35.28CaptHindsightOpenbot: are you thinking of the flexible pcb's? polyester tape with copper traces?
16:35.36wpwrakone can see it here in most of its glory: http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/scans/#pcb-top
16:36.02CaptHindsighthttp://www.ats.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/slider-product-flexible-pcb.jpg
16:37.04Openbotyes capthindsight and they are a real nuiance to repair even some components come attached atop them sometimes
16:37.06wpwrakthere's more to it than meets the eye: first of all, the domes are very small. then there's a light spreader on them (the LEDs for kbd backlight are on the upper long side, tucked under the white stuff)
16:37.51WizzupOpenbot: what do you ask wrt resolution?
16:38.00Wizzups/what/why/
16:38.19Openbottyping
16:38.30CaptHindsightwpwrak: no big deal
16:38.53CaptHindsightthat's the kind of thing I work on all the time
16:39.21CaptHindsightand developing the materials as well to perform the way you want
16:39.58WizzupOpenbot: ?
16:40.25Openbotsay maemo supports x res and new display got multiple resolution that are operable and x being one of them so can maemo use the x resolution for now in the new display
16:40.48CaptHindsightthere's this great cellphone mall in Hong Kong near the Lady Market
16:40.58CaptHindsightany part you need
16:41.04bencoh"multiple resolutions" doesn't really exist with LCD screen
16:41.20Wizzupbencoh: I think he means a similar screen with higher res in same size
16:41.30Openboti dont know about that bencoh
16:41.59wpwrakCaptHindsight: seems that DocScrutinizer05 should take a week of vacation in china and you give him a guided tour ;-))
16:42.11CaptHindsightpeople bring in their cracked case and displays and they have figured out how to take apart the lamination's and glue for the case
16:42.59Openbotcapthindsight i do that i.e cracked case glue
16:44.22Openbotwizzup no bigger display with higher resolution but one that also supports lower res that maemo needs at the moment
16:45.13CaptHindsightthat might work
16:45.30CaptHindsightwhen maemo runs it scales
16:45.44*** join/#neo900 che11 (~che@n033.tum.vpn.lrz.de)
16:45.49Openbotcapthindsight i even change the reflector at the back of the display at times  :D
16:45.55CaptHindsightwe'll have to see how they wrote it
16:46.03wpwrakCaptHindsight: i suppose you have optical high-resolution 3D scanners ?
16:46.15wpwraki.e., 50 um or better ?
16:46.17Openbotdocscrutinizer05 come fast :D
16:47.01CaptHindsightI have to go for a bit, 3 meters from keyboard
16:47.15wpwraksafe journey ! ;-)
16:47.21Openbotlol
16:48.34Openbotwpwark how much electricty your scanning mill use
16:49.04Openbotwpwrak ^
17:04.54wpwrakhmm, the supply is 19 V x 2.1 A, so about 40 W
17:05.04wpwrak(or less)
17:05.51*** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net)
17:07.32Openboti thought it to be a power guzzleing monstor
17:08.06Openbotits just a standerd 40 watt bulb glowing
17:08.40wpwrakit's the size of a deaktop printer :) http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/mdx-20_15.html
17:08.41Openbotkabouik_:D
17:09.32Openbotthats small
17:10.02Openbotdonn know wht pic i had in mind
17:11.49Openbotthe word mill was painting monstrous pictures in my head :D
17:16.55CaptHindsightanother thing to keep in mind is modularity
17:17.44CaptHindsightthe laptops and the auto ECU's are modular since people want so mnay variations or like the car ECU's there are several non-cooperating software projects
17:18.19DocScrutinizer51we discussed this. it's not feasible for embedded
17:18.23CaptHindsightthe ECU's have the microcontroller on a small carrier board and the IO is all the same
17:18.31DocScrutinizer51afk, driving
17:18.52CaptHindsightthis way people can pick their software and matching microcontroller but take advantage of the same IO
17:19.22CaptHindsightsame for the phones
17:19.53CaptHindsightone board with all sorts of different cases
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17:20.31CaptHindsightback in 10 min
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17:36.56CaptHindsightback
17:41.23Openbot11:11
17:41.28Openbotpm
17:48.46DocScrutinizer51http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150420_002.jpg  :D
17:50.31DocScrutinizer51'TNO' preety much looks like 'TN0' on original label :-S
17:51.14DocScrutinizer51tray number zero?
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17:52.08DocScrutinizer51timing * 0?
17:53.35DocScrutinizer51anyway, coffe break over, another few minutes of driving
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18:03.53DocScrutinizer05we don't even know what's the meaning of !-A506"
18:04.36DocScrutinizer05all we kmow is "it seems to work on back op a OMAP3 SoC"
18:04.41DocScrutinizer05of*
18:05.09DocScrutinizer05typing still impaired fron driving new bicycle
18:07.19*** join/#neo900 threebar (~user@rrcs-24-103-243-85.nyc.biz.rr.com)
18:07.26threebarhey, what ever happened to this phone?
18:07.39DocScrutinizer05sorry?
18:07.48threebarno more updates on the site
18:08.05threebaroh, lol, I'm blind
18:08.11threebarnow i see the uBlog column haha
18:08.48threebarhey, did you ever decide on whether to use that multitouch controller for resistive screens? i think i came by and suggested it about a year ago, and you actually managed to source it
18:10.23CaptHindsightkce00e00ca-a506  out of production multi chip package?
18:14.22freemangordonCaptHindsight: hmm?
18:14.40CaptHindsighthttp://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150420_002.jpg  ^^
18:14.43freemangordonyes, out of production MCP, so what? we talk about 500 of those
18:15.14DocScrutinizer05threebar: it's already in schematics :-)
18:15.29DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: yes exactly that one
18:16.08DocScrutinizer05only 1GB RAM FPGA168 PoP chip existing
18:16.17DocScrutinizer05that I was able to find
18:16.31freemangordonCaptHindsight: do you have a better idea for 1GB/512MB PoP for omap3 that is accessible in such quantities?
18:16.55DocScrutinizer05even nuke the 512MB NAND, it's not THAT important
18:17.00freemangordonyeah, sure
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18:17.31CaptHindsightwhats actually on it? 1GB of what type of DDR?
18:17.41freemangordonLP
18:17.43DocScrutinizer05LPDDR200
18:17.45freemangordon(iirc)
18:18.11DocScrutinizer05the RAM you want for OMAP3 ;-)
18:18.22CaptHindsightthey have that part number in Hong Kong
18:18.59*** part/#neo900 Openbot (~Panda@112.79.39.54)
18:19.15CaptHindsighthttp://www.hkinventory.com/p/d/KCE00E00CAA506.htm  10k pcs
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18:19.34CaptHindsightI can check around for suppliers with old stock
18:21.06freemangordon~(256*1024*1024)/4096
18:21.06infobot65536
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18:26.02DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: yeah, looks good
18:26.13CaptHindsighthow is it organized? 32M x 32 or?
18:26.39DocScrutinizer05err
18:28.08DocScrutinizer05that's a question for freemangordon
18:28.10CaptHindsightis it a 8G bit device with 168BGA?
18:28.19DocScrutinizer05yes
18:28.27CaptHindsightI can't find the data sheet so let me know
18:28.37DocScrutinizer05we neither
18:28.49DocScrutinizer05datasheet for that sucker is unobtainium
18:29.40DocScrutinizer05we made it work by basically stealing the config from Nokia N9
18:30.11bencoh:]
18:30.48DocScrutinizer05this very minute freemangordon does final tests on our pimped BB-xM board
18:31.11DocScrutinizer05to verify full 512MB of NAND on the KCE00E00CA
18:31.58DocScrutinizer05[2015-04-20 Mon 20:06:37] <freemangordon> OMAP3 Beagle board + LPDDR/NAND
18:31.59DocScrutinizer05[2015-04-20 Mon 20:06:37] <freemangordon> I2C:   ready
18:32.01DocScrutinizer05[2015-04-20 Mon 20:06:37] <freemangordon> DRAM:  1 GiB
18:32.02DocScrutinizer05[2015-04-20 Mon 20:06:37] <freemangordon> NAND:  Muxed OneNAND 512MB 1.8V 16-bit (0x50)
18:32.04DocScrutinizer05[
18:32.19DocScrutinizer05:-)))
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18:32.49freemangordonactually onenand works with default configs
18:33.02freemangordonbut I think it is better to use what n9 xloaders uses
18:33.06freemangordon*xloader
18:33.48ds2what is "works"? erase/write/erase/write/read patterns or just one of then picked randomly?
18:34.07freemangordonds2: "works" as it boots from it
18:34.35freemangordonBL loads xloader from onenad
18:34.43freemangordon*onenand
18:35.00freemangordonxloader is written to onenand by u-boot, after booting the device via serial
18:35.26freemangordonds2: onenand test reports OK at its end
18:35.44freemangordonwhat is written in onenand is read back after a power cycle
18:37.26ds2ah
18:37.32DocScrutinizer05ds2: the chip is basically already verified for OMAP3/XX3[67]30, on N9
18:37.37freemangordonds2: good enough definition? or we miss something
18:37.39ds2freemangordon: does writing xloader work from Linux?
18:37.52DocScrutinizer05we made it work on BB-xM on pour SoC. The rest is software
18:38.04ds2u-boot usually works; it is the Linux version I am pondering
18:38.05DocScrutinizer05s/pour/our/
18:38.30freemangordonds2: can't test it, as MMC iface is broken during resoldering of the PoP
18:38.49ds2Oh lovely
18:39.02ds2you can tack wires to a full size MMC socket
18:39.16freemangordonds2: linux shouldn't have problems, it is exactly the same chip as in n9.
18:39.26DocScrutinizer05eventually Nikolaus will hopefully come up with a pimped BB-xM booting into a full fledged 1GB RAM 512MB NAND linux
18:39.31freemangordonand there is DTS upstream, with the parameters for it
18:39.37ds2Linux NAND drivers always seems to have timing issues
18:39.50DocScrutinizer05not really *our* problem
18:39.52DocScrutinizer05;-)
18:39.54freemangordonds2: but this is not HW problem :)
18:40.00DocScrutinizer05:-D
18:40.01ds2oh fine
18:40.02ds2:P
18:40.20freemangordonds2: also, we have a working kernel to get the correct values if needed
18:40.26DocScrutinizer05sw patches are a penny a dozen
18:40.32freemangordonworking on n9, but still
18:40.39ds2freemangordon: don't always work like that :(
18:40.40DocScrutinizer05hw bugs are forever
18:40.57freemangordonds2: sure, but what option we have?
18:41.04ds2*nod*
18:41.16ds2if it is someone else's problem... :D
18:41.30freemangordonit will either work or I should arm the heavy weaponry and debug like mad :D
18:41.56freemangordonalso, it is not only me, hopefully
18:42.41ds2how many of these 1G LPDDR/512M NAND PoPs do you guys have?
18:43.14CaptHindsightwhere stage is the design in for the board? still in schematics?
18:44.04CaptHindsighthttp://neo900.org/stuff/eaglefiles/proto_v2/2_2014-12-21/
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18:48.58CaptHindsightif you already have boards then I'd check with the suppliers with old stock in Hong Kong/Shenzhen
18:49.29CaptHindsightif you haven't made pcb's yet then I'd look for a different device
18:50.55CaptHindsightNAND(512MB)+LPDDR2(512MB)  is the largest device Samsung currently makes K5A4G4GQCA
18:54.04DocScrutinizer05512MB RAM is basically a NOGO
18:54.14DocScrutinizer05our customers don't accept this
18:54.19CaptHindsightyeah, too little
18:54.33DocScrutinizer051GB RAM is a key feature and selling point of Neo900
18:54.48DocScrutinizer05PCB is still in prototype phase, yes
18:55.10DocScrutinizer05but SoC is already finalized, we will go for DM3730
18:56.03CaptHindsightMicron and Microsemi only have 512MB lpddr and 4Bb NAND
18:56.22DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: could you please send a shot email note to contact AT neo900.org? I'd like to have a stable contact, and also publish a sort of err 'cooperation' if you'd not mind
18:57.26DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: we checked available options for the PoP for almost one year, and all we could come up with was KCE00E00CA finally
18:57.50DocScrutinizer05and even that only after we ripped a N9 apart to see what's in there
18:57.52CaptHindsightand it's NOS = new old stock
18:58.18DocScrutinizer05s/shot/short/
19:00.13DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: any idea what means TN0 ?
19:00.24DocScrutinizer05or even -A506TN0
19:00.26CaptHindsightyou have tough one, older omap with lpddr2
19:00.38DocScrutinizer05yes, I know ;-)
19:00.42CaptHindsightit was probably custom for Nokia
19:00.46DocScrutinizer05yes
19:00.48DocScrutinizer05indeed
19:01.21DocScrutinizer05so we're extremely happy we finally found a source for a few cheips
19:01.30DocScrutinizer05chips even
19:01.49CaptHindsightthat link I posted earlier  said they had 10K pieces
19:01.52*** join/#neo900 vakkov_ (~vakkov@134.83.207.1)
19:02.01CaptHindsightmore than you'll probably use
19:02.12DocScrutinizer05yes, we seen such links that turned out to be fake
19:02.21CaptHindsightyeah, you never know
19:02.22DocScrutinizer05quite a few
19:02.34CaptHindsightthats China
19:03.18CaptHindsightand the  DM3730 was chosen since the software is already there or most of it?
19:03.48CaptHindsightwhats the problem with using a more recent omap?
19:04.41DocScrutinizer05yes, because of maemo5 - and space reasons. and GTA04 experience
19:05.05CaptHindsightyou're in a nice corner then
19:05.10DocScrutinizer05particularly the latter been a huge argument, together with the pther ones
19:05.42DocScrutinizer05initially Neo900 been considered "a slightly pimped GTA04"
19:05.49DocScrutinizer05"easy" ;-P
19:06.23DocScrutinizer05well it sorta still is, just s/slightly/heavily/
19:06.59DocScrutinizer05nice corner? or niche corner? ;-)
19:07.16CaptHindsightwhen you run out of options
19:07.51DocScrutinizer05we had just enough options to make it happen
19:07.52CaptHindsightif you can't find that MCP device then you're out of luck anyway
19:07.54DocScrutinizer05so far
19:08.14CaptHindsightor you'll have to make them
19:08.20DocScrutinizer05we found KCE00E00CA, we're just about to order 500
19:08.47CaptHindsightthrough a broker?
19:08.52DocScrutinizer05yep
19:09.50DocScrutinizer05plus I have a second option, where I today received 5 samples, see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150420_002.jpg
19:10.08CaptHindsightso 500 phones and then what? new design and new software?
19:10.26DocScrutinizer05basically yes. Though we hope for 1500
19:10.45DocScrutinizer05Neo900 is one of a kind, to show we can pull off
19:11.12DocScrutinizer05you said correctly that cases etc are (or were) only feasible for 10k+
19:11.24DocScrutinizer05same for LCD and touch panel etc
19:12.24DocScrutinizer05with 1000 Neo900 community has all the opportunity they need to learn how to port maemo5 to new hw platform. Next device OMAP5 then
19:12.35CaptHindsightwhats the problem with running maemo5 on a newer ARM SOC?
19:12.38DocScrutinizer05,aybe 2017
19:12.42DocScrutinizer05maybe*
19:12.57DocScrutinizer05the closed blobs
19:13.01DocScrutinizer05~fptf
19:13.01infobotrumour has it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308
19:13.19CaptHindsightoh great, BLOBS
19:13.24CaptHindsightfigures
19:13.37DocScrutinizer05yeah there are a few in genuine maemo5
19:13.49DocScrutinizer05lot of them already got RE'ed
19:13.55DocScrutinizer05not all though
19:14.10DocScrutinizer05Neo900 is also a project to complete this task
19:14.37DocScrutinizer05not for "us" (the hw building company Neo900 UG) but for the community
19:14.59DocScrutinizer05(BLOBS) figure PVR
19:15.27DocScrutinizer05openGL-ES2 3D iirc
19:16.01DocScrutinizer05we also have some nasty audio enhancement stuff, for calls
19:16.08Wizzupthere will never be a free driver for that gpu anyway
19:16.13Wizzup[powervr]
19:16.18DocScrutinizer05yoh
19:17.54DocScrutinizer05and don't forget about DUH! *flashplayer*
19:18.01Openbotaww powervr
19:18.18Openbotand broadcom
19:18.23Openbotnight
19:18.56WizzupDocScrutinizer51: gnash works okayish
19:19.04Wizzupprobably just as well as the installed flash on maemo
19:19.06DocScrutinizer05good to hear
19:19.28WizzupI cannot believe that people use flash on maemo, especially since it is so old
19:19.30DocScrutinizer05as I said, RE'ing is an ongoing project
19:19.35Wizzupyep
19:19.58Openbotnowadays flashplayers come with browser vendors ;- no worries
19:20.24DocScrutinizer05right now it's not at a stage where I could build a OMAP5 device with all new leet audio and whatnot peripherals and hope to run maemo5 on it, in whatever form
19:21.17DocScrutinizer05and Neo900 explicitly is made for a "drop in replacement" for N900, incl using the existing repos
19:21.29DocScrutinizer05the *binaries* in those
19:21.49WizzupYou can probably never get full compat, but it should mostly be just fine
19:22.06Wizzuppersonally I look forward to the hw itself and hopefully decent mainline kernel support
19:22.06Openbotsites like hotstar.com are inaccesible on devices not having flash or an app
19:22.17WizzupOpenbot: do I want to open that?
19:22.28CaptHindsightI'm going to build an open phone in the next few months
19:22.28DocScrutinizer05sure, as kerio trolled, kernel-power-flasher won't prolly work ;-)
19:22.30Openbotcheck
19:22.45CaptHindsightlooking over the software now
19:23.00Openbotcapthindsight maemo please
19:23.11CaptHindsightcame in here to see if there was any crossover
19:23.42DocScrutinizer05crossover between what?
19:23.48Openbotwizzup check if you can make it work in n900
19:24.00DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: ooh, and could you send that email please?
19:25.14DocScrutinizer05Openbot: what Wizzup meant is: there's stuff we don't want to open on our regular x86 PCs even
19:25.35Openbotoh
19:25.46DocScrutinizer05horstar.com pretty much sounds like one of those sites
19:26.27CaptHindsightI'll look over Maemo again, we ran it on a n900 at some pint
19:26.29jonsgermozilla build a flashplayer in JS (as Firefox Add-On) named shumway
19:26.29Openbotmisspelt its hotstar.com
19:27.23WizzupDocScrutinizer51: exactly
19:27.31Openbotone can stream tv shows through it
19:27.45Openbotby star network
19:28.03WizzupOpenbot: my point was that you don't want to use that on a phone I think
19:28.12Wizzupand if you want to, use some combination of youtube-dl and mplayer
19:29.02Openbotwizzup n900 dosent have an app for it so if the site worked
19:29.15WizzupAre you missing the point, or?
19:29.31Openbotwizzup how that works ?
19:29.32Wizzupeven if you had flash 11, I'd still be mostly unusable, kill your battery in an hour, etc.
19:29.40Wizzupit'd*
19:29.41Wizzup(not I'd)
19:29.54Openbot:D
19:30.31Openbotat least it would work
19:30.48DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: anyway you're more than welcome to stay in this channel (ignore occasional noise please ;-D)
19:31.17WizzupOpenbot: no, it wouldn't work, everyone would suffer
19:31.19Wizzup;)
19:31.24Wizzupyeah I'll stop going OT
19:31.49Openbotmee too :D
19:31.51CaptHindsightdid you ever have any patent problems with the earlier phones?
19:31.58CaptHindsightany threats from trolls?
19:32.26Openbottrolls ?
19:32.44CaptHindsightpatent trolls
19:32.51DocScrutinizer05yes, in OM we had
19:32.56Openbotah
19:33.02CaptHindsightholders of patents on cell phones and applications
19:33.12CaptHindsightthat don't actually make phones
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19:33.34Openbotkabouik_  :D
19:33.39DocScrutinizer05no, silly MP3 trolls iirc
19:34.16DocScrutinizer05certified patent troll company. I don't know details, ask wpwrak
19:35.00DocScrutinizer05it was about the age old BS with not being allowed to provide some codecs or whatever in OM repos
19:35.15Openbotis asleep as dead
19:35.21DocScrutinizer05since I was EE it wasn't my domain
19:36.06DocScrutinizer05Sean and Wolfgang and the sw guys handled it
19:36.20DocScrutinizer05iirc
19:36.43DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: any details? ^^^ patent trolls extorting OM
19:37.13DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: you got RYF cert? your laptop doesn't ship with WLAN?
19:37.31DocScrutinizer05glares at "RYF"
19:37.57DocScrutinizer05one of my favorite topics to vent about
19:38.03DocScrutinizer05;-)
19:38.22DocScrutinizer05FSF is not even qualified to cert HARDWARE
19:38.30DocScrutinizer05not even by name of entity
19:39.03SylvieLorxuAre you certified to make hardware? ;)
19:39.29DocScrutinizer05whatever, we decided we can't get RYF cert, ever. Since we're not willing to lock down our modem so it can't get firmware-updated
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19:40.30DocScrutinizer05SylvieLorxu: sorry no offense but my view on the whole issue as EE is slightly different to RMS'
19:40.42CaptHindsightwhy Maemo vs MeeGo?
19:40.54SylvieLorxuDocScrutinizer05: I was just joking around. I agree RYF isn't perfect, though
19:40.59DocScrutinizer05hmm? never heard of such schism
19:41.17CaptHindsightI thought MeeGo was the latest version of Maemo
19:41.20DocScrutinizer05it's prolly perfect for an abstract idea
19:41.24CaptHindsightI have some reading to do
19:41.27DocScrutinizer05like "utopia"
19:42.11freemangordonCaptHindsight: not exactly, meego is Qt based, Maemo is GTK
19:42.21DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: meego basically been binned when Nokia and err Intel(?) disagreed on further path
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19:42.30freemangordonsimplistic view, but still
19:42.56DocScrutinizer05Nokia then published an OS they called "meego" on N9, but actually it been maemo6
19:43.21CaptHindsightMeeGo --> Tizen  Mer, and Sailfish
19:43.34DocScrutinizer05sort of, yes
19:43.36CaptHindsightyikes
19:43.52CaptHindsightbeen reading about Tizen devices
19:45.35DocScrutinizer05sailfish is as non-open as maemo
19:45.57DocScrutinizer05open kernel, partially open middleware, closed core apps
19:46.02DocScrutinizer05aiui
19:46.12CaptHindsightandroid-ish
19:46.36DocScrutinizer05check out mer/nemo
19:46.39merlin1991well sailfish is more like the n9 meego than maemo
19:46.42DocScrutinizer05should be better
19:47.00merlin1991for example the hildon-desktop equivalent is closed in both cases
19:47.02SylvieLorxuSailfish is slightly worse than Android from what I've seen
19:47.12DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: ouch, that's nasty
19:47.27CaptHindsightwhat blobs are required with Maemo?
19:47.45DocScrutinizer05well, Neo900 recommends maemo5-fptf
19:47.46CaptHindsightwhat hardware needs the BLOB's?
19:48.20Wizzuphw side probably not too much, but maemo has quite some other blob
19:48.21Wizzups
19:48.25merlin1991what was it graphics dsp and camera?
19:48.35DocScrutinizer05(blobs in maemo5) we got the GPU stuff and some audio - plus some middleware that's nastily undocumented and closed
19:48.37merlin1991on the hw side
19:48.38Wizzupsome audio stuff
19:48.44Wizzupah, hw
19:48.49DocScrutinizer05ooh and camera, yes
19:48.55freemangordonmerlin1991: camera doesn;t actually need blobs
19:49.27DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: but it profits a lot from the closed blobs
19:49.38freemangordonsure
19:49.47DocScrutinizer05basically camera without the cam manuf blobs is crap
19:49.56freemangordon:nod:
19:50.23DocScrutinizer05almost useless
19:50.26CaptHindsighthttp://wiki.maemo.org/Porting/Closed_Packages
19:50.33DocScrutinizer05~closed
19:50.41DocScrutinizer05grrr
19:50.46DocScrutinizer05~#maemo closed
19:50.46infobot#maemo closed is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages, or http://elinux.org/N900
19:51.26DocScrutinizer05~+chanset #neo900
19:51.26infobotchan: #neo900 (see _default also)
19:51.26infobot<PROTECTED>
19:52.34merlin1991I never looked into it, does fcam depend on closed blobs?
19:52.35DocScrutinizer05~+chanset #neo900 factoidSearch $chan #maemo _default
19:52.35infobotSetting factoidSearch for #neo900 to '$chan #maemo _default'; was '$chan _default'.
19:52.45DocScrutinizer05~closed
19:52.45infobothmm... closed is http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages, or http://elinux.org/N900
19:53.04DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: no idea
19:53.14CaptHindsightnow you know why I try to avoid working on software
19:54.18DocScrutinizer05:-)
19:54.29DocScrutinizer05sorry afk, dinner is calling
19:55.54DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: would you mind me mentioning a planned cooperation between Neo900 and http://openlunchbox.com/ on talk.maemo.org?
19:56.45CaptHindsightno problem
19:56.51merlin1991actually if fcam works wihtout blobs it might be worth the trouble to fix the outstanding bugs
19:57.02DocScrutinizer05in the form of " CaptHindsight offered help with building cases and other mech parts in low volumes..."
19:57.35DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: full ACK
19:57.47CaptHindsightmaybe I can test the waters by making something with a newer SOC that works with Maemo as a dev platform
19:58.01DocScrutinizer05that nasty LP5523 bug oughta get fixed anyway
19:58.24DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: sounds great
19:59.01DocScrutinizer05re patent trolls we are on safe side since we use a modem module from Cinterion/Gemalto
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19:59.47CaptHindsightI have a partially working n900. What version of Maemo will work on it?
20:00.00merlin1991pr1.3 + cssu ;)
20:00.12DocScrutinizer05that thing is pre-approved and should alrwady have the needed permissions for whatever patents they use
20:00.16CaptHindsightthe hardware is fine, it just needs a new install
20:00.31DocScrutinizer05~cssu
20:00.31infobot[cssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)
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20:02.05CaptHindsightwe can even machine some new magnesium cases
20:02.25DocScrutinizer05:-D
20:02.35DocScrutinizer05can you also build new slider mech?
20:02.35CaptHindsightI make machines for a large silicon valley fruit company  :)
20:03.08DocScrutinizer05it's anasty contraption of cheap steel and plastic
20:03.25CaptHindsightno problem
20:03.30DocScrutinizer05with some springs and stuff
20:03.37DocScrutinizer05great!
20:03.48CaptHindsightsimilar to the droids
20:04.10DocScrutinizer05so you're already my plan-B when we actually need to build more than 500 complete devices in 6 months
20:04.11CaptHindsightthey would get all bent up over time and start to jam
20:04.48DocScrutinizer05I'm about to secure ~500 refurbished N900 for all the mech parts, LCD, touchpanels etc
20:05.12CaptHindsighthope you get enough good ones
20:05.42DocScrutinizer05we can source a maybe 500, but prolly no 1500
20:06.25DocScrutinizer05so when we finally trip the 1k line, we will need to build our own mech parts, and digitizers, and find LCD that match
20:06.49CaptHindsightI had a real hard time finding new in the box n900 2 years ago in China
20:06.58DocScrutinizer05no dice
20:07.05DocScrutinizer05only refurbished ones available
20:07.26DocScrutinizer05anyway, time for dinner. bbl
20:07.47DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: thanks again, much appreciated
20:07.53CaptHindsightno problem
20:09.44CaptHindsightanyone know if the screen res can easily be increased in Maemo?
20:10.04CaptHindsightres beyond the n900 res
20:10.27CaptHindsight<PROTECTED>
20:10.37DocScrutinizer05tricky. Try in xephyr
20:11.01DocScrutinizer05o/
20:11.35merlin1991hildon-desktop has some hardcoded values regarding that
20:11.45merlin1991you'll have to build the cordia version which is resolution independend
20:11.56CaptHindsightinteresting
20:13.16freemangordonactually it is not that hard, a couple of #defines need to be tweaked
20:14.11CaptHindsightso I could make a phone with a larger display
20:14.25freemangordonsure
20:14.53CaptHindsightsmall enough for your pocket, 6" bit with a real keyboard
20:15.01CaptHindsightbit/but
20:24.13wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (patent troll) that was sisvel (in .it), philip's (and other's) front for cashing in on mp3. they went against openmoko (in .tw), via reseller pulster (in .de)
20:25.25wpwrakit was really a big mistake by OM: we shipped the device preloaded with all the goodies that contained MP3 codecs, even though mp3 was well known to have issues at that time
20:26.24wpwrakbut it proves that being small and nonprofitable doesn't save you from the kind of attack. at least we didn't get any of the smaller trolls, the ones you'll never see before they attack
20:31.28DocScrutinizer51wpwrak: ta
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20:42.04freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: http://pastebin.com/qhfmnkrU
20:42.07freemangordon:)
20:44.57DocScrutinizer51freemangordon: great
20:45.36freemangordonI guess I should stop playing with that, at least for a while :)
20:45.54freemangordonwill send it to the ML though
20:46.47DocScrutinizer51incl binaries,tools, and src please
20:48.05freemangordonbins and tools are on europe, for src... I'll ask Nik how to handle that, as my patch is a little hacky :)
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21:28.12DocScrutinizer51s/europe/Europa/  name of a moon
21:30.16DocScrutinizer51http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)
21:31.15DocScrutinizer51all my infra (except Neo900 server) has names of celestial objects
21:35.50freemangordonoh :)
21:44.03DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: master of git, you might want to scp from europa to neo900
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22:08.51wpwrakfreemangordon: are the tools etc. there stuff we could show in public ? i.e., in a public git repo ?
22:10.04DocScrutinizer05I guess yes, pretty much
22:10.07memfrobHello all, I'm watching the youtube video for installing CSSU and you need to use Maemo in order to install it, but my n900 reboots all the time and sometimes even loops to where it's hardly usable (hence why I put mer on)
22:10.24memfrobI'm interested in the neo900 project and would like to get started however.
22:11.13wpwrakdos1: if you could do the honors then, and create a new repo on http://neo900.org/git/ ?
22:13.44memfrobI've done research on the reboot loop and the only advice really is to have nokia service it or re-flash with maemo and mess with watchdog / dev mode (which i did countless times)
22:17.21CaptHindsightmemfrob: try #maemo as well
22:19.15DocScrutinizer05memfrob: bootloops regularly need reflash
22:19.24DocScrutinizer05~flashing
22:19.25infobotmaemo-flashing is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh
22:20.54DocScrutinizer05NB this erases your "media content" too
22:21.19DocScrutinizer05iirc
22:22.00DocScrutinizer05when you need to recover/backup any photos or whatever and device doesn't boot at all, try
22:22.06DocScrutinizer05~rescueos
22:22.06infobotit has been said that rescueos is http://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/
22:24.02specingHas anyone thought about making a phone around an AMD G-series SoC? It has radeon graphics, SATA, ...
22:24.42DocScrutinizer05not in scope of Neo900 project
22:25.44DocScrutinizer05http://neo900.org/faq#cpu
22:25.48memfrobthank you i'll give the flash-it-all.sh script a shot, using the maemo firmware and flash tools never helped.
22:26.34specingDocScrutinizer05: yes I know, I just *had* to ask ;p
22:26.59DocScrutinizer05memfrob: please let me know if my flash-it-all.sh worked for you
22:27.29specingDocScrutinizer05: but from the software point of view, an x86 should be much easier to get going
22:28.45DocScrutinizer05well, I haven't seen a single laptop with x86 so far that could do more than 24h standby with screen dimmed
22:28.50DocScrutinizer05from battery
22:29.20DocScrutinizer05N(eo)900 does 1 week, easily
22:31.14DocScrutinizer05and no, I*m not talking about suspend-to-whatever, real active standby, with response times in the milliseconds range to any event
22:36.36specingthat is true
22:38.33specingas usual, trade-offs everywhere.
22:39.53DocScrutinizer05actually for bringing up the hw platform the CPU ISA and architecture is mostly irrelevant
22:40.32DocScrutinizer05basically same applies for arbitrary apps
22:41.25DocScrutinizer05kernel and core libs and device drivers are quite a bit dependant on architecture, but ARM is well supported
22:42.37DocScrutinizer05x86 doesn't give you any head start there either
22:43.08DocScrutinizer05DTs for ARM are a tad behind of x86
22:43.39specingARM gives me a headache all the time
22:44.02DocScrutinizer05assembler programmer?
22:44.21WizzupDocScrutinizer05: then he should have said: x86
22:44.24specingall of the devices I've had required custom-patching some old Linux
22:44.26DocScrutinizer05hehe
22:44.47specingand then userspace massaging
22:45.02Wizzupspecing: not my experience
22:45.22DocScrutinizer05debian prolly works on N900 OOTB
22:45.26Wizzupsheevaplug, most sunxi stuff (olimex, cubieboard), chromebooks all work with mainline
22:45.34WizzupDocScrutinizer05: debian kernel? doubt it :)
22:45.47DocScrutinizer05why?
22:45.51specingI was "actively" working with ARMs about 3-4 years ago
22:46.18specingback then sunxi was stuck on 3.0.something with a 3.4 update being worked on
22:46.35DocScrutinizer05ooh, well the newest leetest kernel prolly won't work on N900 yet
22:47.10DocScrutinizer05you'd need one that's pre-DT I guess
22:47.18DocScrutinizer05and ideally a PM kernel
22:47.25enycwonders where to ask about mains-lighting-electronics ballasts etc. in IRC
22:47.29specingno I'm tryinh to bring up this AT91SAM9260 board for the purposes of SPI flashing and the old kernel BUGs trying to update Arch on the sd card and the new kernel does not give me a console, at all
22:47.35specingnow*
22:47.54specingenyc: #electronics
22:49.54DocScrutinizer05(newest kernel) ask freemangordon :-)
22:57.09memfrobspecing: a lot of sunxi peripherals and such have been hitting mainline, the core part of the boards have been in for awhile though. AHCI, USB, etc. I believe its all upstream, wired ethernet I'm not sure.
22:58.02memfrobI tinkered a lot with a cubie2 back when 3.4 was the only way to really use it.
22:58.32Wizzupruns grsec/mainline on cubie2's
22:59.45memfrobi used it for RTOS (preempt-rt)
22:59.49DocScrutinizer51I guess this starts to cross the sideline of road now, and enters OT land
23:02.08memfrobsorry.
23:02.21DocScrutinizer51np ?)
23:02.33DocScrutinizer51:)
23:03.23bencohDocScrutinizer51: newest leetest kernels arent on debian ;p
23:03.45bencohthey're probably still stuck with a pre-DT
23:04.37DocScrutinizer51possible, I'm not following what they do
23:04.56*** join/#neo900 vakkov (~vakkov@134.83.207.1)
23:24.15DocScrutinizer05CaptHindsight: http://wstaw.org/m/2015/04/21/plasma-desktopkM1950.png  from http://openlunchbox.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0
23:24.35DocScrutinizer05meh, prolly should have posted in _your_ IRC channel ;-)
23:27.33*** join/#neo900 Kabouik__ (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net)
23:27.38*** join/#neo900 Kabouik___ (~quassel@65.76.93.92.rev.sfr.net)
23:34.09OksanaHow is it going with finger-stylus detection at resistive touchscreen?
23:46.33DocScrutinizer05Oksana: I guess that's easily accomplished once the multitouch works as supposed to. Actually even N900 sort of does it already
23:49.38Oksana:?

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