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| 08:13.39 | onla | is jolla phone as open as n900, or is there something closed in jolla? Say, you could install another OS there, if you don't like that sailfish or what was it |
| 08:13.53 | onla | and chips and |
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| 08:26.20 | edwin | hi, does PLS8-EU support packet voice (VoLTE)? (I don't know if thats a feature of the modem or up to the OS) |
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| 12:07.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | jolla is way more closed in my book than N900 |
| 12:08.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: yes, all PLS8 are ready for VoLTE |
| 12:09.38 | edwin | good, thats what I ordered in the shop. How about handoff between LTE and UMTS/GSM during a call? if the mobile operator supports it can neo900 too? |
| 12:10.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry wait, I'm not sure I'm right |
| 12:10.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway VoLTE _could_ get implemented on software level in application processor too |
| 12:11.50 | edwin | vodafone says Samsung GALAXY S5, Sony Xperia Z2 si Huawei Ascend P7 is compatible with their LTE network, and that if you initiate a call on LTE to a 3G/GSM phone that'll work, and if you loose LTE connectivity it should switch to 3G/GSM without dropping the ongoing call |
| 12:12.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | checking http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PLS8_web.pdf |
| 12:12.09 | edwin | not sure how well that works in practice :) |
| 12:12.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought I seen "ready for VoLTE" |
| 12:13.09 | edwin | "Voice Support for LTE via CSFB (circuit-switched fallback)" - is that just regular 3G/GSM and LTE for data? |
| 12:13.16 | edwin | err I mean 3G/GSM for voice |
| 12:13.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically yes |
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| 12:14.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the commonly used voice call method on LTE today, since VoLTE is very complicated to implement |
| 12:14.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | on carrier side |
| 12:15.12 | edwin | yeah I'm on orange and they don't support it yet, just vodafone supports it |
| 12:15.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway basically VoLTE is SIP-alike VoIP |
| 12:16.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | can get done in "softphone" |
| 12:16.28 | edwin | that'd be good, how you do the handoff in that case though? |
| 12:16.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless I could bet I seen "ready for VoLTE" |
| 12:16.45 | edwin | maybe there's a more detailed datasheet on programming the PLS8? |
| 12:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | no handoff needed, you use the same call service via different data suppliers |
| 12:17.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what makes it so complicated |
| 12:17.47 | edwin | I see |
| 12:20.58 | edwin | maybe I should switch to the world-wide UMTS PHS modem instead for Neo900, and get the PLS8-equivalent for Neo900 "generation 2" |
| 12:21.35 | edwin | DocScrutinizer05: till when can I switch modems in the shop? |
| 12:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | till final order |
| 12:23.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't worry |
| 12:23.33 | edwin | ah ok, maybe in the meantime you'll actually get one of the chips to test from gemalto and see what they can do |
| 12:23.50 | edwin | I wouldn't mind LTE + software VoLTE either, sounds like an interesting project |
| 12:24.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | though... I can't tell for sure. Nikolaus told me he wants to order Neo900 modems together with the Pyro modems, via GC. So it's still a tad unclear when the modems will get ordered |
| 12:25.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | give me an hour or two, I'm still absolutely sure I seen "ready for VoLTE" |
| 12:25.32 | edwin | sure, no hurry |
| 12:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw CSFB should be supported no matter if the network has VoLTE or not |
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| 12:28.34 | edwin | btw datasheets lists: Penta Band LTE: 800/900/1800/2100/2600 MHz; FDD-Band (20,8,3,7,1) but http://neo900.org/faq#networks doesn't show band 1 (not that it matters for me, I need 1800 for LTE) |
| 12:28.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's basically the "if you loose LTE connectivity it should switch to 3G/GSM without dropping the ongoing call" case |
| 12:30.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, did they change that too? |
| 12:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | (bands) |
| 12:31.09 | edwin | looks like its one extra band vs the neo900 site |
| 12:31.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, good spotting. Thanks |
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| 12:33.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | the fun of >>... which may change as a result of further development of the products.<< |
| 12:34.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | and >> PRELIMINARY VERSION<< |
| 12:37.40 | edwin | https://developer.gemalto.com/threads/pls8-documentation-mismatch apparently there are 2 revisions of pls8 |
| 12:39.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | WTH!?! >>> 2 UICC (SIM/MIM) interfaces 1.8V / 3V<<< |
| 12:42.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: many thanks! good spotting again |
| 12:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | so, you now know more than I do ;-) |
| 12:44.46 | edwin | I just googled :) |
| 12:44.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's probably safe to assume that Gemalto won't build a PLS8 that can't get used for LTE phonecalls in the targeted continent/zone |
| 12:45.12 | edwin | is there any way for you to find out if those PLS8/PHS8 are really still pin-compatible, and that you will get the right revision of PLS8? |
| 12:45.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | the pin compatibility is P*S8 major selling point, it will be warranted |
| 12:46.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | the engineers at Gemalto/Siemens are no complete idiots (usually) :-D |
| 12:47.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | they want to sell their stuff and they drafted a strategy for all P*S8 |
| 12:47.39 | edwin | how about the docs, will they ship some technical docs on how to interface/program it, or you have to rely on their website? |
| 12:47.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I find it particularly intriguing that PLS8 now comes with >>> 2 UICC (SIM/MIM) interfaces 1.8V / 3V<<< I.E. DualSIM |
| 12:48.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | the docs are "freely" available |
| 12:48.31 | edwin | apparently out of date though |
| 12:48.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, >>... which may change as a result of further development of the products.<< and >> PRELIMINARY VERSION<< |
| 12:49.02 | edwin | "The document in the knowledge base is for PLS8 release 1 which does not have these features. The data sheet describes the new release 2.1" |
| 12:50.14 | edwin | anyway lets wait and see, for now I'll leave the LTE in the preorder |
| 12:51.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, don't worry. Your choice isn't binding yet |
| 12:52.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/industrial-plus/lga/pls8.html has "LTE Voice support" |
| 12:54.58 | edwin | hmm I don't see the dualsim thing on PHS8 though , it says just 'UICC and U/SIM card interface 1.8 V and 3 V'. would you still support dualsim in neo900 and leave 2nd slot empty, or just have one SIM regardless of modem? |
| 12:57.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | PHS8 has no DualSIM |
| 12:58.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | the Neo900 DualSIM support is independant of modem, by multiplexer (switch) |
| 12:58.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | we add it ourselves |
| 12:58.58 | edwin | ah and you'd still need something between the modem and SIM to control the power even if modem supports dualsim directly, no? |
| 13:00.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that detail now needs thorough review do make provisions for PLS8 dual SIM interfaces |
| 13:01.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | we will need a cross-switch to swap SIM1 and SIM2 now, 2in-2out |
| 13:01.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | on PHS8 the 2nd IN will end on RFI pins aiui |
| 13:02.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy, once in a lifetime a nice surprise |
| 13:03.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:03.50 | edwin | they should have a git repo or rss feed of that stuff :) |
| 13:04.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 13:05.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | many thanks for bringing this up, we usually don't check for changes THAT indeep and frequently |
| 13:05.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Gemalto doesn't even plublish decent "changelogs" when they for example add band1 to their product specs |
| 13:09.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | when I google, I google for https://www.google.de/search?q=PLS8-E_HD_v01 and https://www.google.de/search?q=PLS8-E_HD_v02 |
| 13:09.37 | edwin | yw, there are some more differences between PLS8 and PHS8 in that datasheet, perhaps you could have a look |
| 13:09.57 | edwin | something about antennas: 2 pads for WAN Diversity-Antennas>1 pad for an active GPS Antenna vs Pads for primary, secondary Antenna and GNSS |
| 13:10.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, PLS8 has MIMO |
| 13:10.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | known |
| 13:10.58 | modem | DocScrutinizer05, hello |
| 13:11.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi |
| 13:11.12 | modem | DocScrutinizer05, i have started working on a project for the Neo900 |
| 13:11.20 | modem | we discussed it by the past year |
| 13:11.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:11.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I remember |
| 13:11.35 | modem | it's some C code to implement a modem |
| 13:11.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | you were the data over GSM-encoder guy |
| 13:11.56 | modem | and eventually a crypted communication channel ? Will need some bandwitch testing |
| 13:11.57 | modem | yeah :) |
| 13:12.33 | modem | i plane to offers you the source code and you could build an apps over it |
| 13:12.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 UG has no sw department |
| 13:12.50 | modem | (basically i don't have graphic skills) |
| 13:13.14 | modem | DocScrutinizer05, ah but it's not a problem, i hope you could somehow test the program on the CLI |
| 13:13.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | please contact maemo community, or simply ask around in here for interested developers to join your project |
| 13:13.25 | modem | let me know what bandwitch do you obtains, stuff like that |
| 13:13.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1 could help for sure |
| 13:13.54 | modem | i am willing to know the API to hook up the microphone |
| 13:14.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | he has a PHS8 proto and already did voice calls |
| 13:14.08 | modem | this doesn't exist on others phone, and all my devs are done on .WAV file |
| 13:14.34 | modem | yea |
| 13:14.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | though... our protos have no PCM audio yet |
| 13:14.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-/ |
| 13:14.49 | modem | ok! |
| 13:14.53 | modem | not a big deal |
| 13:15.12 | modem | as i might not have it ready just as quick as i intended |
| 13:16.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the GSM encoder is standard, you don't need hw bandwidth tests, it's perfectly possible to emulate the whole audio chain in software, with a FOSS GSM encoder |
| 13:17.44 | modem | ah mm |
| 13:17.48 | bencoh | see libgsm for gsm6.10/8khz for instance |
| 13:18.04 | modem | no surprise on real world carrier ? |
| 13:18.42 | bencoh | there aren't many foss gsm encoder though, and the only one I know of (libgsm) has support for 8khz only ("real" "gsm/6.10") |
| 13:18.51 | modem | i mean there is also the bit flip, data loss that need to get emulated (easily done in SW) |
| 13:20.00 | modem | thanks you bencoh , noted that |
| 13:20.11 | modem | i will at some point try to pass data over it |
| 13:20.53 | bencoh | you can check amrnb/amrwb for AMR support |
| 13:25.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem: on a second thought you as well can connect arbitrary cellphone headset jack to your PC's soundcard with an adapter cable and test the bandwidth this way |
| 13:26.38 | modem | yes that might work |
| 13:26.48 | modem | i was thinking confuring my station as a bluetooth headset |
| 13:26.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | odds are you maybe got some additional noise filters and/or equalization in headset audio setup, but your concept should compensate resp take into account any such bandwidth limiting factors anyway, right? |
| 13:26.52 | modem | configuring* |
| 13:27.06 | modem | DocScrutinizer05, yeah sure |
| 13:27.36 | modem | btw i am implementing this algo : http://www.news.cs.nyu.edu/~jinyang/pub/hermes.pdf |
| 13:28.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | BT is a tad ... unfortunate since HSP(?) is a very poor data rate |
| 13:28.11 | bencoh | poor ? |
| 13:28.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, hsp has a limited datarate |
| 13:28.45 | bencoh | how poor compared to gsm/halfrate ? :) |
| 13:28.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | it might introduce bandwidth limitations not caused by GSM codec |
| 13:29.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: it's on top of, not worst-rules |
| 13:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I'd recommend wired headset connection, not BT |
| 13:30.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | for lab testbeds |
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| 13:32.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | BT headset is really nasty, it often has dedicated PCM output directly to modem which you don't know much about the hw implementation |
| 13:33.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | or it doesn't and you need to take into account any application processor issues (in BueZ or whatever) |
| 13:33.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | then the BT chipset itself and the BT OTA protocol add variables to consider, on top |
| 13:34.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | and on PC side it might be astonishingly cumbersome to feed any audio other than A2DP to BT |
| 13:35.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | A2DP has its own issues, but generally isn't compatible to voice calls |
| 13:37.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: I'm still not on C0 (aka fully awake), could you help me out? did you see any PLS8 docs newer than pls8-e_hd_v01000a_tcm216-155302.pdf ? |
| 13:39.57 | edwin | nope, thats the one that is out of date vs the datasheet, couldn't find the v2 or v2.1 |
| 13:40.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: same here :-/ |
| 13:41.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're aware (and always been) that the PLS8 docs we have are preliminary and neither complete nor up to date |
| 13:41.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. they don't explain USB suspend mode |
| 13:42.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | but the modem for sure must have similar suspend mode to PHS8, or it would be... worthless. And there's no obvious reason (except documentation flaws) why it doesn't list USB suspend in PLS8_HD |
| 13:43.43 | modem | i will let you know on the progress :) ttyl ! |
| 13:43.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nikolaus yesterday mentioned he tested (and even firmware updated) a PLS8 |
| 13:44.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem: yw! ta! |
| 13:44.27 | edwin | is v2 or v2.1 released though? here it says in dec 2014 that no https://developer.gemalto.com/threads/pls8-documentation-mismatch, but here someone is testing 2.1 https://developer.gemalto.com/threads/pls8-e-cmti-notification-serial-interface |
| 13:44.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I guess this is a topic to 2escalate" to GDC/Nikolaus |
| 13:45.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | V2.011 ! |
| 13:46.01 | edwin | https://developer.gemalto.com/groups/cellular-hardware anyway search for pls8 there, thats all I know about it |
| 13:46.08 | edwin | info is very scarce |
| 13:46.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 13:47.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | LTE modem modules are still not really common state of the art. Still very cutting edge |
| 13:47.24 | edwin | hopefully you'll get the latest revision when you order it though |
| 13:48.02 | dos1 | we can ask Nikolaus which version he already got tested for Pyra. I suppose it's already V2 |
| 13:48.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure we'll get latest version :-) Nikolaus knows the engineers of Gemalto by beer&pub |
| 13:48.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I assume he tested v2 |
| 13:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi dos1 :-) |
| 13:48.44 | dos1 | hello :) |
| 13:48.56 | dos1 | nice finding, edwin. I see UART is back |
| 13:49.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw he also mentioned the GPS in PLS8 is great, better than what he used before |
| 13:49.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 13:49.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that's also great! |
| 13:49.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | not so for Pyra when they neglected it :-/ |
| 13:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it re-introduces the deadlock problem for them |
| 13:50.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | I gave evildragon a headsup already |
| 13:50.56 | edwin | i've been testing the gps in a galaxy tab 3, and after a while it just looses the gps signal way too often. rebooting helps a bit , but quite annoying if you get the signal back only after you passed the intersection where you were supposed to make a turn |
| 13:51.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | which chipset? |
| 13:51.44 | edwin | sm-t210, but don't know about the gps |
| 13:51.51 | bencoh | deadlock problem ? |
| 13:52.14 | edwin | it doesn't seem to support xtradata well either, so probably not the one you have in gemalto |
| 13:52.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: "funny": switch AT interface to serial: AT+BLABLA2. Then how to switch it back? |
| 13:52.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's persistent even across battery removal |
| 13:53.01 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: isn't there an escape sequence or flow control or something ? |
| 13:53.08 | edwin | marvell pxa986, gps 88L1000 |
| 13:53.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | flow control is via AT |
| 13:53.27 | bencoh | no hw xon/xoff ? |
| 13:53.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | edwin: thanks! not our chipset for sure |
| 13:53.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: that doesn't help |
| 13:54.04 | bencoh | hmkay |
| 13:54.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | when the AT interpreter is not available on an interface, you can't send AT commands to make it available again |
| 13:56.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-06-10 Wed 14:11:43] <DocScrutinizer05> EvilDragon: for PHS8 watch out about AT^SDPORT=<mode>, it's persistent and could switch the interpreter to UART |
| 13:56.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-06-10 Wed 14:12:25] <DocScrutinizer05> when you have no way to talk to PHS8 via UART, you don't want to allow that situation |
| 13:58.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-06-10 Wed 14:21:08] <DocScrutinizer05> it's marked "(NV)" and no reset available to restore another mode than 2 via USB or signal/pin or power cycling |
| 13:58.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-06-10 Wed 14:22:34] <DocScrutinizer05> worst case you need a filter in driver software to block AT^SDPORT=2 |
| 13:58.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2015-06-10 Wed 14:23:48] <DocScrutinizer05> also you want debug/test points on ASC0 (aka UART) then |
| 14:00.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | back when I still assumed PLS8 has no UART so this problem wouldn't apply to it, only to PHS8. Now we learn UART is back in PLS8 which is a good thing for Neo900 but possibly even worse for Pyra |
| 14:01.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | and all Pyra problems increase the workload on Nikolaus and thus delay the Neo900 development :-(( |
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| 17:58.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | 30.06.2015, 23:59:60 |
| 17:59.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-)) |
| 17:59.20 | Humpelstilzchen | doomsday? |
| 17:59.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | watch seconds |
| 18:00.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | so yes, maybe doomsday for some apps/systems |
| 18:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | dooms-second |
| 18:00.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | schaltsekunde |
| 18:01.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hums "let's do the time warp agaaaaaaiiiin" |
| 18:02.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg-vgGuTD8A |
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| 20:00.29 | bencoh | doomsday is somewhere around 2038 ;) |
| 20:01.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's yet another doomsday, yes |
| 20:01.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | the mega time warp |
| 20:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | this one is only a tiny glitch in time monotony |
| 20:02.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | still it seemingly has potential to kill apps |
| 20:03.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't ask me for details, I don't know any |
| 20:04.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | allegedly last time(?) 2012 some java stuff locked up |
| 20:06.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | per definitionem systime has to be strictly monotone |
| 20:07.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | skew ahead is not that bad yet. Skew back however... |
| 20:08.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/skew/skip/ |
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| 20:56.27 | edwin | during one of the leap seconds there was a kernel bug that caused (some?) of your cores to be stuck on 100% cpu usage |
| 20:56.48 | edwin | apparently that was noticable enough in terms of power consumption in some data centers that they had to start another generator to keep up |
| 20:57.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | ouch |
| 20:57.36 | edwin | which is why google doesn't do the leap second step, they slightly slow down the clock prior to the leap second, and then speed it up |
| 20:58.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's how timeadjust works |
| 20:59.34 | edwin | http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Leap-second-Linux-can-freeze-1629805.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4194159 |
| 21:00.34 | edwin | http://i.imgur.com/hsUDE.png <-- watts |
| 21:09.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | hihi |
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| 23:34.10 | Oksana | DualSIM: Does that mean two SIMs active at the same time? That makes PLS8 particularly interesting... (thorough review to make provisions for PLS8 dual SIM interfaces) Yes, that would be nice... |
| 23:35.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | Oksana: there's no decent doc available for PLS8 yet |
| 23:35.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the version2 PLs8 |
| 23:37.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we can't know. But dual interface for UICC/SIM probably means they are considering DSDS |
| 23:39.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | feels slightly pissed that the answer to the question "are there any pads on PHS8 that might be used as 2nd SIM interface in later P*S8 models?" was "why do you want dual SIM, it's useless nowadays" |
| 23:39.55 | Oksana | Dual standby? both SIMs to be accessed through time multiplexing? |
| 23:40.20 | Oksana | Why would they be useless? |
| 23:40.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | Gemalto said the trend is towards single secure element and provisioning OTA |
| 23:41.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | OWTTE |
| 23:44.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | that however works only with carriers who support this - obviously. And it will take a loooong time till all carriers worldwide have adopted OTA provisioning |
| 23:44.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly never |
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